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View Full Version : So I've got a chance to make my first Gestalt PC...



Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-15, 11:34 AM
One of my friends is going to be DMing his first campaign soon, with me and one other person as the players. He's starting us out at 1st level, but let us play abnormal characters. So my friend is going to be a custom class with the Vampire Template (but no leveling penalties since the DM says he'll just level us up "when it feels like you earned it.") I'd suggest he bring the class over here for review, but I'd prefer not to have to post here with their oversight in mind. >_>

To match what he feels is my friend's "advantage" (I know better, but w/e) the DM has said my PC can be Gestalt. The character I already had in mind was a Neanderthal (new race in Frostburn) Barbarian, frozen in ice from his own time and released thousands of years later.

Thus was born Young Male, or "Goodman Brom" as the locals who've met this elusive hunter call him. At age 12, YM is an adult Neanderthal, more agile and quick-witted than most of his vanished kind. A lean season has set in over the half-civilized country he lived in after thawing, and so he has moved into what he calls "ant hives"---the grand cities of the humans, to seek alternative forms of employment.

Statting YM out with 28 Pointbuy, 2 flaws, and a free DR 2 from his hide armor ("it's sabretooth hide, whatever," says our DM), these are the stats I came up with:

STR 8+6=14+4=16+2=17[+2 race] 19 | +4
DEX 8 +6 = 14 [-2 race] 12 | +2
CON 8 +4 = 12 [+2 race] 14 | +2
INT 8 + 4 = 12 [-2 race] 10 | +0
WIS 8 + 2 = 10 | + 0
CHA 8 + 4 = 12 | +1

28 - 10 = 18 - 6 = 12 - 4 = 8 - 2 = 6 - 4 = 2

Skill Points @ 1st level: 16

-4 Climb
-4 Craft (Spear-Whittling)
-4 Jump
-2 Survival
-2 Intimidate

Young Male, aka Goodman Brom; Neanderthal Barbarian 1; CR 1; Medium-Sized Humanoid; HD: 1d12+2 (14 HP); Init: +1; Spd: 15 ft. (3 squares); AC: 16 (10+1 dex, +4 hide, +1 buckler) FF 15, Touch 12; BaB/Grp: +1/+5; Attacks: MW Spear +5 melee (1d8+5 x2 pierce) or Javelin +6 ranged 30 ft (1d6+4 x2 pierce) or Sling +2 ranged 30 ft (1d4+4 x2 bludg.) or Club +4 melee (1d6+4 x2 bludg.); S/R: 5 ft/5 ft; SA: N/A; SQ: Neanderthal Traits, DR 2/-, Rage 1/day; Saves: Fort +4, Ref -2, Will +0; Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12

Skills & Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Brutal Throw
Climb +4, Craft [Spear-Whittling] +4, Jump +4, Survival +4*, Intimidate +3, Listen +2*, Spot +2*
*+2 natural bonus
Flaws: Slow (1/2 movement rate), Poor Reflexes (-3 Reflex Saves)

I chose Slow and Poor Reflexes because current theories suggest Neanderthal Man actually was slower than his long-legged Cro-Magnon cousin, and could only run as fast as we could trot. This was balanced out by his tougher bones and ability to rip your arms out from the socket(!!) Also note his +5 with the spear in melee is taking his buckler into account--if he drops it, he's +7 (+1 BaB, +4 Str, +1 MW, +1 Primitive Weapon bonus).

So now our DM says YM can be a gestalt character. He seems convinced that a 1st-level Vampire Demonizer is badass enough that I need all this to balance it out... well, I'm not going to strain myself to convince him otherwise. So the question is, do I take gestalt Barbarian/Fighter and further pimp out my spearing skills with Weapon Focus [Spear] and that whole tree (I have PHBII to further pimp out the focus)... or do I gestalt Rogue for more skills, a sneak attack and tumble to help out with melee (I also want YM to get some decent stealth skills.... with his slow movement rate he needs to be good at creeping up on stuff). Or maybe there are some other suggestions? TIA for all advice.

Just FYI in advance, I don't want him to start out with any magic classes (personal conceit... I'm trying to make him as close to a real Neanderthal man as possible, to begin with), and while I have the book I just don't have the time to learn the new rules from ToB (seriously, with school it's all I can do to run one campaign, intermittently play another and now this game too).

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-15, 11:40 AM
You could put totemist on the other side of the gestalt.

Play up his feral and spiritual sides.

Riffington
2009-05-15, 12:06 PM
I'm curious about this vampire template? Does that mean he gets undead levels and through each level gets one of the vampire template's powers? Or does that mean he's a custom-built class (presumably of equal power to a regular PC class?) and gets the Vampire bit for free? If so, I imagine they must make great gishes.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-15, 12:11 PM
Basically he's got the Template instead of taking levels as a Vampire as in Libris Mortis, but the DM will hand out the abilities over time as he levels up; and since we level up whenever the DM feels like it, the XP difference from his ECL won't kill him like it would in a normal campaign. As for his custom class, it's basically the AD&D Demonizer (built around summoning and controlling Demons and Devils rather than true spellcasting). He'll start out with just a lowly Lemur to boss around at first or something, I think, then slowly move his way up to Imp, and so-on. He also has a limited number spell-like abilities from the Demons' or Devils' list and can wear light armor... I told him to be sure to emphasize UMD as a class skill, maybe with the Warlock's fool magic device ability, but I don't feel in danger of being overshadowed.

Crazy Scot
2009-05-15, 12:33 PM
To me, your other side of your build begs to be a Ranger. This would give you your "hunter" feeling to it. Gives you a boost to some other "woodland" abilities. And it opens the door not too far down the road to get some minor spellcasting. (if he is spending time around other "civilized" locales he will eventually run into other casters, which would give him some knowledge and experience before becoming a caster) If you don't want to go caster, there is the non-casting variant to Ranger in one of the books somewhere (I forget which). But like I said, it seems your build is begging for something nature-oriented, and hunter-ish, which for me means ranger. And with the ranger's focus on lighter armors, it won't clash too much with your barbarian abilities either.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 12:35 PM
Scout. Gets you stealth and movement-related abilities like Rogue or Ranger, but with less overlap.

Telonius
2009-05-15, 01:39 PM
Scout1/Ranger1/Scout18 with Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) as your 6th-level feat would work nicely. Since your levels stack for Favored Enemies and Skirmish, and Barbarian covers HP and BAB on the other side of Gestalt, you'd be good to go. If you don't have room for the feat, a straight Scout20 would work just fine, too.

EDIT: By the way, how is your DM ruling the "half speed?" Half the base rate, then add on the bonuses from Fast Movement; or total up all the bonuses, and take half of that?

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-15, 04:27 PM
Actually, I just decided to apply halfspeed after adding Fast Movement (40ft/2 = 20, in hide armor that's 15) and didn't ask my DM.

EDIT: Just asked him, that's the way he wants me to do it.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-15, 04:58 PM
Gestalt barbarian/fighter all the way man.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-15, 05:28 PM
Gestalt barbarian/fighter all the way man.

I think in my heart of hearts this is what I want to do. But I'm such a Rogue-player it feels like I'm crippling myself if I'm good at nothing but combat.

But GOD I'd be good at combat. If YM, as a Barb/Fighter, drops his buckler and rages? 1 BaB + 4 Str Bonus + 1 MW Spear + 1 Prm. Wpn bonus + 2 Rage +1 Focus = +10 melee at first level.

OTOH, YM the Barb/Rogue can sneak up behind a rock, ready his javelin, chuck it at +5 (1 BaB +4 Str [Brutal Throw]) and at close range inflict an extra d6 damage with the Sneak Attack. Not to mention, the DM is all "good, good, the stronger you are the less I can hold back," so I'm thinking if I'm just a stumpy-legged tank and I come up against something I can't stab I'm gonna end up wishing I had skills in Hide/Move Silent.

It seems like Scout's a solid choice too, for the same reasons as Rogue. It would probably be wiser to balance my stabbing power with some stealth skills.... but I can taste the siren taste of Cheese. And I don't want to turn back. O_O

Chronos
2009-05-15, 06:00 PM
Barbarian/Scout sounds like the best path to me, too. The key in Gestalt is to make your two sides complement each other. With barb/fighter, you're putting a full BAB, good Fort save, and large HD to waste, since you already have all that from Barbarian. A skill class, on the other hand, gives you all those skill points and class skills, but doesn't cost you anything in BAB or HD. And given your character concept, Scout is the best skill class to choose.

dspeyer
2009-05-15, 06:04 PM
Gestalt barbarian/fighter all the way man.

barbarian // UA feated rogue is strictly better (unless you want weapon specialization). It seems appropriate for one quicker witted than the rest of his tribe.

I'd probably put barbarian // scout above it. It gets half the bonus feats, but that's probably still enough and it has a bunch of extra stuff.

Haven
2009-05-15, 07:08 PM
As a left-field suggestion: Barbarian//Psychic Warrior. Bonus feats like a fighter (not as frequent, to be sure), plus psionic powers--that can't go wrong! Well, except for the MAD involved in giving yourself Wisdom to be able to -use- any of those psychic powers...Hmm.

Yeah, you should probably stick with Barb//Scout.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-15, 07:36 PM
Wait wait, Scout gets bonus feats? o_o

Eldariel
2009-05-15, 07:44 PM
Wait wait, Scout gets bonus feats? o_o

Obviously. They're Rangers with half BAB.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 11:17 PM
I think in my heart of hearts this is what I want to do. But I'm such a Rogue-player it feels like I'm crippling myself if I'm good at nothing but combat.

But GOD I'd be good at combat. If YM, as a Barb/Fighter, drops his buckler and rages? 1 BaB + 4 Str Bonus + 1 MW Spear + 1 Prm. Wpn bonus + 2 Rage +1 Focus = +10 melee at first level.

OTOH, YM the Barb/Rogue can sneak up behind a rock, ready his javelin, chuck it at +5 (1 BaB +4 Str [Brutal Throw]) and at close range inflict an extra d6 damage with the Sneak Attack. Not to mention, the DM is all "good, good, the stronger you are the less I can hold back," so I'm thinking if I'm just a stumpy-legged tank and I come up against something I can't stab I'm gonna end up wishing I had skills in Hide/Move Silent.

It seems like Scout's a solid choice too, for the same reasons as Rogue. It would probably be wiser to balance my stabbing power with some stealth skills.... but I can taste the siren taste of Cheese. And I don't want to turn back. O_OFeat Rogue, from UA. Feat progression of a Fighter, but all the Rogue class feature(except SA) and 8+int skills. Though I still think Scout is better.

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-16, 01:57 AM
I was going to suggest Psychic Warrior/Barbarian too... Psychic Warrior is one of those classes that even though it's a fighting class, compliments with other fighting classes fairly well. With a little imagination, this could probably work even. You'd be one weird, and scary caveman.

Barbarian/Druid might not be a bad way to go either. The line between Druid and Shaman is pretty blurry.

Fighter/Rogue has merit.

I also wonder about how practical a Warlock/Fighter or Warlock/Barbarian would be.

Chronos
2009-05-16, 01:50 PM
I also wonder about how practical a Warlock/Fighter or Warlock/Barbarian would be.Well, if nothing else, you'd have a better attack bonus for your Eldritch Blasts. And you could pick fighter feats to improve your blast's effectiveness. You'd probably want to go with the Eldritch Glaive shape to get the most out of it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-16, 02:33 PM
A Warlock > Hellfire Warlock > Binder / (Spirit Lion Totem) Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy variant) would make for a really nasty glass cannon.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-16, 02:45 PM
First of all, you can apply your own bonuses and penalties in whichever order benefits you the most, so you can cut the 30 ft. speed in half down to 15, then add the +10 for barbarian. Furthermore, the character would have the flaw from birth, before he has any class levels, so regardless you should add the +10 after it's been reduced by half.

I'd suggest going Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian), which trades Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip and Track, and take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). Scout is a good class to take with it, or maybe get something like Spellthief/Occult Slayer/Survivor on the other side. Hexblade is also a nice fit for a witch doctor/warrior type of character, though you could flavor Spellthief the same way. Switch the Hexblade's Familiar for the PH2 Dark Companion class feature. I'd use a Tigerskull Club from Frostburn, and take two levels in Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow and Trip tricks. Either Wolf Totem Barbarian 20// Scout 6/ EWM 2/ Scout 12, or Wolf Totem Barbarian 20// Hexblade or Spellthief 5/ Occult Slayer 1/ EWM 2/ Occult Slayer 4/ Survivor 5/ Hexblade or Spellthief 3.

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 03:29 PM
Obviously. They're Rangers with half BAB.

They get half BAB?

Eldariel
2009-05-16, 03:42 PM
They get half BAB?

Medium. Bleh. "Wops"?