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Mystral
2009-05-15, 03:16 PM
Hi there.

No I have no problem with brothels. My players might have a problem with them, though.

I'm DMing a game (pretty standart adventure, at least up to date) and my players think that it is appropriate for their characters to visit brothels.

A lot.

I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out. I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird.

Has anyone of you ran into this "problem" and do you know how to deal with it? Is this usual player behavious? I'm not really sure, I never ran into that thing except with a troll in a game of shadowrun, and he played it for laughs.

Kylarra
2009-05-15, 03:17 PM
Start rolling up diseases. :smallamused:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=951

Epinephrine
2009-05-15, 03:19 PM
Hi there.

No I have no problem with brothels. My players might have a problem with them, though.

I'm DMing a game (pretty standart adventure, at least up to date) and my players think that it is appropriate for their characters to visit brothels.

A lot.

I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out. I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird.

Has anyone of you ran into this "problem" and do you know how to deal with it? Is this usual player behavious? I'm not really sure, I never ran into that thing except with a troll in a game of shadowrun, and he played it for laughs.

Heh. As a player? My druid got annoyed with the barbarian constanly being after tail, and slipped the DM a note that explained that I used Contagion on the barbarian once he was asleep. Nothing I couldn't fix, of course, but it got him back to adventuring. Oh, and the rest of the party had a howl about it.

As a DM it hasn't come up, but the player who is into brothels isn't in that campaign.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-15, 03:27 PM
I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird.

Then why the hell not tell them to stop? "Let's not get into detail about that - it makes me uncomfortable. Please respect that, or leave." Or even just, "Give it a rest, that's not what the game is about." (Then go back to the first one if that doesn't stop it.)

I wouldn't want to be the unwitting, unconsenting party to someone getting their rocks off to imaginary sex, and that kind of excessive interest absolutely makes some alarms go off.

Ignore any and all advice about doing anything in-game. That's not how this works. You do not deal with something that makes you, the person uncomfortable in the game - you deal with it outside the game, every single time. It's the only adult, rational, and potentially effective method. If it doesn't work, the player in question doesn't respect you as a person, and can push off.

valadil
2009-05-15, 03:27 PM
I usually state that my games are strictly R rated. Some X rated stuff may happen in the game, but the scene changes so that that's never shown on screen. Characters can whore it up all they like, but it happens off camera.

PC: "I'm gonna go check in at the brothel."
Me: "Okay, so the next day your coin pouch is 50GP lighter..."

herrhauptmann
2009-05-15, 03:29 PM
I made that mistake once, being over interested into sex/alcohol for a 2nd Edition fighter in Ravenloft.
Well, we got to Richemulot (ruled by a clan or wererats), and my character made the mistake of hitting on a the sister of the domain lord.
The lycanthropy mechanic was a percentage roll that went up by 5% each time you got bit. And the DM decided that since a bite was a transmission of fluids like rabies, sex would also offer a chance for infection. 7% for each time you got laid by a lycanthrope (even in their human form).
For my character, DM ruling said that anytime he had sex, there was a chance it would trigger a change. Granted it didn't happen until a game year later, when another character bought me a woman. (I think he knew it would happen)

Satyr
2009-05-15, 03:30 PM
I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out.

"Professional, clean and anonymous. You got what you paid for," *roll with
hidden result, chuckle a bit*


I guess your players aren't old enough to buy their own beer, right?

To enter didactic speech: Your players are probably in the process of developing their own sexuality and have not yet completely learned to cope with the physical and mental changes which are a part of the sexual development. As the average adolescent undergoes this process of coping with the own urges, insecurity become a major factor, and is frequently overcompensated. Now, the roleplaying game allows them to impersonate people with a "healthy" (meaning proactive) sexuality and a mean to layfully deal with a topic that becomes increasingly important for them, and with which they cannot yet compleltely cope with.
This passes, and is not a very unusual way of guys to deal with the whole new urge situation. As soon as they don't need the alter ego to have a certain contact with sexuality, they won't need or use these foil anymore. If it is not played for laughs.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-15, 03:34 PM
I usually state that my games are strictly R rated. Some X rated stuff may happen in the game, but the scene changes so that that's never shown on screen. Characters can whore it up all they like, but it happens off camera.

PC: "I'm gonna go check in at the brothel."
Me: "Okay, so the next day your coin pouch is 50GP lighter..."

This is the way I'd generally propose handling it (although some groups do like and can deal with very explicit sexual stuff, but it has to be consented to by everyone, and if you don't like it you should not consent).

In some games and settings, it's thematically appropriate - how could you play in the Hyborian Age of R. E. Howard's Conan stories and not blow all your loot on ale and whores after every adventure? But there's absolutely no need for details. "Over the next three weeks, you spend all your loot on courtesans and alcohol. One morning, you roll out of bed and find nothing but a few coins left - and there's still last night's bill to pay to the barman."

Edit:

To enter didactic speech: Your players are probably in the process of developing their own sexuality and have not yet completely learned to cope with the physical and mental changes which are a part of the sexual development. As the average adolescent undergoes this process of coping with the own urges, insecurity become a major factor, and is frequently overcompensated. Now, the roleplaying game allows them to impersonate people with a "healthy" (meaning proactive) sexuality and a mean to layfully deal with a topic that becomes increasingly important for them, and with which they cannot yet compleltely cope with.
This passes, and is not a very unusual way of guys to deal with the whole new urge situation. As soon as they don't need the alter ego to have a certain contact with sexuality, they won't need or use these foil anymore. If it is not played for laughs.

This sounds very familiar. Way back when we started playing together in our teens, sexual encounters were much more frequent and somewhat more detailed (although things still faded away before anything really started, but there was much lewd commentary).

Age does change the dynamic of the situation somewhat, but it's still important for everyone to respect everyone else's feelings about the subject. (Perhaps even more important, really...)

JeenLeen
2009-05-15, 03:34 PM
I'm DMing a game (pretty standart adventure, at least up to date) and my players think that it is appropriate for their characters to visit brothels.

[...]

I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out. I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird.

I think these two paragraphs go between acceptable and unacceptable. If it were just that they were going to brothels and not making a big deal about it, I would say roll for diseases as a joke. No-one is bothered, no-one thinks it a big deal, and if some player wants to have his character do that, that's fine.

But if some players are getting too explicit or making you uncomforting by asking for results, then state it out-of-game and explain that if something makes you or another player uncomfortable, then it doesn't work for the game.
They could reply that "that's your problem" and while that is true, it's not an excuse. The game is a group of people, all of whom should be having fun. If someone is made uncomfortable, then it should be discussed.

nightwyrm
2009-05-15, 03:35 PM
My group are all ppl in their 20s and 30s so it's not a big deal for us.

Player: My PC goes to the brothel.
DM: Ok, do you go for the expensive or the cheap one?
Player: The cheap one.
DM: Ok, you spent the night with some cheap hookers. What's your fort defense again?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-15, 03:36 PM
Start rolling up diseases. :smallamused:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=951

Ahem. There's a 3.0ed unofficial sourcebook called the "Book of Erotic Fantasy" with such delights as Asteral's Doom (1d8 STR, 3d8 CON damage), Crotch Plague (1d2 CON), Crimson Welts (1d2 CON, 1d2 CHA) and Black Withering (1d8 CON, 1d8 WIS) (each with a description) and rules such as "in general, a character with a STD suffers -2 to diplomacy checks, increasing to -4 if it becomes widely known".



Don't judge me, it came as part of a bundle of 17 assorted 3.0 sourcebooks.

EDIT: You really don't want to read it. It takes creepy to a whole new level.

Mystral
2009-05-15, 03:40 PM
I guess your players aren't old enough to buy their own beer, right?

To enter didactic speech: Your players are probably in the process of developing their own sexuality and have not yet completely learned to cope with the physical and mental changes which are a part of the sexual development. As the average adolescent undergoes this process of coping with the own urges, insecurity become a major factor, and is frequently overcompensated. Now, the roleplaying game allows them to impersonate people with a "healthy" (meaning proactive) sexuality and a mean to layfully deal with a topic that becomes increasingly important for them, and with which they cannot yet compleltely cope with.
This passes, and is not a very unusual way of guys to deal with the whole new urge situation. As soon as they don't need the alter ego to have a certain contact with sexuality, they won't need or use these foil anymore. If it is not played for laughs.

One is in college (as am I), the other is in his thirties and lives with his girlfriend. Who sometimes sits at the table, although he never "went to the brothel" when shes in the room. So no such luck.

And I read the BOEF. I'd never use or allow it in my campaign, except a few parts of it (that kiss of life spell, for example)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 03:44 PM
Ahem. There's a 3.0ed unofficial sourcebook called the "Book of Erotic Fantasy" with such delights as Asteral's Doom (1d8 STR, 3d8 CON damage), Crotch Plague (1d2 CON), Crimson Welts (1d2 CON, 1d2 CHA) and Black Withering (1d8 CON, 1d8 WIS) (each with a description) and rules such as "in general, a character with a STD suffers -2 to diplomacy checks, increasing to -4 if it becomes widely known".

EDIT: You really don't want to read it. It takes creepy to a whole new level.You do want to read it, but not for mechanics like that. You want it for the racial and culture fluff(far better than most WotC printed stuff) and rules on stuff like pregnancy+polymorph. Rules for the situations where the DM is too dumbfounded to even consider it.

Narmoth
2009-05-15, 03:49 PM
Okay, this is how my group (all men, 18, 21,22,25 years of age, dm the youngest) deal with this:

The player (my player that is) enters the establishment, often a tavern, as separate brothels weren't THAT common in medieval times.
Cha check to find someone of more than average looks (I'm a fallen paladin, so that's not hard)
Tell how much you pay, and I usually add in that the sum above what the pimp is charging, is what I pay to the girl personally, using this to justify that it's not an evil deed (Which it is. Just for the record. 9/10 times, she's forced into it, not doing it because it's the way she wants to earn money)

Roll ST for diseases, modified by any factor the DM judges necessary.
Done.

xPANCAKEx
2009-05-15, 03:50 PM
just give him an STD - and if he tries to visit any other brothels they'll throw him out and alert any others in the town - dent the parties rep a bit

Ianuagonde
2009-05-15, 03:57 PM
I had a similar problem: a player who was more interested in sex than adventuring. His roleplaying was good enough to gain a long term relationship, and once every 'encounter' I had him roll a d10: "do you roll a 1 or something else?".

On a 1, he got her pregnant (roughly 3 in 30 days of good fertility). Next time he was in town, she cornered him about commitment, marriage etc. He married her, and tried very hard to build a legacy for his offspring. A level 10 adventurer is filthy rich by peasant's daughters standards, and he was nice and faithfull after all.

My advice is to steer it to a level you are comfortable with. The advice on diseases is excellent, I wish I had thought of that.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-15, 04:02 PM
EDIT: You really don't want to read it. It takes creepy to a whole new level.

Why or how? If everyone is comfortable with sex at the gaming table, what is there that's creepy about it? The book is very tasteful and pretty damn well thought-out, in my opinion. (Even the pictures, as awful as the photomanipulation is in places, are quite tasteful.)

Sex is not creepy. It's all just a matter of personal boundaries and respecting them.

The bits about sex and alignment were, in my opinion, particularly interesting. (Lawful Good does not mean you're a prude!)


One is in college (as am I), the other is in his thirties and lives with his girlfriend. Who sometimes sits at the table, although he never "went to the brothel" when shes in the room. So no such luck.

Okay, then you absolutely go with the "Stop that, it makes me uncomfortable" option.

Please ignore all the people suggesting various in-game actions. They must be intentionally trying to prolong your discomfort.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-15, 04:03 PM
(Which it is. Just for the record. 9/10 times, she's forced into it, not doing it because it's the way she wants to earn money)
Done.

Fair point. Alignment penalty every time. If he keeps at it, turn him evil.


Or, wait! If he keeps insisting to describe how it was, tell him he failed to... perform. Embarass it out of him.


Sex is not creepy. It's all just a matter of personal boundaries and respecting them.

Sex isn't creepy at all. Finding that book between Defenders of the Faith and the Fiend Folio comes as a shock though.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-15, 04:07 PM
Remember that you, the DM, might be the one who runs the whole game and have many responsibilities because of that, but you're also here to have fun - and feeling uncomfortable by having to provide descriptions you'd rather not is not fun. Tell your players that when they insist on hearing more detail on how did their latest night adventure go.

Coidzor
2009-05-15, 04:14 PM
Or, alternatively, have your characters' enemies keep tabs of their habits and start attacking/setting fire to said brothels while their pants are down.

Who said Fire had to be used for killing? It can also be used to teach!

FoE
2009-05-15, 04:17 PM
1) Find a way around it. Not every city is going to have brothels, especially small towns or places that are heavily religious.

2) Fight fire with fire. Turn your discomfort into theirs. Give them horribly graphic STDs. Reveal that the brothel they walked into is actually the front for an evil cult, and the hookers are all vamps or succubi or something equally horrible. Drain a level or two off of them. Or have them wake up the next day with a bed covered in blood and a dead prostitute beside them, and the city guard is banging down the door. (I cribbed that from Sin City.)

Or just have the hookers rob them. Repeatedly. That cured me of my whore habit in Fable 2. :smallbiggrin:

Narmoth
2009-05-15, 04:18 PM
Sex is not creepy.

That depends. I made a very disturbing NPC blackguard using the dominator prestige class from that book combined with the torturist, demonologist and grey guard prestige classes. Top it with death knight-template, and you have one really disturbing encounter.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-15, 04:26 PM
Anything can be made creepy, and sex is no exception. But it is not inherently creepy.



Please ignore all the people suggesting various in-game actions. They must be intentionally trying to prolong your discomfort.

Seconded. It's also worth noting that in-game actions for something that bothers you OOC are almost never a good idea.

Narmoth
2009-05-15, 04:29 PM
Fair point. Alignment penalty every time. If he keeps at it, turn him evil.

I actually used it as a tell to show in game that my character was evil, without having to start to kick puppies. They didn't react on any evil I did to living creatures, but reacted when I desecrated a kobold corpse to scare the rest of them away.
Ah, good times....

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-15, 04:36 PM
That depends. I made a very disturbing NPC blackguard using the dominator prestige class from that book combined with the torturist, demonologist and grey guard prestige classes. Top it with death knight-template, and you have one really disturbing encounter.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I actually used it as a tell to show in game that my character was evil, without having to start to kick puppies. They didn't react on any evil I did to living creatures, but reacted when I desecrated a kobold corpse to scare the rest of them away.
Ah, good times....

Are you actually the guy the OP is complaining about?
:tongue:

Berserk Monk
2009-05-15, 04:41 PM
Here's what you do. Make them this promise. For every date they get in real life, their character can get laid once. Either way, their character will die a virgin (anyone that obsessed with scoring in a hypothetical table top RPG probably won't be talking to any girls for quite some time, and someone with a girlfriend wouldn't care about his character getting lucky).

SoD
2009-05-15, 05:35 PM
1) Find a way around it. Not every city is going to have brothels, especially small towns or places that are heavily religious.

Not nesacerily (God, I hate that word!). Some religions (even, nay, especially Good aligned ones) have prostitutes as part of their lot. Some are holy people themselves, Sacred Prostitues (which I think is a PrC) are here and there around the place. You make it sound like sex is anti-religious*.

*By anti-religious, I am NOT making any comments about real world religions, or trying to compare religion in a DnD world to those of the real world. I am merely commenting on what is said in the BoeF.

Kaun
2009-05-15, 05:44 PM
Go the other way ...

.. Go into way to much detail untill everybody at the table is feeling masivly awkward... then go a bit further.

...It will be a long long time till they think of RPing there Brothle activites aggain.!!:smallyuk:

Random NPC
2009-05-15, 05:47 PM
Here's what you do. Make them this promise. For every date they get in real life, their character can get laid once. Either way, their character will die a virgin (anyone that obsessed with scoring in a hypothetical table top RPG probably won't be talking to any girls for quite some time, and someone with a girlfriend wouldn't care about his character getting lucky).
I beg to differ, but in our table the only one that does not care about getting lucky with the local bar wench is the only one that actually gets no tail at all.

When we play a band of drunken ruffians trying to spoil every virgin in town, we ain't playing that far out of our real persona. And we ain't no virgins either. :smallbiggrin:

RavKal
2009-05-15, 06:45 PM
My suggestion is to have a church in the area do some social work and the next time the PCs visit, have them discover some clerics and paladins finishing with turning the Brothel into an Orphanage.

OR you could just hit them with some really nasty diseases out of BoVD or BoEF, though I don't like opening that book. :roy:

Swordguy
2009-05-15, 07:03 PM
I'm going to assume in favor of the PCs here, just for the sake of argument.

Ideally, role-playing is an exercise in creating another person who just happens to exist as a shared figment of the group's imagination. Sexuality, much like eating or going to the bathroom, is an inherent part of everyone's makeup, and should influence actions on occasion.

I remember playing Shadowrun, and the players had just gotten back from a long recon mission - they'd been sitting in place for 20 solid hours. Everyone else went to do the usual Shadowrunner things: clean their guns, watch the trivid, surf the Matrix...this guy looked at me and said to the effect of "I'm hitting the bathroom. I've been gnawing on burritos for 20 hour, so I really gotta go."

That guy got a HUGE role-playing award for even taking that into consideration. Thus, thinking about a characters sexual desire ought to have such a response as well. with the caveat that it needs to a) not be a focus of the game, and b) not be an immature thing. It's one thing for a group of giggling teenagers to joke about hitting a brothel in search of some Treasure Type O, and it's another thing entirely to have even a paladin mention that he's been in the wilderness with nobody for company for six months, and hitting a lawful and established brothel for some relief.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-15, 08:30 PM
The issue here is not that the PCs want to visit brothels. The issue is that they demand descriptions of what happens when they do that, which the DM is not comfortable with.

Swordguy
2009-05-15, 08:51 PM
Which would fall under the "immaturity" clause.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-15, 08:52 PM
To reiterate the main point: you don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with.

I've been in games that range from "you spend 10 gp on a whore. Next day..." to "So, this is what I do with my kine Herd tonight..." - the secret to surviving is to establish your boundaries and stick with them. If one of your PCs begins pressuring you for more, just say "It was fine. Let's move on;" chances are they won't pressure you for more information. If they do, just continue with the story - don't bother engaging in an area which makes you uncomfortable.

Being firm solves most RP problems I've run into - both as DM and as a player.

BRC
2009-05-15, 08:56 PM
Player: I go to a brothel.
DM: You enter, a beautiful young woman in a revealing dress approaches you and offers you a drink.
Player: I accept it and ask her name.
DM: You take a sip. What does everybody else do tonight?
Player: Wait, what happens to me with the hot chick?
DM: Oh, you don't remember anything after that. Much less how you ended up in this alleyway, stripped of all valuables, sporting a massive headache, and lacking pants.

Stormthorn
2009-05-15, 09:01 PM
The issue here is not that the PCs want to visit brothels. The issue is that they demand descriptions of what happens when they do that, which the DM is not comfortable with.

Just invite me over to take over for that bit. Not that i have much roleplaying experiance but i have been complimented on storytelling ability and im not frightened of sexuality. I did roleplay a pansexual fallen angel once. Or more than once.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-15, 09:02 PM
Player: I go to a brothel.
DM: You enter, a beautiful young woman in a revealing dress approaches you and offers you a drink.
Player: I accept it and ask her name.
DM: You take a sip. What does everybody else do tonight?
Player: Wait, what happens to me with the hot chick?
DM: Oh, you don't remember anything after that. Much less how you ended up in this alleyway, stripped of all valuables, sporting a massive headache, and lacking pants.

... quite so.

RavKal
2009-05-15, 09:04 PM
Player: I go to a brothel.
DM: You enter, a beautiful young woman in a revealing dress approaches you and offers you a drink.
Player: I accept it and ask her name.
DM: You take a sip. What does everybody else do tonight?
Player: Wait, what happens to me with the hot chick?
DM: Oh, you don't remember anything after that. Much less how you ended up in this alleyway, stripped of all valuables, sporting a massive headache, and lacking pants.

But that's a genuine punishment, and the player will demand his stuff back or go kill everyone in the brothel or what have you.

Gotta be careful here, since it does sound like an immaturity thing. And like I said before, if you change their access to the brothels, you'll be fine.

The reason I would avoid outright punishing the player is based on personal experience with a past DM, wherein I decided to go kill some wild creatures instead of running to the plot, and thus had EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF MY BEING TORN AWAY.

Do not directly affect the player: affect the world.

BRC
2009-05-15, 09:07 PM
But that's a genuine punishment, and the player will demand his stuff back or go kill everyone in the brothel or what have you.

Gotta be careful here, since it does sound like an immaturity thing. And like I said before, if you change their access to the brothels, you'll be fine.

The reason I would avoid outright punishing the player is based on personal experience with a past DM, wherein I decided to go kill some wild creatures instead of running to the plot, and thus had EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF MY BEING TORN AWAY.

Do not directly affect the player: affect the world.
Yeah, it's not the best of ways to handle this. The best way is probably to simply refuse to go into detail about it, but that's not the most amusing way.

ocato
2009-05-15, 09:24 PM
Player: I go to the brothel
DM: Okay, you have a good time and spend a few gold pieces.*
Player: Wait, tell me what happens.
DM: You know what happens, just imagine a past experience or a film you've seen or something.
Player: Describe it to me!
DM: Dude.
Player: Sorry.

*a few silver is a day's wage, if I recall. 5g at a cheap brothel is probably not unheard of.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-15, 10:25 PM
Great way to "relieve" adventurers of some of their money :smallwink:
Just use the rules for daily costs for high level chars, and apply it to their scheduled visits. The first time the group find themselves lacking money to buy their itens, because they went a bit too many times to have some professional fun last month, they'll start to behave.

Or get poor, their choice.

Don't forget to make their pimp a broken 20th level wizard. Or warblade. But make him dress as a low level bard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 11:40 PM
Great way to "relieve" adventurers of some of their money :smallwink:
Just use the rules for daily costs for high level chars, and apply it to their scheduled visits. The first time the group find themselves lacking money to buy their itens, because they went a bit too many times to have some professional fun last month, they'll start to behave.

Or get poor, their choice.

Don't forget to make their pimp a broken 20th level wizard. Or warblade. But make him dress as a low level bard.For that, I need to introduce a concept I've been eyeing for a while. Disguise is a Dread Necro class skill. Cha is their casting stat. Figuring 10th level, you're looking at +22 disguise before rolling or any optimization. A high level DN has an insanely high number of undead controlled. Zombies still have the flesh. No one will notice if the girl doesn't talk much.

This forum needs a devil smiley.

Dhavaer
2009-05-15, 11:54 PM
For that, I need to introduce a concept I've been eyeing for a while. Disguise is a Dread Necro class skill. Cha is their casting stat. Figuring 10th level, you're looking at +22 disguise before rolling or any optimization. A high level DN has an insanely high number of undead controlled. Zombies still have the flesh. No one will notice if the girl doesn't talk much.

This forum needs a devil smiley.

They might notice the smell or the temperature, though.

Kylarra
2009-05-15, 11:57 PM
They might notice the smell or the temperature, though.Prestidigitation! :smalleek:

JadedDM
2009-05-16, 12:30 AM
That guy got a HUGE role-playing award for even taking that into consideration.

But then you risk the consequence of the PCs pooping all over the place! *obscure Goblins joke*

shadzar
2009-05-16, 01:42 AM
I will say if you don't want brothels to play a large part of you game, then start dishing out some negative things from THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE (http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/netbooks/CarnalGuide/carnal.txt).

It has worked wonders for me over the years. Sadly it turned a few players into illicit acts with farm animals. :yuk: (They were informed to handle it off camera in their free time while everyone else was doing other things and went unspoken of.)

Kylarra
2009-05-16, 02:36 AM
I have to admit I was being somewhat facetious with the whole disease thing, but it is an actual possible consequence of visiting too many medieval-era brothels, and one you should consider if they continue to do it all the time.

On the other hand, that really doesn't address your issue other than possible dissuading them from going to the brothels and skirting the whole uncomfortable issue. I'll throw in another nod towards talking to your players out of game about your concerns.

imp_fireball
2009-05-16, 02:47 AM
Here's an idea: Get the players involved in brothel related quests. Some issue will come up. Some violent NPCs will start abusing hookers while the PCs are getting their own thing on. Catastrophy strikes.

Alternatively, a cult of people for celibacy start pursuing the PCs. One of the priests is very weird (like that guy from hard justice machinima weird). Potential for comedy.

Although eventually it comes to the point where you, the GM will have to say, "Alright do you guys wanna get serious and progress or not?"

You could also tell them this in the form of having the BBEG attack the town, which includes a whole lot of his mooks bursting into said brothel and nabbing whores. The PCs will probably be all, "Aw, now we gotta bring 'em back! It's our er... duty. Yah, something like that."

I think the solution's pretty simple when I look at it.


I have to admit I was being somewhat facetious with the whole disease thing, but it is an actual possible consequence of visiting too many medieval-era brothels, and one you should consider if they continue to do it all the time.

Mind you, the mundane diseases are actually quite minor (compared to some of the stuff out there) and can be cleared up with a cleric in a pinch.

Although screwing one too many nymphs might give you a magical disease (which makes sense, given their nature), which can get messy.

shadzar
2009-05-16, 03:07 AM
Mind you, the mundane diseases are actually quite minor (compared to some of the stuff out there) and can be cleared up with a cleric in a pinch.

Although screwing one too many nymphs might give you a magical disease (which makes sense, given their nature), which can get messy.

Yeah but with certain contact related diseases you have to wonder if a cleric would want to risk performing a touch spell on your to cure you. :smallyuk:

Temple High Priest: So Bob how exactly did you get herpes?
Bob the Priest: Well I was just performing a special cure disease on an adventure, and...
Temple High Priest: Sure Bob. This is your third offense, and we are going to have to revoke your healing license due to possible lawsuits that may come in the future. It seems you perform your touch spells a little too carelessly, and some of our regular female worshipers are a bit unsettled by it.
Bob: :smalleek:

So the thing is would the clerics find such actions as punishments form the gods for improper acts and refuse to administer said disease curing and leave it up to the party clerics, or will they just mindlessly cure anyone of anything?

Randel
2009-05-16, 06:29 AM
Alternatively, the brothels are staffed by non-humans.

All the human women are getting jobs toiling in the fields or fighting were-cows. The prostitutes are all female goblins and ogres who don't feel like getting killed for xp.

xanaphia
2009-05-16, 07:07 AM
It's one thing for a group of giggling teenagers to joke about hitting a brothel in search of some Treasure Type O, and it's another thing entirely to have even a paladin mention that he's been in the wilderness with nobody for company for six months, and hitting a lawful and established brothel for some relief.

I find that hard to reconcile with my impression of paladins. That just doesn't seem LG to me. I know it's not rational, but it would certainly screw up my RPing.

Also, how many prostitutes are happy about their job? Especially in medieval times, I don't think that many.

Also: A married paladin couple solves so many problems, and makes life so much easier.

xanaphia
2009-05-16, 07:11 AM
Although screwing one too many nymphs might give you a magical disease (which makes sense, given their nature), which can get messy.

I disagree entirely. To start with, in my opinion, a nymph would almost never have sex with anyone but a CN/NG druid that she had known for ages. They're not succubi, you know. Same goes for dryads.

I don't think you can get STDs from dryads. It just...doesn't fit. Splinters in unpleasant places maybe.

Also, what nerds are we. "Can you get STDs from nymphs?" What losers.

RavKal
2009-05-16, 08:03 AM
Prestidigitation! :smalleek:

is there anything that spell can't do?

Satyr
2009-05-16, 08:20 AM
I disagree entirely. To start with, in my opinion, a nymph would almost never have sex with anyone but a CN/NG druid that she had known for ages. They're not succubi, you know.

And what do you think the term "nymphomanic" is based on? Remember, when something derives from Greek mythology, there is a fair chance that it humps pretty much everything that moves (and a few ones that doesn't... there is a story about Achilles falling in love with the Amazon Queen Penthesilea after he killed her). And nymphs are the among the nicer of those creatures (thanks to Greek ideas of how women behave and think). Satyrs on the other hand... Satyrs are not picky. At all.


I don't think you can get STDs from dryads. It just...doesn't fit. Splinters in unpleasant places maybe.

Greenflies. Those tiresome, tiresome greenflies.


Also, how many prostitutes are happy about their job? Especially in medieval times, I don't think that many.

That can deeply depend on the setting. I know at least three different fantasy settings where temple prostitutes are highly revered and worshipped, similar to the companions in Firefly.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-16, 08:24 AM
I disagree entirely. To start with, in my opinion, a nymph would almost never have sex with anyone but a CN/NG druid that she had known for ages. They're not succubi, you know. Same goes for dryads.

Or, you know, anyone else she's happened to fall in love/lust with. Nymphs are people too.

Also have you ever heard of the Nymph's Kiss feat? It specifies that you have to have a romantic relationship with a fey for it to work, although it could easily be a pixie or nixie...

Swordguy
2009-05-16, 08:25 AM
I find that hard to reconcile with my impression of paladins. That just doesn't seem LG to me. I know it's not rational, but it would certainly screw up my RPing.

Also, how many prostitutes are happy about their job? Especially in medieval times, I don't think that many.

Also: A married paladin couple solves so many problems, and makes life so much easier.


When I first came to these forums and started posting, I was fairly vocal that D&D was supposed to be "medieval times plus some magic and fantastic critters". I got shouted down - a LOT - that D&D has absolutely nothing to do with Medieval Europe except for some superficial similarities; high fantasy. Well, now, in the interests of schadenfreude, I'm passing that same point onto you. D&D ISN'T "Medieval Europe plus magic", it's completely separate. Just because something is true there, doesn't whatsoever mean it's true here.

Further, there have been many, MANY religious sects throughout history that have had prostitution as a legal and voluntary part of their services. India, for example, has a whole bunch of churches literally covered with explicit sculpture - if religion is a celebration and sharing of life, then celebrating and sharing what creates life is only logical, y'know?

Finally, I find your concept that a brothel cannot be lawful or good (more with the "good" issue, I suspect, than with the "lawful"), and thusly a paladin cannot avail herself of the services offered to be extremely narrow-minded. Really; read the BoEF. It deals with specifically this point, and hits the point out of the ballpark. Just as lawful good doesn't mean "lawful nice", neither does lawful good have to mean "lawful celibate" (allowing for the dictates of whatever church the Paladin follows, of course). The Paladin simply must ensure that the workers at the brothel are NOT being held there in slavery and are there of their own free will. If they're slaves or chattel, the Paladin is duty-bound to free them. If not, and the brothel is there legally, then there's nothing about the situation that is neither lawful nor good. And before it gets brought up, there are certainly brothels where both of those are the case, even in modern times. I point you, for example, to The Bunny Ranch; both legal and 100% voluntary.


Finally, finally, I've a phobia about married paladins. Short version: My married paladin (married to an NPC with class levels) went on a long mission. While I was gone, gnolls raided the area and killed our kid. My partner went berserk (alignment shift to evil in here) and went all genocide-y on the gnolls, and when neighboring kingdoms wouldn't help her wipe them out, she invaded and conquered THEM. I got back, and my DM-allowed choices were: help her (read: fallen paladin) or kill the woman I
loved (goes against the churches dictates of "Honor they spouse even unto death", so fall here as well).

Narmoth
2009-05-16, 08:29 AM
Are you actually the guy the OP is complaining about?
:tongue:

Nope, I'm playing in Shademan's real life campaign in Norway.


My suggestion is to have a church in the area do some social work and the next time the PCs visit, have them discover some clerics and paladins finishing with turning the Brothel into an Orphanage.

Oh, some very bad thoughts there.

Anyway, this gave me an idea. The church and some other potential quest-givers might frown upon the character that visits brothels

Also, make it much more expensive. My character almost got broke on booze and hookers, but I did it consciously to accent the character.


... Zombies still have the flesh. No one will notice if the girl doesn't talk much.

Oh, that depends. They still detect as evil, and I scan everything. Hey, it's an at will power that my fallen paladin still have :) (homebrew)


I have to admit I was being somewhat facetious with the whole disease thing, but it is an actual possible consequence of visiting too many medieval-era brothels, and one you should consider if they continue to do it all the time.

Disease immunity is such a nice pally ability when that comes up

elliott20
2009-05-16, 08:38 AM
*Post about married paladin*

Wow, your GM really had it in for you there, didn't he? Though, in my opinion, if my paladin were to come home from his quest just to find his kid murdered and his wife having gone completely bat**** crazy, I'd have a crisis in faith enough to call for a fall as well.

anyway, er... my suggestion on the OP's issue has already been said so many times: talk to the players, and don't offer details if you're not comfortable.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 08:48 AM
I point you, for example, to The Bunny Ranch; both legal and 100% voluntary.

Actually, as much as I am in favor of everyone's right to do what they want with their own bodies (and, really, how is acting in hardcore porn films different from prostitution?), the state of legal brothels in the US can be pretty awful. "Voluntary" is... well, let's just say those places tend to include more than the average level of coercion you see in a job. The "ethically best" model currently tends to be "higher-class" unaffiliated prostitutes, who charge a lot and are very choosy about customers (who, in turn, are choosy about prostitutes). Independent courtesans, if you want to relate it to D&D.

As far as D&D goes, I agree entirely (and, like I said, I loved the BoEF on alignments; the LG paladin getting some guilt-free casual sex was brilliant and made complete sense); there's nothing inherently Evil or non-Lawful about prostitution. Local laws can be against it, certainly, but things like slavery are separate issues, not inherently part of prostitution but often found in conjunction with it (IRL, slaves historically tended to be slaves first, sex-slaves second; slaves on US plantations were often raped by their owners).

Edit: Also, if your D&D world/society is male-dominated and medieval-style (i.e. women are property first of their father, then of their husband), there technically is no such thing as a woman consenting to sex; therefore, all sex is basically just as "evil" as sex with a prostitute forced into it by a pimp or other owner or "owner."

Narmoth
2009-05-16, 10:11 AM
That can deeply depend on the setting. I know at least three different fantasy settings where temple prostitutes are highly revered and worshipped, similar to the companions in Firefly.

Yeah, that's why Malcolm was so upset about Inaras work.

But yes, it depends on the setting. In most settings, if you have dirt poor poverty, then that's where the prostitutes are recruited from. And they are doing it to survive, not because they like it. Thus, they are not doin git voluntarily, and to support this situation isn't a good aligned thing to do.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 11:02 AM
But yes, it depends on the setting. In most settings, if you have dirt poor poverty, then that's where the prostitutes are recruited from. And they are doing it to survive, not because they like it. Thus, they are not doin git voluntarily, and to support this situation isn't a good aligned thing to do.

So serfs and feudal systems are also evil? They're not doing that voluntarily and there's a hell of a lot of coercion. This is going to make things difficult...

And like I already mentioned, if your setting resembles Dark or Middle Ages, there's no such thing as a human woman meaningfully consenting to sex, especially within marriage.

Swordguy
2009-05-16, 11:41 AM
So serfs and feudal systems are also evil? They're not doing that voluntarily and there's a hell of a lot of coercion. This is going to make things difficult...

And like I already mentioned, if your setting resembles Dark or Middle Ages, there's no such thing as a human woman meaningfully consenting to sex, especially within marriage.


Boy howdy, THAT'S a fun one to debate. A Paladin being duty-bound to break up marriages because any sex that occurs within said bounds is an evil act (if no consent=rape, and consent can't be given due to power imbalance...)? It does make the whole "celibate Paladin" thing make more sense, though.

Also, if you put those stipulations (feudal systems and feudal systems being evil due to coersion methods) into a game, can Paladins even exist without falling? Also a fun question.

Almost makes me wish we had EE back, just for a day. It'd be an epic thread...

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 11:53 AM
Boy howdy, THAT'S a fun one to debate. A Paladin being duty-bound to break up marriages because any sex that occurs within said bounds is an evil act (if no consent=rape, and consent can't be given due to power imbalance...)? It does make the whole "celibate Paladin" thing make more sense, though.

Also, if you put those stipulations (feudal systems and feudal systems being evil due to coersion methods) into a game, can Paladins even exist without falling? Also a fun question.

Almost makes me wish we had EE back, just for a day. It'd be an epic thread...

This is definitely an awesome sidetrack from the OP.

A thought occurs: if prostitution involving economic coercion (i.e. "they have no other way to make a living") is evil, paladins are required to break up brothels and stop such prostitution. But if the premise was true, the prostitutes will now starve. So I guess the paladin falls either way? Unless he happens to be so rich he can set all the prostitutes up for life with his own money...

Oslecamo
2009-05-16, 12:20 PM
And like I already mentioned, if your setting resembles Dark or Middle Ages, there's no such thing as a human woman meaningfully consenting to sex, especially within marriage.

However, you need to remember that even in the dark ages there will also be women using sex to seduce men out of their own will, and there will be married women having affairs for self-satisfaction.

It's a known fact that for centuries women fought for the right to wear skimpy provocative dressings when the church would tell them to wear humble clothing.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 12:36 PM
Oh, I am so not going to bite.

Mystral
2009-05-16, 01:13 PM
I don't mind this threat being sidetracked, I got my answers and advice and am no pretty sure how to deal with this issue. I'll have some fun with diseases and what not and then tell them to stop doing this stuff or I'll start being mean.

The campaign is settled in the FR, or at least a variant I created myself, so there are churches which condone or even organize prostitution (Sune, Sharess, what have you), and I wouldn't view visiting a brothel as an evil act when the characters take a minimum effort to ensure that everything is within acceptabel borders. Not that they ever mentioning that...

Learnedguy
2009-05-16, 01:34 PM
Beer and whores is an excellent way to screw with your DM. Especially if you combine the two:smallbiggrin:

(They always bite back though. Always)

Mercenary Pen
2009-05-16, 01:52 PM
This is definitely an awesome sidetrack from the OP.

A thought occurs: if prostitution involving economic coercion (i.e. "they have no other way to make a living") is evil, paladins are required to break up brothels and stop such prostitution. But if the premise was true, the prostitutes will now starve. So I guess the paladin falls either way? Unless he happens to be so rich he can set all the prostitutes up for life with his own money...

Nope, even setting them up for life like that may not be enough. Think about it, there are plenty of men who try to seduce heiresses for the sake of getting their hands on the money of said heiresses. Also, in D&D terms, this ex-prostitute is likely to be an NPC class and unable to defend herself without hiring help. It may just be that the Paladin's moral code would force him to step down from adventuring, set up a lawful business that would provide these ex-prostitutes with an honest living where they were not being victimised in any shape manner or form and stay around for quite a while to protect them against those whom they have no other defence against.


Finally, finally, I've a phobia about married paladins. Short version: My married paladin (married to an NPC with class levels) went on a long mission. While I was gone, gnolls raided the area and killed our kid. My partner went berserk (alignment shift to evil in here) and went all genocide-y on the gnolls, and when neighboring kingdoms wouldn't help her wipe them out, she invaded and conquered THEM. I got back, and my DM-allowed choices were: help her (read: fallen paladin) or kill the woman I
loved (goes against the churches dictates of "Honor they spouse even unto death", so fall here as well).

You got stiffed for options there. If I had DMed that, I would have permitted the following:
1- Leave. All you can do now is mention her in your religious devotions.
2- Kill her in self defence (possibly because she couldn't cope with you leaving), and impose a penance upon yourself thereafter.

and probably also a few other options, but these were the ones I could think of on short notice.

Narmoth
2009-05-16, 02:55 PM
So serfs and feudal systems are also evil? They're not doing that voluntarily and there's a hell of a lot of coercion. This is going to make things difficult...

And like I already mentioned, if your setting resembles Dark or Middle Ages, there's no such thing as a human woman meaningfully consenting to sex, especially within marriage.

Yeah, the serf system is evil as well. Although most people in the setting wouldn't recognize it as such.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 03:00 PM
Yeah, the serf system is evil as well. Although most people in the setting wouldn't recognize it as such.

Like every single D&D and AD&D book ever disagrees with you. I would think that we're talking D&D evil here, right, since the word is basically meaningless IRL?

Narmoth
2009-05-16, 03:34 PM
Actually, most peasant communities in D&D seem to be freemen, peasants owning their own land, and are thus not serfs. At least the peasants in good kingdoms. That's actually one of the thing making those kingdoms good rather than any other alignment

Tengu_temp
2009-05-16, 04:33 PM
Finally, finally, I've a phobia about married paladins. Short version: My married paladin (married to an NPC with class levels) went on a long mission. While I was gone, gnolls raided the area and killed our kid. My partner went berserk (alignment shift to evil in here) and went all genocide-y on the gnolls, and when neighboring kingdoms wouldn't help her wipe them out, she invaded and conquered THEM. I got back, and my DM-allowed choices were: help her (read: fallen paladin) or kill the woman I
loved (goes against the churches dictates of "Honor they spouse even unto death", so fall here as well).

What a restrictive DM. I'd knock her out with non-lethal damage and then help her return to her senses. If that fails, and every other reasonable option too, then the second of those DM-given options is chaotic, but not good, and paladins specifically don't fall for commiting a chaotic act, only for shifting away from lawful.

hamishspence
2009-05-16, 04:38 PM
"Honor your spouse" is very subjective- and doesn't mean you have to protect them from the power of the law.

as Del Boy once put it in Only Fools & Horses when Rodney starts dating a cop:

"Police officers have to swear a vow that if necessary they will nick their own mum and dad!"

I'd say, if someone is indeed committing sufficiently serious evil acts- paladin is morally obliged to hand them over- and will not fall if they are friends, kin, or spouse.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-16, 04:41 PM
Also, once again I'd like to stress that restricting player access to brothels or making them suffer for it are very, very bad ideas. The former makes them pissed and/or want revenge, which is not healthy for the game and can only further delay it, the former will only make them seek brothels they actually can access even harder - and when they eventually find one, they will still demand descriptions.

So yeah. I know most of these ideas are jokes, but they're still very bad advice if taken seriously.

Dixieboy
2009-05-16, 05:04 PM
I had my Girlfriend play the role as one of the girls one of my players seduced.

She is a master of ruining the mood, after that the guy joined a monastery and took a vow of celibacy :smallbiggrin:

Mike_G
2009-05-16, 05:22 PM
If you want to discourage the trips to the brothel, there's always the old standby.

"You're having a great time until you discover her penis."

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-16, 05:31 PM
This is definitely an awesome sidetrack from the OP.

A thought occurs: if prostitution involving economic coercion (i.e. "they have no other way to make a living") is evil, paladins are required to break up brothels and stop such prostitution. But if the premise was true, the prostitutes will now starve. So I guess the paladin falls either way? Unless he happens to be so rich he can set all the prostitutes up for life with his own money...

If he's a PC, he is so rich that he can set all the prostitutes up for life with his own money.

Mike_G
2009-05-16, 05:40 PM
Also: A married paladin couple solves so many problems, and makes life so much easier.

Imma go waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out on a limb and assume you're single, no?

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 09:58 PM
Why are you guys assuming prostitutes don't want to be prostitutes? The reason why it's seen as a poor person's profession is because it's illegal. Poor people are more willing to take social and legal risks for money, since money is harder to come by. Sex is also relatively easy work, much like digging a ditch or milking a cow. There is also huge demand for it. Seeing prostitutes as victims is largely a myth perpetrated by those who want control over a woman's sexuality. That's not to say that some prostitutes are not victims, it's just that the work is not inherently victimizing, just like working in a shoe factory is not inherently victimizing.

Faleldir
2009-05-16, 10:18 PM
If you want to discourage the trips to the brothel, there's always the old standby.

"You're having a great time until you discover her penis."

That might not work if he has Trapfinding... But if he doesn't, then by all means, send him to the Tomb Of Whores!
Yes, I only posted to make a terrible pun.

Stormthorn
2009-05-16, 11:32 PM
For that, I need to introduce a concept I've been eyeing for a while. Disguise is a Dread Necro class skill. Cha is their casting stat. Figuring 10th level, you're looking at +22 disguise before rolling or any optimization. A high level DN has an insanely high number of undead controlled. Zombies still have the flesh. No one will notice if the girl doesn't talk much.

This forum needs a devil smiley.

A: You have read the shortstory Meathouse Man

B: OR, you really need too.

elliott20
2009-05-16, 11:33 PM
Why are you guys assuming prostitutes don't want to be prostitutes? The reason why it's seen as a poor person's profession is because it's illegal. Poor people are more willing to take social and legal risks for money, since money is harder to come by. Sex is also relatively easy work, much like digging a ditch or milking a cow. There is also huge demand for it. Seeing prostitutes as victims is largely a myth perpetrated by those who want control over a woman's sexuality. That's not to say that some prostitutes are not victims, it's just that the work is not inherently victimizing, just like working in a shoe factory is not inherently victimizing.
It's all about the context here. the inherent act of selling sex for money? no, probably not. But most of us are functioning under the premise that we would be gaming in a society not too far off from our own in terms of social values and social context. (however erroneous that assumption might be) In which case, sex workers are generally very poorly protected, and even more poorly perceived. The precise reasoning for these deserves it's own topic but this post is already dangerously close to political speech as is, so I'm going to back off now.

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 11:55 PM
It's all about the context here. the inherent act of selling sex for money? no, probably not. But most of us are functioning under the premise that we would be gaming in a society not too far off from our own in terms of social values and social context. (however erroneous that assumption might be) In which case, sex workers are generally very poorly protected, and even more poorly perceived. The precise reasoning for these deserves it's own topic but this post is already dangerously close to political speech as is, so I'm going to back off now.

I imagine the Deity of Sex (more like a whole pantheon) would be enormously powerful in any human kingdoms. They would likely rival major deities in power.

elliott20
2009-05-17, 12:16 AM
well, like I said, it's context. If sex within your setting is not necessarily seen as a sin like it has been drummed into our social subconsciousness in our own society, and that sex is merely seen as an act that is akin to a sport, or even a part of humanity with no negative moral value attached to it, then yes, in such a setting, a sex worker could be something that is not necessarily negative.

The pantheon or deity of sex, however, depending upon the social attitudes towards it, could make it into either a pantheon of decadence or a pantheon of ascetics reached through sexual enlightenment.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 12:21 AM
I imagine the Deity of Sex (more like a whole pantheon) would be enormously powerful in any human kingdoms. They would likely rival major deities in power.

For some reason that's starting an idea turning in my head. I don't think any individual deity in a sexually-oriented pantheon would be too powerful, especially if there was one deity for every individual kink out there. Sex is only one aspect of life, and while it's one of the most pleasurable, to be sure, it's not something I think many people would want to devote their lives to. After all, if you do something fun too many times it does get boring.

I'm a virgin though, so that may color my opinion summat.

Dhavaer
2009-05-17, 12:30 AM
I imagine the Deity of Sex (more like a whole pantheon) would be enormously powerful in any human kingdoms. They would likely rival major deities in power.

I'd guess it'd be set up like the dragon gods; you'd have one major deity who's just the god of sex, and then you'd have a bunch of lesser deities who are gods of parenthood, prostitution, seduction, BDSM, probably a Chaotic or Neutral Evil rape god, and so on and so forth. Most of them apart from the god of rape would likely be neutral, I'd imagine.

Narmoth
2009-05-17, 02:56 AM
What a restrictive DM. I'd knock her out with non-lethal damage and then help her return to her senses. If that fails, and every other reasonable option too, then the second of those DM-given options is chaotic, but not good, and paladins specifically don't fall for commiting a chaotic act, only for shifting away from lawful.

There's this funny spell called atonement. And there's rules for talking a character or NPC (back) into good alignment (BoED).
Sane course of action would be to use diplomacy to make her step down from her position as warlord, change her alignment back, and have her attone

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-17, 04:28 AM
In which case, sex workers are generally very poorly protected, and even more poorly perceived.

Neither of which means some people don't want to do it. The poor perception is the reason it's illegal, and the illegality is the reason they're poorly protected - they can't go to the police if they're raped, some have to rely on pimps for "protection" (mostly from the pimp), and so on.

If you want to find out about women who choose to do the work, here's a link (http://www.texasgoldengirl.com/afterhours/). And another one (http://deepthroated.wordpress.com/). Just start following links to find more.

In many areas and in many cases, sex workers are victims of human trafficking, and that is horrible - but it's also a separate issue. Does it matter why humans are being trafficked? It's still a crime all by itself. When a woman (or a man) chooses, of their own free will (insofar as anyone can; economic coercion, i.e. "either you make money or you starve", exists for everyone), to do sex work, and are not the victims of pimping (pimping is illegal in Finland; selling and buying sex is legal, so long as it isn't done in full public view, and sex workers are expected to report and pay taxes on their income).

So yeah - there's several issues, largely of women's rights, at play. Human trafficking and pimping are awful things, and need to be stopped; and people need to be free to do what they want for their bodies. (The hypocricy of allowing people to get paid for having sex on film, but not off-camera, is mind-boggling.)


These factors could all exist independently of each other in a D&D setting. In Faerūn, for instance, women have considerable reproductive rights - a herb that's essentially "the pill" is right there in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. They're also indicated to have legal, political, and social rights equal to men. This all suggests, in the first place, that women are relatively free to do what they want with their bodies; and in the second place, that there would probably be a larger proportion of male sex workers than in the real world. Absent some religious factors, nobody seems likely to look down on sex workers (I can't really think of any; there's no sex-negative deity in Faerūn that I can think of, just a few specifically sex-positive ones, like Sune, and others that can be inferred, like Mystra, Eilistraee, or Lathander).

But there could still be slave trade leading to prostitution - probably in Waterdeep, Luskan, Amn, the Moonsea, Sembia... and there are apparently some realms where women's position is not very strong (Calimshan, I think? I'm not sure).


I imagine the Deity of Sex (more like a whole pantheon) would be enormously powerful in any human kingdoms. They would likely rival major deities in power.

Seems pretty probable to me, too - although I could see sex simply being covered under other stuff. In Faerūn, it's clearly Sune and probably Lathander and Eilistraee. (The elves and dwarves have their own hearth-and-family deities who I can't name just now who probably cover it; the elven ones are naturally more sensuous and carefree, and the dwarven ones are naturally more stodgy...)


There's this funny spell called atonement. And there's rules for talking a character or NPC (back) into good alignment (BoED).
Sane course of action would be to use diplomacy to make her step down from her position as warlord, change her alignment back, and have her attone

Yes. The DM turned what could have been a pretty awesome adventure arc ("I must save and atone my vengeance-obsessed beloved!") into a "screw you, paladin!" Heck, he could even have worked it out with Swordguy so he knows he loses his powers to start with, and has to atone his significant other without them (it's a good trope; the hero/heroine must succeed without his/her powers), after which he'll himself be atoned.

Oslecamo
2009-05-17, 09:19 AM
The pantheon or deity of sex, however, depending upon the social attitudes towards it, could make it into either a pantheon of decadence or a pantheon of ascetics reached through sexual enlightenment.

Neither.

Latai is the goddess of pleasure, love and passion and her clerics teach people how to do sex (and other "carnal" enjoyments) whitout it becoming a vice or anyone geting hurt on the process. Eat whitout fatening, pleasuring your partner while pleasuring yourself, and don't forget your real life duties.

Mike_G
2009-05-17, 09:31 AM
Sex is only one aspect of life, and while it's one of the most pleasurable, to be sure, it's not something I think many people would want to devote their lives to.


I'm gonna disagree on that one.




After all, if you do something fun too many times it does get boring.


First, there is no such thing as "too many times."

Second, if it gets boring, then you're doing it wrong.

If it got boring over time, I don't think we'd be selling so much Viagra to the elderly.

In twenty some years of being sexually active, and a dozen years of monogamous marriage, I've yet to find it "boring."

When it's good it's very good, and when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

ChaosDefender24
2009-05-17, 09:57 AM
The pantheon or deity of sex, however, depending upon the social attitudes towards it, could make it into either a pantheon of decadence or a pantheon of ascetics reached through sexual enlightenment.

I swear there's a goddess of necrophilia ("love beyond death") in Libris Mortis. A necromantic brothel would be too risky, if the necromancer were found out, nobody would go to his brothel. Dead girls can't say no, nor do they charge anything.

Narmoth
2009-05-17, 10:23 AM
You're thinking of Evening Glory, the goddess of undying love.
Still, I doubt necrophilia is the term when it comes to sentient undead.

imp_fireball
2009-05-17, 05:57 PM
I disagree entirely. To start with, in my opinion, a nymph would almost never have sex with anyone but a CN/NG druid that she had known for ages. They're not succubi, you know. Same goes for dryads.

I don't think you can get STDs from dryads. It just...doesn't fit. Splinters in unpleasant places maybe.

Also, what nerds are we. "Can you get STDs from nymphs?" What losers.

Um yah, well assuming a setting has at least a scientific backdrop, then yah you can darn well get fuggin' STDs from creatures that aren't human. Why would humans get the short end of everything?



Still, I doubt necrophilia is the term when it comes to sentient undead.


It's funny how you can argue about terminology used in real life when arguing about it in a fantasy setting can easily be done between philosophical/academist characters in-game. It's obvious some things are undefined for a reason. It's the middle ages after all.

Colmarr
2009-05-17, 06:42 PM
A: You have read the shortstory Meathouse Man

I have to say that Meathouse Man is the most emotionally disturbing short stories I've ever read. I love GGRM's work, but that one? Uggh, *shudders*.


I swear there's a goddess of necrophilia ("love beyond death") in Libris Mortis. A necromantic brothel would be too risky, if the necromancer were found out, nobody would go to his brothel. Dead girls can't say no, nor do they charge anything.

That post is even more disturbing because of the leering avatar on the left :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-17, 06:45 PM
Um yah, well assuming a setting has at least a scientific backdrop, then yah you can darn well get fuggin' STDs from creatures that aren't human. Why would humans get the short end of everything?

Because humans contract human diseases and nymphs, being an entirely different species that only happens to resemble humans, contract nymph diseases?

You wouldn't catch an STD off of any other animal, even if it had an STD. You're human. Diseases don't tend to cross species barriers.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 07:31 PM
I'm gonna disagree on that one.

First, there is no such thing as "too many times."

Second, if it gets boring, then you're doing it wrong.

If it got boring over time, I don't think we'd be selling so much Viagra to the elderly.

In twenty some years of being sexually active, and a dozen years of monogamous marriage, I've yet to find it "boring."

When it's good it's very good, and when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

Again, I only know from what I've read or heard. I'm a virgin, so I don't know how good its supposed to feel. All I know is that sometimes masturbation feels like a chore. Like there's no excitement in it, even with an alluring woman on the screen in front of me.

And I likely won't ever know either, since I don't plan on doing it unless I get married, which I will not do because I am emotionally immature, and I am not very responsible, ergo I would make the lousiest of lousy husbands.

Mike_G
2009-05-18, 12:40 AM
Again, I only know from what I've read or heard. I'm a virgin, so I don't know how good its supposed to feel. All I know is that sometimes masturbation feels like a chore. Like there's no excitement in it, even with an alluring woman on the screen in front of me..

Comparing sex to masurbation is like comparing playing Call of Duty to actual combat. It's not apples to apples. It's not even apples to Apple Jacks cereal.

If the alluring woman is in the room versus on a screen, you may notice an enhanced experience.




And I likely won't ever know either, since I don't plan on doing it unless I get married, which I will not do because I am emotionally immature, and I am not very responsible, ergo I would make the lousiest of lousy husbands.

Probably way off topic here, but beating yourself up certainly isn't going to help. If you are aware of your immaturity, that's the first step to overcoming it. Take the next.

Colmarr
2009-05-18, 12:55 AM
If the alluring woman is in the room versus on a screen, you may notice an enhanced experience.

How is it that this can sound like the warning on rear-view mirrors, and yet be SO much funnier at the same time? :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-18, 02:44 AM
So, I stop by to see what this thread is talking about now and what I get is this: :smalleek:

...carry on.

Blackfang108
2009-05-18, 09:28 AM
Comparing sex to masurbation is like comparing playing Call of Duty to actual combat. It's not apples to apples. It's not even apples to Apple Jacks cereal.

If the alluring woman is in the room versus on a screen, you may notice an enhanced experience.

Probably way off topic here, but beating yourself up certainly isn't going to help. If you are aware of your immaturity, that's the first step to overcoming it. Take the next.

I have to agree with Mike G, here. It really DOES make a difference.

Remember, with Rosy Palm, you're the one doing all the work.

Radar
2009-05-18, 10:33 AM
Because humans contract human diseases and nymphs, being an entirely different species that only happens to resemble humans, contract nymph diseases?

You wouldn't catch an STD off of any other animal, even if it had an STD. You're human. Diseases don't tend to cross species barriers.
I beg to differ. Many diseases (ST or not) can and do cross species barriers: rabies (obvious), smallpox (transmitted by rats), malaria (transmitted by mosquitos), some types of flu, most probably HIV (it's supposed origin). The list is most probably much longer. The disease might sometimes not affect more then one species, but can be transmitted by other without problems and ST is only one way of spreading the disease.

LibraryOgre
2009-05-18, 02:54 PM
Y'all ever read Ed Greenwood's treatment of the Realms? Where most courts are more or less non-stop orgies, at least behind the scenes? I don't think that's too far off the mark when you consider a couple facts.

1) There is an actual deity of sex and love... in fact, there are two (Sune and Sharess). This doesn't include the Goddess of Joy or the God of Renewal or the regional deity of fertility up in the North (Shialla, but the spelling may be off). For them, sex isn't a forbidden thing... good sex between willing people is a sacrament.

2) Magic. In Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame, a lot of upper-class folks "visit the Spider" (a sect of clerics) every few months; not just for health reasons, but to avoid causing the most common sexually transmitted disease: children. Magic can create 100% effective birth control, meaning the parentage of children (in patrilineal societies) can be assured, or, using divinations, determined. I imagine that many clerics in D&D world offer these sorts of services, but that the spells aren't outlined because of squeamishness.

In the words of the great Chuck Berry, "Sex is a beautiful thing. It is honorable and it is lovable." A society of humans that has the technology (and for this purpose, magic is a technology) to have a lot of sex, and a culture that encourages it, is going to have a lot of sex.

Faleldir
2009-05-18, 03:18 PM
Magic can create 100% effective birth control
Is there a specific spell that does that? I heard that explanation before, but I don't know how it works.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-18, 03:31 PM
Is there a specific spell that does that? I heard that explanation before, but I don't know how it works.BoEF, Block the Seed, 1st level Sorc/Wiz, Abj, hour/level.

shadzar
2009-05-18, 04:00 PM
In the words of the great Chuck Berry, "Sex is a beautiful thing. It is honorable and it is lovable."

Yeah and the girls have a beautiful passage.
:smalleek: In the song. IN THE SONG!

The thing is the game is what you make of it and it you don't want the Lady of Pain as a dominatrix goddess in your game, then you don't use her as such.

You don't have to have a game full of debauchery.

Dhavaer
2009-05-18, 04:04 PM
BoEF, Block the Seed, 1st level Sorc/Wiz, Abj, hour/level.

Also available as a cantrip in the Netbook of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, called simply 'Contraception'.

LibraryOgre
2009-05-18, 04:22 PM
Is there a specific spell that does that? I heard that explanation before, but I don't know how it works.

D&D (at its core) doesn't directly address these kinds of magic. If the BoEF reference is correct, I'd probably make it a 2nd level spell, with a duration in months; it's a relatively simple effect, so a very long duration isn't horrid. However, I liked the Cantrip proficiency from Dragon Magazine, so I tend to have a bit more casual use of minor magics.

ondonaflash
2009-05-18, 05:09 PM
Note: Don't use a Forum as your go-to guide for sex education, it could lead to some... complications.

Fore the most part though, yeah, Sex>Masturbation.

Myrmex
2009-05-19, 01:36 AM
For some reason that's starting an idea turning in my head. I don't think any individual deity in a sexually-oriented pantheon would be too powerful, especially if there was one deity for every individual kink out there. Sex is only one aspect of life, and while it's one of the most pleasurable, to be sure, it's not something I think many people would want to devote their lives to. After all, if you do something fun too many times it does get boring.

I'm a virgin though, so that may color my opinion summat.

You ever play Metal Gear Solid for the PS1?
Psycho Mantis goes crazy [spolier ahead], in part, because he can read everyone's minds, and all anyone thinks about is sex.
I think for most mortal creatures, sex is pretty much the ultimate reason we do anything. As an organism, the only point to all out experience, if there is one, is so that we leave more copies of ourselves. Procreation has to be the strongest mortal drive in the multiverse.

The best protip I ever got about sex was this:
"Sex is a lot like air; it's only a big deal if you're not getting any."

If you think about it a little, there are a lot of ramifications (I think, anyway), and it isn't as vacuous as it first seems.


Neither of which means some people don't want to do it. The poor perception is the reason it's illegal, and the illegality is the reason they're poorly protected - they can't go to the police if they're raped, some have to rely on pimps for "protection" (mostly from the pimp), and so on.

If you want to find out about women who choose to do the work, here's a link (http://www.texasgoldengirl.com/afterhours/). And another one (http://deepthroated.wordpress.com/). Just start following links to find more.

In many areas and in many cases, sex workers are victims of human trafficking, and that is horrible - but it's also a separate issue. Does it matter why humans are being trafficked? It's still a crime all by itself. When a woman (or a man) chooses, of their own free will (insofar as anyone can; economic coercion, i.e. "either you make money or you starve", exists for everyone), to do sex work, and are not the victims of pimping (pimping is illegal in Finland; selling and buying sex is legal, so long as it isn't done in full public view, and sex workers are expected to report and pay taxes on their income).

So yeah - there's several issues, largely of women's rights, at play. Human trafficking and pimping are awful things, and need to be stopped; and people need to be free to do what they want for their bodies. (The hypocricy of allowing people to get paid for having sex on film, but not off-camera, is mind-boggling.)


These factors could all exist independently of each other in a D&D setting. In Faerūn, for instance, women have considerable reproductive rights - a herb that's essentially "the pill" is right there in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. They're also indicated to have legal, political, and social rights equal to men. This all suggests, in the first place, that women are relatively free to do what they want with their bodies; and in the second place, that there would probably be a larger proportion of male sex workers than in the real world. Absent some religious factors, nobody seems likely to look down on sex workers (I can't really think of any; there's no sex-negative deity in Faerūn that I can think of, just a few specifically sex-positive ones, like Sune, and others that can be inferred, like Mystra, Eilistraee, or Lathander).

But there could still be slave trade leading to prostitution - probably in Waterdeep, Luskan, Amn, the Moonsea, Sembia... and there are apparently some realms where women's position is not very strong (Calimshan, I think? I'm not sure).

Well said!


Seems pretty probable to me, too - although I could see sex simply being covered under other stuff. In Faerūn, it's clearly Sune and probably Lathander and Eilistraee. (The elves and dwarves have their own hearth-and-family deities who I can't name just now who probably cover it; the elven ones are naturally more sensuous and carefree, and the dwarven ones are naturally more stodgy...)

I think Sune is obviously the deity of sex. If Faerun was to have more "mature content", she'd be uh, bigger news, I think.

DrizztFan24
2009-05-19, 09:06 AM
Back to the topic in the OP (note: I have not read all 4 pages, just the last one), I suggest giving them syphilis. The spyroketes eat away neurons in the brain, thus causing issues for all people involved. This can affect the wizard, lose spell slots AND INT. The bard, charisma? not without the neurologic pathways. The rogue, INT obviously and DEX is fine motor control, in the brain. The fighter might get the best deal with just dexterity loss. Divine caster, Wisdom is generally considered reasoning is it not? That is a concious neurologic function.

EDIT: Also, the damage in permanent because the actual brain tissue is being destroyed.

Mike_G
2009-05-19, 12:12 PM
Back to the topic in the OP (note: I have not read all 4 pages, just the last one), I suggest giving them syphilis. The spyroketes eat away neurons in the brain, thus causing issues for all people involved. This can affect the wizard, lose spell slots AND INT. The bard, charisma? not without the neurologic pathways. The rogue, INT obviously and DEX is fine motor control, in the brain. The fighter might get the best deal with just dexterity loss. Divine caster, Wisdom is generally considered reasoning is it not? That is a concious neurologic function.

EDIT: Also, the damage in permanent because the actual brain tissue is being destroyed.

Way to make a fun game.

Generally, I disapprove of killing a mosquito with a cannon like that.

If the issue is the DM is uncomfortable, that's an out of character issue, and should not be resolved with in character punishment. Just say "She rocks your world and empties your purse. You want more details than that, you need to buy me a drink."

In character punishment isn't justified, since, in character, there's no reason for them not to want to go to the brothel. Soldiers, sailors and other people in traditionally dangerous traveling professions commonly frequented such establishments, and adventurers fall into that category nicely.

Plus, with curative magic availible, and PCs able to afford the high end brothels, I'd think ti wouldn't be too hard to find clean prostitutes. I assume we're not talking about the $20 quick service in a dark alley by the crack addicted she-male with infected needle tracks.

Even today, the wealthy can afford very attractive and clean escorts, and the legal brothels in Nevada are very safe.

But you don't get to check out the infected needle tracks, and it'll probably run you more than the $20 or dose of heroin.


Prostitution can, and often is, nasty, dirty and abusive. Most of those issues are created, or at least made worse by the fact that it's often illegal, which drives it underground and prevents regulation and inspection and allows the abuse to flourish. If it were legal, and required licenses with health screenings, disease, human trafficking and abuse would be stamped out in the legal brothels, and the illegal, nasty crack whore in a back alley stuff would dry up as legal, safe ways for a guy to get the needed relief became availible.

As prohibition taught us, when there's an appetite, someone will supply the goods. Making it illegal just means a nastier, riskier product.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-19, 01:07 PM
Way to make a fun game.

Generally, I disapprove of killing a mosquito with a cannon like that.

It wouldn't fix anything to begin with. A more accurate analogy would be chopping up a mosquito with a meat cleaver, and suddenly both mosquito halves spawn another hundred mosquitoes each and you're even more annoyed for having fed the griefer.

But yes, it seems ridiculous that mundane STDs would be worse than the diseases already on the books, unless you're going for some kind of D&D HIV.


If the issue is the DM is uncomfortable, that's an out of character issue, and should not be resolved with in character punishment. Just say "She rocks your world and empties your purse. You want more details than that, you need to buy me a drink."

In character punishment isn't justified, since, in character, there's no reason for them not to want to go to the brothel. Soldiers, sailors and other people in traditionally dangerous traveling professions commonly frequented such establishments, and adventurers fall into that category nicely.

Yes, yes, yes!

Not only would in-character responses not fix anything, they would be unfair. The issue isn't an in-character one at all - the PC is quite free to visit brothels, but the player needs to respect the other people at the table. Only spiteful and immature GMs punish characters when they don't like what the players do.

Jayabalard
2009-05-19, 01:38 PM
I beg to differ. Many diseases (ST or not) can and do cross species barriers: rabies (obvious), smallpox (transmitted by rats), malaria (transmitted by mosquitos), some types of flu, most probably HIV (it's supposed origin).Malaria as you list is isn't an example of a disease crossing species barriers... it doesn't affect the mosquito.

Beyond that, the vast majority of diseases (especially STDs) don't cross species barriers.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-19, 01:43 PM
Malaria as you list is isn't an example of a disease crossing species barriers... it doesn't affect the mosquito.

Beyond that, the vast majority of diseases (especially STDs) don't cross species barriers.
I don't even want to know how scientists know this.:smalleek:

Connor Darkdart
2009-05-19, 02:23 PM
I have one word for OP.

Pregnancy

Radar
2009-05-19, 03:13 PM
Malaria as you list is isn't an example of a disease crossing species barriers... it doesn't affect the mosquito.

Beyond that, the vast majority of diseases (especially STDs) don't cross species barriers.
Yet, you can be infected by a mosquito. For the recipient it only matters, that he can get ill. So a hypotetical nymph can contract a human STD on an adventurer and not be affected by it herself - doesn't change a thing in the end (maybe makes it more dangerous even). Besides if there can be half-almost-anything beings that can reproduce, then a lot of D&D species are very similar biologically (technically are one species even), so crossing species borders is not even a point.

Colmarr
2009-05-19, 06:44 PM
Beyond that, the vast majority of diseases (especially STDs) don't cross species barriers.

And yet Swine Flu and SARS are prime examples, so obviously it's possible.

Or are you drawing a distinction between diseases and viruses?

Michaelos
2009-05-19, 07:29 PM
Some different solutions I thought of to the problem of "My PC's want to visit brothels."

Game Mechanic Solution: Have Brothel's be a shop where you can buy exp for Gold. Your characters obviously want to have sex a lot, so they should be rewarded for finally getting it. Just invent some metric like 1 GP=CR 1, 2GP=CR 2, 4GP=CR 3, 8GP=CR 4 (Note: your metric may depend on your campaign, I made up that one and it probably isn't balanced). If it seems to easy, have them make a Perform (Sexual Techniques) roll to get the EXP. After all, if you are spending a million GP on an epic orgy, you'll need a lot of skill not to just embarass yourself.

Curse Solution: Set up a situation where the characters are offered a choice between a set of people (arrange to have the count have one who doesn't get picked.) Whichever is spurned is an epic caster who casts an epic curse on the character with no apparent affect. Every time the character starts getting it on with someone and you don't feel like describing it, the curse comes into play and a monster appears and starts attacking.

My character had sex with WHO?: Have the character be strongly propositioned by someone inside the brothel. The character then turns out to be a caster who later attacks the party.

Lords hate Whores: Whoops - A new law from Person on high bans all brothels and all of the whores are being arrested. It's up to your PCs to put this evil aristocrat out of business and free the whores from their imprisonment.

The Gender's all wrong: See, the PC's are in an area where they are the submissive sex. So... all the people in those brothels? They're the same sex as the PCs.

Feel free to steal any of them and modify them to your campaign.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-19, 07:55 PM
Game Mechanic Solution: Have Brothel's be a shop where you can buy exp for Gold. Your characters obviously want to have sex a lot, so they should be rewarded for finally getting it. Just invent some metric like 1 GP=CR 1, 2GP=CR 2, 4GP=CR 3, 8GP=CR 4 (Note: your metric may depend on your campaign, I made up that one and it probably isn't balanced). If it seems to easy, have them make a Perform (Sexual Techniques) roll to get the EXP. After all, if you are spending a million GP on an epic orgy, you'll need a lot of skill not to just embarass yourself.


And encouraging the behaviour that causes the problem fixes it how, exactly? As for the other solutions:

Also, once again I'd like to stress that restricting player access to brothels or making them suffer for it are very, very bad ideas. The former makes them pissed and/or want revenge, which is not healthy for the game and can only further delay it, the former will only make them seek brothels they actually can access even harder - and when they eventually find one, they will still demand descriptions.

So yeah. I know most of these ideas are jokes, but they're still very bad advice if taken seriously.

Michaelos
2009-05-19, 08:13 PM
And encouraging the behaviour that causes the problem fixes it how, exactly? As for the other solutions:

What problem? Just have it be an GP to EXP chart. If you want, add the names to have silly descriptions like so:
5 GP: 1 EXP: Fun with a Barrel, Grapes, and a Book.
50 GP: 10 EXP: Fun with Cucumbers, Rye Bread, and Silk.
500 GP: 100 EXP: Fun with Watermelons, Palm Trees, and Charm Person.
5000 GP: 1000 EXP: Fun with Alter Self, Charm Monster, and Alchemical Items.
Etc:

PC: I go to a Brothel.
DM: Okay, how much money do you want to spend on Whoring?
PC: Large amount of GP.
DM: Okay, you get large amount/5 of EXP.
PC: How did I get that much EXP?
DM: It involved 3 prostitutes and a Beer Mug with Bananas in it.
PC: Beer Mug with Bananas? How the heck did that work?
DM: It didn't. You started off with (Rolls dice) 5 prostitutes and a Banana Farmer.

If the PC keeps asking for more details, than say the character had such a good time with the Beer Mug they don't remember the specifics. Basically, play it for laughs with Noodle Implements (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleImplements)

As for the other point, I wasn't saying use it all the time, but this is D&D. sometimes the brothel really is a front for a Paragon Succubi who has charmed Nymphs. It would be weird to have every anything always be boring.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-19, 08:17 PM
As others have mentioned the only solution is a simple, good ol' fashioned, DM, "No."
None of this passive aggressive, "you visit a brothel, aaand. . .your penis drops off. Take 5 charisma drain, and a 2 permanent boost to wisdom."

Just. Say. No.
If it makes you uncomfortable, be honest and tell your players that.
Unless they are complete *****, they will understand.

Philistine
2009-05-20, 02:32 AM
What problem? Just have it be an GP to EXP chart. If you want, add the names to have silly descriptions like so:
5 GP: 1 EXP: Fun with a Barrel, Grapes, and a Book.
50 GP: 10 EXP: Fun with Cucumbers, Rye Bread, and Silk.
500 GP: 100 EXP: Fun with Watermelons, Palm Trees, and Charm Person.
5000 GP: 1000 EXP: Fun with Alter Self, Charm Monster, and Alchemical Items.
Etc:

PC: I go to a Brothel.
DM: Okay, how much money do you want to spend on Whoring?
PC: Large amount of GP.
DM: Okay, you get large amount/5 of EXP.
PC: How did I get that much EXP?
DM: It involved 3 prostitutes and a Beer Mug with Bananas in it.
PC: Beer Mug with Bananas? How the heck did that work?
DM: It didn't. You started off with (Rolls dice) 5 prostitutes and a Banana Farmer.

If the PC keeps asking for more details, than say the character had such a good time with the Beer Mug they don't remember the specifics. Basically, play it for laughs with Noodle Implements (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleImplements)

As for the other point, I wasn't saying use it all the time, but this is D&D. sometimes the brothel really is a front for a Paragon Succubi who has charmed Nymphs. It would be weird to have every anything always be boring.
What problem?, you ask? How about the problem from the OP, which the entire thread has been about: The DM is uncomfortable with his players' eagerness for salacious details of their brothel expeditions, and wishes they would stop asking about it. Rewarding the players with both extra description and XP is hardly the way to discourage their behavior.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-20, 06:13 AM
And yet Swine Flu and SARS are prime examples, so obviously it's possible.

Or are you drawing a distinction between diseases and viruses?

WHO is shaking its head already, but it's worth pointing out swine don't get swine flu.

Diseases mutating is not the same as cross-species transmission.


What problem?

The problem the OP had? Your solution only encourages the problem player.

Michaelos
2009-05-20, 06:18 AM
What problem?, you ask? How about the problem from the OP, which the entire thread has been about: The DM is uncomfortable with his players' eagerness for salacious details of their brothel expeditions, and wishes they would stop asking about it. Rewarding the players with both extra description and XP is hardly the way to discourage their behavior.

My point is that you can give descriptions of a brothel that aren't salacious. You can either give a "And you gain 100 EXP" description, or you can give a pear, cream, and disguise self were used. answer, and neither of those are likely to make you uncomfortable. If your PC's are specifically craving salacious details and ONLY salacious details and not just brothel details, than yes that could be a problem, but I was going based on this:

"I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out. I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird."

"How it was" does not require salacious details, it can be answered with a silly answer, and EXP chart, or noodle implements, which would probably not make most DMs upset.

Narmoth
2009-05-20, 07:27 AM
Malaria as you list is isn't an example of a disease crossing species barriers... it doesn't affect the mosquito.

Beyond that, the vast majority of diseases (especially STDs) don't cross species barriers.

AIDS is a disease also found on apes wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS#HIV-1_spread_from_chimpanzees)

Also: xp for brothel visits? Really? Where did the monster slaying go?

Philistine
2009-05-20, 08:16 AM
My point is that you can give descriptions of a brothel that aren't salacious. You can either give a "And you gain 100 EXP" description, or you can give a pear, cream, and disguise self were used. answer, and neither of those are likely to make you uncomfortable. If your PC's are specifically craving salacious details and ONLY salacious details and not just brothel details, than yes that could be a problem, but I was going based on this:

"I don't mind them mentioning it from time to time, but when they started to haggle with me and asked me how it was, I got a little creeped out. I don't want to tell them to stop doing this, but somehow I feel this might be disrupting the flow of the game for a bit. And it just feels... weird."

"How it was" does not require salacious details, it can be answered with a silly answer, and EXP chart, or noodle implements, which would probably not make most DMs upset.

But he really is asking for ways to STOP them asking "how it was." So please explain how rewarding players for exhibiting the exact behavior he wants to discourage will accomplish the stated goal of persuading them to cease.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-20, 09:01 AM
Sex and XP:

Neverwinter Nights actually does this, where you get 5 XP for your first time with a prostitute in the brothel. There is only one male prostitute, two female prostitutes and no homosexuality.

Therefore, males are clearly ahead.

It is so strange that it actually became an in-joke in my high school for a while.

Gods, why did this thread turn so awkward?

...I really had nothing else to had. Just say no and remind them that "no" does not mean "I need more incentive", it means "no". If you're the only GM locally available, you might also show them to the door (which is what I often did).

shadzar
2009-05-20, 09:30 AM
Prostitution is an immoral and illegal act and all such places are to be burnt to the ground and anyone caught taking part in the act is to be put to death.

There use that for the game and it should solve the problem....maybe.

Mystral
2009-05-20, 12:21 PM
You guys, stop discussing "my problem" :smallwink:

I had a perfectly normal and fun session last sunday (sent some kythons on them, so they had no time for brothels anyway) and I think I can handle this. All your advice is really nice, but I have already made up my mind how to deal with the situation. I'll have some fun messing with them (just a little, a DM has to have fun, too), then I'll tell them up front.

Also: No Xp for Gp.

shadzar
2009-05-20, 12:42 PM
You guys, stop discussing "my problem" :smallwink:


:smallconfused: Who are you?


:smalltongue:

Mystral
2009-05-20, 01:18 PM
:smalleek:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 01:19 PM
You guys, stop discussing "my problem" :smallwink:I am suddenly reminded of the 'Snuggles equation'.

shadzar
2009-05-20, 01:44 PM
:smalleek:

:smallbiggrin: I was kidding. I know you started the thread, but it had grown so much that newcomers might not remember or have read the first post. You know how forum threads can take on a life of their own. :smallwink:

Thurbane
2009-05-21, 12:14 AM
Back in the day (1E), it was pretty standard in our group to gain XP from a brothel visit. In hindsight, I guess it was pretty juvenile...

Coidzor
2009-05-21, 01:16 AM
I am suddenly reminded of the 'Snuggles equation'.

Snuggles Equation? How horrifying is the answer on a scale from one to ten?

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-21, 01:23 AM
I dunno; I've tried Googling it, and "Snuggles Equation" turns up exactly one result, and that's this very page.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 01:32 AM
Snuggles Equation? How horrifying is the answer on a scale from one to ten?The Snuggles Thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068) The equation(and it may not have been called that) was stated by another forum member as "The length of a thread bears no relationship to the participation of the OP, but the on-topicness is directly proportional to the amount of presence of the OP."(paraphrased).

In other words, all Mystral can do is leave and hope this turns into a Monk debate or something. I will admit, Monks make good prostitutes.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-21, 01:40 AM
Ah, yes, I remember that thread now... good times, goooood times... :smallbiggrin:

SilverSheriff
2009-05-21, 01:50 AM
Prostitution is an immoral and illegal act and all such places are to be burnt to the ground and anyone caught taking part in the act is to be put to death.

There use that for the game and it should solve the problem....maybe.

Religious Extremist much?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 01:54 AM
Religious Extremist much?I don't think those are his views, I think that was him saying that if you make that the situation in the campaign wold, the players won't be able to go to brothels. Which is wrong, the PCs will just start a business, and use the leverage of 'we are the only force opposing X' to keep it open.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-21, 04:37 AM
Back in the day (1E), it was pretty standard in our group to gain XP from a brothel visit. In hindsight, I guess it was pretty juvenile...

Three words:

Random. Whore. Table. (http://zdrake.blogspot.com/2007/08/random-harlot-generation-table-in-ad.html)

Narmoth
2009-05-21, 06:04 AM
Three words:

Random. Whore. Table. (http://zdrake.blogspot.com/2007/08/random-harlot-generation-table-in-ad.html)

Nice.
Isn't there such a table in BoEF as well?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-21, 07:35 AM
Nice.
Isn't there such a table in BoEF as well?

Not that I can recall or find. There's a list of sexual services (escort, streetwalker, brothel prostitute, mistress/master, masseuse) with prices, but that's about it.

Yes, the BoEF is actually more mature and tasteful. Definitely less degrading and misogynistic.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-21, 10:49 AM
Yes, the BoEF is actually more mature and tasteful. Definitely less degrading and misogynistic.

Considering it was written by a woman, that is to be expected.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 10:53 AM
Considering it was written by a woman, that is to be expected....
Are you trying to start a flamewar, or was that unintentionally offensive?

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 10:57 AM
...
Are you trying to start a flamewar, or was that unintentionally offensive?

I think that one was just you.

Theoretically, if a document in a neutral tone is written by a woman, it wouldn't be "woman-hating", right? I'm pretty sure that's all he was going for.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 11:00 AM
I think that one was just you.

Theoretically, if a document in a neutral tone is written by a woman, it wouldn't be "woman-hating", right? I'm pretty sure that's all he was going for.4 things were mentioned in the section quoted. One of them was misogyny(which isn't impossible for a woman), and the other 3 have no ties to gender.

The Tygre
2009-05-21, 05:00 PM
Would anyone here actually recommend -buying- the BoEF? I've already printed out the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but that only goes so far...

shadzar
2009-05-21, 05:14 PM
Would anyone here actually recommend -buying- the BoEF? I've already printed out the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but that only goes so far...

Depends on if you have kids in the house or where you play. I think there is a lot of full frontal nudity in it.

I didn't really read it after seeing that, so don't know what all else is in it.

I think it did have a section on fairies mating with other races or some such. :smalleek:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 05:23 PM
Would anyone here actually recommend -buying- the BoEF? I've already printed out the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but that only goes so far...I recommend any DM have access to it. I wouldn't recommend pulling it out at sessions, but a readthrough is IMHO pretty helpful with racial fluff and some obscure rulings.

And yes, there is a lot of full-frontal in it(male and female), so don't keep it where kids can find it.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 08:27 PM
I recommend any DM have access to it. I wouldn't recommend pulling it out at sessions, but a readthrough is IMHO pretty helpful with racial fluff and some obscure rulings.

And yes, there is a lot of full-frontal in it(male and female), so don't keep it where kids can find it.

Seconded. Except the last part - I've seen it 1) on the RPG shelf at Barnes & Nobles, 2) on the RPG shelf at Borders, 3) in the Health and Sexuality section at Waldenbooks. Also, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with children seeing nudity, except that it makes adults uncomfortable answering the kids' questions.

But, regardless, it's worth buying. Well-put-together, tastefully done, and an occasional useful mechanic. Certainly worth a look.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 11:29 PM
Also, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with children seeing nudity, except that it makes adults uncomfortable answering the kids' questions.Neither do I, but CPS seems to get all riled up, and the last thing we need is a news story saying "D&D obsessed pedophile uses the hobby to expose his kids to porn-full story at 11". :smallannoyed:

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 12:07 AM
Neither do I, but CPS seems to get all riled up, and the last thing we need is a news story saying "D&D obsessed pedophile uses the hobby to expose his kids to porn-full story at 11". :smallannoyed:

In other news, www.giantitp.com now appears on a federal watchlist. *facepalm*

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-22, 12:11 AM
In other news, www.giantitp.com now appears on a federal watchlist. *facepalm*What does it say that I checked to see if you were linking to a watchlist?

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 12:19 AM
What does it say that I checked to see if you were linking to a watchlist?

Ah, sorry, didn't mean it that way. Just going for the funny.

Clearly, the fail is mine. :smallredface:

The Tygre
2009-05-22, 12:40 AM
I'm suddenly reminded of an old Drew Carey Show quote...


"Well why can't you have the Cartoon Network AND the Porn Channel together?"
"Nah; I hear the FBI puts you on a special list for that."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-22, 12:50 AM
Ah, sorry, didn't mean it that way. Just going for the funny.

Clearly, the fail is mine. :smallredface:The fail is in the fact that the concept seemed reasonable at all, not in the fact that your sarcasm was dry.

Narmoth
2009-05-22, 01:12 AM
Would anyone here actually recommend -buying- the BoEF? I've already printed out the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but that only goes so far...

That really depends how sex-oriented your campaign is. Do you really need hooker-prestige classes and list of magial equipment not usable in combat?

Really, for the usual hack and slash and plot solving campaigns, you don't need it at all

Fortinbras
2009-05-22, 01:26 AM
I've always thought that the fluff sounded vaugly interesting, but then I would have to have it in my home, where vistors might see it.

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 01:32 AM
I've always thought that the fluff sounded vaugly interesting, but then I would have to have it in my home, where vistors might see it.

Interesting. Do you have your roleplaying books out where people might see them? How about any fantasy or sci-fi novels with risque cover art? Or those evil Harry Potter books? More to the point, are your visitors ones who would poke about your house looking for objectionable material? If they are, why do you let them in your house?!


Live your own life and the hell with what other people think - otherwise you'll be cowering in your own shadow. Look, I'm not saying buy it, or don't, but using other people's potential reactions as a cop-out is pretty weak.

I guess unless you're under 18. Remember, kids! Everything about sex is dirty and evil and wicked when you're 17 years and 364 days old, but once you're 18, it's a great and wonderful thing that'll be practically the center of your life for the next 20 years! (No worries, Roland. That's as far into THAT kettle of political fish as I'm going. :smallwink: )

Narmoth
2009-05-22, 02:19 AM
I've always thought that the fluff sounded vaugly interesting, but then I would have to have it in my home, where vistors might see it.

Nah, not really. I'm sure there are, ehm, other books on the subject that will describe medieval bed use more accurately

Satyr
2009-05-22, 05:33 AM
You know, the Book of Erotic Fantasy includes fewer pictures of nude people than the Sistine Chapel...

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-22, 05:54 AM
Would anyone here actually recommend -buying- the BoEF? I've already printed out the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but that only goes so far...

If you want to include sexual content in your game for anything expect cheap giggles, yes. It's a well-written third party book. Better than several WotC books (Savage Species, Complete Psionic...), that's for sure.


Nah, not really. I'm sure there are, ehm, other books on the subject that will describe medieval bed use more accurately

Yeah, but they're pretty sparse on details when it comes to two-axis alignment and faeries, elves, dragons, and the like.


You know, the Book of Erotic Fantasy includes fewer pictures of nude people than the Sistine Chapel...

The only thing embarrassing about the book's art is how cheesy it is (in a sort of warm, fuzzy, "aw, how cutely awkward" way).


In other news, www.giantitp.com now appears on a federal watchlist. *facepalm*

Thanks a lot, guys - over here in Europe the internet nazis will block it. :smallannoyed:

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-22, 06:02 AM
Thanks a lot, guys - over here in Europe the internet nazis will block it. :smallannoyed:

Hey, if my country didn't block it yet, you still have a long time before yours does.

Blackfang108
2009-05-22, 09:10 AM
The only thing embarrassing about the book's art is how cheesy it is (in a sort of warm, fuzzy, "aw, how cutely awkward" way).

And then some of it is just...

I don't have the words for this.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-22, 11:13 AM
Nah, not really. I'm sure there are, ehm, other books on the subject that will describe medieval bed use more accuratelyBut how many give you the rules on Save DC to resist Polymorphing while pregnant? Or a discription of the likely adolesence of a Half-Elf?

Narmoth
2009-05-22, 12:18 PM
But how many give you the rules on Save DC to resist Polymorphing while pregnant? Or a discription of the likely adolesence of a Half-Elf?

Okay, if save dc while pregnant comes up on a regular basis in your campaign, then yes.
But fluff alone?
It's not like I would guess hoe the likely adolescence of a Half-Elf would be from the age progression of the race and the other fluff of the given campaign

Fortinbras
2009-05-22, 12:50 PM
Interesting. Do you have your roleplaying books out where people might see them? How about any fantasy or sci-fi novels with risque cover art? Or those evil Harry Potter books? More to the point, are your visitors ones who would poke about your house looking for objectionable material? If they are, why do you let them in your house?!


Live your own life and the hell with what other people think - otherwise you'll be cowering in your own shadow. Look, I'm not saying buy it, or don't, but using other people's potential reactions as a cop-out is pretty weak.

I guess unless you're under 18. Remember, kids! Everything about sex is dirty and evil and wicked when you're 17 years and 364 days old, but once you're 18, it's a great and wonderful thing that'll be practically the center of your life for the next 20 years! (No worries, Roland. That's as far into THAT kettle of political fish as I'm going. :smallwink: )

Let's just say I would feel a little weird putting BOEF in a with my other roleplaying books but because it is a roleplaying book I'm not sure it belongs with erm other books. Yeah I'm in my mid teens