Psi-Characters?

[EENick]

Did the Giant ever say anything about Psi in OotS. They have mentioned them once or twice in passing but do they even officially exist in the OotS world?

I've been hoping the Order would meet and/or fight one as that is one area totally untapped for humor.

[Raenir Salazar]

probably yes.

[Mauve Shirt]

Redcloak uses a psionic against O-Chul in 546 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

[Haven]

Redcloak used a psion to interrogate O-Chul. And there was one who showed up in a montage in "Origins of PCs". So Yeah.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Redcloak uses a psionic against O-Chul in 546 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

Yes, and that seems to suggest they are very rare. Not to much chance of them turning up later I imagine.

[EENick]

Redcloak uses a psionic against O-Chul in 546 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

Thanks! I totally missed that. I guess I just assumed he was a mage with some sort of mind spells.


Yes, and that seems to suggest they are very rare. Not to much chance of them turning up later I imagine.

While you are probably right about them not showing up, Rich doesn't seem very interested in Psionic characters, I doubt anything about being very rare keeps them out of the comic. I think a lot of stuff in OotS is very rare, particularly on the bad guys side of things. Just look at Tsukiko for example. How many mystic thurges(SP) do you suppose there are in the world? Then again as you point out of Team Evil says they are rare then maybe they really are that rare.

Maybe part of the problem too is all the popular Psi races like the Mind Flayers or the Githyanki are WotC copyrighted material.

Still it would be cool if they found an order of Psi-monks or something at some point IMO.

Edit: Sorry Dr. Cthulwho I edited slightly while you responded. My bad.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

While you might be right about them not showing up, Rich doesn't seem very interested in Psionic characters, I doubt anything about being very rare keeps them out of the comic. After all a lot of stuff in OotS is very rare, particularly on the bad guys side of things. Just look at Tsukiko for example. How many mystic thurges(SP) do you suppose there are in the world?

Maybe part of the problem too is all the popular Psi races like the Mind Flayers or the Githyanki are WotC copyrighted material.

That is a pretty good point.

[Ichneumon]

The magic-user with a tattoo and green macig in this comic could be psion: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.htm

[Forbiddenwar]

Maybe part of the problem too is all the popular Psi races like the Mind Flayers or the Githyanki are WotC copyrighted material.


Actually, the Copyright Law of 1976 allows for use of copyrighted material like this without permission. It's called Fair Use. You can look it up on wikipedia. Which is why we can still see Comic 31 and 32. (it hasn't been given a takedown notice because it doesn't infringe on copyright.)

I Imagine psionics is rare for the same reason they are not in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB. Who needs yet another completely different magic system? Psionics always struck me as power gaming, In part because few DM's have read and understood the rules. (Don't we DMs have enough to keep track of? Everything and everyone in a universe)

[Raenir Salazar]

ive read that th base psionics class is fairly well balanced.

[lord_khaine]

I Imagine psionics is rare for the same reason they are not in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB. Who needs yet another completely different magic system? Psionics always struck me as power gaming, In part because few DM's have read and understood the rules. (Don't we DMs have enough to keep track of? Everything and everyone in a universe)

comments like this allways annoyes me.
the case is that the psionics system is a better written and more balanced system than the core magic.

[EENick]

The magic-user with a tattoo and green macig in this comic could be psion: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.htm

Seems possible but there is really no way to tell.


Actually, the Copyright Law of 1976 allows for use of copyrighted material like this without permission. It's called Fair Use. You can look it up on wikipedia. Which is why we can still see Comic 31 and 32. (it hasn't been given a takedown notice because it doesn't infringe on copyright.)

I Imagine psionics is rare for the same reason they are not in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB. Who needs yet another completely different magic system? Psionics always struck me as power gaming, In part because few DM's have read and understood the rules. (Don't we DMs have enough to keep track of? Everything and everyone in a universe)

I did as you suggested and I don't see how fair use would apply here. Could you perhaps elabroate?

I just assumed that the mind flayer in the early strips was just not work WotC getting in a huff over. After all OotS is probably a very good thing for D&D.

I'll just say I disagree with you about Psi in D&D but I see your point. I'm just personally of the opinion that Psi and similar ideas breaks up the game. To many player I know just make the same wizard over and over with a different back story and the spells are so well known they loose most of their wonder they just put there heads down and hope to roll a save vs the incoming fireballs.

In my games a lot of time I'll make alternate spell lists for my world and limit how much non-casters know about them to try and restore the wonder of magic a tiny bit. Mostly though it just annoys my players when they can't get magic missle and have to experiment with new spells.


comments like this allways annoyes me.
the case is that the psionics system is a better written and more balanced system than the core magic.

I agree but I do know it gets pretty broken if people don't read a few important rules. I still remember the look on my brother's face when I showed him that he in fact could not spend all this psi-point in one round.

[PId6]

ive read that th base psionics class is fairly well balanced.
Soulknife.

[Raenir Salazar]

and?...... elaborate?

[EENick]

Soulknife.

Yea but seriously who plays a soul knife?

[MReav]

Soulknife.

I hear that soulknife was pretty gimped.

[Zeful]

comments like this allways annoyes me.
the case is that the psionics system is a better written and more balanced system than the core magic.

But it's still another system the DM must learn better than his players, it doesn't matter if it's better written, more intuitive, or more balanced than other options, it's still something the DM has to learn on top of the other rigors of running a game. Unless a system can automatically implement itself it's going to be a tedious exorcise in reading before it's used. That alone is the only reason I would never allow ToB material in my campaigns, it's something new I have to master which does not benefit me, the DM, in any fashion.

[Tingel]

Thanks! I totally missed that. I guess I just assumed he was a mage with some sort of mind spells.
It's a monster called "Blue". It's a rare specimen of goblin that has inborn psionic abilities.

[EENick]

But it's still another system the DM must learn better than his players, it doesn't matter if it's better written, more intuitive, or more balanced than other options, it's still something the DM has to learn on top of the other rigors of running a game. Unless a system can automatically implement itself it's going to be a tedious exorcise in reading before it's used. That alone is the only reason I would never allow ToB material in my campaigns, it's something new I have to master which does not benefit me, the DM, in any fashion.

Yea but GM's have to do that all the time. Clearly a LOT of GMs are cool with additional material given how many suppliments are made each year. It really just depends on the group if additional rules are cool with that group and the type of game they are trying to play.


It's a monster called "Blue". It's a rare specimen of goblin that has inborn psionic abilities.

Cool, I didn't realize it was an actual monster. Thanks! Though with Red Cloak and Pig Tails and all the goblin clerics around (to say nothing of Xykon) the Blue probably would be overshadowed on team evil if Red Cloak even kept him around.

[Tempest Fennac]

This thread, www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-95366.html , explains why Soulknives are seen as useless.

EDIT: That thread isn't loading for me. If nobody else can see it, a summary is that their lack of full BAB and generally poor unfocused classs features resulted in the class being weak.

[EENick]

True but I don't think many people really count it as a "core" Psi class despite being in the Psi 3.5 handbook.

For the most part Psion and Psi Warrior are the only two considered "core" as they were the only ones originally in the 3.0 handbook. The rest of the classes seem like they were just shoved in to the 3.5 handbook at the last moment.

[PId6]

This thread, www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-95366.html , explains why Soulknives are seen as useless.

EDIT: That thread isn't loading for me. If nobody else can see it, a summary is that their lack of full BAB and generally poor unfocused classs features resulted in the class being weak.
Yep, pretty much. Basically a Fighter that wants to be a Rogue and ends up doing neither particularly well.

[Kyronea]

Incidentally Psions are mentioned here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html

Dunno if that changes matters or not.

[NerfTW]

Actually, the Copyright Law of 1976 allows for use of copyrighted material like this without permission. It's called Fair Use. You can look it up on wikipedia. Which is why we can still see Comic 31 and 32. (it hasn't been given a takedown notice because it doesn't infringe on copyright.)


Actually, the image of the mind flayer is too generic to be copyrighted. The names are trademarked, and in fact are changed to "Brain Eater? Illithoid?" in the print version. The online strip is not fair use, it's simply beneath WOC's notice, and if they did complain, he could simply change the strip to the print version. (Most likely Rich didn't realize at the time that the names were copyrighted.)

Fair use only covers educational purposes or parody. So he can't do a recurring Psionics character, because that's not educational or parody. He can, however, do one off jokes about Psionics, because that is parody.

[hamishspence]

true: Fighting Fantasy's Brain Slayer is pretty much identical.

[EENick]

Actually, the image of the mind flayer is too generic to be copyrighted. The names are trademarked, and in fact are changed to "Brain Eater? Illithoid?" in the print version. The online strip is not fair use, it's simply beneath WOC's notice, and if they did complain, he could simply change the strip to the print version. (Most likely Rich didn't realize at the time that the names were copyrighted.)

Fair use only covers educational purposes or parody. So he can't do a recurring Psionics character, because that's not educational or parody. He can, however, do one off jokes about Psionics, because that is parody.

Well I think it isn't so much Psi characters as races that are copyright. Good point though.

[David Argall]

comments like this allways annoyes me.
the case is that the psionics system is a better written and more balanced system than the core magic.
Possibly, but those of us with long memories still recall the earlier versions, which were very broken. [I recall a party that faced an automatic run-from-or- die foe. The psionic killed it in one action.] It may be unfair, but we insist the newer versions prove themselves balanced before they get a chance to destroy our game.

[EENick]

Possibly, but those of us with long memories still recall the earlier versions, which were very broken. [I recall a party that faced an automatic run-from-or- die foe. The psionic killed it in one action.] It may be unfair, but we insist the newer versions prove themselves balanced before they get a chance to destroy our game.

I understand how you might be sceptical to take the word basically complete strangers who happen to sign up for the same forum as you but, if I may ask out of curriosity how do you suggest the newer version prove itself if not through player testimonials?

[Dagren]

Possibly, but those of us with long memories still recall the earlier versions, which were very broken. [I recall a party that faced an automatic run-from-or- die foe. The psionic killed it in one action.] It may be unfair, but we insist the newer versions prove themselves balanced before they get a chance to destroy our game.How is that possible if you refuse to use them?

[Optimystik]

Possibly, but those of us with long memories still recall the earlier versions, which were very broken. [I recall a party that faced an automatic run-from-or- die foe. The psionic killed it in one action.] It may be unfair, but we insist the newer versions prove themselves balanced before they get a chance to destroy our game.

It might take a batman wizard longer, but the monster's death is just as assured. 3.x Psionics are far more balanced in my opinion.

[Chronos]

Actually, the Copyright Law of 1976 allows for use of copyrighted material like this without permission. It's called Fair Use.Actually, WotC pulled a very clever end-run around the copyright laws in 3rd edition. Under the default copyright laws, raw information is not copyrightable, just creative presentation of it. So things like the XP table and the Wealth By Level guidelines are not actually copyrighted, but the spell descriptions (being creative) are. What WotC did, though, is they took most of the content of the game, including most of the copyrighted parts, and bundled it together into the SRD, and released it under a special license they called the Open Gaming License. The deal is, anyone is allowed to use the material covered by the OGL, on the condition that if you choose to use it, you voluntarily give up the right to copy the parts of the game that aren't OGL, such as the XP table. So basically, you have a choice: Copy the tables all you want, but don't touch the creative content, as allowed under copyright law, or take advantage of WotC's offer, use almost everything, and just don't copy those few things they hold back. Most people consider the OGL a much better deal than what copyright law would allow, but nobody's forced to take it.

[Forbiddenwar]

Fair use only covers educational purposes or parody. So he can't do a recurring Psionics character, because that's not educational or parody. He can, however, do one off jokes about Psionics, because that is parody.

This is NOT TRUE!
*Be warned the following is a huge boring lecture on Fair use and copyright law of the United States. Skip the post if you want I won't be offended. OOTS is actaully a great way to explain fair use.*

Fair Use (section 106 of the Copyright Act of 1976, the current copyright law in the US) is a complex exception, one of many, to copyrights.
Copyright are exclusive rights creators have for their works, including the right to copy, distribute, perform, display, and create derivative works.

Fair Use allows use for any and all of these rights WITHOUT Permission or license from the creator. So we can take WotC OGL license, leave it or use any other exception allowed by the law.

When a creator sues someone for infringing on their work, The accused can use the Fair Use argument. The Court, ultimately decides whether or not the use was infringing or Fair (illegal or legal) without permission. If the court rules in favor of the accused, the accuser may have to pay all the legall fees. Even if the court states that use was illegal, there is limits to damages in the accused had reason to believe it was legal. Which is why it is important that everyone have a better understanding of copyright exceptions like Fair Use.

Anyone can determine whether or not the court will think their use is Fair or not Fair ahead of time by examining the four factors that the court will examine: Purpose of the use, Nature of the work, Amount Used, and market effect on the original. These factors are studied holistically, not individually. Just because 3 out of four factors may say that the use is infringing, doesn't mean that the use itself is infringing.

Purpose of Use: These uses Favor a Fair Use argument: Teaching, Research, Scholarship, Criticism, Comment, News reporting, Transformative or productive use (changing the work for a new utility) and Parody.
These uses oppose a Fair Use argument: Entertainment, for profit.

Assessing OOTS use of copyrighted material, the use is Transformative, Rich is creating something NEW with a new purpose. This favors a Fair Use argument.

Nature of copyrighted material: If the work is published, and/or if the work is factual based, it favors Fair Use.

OOTS Use: Nonfactual work (opposses Fair Use) Published work (Favors Fair use. It's a wash.

Amount Used: There is NO percentage or quantifiable method to determine if the amount is fair or not. If the whole of the work or the "Heart" of the work (Think posting the climatic scence of a major film) is used, it would oppose a favor use argument. If a small amount, and/or the portion is not central to the copyrighted work, and the portion used is necessary for the Purpose of the use (see above), then it would favor Fair Use.

OOTS use: Psionics are not the heart of D&D, as mentioned before. This is tricky but it would probably fall under favoring fair use, Rich isn't copying the entire text of psionic rules and posting it to the page, he is (or could be) creating a story loosely based on those rules.

Market effect: This Factor examines whether or not the market for the original is affected by the use. Could the use replace the sell of the original, for example copying dvds and selling them, if so it opposes fair use, is there no reasonable licensing mechanism available for this kind of use? Is it made available online or other public forum? if so, it may oppose Fair Use.

OOTS Assessment: as mentioned by the lawyers in strip 32, psionics and other rules and monsters are not licensed under OGL, so there is no reasonable license mechanism for this use. Also, I Imagine, Rich owns a legally acquired copy of the rules (a book of psionics). Also, WotCs isn't making their own stick figure comic strip. What Rich is making isn't having a negative impact of WotC sells, I imagine the opposite is the case (in fact I think Rich should be getting a kickback for WotC for creating and expanding their sell figures) These would favor Fair Use. He is posting it online, for the long term, which would oppose fair use. In short it's either a wash or Fair use.

In short (too late)
Do NOT think that if it is educational or nonprofit or parody it is Fair Use. Do NOT think that because it is not educational that it is not Fair Use. All Factors have to be weighed.
To sum up Rich could do a LOT more with psionics and many other rule variants and many monsters (beholder, hello), if he wanted because it would probably be covered by Fair Use.

There is another exception to Copyright Law called "De Minimus non curat lex" which may also apply here, which basically states that the amount is so small it is ridiculious to think it is infringing. Rich and OOTS can also use this argument. I can't imagine WotC thinking this comic strip is infringing on thier copyright protected work since it is a narative with generic pictures that has rules similar, but not exact (to the concernation of many forum posters) to rules developed for a table top gaming system they have.

For Further information to consult:
Your closest librarian (it's all a part of the Master's degree) and your closest librarian is usually online online.
"Complete Copyright: An everyday guide for librarians" (trade secret) by Carrie Russell.
Stanford's Database of Court Cases and results regarding Fair Use.
Wikipedia: Fair Use.

Don't Mess with Me, I'm a LIBRARIAN! And my Motto is don't ask for permission if you don't need permission.

[Forbiddenwar]

Actually, WotC pulled a very clever end-run around the copyright laws in 3rd edition. Under the default copyright laws, raw information is not copyrightable, just creative presentation of it. So things like the XP table and the Wealth By Level guidelines are not actually copyrighted, but the spell descriptions (being creative) are. What WotC did, though, is they took most of the content of the game, including most of the copyrighted parts, and bundled it together into the SRD, and released it under a special license they called the Open Gaming License. The deal is, anyone is allowed to use the material covered by the OGL, on the condition that if you choose to use it, you voluntarily give up the right to copy the parts of the game that aren't OGL, such as the XP table. So basically, you have a choice: Copy the tables all you want, but don't touch the creative content, as allowed under copyright law, or take advantage of WotC's offer, use almost everything, and just don't copy those few things they hold back. Most people consider the OGL a much better deal than what copyright law would allow, but nobody's forced to take it.


Good Points Chronos. You have a good understanding of copyright. There is a third option in the choice, and that is use the material under one of the many exceptions built into copyright law, like first sale, fair use, TEACH etc. .
Perhaps this discussion should be moved to a new thread, so we don't bore too many people.

[Zevox]

Fair use only covers educational purposes or parody. So he can't do a recurring Psionics character, because that's not educational or parody. He can, however, do one off jokes about Psionics, because that is parody.
Actually, since all the Psionic rules are in the SRD, and are thus part of the OGL, The Giant could do a recurring Psionic character. Just not from one of the more iconic Psionic races (Mind Flayers, Githyanki, Githzerai) that aren't in the SRD. But adding a Human Psion to the group? Perfectly fine. Having Elan multiclass as a Wilder or V become a Cerebremancer? AOK. Making that Blue Psion Redcloak was using on O-Chul a recurring Team Evil character? Can be done. He just hasn't.

Zevox

[EENick]

Making that Blue Psion Redcloak was using on O-Chul a recurring Team Evil character? Can be done. He just hasn't.

That would be much cooler, in my opinion, then just keeping the generic clerics hanging around redcloak the way they've been doing lately.

Though actually I think it is far more likely that if one shows up it will be with the Liniar Guild as they seem to try and find different classes to replace lost members.