making my own system/setting, need some comments

[nevered]

Basically: I got bored, and started designing my own system/setting (I don't know when designing a setting becomes designing a system. after you change the races? after you create new classes? whatever.)

to put it simply: i've never done this before, and don't know if i'm on the right track or not.

this is my first draft-ish, and basic initial thoughts.

be gentle



Stats
there are 10 minor stats and 5 major stats:

(Spirit)
will
mana
----
(Strength)
toughness
endurance
----
(Personability)
appearance
chrisma
----
(Dexterity)
speed
balance
----
(Intelligence)
knowledge
wisdom

I realize that some of these have definitions relative to setting, so for clarification:

mana - innate sense of the natural and unnatural laws and order of the universe
knowledge - gathered and accumulated information
wisdom - ability to extrapolate new information from given information

when your character is created, they are given a specific number for each of the minor stats based on race and class. they are also allowed to roll dice for the major stats. that number is then divided between the minor stats it covers

-ex: If I were a Kellan Mystic, i would get a will of 7 and a mana of 8, and a Spirit roll of (d8)=6. the 6 would be divided as I choose between will and mana. (I could split it 3&3, or I could give all 6 to one)

the purpose of major and minor stats is mostly convenience. your (strength) stat is your toughness and endurance stats combined

-ex when lifting a boulder you will be asked to make a die roll depending on your (strength) and will.


Classes

there are 5 lower classes, and 10 higher classes

at the beginning of the game, you are asked to choose between 5 classes:

Acolyte
Mystic
Merchant
Thief
Fighter

at a level (as of yet undetermined), you will be offered a choice of three classes depending on your current class.

these higher classes are:
Lord
Con artist
Spy
Assassin
Weaponmaster
Element
Rotted
Wraith
Illusionist
Commander

each class has three options, and many of the options overlap

-ex: A fighter can choose: Assassin, Weaponmaster, Element. A Mystic has the choice of Wraith, Rotted, Element

http://www.gregoryandrus.com/images/wheel.jpg
sorry about the sloppy handwriting, but: the inner 5 are the lower, the outer 10 are the higher. the arrows connecting them are pretty self explanatory


Class descriptions:

Acolyte: Offensive and Defensive external Magics
Merchant: Dealing with others, defense
Thief: trickery and sleight of hand
Fighter: hacking and slashing
Mystic: Offensive and defensive internal magics

Illusionist: Tricks and Illusions
Commander: Mind control
Lord: Defense, thugs that do the fighting for you
Con Man: tricking others via non-magical means
Spy: sneaking and scouting
Assassin: backstabbing, sneaking. Poisons
Weaponmanster: hacking and slashing
Element: unarmed combat. Modifies body with magics and surroundings
Rotted: unarmed combat and offensive magics. Modifies body randomly
Wraith: possession of corpses. Stats change depending on body taken


Advantages to this system: much more versatility. For example: the five lower classes have many spells and abilities that the higher ones do not. It might not make sense for your party to have two Commander is it: after all, how many mind controllers do you really need? Well, if one of them was a merchant before they became a commander, they have a lot of merchant skills that can keep your party funded and supplied while the other commander may have been an acolyte, and can act as a healer to the party as well.


Some details on less clear classes:

Elements fight unarmed, but gain their powers by absorbing weapons into their bodies. An element who absorbs a stone club, for instance, will essentially transform himself into stone, and will gain acid resistance, as well as lots of extra defenses.
An element can absorb more than one material, but conflicting materials can have dire consequences: absorbing an ice shield gives you the innate powers of the shield (the power to freeze whoever strikes you) and absorbing a Fire sword does the same. But absorbing both? That could kill you. In order to switch from one material to another, you must first expel the material that you currently possess. This will return the original weapon to its original state, with some negative modifiers depending on how long you had it absorbed.

Rotted use powers that are a lot like psionics: they can bend reality around them. However, this has a devastating impact on their bodies. Every time a Rotted gains a level, they roll a pair of dice: one to determine body part, and another to determine effect. Example: a Rotted gains his first level as a Rotted. He rolls a 5 (torso) and a 7(acidic wounds). At this point, a gaping wound will open across his torso that cannot be healed. No armor can be worn over this place unless it is acid resistant. Any monster who strikes him here unarmed or with a non-acid resistant weapon will gain damage or lose the weapon. Another example: The rotted gains another level and rolls a 3(right arm) and a 13(beast: spider) at this point, his right arm will rot off, and spider legs will grow to replace them. The legs will be fully functional, and can be used to attack. I will provide a full table of effects, but DMs or players can feel free to modify it, or even create their own. People who have seen the horror movie ‘The Thing’ and remembers the scene on the hospital table can imagine how this would appear when it works.


Wraiths lose their corporal form, and exist as spirits, surviving only by inhabiting corpses. They can leave a corpse at will to inhabit another, but if the body dies while they are in it, so does the player. If a player is stunned, charmed or fails the will check for any reason, they are unable to vacate the body in that round. When they inhabit a body, their toughness, endurance, appearance and speed scores are changed to the original inhabitant’s. the will, mana, charisma, balance, knowledge, and wisdom scores remain the same. Only whole corpses can be used: if the body was cloven in half, it’s out of the question. If it was killed by magical, or mental means, it’s ok. A body that died too long ago cannot be used, and the player must vacate a body at the end of the day in order to rest. Basically: They cannot inhabit a body and use it forever, they must find (or make) fresh corpses daily. They are allowed to use magics while in spirit form, and take extra damage from magical attacks in that form, though they are immune to physical attacks. They cannot ever be completely encased in solid in this form (walking through walls is OK. Walking through walls that are thicker than you are is not.)


Illusionists create illusions. The illusions cannot deal damage, though they cannot be detected as illusions except by physical contact or by magical means. Illusionists can disguise themselves or others to the point of being invisible (at higher levels)


Commanders, simply, give commands. If it’s something that the target would be doing anyway, it has low difficulty, and vice versa (almost like a bluff check). At the highest level, a commander can tell someone to die, and they will.


Commanders, Lords, and Con Artists (the three branches from merchant) all operate by getting others to do their bidding. Commanders do it magically, Lords do it financially (basically: lords get extra money, and most of their skills base around paying thugs to protect you), and Con Artists do it with charm. A low level commander and a low level con artist together can do things that neither would do apart, and that an equal level pair of weaponmasters would not. As an example: two high level enemies. A commander could tell them to kill each other, but would probably fail the will check, and they would simply kill him. A con artist would have much the same results if he tried to sow discord between them. If a Con Artist used his abilities to accentuate difficulties between the two, the difficulty rating on the Commanders “kill each other” command would go way down, because once the con artist starts getting them to dislike each other, attacking the other is not as far out of the question as it would normally have been.

Spies, assassins, and weaponmasters are not very new ideas, and don’t need to be explained.


I do not yet have races, but I will say one thing: there are not going to be any humans. There will be no elves, no dwarves, no hobbits, no orcs, and no gnomes. If you’ve heard of it somewhere else, it will not be here.

[nevered]

this got pushed back to page 4 by the moved threads.

I'm just bumping it up

[Lord Iames Osari]

I'd say that this is a new system. Standard d20 uses the six ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha).

[nevered]

so what do you think of the rest of it?

I realize that some of the non-magical classes aren't very original, and I intend on revamping some of them, but do the other classes (rotted, element, and wraiths in particular) sound like something you'd be interested in playing?

[jdrich]

It sounds very Final Fantasy-ish, probably wouldn't be for me.

[amanodel]

Nice, with some good original ideas. One point is missing: how the system works.

Dice rolling I suppose. d20? D100? Or try to use d12, d10 or even d8 or d6 to minimalize randomness?
D&d-ish dice roll + modifiers to beat target DC? Or Shadowrun-type?

Base attack bonuses and save progressions like in d&d?

Combat and magic work like in d&d or you have alternative ideas?

Sorry for the lot of questions, but you have written down the starting (abilities) and the final step (classes), but haven't written the mechanism that works between the two. You made me curious by not letting me know the core system. ;D

[BelkarsDagger]

I think its mostly a teaser, or thats all he has so far.

Either way:

I LOVE IT MAN!

The Rotted sound... interesting. As do wraiths. It's okay that some ideas arent entirely original, I mean you had to be inspired by something, right?

[nevered]

I think its mostly a teaser, or thats all he has so far.

Either way:

I LOVE IT MAN!

The Rotted sound... interesting. As do wraiths. It's okay that some ideas arent entirely original, I mean you had to be inspired by something, right?


actually, it's more like: I thought up some ideas that I really like (rotted, wraiths, and element), and I put filler classes in the others until I come up with something more original/interesting.


OK, combat:

I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and here's the outline:

two defense values: Dodge and Resistance.
two attack values: Aim and Power

each attack will have four rolls attached to it: Crit (d10), Aim (dX), Power (dY), and Damage (dZ)

X, Y, and Z are all properties of the weapon, skills, environment, ect.

each attack reaction will have two rolls attached to it: Dodge (dX) and Resistance (dY)
they are, of course dice rolls that will be either dependant on, or modified by your speed and toughness stats.

there are basically three rounds to each attack:
attacker's Aim vs. defender's dodge.
attacker's crit. (the crit difficulty is based on how resistant the type of armor is to the type of attack. If i shot a fireball at your wooden shield, the difficulty would be very low. If i hit your steel armor with a wooden stick, the difficulty for crit is very high)
attacker's power vs. defender's reistance (if the crit is successful, skip this step. it doesn't matter how good your steel armor is if i strike you with lightning)


if the attack is successful (defender does not dodge the strike, and the strike gets through the armor), roll for damage.


now, this obviously needs refining, but the framework for what I have is there.

each weapon would look something like this:
Name (Material, Aim, Power, Damage)
or:
Sword (Crystal, d10, d12, 2d6)

and armor like this:
Name (Material, Dodge, Resistance)
or:
Plate Mail (Steel, -d8, 2d8)


projectile weapons would be different: the 'Material' would be from the projectile, the Power from the launcher, and the damage and aim from an average of both.

oh, yes: and spells.
the spell stats are going to look a lot like regular weapons (or paper, anyway)
they will have an aim, a power, and a 'material' (sort of: 'lightning' isn't a material so much)

mental spells (such as those of the commanders) will be directly will vs. will.

[amanodel]

Now that's better :)

So the armor grants only "AC" and no "Damage Reduction". Something says me that with the resistance could lower the damage instead of negating it.

Other than that, I'd only suggest one thing. It's about th command spells. Command spell users are now in advantage, they only have to beat the defender in one roll. And the effect is maximized on success automatically. I'd suggest the following:

Commanding spell:
Name (Material, Aim, Power, Damage)
or:
Dominate (Will, d10, d12, 2d6)

Resistance:
Name (Material, Dodge, Resistance)
or:
Save (Will, -d8, 2d8)

Once I tried to create a system with mental dodge and resistance. It could be combined with this system. Like that the Commander's dominate spell damages the mana (or whatever) stat of the target. If it is lowered to a certain point (let's say 0 for example, or 2 or 5 for a lighter spell) the caster can make the command.

Six rolls for each attack sounds a lot, but if it's better than the standard d20 than it may worth it. Does this system has initiative, attacks/turn progressing, or attack speed based on weapons?

[nevered]

I suppose that the flat-out reduction for resistance would make a little more sense.

i was also thinking of making armor resistance a static number.

originally, i was thinking that when you rolled the dice to determine the resistance, it would simulate direct blows vs. glancing blows.

but now that I think about it, that's what the attacker's Power roll is for. high Power roll is for a direct hit, while a low power roll is for a weak hit that just bounces right off. i suppose that's true for damage as well. if you roll high on both Power and Damage, you struck a powerful blow, and if you do poorly on both, you didn't do anything.

making Power static instead of variable reduces the dice per turn to 5: 4 for the attacker (or less, if they fail on aim or power) and one for the defender (if they can dodge it)


I see what' you're saying about the commander's spells.

however, I don't really consider 'Will' a material.
I plan on having ten physical materials that all weapons and armor will be made out of:
Fire, Ice, Steel, Cloth, Carapace, Crystal, Energy, Wood, Stone, and Skin.

each will be strong against specific materials, and others will be weak against specific materials (which pretty much comes into play for criticals. attacking something that's weak against your attack type means that you have a good chance of crit., and it means that you can bypass the damage reduction stage altogether, and deal the damage directly)

The mental spells (mostly for Acolytes and its child classes) will have to use some other mechanism.


As far as initiative: I'm trying to come up with something that is cumulative: where players with greater speed will be able to take more turns than the slow players.

basically: a character with a speed of 2 will take less turns than a character with a speed of three, as determined by the ratio. do you see what i'm saying?

[amanodel]

I plan on having ten physical materials that all weapons and armor will be made out of:
Fire, Ice, Steel, Cloth, Carapace, Crystal, Energy, Wood, Stone, and Skin.

But you can always make a new subtype for mental spells. Or even two or three of them. Or take Energy subtype for them. Maybe an Energy or Crystal material shield provides protection against mental spells. Creating +1 subype for mental spells. They could hurt mana or something like that instead of HP. And when the mental defense of a person is off then they can be bullied around. Te stadard "will vs will" is not bad, but with so many dice rolls for a simple combat and only one dice for mental combat greatly favors the acolytes.

However it only makes sense for the bard-type acolytes, the merchant is doing it like some skill check still or something, as I see it.

I see what are you up to with the combat mechanism. It sounds neat. I'd advice that only one of Power and Damage should be dynamic. Either make it d&d-ish static power, or you could do static weapon damage. Like a bastard sword hits for 10 points, only modified by the Power of the attack.
Oh, how the results would be cumulative? Like Power d12 + Damage 2d4, or multiplied in some way?

About the initaiative. It sounds good, but can be hardly arranged if the two speed stats are like 13 and 9.

Btw I'm thinking on a system where I won't use the standard "my turn, your turn" engine. Hard to do it properly, it progresses slowly :)

[nevered]

not the results for damage would be cumulative, the results for inititave would be cumulative.

normally, every character gets one turn per round, no matter what their speed is: they simply roll for inititiave each round.

That has never made sense to me, because a character that's twice as fast as another character should be able to strike twice as much as his opponent, right?

right now, the simplest algorytm i've worked out will make it so that a low speed value is fast while a high speed value is slow. I need to fix it, but here's the gyst of what i'm saying:

Joe (speed:5) and Bob (speed:8)

Joe takes first strike, because he has the lowest number:
J5:B8
after Joe's move is over, Add Joe's Speed to his current inititave:
J10:B8
Now bob goes, because his value is lower. After bob goes, add bob's speed to his current inititave:
J10:B16
Now, Joe goes, because he has the lowest(fastest) score. After he goes, add his speed to his current inititave:
J15:B16
Now look at this round: Even though Joe just went, his slightly increased speed has brought him an advantage: he still has the inititave. Joe takes another turn, and the numbers add again.
J20:B16
And now it's bob's turn again.


Do you see what i'm trying to do? now, i can't figure out a way to reverse it, so that a high score is better than a low one (start them both from 100 and subtract each round?) that would reward the one with the highest score, but higher level characters (with speeds in the 20's) would soon run out of numbers.

that's also just an example, as i doubt that any character would have speeds as low as 5 and 8

[nevered]

character creation: the basics:

here is a sample race and a sample class, and how to make a character of that combination.

Kellen

Tall (7-8ft.), thin (almost skeletal) creatures.
Silver-blue skin, hairless, eyes that are solid blue.
live in the wilderness in the high mountains, in nomadic groups of 15-20

+2 against cold attacks (ie: when the crit. for a cold/ice attack is against them, the diffulcty for crit. is increased by 2)
+2 against fire attacks (ditto, but for fire)

base armor material: skin (when they are not wearing any armor, and have not absorbed anything as an element, their armor material is counted as skin)

increased vision in low light and extremely bright areas.

(spirit): d6
will: 5
mana: 6
-
(strength): d2
toughness: 2
endurance: 2
-
(Personability): d4
appearance: 3
charisma: 4
-
(dexterity): d6
speed: 6
balance: 4
-
(intelligence): d6
knowledge: 6
wisdom: 6




Mystic

magic users who use their magics to change some property of themselves.

(spirit) (d6)
will: 5
mana: 6
-
(strength): d4
toughness: 4
endurance: 3
-
(Personability): d2
appearance: 1
charisma: 2
-
(dexterity): d4
speed: 4
balance: 3
-
(intelligence): d6
knowledge: 5
wisdom: 6


now, if I were to create a character that were a Kellan Mystic, here’s how I would go about assigning the stats:

(spirit) (d6+d6)=(3+5)=8
will: (4+5)=9
mana: (5+6)=11
-
(strength): (d4+d2)=(2+1)=3
toughness: (4+2)=6
endurance: (3+2)=5
-
(Personability): d2=(2)=2
appearance: (1+3)=4
charisma: (2+4)=6
-
(dexterity): (d4+d6)=(1+3)=4
speed: (4+6)=10
balance: (3+4)=7
-
(intelligence): (d6+d6)=(5+4)=9
knowledge: (4+6)=10
wisdom: (6+6)=12

the next step would be to take the five dice rolls and divide their values among the other stats.

(spirit) (d6+d6)=(3+5)=8
will: (4+5)=9
mana: (5+6)=11

i can take the roll 8 and split it evenly:

will: (4+5)=9+4=13
mana: (5+6)=11+4=15

or i can try to even out the stats:

will: (4+5)=9+5=14
mana: (5+6)=11+3=14

or i can dump them all into one:

will: (4+5)=9+0=9
mana: (5+6)=11+8=19

[amanodel]

Either you could just leave it this way, or just create a maximum, which is the highest speed value ever.

Things can be amiss here. New combatants? Spell casting?

Each spell has a casting speed, and you add that to the initiative+speed?
New combatants start their counting from when they enter?

But otherwise its great.

I have to say, character creation is one of the bests I've ever seen. The only thing seems weird that there can be characters with low toughness but high constitution.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I can't help but think that this system looks rather complex, and I'm not sure if there's any particular benefit to it. I haven't got the first clue how character creation is supposed to work, or why it might be set up the way it is.

[nevered]

I can't help but think that this system looks rather complex, and I'm not sure if there's any particular benefit to it. I haven't got the first clue how character creation is supposed to work, or why it might be set up the way it is.


well, it's pretty simple: for the character creation, I tried to find a balance between common sense and customizability.

in other systems, you just roll a 20 sided die, and whatever the number is, you plug it into your stats.

If I were a half-orc barbarian, for example, and I rolled a 2 for strength, It just makes no sense: how could I possibly become a barbarian with almost no strength?

In this case, there are set minimums. it is simply impossible for a mystic, for example, to have less than a certain amount of wisdom, because that's part of being a mystic.

now, rolling for the other 5 stats and dividing that number between the other 10 is how it's customizable. You might want to play a character with more mana than will, and the character creation allows that. It does not, however, allow you to have characters with stats that do not correlate to their classes or races.

I understand that combat is a bit on the complicated side, but that's what i'm trying to work out here.




I have to say, character creation is one of the bests I've ever seen. The only thing seems weird that there can be characters with low toughness but high constitution.

there is no 'constitution', just endurance.

the way it's turning out, speed and toughness are the only ones that really have a place in hand-to-hand combat. will and mana will have a lot to do in magical combat.

the others (endurance, charisma, appearance, balance, knowledge, and wisdom) will have to do with other things in the game: lifting rocks, gathering information, climbing, learning spells, ect.

as for combatants entering combat halfway through: i'm not sure.

I'll have to think a little more on that one.

[Dan_Hemmens]

well, it's pretty simple: for the character creation, I tried to find a balance between common sense and customizability.

But that's the thing. I don't see how your system fits either of these.


in other systems, you just roll a 20 sided die, and whatever the number is, you plug it into your stats.

I've never seen a system that works like that.

Are you familiar with the concept of points-buy systems?


If I were a half-orc barbarian, for example, and I rolled a 2 for strength, It just makes no sense: how could I possibly become a barbarian with almost no strength?

You do know that character generation does not have to be random, don't you?


In this case, there are set minimums. it is simply impossible for a mystic, for example, to have less than a certain amount of wisdom, because that's part of being a mystic.

now, rolling for the other 5 stats and dividing that number between the other 10 is how it's customizable. You might want to play a character with more mana than will, and the character creation allows that. It does not, however, allow you to have characters with stats that do not correlate to their classes or races.

But why all the random?

[nevered]

there really isn't as much random as you make it out to be. there are as many dice as there are stats.

I'm sure there are some systems that allow you to allot points between the stats, and there are some systems that do it all by dice rolls.

this one, however, has preset stats for character types that you are allowed to modify within certain parameters, depending on dice rolls.

If you have some suggestions on what I should do instead, then please say so.

[Dan_Hemmens]

If you have some suggestions on what I should do instead, then please say so.

Pure points buy. Players are smart, they won't play a Barbarian with a Strength of 2 or a Mystic with a Wisdom of 3. Just let them put what they like, where they like. You gain nothing by using this "1D8 + 1D2 divided between each of these two stats" thing.

[amanodel]

Point buy is good and correct, but no fun at all. You haven't played 3d6 down-the-line style d&d?

There are many systems (especially computer games) when the attributes are derived from both race and class. Adding some randomness is good.

And creating a minimum is used in many system. I can't recall exactly, but ad&d or d&d 2 had class-specific minimum scores. (No ranger under 13 con, or something like that.)

The only thing could be amiss is to let players having a chance to min-max with these paired stats.

[nevered]

A big problem with the non-random system is that it's too mundane, and too predictable. The challenge is to use a character even when you haven't gotten all the points you were depending on. A lot of the spells (possibly all the spells) are going to require stat. minimums in order to learn (ie: you aren't allowed to learn how to throw a fireball unless your mana is above 20 and wisdom is above 18, or something like that)

If i knew this ahead of time, I would simply craft the character so that i had enough points in all the right places.

However, a semi-random system means that I will usually start off with a character that will have difficulty doing these things. (I might end up with a character one or two points short of being able to learn how to cast a spell or learn a weapon trick that I wanted, and the challenge will be in finding out how to overcome these weaknesses: finding alternate methods of doing this, or in finding ways to boost my stats)

unlike an entirely random system, however, It still stays withiin the limits of plausability. having a mystic with 12 mana is playable, but difficult. playing a mystic with 3 mana is ridiculous and implausable: a person with those stats would have never become a mystic in the first place.



Point buy is good and correct, but no fun at all. You haven't played 3d6 down-the-line style d&d?

There are many systems (especially computer games) when the attributes are derived from both race and class. Adding some randomness is good.

And creating a minimum is used in many system. I can't recall exactly, but ad&d or d&d 2 had class-specific minimum scores. (No ranger under 13 con, or something like that.)

The only thing could be amiss is to let players having a chance to min-max with these paired stats.


I think that if a player really wants to min-max:

1) there's not really much we can do to stop them.
2) if they want to play the game that way, let them. The game is all about having fun. if min-maxing is fun to them, i don't see why we should get in their way.

[MagFlare]

Could you post the list of Rotted effects? It's a fantastic idea, and I'd like to have the complete picture.

[nevered]

Could you post the list of Rotted effects? It's a fantastic idea, and I'd like to have the complete picture.

i don't have all the tables drawn up yet, most of it's still in the early stages.

Essentially, one table will be:

1)head
2)L arm
3)R arm
4)torso
5)L leg
6)R leg
7)Roll 2 dice (ie: instead of only getting one part, you get 2)
8)Roll no dice (ie: you're lucky enough to not take any effects this round.

there will be four other tables: one for each: the legs, torso, arms, and head.

effects on this table will range from sprouting animal-based parts (anything from spiders to bears), losing the part (only arms or legs) completely, unhealable wounds that bleed acid, growing insect armor, the possibilities are endless.

I will provide a table, but It is really my hope that the DM's and the players will use their own imaginations and add whatever they can come up with.

[Dan_Hemmens]

A big problem with the non-random system is that it's too mundane, and too predictable. The challenge is to use a character even when you haven't gotten all the points you were depending on. A lot of the spells (possibly all the spells) are going to require stat. minimums in order to learn (ie: you aren't allowed to learn how to throw a fireball unless your mana is above 20 and wisdom is above 18, or something like that)


Okay, so if the challenge comes from not having enough points, why not use a *low* points-buy?


If i knew this ahead of time, I would simply craft the character so that i had enough points in all the right places.

But (a) you can still probably do that with the right Race/Class combination and (b) you can probably still do that even *with* the randomisation.


However, a semi-random system means that I will usually start off with a character that will have difficulty doing these things. (I might end up with a character one or two points short of being able to learn how to cast a spell or learn a weapon trick that I wanted, and the challenge will be in finding out how to overcome these weaknesses: finding alternate methods of doing this, or in finding ways to boost my stats)

And again I ask why not just use a *low* points-buy system.

You also seem to be making the common but (to my mind) peculiar mistake of thinking that luck and skill are in some way related.

If it is desirable for players to have to deal with low stats, then you should give *all* players low stats. If it is *not* desirable, you shouldn't give any players low stats.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that "finding a way to boost your stats" counts as a "challenge". It's an annoyance. It's like starting a game of Monopoly with a randomly allocated amount of money.


unlike an entirely random system, however, It still stays withiin the limits of plausability. having a mystic with 12 mana is playable, but difficult. playing a mystic with 3 mana is ridiculous and implausable: a person with those stats would have never become a mystic in the first place.

But that's the thing. Why is it advantageous for some people to get "playable but difficult" characters while some don't?

[nevered]

you seem to be thinking that everyone wants to play every game the exact same way.

I am not equating luck with skill, but I am saying that bad luck at the beginning makes a challenge for a skillful player to try to overcome.

If i were to hand out points the same way every game: every single Agosi Thief begins the game with the same stats as every single other Agosi Thief, there would be no variety in the games. The limits placed on the characters would be the same, and players would be locked into skill development that stems from their stats (or lack thereof)

Same way with comlete control over stats: If you could arrange the stats completely freely, it would be done the same way every time: so that you can plan on getting the skills that you want by giving yourself the stats that you want.

By placing lower limits on stats, and making the rest random, it ensures that not only are the characters all playable (though unlucky rolls make for a more difficult go at it), but the characters are all unique. If i get lucky and have a lot of points to split between speed and balance, the character will be better suited to this task, though it will undoubtedly have trouble in other aspects.


There are pretty much three ways to handle character creation:

1) completely random. roll 10 d20, and put one number in each slot.
2) all allocated. give the player 100 points to divide as they wish.
3) all static. each character type will have fixed stats depending on the race and class.

1 will inevitably lead to characters that are ill-suited to their tasks. if i fail miserably at a roll, i'm pretty much screwed if that stat is important to the character. overcoming a couple of points is one thing, but playing a fighter with 1 strength is something completely different.

2 will lead to an abuse of out of character knowledge. If i need 16 wisdom for some spells in the future, I will put 16, and exactly 16 in that slot and save the rest for the other stats. it leads to a level of precision that is (and i realize the irony in this) unrealistic. nobody is ever exactly suited to their tasks. if your character needs 16 wisdom but ends up with 18, it's good for you, even if those points would be better spent elsewhere. if your character only has 14 wisdom, then you're either going to have to find a way to make up for it, or change which spells you were counting on using.

3 will grow tiring. If the prerequisite for a fireball is 17 mana and a Kellan Acolyte has 17 mana, I guarantee that every acolyte will get it. if it costs 20 mana and all the kellan acolytes start with 17, what's the point in having that spell anyway? If there is a way to get the needed points, then everyone would just go out and do it, and there'd be no reason not to just start them out with it. If there is no way to get the points, then nobody will ever get it, and there's no point in having the spell.



You're giving me reasons to use other systems, but you haven't given me a reason not to use this one.

[Dan_Hemmens]

you seem to be thinking that everyone wants to play every game the exact same way.


No. I'm saying that the way you claim that you want to play *your* game is not supported by the system.


I am not equating luck with skill, but I am saying that bad luck at the beginning makes a challenge for a skillful player to try to overcome.

Precisely. You are saying that low stats present a challenge to a skillful player. If this challenge is desirable, then your stated design goals (presenting challenges to skillful players) would be better suited by giving people low stats across the board.


If i were to hand out points the same way every game: every single Agosi Thief begins the game with the same stats as every single other Agosi Thief, there would be no variety in the games. The limits placed on the characters would be the same, and players would be locked into skill development that stems from their stats (or lack thereof)

Ah yes, that's why every character in a game which doesn't use random character generation is identical. Oh wait.


Same way with comlete control over stats: If you could arrange the stats completely freely, it would be done the same way every time: so that you can plan on getting the skills that you want by giving yourself the stats that you want.

That depends very much on the number of points you get, and on how much your system rewards specialisation.


By placing lower limits on stats, and making the rest random, it ensures that not only are the characters all playable (though unlucky rolls make for a more difficult go at it), but the characters are all unique. If i get lucky and have a lot of points to split between speed and balance, the character will be better suited to this task, though it will undoubtedly have trouble in other aspects.

But that's exactly the point. Characters will not be "unique" they will just be unbalanced. "Having different stats" does not make characters "different".


There are pretty much three ways to handle character creation:

1) completely random. roll 10 d20, and put one number in each slot.
2) all allocated. give the player 100 points to divide as they wish.
3) all static. each character type will have fixed stats depending on the race and class.

Or:

1) Random gaussian - roll 2D10 and put one number in each slot.
2) Allocated with restrictions. Give the player 100 points to spend, within certain limits.
3) Template based. A given race/class combination has set stats, these change over time.


1 will inevitably lead to characters that are ill-suited to their tasks. if i fail miserably at a roll, i'm pretty much screwed if that stat is important to the character. overcoming a couple of points is one thing, but playing a fighter with 1 strength is something completely different.

Why do you persist in pretending that "randomly rolled stats" means "you have to roll 1D20 for each stat and stick with it"? There are two dozen ways to have a pure-random character generation system which won't give you a "Fighter with a Stregth of 1".

For example, you could roll 10 D20s and then assign them to the stats of your choice.

You could roll 3D6, or 4D6 and drop the lowest. Or immediately set any roll below (say) 10 to 10.


2 will lead to an abuse of out of character knowledge. If i need 16 wisdom for some spells in the future, I will put 16, and exactly 16 in that slot and save the rest for the other stats. it leads to a level of precision that is (and i realize the irony in this) unrealistic. nobody is ever exactly suited to their tasks. if your character needs 16 wisdom but ends up with 18, it's good for you, even if those points would be better spent elsewhere. if your character only has 14 wisdom, then you're either going to have to find a way to make up for it, or change which spells you were counting on using.

Okay, and now you're pretending that a random system is a points-buy system. If your character needs a 16 for Wisdom, and you roll an 18, those aren't "points" that would be better spent elsewhere, they're points you've got for free, because you rolled them.

Also: I fail to see the difference between "I need Wisdom 16, so I will put 16 into Wisdom" and "I need Wisdom 16, but I only got Wisdom 14, so I will try to find something to give me +2 Wisdom". Why is one an "unrealistic level of precison" but the other completely kosher?


3 will grow tiring. If the prerequisite for a fireball is 17 mana and a Kellan Acolyte has 17 mana, I guarantee that every acolyte will get it. if it costs 20 mana and all the kellan acolytes start with 17, what's the point in having that spell anyway? If there is a way to get the needed points, then everyone would just go out and do it, and there'd be no reason not to just start them out with it. If there is no way to get the points, then nobody will ever get it, and there's no point in having the spell.

What happened to the challenge of finding a way to boost your stats?

Also: is your new system Stats Only, or do you have things like skills and feats as well? Do characters change, do they progress, or are they always stuck with exactly the same character sheet they started out with?


You're giving me reasons to use other systems, but you haven't given me a reason not to use this one.

Okay, how about this.

It's needlessly complex to no good end. You are absolutely mistaken about the effects your chosen style of character generation will have on the game experience. You take a single step of character generation and make it into a five step process. You rely on random generation of character stats as a substitute for meaningful differentiation of characters. You limit race/class combinations considerably. You have a system which, in effect, randomises PC effectiveness and nothing else.

In short, it is a system with virtually no merits.

[amanodel]

One question to Dan Hemmens, then:

If you want to play a game (for example d&d) with point buy only, does it make everyone insane and terribly stupid who'd like to roll for the stats?

There are some good and bad ideas in every system, and you can only whine about it not being point-buy based?

Sorry for being blunt, but if you feel like this you should go to the wizards' forum and complain to them that d&d has roll-generated stats and the point-buy system is only included in the DMG. :o

(about the metagaming in character creation. The same with d&d. fighter needs 13 INT to have the improved trip and it's friends, TWF requires 13 DEX...)

Please please please: comment on the new things, that haven't been tried yet. If he was making point-buy, it's sure as hell that someone would do just the same, demanding to make the stats rolled.

[nevered]

I've been giving some thought to the initiative problem, and here's what i've come up with:

reaction times.

characters will, at all times have a calculated reaction time based on speed, perception (a number 1-10, depending on visibility and audiability), and will. When not in combat, the reaction time is set to 40. When in combat, reaction time is: (40-(speed+(will/2)+perception))

at the start of combat, all characters calculate their reaction time. If one character is unaware that combat has started (ie: they get sneak-attacked), their turn starts at 40. everyone else's start at their react time.

players will take turns depending on whose turn score is the lowest. they can either move, take an action, or cast a spell.
if they move, they move a number of spaces according to their speed, and their reaction score is added to their turn score.
if they take an action (use a skill, or make an attack), the appropriate steps are taken, and the react time is added to the turn.
if they cast a spell, the spell will state how long it takes to cast. if this number is less than the player's react time, then the player's react time is used. If the number is greater, then the spell's cast time is used.

then, the player who has the lowest turn score will take his turn.

does this make sense?

so here goes:
Bob (speed: 12, will 14) low-light visibility, acute hearing
Joe (speed: 13, will 10) regular vision and hearing

Bob is walking down a path, the light level is low, and the noise level is negligible. Bob has perception of 10, Joe has 8.
Joe is lying in ambush of Bob. Bob has react time of 40, and Joe has react time of 14

B:40
J:14
Joe moves to Bob.
B:40
J:28
Joe Strikes Bob (insert attack/defense rolls here)
B:40
J:42
Bob's first turn, and now he recalculates his react time to be 11.
B:40
J:42
Bob casts a spell that takes 6 to cast, so his react time of 11 is used. insert appropriate spell action here.
B:51
J:42
Joe attacks again.
B:51
J:56
Bob casts the spell 'stun'. it takes him 15 to cast, and has the following effect: "Target's turn number is increased by 25. In combat, effected target's Dodge rolls are set to 0"
B:66
J:81
Bob casts another spell on Joe
B:77
J:81
Bob casts another spell on Joe, and Joe dies.

End combat.


does this make sense to everyone?


I'm thinking that for a character who is entering combat, their turn will simply be set to the turn score of whoever has the lowest turn score. as an alternative, their turn score could be set to the average of all characters in combat.

the problem with making it the average, or the highest is that if spells (such as a sleep spell or a stun spell) were to artificially raise a character's turn, an entering character would effectively just sit at the sidelines until that character woke up or recovered.

[amanodel]

Then use the lowest number + own (40-speed and stuff), that should work.

What about someone wants to step 2 squares and attack then?
You add 2 to the combat time thingie and then check that whose combat number is the lowest then?

[Dan_Hemmens]

One question to Dan Hemmens, then:

If you want to play a game (for example d&d) with point buy only, does it make everyone insane and terribly stupid who'd like to roll for the stats?

There is a difference between "roll for stats" and "generate stats by a pointlessly complicated combination of rolling, points allocation, and allocating a randomly rolled number of points determined by your race and class."


There are some good and bad ideas in every system, and you can only whine about it not being point-buy based?

I'm "whining" about it making a simple step of character generation needlessly complex, when they could just as easily use something which is *not* needlessly complex.


Sorry for being blunt, but if you feel like this you should go to the wizards' forum and complain to them that d&d has roll-generated stats and the point-buy system is only included in the DMG. :o

I would note that D&D random stat generation is "Roll 3D6 6 times" not "roll a die determined by your race, and another die determined by your class, and then add another number determined by your race, and another number determined by your class".

If it was, I probably would complain on the Wizards boards.

Except I wouldn't need to, because nobody would play their games and they'd go bankrupt.


(about the metagaming in character creation. The same with d&d. fighter needs 13 INT to have the improved trip and it's friends, TWF requires 13 DEX...)

Randomisation does not solve this. At all.


Please please please: comment on the new things, that haven't been tried yet. If he was making point-buy, it's sure as hell that someone would do just the same, demanding to make the stats rolled.

I am not complaining that the stats are rolled. I am complaining that the stats are rolled in a needlessly complex manner which has several drawbacks and no benefits.

[amanodel]

So it's too complicated. But that's not constructive criticism. I emphasize the word "constructive". He has a completely new system here. I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it's hard to do. He tries to create something, you know, new. 3d6 and point-buy are not new.

I see nothing wrong with abilities derived from both race and class. One stat would be (4+d6)+(5+2d4) is not so hard mathematics, and it's not a real problem when you have to do it ten times in a row. Heck, you have to do character creation once in every game.

I agree, that can be needlessly complicated, but it's not bad from the bone.


Randomisation does not solve this. At all.

And what do you think, what would solve it? Let me tell you. 3d6 down-the-line. There's no metagaming in that. If there's even one point to allocate, that brings forth metagaming. The more it is random (which means not determined by the player), the less the metagaming is. Uff.



My solution, to make everyone happy woul be the following:

Races have static abilities, modified by class. I show you this with "half-orc", since I don't know Kellan, or other thingies from the campaign setting.

So half-orc has:

will: 6
mana: 4
-
toughness: 6
endurance: 8
-
appearance: 2
charisma: 3
-
speed: 6
balance: 4
-
knowledge: 4
wisdom: 5

Then he selects class. Fighter for example. He rolls five times, and divide the scores between the two sub-abilities.

(spirit): 2d4
-
(strength): 3d6
-
(Personability): d6
-
(dexterity): 2d8
-
(intelligence): d8

The numbers are just bluffs, I don't know what sould be a proper strenght of a half-orc fighter.

In some cases, this can determinate the class change, but if players gain attribution points at level-ups it's not that bad.

This way it's customized. Players have a limited chance of metagaming.
It's like a mixture of 3d6 and 3d6 DTL, and pointbuy. You select your race and class, do the mathematics and then the look-outs and personality.
In 3d6 and pointbuy you've got an entire character in your mind before rolling a single die.
In 3d6 DTL you do the die rolling, and then you select class, race, and personality.

[Dan_Hemmens]

So it's too complicated. But that's not constructive criticism. I emphasize the word "constructive".

No "it's too complicated" isn't constructive criticism. "It's too complicated, it could be simplified with no loss of functionality by switching to either a straight points-buy or a more straightforward random system" is in fact constructive criticism.


He has a completely new system here. I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it's hard to do.

I have, in fact. I have written a variety of new systems for a variety of different sorts of game. I've written systems for freeforms, for tabletops, for rubber-swords LARPs and (presently) for a shared-world fantasy system.


He tries to create something, you know, new. 3d6 and point-buy are not new.

Because obviously to create an original system, you need a completely unique way of generating stats. Obviously.

What he's got here *isn't* a new game. It's what some would call a Fantasy Heartbreaker: it's basically a set of D&D houserules, designed to counteract percieved problems with the game as written. It's not a new game, it's not a new system.


I see nothing wrong with abilities derived from both race and class. One stat would be (4+d6)+(5+2d4) is not so hard mathematics, and it's not a real problem when you have to do it ten times in a row. Heck, you have to do character creation once in every game.

And it takes up time in every game.

The problem isn't the mathematics. The problem is the cross referencing.

In D&D, a race will give you a bonus to a couple of stats. Easy to remember, easy to look up, easy to think about. In this your stats, and the dice you add to randomise your stats, are completely different for every stat depending on your race and class.


I agree, that can be needlessly complicated, but it's not bad from the bone.

It's not an intrinsically bad idea. It's badly implemented in this case.


And what do you think, what would solve it? Let me tell you. 3d6 down-the-line. There's no metagaming in that. If there's even one point to allocate, that brings forth metagaming. The more it is random (which means not determined by the player), the less the metagaming is. Uff.

You still get metagaming. Instead of "I'll take Dex 13 so I can take Improved Trip" you get "I didn't get Dex 13 so I can't take Improved Trip, so I won't play a battlefiled control character."

Still metagaming. Just in a different place.

[amanodel]

You still get metagaming. Instead of "I'll take Dex 13 so I can take Improved Trip" you get "I didn't get Dex 13 so I can't take Improved Trip, so I won't play a battlefiled control character."

Still metagaming. Just in a different place.

But it's still less metagaming then "I'll give 13 points to int, 13 to str, 18 to dex which I'm going to take 19 so i can take greater TWf later... and 4 cha."


What he's got here *isn't* a new game. It's what some would call a Fantasy Heartbreaker: it's basically a set of D&D houserules, designed to counteract percieved problems with the game as written. It's not a new game, it's not a new system.

I don't see the hidden d&d in this one so obviously as you do. Maybe he started off from d&d but it's not d&d anymore, in my opinion.


No "it's too complicated" isn't constructive criticism. "It's too complicated, it could be simplified with no loss of functionality by switching to either a straight points-buy or a more straightforward random system" is in fact constructive criticism.

I'd agree with that, but I just saw that you tried to convince each other about point-buy or randomness. After the fourth post it became pretty boring. If he wants to do stat-generating depending both race and class, let him be. It just needs some methods of simplifying it. (mainly for a GM who wants to create NPCs.) That's why I suggested that he should roll eiter for class or race, and the other should be static. Still around what he wants, but less complex.

In my opinion ten abilities are way too many, but he seems to have surpassed the point to change that, so I won't bother.

[nevered]

Can we please move on to something else?

I'm not going to radically change the character creation system I have in place unless I get a reason that's better than "It's too complicated"


This system is going to be complicated. there are five dice rolls every time you want to hit something, and even the materials your weapons are made out of matter.


I'd like to move on to the initiative system i've designed. are there any comments on that?

[nevered]

I don't see the hidden d&d in this one so obviously as you do. Maybe he started off from d&d but it's not d&d anymore, in my opinion.

Considering that D&D is the only tabletop RPG i've played, and I didn't like it very much (The concept was fine, but the execution was too rudimentary for my tastes: an 'Armor class' that covers everything from dodge to armor to size modifier?)

actually, if anyone here has played the computer game Ancient Domains of Mystery ( http://www.adom.de/ ), I draw a lot of inspiration from that (the 'appearance' stat, for one)

[nevered]

Ok, triple post, but This is my last:

Basically: I don't like the idea that when you gain a level, you suddenly become able to do new things that you couldn't do 20 seconds ago.

so instead, I'm going to use a system of abilities that works something like this:

ability = mundane things like 'tripping people', 'escaping bonds', ect. (like feats in D&D) they do not include spellcasting and the like

every character automatically starts with every ability.

each ability starts untrained at lvl 0, and is very difficult to use when needed (the dice roll would depend on the stats associated with the ability)

every time you successfully use an ability, you gain more experience in using that ability. once you have successfully used that ability enough times (perhaps: gotten 20 pts. of xp. in the ability), a check is performed that compares the ability to one of your stats. if the stat is high enough, the ability is raised to lvl 1, where the difficulty in using it goes down, and the effects go up.

in other words, if you successfully use the 'trip' ability against 20 enemies, and have a 'balance' higher than 18 and a 'speed' higher than 15, the 'trip' ability becomes more powerful (it incapacitates enemies longer) and easier to use (lower dice rolls are needed for a successful trip)

on the same note: it doesn't matter how many times you get lucky and trip someone, if you don't have the balance and speed for it, you aren't going to get any better.


now, some classes are going to depend on spells, and others are going to require abilities in order to be effective. one option is to start certain classes off at a higher level in certain abilities, and another option is to simply make certain classes gain experience faster in those abilities.

[amanodel]

Can you get all of these to a standard-sized character sheet?

With the ability chaecks and stat generation, something in this class reminds me of Elder scrolls 3 Morrowind.


on the same note: it doesn't matter how many times you get lucky and trip someone, if you don't have the balance and speed for it, you aren't going to get any better.

Why's that?


Basically: I don't like the idea that when you gain a level, you suddenly become able to do new things that you couldn't do 20 seconds ago.

If roleplayed correctly, that's nothing wrong. If you do it taht way you even get rid of spell levels?

[nevered]

I'm designing a character sheet right now.

To make things easier, all characters will have identical first pages, but the second page of the character sheet will depend on the class (ie: I won't waste room on spells for characters that don't have any spells)

as far as not being able to get better if your stats are not good enough:

it's mostly for balance: if any character was allowed to improve any ability to its fullest, the spellcasters would be much more powerful than the regular classes, who use abilities to be effective, while the rest use spells to be effective.

I have a big problem with feats. Just because you don't have the 'trip' feat doesn't mean you're not allowed to try. of course, if you haven't learned it, the chances are slim that it will succeed. I think that allowing anyone to try anything, even if there's absolutely no chance of it happening, adds a touch of realism. you are never left with absolutely no options: there's always something you haven't tried yet.
getting practice at different abilities and getting better at them through time is a lot more realistic to me than going around with absolutely no clue how to do something, then suddenly learning it in a matter of seconds when you level up.


What if successfully applying abilities had a slight (very slight) chance of increasing one of the stats associated with it?

example: a successful application of 'trip' has a 2% chance of raising balance+1 (as the stat increases, the chance of it going up decreases. someone with balance of 5 might have 5% chance, but when you get to around 20, there's almost no chance.)

that way, even if you don't have the stats for a higher level 'trip' now, practicing will eventually get you there.


alternatively, what if there were limits on leveling up abilities? if, for example, there are 30 abilities. a spellcaster might be limited to only leveling up 10 of them. this might be one level in 10 different abilities, or 10 levels in one ability. different classes could have different limits.


a final option would be to make abilities class specific. the classes that depend on abilities more than spells would simply have a wider range of abilities to choose from.


I think a mix of the first and third options could work the best.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Can we please move on to something else?

I'm not going to radically change the character creation system I have in place unless I get a reason that's better than "It's too complicated"

What do you mean by "better"?

Do you mean more specific, like "it includes complications for the sake of complications which have no practical benefit" or do you mean more compelling, like "the complications which you are adding will severely damage the playability of the game."


This system is going to be complicated. there are five dice rolls every time you want to hit something, and even the materials your weapons are made out of matter.

And this is sort of my point. You can't just say "this system is going to be complicated, suck it up. What I'm asking you is why you are making the system this complicated, because I am absolutely damned certain that whatever your design goals are, they could be easily achieved by other means which *won't* put people off your game.


I'd like to move on to the initiative system i've designed. are there any comments on that?

Not yet, because I don't think it's useful to discuss specific subsystems until we're clear about your design goals.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Ok, triple post, but This is my last:

Basically: I don't like the idea that when you gain a level, you suddenly become able to do new things that you couldn't do 20 seconds ago.

Okay. You do realise that not all RPGs have to use levels, don't you?


so instead, I'm going to use a system of abilities that works something like this:

ability = mundane things like 'tripping people', 'escaping bonds', ect. (like feats in D&D) they do not include spellcasting and the like

every character automatically starts with every ability.

each ability starts untrained at lvl 0, and is very difficult to use when needed (the dice roll would depend on the stats associated with the ability)

So you're going to have a specific skill for everything a person can do?


every time you successfully use an ability, you gain more experience in using that ability. once you have successfully used that ability enough times (perhaps: gotten 20 pts. of xp. in the ability), a check is performed that compares the ability to one of your stats. if the stat is high enough, the ability is raised to lvl 1, where the difficulty in using it goes down, and the effects go up.

Okay. Are these "abilities" more or less the same as what D&D would call "skills" or what D&D would call "feats"?


in other words, if you successfully use the 'trip' ability against 20 enemies, and have a 'balance' higher than 18 and a 'speed' higher than 15, the 'trip' ability becomes more powerful (it incapacitates enemies longer) and easier to use (lower dice rolls are needed for a successful trip)

Firstly, on this specific example, you seem to be shooting for realism and making a Trip incapacitate people for longer makes no sense to me. Whether you get tripped by a master tripper, or by some guy who got lucky, you're still just on the floor. It's not like there's some magical force holding you on the ground.

Secondly, why not just use a pure stats/skills system? Have a "trip" skill usable untrained, have it add directly to your dice roll, and have the effects based on your roll not your skill?


on the same note: it doesn't matter how many times you get lucky and trip someone, if you don't have the balance and speed for it, you aren't going to get any better.

Fair enough.


now, some classes are going to depend on spells, and others are going to require abilities in order to be effective. one option is to start certain classes off at a higher level in certain abilities, and another option is to simply make certain classes gain experience faster in those abilities.

Or you could go classless.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Triple posting as well, and this is likewise my last.


Considering that D&D is the only tabletop RPG i've played, and I didn't like it very much (The concept was fine, but the execution was too rudimentary for my tastes: an 'Armor class' that covers everything from dodge to armor to size modifier?)

You see, that's the problem. What you've just said is exactly what I would have guessed from looking at your system. It's a set of rules designed to change D&D to make it more like the way you think you want the game to work.


actually, if anyone here has played the computer game Ancient Domains of Mystery ( http://www.adom.de/ ), I draw a lot of inspiration from that (the 'appearance' stat, for one)

That's the problem though. A lot of the mechanics you use would be *fine* in a computer game, where a machine will do all the number crunching for you, and where five dice rolls can be made and analysed in a fraction of a second. In a tabletop game, it's going to slow everything down to a crawl.