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Raenir Salazar
2009-05-15, 07:15 AM
now i under stand that bring a stats very low makes the enemy easier to kill for that save or make it harder to kill you, but I hear that shivering touch by doing its 2d4 dex damage can "1 shot a dragon" I'm assuming its not that by itself but simply brining the dex to zero is bad.

What happens when each stat is brough to 0 or negative? the PBH I dont think elaborated.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-15, 07:18 AM
I thought they were in it? Str: unable to move, prone. Dex: unable to move, you stay stood up. Mental stats: different comas. Con: death.

banjo1985
2009-05-15, 07:20 AM
Reducing a dragon to 0 Dex and it plummeting to the earth below could quite possibly be terminal for it I guess.

kamikasei
2009-05-15, 07:24 AM
When any of your abilities are at zero (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss), you are variously unable to move, unable to think, unable to translate thoughts into action, or simply unable to live.

CON damage is the only one that can be outright fatal, though going comatose in a hazardous environment (such as when flying at a height) could quickly result in your death. When people talk about shivering touch one-shotting a dragon, they're not saying that casting that spell has the immediate result that the dragon dies, but rather that you render the dragon helpless and can kill it at your leisure without fear of retaliation.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-15, 07:25 AM
That is quite acommon tactic when dealing with dragons, Banjo; combined with some Metamagics, the Dragon is unlikely to be able to take the Dex damage and they have awful Touch AC.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-15, 07:39 AM
You want the descriptions for condition Ability Damaged (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged):
A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-15, 08:36 AM
small note. Shivering Touch is 3d6 dex damage not 2d4 OP.

And the point is that all of those things render the opponent helpless (except CON which kills). Helpless beings are subject to coup de graces.

You'll note that a coup de grace by for example a level 5 Fighter who has Str 18 and power attack and borrows the Wizard's Scythe is looking at an average damage of 64, which means a DC 74 Fort save or die.

Very few creatures can make that save. By which I mean nothing less then Epic.

Raenir Salazar
2009-05-15, 09:26 AM
what determines the dc of insta death there?

kamikasei
2009-05-15, 09:31 AM
what determines the dc of insta death there?

That's what a coup de grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) does.


If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

tyckspoon
2009-05-15, 09:33 AM
10+damage dealt. And if the target manages to throw a 20 and survive that, there's another DC 15 save against death by Massive Damage. And another coup next round if the victim is still alive after that, which has pretty good odds of causing death by HP damage regardless of the Fort saves.

Blackfang108
2009-05-15, 11:15 AM
what determines the dc of insta death there?

The DC for the Instant Death from CON=0 doesn't exist.

There's no saving throw allowed. You are dead.

Stormthorn
2009-05-15, 11:18 AM
Does a Coup De Grace have to be a melee attack? I dont see why you couldnt force a delayed blast fireball down a helpless characters throat and get the same bonuses.

Blackfang108
2009-05-15, 11:19 AM
Does a Coup De Grace have to be a melee attack? I dont see why you couldnt force a delayed blast fireball down a helpless characters throat and get the same bonuses.

It can be ranged, but it must be made from next to the target.

HOWEVER: I don't recall if spells are allowed.

EDIT: also, RS, (assuming we're talking about 3.5) they are in the back of the PHB, in the Yellow pages, In the glossary. Ability scores is part of the heading.

LOLC2k
2009-05-15, 11:34 AM
Spells are neither allowed nor disallowed to make coup de grace attacks. It's very simple, if it can crit (touch or ranged touch) you can coup de grace (provided you are adjacent). If it cannot, fireball for example, you cannot deliver a coup de grace. Obviously, regardless of the spells casting time, you must still take a full round action to coup de grace. This obviously means no coup de grace with quickened spells, or with spells casting time longer than a round.

Stormthorn
2009-05-15, 12:07 PM
I suppose that makes sense from a rules standpoint. Although its completly BS from a simulating reality standpoint. Why would stabbing a guy with a dagger force a save-or-die but not putting your palm on his chest (or your hands on either side of his temples) and casting a quickened lightning bolt.


It's very simple, if it can crit (touch or ranged touch) you can coup de grace (provided you are adjacent). If it cannot, fireball for example, you cannot deliver a coup de grace.

Also, using a fireball on a "narrow opening" requires a ranged touch attack. Throats are narrow openings, and you can crit with a ranged touch attack.

Zeful
2009-05-15, 12:51 PM
I suppose that makes sense from a rules standpoint. Although its completly BS from a simulating reality standpoint. Why would stabbing a guy with a dagger force a save-or-die but not putting your palm on his chest (or your hands on either side of his temples) and casting a quickened lightning bolt.Because Lightning Bolt doesn't work like that?


Also, using a fireball on a "narrow opening" requires a ranged touch attack. Throats are narrow openings, and you can crit with a ranged touch attack.

So something like this (http://antiheroescomic.com/comic/163)?

Raenir Salazar: Just a little of topic note: Your avatar is kinda shrunk. It's supposed to be 80 by 100 pixels, but you have it set to 752 pixels.

skywalker
2009-05-15, 03:19 PM
Because Lightning Bolt doesn't work like that?

Which is, like he said, pretty damned awful from a simulation standpoint.

I always thought having a strength/dexterity of zero would kill you too. Because fully paralyzed people die of suffocation. Their lungs don't work because their diaphragm can't expand and contract. So I should think that while having a CON of zero kills you instantly, having a STR of zero should start causing damage almost immediately, with death coming after an appropriate time if your companions cannot artificially pump your lungs.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-15, 04:23 PM
Which is, like he said, pretty damned awful from a simulation standpoint.

Not really. Lightning bolt does X damage if it hits you in the face. It does Y damage if you throw your hands in the way.

If you are unconscious, it does X damage.

The point is that Lightning Bolt is an area spell, which means every single time it hits you, it courses through most of your body, cause it's lightning.

So every Lightning bolt is just as damaging on a helpless as a failed saving throw.

On the other hand, a Sword into your stomach is never going to be as deadly as someone taking your unconscious body and cutting your throat from ear to ear.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-15, 05:50 PM
I always thought having a strength/dexterity of zero would kill you too. Because fully paralyzed people die of suffocation. That's just not the D&D definition of paralyzed:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. All the involuntary muscles (beating heart, moving diaphragm to fill the lungs, & c.) still work. Paralyzed creatures can automatically swallow, too:
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature’s throat.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-15, 06:50 PM
Which is, like he said, pretty damned awful from a simulation standpoint.


DND + simulation = does not compute.

Stormthorn
2009-05-15, 11:34 PM
On the other hand, a Sword into your stomach is never going to be as deadly as someone taking your unconscious body and cutting your throat from ear to ear.

You do realize that electricity is locational too right? Defib paddles (which can easily kill someone) work a lot better (for either use) if placed so that the charge flows through the heart (as opposed to the foot) which is the same as it being more effective to stab the chest than an extremity.

The same can be said of most things that hurt people. Acid and poison works best if its inside you or at least on a soft mucus membrane. Hypothermia might make you lose fingers but if you could ensure that it effected the heart and brain first it would kill a lot faster.*

I dont see why you couldnt at least get a free Maximize if casting a spell on a helpless opponent whose square you occupy.

*As a random safety tip: If someone is severly hypothermic DO NOT EVER heat their legs with hot water bottles or the like. It will cause chilled blood to flow back to the heart too quickly and can kill them.

EDIT: And the best ability to bring to zero is Wisdom just because of how the coma manifests.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-15, 11:58 PM
You do realize that electricity is locational too right? Defib paddles (which can easily kill someone) work a lot better (for either use) if placed so that the charge flows through the heart (as opposed to the foot) which is the same as it being more effective to stab the chest than an extremity.

Yes, which is why Shocking Grasp can coup de grace. But Lightning Bolt, which is a current of electricity 10ft tall by 10ft wide and pretty much hits the heart every time on a failed save can't.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 11:59 PM
EDIT: And the best ability to bring to zero is Wisdom just because of how the coma manifests.I prefer Cha, primarily because I describe the coma as 'Your soul flees your body in terror at the vile, putrid husk that it has become. The cleric can try to minister you, but the horror of your visage may make him unable to even stomache aproaching. Even the buzzing insects that had surrounded you as your Cha fell leave the area to avoid your presence.'

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-16, 04:43 AM
I prefer Cha, primarily because I describe the coma as 'Your soul flees your body in terror at the vile, putrid husk that it has become. The cleric can try to minister you, but the horror of your visage may make him unable to even stomache aproaching. Even the buzzing insects that had surrounded you as your Cha fell leave the area to avoid your presence.'

Charisma is quite a lot of things, appearance included, but in this case it's losing your ability to differentiate the world around you from yourself which causes you to become comatose. You're not any uglier than you used to be.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-16, 08:42 AM
Charisma is quite a lot of things, appearance included, but in this case it's losing your ability to differentiate the world around you from yourself which causes you to become comatose. You're not any uglier than you used to be.But one of the effects of low Cha is making you personally repellant. I find it far more fun to make the coma out of that.

Hawriel
2009-05-16, 08:52 AM
Off the top of my head this is what I think should happen when a stat hits 0.

STR: Paralized all volintary motor funtions are disabled. Past 0 the character is in danger of invalintary failer, which will lead to death.

DEX: Posible paralization as above. Totaly rendard helpless do to vertigo and balance issues. The inner year is shot. Muscle controle is shot. You can move but have no controle.

INT: Brain dead, or very deep coma.

WIS: Brain dead or coma. No impuls controle, no ability to see consiquence, empathy, or awarness other than the emediat self.

CHA: Total blank. Personality is wiped. No emotional connection to any thing. The body and mind funtion but here is no soul to give it character.

Optimystik
2009-05-16, 08:56 AM
But one of the effects of low Cha is making you personally repellant. I find it far more fun to make the coma out of that.

That lack of magnetism comes from you having the personality of a vegetable, not from any reduced attractiveness. It's not like a Deathshrieker (MM3) makes you spontaneously smell bad and become dirty when it drains your charisma.