Who gives Tsukiko her clerical spells?

[EENick]

As I understand it Tsukiko is part wizard and part cleric and can cast both arcane and divine spells. So my question is which god is giving Tsukiko a pipeline to the arcane. If it is the 12 Gods, which seems most likely, it seems like she would have royally ticked them off with what she's been up to lately. (I don't think thor would be still hooking up Durkon if he joined Xykon's side.) Does she worship the Dark One like Red Cloak?

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been clearly stated and there doesn't seem to be any obvious canidates.

[Elderac]

In Start of Darkness, it is revealed that some of the 12 gods have an evil bent. I don't have that in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Rat is one of them. She could possibly worship that part of the pantheon.

[EENick]

Wouldn't they still be a little ticked she helped displace and kill most of there worshipers and now in essence have started working with the agents of another god?

[Snake-Aes]

She could be a cleric of Evil itself. Deities aren't mandatory.

[hamishspence]

they are in The Realms.

While this isn't The Realms, in SOD one of the gods complains about the lack of power that her druids have (before the gods created low level monsters).

Implying that druids, in OoTS, like in Faerun, but unlike in standard D&D, default to getting their power from deities.

If this is the case for druids, it seems plausible that the same applies to clerics- they all get power from a being rather than an abstract.

the paladins also speak regularly of the powers "granted by the Twelve Gods" and the Miko Fall scene looks like the gods cutting off that power. Some people interpret this as artistic licence though.

[Snake-Aes]

they are in The Realms.

While this isn't The Realms, in SOD one of the gods complains about the lack of power that her druids have (before the gods created low level monsters).

Implying that druids, in OoTS, like in Faerun, but unlike in standard D&D, default to getting their power from deities.

If this is the case for druids, it seems plausible that the same applies to clerics- they all get power from a being rather than an abstract.

the paladins also speak regularly of the powers "granted by the Twelve Gods" and the Miko Fall scene looks like the gods cutting off that power. Some people interpret this as artistic licence though.
I can see all 12 gods agreeing to grant her paladin powers since her main job is to keep the gate safe. The Sapphire Guard, specifically, could very well be powered by more than 1 god at once, since their job does matter to every-single-god out there.

[hamishspence]

Question is, if a paladin does an act the 12 gods approve of, but which breaks the code, do they fall or not?

I've been inclined to vote Not- it may be inconsistant with the core rules, but its very consistant with the descriptions of "the twelve gods' sanctioned massacres" in SoD and War & XPs-

by most D&D sourcebooks, slaughtering helpless humanoid children, even monsters, is considered an Evil act.

[EENick]

I can see all 12 gods agreeing to grant her paladin powers since her main job is to keep the gate safe. The Sapphire Guard, specifically, could very well be powered by more than 1 god at once, since their job does matter to every-single-god out there.

Well that is my point. If all 12 gods blessed the Saphire God as they all want the gates stay safe for thier own reasons shouldn't the 12 gods be cross with Tsukiko for working against them?

And again I bring up the fact that she is helping mess over almost all the 12 gods followers in favor of Dark One loyalists.

[good_lookin_gus]

It's seems pretty common in fiction for deities and demigods to risk their very existence in order to get ahead. So, one of the 12 Gods could be at work hoping to displace followers of the more popular gods and betting that Team Evil will not ultimately succeed. Alternatively, she could be worshiping an Archdevil or Demon Lord.

[hamishspence]

there is the "high priest of this demon-prince guy" back in Dungeon crawling Fools- the goblin in the dark purple cloak. Maybe demons, devils, etc offer clerical power in Stickverse?

We don't know that she follows one of the 12, after all- its just the most likely answer. She might follow a foreign deity.

[Kish]

Minor SoD spoilers.

Rat, Tiamat, and Loki are allies of the Dark One. Whether the Dark One would deal honorably with them if his Plan worked, and whether they secretly know about and support his Plan, we don't know, yet.

Either way, it seems that the gods are still maintaining their usual protocols (Tiger wouldn't let Thor directly assist Durkon in the Azure City battle) rather than placing all associated with the Crimson Mantle "beyond sanction," which means Tsukiko could worship any of the evil deities and expect to get spells from it; and if Tsukiko suddenly lost her spells, the Dark One could legitimately protest that the creator gods' agreement to let him operate as the god of the goblins and the supposed equal of the others had been violated.

[Tingel]

Due to Rat's shady business (see the spoiler in Kish's post above mine), the fact that Tsukiko's homeland is "the South", and the iconic association between rats and disease and decay (which are domains of necromancy) I have always assumed that Tsukiko's patron deity is in fact Rat.

[EENick]

Minor SoD spoilers.

Rat, Tiamat, and Loki are allies of the Dark One. Whether the Dark One would deal honorably with them if his Plan worked, and whether they secretly know about and support his Plan, we don't know, yet.

Either way, it seems that the gods are still maintaining their usual protocols (Tiger wouldn't let Thor directly assist Durkon in the Azure City battle) rather than placing all associated with the Crimson Mantle "beyond sanction," which means Tsukiko could worship any of the evil deities and expect to get spells from it; and if Tsukiko suddenly lost her spells, the Dark One could legitimately protest that the creator gods' agreement to let him operate as the god of the goblins and the supposed equal of the others had been violated.


Thanks! That is basically what I was looking for. I guess I'll have to get SoD next paycheck.

[Dark Matter]

No god can "complain" if some other god refuses to give one of his own clerics spells.

Tsukiko is Evil and on team Evil. Ergo her god is evil.

Tsukiko keeps getting spells. Ergo her god wants her there.

Now that *might* mean she's there as a double agent (either knowingly or unknowingly). I.e. those three fiends might report to someone who doesn't like the idea of Team Evil destroying the world.

It also might mean her god either backs Team Evil or is so out of touch (or insane) she doesn't care.

[Scarlet Knight]

I have not read SoD, but in the first crayon story, Monkey appears to be chaotic.

So maybe not all of the 11 other Gods besides Rat are cross with Tsukiko.

[Optimystik]

Of the 12, Rat and Snake are evil, just as they are in other forms of fantasy. Tsukiko likely worships one or both. She is certainly Southern from her name.

[Berserk Monk]

they are in The Realms.

While this isn't The Realms,

You just answered your own comment(?).

Anyway, Tsukiko probably does worship Rat, and she has violated nothing because she doesn't know about the Gates and so does know she'd helping Team Evil with their deicidal plan. I also highly doubt an evil god cares what happens to worshipers of the rest of the pantheon.

[Chronos]

I have not read SoD, but in the first crayon story, Monkey appears to be chaotic. What does that have to do with Tsukiko, though? She's definitely not chaotic.

And it is possible in Stickworld to be a cleric of a cause, not any specific deity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).

[hamishspence]

But once you become cleric of a cause- that cause becomes personified- Banjo started of as a cause- but he may now be the deity Banjo. :smallbiggrin:

[dps]

You just answered your own comment(?).

Anyway, Tsukiko probably does worship Rat, and she has violated nothing because she doesn't know about the Gates and so does know she'd helping Team Evil with their deicidal plan. I also highly doubt an evil god cares what happens to worshipers of the rest of the pantheon.


Well, technically, Redclock's goal is to coerce the gods into giving him what he wants, not kill them. Killing them is the backup plan. And Xykon just wants power; he thinks control of the gates will give him will give him power in the current world and has no desire to have it unmade and remade by the Dark One ("Hey, I like the world. Some of my best Evil was done here") (that quote may not be 100% accurate, as I typed it from memory, but that's the jist of it), and I don't think Tsukiko or the hobgoblins are really in on exacty what Redcloak intends. So it's a bit of a stretch IMO to speak of Team Evil's "deicical plan".

Not sure that really needed spoilering. It does touch on SoD material, but I don't think there's anything there that hasn't been posted unspoilered before, but if I'm mistaken about that, at least I won't be the one spoiling it.

[SoC175]

Wouldn't they still be a little ticked she helped displace and kill most of there worshipers and now in essence have started working with the agents of another god?
Just one large city, not "most" of their worshippers. Rat is also allied to the Dark One, so that doesn't seem like a big deal (and she actually tries to displace Redcloak to becom Xykon's second anyway)

Well that is my point. If all 12 gods blessed the Saphire God as they all want the gates stay safe for thier own reasons shouldn't the 12 gods be cross with Tsukiko for working against them?
Unless Rat only works with them on this due to peer preassure and doesn't mind her clerics to undermine her fellows

[Alex Warlorn]

She could be a cleric of Evil itself. Deities aren't mandatory.

I have always found the idea of being a cleric without a deity to be on the silly side. And I have yet to encounter a campaign by a DM who uses it.

[Rhydeble]

Well, given that Tsukiko REALLY loves the undead, and that she has a small Xykon plushy, is it not possible that her deity is, in fact, Lord Xykon? this would give Xykon divine ranks (especially if he acts as a form of secundary god to the hobgoblin legion) and thus make him able to grant Tsukiko spells. Also might explain the extent his power goes to while fighting V.

[Optimystik]

I have always found the idea of being a cleric without a deity to be on the silly side. And I have yet to encounter a campaign by a DM who uses it.

Deities aren't mandatory for divine magic: see Ur-Priest/Archivist. You just need the right mindset. Arcane magic is about learning/instinctively applying a set of formulas; Divine magic is about convincing a force with a mind of its own to do your bidding. D&D Deities are just convenient "nodes" in that id to direct your contemplation at.


Well, given that Tsukiko REALLY loves the undead, and that she has a small Xykon plushy, is it not possible that her deity is, in fact, Lord Xykon? this would give Xykon divine ranks (especially if he acts as a form of secundary god to the hobgoblin legion) and thus make him able to grant Tsukiko spells. Also might explain the extent his power goes to while fighting V.

Xykon isn't a deity, and Tsukiko was a MT before she even met him. It was on the resumé she handed him.

[Rhydeble]

Xykon isn't a deity, and Tsukiko was a MT before she even met him. It was on the resumé she handed him.

might be that afterwards she lost the powers from her first deity. (because she helped in releasing the god-killing abomination) Then she took a new one that did comply with her goals (I.E. Xykon or the dark one)

[Optimystik]

might be that afterwards she lost the powers from her first deity. (because she helped in releasing the god-killing abomination) Then she took a new one that did comply with her goals (I.E. Xykon or the dark one)

What on earth are you basing any of that on?

The DO is a goblin deity and quite explicitly hates humans [SoD].
Xykon is not a deity.
We don't know what opinion the southern gods have of her actions concerning the Snarl.
Tsukiko had nothing to do with the gate's destruction.

[NerfTW]

It should be noted that

the gods do not care about someone taking control of the gates!

They don't know about the Dark One's plan to use it against them, and may actually know that it's impossible. They could care less if the world gets destroyed. They already know where to hide from the Snarl and how to seal it. The only reason they left the rifts alone was because they didn't want to undo the world themselves.

If push comes to shove, and the Snarl is released, they'll simply hide in the outer planes again and make World 3.0.

Therefore, Tsukiko can problably worship one of the Southern gods and still attempt to control the gate, because they don't know the part of the plan involving holding them hostage.

[Kobold-Bard]

It should be noted that

the gods do not care about someone taking control of the gates!

They don't know about the Dark One's plan to use it against them, and may actually know that it's impossible. They could care less if the world gets destroyed. They already know where to hide from the Snarl and how to seal it. The only reason they left the rifts alone was because they didn't want to undo the world themselves.

If push comes to shove, and the Snarl is released, they'll simply hide in the outer planes again and make World 3.0.

Therefore, Tsukiko can problably worship one of the Southern gods and still attempt to control the gate, because they don't know the part of the plan involving holding them hostage.

So thats how 4e happened :smallamused:

[Kornaki]

Just because they got lucky and were able to hide from the snarl last time doesn't mean they'd be able to do it again. I would think they'd rather play it safe and keep the trap up

[Leta]

So why does it have to be one of the Southern gods? What if there's a god of the undead or something along those lines?

[Nevermore]

... or maybe, just maybe she's an archivist or some other divine class

[NerfTW]

Just because they got lucky and were able to hide from the snarl last time doesn't mean they'd be able to do it again. I would think they'd rather play it safe and keep the trap up

Because in the Crayons of Time arc, they specifically stated that they could fix the holes by unmaking the world and trying again, but didn't want it to come to that. Since they presumably keep an eye on anything involving the gates, the second the Snarl breaks loose, they'd already be remaking the world.

[badam104172]

man... it really sucks that the standard d&d pantheon isn't in the comic. if it were, it'd easily be Nerull :smallmad:

[Zevox]

man... it really sucks that the standard d&d pantheon isn't in the comic. if it were, it'd easily be Nerull :smallmad:
The Giant couldn't use the standard D&D Deities if he wanted to. They're copyrighted and not OGL. Much like Mind Flayers, he could make a quick comic or two making fun of them, but they couldn't be recurring characters. The only exceptions being ones that come from well-known mythology anyway, like Tiamat.

As for Tsukiko, who knows? Its not like we know who all the gods are in the OotS world anyway, and Elan's early-on comment does imply that the standard D&D rule that allows Clerics of a "cause" to exist applies in this world, which may mean she has none. I imagine we won't find out unless it becomes relevant to the plot/a joke.

Zevox

[Wyvv]

man... it really sucks that the standard d&d pantheon isn't in the comic. if it were, it'd easily be Nerull :smallmad:

I'd think it'd be Evening Glory, but then I suppose you may not consider that standard.

[DrunkMonkGar]

I still put my money on Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead and occasional deity. Though the points made for it being Rat make a lot of sense.

[Froogleyboy]

who said she was a cleric? she could be some other divine class.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Ever since the battle of Azure City, I'm pretty sure her god is now Xykon.

[Optimystik]

So why does it have to be one of the Southern gods? What if there's a god of the undead or something along those lines?

What makes you think the two are mutually exclusive? There are twelve of them, after all.

The assumption that she gets her powers from one of the 12 comes from the fact that (a) she is definitely Southern, and (b) the Southern gods at least are very territorial.

[shadzar]

Xykon cannot grant her spells, he is not a god, otherwise he would know his efforts to use the gates or snarl in some way is futile.

Considering Tsuki and her affections being shown and the way she acts, I see her symbolic of Eve in the garden, which would make her god that gives her spells to be the snake in the same garden. This snake which convinced her to take a bite of the apple of evil from the tree of alignment and now through granting her her spells has its will of evil spread throughout the world.

OR was mentioning that sort of thing and symbolism opening up a Pandora's Box for the forums? :smalleek:

[Kyronea]

who said she was a cleric? she could be some other divine class.

She's a Mystic Theurge, meaning she has to have at least some levels in one other class able to cast Divine Spells. Generally speaking the best class for this purpose would be cleric, and even if it wasn't, it's likely that Tsukiko has a deity of choice in any event.

[Lkctgo]

Isn't it obvious? She gets her power from Belkar. The Sexy shoeless God Of WAR!
As a side note, apart from the absurdity of Belkar being a god, everything else fits.

[EENick]

What makes you think the two are mutually exclusive? There are twelve of them, after all.

The assumption that she gets her powers from one of the 12 comes from the fact that (a) she is definitely Southern, and (b) the Southern gods at least are very territorial.

Well at least Tiger is anyway. Do we know what alignment Tiger is? Chaotic Good? Neutral Evil?

[wootage]

Well at least Tiger is anyway. Do we know what alignment Tiger is? Chaotic Good? Neutral Evil?

Chaotic Hungry?

[Optimystik]

Chaotic Hungry?

Ferocious Neutral! :smallbiggrin:

[Volkov]

She could just venerate the power of magic itself. You don't need a god for cleric spells.

[Morty]

The gods might or might not care about Tsukiko's actions. However, I think it's pretty probable that as long as a cleric doesn't do anything else other than ask for spells every day, her god doesn't pay much attention to her.

[Moriarty]

Because in the Crayons of Time arc, they specifically stated that they could fix the holes by unmaking the world and trying again, but didn't want it to come to that. Since they presumably keep an eye on anything involving the gates, the second the Snarl breaks loose, they'd already be remaking the world.

they definitly care about their followers on the world, otherwise they would just re-make the planet. The snarl is a danger to them and they wouldn't risk setting it free. So either they don't know about RCs plan, or they wait if team evil can be stopped by mortals and only interfere if team evil is likely to succeed

[Volkov]

The gods might or might not care about Tsukiko's actions. However, I think it's pretty probable that as long as a cleric doesn't do anything else other than ask for spells every day, her god doesn't pay much attention to her.

Granting spells is such a minor action for gods that it can be done without them at all. Heck gods don't even make a conscious effort when they grant spells.

[EENick]

They seemed to pay attention to Miko. They all got together to personally make a big deal about her fall. So either Miko really WAS as special as she though or the Gods rather pay attention to those in their service.

[Volkov]

They seemed to pay attention to Miko. They all got together to personally make a big deal about her fall. So either Miko really WAS as special as she though or the Gods rather pay attention to those in their service.

Gods only really notice their followers when they are pretty high level. As a rule of thumb they don't pay attention to divine spell caster/divine power *i.e paladins and rangers* using followers until they reach level ten, and to non-divine spell caster/power using followers until level fifteen.

[EENick]

So what level, do we think, Tsukiko is then?

[Volkov]

So what level, do we think, Tsukiko is then?

Level 4 cleric, level 4 wizard, level six mystic theruge.

[Morty]

Granting spells is such a minor action for gods that it can be done without them at all. Heck gods don't even make a conscious effort when they grant spells.

Precisely my point.


They seemed to pay attention to Miko. They all got together to personally make a big deal about her fall. So either Miko really WAS as special as she though or the Gods rather pay attention to those in their service.

Miko was a paladin, and a paladin's fall is a pretty big deal. Especially a high-level one.

[Volkov]

A simple plane can grant spells according to the fiendish codex 1. The abyss uses demon lords and princes as conduits to grant spells to their clerics, and because the demons are conduits this provides different domain choices for each one. Yugoloth cultists get their power from the power of evil itself, which would fit them as Yugoloths were the first beings with an evil alignment and live on the most evil plane, from which all evil springs, The gray wastes of hades. Worshippers of Devils get their directly from their Archdukes. Note how none of these beings are actually gods, although in planescape they are more powerful than gods.

The Abyss is powerful yes, but it's will can be overruled by a mere outsider paragon. Although for Yugoloths, this is probably very different, as their leader the infamous general of gehenna is said to have the powers of a god combined with that of the powers that the mightiest of evil outsider paragons would have.

[EENick]

Level 4 cleric, level 4 wizard, level six mystic theruge.

So level 14? That seems note worthy then by the standards you suggested for divine spell casters. After reading about the Archivist however I must agree it seems likely a non-sorcerer Mystic Theurge like Tsukiko would start life as a Wizard/Archivist as opposed to a cleric.

(On a side note I'm trying to imagine a Sorcerer/Duid Mystic Theurge would be like.)