Why Xykon "could" be more powerful than one or more of souls in the splice

[GSFB]

Now, I am not suggesting Xykon is a higher level caster than any of the three souls. That is up for debate in other threads. But I will posit that he COULD be more powerful than one of them - maybe than two of them (individually, that is) - but probably not than any of the three.

The IFCC claimed to offer V the power of the most powerful souls they had in the lower planes, as in, the most powerful evil casters of all time throughout history.

Well... that is almost accurate, except there is the one problem that the fiends would only have access to souls IN THE LOWER PLANES. Any undead evil caster, such as Xykon, is not currently available to them.

Thus, it is possible that Xykon could top those spliced in.

I will say, however, based on the Familicide spell, that Haerta (spelling?) probably had Xykon beat by... a LOT. I am guessing that had she still been part of the splice, enhanced-V would have wiped out Xykon. Especially as Haerta, being an epic NECROMANCER, probably had epic spells for the sole purpose of controlling or destroying the undead.

So I will conclude with the notion that Xykon could be more powerful than, say, two of the three souls from the splice.

That is all.

[Charles Phipps]

As a general note, I think the Order of the Stick cosmology is presumably like the rest of the D&D Cosmology in that there's Alternate Hells for every Alternate Reality. Thus, the Nine Hells and Abyss wouldn't have access to the Nine Hells and Abyss of the Forgotten Realms. Only the Order of the Stick's reality.

In which context, Xykon is entirely believable as one of the most powerful magic-users of all time.

I think it's also important to realize that Epic level magicians are probably not anymore common in the OOTS world than they are in many other D&D worlds. There could only be a dozen or so Epic Level characters in the history of the world.

Xykon is one.

[JeptCloak]

If Xykon is 26-32, which seems to be the current analysis people are spinning as likely, then he's certainly above Jephton. He's nowhere near Haerta, and I don't think he's as good as Ganeron either... just plot induced stupidity required Xykon wins. Even if Ganeron had a single other timestop, he'd have won. Normally Ganeron goes around with at least 2 prepared it seems, so Xykon would have been toast. Not to mention his higher stats, which V didn't get.

[Cracklord]

You mean Xykon could be more powerful to the two souls he just utterly crushed with both snarky comments and better tactics?
Wow, who would have thought.

[JeptCloak]

You mean Xykon could be more powerful to the two souls he just utterly crushed with both snarky comments and better tactics?
Wow, who would have thought.

I think there is really only evidence for Jephton... Ganeron looks pretty superior from all indications. If he had ported in blind he wouldn't have been nailed by the traps, Time Stop, end fight for Xykon. Alternatively, if he'd had all his spells he'd have had a time stop anyway. End fight. Or if he was working off his higher base stats in the fight. Even after 2 massive energy drains, he still seemed to be whipping out some pretty good spells. He could just Epic Teleport Xykon to somewhere inconvenient, and use Gate or Maze or whatever a high end conjurer like him has ready. It's not his fault V was railroaded into a plot induced loss.

[Kornaki]

You mean Xykon could be more powerful to the two souls he just utterly crushed with both snarky comments and better tactics?
Wow, who would have thought.

Considering the souls are in charge of neither comments nor tactics, this post has about zero value in analyzing the propose situation

[R. Malcovitch]

If Ganonron was allowed to have full reign round 1 would have likely ended in Xykon being Epic Teleported somewhere unpleasent, possibly in the heart of a volcano or in the realm of some god that hates undead, or else an army would have accompanied him into the tower.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

You mean Xykon could be more powerful to the two souls he just utterly crushed with both snarky comments and better tactics?
Wow, who would have thought.

Well, he more crushed V through better tactics and snarky comments. We know the souls didn't have any control over V's actions. At best they could advise V, which also clearly didn't work.

Which is to say the weak link in the soul splice was Vaarsuvius.


It's not his fault V was railroaded into a plot induced loss.

No, it's V fault. Nothing in the past couple of strips is out of character for V, she went in there acting exactly like she does in most encounters and paid for it (aided by Redcloak's preparations and level headedness, and Tsukiko's help).

No need to be bitter about that.

[JeptCloak]

Well, he more crushed V through better tactics and snarky comments. We know the souls didn't have any control over V's actions. At best they could advise V, which also clearly didn't work.

Which is to say the weak link in the soul splice was Vaarsuvius.



No, it's V fault. Nothing in the past couple of strips is out of character for V, she went in there acting exactly like she does in most encounters and paid for it (aided by Redcloak's preparations and level headedness, and Tsukiko's help).

No need to be bitter about that.

Even V fights smarter than that.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Even V fights smarter than that.

Rested, more balanced V? Sure, to a degree. Yet frequently ends up in similar predicaments (Zz'Dtri, Leeky, Death Knight, etc.).

For some reason it makes me think of the Rimmer character from Red Dwarf, who even manages to sabotage himself when placed in his own perfect fantasy.

Which, like V, ran to the fact that even with greater power he still has the same mind.

[EENick]

Even if Ganeron had a single other timestop, he'd have won.

I don't know that is true. Imagine if V time stoped and cast as similar set of spells as he did against the dragon. The fire balls would have done little since Xykon apparently has some protection from fire and all V's buffs would still have been quickly dispelled.

Even with an extra time stop it would have been far from a sure thing.

[JeptCloak]

I don't know that is true. Imagine if V time stoped and cast as similar set of spells as he did against the dragon. The fire balls would have done little since Xykon apparently has some protection from fire and all V's buffs would still have been quickly dispelled.

Even with an extra time stop it would have been far from a sure thing.

Ganeron could have timestopped, cast some protective spells, and then Epic Teleported Xykon (and himself) into a volcano or something. Preferably Ganeron teleports himself 20 feet away from the volcano, so Xykon by retaining his default position to G ends up in the volcano, but inside the heart on one works. Or into some place where you can only get in and out with Epic Teleport, or into some magical fire that has never gone out. Or teleport away and teleport back above Xykon's head with a gigantic castle that squishes him like a bug when it appears right above him. Or use Gate. Or Maze. Or whatever spells you expect conjurers to use.

[Warren Dew]

I will say, however, based on the Familicide spell, that Haerta (spelling?) probably had Xykon beat by... a LOT.

Haera was certainly as powerful as you say. However, she was a mortal spellcaster, since she's now dead. And their combined power was supposed to "dwarf that wielded by any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived". That means the others together have to be more powerful than Haera.

Now, it does seem that, even aside from being the Elan of arcane spellcasters, Jephton was a relative wimp - likely barely epic. That pretty much requires Ganonron to be in the same league as Haera for the whole combination to have "dwarfed" Haera, though.

But of course, that's inconsistent with the last two strips as written. We're forced to rationalize that the fiends just flat out lied.

That in turn changes the moral of the story from something potentially character building and interesting to just "the fiends can break their word and [presumably] still collect". Sure, Vaarsuvius is at fault for having believed them, but if the deal had been refused, the children's souls would be gone. It's okay for a picaresque story, but I guess I had unrealistic hopes for something a bit better.

[NerfTW]

Ganeron could have timestopped, cast some protective spells,

V did try to cast time stop. It was his first spell that got interrupted. The battle was lost because V didn't consider the possibility that there were wards in place. Teleporting into a volcano wouldn't have worked because Xykon would just cast flight, and had a magic item giving him fire immunity.

Not to mention Xykon said a while ago that he's been spending the full 8 hours a day that he's allowed crafting magic items. So given that he has an entire capitol's treasury at his disposal, he's probably pretty damn powerful right now.

Is it too much to ask that people actually read what the characters are saying before complaining about tactics?

[krko]

Haera was certainly as powerful as you say. However, she was a mortal spellcaster, since she's now dead. And their combined power was supposed to "dwarf that wielded by any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived". That means the others together have to be more powerful than Haera.

Now, it does seem that, even aside from being the Elan of arcane spellcasters, Jephton was a relative wimp - likely barely epic. That pretty much requires Ganonron to be in the same league as Haera for the whole combination to have "dwarfed" Haera, though.

But of course, that's inconsistent with the last two strips as written. We're forced to rationalize that the fiends just flat out lied.

That in turn changes the moral of the story from something potentially character building and interesting to just "the fiends can break their word and [presumably] still collect". Sure, Vaarsuvius is at fault for having believed them, but if the deal had been refused, the children's souls would be gone. It's okay for a picaresque story, but I guess I had unrealistic hopes for something a bit better.

I don't know, Heara + Epic conjurer 3-5 level lower than her+ Epic Sorceror pretty much dwarfs Heara alone IMO. Plus I think Ganonron alone could've beaten Xykon. After all, he'd probably make the concentration check against trap, then destroy it with a spell, then gate in all sorts of nasties, possibly including someone or something that can cast disjunction, rendering Xykon's protective spells and items moot. Heck, he'd probably teleport in with an army. Haera could've beaten Xykon since she'd probably have some epic spell designed to controll undead. Only Jephton would've likely lost Xykon, but then again he was the weakest link.

Really, the reason V lost was due to the fact that s/he was still thinking like a low-level blaster wizard, and that he still has the skills of a 14th level wizard. An epic spellcaster would've made the check against the wards, and that surprise round would've been more than enough for the win. Instead s/he got drained of their highest level spells, which pretty much gave Xykon the advantage. An epic spellcaster wouldn't have ported in alone, since they'd have to be more careful than that if to reach epic levels. He'd probably bring plenty of canon fodder or at least gated in balor, pit fied, or worse a Hecatoncheires/Infernal (easily controllable by 26+ HD conjurer). (Xykon is the exception since he has someone else (Redcloak) to be careful for him.)

That said, V could've won if she cast another sunburst instead of crushing had. Xykon has about 32d12 hp, well within 37d6(Empowered Sunburst) + 25d6 (regular sunburst)

[JeptCloak]

Ganeron wouldn't have failed his check, so the ward wouldn't have gotten him, so he makes his first timestop, and if he has his full power he has another one ready at least. Is it possible for you to read the words people write? And he just needs to cast the appropriate protections, then Epic teleport Xykon somewhere he's boned. It doesn't matter where. An Epic Conjurer should have enough arcane knowledge to know of such a place... the plane of sunburst fields? Some crap like that will do. Since all we've seen Xykon use is regular teleport, he doesn't have an obvious way out, then he dies.

I personally like the idea of Ganeron quickened/greater teleporting out, and then he epic teleports a giant castle he's standing on 10 feet above Xykon, squishing him like a bug. Or gate, or maze, or whatever.

I agree, the story has been a bit of a gyp, but as long as Ganeron is around 30+, which we've got plenty of evidence to assume is possible, then it'd still be enough to more or less dwarf Haerta. Jephton just adds alot of flexibility and more epic magic.

[DarthCyberWolf]

Wadda ya know? Found this;


Q: In Strip #X, why didn.t character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.


A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

But of course, that's inconsistent with the last two strips as written. We're forced to rationalize that the fiends just flat out lied.

I don't see any reason to believe that. They were certainly less then honest, but the splice delivered pretty much what it said on the box. They just added some color to make it more attractive.

And the box of course was mainly offered so that V could go and save his family, which he did easily. He then lost a powerful part of the splice, but still decide he had more then enough power to do everything else he needed to. That may have been true, but without the skill he failed. Not because the splice was faulty or the IFCC lied, but because V wasn't up to the task.

The problem seems to be that more then a few, including V, assumed the splice was so much greater then it was (and we probably never saw its full potential because V never used it as effectively as he could). Possibly by adding the Oracle's prophasy - "but if V can't beat Xykon then his ultimate arcane power is broken/the universe hates him."

The IFCC never promised ultimate arcane power, just more raw energy then any other mortal arcane spellcaster.


That in turn changes the moral of the story from something potentially character building and interesting to just "the fiends can break their word and [presumably] still collect". Sure, Vaarsuvius is at fault for having believed them, but if the deal had been refused, the children's souls would be gone. It's okay for a picaresque story, but I guess I had unrealistic hopes for something a bit better.

How exactly did the fiends break their work? They gave V what they said they would, V agreed, used the Splice successfully for the reason he originally wanted it, and then tried to do more and succeeded before finally biting of more then he could chew and failing.

"The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that of any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived"

Nothing to show V didn't have that. Of course "raw" is telling.

If some trio of evil beings offered me "more raw wealth then any person who has lived" I'd have no right to complain if I discover they had just given me a plot of land that will have to be mined for years to in order to get the gold and jewels.

[Kasky]

"The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that of any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived"


Doesn't sound like they lied at all, Xykon isn't exactly the most mortal person around anymore.

And teleporting into a volcano? Wouldn't that just be inconvenient to a person who is immune to fire damage?

[JeptCloak]

Doesn't sound like they lied at all, Xykon isn't exactly the most mortal person around anymore.

And teleporting into a volcano? Wouldn't that just be inconvenient to a person who is immune to fire damage?

For Jebus sake, stop quoting Xykon's immortality as a reason that he loopholes the contract. It's only relevant if there was some possibility Xykon was the most powerful arcane user of all time, or close. Given Haerta was mortal, and she appears to have been substantially stronger than him, it's moot. Likewise, Dorukan was comprable to him, and he was mortal. So it should dwarf xykon regardless.

There is not clear evidence he's immune to all forms of heat damage, it's unclear exactly what sort of immunity the item gives him... it's an example, there are plenty of other ways to own Xykon.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Doesn't sound like they lied at all, Xykon isn't exactly the most mortal person around anymore.

True, I don't think they out and out lied either. Epic guys are certainly rare in the OotS-verse, and Xykon is certainly a lot more powerful now then he was when alive.


For Jebus sake, stop quoting Xykon's immortality as a reason that he loopholes the contract. It's only relevant if there was some possibility Xykon was the most powerful arcane user of all time, or close. Given Haerta was mortal, and she appears to have been substantially stronger than him, it's moot. Likewise, Dorukan was comprable to him, and he was mortal. So it should dwarf xykon regardless.

He doesn't loophole the contract.

The IFCC doesn't say the souls they were using were the most powerful of all time, just the most powerful they command - and we don't know how far that command reaches.

Likewise it doesn't include neutral or good arcane spellcasters, nor those who never died permanently. So theoretically there may have been more powerful casters out there then any one of the three souls the IFCC chose to use.

What they do say is that the four souls together give raw energy that would dwarf any mortal arcane spell caster that ever lived.

Which doesn't actually contain anything that assures a caster (living or dead) who is less powerful then the three souls in life (individually) will lose to the individual using them in a splice, especially if that individual doesn't use them effectively. Probably because the deal doesn't promise V will be the best or better then any mortal arcane spellcaster that ever lived. Just that he'd have more raw power then any other.

And not all caster builds being equal... yeah, on paper Xykon isn't as powerful, in story factors allowed him to overcome two splice V, without voiding or invalidating what the IFCC said V would be getting.

[Optimystik]

Xykon's strategy is pretty foolproof: You can win any caster fight (against a living enemy) with dispels and level drains. Remove their protection and hit them with something unresistable that makes them weaker. Repeat until harmless/dead.

Not a single caster that's gone up against him (with the possible exception of Ydranna) has bothered protecting themselves against negative energy. Against an opponent they know is undead and has a thing for necromancy, that's pretty idiotic.


The IFCC doesn't say the souls they were using were the most powerful of all time, just the most powerful they command - and we don't know how far that command reaches.

Well, Xykon himself put it best: they can't have been that good at what they did if they ended up dead. An epic necromancer in particular should have been looking into prolonging things.

[JaxGaret]

Xykon's strategy is pretty foolproof: You can win any caster fight (against a living enemy) with dispels and level drains. Remove their protection and hit them with something unresistable that makes them weaker. Repeat until harmless/dead.

Not a single caster that's gone up against him (with the possible exception of Ydranna) has bothered protecting themselves against negative energy. Against an opponent they know is undead and has a thing for necromancy, that's pretty idiotic.

I think part of the "idiocy" of those who go up against Xykon is arrogance and a severe underestimation of Xykon's abilities. It seems like everyone expects Xykon to be a stupid straight forward blaster, which he IS, but what people don't realize is that the reason he is a blaster is because he likes it. He enjoys blasting things. At his core, though, he is a pretty well rounded caster (for a Sorcerer) with lots of tricks up his sleeves. Not to mention Epic and a Lich to boot at this point.

When the chips fall, he isn't nearly as stupid or incompetent as everyone generally assumes him to be; rather, he is usually a determined and canny foe.


Well, Xykon himself put it best: they can't have been that good at what they did if they ended up dead. An epic necromancer in particular should have been looking into prolonging things.

Exactly. Xykon repeatedly shows himself to be more perceptive about certain things than almost everyone else, cutting right to the root of what is really going on, and disregarding that which really doesn't matter in the end.

[Berserk Monk]

Why is he more powerful? It's called plot.

[Ave]

It's not Xykon who beat Varsuvius.

1. Xykon had access to divine spells.
2. Varsuvius had a complete ignorance of divine spells.
3. well, plot :)

Xykon would have died twice already if not for Redcloak.

[Flickerdart]

1. Xykon had access to divine spells.
He doesn't. He has access to Tsukiko and Redcloak, both of who have divine spells, but Xykon himself is a Sorcerer. Probably doesn't know all that much about Divine magic either.

[Nerdanel]

I think Xykon "probably is" more powerful than V's spliced souls, or at the very least probably is more powerful than the souls he used for buffing himself, which might not necessarily include Haerta.

V had multiple buffs going on and Xykon dispelled them all, something that is far more likely if Xykon's caster level is higher than V's and completely impossible if Xykon is ten caster levels or more below V. I wrote about this in the Class and Level Geekery.

[David Argall]

We have a lot of loophole hunting here, but no, the three souls should each be way higher than Xykon had been shown to have been.
We have no evidence that Xykon is the highest level of his own time and place. The idea that he dominates other times and places is highly dubious on its face. It is a excessive claim to say Xykon is best of his century. And there were 11 previous centuries. The description of the souls tells us there is no limit here to just the casters of the OOTS world. Taking the figure given of a thousand, we have Xykon lost in a crowd of over ten thousand candidates. Even cutting out the Good and Neutral ones, and saying other Archfiends won't lent souls for a bad cause, we still are looking at good sized numbers, and taking the best three of them.
Each of the three should be well above Xykon.

[Kish]

V had multiple buffs going on and Xykon dispelled them all, something that is far more likely if Xykon's caster level is higher than V's and completely impossible if Xykon is ten caster levels or more below V. I wrote about this in the Class and Level Geekery.
Superb Dispelling is an epic spell with a fixed DC.

[Shatteredtower]

Each of the three should be well above Xykon.

Nothing in the comics supports this claim.

[Moriarty]

Nothing in the comics supports this claim.

well the fiends do.

on the other side, nothing indicates Xykon being stronger than the linked spirits. Xykon is stronger as a lowlv wizard infused with highlv spells, but the high saves and hd of the spliced souls could make them more poverful than Xykon.

[Llama231]

How do we even know the Haeta was so much more powerful than the other two? Was the familicide spell simply much more powerful than all of the other epic spells that the could cast, or something?

[Warren Dew]

I don't know, Heara + Epic conjurer 3-5 level lower than her+ Epic Sorceror pretty much dwarfs Heara alone IMO.... Really, the reason V lost was due to the fact that s/he was still thinking like a low-level blaster wizard, and that he still has the skills of a 14th level wizard.... V could've won if she cast another sunburst instead of crushing had. Xykon has about 32d12 hp, well within 37d6(Empowered Sunburst) + 25d6 (regular sunburst)

I suppose if you believe the author is so bad at characterization that he could have Vaarsuvius handle the mother dragon deftly and efficiently, then suddenly become completely incompetent less than 20 minutes later for no apparent reason, then Ganonron might be as powerful as you say and Vaarsuvius might just have been too stupid to repeat the sunburst or to use quickened spells, even when they were available. To me, though, such bad characterization is much worse for suspension of disbelief than simply accepting that there's no real meaning to the story arc.


He doesn't loophole the contract.

The IFCC doesn't say the souls they were using were the most powerful of all time, just the most powerful they command - and we don't know how far that command reaches.

Likewise it doesn't include neutral or good arcane spellcasters, nor those who never died permanently.

The words were "dwarf that wielded by any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived"; "any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived" clearly includes Haera, which was JeptCloak's point. For that matter, it likely includes Xykon, since he has lived, though that doesn't matter unless you want to argue that Xykon is more powerful than Haera at her peak.


Well, Xykon himself put it best: they can't have been that good at what they did if they ended up dead. An epic necromancer in particular should have been looking into prolonging things.

Of course, Xykon is pretty certain to end up dead long before he conquers two planes, let alone a thousand. What he says is good trash talk, but it's only factually correct if the fiends left out the "in" in "Ganonron, in terror of a thousand planes".

Edit:


How do we even know the Haeta was so much more powerful than the other two?

We know Haera/Haerta was the most powerful because one of the fiends said so in comic 641 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html). How much weaker the others were is basically the subject of discussion here.

[Forum Explorer]

V is the one who lost. Due to the soul splice she was more powerful then Xykon but not powerful or smart enough to destroy him in one turn. Xykon even looks a little battred at the end of the comic. My point is V lost because she/he wasn't able to maintain the splice any longer.

Xykon probley was stronger then one of the souls. Afterall nothing says he isn't. Stonger then all of them, no not even close. Stronger then two of them agian no but alot closer this time. Plus Xykon had Redcloak and Tsuito, Redcloak might even be epic at this point or close to. We can assume he has 9th level spells at least. Tsuito is a match for any OotS character so she is high level as well, since she isn't stronger then any of them or even two of them lets put her at the same level. While they didn't really do anything in this fight they contributed to V losing the splice and the power to defeat Xykon.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

The words were "dwarf that wielded by any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived"; "any arcane spellcaster who has ever lived" clearly includes Haera, which was JeptCloak's point. For that matter, it likely includes Xykon, since he has lived, though that doesn't matter unless you want to argue that Xykon is more powerful than Haera at her peak.

I know, I was talking specifically about the souls the IFCC were using and how they were the most powerful they commanded, which would specifically keep good and neutral souls, plus the souls of guys like Xykon, from the equation.

So there may have been more powerful arcane spell casters then any single one of the souls in the splice, certainly. However the three souls together in the splice + V would still dwarf them in terms of raw power.

But not necessarily skill, knowledge or whatever. Which is the thing, I get hung up on the "raw power" bit, while others seem to worry mainly about the "dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster..." bit.


Of course, Xykon is pretty certain to end up dead long before he conquers two planes, let alone a thousand...

Quite likely because he is going after a beasty that can kill entire pantheons with no worries.

And we don't know Ganonron conquered even two planes, just that he apparently terrorized a lot of them.


I suppose if you believe the author is so bad at characterization that he could have Vaarsuvius handle the mother dragon deftly and efficiently and got surprised that he overcame her AMF...

Well, the ABD also didn't have people around to advise her, underestimated V, and wasn't really engaging in a full out magical duel - what with being a dragon first, with some caster levels second.

Plus V got off the Time Stop, which proved a vital part of the victory. And then the ABD gave V the opening to perform a one hit kill on her.

If she had been smarter she would have teleported away when things started going pear shaped, but she was overconfident and believed she could win... hmmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar.


then suddenly become completely incompetent less than 20 minutes later for no apparent reason

Except it appeared he was planning on using similar tactics as those employed so successfully against the ABD (a time stop combo). When that failed V largely reverted to his personal evoker stratagies.

Which I don't think is meant to show a sudden onset of incompetence, but rather a distinct lack of experience plus making the same mistake as the ABD made - underestimating the opponent.


We have a lot of loophole hunting here, but no, the three souls should each be way higher than Xykon had been shown to have been.

Do you mean as part of the splice (then yes) or just as they are (or if they were alive)? I the latter why? The IFCC gave a specific reference to the souls power - that is, they were the most powerful they commanded. We don't know how much they command, and it does keep out souls from other alignments.

I think all three souls individually are likely higher level then Xykon, though some more then others. Of course higher could be anything from one level to 15 levels or more.


We have no evidence that Xykon is the highest level of his own time and place. The idea that he dominates other times and places is highly dubious on its face. It is a excessive claim to say Xykon is best of his century. And there were 11 previous centuries. The description of the souls tells us there is no limit here to just the casters of the OOTS world.

I agree. But the souls themselves weren't described as the best there is, just the best there is that the IFCC has access to. And we haven't really seen, beyond Order of the Scribble members, many others near/on/or beyond Xykon's level. High level arcane magic users seem particularly rare.


Taking the figure given of a thousand, we have Xykon lost in a crowd of over ten thousand candidates. Even cutting out the Good and Neutral ones, and saying other Archfiends won't lent souls for a bad cause, we still are looking at good sized numbers, and taking the best three of them.
Each of the three should be well above Xykon.

I agree in above, but I'm not sure I'd say all three are certainly much higher then him.

And I don't really know if we have a reference to the possible numbers, since we know little about that thousand.

[JeptCloak]

Two things.
1) Ganeron is described as conquering "world after world", so to pass this off as some sort of lame terrorist is just not consistent with what we've been told about him.
2) And remember, V was promised power dwarfing any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. This implies more than "a little higher than Xykon". I think Jephton might be similar to Xykon, but there is just no way he should be near Ganeron or Haerta.

[Optimystik]

Of course, Xykon is pretty certain to end up dead long before he conquers two planes, let alone a thousand. What he says is good trash talk, but it's only factually correct if the fiends left out the "in" in "Ganonron, in terror of a thousand planes".


Xykon doesn't know or even think he's going to lose, so our certainty of his defeat doesn't matter much to his perspective. As for Ganonron, he seems to have omitted the Prime Material plane from his planar conquest, or it happened so long ago that it faded from common history; either way, he's a nobody and a has-been no matter how great a conqueror he was back in his heyday.

[JeptCloak]

Xykon doesn't know or even think he's going to lose, so our certainty of his defeat doesn't matter much to his perspective. As for Ganonron, he seems to have omitted the Prime Material plane from his planar conquest, or it happened so long ago that it faded from common history; either way, he's a nobody and a has-been no matter how great a conqueror he was back in his heyday.

That's a ridiculous line. If by nobody and has-been you mean he is no longer alive, then sure. But he's clearly one of the greatest arcane users of all time. Much more powerful than Xykon.

[Optimystik]

That's a ridiculous line. If by nobody and has-been you mean he is no longer alive, then sure. But he's clearly one of the greatest arcane users of all time. Much more powerful than Xykon.

Was one of the greatest.

And to a bad-guy, it's all about going out with a bang and leaving a legacy. I'm sure all that eternal damnation he's dealing with is making him feel good about his life choices, wouldn't you say?

Notice how helpful these so-called embodiments of evil magic have been to V? Do you atually think it's because they have a desire to help him - or their dark masters, for that matter? A much more likely scenario is that this is the first time they've actually gotten to cast any spells in centuries if not millennia. Notice how happy they get when casting epic spells.

[Lkctgo]

Nothing in the comics supports this claim.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Dagren]

And to a bad-guy, it's all about going out with a bang and leaving a legacy.Not from Xykon's perspective. To him, it's all about not going at all.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Two things.
1) Ganeron is described as conquering "world after world", so to pass this off as some sort of lame terrorist is just not consistent with what we've been told about him.

Where does lame terrorist come from? The bit about terrorizing planes? Strictly speakings so called barbarian hordes (as they have been long portrayed) could terrorize empires without actually conquering them.

So with his vast armies he could have been attacking multiple planes, looting and ransacking. He doesn't have to conquer them all to be a terror.

And not consistent with what we've been told? The IFCC pretty clearly stated Ganonron's achievements were based on being able to transport vast armies, and nothing else about his personal power.

Your approach with Ganonron reminds me of Zapp Brannigan claiming to be a great leader. Defeating the Pacifists of the Gandhi Nebula, conquering the Retiree People of the Assisted Living Nebula...


2) And remember, V was promised power dwarfing any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. This implies more than "a little higher than Xykon". I think Jephton might be similar to Xykon, but there is just no way he should be near Ganeron or Haerta.

No, the IFCC say nothing of the multiverse, just raw power dwarfing that of any mortal arcane spell caster who has ever lived - which I'd think refers to the world V is on and that world alone. If they wanted to bring in the multiverse they could have said "who ever lived in all of existence".

[SoC175]

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell with a fixed DC.
The DC is just to be able to cast SD at all. If you make the DC you still have to dispell like usual

[Kish]

The DC is just to be able to cast SD at all. If you make the DC you still have to dispell like usual
Yes, I stand corrected, I know little of epic spells.

[JeptCloak]

right after they tell him his power will dwarf any arcane user who ever lived, they tell him this is a once in a lifetime opporunity, and that's from the whole history of the multiverse. So unless you want to be silly with the words again, it's pretty clear what they're talking about here.

Sure, Ganeron doesn't have to have conquer literally 1000 worlds, but "world after world" implies as hell of alot more than 2, and he's also described as a conquerer. Plus, he has to stay alive from threats to his person, in the same way Xykon is being randomly attacked by people, and he's only got 1 city. I can't see Xykon even conquering this one, he's lucky he hasn't been killed several times already. Hell, I don't think Xykon would stand up to most ancient dragons... and before anyone say "this world is about 1200 years old" we know nothing of the sort, all we know is that it will be the year 1187 soon (or something similar), we don't know their year system isn't similar to ours, and it was measured differently before year 0.

[KyrtFurey]

Even V fights smarter than that.

When and where?

EJL

[JeptCloak]

When and where?

EJL

How about 10 minutes ago when he completed owned a black dragon? V has never shown himself to be inept in his understanding of how magic works. He does well against people who outpower him too (Bandit Sorceress for eg), he talks too much, but he's never come off anywhere near as foolish as he did against Xykon. He was smart in the siege of Azure, he was smart when he defeated the first black dragon by researching, then using, disintgrate. He was smart when he nailed a Chimera. He fought intelligently despite lack of trancing against the giant devil.

Nobody is saying V is matchless in tactics, but he's not inept. At times he was coming off as ludicrously inept. Sunburst hurts him? do it again! You're against a Lich? Don't use electricity... and come on, the guy knows he's off to fight a lich, something he must have done research on, either in his 60 yrs studying, or since he joined a party of adventures questing to destroy a lich. Plenty of other spells have been offered to destroy both the traps and hurt the others. But he picks Xykon as the primary target... ridiculous. He has a master conjurer with him, but he fails to use spells like Gate or Maze. Even I know that's stupid. Many people have explained the numerous tactics he had open to him.

[KyrtFurey]

But of course, that's inconsistent with the last two strips as written. We're forced to rationalize that the fiends just flat out lied.

With the three souls spliced, V had access to epic spells, lots more spell slots, no barred schools of magic, the spell knowledge of three epic magic users and the ability to spontaneously cast these spells.

The fiends didn't lie. The problem lies with people thinking they were talking about levels rather than capabilities. How many other casters would be able to cast as many epic and non-epic spells as she? How many other caster have the same spell list? How many other casters have no barred schools of magic?

EJL

[JeptCloak]

But not enough to dwarf any arcane user in the history of the multiverse dude. Not unless dwarf means "30-40% stronger than". V should have been way above Xykon still, and they didn't exactly say V wasn't, they just expect us to believe V stuffed up enough... it's a railroad plot, and I think some of it was very poorly written.

[Nomadicstorm]

I don't know much about D&D, my experience with the phenomenon comes from computer games like Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate and so on and so forth.

But I think you're forgetting something when you argue that each of the souls should be more powerful than Xykon individually. As some people have pointed out, the only statement made was that they were the most powerful spellcasters the fiends commanded, which limits the selection. Also, they said that their combined energy would dwarf that of any other spellcaster. I think I read someone saying V is level 14. The others are epic. Say 20, 25 and 30 respectively. That still makes a combined level of 89... And while Xykon can be level 38, and thus outmatch any of the individual souls, I doubt he's past level 89, for obvious reasons.

So yes, combined they're more powerful than Xykon... But he still outmatches them individually. Add to that equation that the two remaining souls, and V, have spent a large part of their spell storage. V was a virtual wreck when he got the souls splices, likely with almost all the spells expended, as well as focused on divination spells. The splices' spells were used fighting the dragon, teleporting the fleet and all that. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me that Xykon would be more powerful than the three remaining casters when a large part of their spell supply is expended and Xykon is well-rested.

[JeptCloak]

I don't know much about D&D, my experience with the phenomenon comes from computer games like Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate and so on and so forth.

But I think you're forgetting something when you argue that each of the souls should be more powerful than Xykon individually. As some people have pointed out, the only statement made was that they were the most powerful spellcasters the fiends commanded, which limits the selection. Also, they said that their combined energy would dwarf that of any other spellcaster. I think I read someone saying V is level 14. The others are epic. Say 20, 25 and 30 respectively. That still makes a combined level of 89... And while Xykon can be level 38, and thus outmatch any of the individual souls, I doubt he's past level 89, for obvious reasons.

So yes, combined they're more powerful than Xykon... But he still outmatches them individually. Add to that equation that the two remaining souls, and V, have spent a large part of their spell storage. V was a virtual wreck when he got the souls splices, likely with almost all the spells expended, as well as focused on divination spells. The splices' spells were used fighting the dragon, teleporting the fleet and all that. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me that Xykon would be more powerful than the three remaining casters when a large part of their spell supply is expended and Xykon is well-rested.

However we're also told he can't get any XP, because he's so far beyond any foes he'll face. Likewise, he's told this is a once in a lifetime of the multiverse opportunity. Then there is what we've seen and heard these 3 can do. Haerta's ludicrous familicide and disjunction. Ganeron conquering "world after world". These are all things beyond Xykon. Your interpretation just doesn't fly, especially not since the oracle promised "ultimate arcane power" (assuming this is it). I can buy Jephton is around the same level (as seems certain), but not Ganeron or Haerta.

[KyrtFurey]

How about 10 minutes ago when he completed owned a black dragon?

By using the exact same tactics he used against Xykon.

He jumped in, blind, cast Time Stop, buffed himself, cast some delayed damage spells and changed shape.

He also got zinged by the ABDs acid breath and got swallowed.

What's more is...the ABD doesn't seem to have been "epic".

He didn't fight better there. He used the exact same tactics and against a weaker, less prepared opponent who was not fighting on her home turf and who believed they were fighting a lowly L14 caster - they worked.


V has never shown himself to be inept in his understanding of how magic works. He does well against people who outpower him too (Bandit Sorceress for eg), he talks too much, but he's never come off anywhere near as foolish as he did against Xykon.

Unfortuantely ...he didn't fight foolishly against Xykon. He was overconfident, but there wasn't one spell that he used which didn't have a purpose behind it.

You have objected to Chain Lightning for example as a poor choice. And overlooked the fact V cast it to get rid of those runes. Dimensional Anchor - to stop Xykon fleeing as V was till confident of victory.

You've said he said this spell or that spell without once asking if he had prepared those spells for use, or if he'd had them drained by Xykons Energy Drain. You've complained that he didn't have more Time Stops prepared - but even if they weren't drained, how many Time Stops do you think a wizard needs to prepare, especially since they take up slots that could be filled by other spells?


He was smart in the siege of Azure, he was smart when he defeated the first black dragon by researching, then using, disintgrate. He was smart when he nailed a Chimera. He fought intelligently despite lack of trancing against the giant devil.

And always be following the tactic - throw everything you have at them. Agaisnt the dragon...V only had suggestion. So he used it. Then he used Disintegration.

Victory does not mean he fought smart. Victory means he overpowered his opponents. Even against the devil, his first choice, his first option was to try his direct damage spells.

That is Vs modus operandi. He is not a tactician. He is not a planner and he rarely tries the unconventional unless he has no choice.



At times he was coming off as ludicrously inept. Sunburst hurts him? do it again!

Good. How many does he have prepared? Only 1? Good thing it hit then. more? How many spells did Energy Drain take from him again?


You're against a Lich? Don't use electricity... and come on, the guy knows he's off to fight a lich, something he must have done research on, either in his 60 yrs studying, or since he joined a party of adventures questing to destroy a lich.

You mean...the same party who didn't know about phylacteries? And as stated previously....chain lightning vs runes was a good idea.



He has a master conjurer with him, but he fails to use spells like Gate or Maze.

Gate is a spell which is channelled. Are we expected to think V would be able to keep concentrating on the spell while somehow talking Xykon into stopping the battle and moving into the noce glowing rift?

V could perhaps call forth a creature to help him....but that would entail him having an actual knowledge of creatrues form other planes.

Maze? If it worked, Maze would banish Xykon for about 10 minutes. 10 minutes during which time V wouldn't be able to fight him. 10 minutes that he didn't want to wait as it increased his debt by that much. Why would V cast Maze?

And finally, just because he didn't use his spells in the order you would have done so, does not mean that he would never have used such spells at all.

EJL

[Dagren]

How many other casters have no barred schools of magic?That last one isn't much of a point, since my wizard also has no barred schools. The rest are good points, though.

[KyrtFurey]

But not enough to dwarf any arcane user in the history of the multiverse dude. Not unless dwarf means "30-40% stronger than". V should have been way above Xykon still, and they didn't exactly say V wasn't, they just expect us to believe V stuffed up enough... it's a railroad plot, and I think some of it was very poorly written.

You are taking the fiends talk a little too literally I think.

First...Xykons level. We don't know it. He is epic is about as close as we can get. Greater Invisibility could have been cast from a scroll. Maximise via objects or feats. His guess at the levle difference between him and Roy may have been wrong. He could be 21. He could be 31. We don't know. Theres nothing definite either way.


Second...the fiends promised V power...."the amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived"

This doesn't say anything about Xykon. Sure he was alive once....but he's moved on since then. What if he was l17 when he became a Lich? And is now L30? The fiend skept their word and the description is accurate.YOu arte assuming that just because Xykon was once alive, that the fiends description must include him now.

That is why the qualifier "mortal" may be important. I'm sure the power of the splice dwarfed that of Xykon when he was alive. Now that he isn't mortal?

Same with arcane. Another important quaiifier. It means there could potentially be a more power caster living who uses divine magic.

Then again...we have the "four". V has lost a soul. The fiends didn't promise ultimate pwoer with only three souls.

Third - "once in a lifetime opportunity" and "lifetime is that of the entire multiverse" refers to the triple splice. Come to think of it, "once a century" also doesn't mean "never done before so noone else woudl knwo about it".

As for "dwarfing any mortal acane spell user who ever lived" - again, all we know is that Haerta was the strongest. We don't know their relative powers. But Vs power with 4 souls did dwarf Haertas.

But V plus 2 souls? No. We don't know about that. Odds are...V was more powerful. But more powerful does not equate to certain victory. V acted completely in character, as did Xykon. V lost because he acted like V. Xykon won because he acted like Xykon.

EJL

[KyrtFurey]

However we're also told he can't get any XP, because he's so far beyond any foes he'll face.

No...hes told he could, but his effective level is so high its unlikely. Which is fair...he's a team of three epic casters and a L14. There isn't much which can stand up to that.


Likewise, he's told this is a once in a lifetime of the multiverse opportunity.

Yes, because its unlikely three fiends will cooperate that much again.


Ganeron conquering "world after world". These are all things beyond Xykon.

All Xykon needs to conquer world after world is a suitable mass teleport spell. or someone else to do it for him. He's already started conquering the world he is on. He is, after all, at the start of his career.


Your interpretation just doesn't fly, especially not since the oracle promised "ultimate arcane power" (assuming this is it). I can buy Jephton is around the same level (as seems certain), but not Ganeron or Haerta.

There aren't a lot of casters which have the strengths and knwoledge of V plus the splices. It isn't just down to levels. Had V time to learn the power....he'd have been nigh unstoppable.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

Based on the standard black dragon chart a dragon with his lvl of spells would be a Wyrm. I know it was called an ABD by Qar, but that's hardly scientific. Something with Wyrm based stats should completely crush Xykon. And frankly, if the ABD had fought Xykon, Xykon would have been crushed. The ABD took a disintegrate from an Epic lvl caster, fire shield, delayed blast fireball and then was ripped up from the inside. V's tactics were fine because V knew the dragon would be gloating, and totally unprepared for what he could do. When the dragon survived the initial dijunction and disintegrate, then V got serious.

Timestops? I'd certainly expect Jephton (fiddle with reality because you can) to have at least one, and it seems like Jephton contributed nothing to the fight. Ganeron only has 2 prepped? If that's true, then he should have some other big name spells ready given his level. I've given examples. It's ok to have only 2 timestops, as long as he has other good stuff ready. He doesn't show it.
Only one Sunburst? No, that doesn't make any sense, because it's an 8th lvl spell (which he beefed to empowered), and next strip his opening move is a 9th lvl spell. He should have it still, especially with the levels these guys are meant to be at. I can buy he's out of empowered sunbursts though.
Yes, there were better options than chain lighting, and if V doesn't have them then exactly what spells does V have? It was a question that begged to be asked given the abundance of high level spells that should have been remaining. Even putting aside all that, he has been on a quest for over a year to destroy a lich. He should have researched them, like he does everything else, and at the bare minimum the lighting should have hit redcloak or Jirix first, then on to the others and the wall.
Perhaps most contemptuous is your dismissal of Maze. Yes, V would and should have cast it, and Ganeron as a conjurer should have had it. You object because V would be delaying the battle. That's exactly what V was trying to do with timestop. Assess the situation, then delay while they're paralysed and beef up/prep. If V was lucky enough for Xykon to be gone for 10 mins, during that time he'd have killed Redcloak and Jirix, destroyed the amulet, freed O'Chul, buffed massively, summoned a tonne of creatures to destroy Xykon on his return, etc. Xykon would be complete toast. V was annoyed about standing around for 10 mins doing nothing, using Maze on Xykon while he beefs himself is more like timestop than waiting for Roy on a nameless island. Xykon taking 10 minutes on purpose, when Redcloak will be dead by then, is also pretty unlikely.

Your interpretation of the promises of the fiends is (mostly) possible under various interpretations, it's just an absurd and poorly written (and lame) interpretation. V was told no XP, so Xykon should be nothing to him, and likewise I scoff at the continual references to Xykon somehow loopholing the promise because he's a Lich and not mortal. He fought Dorukan less than a year ago, a wizard of comprable power. Was Dorukan mortal? If he was, V should dwarf him and gain no XP from beating him. Do you really believe Xykon is comprable to Haerta? That would be ridiculous. Nor would Xykon be capable of conquering 2 planes, let alone "world after world". I'm not even convinced he'd be able to beat the Dragon as V did. What exactly would Xykon's defence to the Dragon be? Dragon flies in and puts on AMF, Xykon either doesn't have disjunction, or only has a poor chance of it working, and by then Xykon has been crushed like a bug. His only real chance is to flee.

[JeptCloak]

No...hes told he could, but his effective level is so high its unlikely. Which is fair...he's a team of three epic casters and a L14. There isn't much which can stand up to that.



Yes, because its unlikely three fiends will cooperate that much again.



All Xykon needs to conquer world after world is a suitable mass teleport spell. or someone else to do it for him. He's already started conquering the world he is on. He is, after all, at the start of his career.



There aren't a lot of casters which have the strengths and knwoledge of V plus the splices. It isn't just down to levels. Had V time to learn the power....he'd have been nigh unstoppable.

EJL

Completely ridiculous. If Xykon outlevels V then V would be incredibly likely to lose, meaning a victory would gain oodles of XP, which makes their promise patently false. It's a ridiculous reading of what was said.
Xykon has so far been almost killed a number of times. Soon in particular, nothing more than an Epic Paladin, completely owned him, showing no real damage or concern in their fight, which resulted in Xykon running like a girl. Roy has beaten him, albeit through plot device. Xykon had to lure Dorukan out, because he feared he'd lose if he fought on his home turf. I see no evidence Xykon could beat the ABD either. Xykon is a powerful guy, one of the highest current living arcane users in this world no doubt, but he has not shown himself to be capable of conquering a single world yet. His current record is a single city, much of it thanks to his army, not him. How exactly would Xykon react to what a guy with a multidimensional empire has to react to? Constant resistance and assassination attempts from all the worlds you're crushing, which would include dragons, epic monsters, epic wizards and paladins, etc. None of which are going to necessarily fight one at a time.

[KyrtFurey]

Completely ridiculous. If Xykon outlevels V then V would be incredibly likely to lose, meaning a victory would gain oodles of XP, which makes their promise patently false. It's a ridiculous reading of what was said.

Its what the fiends say. And Xykon does outlevel V. And possibly the other casters as well.

But V is a gestalt. Three epic casters and V, all forming their own little gorup. What would be challenge for V is nothing to the group. For something to actually be a challenge, it would have to be something that could challenge three epic casters.


Soon in particular, nothing more than an Epic Paladin, completely owned him, showing no real damage or concern in their fight, which resulted in Xykon running like a girl.

A fight that has been analysed before. Epic dead Paladin fighting in a consecrated room with an army of raised followers against a lich optimised for fighting casters and with few spells able to hurt them. Xykon did quite well. Still lost, but you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better anti-Xykon scenario.


I see no evidence Xykon could beat the ABD either.

Your belief that the ABD was a Wyrm in disguise aside, you may be right. That doesn't change the point being made.


His current record is a single city, much of it thanks to his army, not him.

And Js record was thanks to his army. You seem to be of the impression that the epic caster just teleported from world to world and fought them all singlehandedly. He didn't. He teleported his armies from world to world and let them fight.


How exactly would Xykon react to what a guy with a multidimensional empire has to react to? Constant resistance and assassination attempts from all the worlds you're crushing, which would include dragons, epic monsters, epic wizards and paladins, etc. None of which are going to necessarily fight one at a time.

Well...that's a stretch. For all we know , he conquered world after world because he targetted those which weren't a threat to him.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

More silliness.
1) If Xykon outlevelled the 3 splices, then even all 3 of them at the same time would be enough of a challenge to earn XP (remember how the other 4 members of the order threatened to kill Belkar for XP if he killed Elan?). Likewise, they are not "a group of 4", they are in one gesalt entity, and a DM would be factoring that in. It's 1 turn v.s 1 turn, so for the XP promise to make sense, they should massively outlevel Xykon. They should massively outclass him for other reasons too, this is one of them though.
2) Xykon was healed in his fight v.s Soon, and by that point there were few ghosts left, and Redcloak fought them while Xykon and Soon floated around hacking away. Sure, Xykon had used many of his good spells, probably already alot of them on Soon, who wasn't getting any healing at all. However Soon basically was dominating Xykon. At best you could argue at full strength the 2 would be even. All this "he was a ghost, that's not fair" is about as applicable as "Xykon is a lich, that's not fair".
3) This has been covered. Yes, Ganeron had armies, but as a conquerer who crushed world after world, he has to survive a case of death from the many beings on those worlds who don't like being "crushed beneath his heel". These beings will often have capabilities like the dragon V fought, or like epic wizards, and they will not fight their way through his armies, often they will teleport to him and throw on an AMF like the ABD, or appear invisibly or be Epic assassins trying to kill him, etc. He has to be of such a level that casual threats could be dealt with, and that he coul control his armies. Of course, if you want to believe he conquered harmless worlds with bunnies instead of dragons, then you can believe anything. Of course, a story that requires us to believe that is ineptly written.

[KyrtFurey]

Based on the standard black dragon chart a dragon with his lvl of spells would be a Wyrm.

Maybe. But shes an ABD.

However, this is where your lack of unerstanding of game mechanics is starting to show.


V's tactics were fine because V knew the dragon would be gloating, and totally unprepared for what he could do. When the dragon survived the initial dijunction and disintegrate, then V got serious.

No...she didn't. She was already worried she'd be too late to save her family.


Timestops? I'd certainly expect Jephton (fiddle with reality because you can) to have at least one, and it seems like Jephton contributed nothing to the fight.

Why would J prepare Time Stop if G was doing so?


Ganeron only has 2 prepped? If that's true, then he should have some other big name spells ready given his level. I've given examples. It's ok to have only 2 timestops, as long as he has other good stuff ready. He doesn't show it.

What would you suggest? Gate and Maze aren't good suggestions. V doesn't seem to know the extra planar relams that well and, in case you didn't notice, G isn't helping.


Only one Sunburst?

How many would you prepare to fight a dragon?


Yes, there were better options than chain lighting, and if V doesn't have them then exactly what spells does V have?

Why use a epic spell when a low level one would do?


He should have researched them

You keep missing this. V is intelligent. He isn't wise.


like he does everything else, and at the bare minimum the lighting should have hit redcloak or Jirix first, then on to the others and the wall.

Yes. But its been established that V doesn't know that much about liches. A definite oversight on Vs part....but also totally in character. The spell also fulfilled its primary aim.


That's exactly what V was trying to do with timestop.

1D4 rounds as opposed to 10 minutes. She wasn't prepared to wait ten minutes to go in with a team. As for Rc and Jirix...who are they and why should V worry about someone with no real magic?




V was told no XP

Clarified - in the same panel of the same strip - to be just unliekly


so Xykon should be nothing to him

For all we know, Xykon was one of thse exceptions the fiends talked about. Even if he wasn't...three epic casters (including a necromancer) vs one? What challenge would he be? Strangely enough...V lost the necromancer.


and likewise I scoff at the continual references to Xykon somehow loopholing the promise because he's a Lich and not mortal. He fought Dorukan less than a year ago, a wizard of comprable power. Was Dorukan mortal? If he was, V should dwarf him and gain no XP from beating him.

We can't tell the relative powers of Dorukan. And it was more than a year ago. And Xykon won.


Do you really believe Xykon is comprable to Haerta?

No. But he may be.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

There is no indication the powers were "designed to fight a dragon". To suggest Maze and Gate were useless to V is also silly. I will leave it to someone more versed in D&D to mock you however, since all you offer in support of this claim is a flat statement. The rest of what you say is also just a bunch of single line assertions, most of which have been dealt with, and are completely ridiculous.

Before I bother to reply to another of your assertions, would you care to explain how Xykon would have defeated the ABD?

[Optimystik]

I agree with you for the most part Kyrt, but just took issue with these points:


Unfortuantely ...he didn't fight foolishly against Xykon. He was overconfident, but there wasn't one spell that he used which didn't have a purpose behind it.

You have objected to Chain Lightning for example as a poor choice. And overlooked the fact V cast it to get rid of those runes. Dimensional Anchor - to stop Xykon fleeing as V was till confident of victory.

V fought extremely foolishly - ignorance doesn't excuse ineptitude. Chain Lightning wasn't a bad choice, but Xykon being its primary target was. He has less excuse for this than you realize as well, since his ghostly advisors (to whom speaking is a free action) know that liches are immune to electricity. If he were less cocky he would have wisely asked his souls for advice on fighting them. V wasting a shot on Dimensional Anchor is yet another example of his arrogance overriding common sense.


Gate is a spell which is channelled. Are we expected to think V would be able to keep concentrating on the spell while somehow talking Xykon into stopping the battle and moving into the noce glowing rift?

V could perhaps call forth a creature to help him....but that would entail him having an actual knowledge of creatrues form other planes.

The channeled bit is only if the Gate is used for transport. For calling reinforcements (like Dorukan did in SoD), it is instant. Also, V himself states he has extensive knowledge of outsiders, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) a fact he proves while fighting the pit fiend, so he surely had numerous options to bring through a gate... the least of which would be a pit fiend of his own.

[Warren Dew]

Except it appeared he was planning on using similar tactics as those employed so successfully against the ABD (a time stop combo).

The time stops were actually used in very different ways in the two battles.

Against the dragon, Vaarsuvius did not open with the time stop. Rather, Vaarsuvius waited until the most opportune moment - when it was clear the dragon was about to do a melee attack - to cast the time stop, then used the opportunity to cast a mix of defensive spells and offensive spells perfectly suited to the situation the dragon had created. The fire shield, for example, caused the dragon's subsequent melee attacks to cause far more damage to the dragon herself than to Vaarsuvius.

Against Xykon, Vaarsuvius didn't bother to let the situation develop at all. As a result, the time stop, even if it had gone off, would likely have been largely wasted on spells inappropriate to the situation.

[derfenrirwolv]

Against Xykon, Vaarsuvius didn't bother to let the situation develop at all. As a result, the time stop, even if it had gone off, would likely have been largely wasted on spells inappropriate to the situation.

Most likely, V being V would have droped 7 or so delayed blast fireballs ... and done nothing to xykon. It would have killed redcloak though, which probably would have cost Xykon the fight in the long run.

[JeptCloak]

Most likely, V being V would have droped 7 or so delayed blast fireballs ... and done nothing to xykon. It would have killed redcloak though, which probably would have cost Xykon the fight in the long run.

We have no idea exactly what Xykon's item makes him immune to. It could be fire, or it could be that specific spell, or a number of things, not all of which necessarily make delayed blast fireball useless... it certainly wouldn't make gate useless, nor buffs. and like you say, Redcloak is dead as a doornail in this time.

[jere7my]

I mentioned in another thread that two wizards and a sorceror merely of level 20, all bound together, would likely dwarf the "raw power" of any arcane caster who ever lived. They'd have, as a baseline, 14 spell slots of each level; a sorceror maxes out at only 6 spell slots of each level, and a wizard at 4. (Correct me if I've gotten the rules confused here — I only have 3rd edition books. But I think the principle applies.) That's two to three times the raw power, if you're considering spell slot levels as raw power — which makes sense to me, since that's about as raw as you can get. Epic spells, bonuses, and feats grow very slowly after level 20, so the same issue applies — three casters would pile up the raw power in a few levels that it would take a single caster many levels to accumulate. Because spell slots plateau at level 20, it's pretty easy to stack a few spellcasters in the low 20s to make something that "dwarfs the raw power" of any other single spellcaster.

This doesn't mean that three ~20th-level spellcasters would defeat the most powerful arcane caster who ever lived, because the powerful caster would be able to do more in any given round, as well as having better saves and whatnot. Raw power doesn't necessarily determine the winner — it'd be like having a car full of guns, only one of which you can use at a time, against a Green Beret with a single weapon. Vaarsuvius failed to make this distinction, and is paying the price.

Another example: it used to be that characters stopped getting hit dice after a certain level, and just added a flat hit point bonus with each level. A 10th level fighter would get 10d10 hit points, but at 12th level he'd only have 10d10+2. So a few 10th-level fighters spliced together would have 30d10 hit points, compared to 10d10+20 for a single 30th-level fighter. (Something like that — I'm not gonna go look up the numbers.) The three fighters' raw hit points would "dwarf" the 30th-level fighter's, but that's not a very good measure of combat ability.

[KyrtFurey]

V fought extremely foolishly - ignorance doesn't excuse ineptitude. Chain Lightning wasn't a bad choice, but Xykon being its primary target was.

Which was because V didn't know about Liches. For all he knew, liches were highly vulnerable to magic. One of the slices didn't seem to know either. Not that they were advising him.


If he were less cocky he would have wisely asked his souls for advice on fighting them. V wasting a shot on Dimensional Anchor is yet another example of his arrogance overriding common sense.

As I said, the main flaw he shows here is not in his choice of spells...its his overconfidence. He didn't ask for advice. He didn't wait for the group to help. He didn't envisage a scenario where Xykon wouldn't want to flee.


The channeled bit is only if the Gate is used for transport.

I know...but someone brought up the possibility of using a Gate of Planar Shift or similar spells to move Xykon to a Plane of positive light, for example.


Also, V himself states he has extensive knowledge of outsidersa fact he proves while fighting the pit fiend, so he surely had numerous options to bring through a gate... the least of which would be a pit fiend of his own.

His first choice of spells against the pit fiend was to try and blast him. Vs also tied sleep spells against elves and other such nonsense. I'd question his knowlegde of outsiders, but even then...V has never really shown any ability to actually plan a fight. He just blasts.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

No, it was suggested V epic teleport him to the plane of light after buffing against it, which Ganeron should be able to do on the first round. End fight.

[JeptCloak]

I mentioned in another thread that two wizards and a sorceror merely of level 20, all bound together, would likely dwarf the "raw power" of any arcane caster who ever lived. They'd have, as a baseline, 14 spell slots of each level; a sorceror maxes out at only 6 spell slots of each level, and a wizard at 4. (Correct me if I've gotten the rules confused here — I only have 3rd edition books. But I think the principle applies.) That's two to three times the raw power, if you're considering spell slot levels as raw power — which makes sense to me, since that's about as raw as you can get. Epic spells, bonuses, and feats grow very slowly after level 20, so the same issue applies — three casters would pile up the raw power in a few levels that it would take a single caster many levels to accumulate. Because spell slots plateau at level 20, it's pretty easy to stack a few spellcasters in the low 20s to make something that "dwarfs the raw power" of any other single spellcaster.

This doesn't mean that three ~20th-level spellcasters would defeat the most powerful arcane caster who ever lived, because the powerful caster would be able to do more in any given round, as well as having better saves and whatnot. Raw power doesn't necessarily determine the winner — it'd be like having a car full of guns, only one of which you can use at a time, against a Green Beret with a single weapon. Vaarsuvius failed to make this distinction, and is paying the price.

Another example: it used to be that characters stopped getting hit dice after a certain level, and just added a flat hit point bonus with each level. A 10th level fighter would get 10d10 hit points, but at 12th level he'd only have 10d10+2. So a few 10th-level fighters spliced together would have 30d10 hit points, compared to 10d10+20 for a single 30th-level fighter. (Something like that — I'm not gonna go look up the numbers.) The three fighters' raw hit points would "dwarf" the 30th-level fighter's, but that's not a very good measure of combat ability.

In which case he should be able to get XP. No reasonable interpretation of the words used would reach that conclusion. Except a poorly written one.

[KyrtFurey]

In which case he should be able to get XP. No reasonable interpretation of the words used would reach that conclusion. Except a poorly written one.

No.

Putting it simply, XP is absed ont eh challeneg of the encounter.

If V won an encounter, he'd gain XP based on the challenge.

Alone, 1 on 1, he'd probably get a fair amount of XP.

Teamed up with 3 high level epic class casters? There is little in this world that would be a challenge to such a group and hence they would get no XP. Or at best, very little.

V was going to get very little XP from this gestalt because he simply outclassed just about anything mortal. Hence, the clarification that it was technically possible, albeit unlikely.

Xykon...on the other hand, defeated two epic casters, again potentially even stronger than he was, and a L14. That's worth loads of XP for him. He probably even gets a bonus for all the putdowns he got to say. its not everybody who gets to call two epic casters "losers".

:)

Different challenge levels resulted in different XP rewards. V should have won vs Xykon...he didn't.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

So, your thesis is that xykon was worth XP to V, despite the fact it was entirely foreseeable that he'd fight xykon. Let's leave aside the lunacy of that statement for a minute, and all the reasons it contradicts things we've been told on any sensible reading (dwarf any acrane user to ever live in the multiverse, "ultimate arcane power", beings capable of doing something like familicide, etc).

Just answer me this one question, is it your belief that Xykon could have taken on the ABD? This is more important than you think, because the fiends are saying "well, you won't get any XP from fighting this dragon", yet you want us to believe he would from a lesser/comprable opponent. And this has nothing to do with "paper,scissors, rock", because I'm pretty sure a Dragon with an AMF and 7th lvl spells is a hell of alot more dangerous to an elf spellcaster than a lich spellcaster, where the primary consideration is magic v.s magic.

[jere7my]

Different challenge levels resulted in different XP rewards. V should have won vs Xykon...he didn't.

Right. Xykon wasn't a challenge to Vaarsuvius until she made him into one. If she'd gone there straight from the island, she'd've made short work of him. Unfortunately, you don't get more XPs for making an encounter more challenging by going into it half-cocked, half-asleep, and half-depleted — you just make it harder to earn the same number of XPs.

[KyrtFurey]

No, it was suggested V epic teleport him to the plane of light after buffing against it, which Ganeron should be able to do on the first round. End fight.

You are suggesting Gs Epic teleport allows for inter planar travel without any evidence it does.

You are actually thinking of Plane Shift. Which of course requires coming into range of Xykons touch attacks and hoping the spell affects Xykon. Plane Shift also requires a focus...which V wouldn't have.

Which would be another apsect where V could have been in trouble. Mayeb he wanted to cast all these spells...maybe he just didn't have the components. So, he used spells for which he had the components and focii.

EJL

[jere7my]

So, your thesis is that xykon was worth XP to V, despite the fact it was entirely foreseeable that he'd fight xykon.

No. Xykon would not have been a challenge if Vaarsuvius had gone after him at full power; thus, no XPs. Just because she went in when she'd lost her most powerful soul, used up a lot of high-level spells, and was lost in a haze of sleep deprivation and willpower, that doesn't mean she gets more XP; it means she makes it more likely that she'll lose.

A thirtieth-level fighter who's lost his armor and weapons and is down to one hit point doesn't get any XP for killing a kobold, even if the kobold is a creditable threat. (That's an exaggeration for effect; the principle is sound.)

[JeptCloak]

Firstly, having a "material focus" is seldom used. You need one of those for shapeshifting too, but it's not at all clear any of the splices had it. Second, we don't know what Epic Teleport allows for, it may well allow for interplanar travel. At any rate, it was simply one of many suggestions for kicking Xykon to a curb. Nobody checks to see if fireballs need Bat Guana either btw...

As for Jeremy7, I am not disagreeing so much with you on the core point. I think it certainly has changed how easily V should have won. But you're going from a situation where V was so far above it was worth zilch XP, to a situation where V is less powerful (at least according to some people in this thread). Now the first thing is that this requires Haerta to be stronger than Xykon at the minimum, which you haven't addressed. A gesalt of V plus 3 people lower than Xykon should be able to gain XP from beating someone who is clearly more powerful than them (aside from all the other reasons Xykon should be weaker by a large margin than at least 2 of them).

I can just about buy V being an idiot, and that Jephton is about xykon's level (which seems to have been retrospectively bumped from 21-22 all the way up to 26-30ish). But there's ample evidence Ganeron, and especially Haerta, are well above him. Otherwise V would have gained XP.

[jere7my]

and all the reasons it contradicts things we've been told on any sensible reading (dwarf any acrane user to ever live in the multiverse

I explained above why "dwarfing" raw arcane power doesn't actually mean much. It sounds good, and both you and Vaarsuvius seem to have been impressed by it, but if "raw arcane power" means spell slots (and that's one perfectly good interpretation), it's quite easy for three relatively weak casters to "dwarf the raw arcane power" of a very powerful wizard without actually having any chance against him. Ten thousand wands of fireball would "dwarf the raw arcane power" of a thirtieth-level wizard, but you can still only fire off one fireball per round.

Note I'm not saying anything about XPs and effective level here — just explaining why that particular piece of the hard sell isn't as shiny as it looks.

[JeptCloak]

I explained above why "dwarfing" raw arcane power doesn't actually mean much. It sounds good, and both you and Vaarsuvius seem to have been impressed by it, but if "raw arcane power" means spell slots (and that's one perfectly good interpretation), it's quite easy for three relatively weak casters to "dwarf the raw arcane power" of a very powerful wizard without actually having any chance against him. Ten thousand wands of fireball would "dwarf the raw arcane power" of a thirtieth-level wizard, but you can still only fire off one fireball per round.

Note I'm not saying anything about XPs and effective level here — just explaining why that particular piece of the hard sell isn't as shiny as it looks.

I haven't disagreed that you could interpret it that way, I simply think that would be a ridiculous way of reading it (almost as bad as "he would be a dwarf to them"). It's not really helpful to keep saying something that nobody has disagreed with, it just encourages the people who ignore what is being written. I've said the whole way through you "could" read it that way, simply that it's ridiculous to do so. Especially when you consider the points you seem desperate to avoid addressing:
1) You will be so far above, you can't earn XP,
2) "ultimate power" says Oracle (assuming this is it),
3) Familicide, conquerer of "world after world", strongest evil splices they have, etc, etc.
And of course, you add to that the promise that the power will dwarf any arcane user to have ever lived, and you've got a situation where to read it as you've suggested seems to be to wilfully misunderstand the story as it is being presented to us/bad writing.

[jere7my]

As for Jeremy7, I am not disagreeing so much with you on the core point. I think it certainly has changed how easily V should have won. But you're going from a situation where V was so far above it was worth zilch XP, to a situation where V is less powerful (at least according to some people in this thread). Now the first thing is that this requires Haerta to be stronger than Xykon at the minimum, which you haven't addressed. A gesalt of V plus 3 people lower than Xykon should be able to gain XP from beating someone who is clearly more powerful than them (aside from all the other reasons Xykon should be weaker by a large margin than at least 2 of them).

I can just about buy V being an idiot, and that Jephton is about xykon's level (which seems to have been retrospectively bumped from 21-22 all the way up to 26-30ish). But there's ample evidence Ganeron, and especially Haerta, are well above him. Otherwise V would have gained XP.

Your basic point is reasonable, and it is this: if something is a challenge, you should get XP for it. Xykon is clearly a challenge for Vaarsuvius, and yet the fiends said she'd get no XP for him. Why is this?

Well, I agree that any one of the three arcane casters would be more powerful than Xykon (except possibly for Jephthon, who has looked like a tool from his first introduction). If Ganonron had been in the driver's seat, and actually wanted V to win, and gone after Xykon immediately after leaving the island, I think he would've won handily. Unfortunately, V is not thinking at all clearly — Dimensional Anchor is a big arrow labelled "HUBRIS" here — and is making poor decisions. (This is, I would argue, the point of the character arc.) The splice gets harder to hold onto as time goes on, and the strain on V's concentration has been growing; thus, she made something into a challenge that shouldn't have been at all challenging.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

right after they tell him his power will dwarf any arcane user who ever lived, they tell him this is a once in a lifetime opporunity, and that's from the whole history of the multiverse. So unless you want to be silly with the words again, it's pretty clear what they're talking about here.

I'm not sure I fully follow your logic.

The IFCC is saying that a three way splice (involving a representative of each alignment of the lower planes) is a once in a lifetime opportunity (multiversal lifetime).

That doesn't seem so much to gauge the power in relation to the multiverse as a whole, but simply the extreme rarity of such a deal.


Sure, Ganeron doesn't have to have conquer literally 1000 worlds, but "world after world" implies as hell of alot more than 2, and he's also described as a conquerer.

Well, a person who conquered just one world would also be a conqueror. But yes, he most likely conquered more then two. It's just that don't know the age or nature of those worlds though. Were they all like the OotS world? Were they more like the English Empire sending lots of armies to quell native populations no where near their level of power or technology? Or a mix?


Plus, he has to stay alive from threats to his person, in the same way Xykon is being randomly attacked by people, and he's only got 1 city. I can't see Xykon even conquering this one, he's lucky he hasn't been killed several times already.

Though it helps with Xykon that he is frequently at hand, being an almost lead from the front type, because that lets him have more fun.

I mean the very first time he lost to the Order he was letting them get close on purpose.

Still, in Ganonron's case the whole "vast armies" would likely figure into staying alive from threats to his person.


He has less excuse for this than you realize as well, since his ghostly advisors (to whom speaking is a free action) know that liches are immune to electricity.

Well, one of them at least. And they aren't advisers. They are batteries V is using to boost himself that can also talk.


If he were less cocky he would have wisely asked his souls for advice on fighting them.

And we can assume the epic evil souls forced to serve V would happily offer sound tactical advice? Like with the dragon? Dodge left! No right! No...


V wasting a shot on Dimensional Anchor is yet another example of his arrogance overriding common sense.

Exactly. V was certain he could win, and that Xykon would try to flee, which shows V underestimated Xykon massively. Even in 653 V is still saying "My power... EXCEEDS yours!!"


Also, V himself states he has extensive knowledge of outsiders,

Actually he says denizens of the underworld, in response to Roy's query about spirits.

And of course he could be exaggerating, since this is V.


No, it was suggested V epic teleport him to the plane of light after buffing against it, which Ganeron should be able to do on the first round. End fight.

Before or after V gets zapped by the traps and fails a concentration check?


The time stops were actually used in very different ways in the two battles.

I didn't say V was going to use it the same way, just that time stop was a spell V had used once as a vital part of his previous victory, and looked to be trying to replicate that with Xykon.


Against Xykon, Vaarsuvius didn't bother to let the situation develop at all. As a result, the time stop, even if it had gone off, would likely have been largely wasted on spells inappropriate to the situation.

Which would speak of overconfidence. V had just done in an ABD, in part through a sensible use of time stop. V was going to try to dominate again with time stop, failing to realize a lich like Xykon, with a home ground advantage, is a different beast entirely.


There is no indication the powers were "designed to fight a dragon".

True, but it seems their spell selection was already set, so it was either optimized for a main objective or intended as an all round selection with no real purpose in mind.

The possibility of the former being likely could be the fact that the soul splice was taken by V for the specific purpose of saving his family from an ABD with some caster levels.


How exactly would Xykon react to what a guy with a multidimensional empire has to react to? Constant resistance and assassination attempts from all the worlds you're crushing, which would include dragons, epic monsters, epic wizards and paladins, etc. None of which are going to necessarily fight one at a time.

See, now you're writing your own background for Ganonron. We have no idea if he had to deal with all that or not.

And once again it seems to place an emphasis on Ganonron alone. Two words: Vast. Armies.

[KyrtFurey]

So, your thesis is that xykon was worth XP to V

No. My thesis is that what the fiend said about XP was correct.

V would earn XP if he found an encounter of a sufficicently high challenge rating.

Xykon may or may not have been worth XP to him. Probably not.


Just answer me this one question, is it your belief that Xykon could have taken on the ABD? This is more important than you think, because the fiends are saying "well, you won't get any XP from fighting this dragon", yet you want us to believe he would from a lesser/comprable opponent. And this has nothing to do with "paper,scissors, rock", because I'm pretty sure a Dragon with an AMF and 7th lvl spells is a hell of alot more dangerous to an elf spellcaster than a lich spellcaster, where the primary consideration is magic v.s magic.

You don't seem to understand what people are telling you. And for someone with little understanding of the mechnaics, you've gotten very nitpicky and personal over rules ands scenarios other people with more familiairity seem to accept.

This XP is a perfect example becauyse it shows you have little or no understanding of how XP is rewarded. V gets little XP because he has more than enough power to blast his way through almost anything in the world with little effort. Its not a challenge. If there were an encoiiunter challenging enough..he would get XP from it. That's what the fiends say. That's how the rules work.

Lets say V has an encounter that earns him 100 XP. Now, have the same encounter but give him a L20 buddy. is the encounter challenging for him? No. So V gets nothing. Give him a L15 buddy instead. Now it is just easier...still a minor challenge. Both parties get 30XP.

And again, I see you persist in your belief that the ABD was more powerful than Xykon. People defeat dragons all the time. What makes you think the ABD was a more challenging opponent than Xykon? Theres really no way to know.

EJL

[JeptCloak]

Your basic point is reasonable, and it is this: if something is a challenge, you should get XP for it. Xykon is clearly a challenge for Vaarsuvius, and yet the fiends said she'd get no XP for him. Why is this?

Well, I agree that any one of the three arcane casters would be more powerful than Xykon (except possibly for Jephthon, who has looked like a tool from his first introduction). If Ganonron had been in the driver's seat, and actually wanted V to win, and gone after Xykon immediately after leaving the island, I think he would've won handily. Unfortunately, V is not thinking at all clearly — Dimensional Anchor is a big arrow labelled "HUBRIS" here — and is making poor decisions. (This is, I would argue, the point of the character arc.) The splice gets harder to hold onto as time goes on, and the strain on V's concentration has been growing; thus, she made something into a challenge that shouldn't have been at all challenging.

Yes, and that's interesting, but the premise of this thread is that Xykon is more powerful individually than the splices, so if you don't think so then you might want to flag that to stop encouraging people saying otherwise, as though their POV is reasonable. If you feel like giving a rough outline of Xykon's chances against the ABD, which V was explicitly told he'd get 0 XP for, that would also be welcome.

[jere7my]

I haven't disagreed that you could interpret it that way, I simply think that would be a ridiculous way of reading it (almost as bad as "he would be a dwarf to them"). It's not really helpful to keep saying something that nobody has disagreed with, it just encourages the people who ignore what is being written. I've said the whole way through you "could" read it that way, simply that it's ridiculous to do so. Especially when you consider the points you seem desperate to avoid addressing:
1) You will be so far above, you can't earn XP,
2) "ultimate power" says Oracle (assuming this is it),
3) Familicide, conquerer of "world after world", strongest evil splices they have, etc, etc.
And of course, you add to that the promise that the power will dwarf any arcane user to have ever lived, and you've got a situation where to read it as you've suggested seems to be to wilfully misunderstand the story as it is being presented to us/bad writing.

1) When Vaarsuvius first got the splice, she was indeed so powerful that she wouldn't earn any XP from defeating an ancient black dragon. Now, she's lost about half her power, and she's not thinking at all clearly. By the terms of the soul splice (apparently), her effective level is still very high, so she's still not earning XP, despite making things more difficult for herself.
2) "Ultimate power" has the same semantic problems as "raw arcane power". Having a huge reserve of arcane power (i.e., spell slots) gives you ultimate power, but you're still limited in how you can apply it.
3a) Familicide is a powerful spell, but epic spells are by their nature ridiculously powerful. I'm not equipped to work through all the mechanics here, and honestly I don't think Rich did either — this is a spell that exists because the plot needed it.
3b) Conquering "world after world" means, at minimum, he conquered two worlds. We don't know what the worlds were like. This doesn't give us any hard information. Alexander the Great just about conquered one world, and he didn't have any arcane power at all.
3c) We don't know how many souls each fiend commands. This also doesn't tell us anything.

Again, it's the nature of deals with the devil that they will make things appear better than they are, and gloss over details that are actually vitally important. This is the lens through which an audience should always examine deals with the devil — it's not willful misunderstanding to look for loopholes and technicalities in a trope that always includes loopholes and technicalities.

[JeptCloak]

Well, I can see there is no need to reply to KurtFuery anymore, since they deliberately ignore my points, and refuse to reply to the single question I asked them. I'll answer it for you btw, the answer is the Dragon would probably have crushed Xykon, or at least been a tough fight. Nobody has given a scenario for how Xykon would have done anything to it. Yet we're told V is so far above the dragon that it's worth 0 XP. We're in a world where V, Haley, Roy and Durkon killing Belkar as a team would be worth good XP, and yet V would get no XP for killing a Dragon who is at least as tough a foe as Xykon. Yet you want us believe Xykon is such an exception. That's what would need to be true for your "xykon could be stronger than the other souls" theory to be true. So without even addressing the other points, your argument falls down completely.

As for Cluthu...The Epic teleport into another plane/sun/whatever was being proposed if Xykon had fought Ganeron, so there'd be no failure of check and no trap. And I don't think I'm writing my own backstory for Ganeron, so much as interpreting what would be reasonable based on what we've been told. Ganeron needs to be strong enough to control this army which is capable of conquering world after world, and he has to be strong enough to defend himself from threats that multi-dimensional world conquering would bring about. Ganeron should be over lvl 30, but for all we know he could be anywhere from 30+ to 50+. That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that Xykon hasn't given us any reason whatever to beleive he could do the things Ganeron would need to be able to do to fit into any sensibly interpreted version of his backstory. There is considerable doubt Xykon could take the ABD, let alone a single Gold Dragon, let alone conquer a single world (so far he has one city and one dungeon to his name, and he had almost zero role in the city conquering, he was too busy being owned by some ghosts).

Xykon is awesome. He's clearly an epic character, and a very entertaining one. But he's never suggested he has power approaching what Haerta and Ganeron appear to have, and if he did the story would have no reasonable ending. Roy and the others have no hope of ever beating him basically.

[JeptCloak]

1) When Vaarsuvius first got the splice, she was indeed so powerful that she wouldn't earn any XP from defeating an ancient black dragon. Now, she's lost about half her power, and she's not thinking at all clearly. By the terms of the soul splice (apparently), her effective level is still very high, so she's still not earning XP, despite making things more difficult for herself.
2) "Ultimate power" has the same semantic problems as "raw arcane power". Having a huge reserve of arcane power (i.e., spell slots) gives you ultimate power, but you're still limited in how you can apply it.
3a) Familicide is a powerful spell, but epic spells are by their nature ridiculously powerful. I'm not equipped to work through all the mechanics here, and honestly I don't think Rich did either — this is a spell that exists because the plot needed it.
3b) Conquering "world after world" means, at minimum, he conquered two worlds. We don't know what the worlds were like. This doesn't give us any hard information. Alexander the Great just about conquered one world, and he didn't have any arcane power at all.
3c) We don't know how many souls each fiend commands. This also doesn't tell us anything.

Again, it's the nature of deals with the devil that they will make things appear better than they are, and gloss over details that are actually vitally important. This is the lens through which an audience should always examine deals with the devil — it's not willful misunderstanding to look for loopholes and technicalities in a trope that always includes loopholes and technicalities.

If your argument is that Haerta was much stronger than Xykon, but the other 2 might not be, you might want to say so, since people here have disputed as much. It's certainly a much more reasonable argument, though I'd say Ganeron also should be considerably stronger for everything to square. There is no reasonable way V could have not been facing a challenge if all 3 splice were below Xykon. The dragon would have been a challenge without doubt.

The rest has been covered before, except to say that Alexander the Great did not conquer "the world", or anything close to it, and if you want to assume that these worlds were all pitiful then I think the story has failed, and been poorly told. Fortunately the latest comic gives us plenty of reason to believe Ganeron was indeed powerful enough to back his rep.

[jere7my]

The rest has been covered before, except to say that Alexander the Great did not conquer "the world", or anything close to it, and if you want to assume that these worlds were all pitiful then I think the story has failed, and been poorly told.

My point is that the fiends' promises imply a great deal more than they actually promise. You said yourself, above, that "world after world" implies a heck of a lot more than two worlds. But this is a Faustian deal we're talking about — it's the nature of the beast that it sound a lot better than it is. You keep saying that it's bad storytelling if the fiends implied something that turns out to be only technically true; I say that that's the nature of this kind of story.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Well, I can see there is no need to reply to KurtFuery anymore,

Well, KyrtFurey did go into how the no-XP deal would work,


As for Cluthu...The Epic teleport into another plane/sun/whatever was being proposed if Xykon had fought Ganeron, so there'd be no failure of check and no trap.

Ok, good. Although V is not Ganonron.

And ultimately not all builds/classes/etc are equal. Ganonron in my oppinion is a few levels higher then Xykon. Not 20 or anything, but probably 5 at least.

Of course with experience (in character) good plans can be created if you are aware of your opponents weaknesses. So even if you are a lower level as long as you have the right tools you can win. Ganonron would have some good options - especially as epic teleport means he might be able to just send normally unbeatable foes somewhere else to die.

Which is why X's level 70 grass pokemon can still be beaten by a level 55 fire pokemon (sigh, sorry for Pokemon reference).


And I don't think I'm writing my own backstory for Ganeron, so much as interpreting what would be reasonable based on what we've been told.

But we haven't been told anything beyond he was the terror of a thousand planes who conquered world after world by transporting vast armies. If he started off taking over one strong world and then just conquered some worlds populated by cave men or goblins that would still hold true.


Ganeron needs to be strong enough to control this army which is capable of conquering world after world, and he has to be strong enough to defend himself from threats that multi-dimensional world conquering would bring about.

There are lots of different armies one can have in DnD, some harder and some easier to control then others (from undead to all kinds of constructs or outsides and everything in between). It also doesn't mention what kinds of general, lieutenants and other minions an Epic Conqueror would have had.


That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that Xykon hasn't given us any reason whatever to beleive he could do the things Ganeron would need to be able to do to fit into any sensibly interpreted version of his backstory.

But that is it - we don't have a back story for Ganonron beyond a brief rundown from the IFCC. So we are filling in the gaps and going for the highest level. If Ganonron conquered some worlds (5, 10, 20?) scattered around the multiverse then he must have been fending off epic threats from every direction.

For my part I accept, for now, what the IFCC said in regards to him, and accept he only has to be of the level necessary to cast epic transport so his armies can do the hard work in actually conquering and dealing with threats.


There is considerable doubt Xykon could take the ABD, let alone a single Gold Dragon, let alone conquer a single world (so far he has one city and one dungeon to his name, and he had almost zero role in the city conquering, he was too busy being owned by some ghosts).

And we don't have much proof Ganonron could do any of those things without an army either. Of course he can get off because he has an Epic Teleport which could allow him to get around things he can't beat by just sending them somewhere else to die or bringing in help.


Xykon is awesome. He's clearly an epic character, and a very entertaining one. But he's never suggested he has power approaching what Haerta and Ganeron appear to have, and if he did the story would have no reasonable ending. Roy and the others have no hope of ever beating him basically.

True, but there are different kinds of power. Ganonron went with vast armies to take over unknown worlds - thus his power projection was largely based others. Xykon is trying to get his hands on a creature that slices and dices entire pantheons of gods, and the biggest hitch in his plan so far has been the fact the Gates keep getting destroyed before he can do what needs to be done.

[KyrtFurey]

Firstly, having a "material focus" is seldom used. You need one of those for shapeshifting too, but it's not at all clear any of the splices had it.

One of them did have a headband.


Second, we don't know what Epic Teleport allows for, it may well allow for interplanar travel.

Yes. But as there is no evidence eihter way....it would be up to you to show that it did.


Nobody checks to see if fireballs need Bat Guana either btw...

And that would be one component V would have on hand. We don't know if V would have a small forked rod made of a suitable material.




But you're going from a situation where V was so far above it was worth zilch XP,

Never stated, but quite likely.


to a situation where V is less powerful (at least according to some people in this thread).

Thats actually obvious. V plus two souls is less powerful than V plus 3 souls.


Now the first thing is that this requires Haerta to be stronger than Xykon at the minimum, which you haven't addressed.

Why?


A gesalt of V plus 3 people lower than Xykon should be able to gain XP from beating someone who is clearly more powerful than them (aside from all the other reasons Xykon should be weaker by a large margin than at least 2 of them).

No. If a group of 4 poeple can easilty defeat a single person...they get no XP. Even if they would have got XP if they fought Xykon 1 on 1, the fact is as group they don't get the XP for the fight.

Mike Tyson is quite powerful, but you get 5 or so lads from down the street to fight him, he won't have a chance.


I can just about buy V being an idiot, and that Jephton is about xykon's level (which seems to have been retrospectively bumped from 21-22 all the way up to 26-30ish).

First.,..it is hard to retcon something which has never been proven or stated. Xykons levls has never been stated anywhere.

Second, even if it were 21-22, you keep ignoring the various methods he would have of actually performing the spells he cast.


But there's ample evidence Ganeron, and especially Haerta, are well above him. Otherwise V would have gained XP.

Theres no evidence at all. But I think I see yoiur problem. V didn't get XP because the gesalt were a group and so the challenge rating of any encounter - such as with Xykon - woudl ahve ensured a muich lower XP reward than if they fought Xykon alone.

EJL

[derfenrirwolv]

We have no idea exactly what Xykon's item makes him immune to. It could be fire, or it could be that specific spell, or a number of things, not all of which necessarily make delayed blast fireball useless... it certainly wouldn't make gate useless, nor buffs. and like you say, Redcloak is dead as a doornail in this time.

Xykon said if you're going to use area of effect spells, make sure you have a magic item that makes you immune to that TYPE of damage. That means fire sonic electricity, acid or cold (in this case, fire for the meteor swarm)

[JeptCloak]

Well, it wasn't a jade headband, nor do we normally get a clear indication they are using the compenents in many spells.

Back to the main points. Most of this has been addressed already, however 1 thing really needs to be smacked down at the start. The ridiculous "Mike Tyson" analogy. No, 5 guys from down the street would be killed by Mike Tyson. Similarly, in D&D land a guy with 3 other beings spliced into him, all of which are weaker than a arcane user with a more powerful form than you (Lich) will likely kill you, and represents a "challenge" by any reasonable analysis. I can't imagine any reasonable DM would claim otherwise, and I don't even play D&D. Others here who do have said the same thing. You keep talking about arcane totals dwarfing, which is a different argument. The argument he'd get no XP is different. Now, we've already been told in OOTS world 4 members of the order get decent XP for teaming up to kill Belkar. Each of these order members is at least as strong as Belkar at the time btw. Yet you propose that 4 characters teaming up with LESS strength than Xykon (Belkar) would get zero XP for beating him. It's flatly inconsistent with continuity to even someone with minimal D&D knowledge. Even if the 4 of them separated would beat him (and I don't know why we'd use this as the benchmark for a challenge, given they're not 4 people, they're only 1 person), they should get XP under the Roy,Haley,Durkon, V v.s Belkar precedent. Instead 0 XP. Meaning these splices, or at least one of them, is way above Xykon.

Now if you want to concede Haerta was way stronger, then there is an argument... it's an argument we've gone over before, but it exists. I've laid down by position quite clearly. But the above reasoning makes it preposterous that Xykon was stronger than all 3.

I've covered Ganeron. Plus, if Ganeron could Epic Teleport people stronger than him to their deaths, I suspect he'd gain alot of XP very quickly.

[Nerdanel]

I think this could be a case of a vastly inflated level adjustment in comparison to actual power.

Mystic Theurge has a ton of spells per day but is actually considered a weak prestige class that is inferior to both straight wizards and clerics. Nevertheless, a mystic theurge with total class level of X gets the exact same XP from encounters as a level X wizard or cleric would have. I think V with the soul-splice was a more extreme version of an arcane-only mystic theurge, except with far less in the way of synergy. He's like a crazy multiclass evoker/conjurer/necromancer/sorcerer (if such a thing were possible). In fact, the closest thing to the spliced V in standard D&D could be something silly like wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric, a combination that needs pure stupidity on the part of the player to pull off, so weak is it against level-appropriate encounters, despite the high power of the individual components. The ability to wipe low-level armies at ease with lots and lots of spells doesn't matter that much when there is no XP to be gained from them due to the high total character level.

V may have a ton of caster levels, but the evidence is that they don't stack with each other or provide that much in the way of synergy.

[Optimystik]

Which was because V didn't know about Liches. For all he knew, liches were highly vulnerable to magic. One of the slices didn't seem to know either. Not that they were advising him.

One knew at least that they are immune to electricity. Had V consulted them before launching his attack he might have been able to use a different area spell that would actually affect Xykon, or even use a focused attack to take the mooks out of the fight if he knew he had nothing that could seriously affect Xykon. I also don't see the value of removing the symbol-traps, since they were already discharged, so chain lightning was tactically unnecessary.


As I said, the main flaw he shows here is not in his choice of spells...its his overconfidence. He didn't ask for advice. He didn't wait for the group to help. He didn't envisage a scenario where Xykon wouldn't want to flee.

I agree that hubris was his downfall, but his spell choice was far less inspired than you indicated. You said every spell he cast "had a purpose behind it," which is certainly accurate since he was mainly blasting (the purpose therefore being straight nuking), but even when he found a blast that worked (sunburst), he didn't stick with it.


I know...but someone brought up the possibility of using a Gate of Planar Shift or similar spells to move Xykon to a Plane of positive light, for example.

You can't send someone through a Gate like you can with Plane Shift. It just creates a hole in the air leading somewhere else, Xykon would still have to walk (or be tossed) through it.


His first choice of spells against the pit fiend was to try and blast him. Vs also tied sleep spells against elves and other such nonsense. I'd question his knowlegde of outsiders, but even then...V has never really shown any ability to actually plan a fight. He just blasts.

He's an evoker, blasting is what he does. But he at least knew enough about Pit Fiends to know he shouldn't waste his primsatic spray on it until after its saving throws were lowered.

[Volkov]

For Jebus sake, stop quoting Xykon's immortality as a reason that he loopholes the contract. It's only relevant if there was some possibility Xykon was the most powerful arcane user of all time, or close. Given Haerta was mortal, and she appears to have been substantially stronger than him, it's moot. Likewise, Dorukan was comprable to him, and he was mortal. So it should dwarf xykon regardless.

There is not clear evidence he's immune to all forms of heat damage, it's unclear exactly what sort of immunity the item gives him... it's an example, there are plenty of other ways to own Xykon.

Only undead or construct wizards have a hope against Xykon, living wizards will be energy drained to the nine hells, then to the gray wastes, then to the abyss, and then all the way back to the material plane.

[lord_khaine]

Only undead or construct wizards have a hope against Xykon, living wizards will be energy drained to the nine hells, then to the gray wastes, then to the abyss, and then all the way back to the material plane.

you forgot to include wizards with ½ a brain there, energy drain is a ray, meaning that anyone who bothers putting a bit of defence up stand a chance, as long as they are in the same weight class as Xykon.

that aside, why do people have the idea that Jephton is less powerfull than Xykon?

[Volkov]

you forgot to include wizards with ½ a brain there, energy drain is a ray, meaning that anyone who bothers putting a bit of defence up stand a chance, as long as they are in the same weight class as Xykon.

that aside, why do people have the idea that Jephton is less powerfull than Xykon?

Intelligence doesn't give you common sense, that's wisdom's area of expertise. Guess what, wisdom is a pretty common dump stat for wizards as it has nearly nothing of value to them.

[Dark Matter]

Somethings to point out,

1) Sunburst is 8th level, but Empowered Sunburst is at least 9th and probably 10th (depending on feats). Ergo it had to come from the Wizard, and we did see him cast other high level spells (Quicken'ed Disin for example).

2) We have no idea which spells came from the Sorcerer. Anything that didn't have meta-magic was a serious possibility.

3) V came VERY close to losing against the ABD.

The Dragon ate V and then paused and congratulated herself.

If she'd instead cast Anti-Magic again (she's a Sorcerer, she could have), then V would have lost all her buffs, and died right there.

[Volkov]

Somethings to point out,

1) Sunburst is 8th level, but Empowered Sunburst is at least 9th and probably 10th (depending on feats). Ergo it had to come from the Wizard, and we did see him cast other high level spells (Quicken'ed Disin for example).

2) We have no idea which spells came from the Sorcerer. Anything that didn't have meta-magic was a serious possibility.

3) V came VERY close to losing against the ABD.

The Dragon ate V and then paused and congratulated herself.

If she'd instead cast Anti-Magic again (she's a Sorcerer, she could have), then V would have lost all her buffs, and died right there.
Actually another Breath weapon or heck even another Anti-magic field around herself would do in Vaarsuvius.

Of all the monsters, only Golems, Colossi, Demiliches, and Beholders are more deadly foes than non-epic/advanced dragons for wizards/sorcerers, because three of these are impervious to pretty much any damage dealing magic, and one of these can neutralize a wizard by just looking at him, and then bite him to pieces.

[GoC]

Xykon's strategy is pretty foolproof: You can win any caster fight (against a living enemy) with dispels and level drains. Remove their protection and hit them with something unresistable that makes them weaker. Repeat until harmless/dead.
No. Anyone who gets to epic levels knews you should go around with that little clasp that absorbs energy drain and death effects. As well as a ring of spell absorbtion/reflection.

Intelligence gives you tactics.

[KyrtFurey]

One knew at least that they are immune to electricity. Had V consulted them before launching his attack he might have been able to use a different area spell that would actually affect Xykon, or even use a focused attack to take the mooks out of the fight if he knew he had nothing that could seriously affect Xykon. I also don't see the value of removing the symbol-traps, since they were already discharged, so chain lightning was tactically unnecessary.

What makes you think they were "discharged" as opposed to activated every round? Its arguable they were, but they'd already interrupted V once. Could she take the chance that they would trigger again next round and disrupt that spell?

As for the primary target...yes, one splice knew. But...he wasn't telling, V wasn't asking and there was little time for a debate on strategy.


I agree that hubris was his downfall, but his spell choice was far less inspired than you indicated. You said every spell he cast "had a purpose behind it," which is certainly accurate since he was mainly blasting (the purpose therefore being straight nuking), but even when he found a blast that worked (sunburst), he didn't stick with it.

Which assumes he prepared two such spells. As it is, he followed up the sunburst with a dimensional anchor to stop Xykon escaping, a Crushing Hand to stop the energy drain and a Disintegrate which would be potentially more damaging.



You can't send someone through a Gate like you can with Plane Shift. It just creates a hole in the air leading somewhere else, Xykon would still have to walk (or be tossed) through it.

That was my point.


He's an evoker, blasting is what he does. But he at least knew enough about Pit Fiends to know he shouldn't waste his primsatic spray on it until after its saving throws were lowered.

Yes. After he'd seen his other spells have no effect. We can surmise that either he had no knowledge of pitfiends but saw that he needed something to ensure his other spells worked, or that he had knowledge of pit fiends and tried his other spells anyway.

EJL

[Optimystik]

No. Anyone who gets to epic levels knews you should go around with that little clasp that absorbs energy drain and death effects. As well as a ring of spell absorbtion/reflection.

Intelligence gives you tactics.

Disjunction. It's a dispel (which I mentioned in my post.)

What then?


What makes you think they were "discharged" as opposed to activated every round? Its arguable they were, but they'd already interrupted V once. Could she take the chance that they would trigger again next round and disrupt that spell?

As for the primary target...yes, one splice knew. But...he wasn't telling, V wasn't asking and there was little time for a debate on strategy.

We're actually agreeing, so there's little reason to continue this argument. My argument was that V was foolish, and not asking his epic teammates for ideas on fighting liches before popping up under one's nasal cavity falls under that heading.

As for the Pit Fiend, I only brought that up to show that even if he didn't know a single other outsider to Gate in to help out, he knew of that one from having battled it personally. But no, he thought he could handle Xykon and his lackeys all at once; more foolish behavior.

[David Argall]

My argument was that V was foolish, and not asking his epic teammates for ideas on fighting liches before popping up under one's nasal cavity falls under that heading.

We have those epic fellows voicing full confidence in V's plan to just pop in and blast. While we can deem this just another aspect of the author's attempt to just make Xykon look awesome by not having these epic casters tell him how to plan the attack, the idea that pausing to listen to the voices would have improved matters much seems questionable.

[KyrtFurey]

Well, it wasn't a jade headband, nor do we normally get a clear indication they are using the compenents in many spells.

And yet it is mentioned. Asfor the headband...We don't know what type it is. It may be jade. Sure...its not green...but maybe jade is still part of its construction. Or it may be made of Brown Jade.


No, 5 guys from down the street would be killed by Mike Tyson.

So...you don't think that numbers are a great equaliser? There is no situation where a team of 4 will have an easier time overcoming an obstacle than a single person on his own?


Similarly, in D&D land a guy with 3 other beings spliced into him, all of which are weaker than a arcane user with a more powerful form than you (Lich) will likely kill you, and represents a "challenge" by any reasonable analysis.

Yes. That is correct. The trouble being that nothing (or very little) is a challenge for him.

People defeating V would get XP because, as gestalt of 3 or 4 souls, he is very powerful and thus a challenge. V, as a gestalt of 3 or 4 souls, would not get XP because he is powerful...and thus there is little that would challenge him.


I can't imagine any reasonable DM would claim otherwise, and I don't even play D&D. Others here who do have said the same thing. You keep talking about arcane totals dwarfing, which is a different argument. The argument he'd get no XP is different.


Now, we've already been told in OOTS world 4 members of the order get decent XP for teaming up to kill Belkar.

Really? Where?


and I don't know why we'd use this as the benchmark for a challenge, given they're not 4 people, they're only 1 person)

Because the splices have been shown as a gestalt. V didn't suddenly increase in level. What she got was three epic casters following her around and obeying her. This results in a being slightly less powerful than the four separately...there is a logjam in that V can only cast so many spells around...but having all those spells slots, all that magic knowledge, etc all leads to an extremely powerful caster.

Anyone facing V is thus facing not only V....but G, J and H at the same time.


Now if you want to concede Haerta was way stronger, then there is an argument... it's an argument we've gone over before, but it exists. I've laid down by position quite clearly. But the above reasoning makes it preposterous that Xykon was stronger than all 3.

Haerta probably was stronger. There is, however, no way to find this out.


I've covered Ganeron. Plus, if Ganeron could Epic Teleport people stronger than him to their deaths, I suspect he'd gain alot of XP very quickly.

If he could that quickly...they wouldn't be a challenege and hence only a little XP.

EJL

[KyrtFurey]

One knew at least that they are immune to electricity. Had V consulted them before launching his attack he might have been able to use a different area spell that would actually affect Xykon, or even use a focused attack to take the mooks out of the fight if he knew he had nothing that could seriously affect Xykon. I also don't see the value of removing the symbol-traps, since they were already discharged, so chain lightning was tactically unnecessary.

What makes you think they were "discharged" as opposed to activated every round? Its arguable they were, but they'd already interrupted V once. Could she take the chance that they would trigger again next round and disrupt that spell?

As for the primary target...yes, one splice knew. But...he wasn't telling, V wasn't asking and there was little time for a debate on strategy.


I agree that hubris was his downfall, but his spell choice was far less inspired than you indicated. You said every spell he cast "had a purpose behind it," which is certainly accurate since he was mainly blasting (the purpose therefore being straight nuking), but even when he found a blast that worked (sunburst), he didn't stick with it.

Which assumes he prepared two such spells. As it is, he followed up the sunburst with a dimensional anchor to stop Xykon escaping, a Crushing Hand to stop the energy drain and a Disintegrate which would be potentially more damaging.



You can't send someone through a Gate like you can with Plane Shift. It just creates a hole in the air leading somewhere else, Xykon would still have to walk (or be tossed) through it.

That was my point.


He's an evoker, blasting is what he does. But he at least knew enough about Pit Fiends to know he shouldn't waste his primsatic spray on it until after its saving throws were lowered.

Yes. After he'd seen his other spells have no effect. We can surmise that either he had no knowledge of pitfiends but saw that he needed something to ensure his other spells worked, or that he had knowledge of pit fiends and tried his other spells anyway.

EJL

[Optimystik]

We have those epic fellows voicing full confidence in V's plan to just pop in and blast. While we can deem this just another aspect of the author's attempt to just make Xykon look awesome by not having these epic casters tell him how to plan the attack, the idea that pausing to listen to the voices would have improved matters much seems questionable.

They were confident because they had the ammunition necessary to make the fight even. Their demeanor changed considerably after being level drained. Popping in and blasting wasn't the bad idea; doing so without the right buffs was.

[JeptCloak]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

[JeptCloak]

Somethings to point out,

1) Sunburst is 8th level, but Empowered Sunburst is at least 9th and probably 10th (depending on feats). Ergo it had to come from the Wizard, and we did see him cast other high level spells (Quicken'ed Disin for example).

2) We have no idea which spells came from the Sorcerer. Anything that didn't have meta-magic was a serious possibility.

3) V came VERY close to losing against the ABD.

The Dragon ate V and then paused and congratulated herself.

If she'd instead cast Anti-Magic again (she's a Sorcerer, she could have), then V would have lost all her buffs, and died right there.

No. It was V's turn, so V shapeshifts. Even if it wasn't his turn, being devoured is apparently not necessarily harmful under d&D rules (so I've been told), and he can survive it just like Haley did, long enough to disjoin the magic field again, or to cast epic teleport, both of which would be likely to overcome the effects of the AMF based on the rules I've looked at.

[Optimystik]

No. It was V's turn, so V shapeshifts. Even if it wasn't his turn, being devoured is apparently not necessarily harmful under d&D rules (so I've been told), and he can survive it just like Haley did, long enough to disjoin the magic field again, or to cast epic teleport, both of which would be likely to overcome the effects of the AMF based on the rules I've looked at.

Minor nitpick: if the dragon had recast AMF and swallowed V, then V would be inside the field and thus unable to disjoin it. His epic spells might still work I believe.

[Dark Matter]

No. It was V's turn, so V shapeshifts.Maybe. Maybe not. That dragon certainly had enough time to reflect on her victory. She might have had an extra turn to cast anti-magic. She certainly had enough spell slots.


Even if it wasn't his turn, being devoured is apparently not necessarily harmful under d&D rules (so I've been told), and he can survive it just like Haley did, long enough to disjoin the magic field again, or to cast epic teleport, both of which would be likely to overcome the effects of the AMF based on the rules I've looked at.With his buffs he was still able to cast spells, but that was with his buffs. Without them, V's Concentration sucks, and he's probably going to be effectively grappled. He's probably got two epic teleports, I'm not sure you can fire up non-epic magic from inside an anti-magic field.

EDIT: No, he's just hosed.
"Still" let him cast Shapeshift even though he was grappled (presumably at least one of the epics had it), but Epic teleport didn't have Still. Normal teleport wouldn't work inside an anti-magic field.

[jere7my]

I think this could be a case of a vastly inflated level adjustment in comparison to actual power.

This is a good possibility, and one I was going to mention. We just don't know how the splice calculates levels; the exact wording is "Your effective level would be so high that it's pretty unlikely." I could see a DM saying to a level-15 wizard, "Okay, here's how the soul splice works: you'll get joined to three level-25 souls, which means your effective level will be 90 for purposes of gaining XP — i.e., you probably won't get any. This doesn't mean you'll be as powerful as a level-90 wizard, but it's how the splice works. Do you still want to take it?" The general theory is that a challenging encounter should provide XP, but DMs are free to bend that rule; this strikes me as a way to offer a player mopping-up-the-plot levels of power without leaving them inconveniently high-level at the end of it. It is an infernal deal, after all; denying a player XP would be one "catch".

(Note also that the fiend says it's "pretty unlikely," not impossible, that Vaarsuvius would gain XP — this suggests that there are challenges out there that could give V XP if she sought them out. Xykon could even be one, if the fiends thought (or pretended to think) V wouldn't go after him.)

[JeptCloak]

Firstly, it's plainly V's turn. Secondly, we know nothing about how epic teleport works, and whether he can or cannot do it Still or whether, like when he was a lizard, minimal hand movement, etc, is needed. So yeh, if you ignore facts V was boned. Back in the real world he should be fine. This is without even asking "what other epic spells do these guys have", which is important given Haerta is described as being able to kill "with but a thought", which implies some form of Momento Mori spell, something else that shouldn't require movement, or even an action. And before anyone says "MM wouldn't work" I said some form of that spell, which given how Haerta has developed Familicide might be stronger... actually, on re-reading the spell it's 160 HD, not HP, which means the dragon is completely toast.

As for the XP thing, it's a silly way to assume it works, since it defeats the point of something not being a challenge, and it flies in the face of what we've already been told about XP gathering, eg "even if there are 4 superior lvl'd characters killing one Belkar, they get XP". Your thesis would posit that even if Belkar had been higher level than the 4, they'd get no XP. Basically, if you need to invent stuff like this to get around all the things that were said, it becomes a gyp, and a lame story.

[jere7my]

As for the XP thing, it's a silly way to assume it works, since it defeats the point of something not being a challenge, and it flies in the face of what we've already been told about XP gathering, eg "even if there are 4 superior lvl'd characters killing one Belkar, they get XP". Your thesis would posit that even if Belkar had been higher level than the 4, they'd get no XP. Basically, if you need to invent stuff like this to get around all the things that were said, it becomes a gyp, and a lame story.

I know how XP works in D&D generally, which is what the joke in the Belkar strip was playing off of. I am saying we have no way of knowing how the splice works in terms of gaining XP, and what "effective level" means in this context. We don't need to invent anything; in fact, we need to not invent anything, in terms of making assumptions about things. The splice is not from D&D; it's a homebrew plot device, and the rules don't say anything about assigning XP to someone who is funneling the power of three other NPCs. All we know is that the fiends say V probably wouldn't get any XP from anything she was likely to face; we don't know the mechanics behind that, or whether it cleaves to the XP guidelines in the DMG. You can't use the splice to support assumptions about the powers of the three souls, because we don't know enough, in D&D terms, to draw up rules for it — that would be "inventing stuff."

It is incontrovertible that an ancient black dragon was not much of a challenge, which implies a lot of power. But we also know, thanks to the nit-picky fiend, that there are challenges out there that would allow V to gain XP, which puts a theoretical ceiling on that power. There's a lot of wiggle room for the plot between those two fences.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

One knew at least that they are immune to electricity. Had V consulted them before launching his attack he might have been able to use a different area spell that would actually affect Xykon, or even use a focused attack to take the mooks out of the fight if he knew he had nothing that could seriously affect Xykon.

V probably didn't trust them and was caught up in the "do it myself" kind of thing.

What he knew of the souls shouldn't have given him any faith they'd have given him good advice anyway. After all, they'd been advising him to do evil since the splice to everyone, one had broken away as soon as the opportunity arose and V had a moment of weakness, and other times (such as dodging the ABD breath attack) they couldn't agree.

If it were me in that position I'd be thinking "ignore them, they'll just try and mess me up if I give them the chance".


They were confident because they had the ammunition necessary to make the fight even. Their demeanor changed considerably after being level drained.

After they had their levels drained. It had to be a threat to them for them to suddenly get serious, and even then they didn't try telling V to maybe think about getting out or anything.

And they didn't seem worried when the splice ended and they got to go off free.

[Dark Matter]

Firstly, it's plainly V's turn.At best this is unproven. Another (more likely) explanation is that V lost his turn when he was eaten and acted on his NEXT turn.


Secondly, we know nothing about how epic teleport works, and whether he can or cannot do it Still or whether, like when he was a lizard, minimal hand movement, etc, is needed.You're showing a lack of familiarity with the rules.

V could cast Feather Fall (etc) as a lizard because they DIDN'T require hand movements. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm

Just like as a lizard, any spell that had any hand movements at all would be just flatly unusable. Spells without hand movements are extremely rare, and one of the only things we know about Epic Teleport is that it also requires hand movements. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm

Further, even if the Epic Wizard had Still (which is reasonably common), he couldn't have used meta-magic on an epic spell. "Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells

It's likely that the shapeshift + Still came from the Sorcerer, it's not an obvious one to prepare but it is an obvious feat to have.

So yeh, if you ignore facts V was boned. Back in the real world he should be fine.Not if we read the rules.


This is without even asking "what other epic spells do these guys have", which is important given Haerta is described as being able to kill "with but a thought", which implies some form of Momento Mori spell, something else that shouldn't require movement, or even an action.The Epic Slay Seed *also* requires hand movements. "Slay with a thought" implies she has the Silent Feat, the Still Feat, or both. A Silent Power Word Kill fits the bill quite nicely.

And none of those could be cast under the proposed situation. Again, no meta-magic on feats, the relevant seeds require movement, and the lesser spells can't be used inside of anti-magic.

V could have lost against the ABD... simply because of his poor tactics. In fact, he almost did.

[JeptCloak]

At best this is unproven. Another (more likely) explanation is that V lost his turn when he was eaten and acted on his NEXT turn.

You're showing a lack of familiarity with the rules.

V could cast Feather Fall (etc) as a lizard because they DIDN'T require hand movements. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm

Just like as a lizard, any spell that had any hand movements at all would be just flatly unusable. Spells without hand movements are extremely rare, and one of the only things we know about Epic Teleport is that it also requires hand movements. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm

Further, even if the Epic Wizard had Still (which is reasonably common), he couldn't have used meta-magic on an epic spell. "Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells

It's likely that the shapeshift + Still came from the Sorcerer, it's not an obvious one to prepare but it is an obvious feat to have.
Not if we read the rules.

The Epic Slay Seed *also* requires hand movements. "Slay with a thought" implies she has the Silent Feat, the Still Feat, or both. A Silent Power Word Kill fits the bill quite nicely.

And none of those could be cast under the proposed situation. Again, no meta-magic on feats, the relevant seeds require movement, and the lesser spells can't be used inside of anti-magic.

V could have lost against the ABD... simply because of his poor tactics. In fact, he almost did.

Or one could use the 30 seconds it takes to read this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/momentoMori.htm
And we know nothing of the sort about Epic Teleport. For all we know V/Ganeron just like making hand gestures for dramatic flair.
Nor is it clear why V would be unable to make the necessary hand gestures. Nor does being eaten with buffs on count as a turn, something we see when V shapeshifts right after.

[Dark Matter]

Or one could use the 30 seconds it takes to read this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/momentoMori.htmVery good. And yes, if you want, I'm willing to give that epic spell to her on a handwave, it fully seems in character and in description. Big problem. This supports my argument and not yours. Tactically V should have opened with it and *not* given the ABD a chance to kill her family or knock her out or whatever.

And we know nothing of the sort about Epic Teleport. For all we know V/Ganeron just like making hand gestures for dramatic flair.That's not the way to bet. We see hand movements http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html, most spells require them, the base seed also requires them.


Nor does being eaten with buffs on count as a turn, something we see when V shapeshifts right after."Right after" might still have been the next round.

And looking back at the comic, it's a quibble anyway. The Dragon closed, cast Finger of Death, then ate V. It could have cast AMS instead and then eaten her.

[JeptCloak]

It's a made up spell, we know nothing one way or the other. And the fact V wanted to show off is not an argument for V being an idiot, especially when she is so far beyond the ABD that it is no problem. Might as well save it for when you're in trouble. It's only a "tactical error" if you misguidedly believe V has 3 splices who are weaker than Xykon stuck to her... when a cat plays with a mouse, it's not a tactical error, because there is no way the mouse can ever hurt you. Judgements of tactics are only useful when someone is in a fight they could actually lose, which is why V was a completely out of character idiot v.s Xykon.

After all, it's not like V was smack talking, and trying to prolong the dragons suffering, all while being cheered on by the splices. Oh wait, that's exactly what happened. But V had all 3 splices and was never in danger. Even then, reasonable explanations have been given for how V got serious once s/he needed to. There is no reason for V to run around like an idiot v.s Xykon once Xykon starts doing well.

[Dark Matter]

It's a made up spell, we know nothing one way or the other. And the fact V wanted to show off is not an argument for V being an idiot, especially when she is so far beyond the ABD that it is no problem. Might as well save it for when you're in trouble.That's absurd. "Save it?" Not an idiot? V took damage from a breath weapon that she could have buffed against. V used Time Stop and various other 9th and 10th(!) level spells.

If we assume that she had an Epic "You're Dead" spell handy and didn't use it, then this was yet another reason she lost to Xykon. A second Time Stop could have won the game against Xykon.


It's only a "tactical error" if you misguidedly believe V has 3 splices who are weaker than Xykon stuck to her... when a cat plays with a mouse, it's not a tactical error, because there is no way the mouse can ever hurt you.That Dragon Could have realized she was going to die and used the breath weapon against V's family, killing all of them.

Would that have counted as "hurting V'?

Oh, wait, the Dragon could have simply killed them when V showed up even if it'd thought that it could still win. Make V suffer now, then Soul Bind them later. Fighting V would only take a few rounds, and it might even be able to make V watch the Bind in action.


Judgements of tactics are only useful when someone is in a fight they could actually lose, which is why V was a completely out of character idiot v.s Xykon.See previous statements for an examples on why V was consistently an idiot.

[JeptCloak]

None of this matters because all V's decisions are dictated by plot. If V had killed the dragon instantly, it would have made for a lame fight. If V had fought intelligently, he would have won, and the author decided Xykon was too badass to lose. Why any of this is relevant to the subject of the thread, ie "That Xykon could outpower the splices" is unclear. Discussions on whether V was an idiot are best made elsewhere if you are going to demand lengthly back and forth on a suject covered in depth elsewhere.

[GoC]

Disjunction. It's a dispel (which I mentioned in my post.)

What then?

Will saves.:smalltongue:

[Dark Matter]

None of this matters because all V's decisions are dictated by plot. If V had killed the dragon instantly, it would have made for a lame fight. If V had fought intelligently, he would have won, and the author decided Xykon was too badass to lose.Which is fine, except that this decision was made a LONG time ago and ergo V's been an idiot for a long time, possibly since day one.


Why any of this is relevant to the subject of the thread, ie "That Xykon could outpower the splices" is unclear.In a word, "plot". There's no point in giving V power less than Xykon if Rich is also going to handicap him/her with being an idiot as well.

Ergo V *was* granted an absurd amount of power, even compared to Xykon. And as long as we're going to give him that, we might as well make all three of the splices stronger than Xykon. The splices central flaws were all right above V's neck, this doesn't change that.

[David Argall]

They were confident because they had the ammunition necessary to make the fight even. Their demeanor changed considerably after being level drained. Popping in and blasting wasn't the bad idea; doing so without the right buffs was.
But the point still is that these experienced voices were not telling V "Wait a round or two and buff up." Instead, they were highly sure they would roll over Xykon without bothering with such buffs. We can't blame V for being excessively confident when those with greater experience are showing the same confidence.



I am saying we have no way of knowing how the splice works in terms of gaining XP, and what "effective level" means in this context.
We don't know precisely what it means. We do know it means that V has to be insanely powerful. Whether that means 70th level or 100th level, that is a guess. But we are not talking of a mere 30th level.



That dragon certainly had enough time to reflect on her victory.
Speech is a free action. We have no evidence here that the dragon is taking any time at all. What we do have is the normal D&D system... Dragon acts, swallowing V. Then it is V's turn and she Shapechanges.

[Emilinah Adams]

Let's take a step back and remember that the giant somewhere stated that none of the OOTS Heros are properly optimized and that he made them incompetent on purpose. 'V' was destined to lose for that very reason. No matter how much better the splice made her the fact is that she is incompetent and as stated the souls had as much influence on her as cheerleaders do on the outcome of a game. That being said the spliced souls were likely all stronger than Xykon but had no say on how the battle was fought. Some mention that if they were really that good they wouldn't be dead but that's not true is it. Each were likely the final objective of some other adventuring party and like Xykon when the OOTS strip concludes ended up dead at the end of an epic adventure. Not sure if we have any Bleach manga or anime fans here but think about how Ichigo lives with the hollow inside. The hollow is a better fighter than ichiho and enables him to use things like the black t(not gonna try to spell it) attack. Yet Ichigo supresses it and loses fights he shouldn't as a result. (not talking about the whole Vizard thing just making a point based on earlier stuff)

[Brom]

Ok, so I haven't read everything here, but I'm tempted to throw a few things out there befre I go offline.

Conjuration magic in 3.5 D&D isn't the most uber of things. The power you're bringing to bear damage-wise as an optimized Conjurer isn't as good, necessarily, as an optimized Evoker if you stick to core, and the utility is rarely up to an optimized Transmuter or a well rounded Sorcerer. Ganeron could have conquered worlds, still, however, not through the power of his summons, but through tactics and strategy. This is an intangible - he could have been just as successful whilst lacking personal power. As for the ''he had to have been powerful enough to survive assassination'' as a measure...

Well, look at Xykon. I think we're pretty clear that with the two souls plus V, Xykon should have been overpowered. But no: Xykon used a sound anti-caster strategy, a pair of high level casters to support him, and magical traps to blow out the surprise round, as well as a host of immunities and contingencies to deal with normal ways of enemy casters attacking. Who says Ganeron couldn't have had a large bodyguard contingent of demons that was tactically prepared to deal with assassinations? It wouldn't have required massive personal power on his part to survive, in that case. And as with most conquerers, after a while, shock and awe plus a reputation for success could have had worlds surrendering to him. Plus, who's to say the world V lives in is a good example of resistance to expect? I don't know. These just seem like shaky power gauges.

I think V failed because he got hasty and because he was counting on the sheer power he had. Relying on sheer power is how real world battles are lost, too.