Why Haley owed the Thieves Guild money: Origin of PCs spoilers.

[hamishspence]

in Origin of PCs, Haley is told by Roy she can't join his party as thieving specialist without a guild membership.

Haley forges Guild membership card. Since she has only been a member of the Greysky Guild, is highly likely that it was their card she forged.

So, in that sense, since she couldn't have gotten the job without using their name, she really does owe them that money.

So, Haley has no right to be outraged at Celia- Celia only promised the Guild money that was already owing to them.

Sice Haley earned via legitimate adventuring, its not illegal earnings, so they can actually claim it- sue Haley for the use of their card to get her job.

[Silverraptor]

in Origin of PCs, Haley is told by Roy she can't join his party as thieving specialist without a guild membership.

Haley forges Guild membership card. Since she has only been a member of the Greysky Guild, is highly likely that it was their card she forged.

So, in that sense, since she couldn't have gotten the job without using their name, she really does owe them that money.

So, Haley has no right to be outraged at Celia- Celia only promised the Guild money that was already owing to them.

Sice Haley earned via legitimate adventuring, its not illegal earnings, so they can actually claim it- sue Haley for the use of their card to get her job.

Haley does have the right to be outraged, you have the right to feel any emotion. Although, your right, she does have to pay whether or not she likes it.

[Teddy]

in Origin of PCs, Haley is told by Roy she can't join his party as thieving specialist without a guild membership.

Haley forges Guild membership card. Since she has only been a member of the Greysky Guild, is highly likely that it was their card she forged.

So, in that sense, since she couldn't have gotten the job without using their name, she really does owe them that money.

So, Haley has no right to be outraged at Celia- Celia only promised the Guild money that was already owing to them.

Sice Haley earned via legitimate adventuring, its not illegal earnings, so they can actually claim it- sue Haley for the use of their card to get her job.

...and have their chest spontaneously transmuted into a pincusion for giant +1d6 cold damage magic needles.

Since Haley is chaotic, she wouldn't really care that much about a juridical desicion unless it was backed up by a overwhelming amount of sheer strength, a hostage, or something similiar (at least when it comes to treasure).

[Silverraptor]

...and have their chest spontaneously transmuted into a pincusion for giant +1d6 cold damage magic needles.

Since Haley is chaotic, she wouldn't really care that much about a juridical desicion unless it was backed up by a overwhelming amount of sheer strength, a hostage, or something similiar (at least when it comes to treasure).

But *technically* we're not talking about the alignment rules in this thread. We're discussing whether, lawfully, Haley has to pay the gold. Now we all know that she's not, considering she's chaotic.

[hamishspence]

true- more a case of all those people saying Haley has the moral high ground in argument with celia.

Question is- since Roy knows now that Haley lied to him then- having overheard Celias comment about rejoining the guild- will he call her on it?

[Teddy]

But *technically* we're not talking about the alignment rules in this thread. We're discussing whether, lawfully, Haley has to pay the gold. Now we all know that she's not, considering she's chaotic.

Well, that's true, although I'm not really sure that a forged membership counts as a membership... Isn't it more likely that she's charged for forgery (and murder), and that she possibly owes the guild damages for this?

[derfenrirwolv]

We're discussing whether, lawfully, Haley has to pay the gold

A thieves guild is, by definition, an arrangement to trade in unlawfully acquired merchandise. As such, no legally binding agreement can be made regarding the disposition of said merchandise. If someone takes your pot and only gives you half the offered amount and you're dumb enough to try to take them to court, the case will be thrown out (and you'll be thrown in jail)

Also, the guild runs an implicit and explicit extortion. If you're not in the guild and you partake of their activities they will use violence against you. That makes any contract made with them one made under duress, which is likewise null and void.

[spargel]

Does the law even matter when it's about a guild made of thieves and murderers?

[hamishspence]

its a bit like theft of identity- if person was to forge documentation of a company, and do business pretending to be that company- the company would claim person only got that money by using their name. Making it theirs by right- getting all the benefits of membership without paying the dues.

[Silverraptor]

Does the law even matter when it's about a guild made of thieves and murderers?

As I recall, "The Wild Ones"(I think it was them) got their name trademarked at the top of their game. So, using this logic, a theives guild is under the characteristics of a company.

[krossbow]

Eh, personally i think here actions are fairly chaotic neutral here. The thieves guild is still a coercive entity that enforces its rules with, lets be honest here, murder. Therefore a chaotic individual such as Haley probably wouldn't care about owing such individuals money and would feel fully justified in stiffing them.

Hell, one could argue that being unable to get a job without belonging to the thieves guild is a malicious monopoly, and therefore chaotic individuals would be incredibly incensed at such an organization's existence, let alone pay them.



Whether or not their legalise says that she owes them money, she probably couldn't care less, just as the Russian peasantry didn't really care that, by law, they owed the Czar basically everything they owned.
Laws are just a rules; their existence doesn't neccesarily mean its right or wrong, and chaotic individuals will defer to their own judgment in almost all situations.



Lawful individuals such as Celia might feel differently, holding to the idea that order, even malicious order, generally is a good thing (such as how the thieves guild keeps out the "mobs"), and who knows, Roy too might feel the same, but in D&D's alignment system law will not work on the chaotic.

[hamishspence]

Maybe it comes from reading too much Discworld- but I can see the guild's point. Having people steal from those who are already paying protection money to them is a direct slap in the face.

Lawful characters like Vimes or Carrot don't seem particularly sympathetic to unlicenced thieves- I doubt they'd be any more sympathetic to one stealing under a forged licence.

Cheating, according to BoVD- is Evil- not just Chaotic- Haley is cheating Roy- he paid for a Guild thief and has a non-guild one, and cheating the Guild- she's getting a job that is only on offer to Guild thieves.

[Murdim]

true- more a case of all those people saying Haley has the moral high ground in argument with celia.In a Chaotic Good point of view, she has. We're talking about following a lawful obligation to give money to an Evil organisation... how could that be in line with Haley's own alignment ? Even Exalted Chaotic Good would refuse to pay the Guild.


Cheating, according to BoVD- is Evil- not just Chaotic-Go explain this to Lord Shojo. Whatever could say a stupidly labelled Transmutation spell in the BoVD, cheating is Chaotic in the OotS-verse, not Evil.

[hamishspence]

no not the spell- the action- it goes into some depth as to how villains cheat, defraud, win through unfair means, sabotage their opponents, etc.

Exalted CG woldn't have lied to Roy in the first place- would have tried to convince him its ok to hire a non-guild thief.

Shojo's CG- because he's lying To Save The World.

And even then, according to Rich in War and Xps "his fate is directly due to his own actions- no-one forced him to lie to the SG. he dies as a direct result of this"

[Forbiddenwar]

no not the spell- the action- it goes into some depth as to how villains cheat, defraud, win through unfair means, sabotage their opponents, etc.

Exalted CG woldn't have lied to Roy in the first place- would have tried to convince him its ok to hire a non-guild thief.

You have to admit that intention plays a role in morality and ethics (two intensive subjects that have killed conversations and people alike)
Cheating an evil organization out of 50% so Haley can save her father from a lifetime inprisonment strikes me as very Chaotic Neutral, in D&D core rules and oots.

[hamishspence]

One wonders whether Roy should really have been called on it- insisting that your Party Rogue be a thieves guild member does not scream Lawful Good.

The Chaotic Good Drizzt Do'Urden points out of Entreri's capture of Regis. "Regis was, in fact, a thief, and the fact that the people he stole from were thieves does not excuse the action." And goes on to point out that bounty hunters are entitled to capture criminals- and kill people obstructing them.

He still goes and rescues him though.

Remember in Origin she has apparently beeen adventuring before joining Roy- and earning money and experience. But it is only when she joins him that she runs into the "must be Guild member" problem.

[Anteros]

I'm not sure we should really be getting moral standards from Drizzt.

That said, Haley's entire profession revolves around stealing things from other people and never giving it back. It doesn't matter if she owes the guild money or not, she isn't going to pay it, and they shouldn't expect her to.

[hamishspence]

point to be made is not all CG characters are "all laws are bad" "its ok to steal from people you don't like" etc.

Point is, all those "celia is defrauding Haley" "the money is not the guilds by right" comments look a little iffy when you realize Haley was pretending to be a guild member.

[spargel]

point to be made is not all CG characters are "all laws are bad" "its ok to steal from people you don't like" etc.


Drizzt's quote sounds more like what a lawful good person would say though.

[hamishspence]

yeah- he talks the talk but breaks rules sometimes too. Entreri calls him "a paladin in drow skin" Why he's CG not NG or LG? maybe because he lays some rules aside in favour of friends, or what he thinks is right.

[David Argall]

See a lawyer. The answer will depend on which legal system you are under [and how good the lawyer is]. Rather obviously that means Haley should try to make sure the case is not tried in Greysky. Origin Haley is recruited in an unknown location close to the Redmountain Hills, which is presumably not far from Greysky, but not within city jurisdiction. So jurisdiction is unclear.]

[Kish]

Shojo's CG- because he's lying To Save The World.
Shojo's CG because he was "a scheming benevolent dictator," and Rich, thoroughly unfortunately, treated Chaotic Good as meaning "Dirty Good" there. If nothing had been indicated about Shojo's alignment except that he wasn't a paladin, I'd peg him for Lawful Evil, as the alignment which best fits "the end justifies the means".

The Greysky City thieves' guild specifically is a Lawful/Neutral Evil Thieves' Guild made up of murderers and robbers. An organization made up of neutral and lawful good rogues who never break a just law would still be called a Thieves' Guild in D&D, though, so don't generalize too much about what Thieves' Guilds are "by definition." They're organized rogue-based societies. That's it.

[derfenrirwolv]

its a bit like theft of identity- if person was to forge documentation of a company, and do business pretending to be that company- the company would claim person only got that money by using their name. Making it theirs by right- getting all the benefits of membership without paying the dues.

But in this case its the "business card" of the mob. If i present some sort of mob credentials they're not legally enforceable since the mob, by definition, isn't legal and therefore none of its names, logos, likenesses etc can be deemed legal property of anyone.

Now, the city may have some legal standing in greysky, but in that case the only area that would recognize it is greysky.

[Silverraptor]

I think it all comes down to the fact that we Do Not Know how the thieves guild is formed. If it controls most of the city, then it would be in enough of a postion of power to claim that all of its products are copyrighted and trademarked. This concludes that Haley would have to pay *if* she was lawful enough to do it.

[Y'nokhs]

point to be made is not all CG characters are "all laws are bad" "its ok to steal from people you don't like" etc.

Point is, all those "celia is defrauding Haley" "the money is not the guilds by right" comments look a little iffy when you realize Haley was pretending to be a guild member.

The money is not the guild's by right. The money is not Haleys by right. It's STOLEN. A Lawful justice system would rule it had to be returned, and lock the lot up for thievery besides. If stealing is against the law, then lawfully no "thieves guild" can exist, and laws do not apply to it, except to eradicate it. And really, Haley lied to get ahead? That's a new and different turn of events. In the earlier strips, Haley regularly defrauded the rest of the party of their loot. Greed and lying are her vices, that's nothing new. However, a CG character would argue that cheating a CE organization is a good act - indeed, giving a large amount of gold to an organization that will use it for evil is something a Paladin would balk it, even if it was the "lawful" thing to do. Haley does not "owe" the guild anything because she simply does not follow the guild's rules.
Judge: You owe the Theives' guild X thousand gold pieces!
Haley: No, I don't, and nothing you can say will change that. The only reason I haven't exterminated those scum...wait, why haven't I? It really needs to go on my "to do" list, at least I already took down Crystal. Bye-bye now, I've got important, world-saving things to attend to, don't write. O, and as I've said before, I'll kill any Theives' guild member who comes after me. So don't.

[shadzar]

I envision the entire city of Greysky to have been formed something like No Name City from Paint Your Wagon. Pretty much was always a den of thieves that built a city, and other people had the nerve to move into it. That allowed even more thieving to go on locally, and therefore rather than a whole-in-the-wall type of place, they needed a guild in order to better organize the thieving while the community was growing so that al thieves got equal opportunity employment. Probably brought on by any lawful neutral thieves in the area in conjunction with the newly former city management and government that came out of nowhere from the former little roguish boomtown that they had.

But I would think if her father was running it, then Haley would have been born into the guild with a standing lifetime membership through nepotism. :smallconfused:

[Cleverdan22]

point to be made is not all CG characters are "all laws are bad" "its ok to steal from people you don't like" etc.

Point is, all those "celia is defrauding Haley" "the money is not the guilds by right" comments look a little iffy when you realize Haley was pretending to be a guild member.

Celia's not defrauding Haley, but Haley has every right to be mad, considering that she was saving up to release her father from imprisonment. Especially since the one time we've seen her actively angry at Celia about this was two seconds after she was told.

[spargel]

Haley has a right to be mad at Celia because Celia is lawful stupid.

[mlsq42]

I always assumed that the business with the card was more an insurance thing. "The Theives Guild, being quasi-legal, agrees that whenever a member of the Guild travels with a party, they have the right not to have their stuff stolen providing the Guild gets it's cut".

A non-guild theif might steal everything, but a guild one won't.

Maybe. I read too much Discworld too.

[Kish]

Especially since the one time we've seen her actively angry at Celia about this was two seconds after she was told.
"Haley, y'know, treasure's not really that important."
"Don't EVER say that to me again."

Haley's anger at Celia had nothing to do with whether the Thieves' Guild, Haley, Celia, or the local muskrats were the "rightful" owners of the money. What mattered was that Celia had cost Haley money.

[Optimystik]

Shojo's CG because he was "a scheming benevolent dictator," and Rich, thoroughly unfortunately, treated Chaotic Good as meaning "Dirty Good" there. If nothing had been indicated about Shojo's alignment except that he wasn't a paladin, I'd peg him for Lawful Evil, as the alignment which best fits "the end justifies the means".

For that to make him evil, his means would themselves have to be evil. Lying to paladins isn't evil, merely chaotic and offensive to their code.

I pegged him as CN myself, bordering on CG - certainly not evil.

[Dagren]

Haley has a right to be mad at Celia because Celia is lawful stupid.Really? Huh. She always came across more stupid good to me.

[Kyronea]

I honestly don't get where this perception that Celia is stupid comes from. She's not stupid at all. She's naive in a world where violence is regularly used, yeah, but she's not stupid; if she was Roy wouldn't want anything to do with her.

As for Haley, she did not owe them any money, as they were not a legitimate organization. Furthermore, she cares deeply about the money itself because she's a greedy little rascal, and even further because she was going to use the money to free her father and having her money owed to the Thieves Guild would seriously cut into her gathering the required 200,000 GP.

[derfenrirwolv]

Shojo's CG because he was "a scheming benevolent dictator," and Rich, thoroughly unfortunately, treated Chaotic Good as meaning "Dirty Good" there.

Its not that chaotic good= dirty good, its that dirty good= chaotic good. The same way a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. Shojo acts crazy, his entire life is a lie, he tricks people into violating their own oaths because he thinks the oath is silly and outdated, and.... he does it all for his people. He breaks the law and uses completely unorthodox tactics to get the best result for people. That's chaotic good.

Other chaotic good characters include elan, who aside from some desperation petty theft are as clean as the driven snow (mostly from not realizing anyone's peeing in the snowbank)



If nothing had been indicated about Shojo's alignment except that he wasn't a paladin, I'd peg him for Lawful Evil, as the alignment which best fits "the end justifies the means".

There's a difference between doing unlawful acts to a good end and doing evil acts to a good end. What did Shojo do that was evil? Send a paladin to bring people to him? Pretend to be nuts? Incarcerate the upstanding citizens of the linear guild without a trial? Break an oath/law that he never made?

The closest thing we have to him doing an evil act is enacting broccoli night. Everything else is merely chaotic. Its not like he's killing babies for social planning. He's breaking laws because they're in the way of doing the right thing, which is the essence of chaotic good.

[Kish]

Its not that chaotic good= dirty good, its that dirty good= chaotic good.
[...]

I hope you're writing for a wider audience and not trying to convince me, in particular, to agree with an interpretation which casts Chaotic Good as less "good" than Lawful Good, 'cause the latter is, I promise, utterly pointless. :smalltongue:


The same way a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. Shojo acts crazy, his entire life is a lie, he tricks people into violating their own oaths because he thinks the oath is silly and outdated, and.... he does it all for his people.

You do realize that "Everything I did, I did for my people" is a very slight paraphrase of something Pol Pot said, don't you?

He maintains his power by trickery and deceit. He deliberately humiliates O-Chul, either for fun or to distract him. He laughs behind the paladins' backs about how stupid they are. And, oh yeah...


There's a difference between doing unlawful acts to a good end and doing evil acts to a good end. What did Shojo do that was evil? Send a paladin to bring people to him?

A borderline psychotic paladin who very nearly killed them. A paladin who Shojo had personally manipulated in ways that interacted particularly badly with her psyche, starting with telling her she had a special destiny and must dedicate herself to doing exactly what he said, and continuing every time he lied to her.

Incarcerate the upstanding citizens of the linear guild without a trial?

Frankly, yes--imprison two people (and one fiend, but I'd give him a pass for just that one)--on the word of mercenaries who he barely knew. (I would add "and treated with a marked lack of respect," except that Shojo treated everyone with a marked lack of respect.)

Even Rich, in the author's commentary for War and XPs, points out that Shojo set up his own downfall because he had no respect for his paladins. Thinking, "Only I know what is best for everyone, so I will manipulate them, often in ways that risk their lives and sanity, to do what I know is best" demonstrates an absolute lack of regard for everyone else's freedom and individuality, and that's certainly not my definition of Chaotic Good.

Yes, Elan is not dirty in the same way Shojo is. (Rather, he's consistently and staggering irresponsible.) I complained that Shojo was treated as "Chaotic Good"="Dirty Good," not that every Chaotic character in the strip was. (Though I also have issues with Haley's portrayal alignmentwise, but that's a subject for another day, and she's only Good-ish anyway.)

[David Argall]

I think it all comes down to the fact that we Do Not Know
We do not KNOW much of anything about the OOTS world, and routinely have to use our best guess or be silent [which is boring and rejected out of hand].
Here we see Haley acting in a fraudulent manner that might harm either the Thieves Guild or Roy, and thus she may owe redress to either or both. Just what that redress should be is entirely a different matter, and can vary widely from zero to more than she can possibly pay. [Under certain conditions, they could even owe her.] We can expect the Thieves Guild to put the worst spin on it, and demand all she has, and more, but that does not mean the judge has to honor that demand even if it is a Greysky judge.
There are a variety of grounds for possibly dismissing the complaint or reducing damages to some trivial level, and local rules can vary widely. So Haley would have to make sure she was tried in a friendly jurisdiction, but this might well end up as just pocket change.

[hamishspence]

true- but how exactly would they owe her after she forged their card in order to get a job?

[derfenrirwolv]

I hope you're writing for a wider audience and not trying to convince me, in particular, to agree with an interpretation which casts Chaotic Good as less "good" than Lawful Good, 'cause the latter is, I promise, utterly pointless. :smalltongue:

You seem to think that chaotic good is dirtier. You seem to have law mixed up with good, so i wasn't going to try to blatently call you on it, i was going to try to work you around to it.

Look at any chaotic good character. They're going to do something that offends peoples sensibilities because most people have their sensibilities inextricably (an incorrectly) wrapped up in what good is. Robin hood ambushes people, uses hit and run tactics, steals from people. Elan frequently violates streaking statutes.





You do realize that "Everything I did, I did for my people" is a very slight paraphrase of something Pol Pot said, don't you?

I was thinking french revolution for some reason.




He maintains his power by trickery and deceit. He deliberately humiliates O-Chul, either for fun or to distract him. He laughs behind the paladins' backs about how stupid they are. And, oh yeah...

Trickery is not an evil act. Its a chaotic one. Tricking people into giving you their money is evil. Tricking people into doing whats best for the kingdom is... a good politicians JOB. He only threatened to make o chul clean the liter box as motivation. And he's not so much laughing at the paladins as banging his head into the desk when they do something lawful stupid.




A borderline psychotic paladin who very nearly killed them. A paladin who Shojo had personally manipulated in ways that interacted particularly badly with her psyche, starting with telling her she had a special destiny and must dedicate herself to doing exactly what he said, and continuing every time he lied to her.

She didn't start out borderline psyco. She was fairly sane to start with, and her time with the order... surpassed her knowledge: limits of her own satnity check.

i'm pretty sure "you have a special destiny ahead of you" is part of the initiation ceremony for ALL first level paladins.




Frankly, yes--imprison two people (and one fiend, but I'd give him a pass for just that one)--on the word of mercenaries who he barely knew. (I would add "and treated with a marked lack of respect," except that Shojo treated everyone with a marked lack of respect.)

What, you didn't think good meant a trial by jury and freedom of speech did you? That's what we think of as lawful good because that's what the laws are in our society. D&D societies are different. A ruler tossing people into jail is only illegal in azure city because the laws of azure city say they're supposed to get a trial. In other realms "The noble said lock them up" could be perfectly legal grounds for incarceration. The only question here as far as good goes is did the people deserve to be locked up. Thats a big yes. Therefore, anything else is a matter of law vs chaos, not good vs evil.

Shojo probably had a huge sense motive score, knew Roy was basically a good person from listening him talk to his dad, and entrusted him with the fate of the world. Compared to that, trusting him as an eyewitness to Nale's actions in cliffport and elan as an eyewitness for his actions in azure city is nothing. He's also quite clearly guilty of associating with fiends. There's nothing evil about incarcerating people who deserve it, otherwise every adventuring party would be evil for tying the badguys up.





Even Rich, in the author's commentary for War and XPs, points out that Shojo set up his own downfall because he had no respect for his paladins. Thinking, "Only I know what is best for everyone, so I will manipulate them, often in ways that risk their lives and sanity, to do what I know is best" demonstrates an absolute lack of regard for everyone else's freedom and individuality, and that's certainly not my definition of Chaotic Good.

First, Arrogance does not= evil. Secondly, It was shojo's JOB to decide what was best for everyone. He was the ruler of azure city. Its not arrogant for a doctor to decide what needs to be sliced out of a patient, its not arrogant for a ruler to set the course of their nation. It may have been post mortem reconciliation, but the soldiers on the wall seemed to have a good deal of respect for their fallen leader "keeping the nobles in line".

Shojo manipulated people to the best end possible. A lawful evil ruler would have just ordered them to do it on pain of death, not on pain of having to clean a litter box.

No, its not surprising that one of shojo's schemes came back to bite him in the ass. I think he was surprised it was THIS one, but i think he knew full well that with all the games he was playing his chances of dying from old age were nil.


Yes, Elan is not dirty in the same way Shojo is. (Rather, he's consistently and staggering irresponsible.) I complained that Shojo was treated as "Chaotic Good"="Dirty Good," not that every Chaotic character in the strip was. (Though I also have issues with Haley's portrayal alignmentwise, but that's a subject for another day, and she's only Good-ish anyway.)

What i'm saying is that dirty (lying, scheming, ambushing,) good is one of the flavors of chaotic good. Not the only one, but a perfectly legitimate one.

[hamishspence]

According to Complete Scoundrel, Dirty Good can be LG, NG, or CG.

But then, its a bit more generous with alignment- Batman as LG, Malcolm Reynolds as CG.

The good person who does occasional, mildly morally wrong acts- in the cause of good, is, I think, closer to the exact meaning of Dirty Good.

Shojo's treatment of both the Order and the Sapphire Guard fits this.

the person who routinely does seriously morally wrong acts in the cause of good (or, if you prefer, the cause of Others) is Necessarily Evil- like The Operative in Serenity.

[Kish]

You seem to think that chaotic good is dirtier. You seem to have law mixed up with good, so i wasn't going to try to blatently call you on it, i was going to try to work you around to it.
I'd quote more of your post, but the formatting seems to be messed up.

All the times in that post you say, "That's not evil, that's chaotic," and your concluding assertion that dirty good is a legitimate interpretation of what chaotic good means? Those are your opinions. You don't support them with anything but proof by assertion. Luckily for you, it seems Rich agrees with you, in the case of Shojo. I don't. And, with each of us believing the other one has law mixed up with good (actually, I also think you have law mixed up with chaos. Valuing freedom and individual rights? That's Chaotic Good. Talking about the ends justifying the means and the good of the many outweighing harm to the few? That's extremely Lawful), we should agree to disagree.

[derfenrirwolv]

All the times in that post you say, "That's not evil, that's chaotic," and your concluding assertion that dirty good is a legitimate interpretation of what chaotic good means? Those are your opinions. You don't support them with anything but proof by assertion.

I also provided examples based on name, common archetypes of the alignments. If you don't agree that those archtypes are chaotic good, or don't agree the actions are similar you have room to argue, but don't claim I'm making an argument by brute declaration because I'm not. You can also point to any action i say is chaotic but not evil and try to say that its evil.



Luckily for you, it seems Rich agrees with you, in the case of Shojo. I don't. And, with each of us believing the other one has law mixed up with good (actually, I also think you have law mixed up with chaos. Valuing freedom and individual rights? That's Chaotic Good. Talking about the ends justifying the means and the good of the many outweighing harm to the few? That's extremely Lawful)

*blows whistle* Time out. I'm not saying chaotic good is the needs of the many outweigh the means of the few (that is indeed, a lawful approach). I'm saying that it means the needs of people outweigh the needs of a SYSTEM, whether they be the formal laws of government or the informal laws of society. Most of Shojos actions aren't against people, they're against a system. Telling Miko "you, go here, capture/kill this person" doesn't particularly hurt miko. She's an adventuring paladin, it what she does, and Shojo's her boss... he can tell her what to do.


What Shojo did though was to use that authority to violate sune's oath and the sapphire guard's promise to uphold that oath. The Oath is not a person. To a chaotic good person it may have a good intention, but if a situation comes up where its a bad idea it has to go because rules aren't as important as people.


Nor does "You have a special destiny ahead of you" come across as a particular mind screw... its just the sort of thing you hear at graduation. She, having an overinflated ego, took it literally. I don't hunt down and bisect my college commencement speaker because instead of great things i got a manual labor job a broken back and a broken foot.


As to Capturing the Order of the Stick. Yes, Shojo was less than considerate about the individual rights of the order. Did he violate his alignment with the act? Probably. Does violating an alignment mean you don't have it? No. Roy's conversation with the REAL being of pure divine good (tm) demonstrates that your alignments are not strait jackets, there's some wiggle room to make mistakes and adjust to circumstances, and the end of the world is a pretty big circumstance. For example, does anyone think elan is non good because he stole so he could save the life of the woman he loves?

Is there anything evil about putting the linear guild in jail? They're a lawful evil sorcerer/rogue/fighter a chaotic evil barbarian and a SUCCUBUS. They're all mass murderers. Jail is the LEAST they deserve. You complain that they're there without a trial, but a trial is a LEGAL entity, not a moral one.


A lot of what we know about shojo comes from what he says and from off screen. He calls himself a benevolent dictator, and i see no reason to doubt him. Guy with a halberd #34 seems to think he was nuts, but at least he kept the nobles in line. A lawfull evil ruler could order death for disobedience, Shojo orders cleaning a liter box.








we should agree to disagree.

[Kish]

I also provided examples based on name, common archetypes of the alignments.

One actually, unless I missed others, Robin Hood. Unless you also mean Elan, who acts very little like Shojo at all.

If you don't agree that those archtypes are chaotic good, or don't agree the actions are similar you have room to argue,

I don't agree with either. I've seen Robin Hood written up in D&D with each of the three Good alignments (I think the first one was actually Neutral Good), and I can't think of anything he did that's similar to Shojo. Lie to his Merry Men (or, for that matter, to the peasants they were, in some versions of the legend, trying to help)? No. Have someone he didn't believe to be evil kidnapped at gun(sword)point? No...I could keep listing things Shojo did that don't fit Robin Hood, but I can't think of any that actually do.


Most of Shojos actions aren't against people, they're against a system. Telling Miko "you, go here, capture/kill this person" doesn't particularly hurt miko. She's an adventuring paladin, it what she does, and Shojo's her boss... he can tell her what to do.

No, it hurts the people she's being sent to capture, when she faces down a mostly-Good Aligned group with the idea that they're a group of ruthless killers who, for the sake of Lord Shojo's cat, she should make a token effort to bring back alive before slicing and dicing.


What Shojo did though was to use that authority to violate sune's oath and the sapphire guard's promise to uphold that oath. The Oath is not a person. To a chaotic good person it may have a good intention, but if a situation comes up where its a bad idea it has to go because rules aren't as important as people.

The Sapphire Guard is made up of people. To treat them as an entity rather than a group of individuals with rights is also very far from what I'd call a Chaotic Good attitude.


Nor does "You have a special destiny ahead of you" come across as a particular mind screw...

To an impressionable orphaned teenage girl who spent her formative years being hammered with the notion of discipline, first as a monk and then as a paladin.

Both Hinjo and Miko herself were clearly deeply hurt by his deception. Hinjo talked about spending years praying for his uncle to get better, and the closest Shojo got to acting like he cared at all amounted to "I'm sorry I got caught, how much of my lies can I still salvage from this?"


its just the sort of thing you hear at graduation. She, having an overinflated ego, took it literally. I don't hunt down and bisect my college commencement speaker because instead of great things i got a manual labor job a broken back and a broken foot.

Yeow. I hope this is a figure of speech and not literal truth. :smallfrown:


As to Capturing the Order of the Stick. Yes, Shojo was less than considerate about the individual rights of the order. Did he violate his alignment with the act? Probably. Does violating an alignment mean you don't have it? No.

Not unless it's part of a pattern. I contend that it's the pattern Shojo shows with everyone he interacts with--his paladins, his mercenaries, even his nephew. They're more chess pieces than people. It's sheer luck that Miko didn't Fall from killing someone she'd been given blatantly inadequate and misleading information about years ago.


Is there anything evil about putting the linear guild in jail?

This hinges on the belief that Shojo is perceptive enough to trust Roy's unsupported word, even though he both screwed up lethally in judging Miko's mental state and didn't realize that Roy was lying about his reasons for going to Cliffport. I find that implausible, as well. They're a blond man who looks like Elan, a half-orc, and a succubus. Shojo has the word of someone he barely knows who has no qualms about lying to Shojo and lying to everyone Shojo wants him to lie to, that all three are evil (and even, for that matter, that Nale and Thog have an affiliation with the succubus that goes beyond "these are all Roy Greenhilt's enemies").


You complain that they're there without a trial,

I complain, rather, that Shojo agreed to lock them up and throw away the key with no sign of any efforts to verify that they had done anything.



A lot of what we know about shojo comes from what he says and from off screen. He calls himself a benevolent dictator,

I find the entire juxtaposition of "Chaotic" with "Dictator" extremely problematic. Moreover, I can't think of anything he does that seems particularly Chaotic unless you consider lying inherently Chaotic--which Rich well may.

[Lunaya]

At the risk of being repetitive, I would also like to submit that Haley never actually hired Celia to represent her. Any deal Celia made with the Guild is completely irrelevant if Haley wasn't there to agree to it.

[derfenrirwolv]

Kish One actually, unless I missed others, Robin Hood. Unless you also mean Elan, who acts very little like Shojo at all.

But they share the same alignment.




I don't agree with either. I've seen Robin Hood written up in D&D with each of the three Good alignments (I think the first one was actually Neutral Good), and I can't think of anything he did that's similar to Shojo. Lie to his Merry Men (or, for that matter, to the peasants they were, in some versions of the legend, trying to help)? No. Have someone he didn't believe to be evil kidnapped at gun(sword)point? No...I could keep listing things Shojo did that don't fit Robin Hood, but I can't think of any that actually do.

He was given as the archtype for chaotic good in 2.0. He's known for robbing from the rich merchants and greedy tax collectors to give to the poor. Robbery is, by definition, illegal, but he puts it to a good end (disrupting an evil government and keeping the poor fed). Are we at least in agreement that that's chaotic good?

What Shojo did was break laws and societal conventions, not people.



No, it hurts the people she's being sent to capture, when she faces down a mostly-Good Aligned group with the idea that they're a group of ruthless killers who, for the sake of Lord Shojo's cat, she should make a token effort to bring back alive before slicing and dicing.

i think it was something along the lines up "mr scruffy would like you to make every effort to bring them in alive".



To an impressionable orphaned teenage girl who spent her formative years being hammered with the notion of discipline, first as a monk and then as a paladin.

I think you're reading a LOT into that one sentence and judging Shojo very harshly for it. We have nothing to indicate that him telling her that was part of any Machiavellian plot or was anything other than an honest assessment of her potential. I mean, seriously, she rolled almost strait 18's on her character. Paladin monk is a nasty combination if you have the stats for it.




Both Hinjo and Miko herself were clearly deeply hurt by his deception. Hinjo talked about spending years praying for his uncle to get better, and the closest Shojo got to acting like he cared at all amounted to "I'm sorry I got caught, how much of my lies can I still salvage from this?"

He pretended to be crazy so he didn't get killed. Isn't robin hood famous for his disguises? Shojo just took it to the next level.




Not unless it's part of a pattern. I contend that it's the pattern Shojo shows with everyone he interacts with--his paladins, his mercenaries, even his nephew.

They're HIS paladins and his mercenaries. Whats he trying to do with them? Protect the people of azure Stop the end of the world. (good). How is he going about it? Acting insane, ignoring the laws regarding his own power and reach, and throwing social protocols to the wind (chaotic). Now, if he was committing blatantly evil acts in the pursuit of a good end that would be a problem.




This hinges on the belief that Shojo is perceptive enough to trust Roy's unsupported word, even though he both screwed up lethally in judging Miko's mental state and didn't realize that Roy was lying about his reasons for going to Cliffport. I find that implausible, as well.

They were, in fact, checking out a known associate of Xykons. As to why Shojo can trust Roy, remember Shojo summoned Roy's dad from the lawful good realms and had an extended conversation with him. Shojo has the word of a lawful good ghost that his son is a good person, and Roys conversation with his dad talking about how he needed to stop Xykon because he's a threat.




I complain, rather, that Shojo agreed to lock them up and throw away the key with no sign of any efforts to verify that they had done anything.

Traveling with a succubus is NOT a sign of good intent. He could have been planning to check the story out eventually. We don't know if he was planning on holding them indefinitely without asking the cliff port PD what happened, as his long term plans were interrupted by a case of spontaneous bisection.




I find the entire juxtaposition of "Chaotic" with "Dictator" extremely problematic. Moreover, I can't think of anything he does that seems particularly Chaotic unless you consider lying inherently Chaotic--which Rich well may.

Well, Shojo technically isn't a dictator. he has laws and rules he's supposed to be working within (he simply works AROUND them) which makes him a limited monarch.



A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way

Thats shojo to a T.


but he’s kind and benevolent.

You think he manipulated Miko into her psychosis. I don't see any evidence for that. Ok, imprisoning the order rather than finding another way to get them down there was a bit much. He did however have a good reputation for protecting the common people from the nobles, which is what you'd expect from a good person.



He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations.

I think belkar said his use for regulations was to roll them up and use them to smoke a fattie.



He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do.

well he hates when OTHERS do it...



Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.

He's definitely a free spirit. I think his hearts in the right place, even if he's willing to skirt around the paladins law.

[The MunchKING]

true- more a case of all those people saying Haley has the moral high ground in argument with celia.

Question is- since Roy knows now that Haley lied to him then- having overheard Celias comment about rejoining the guild- will he call her on it?

Probably not. Water under the drawbridge now. Besides, his stated reason for wanting Guild thives only (assassins attempting hits for hiring scabs) has been resolved as she assassinated the assassins and (Hopefully) put the fear of arrowy death into them.

[The MunchKING]

But in this case its the "business card" of the mob. If i present some sort of mob credentials they're not legally enforceable since the mob, by definition, isn't legal and therefore none of its names, logos, likenesses etc can be deemed legal property of anyone.

Now, the city may have some legal standing in greysky, but in that case the only area that would recognize it is greysky.

It's the MOB! If you claim you're a mob's main hitman, and use that to get a bunch of contracts working for "independant contractors" hunting warcriminals in Iraq or something, the mob's going to hunt you down and feed you those lies wrapped around a big helping of "lead pipe" with a side order of "knife".

THAT's all the law that matters to rogues. :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

"Haley, y'know, treasure's not really that important."
"Don't EVER say that to me again."

Haley's anger at Celia had nothing to do with whether the Thieves' Guild, Haley, Celia, or the local muskrats were the "rightful" owners of the money. What mattered was that Celia had cost Haley money.
Well not only that (as Haley is more than willing to give out large sums of money if the cause is right), but Celia did it for no other purpose than to screw with Haley. I mean they were winning. If a non-violent end to the fighting was all she really wanted, she could have screwed the Thieves Guild a lot harder with the contract, and they still would have taken it (Especially when they saw what happened to Bozzak or were told by 14HP girl). Celia wanted "to violate YOUR principles all over the place". And That's (the main reason) why Haley was mad.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Haley is cheating Roy- he paid for a Guild thief
No he didn't! He specifically said he wasn't paying anything. She's not a hireling, she's a member of the party and her "pay" is just a share of the treasure she helps obtain. She may be travelling with him under false pretenses, but she can't really be said to be cheating him. And besides, Roy's fought along side her for so long he probably doesn't care.

[derfenrirwolv]

t's the MOB! If you claim you're a mob's main hitman, and use that to get a bunch of contracts working for "independant contractors" hunting warcriminals in Iraq or something, the mob's going to hunt you down and feed you those lies wrapped around a big helping of "lead pipe" with a side order of "knife".

Right, but they DON"T sick the attorney general on you, which was the point of this topic... whether Haley LEGALLY owes the thieves guild money.



THAT's all the law that matters to rogues

I believe Haley's real lawyers: Sneak attack, multi shot, rapid shot and psychotic halfling had a stunning counterargument.

[shadzar]

Hmmm.

Did Roy grant Celia perpetual power of proxy over the matters of the OOTS when she was their attorney in the Azure City trial?

Did Haley give proxy to Roy to decide such things for her as a part of OOTS?

Does Celia remain a retainer for OOTS if retained by Roy, after Roy's death?

Is the agreement Celia made with Hank even legal and/or binding, or did Celia in an attempt to do good commit fraud?

:smallconfused:

[Kish]

He was given as the archtype for chaotic good in 2.0. He's known for robbing from the rich merchants and greedy tax collectors to give to the poor. Robbery is, by definition, illegal, but he puts it to a good end (disrupting an evil government and keeping the poor fed). Are we at least in agreement that that's chaotic good?

Sort of. If you focus on that particular aspect of the legend and not, say, the parts that say he was a very loyal subject of King Richard who hated that he felt the obligation to become an outlaw and never let Prince John's descriptions of him (Robin) as a traitor to the crown go unchallenged.

And if he routinely lied to his Merry Men and manipulated the peasants he was supposedly trying to help, he'd even look a little like Shojo, around the edges, so I'm not at all sure where you're trying to go with this. "Elan and Robin Hood are both Chaotic Good" doesn't lead to "and therefore so is Shojo." Shojo is nothing like either one of them.


i think it was something along the lines up "mr scruffy would like you to make every effort to bring them in alive".

To which Miko responded by giving them one chance to surrender immediately and then attacking to kill. Turning a person into a weapon is not Chaotic Good. Turning such a dangerous and unstable weapon loose is not Good at all.


He pretended to be crazy so he didn't get killed. Isn't robin hood famous for his disguises? Shojo just took it to the next level.

Robin Hood deceives the Sherrif of Nottingham, Prince John, and their men. Not his Merry Men, and not innocent people. Do you truly see no difference there?


They're HIS paladins and his mercenaries.

Not a Chaotic Good attitude.


well he hates when OTHERS do it...

...

Uh-huh.

[derfenrirwolv]

Sort of. If you focus on that particular aspect of the legend and not, say, the parts that say he was a very loyal subject of King Richard who hated that he felt the obligation to become an outlaw and never let Prince John's descriptions of him (Robin) as a traitor to the crown go unchallenged.

Those parts were added later, which explains why a lot of them don't make sense. If king Richard is off crusading, the next in line has to rule in his place. And he also needs taxes, because all that armor his brother is wearing, and the people around him, and all of THEIR armor isn't cheap.


[QUOTE]
And if he routinely lied to his Merry Men and manipulated the peasants he was supposedly trying to help, he'd even look a little like Shojo, around the edges, so I'm not at all sure where you're trying to go with this. "Elan and Robin Hood are both Chaotic Good" doesn't lead to "and therefore so is Shojo." Shojo is nothing like either one of them.

They all say "screw the rules, I'm doing what I think is the right thing".
Robin Hood stole money to give it to the people who really needed it, elan thinks he's on an adventure if he's doing a half naked handstand, and shojo says to heck with the paladins oath, there's a threat to the gates i'm doing something about it.


Take a look at what Shojo's life is like. He can't talk to anyone, he can't enjoy a meal with anyone, his life is in constant danger, and he can't even have a conversation with his only living relative. WHY do you think he's putting up with that? For his own benefit? Shojo's a smart guy. If he wanted sex, booze, women and riches that throne room would have been covered in hussies holding golden bottles of saki.




To which Miko responded by giving them one chance to surrender immediately and then attacking to kill.

She did that because she detected roy as evil. I don't think ANYONE saw, or could have reasonably been expected to see, that comming. Shojo thought he was sending her after some good aligned adventurers, figured she'd detect evil, find nothing, and proceed accordingly. Sometimes plans are just setting up the punchline for gods jokes.



Turning a person into a weapon is not Chaotic Good.

Again, there's nothing to indicate he brainwashed Miko. from monks she probably had glowing recomendations for paladinhood.




Robin Hood deceives the Sherrif of Nottingham, Prince John, and their men. Not his Merry Men, and not innocent people. Do you truly see no difference there?

Morally yes there's a difference, but in terms of alignment loyalty doesn't factor much into it.

[Morgan Wick]

But *technically* we're not talking about the alignment rules in this thread. We're discussing whether, lawfully, Haley has to pay the gold. Now we all know that she's not, considering she's chaotic.

I find this ironic, considering we're doing nothing BUT talking about the alignment rules now...


Shojo's CG because he was "a scheming benevolent dictator," and Rich, thoroughly unfortunately, treated Chaotic Good as meaning "Dirty Good" there. If nothing had been indicated about Shojo's alignment except that he wasn't a paladin, I'd peg him for Lawful Evil, as the alignment which best fits "the end justifies the means".

By "if nothing had been indicated about his alignment", are you referring solely to Belkar's remark on his death?

He bent the rules to get what he wanted (Chaotic), and not only was it for a greater good, the rules he broke were, in his eyes, so stupid he quite literally did nothing evil or wrong. Would you call ML King Lawful Evil then?

[Kish]

Morally yes there's a difference, but in terms of alignment loyalty doesn't factor much into it.
Morally but not in terms of alignment? What on earth do you think the Good alignment even means, if morality is irrelevant to it?


By "if nothing had been indicated about his alignment", are you referring solely to Belkar's remark on his death?

No, also his statement that he wasn't Lawful.



He bent the rules to get what he wanted (Chaotic), and not only was it for a greater good, the rules he broke were, in his eyes, so stupid he quite literally did nothing evil or wrong. Would you call ML King Lawful Evil then?
With the first sentence in that paragraph, I was just about to ask you if you would call Redcloak Chaotic Good then.

Certainly, I'll call Martin Luther King Lawful Evil as soon as you give me a comparable-to-Shojo list of people he lied to, manipulated, and endangered for his belief that he knew what was best for everyone and his lack of respect for anyone else. "He's doing bad things because he believes his ends justifies the means, so he's Chaotic Good" both makes Chaotic Good the least-Good kind of Good and eliminates massive chunks of the Evil and Neutral alignments. Knight Templar? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) Chaotic Good.


I find this ironic, considering we're doing nothing BUT talking about the alignment rules now...

:smalleek: Yes, oops. Sorry about that. I should have remembered that every D&D forum hosts an eternal never-to-be-resolved argument about what alignment actually means what.

[Murdim]

:smallsigh:

I definitely don't think this is possible to all agree about the same definitions of Good and Chaos, and thus, about Haley's, Shojo's or even Elan's (CG or NG ?) alignments :smallfrown:

As for me, I think some people have difficulties to differentiate D&D Goodness, and the laws of morality who tries to promote this Goodness in the most common situations. Lying, deceving, cheating... are considered morally "wrong" because this usually implies someone who tries to get an undeserved and unneeded personnal gain by actively harming someone else, not because they're intrinsically Evil acts.

If Shojo looked for personnal gain, he would have accepted to become the nobles' puppet and stopped caring about all this political mess while still profiting all the advantages of a monarch's life. Yet he feigned senility, alienating himself from everyone he holds dear and risking to lose his honor and his (metaphorical) crown if his deceptions are discovered, to keep his power out of their selfish hands. Why ? Megalomania, "chessmaster syndrome", lust for power ? He doesn't seem to desperate when facing his coming judgment and dismissal ; actually, only Hinjo's (and even Miko's) own personnal, sentimental grief seemed to actually affect him. Because this is, you know, the kind of things Shojo had to sacrify to remain an independant, effective and devoted leader.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Haley forges Guild membership card. Since she has only been a member of the Greysky Guild, is highly likely that it was their card she forged.I want a job as a driver. I don't have a driver's license and so I forge one. Do I owe my earnings to the state whose license I forged? Nope.
But *technically* we're not talking about the alignment rules in this thread. We're discussing whether, lawfully, Haley has to pay the gold. Now we all know that she's not, considering she's chaotic.Lawfully. We are discussing the laws of Greysky, perhaps? And you know these laws? Please describe them to the forums, so we can have a proper debate over these laws you speak of. But if you're just making up hypothetical laws, what's the point?
Cheating, according to BoVD- is Evil- not just Chaotic- Haley is cheating Roy- he paid for a Guild thief and has a non-guild one, and cheating the Guild- she's getting a job that is only on offer to Guild thieves.BoVD is not core, and it certainly is not the last word on what is good or evil.

Roy wanted a thief, and he got one. Who was cheated? How has Roy been harmed? Even if you insist that he wanted a Guild thief specifically, how has he been harmed?
Sice Haley earned via legitimate adventuring, its not illegal earnings, so they can actually claim it- sue Haley for the use of their card to get her job.Interesting. Celia thinks she has the right to bargain away Haley's gold because it was stolen wealth, and you think you have the right to bargain it away because it was legitimately earned. How can Haley win with all these fingers in her pockets?

[David Argall]

I want a job as a driver. I don't have a driver's license and so I forge one. Do I owe my earnings to the state whose license I forged? Nope.
That depends on the local laws. Don't be shocked at finding a jurisdiction that says that is the case.
However, it is not unusual for something like a union to argue that since X got the benefits of membership, X must also pay the costs of membership. So When Haley claims to be a member in good standing, she becomes vulnerable to having to pay the given fees of being a member.


Lawfully. We are discussing the laws of Greysky, perhaps? And you know these laws? Please describe them to the forums, so we can have a proper debate over these laws you speak of.
Now of course we are largely guessing as to the laws of Greysky. However the Thieves Guild is obviously a very powerful organization within the city, which takes a very negative [usually lethal] view of non-union scabs. So it is not at all unreasonable to think they have the local authorities that anyone who says they are a member thereby has to pay dues and obey other Guild rules.


Roy wanted a thief, and he got one. Who was cheated?
Roy for one. Origin p. 59. Roy expresses a serious fear he will be attacked by guild assassins for hiring a non-member. So by claiming to be a member, Haley exposes him to that danger, even if it never happens or is imaginary.


Celia thinks she has the right to bargain away Haley's gold because it was stolen wealth, and you think you have the right to bargain it away because it was legitimately earned. How can Haley win with all these fingers in her pockets?
Well, I'm not sure we want a thief to win, and we certainly don't want to make it easy for a protagonist to win. That would be dull.

[shadzar]

Well, I'm not sure we want a thief to win, and we certainly don't want to make it easy for a protagonist to win. That would be dull.

:smallconfused: So nobody with a rogue related profession gets any of the money?

[Kish]

:smallconfused: So nobody with a rogue related profession gets any of the money?
*bonk* Rogue=/=someone who steals.

Profession of all adventurers=adventurer.

[The MunchKING]

I believe Haley's real lawyers: Sneak attack, multi shot, rapid shot and psychotic halfling had a stunning counterargument.

They are associates at Blunt Instruments and Stabity Objects Unlimited.

[Dark Matter]

To which Miko responded by giving them one chance to surrender immediately and then attacking to kill.If Miko's detect evil had been correct, i.e. Roy (team leader) was Evil with a capital "E", then not only would Miko have killed them, but she would have been correct to do so by Sojo's lights. It's a bad thing to have Team Evil running around trying to release the Snarl.


Turning a person into a weapon is not Chaotic Good. Turning such a dangerous and unstable weapon loose is not Good at all.Miko wasn't Belkar.

She didn't run around killing people for fun and profit. Sojo always interacted with her at her best (well, until the very last). From his point of view she was a pain in the ass, not an unstable killing machine. And until she killed him, that's exactly what she was.

Before that the worst that she did was try to kill Belkar, and I find it very hard to hold that against her.

[Murdim]

Well, I'm not sure we want a thief to win, and we certainly don't want to make it easy for a protagonist to win. That would be dull.I thought we were talking about the alignments/moralities of the characters, not the expectations we could have about the story :smalltongue:


Profession of all adventurers=adventurerRather than a profession in itself, isn't adventuring more a way of practising one's job : "adventuring" warrior who smashs things while adventuring, "adventuring" paladin who smites Evil while adventuring, "adventuring" mage who casts spells while adventuring, "adventuring" priest who fulfil his god's will while adventuring, "adventuring" bard who... well, I guess you all already have understood what I wanted to say. And of course, "adventuring" rogue, who do whatever roguish job (thief, conman, assassin, burglar, spy, grave robber, "treasure hunter"...) he's doing... while adventuring.

[B. Dandelion]

I want a job as a driver. I don't have a driver's license and so I forge one.

More like forging an SSI. Haley had already provided satisfactory proof that she was a capable thief when he asked for the card -- that wasn't what he was looking for.


Do I owe my earnings to the state whose license I forged?

If you forge an SSI are you exempt from payroll taxes?

[shadzar]

*bonk* Rogue=/=someone who steals.

Profession of all adventurers=adventurer.

You could say to me with a straight face that Haley is any less a thief than Bozzak et all?

Not that it has much to do with the overall of the thread, just saying. A thief will get the money either way, be they guilded NPC or adventurer. :smallcool:

[Optimystik]

I want a job as a driver. I don't have a driver's license and so I forge one. Do I owe my earnings to the state whose license I forged? Nope.

Incorrect, and a terrible example. Just as unlawful income is still taxable (that's how they nailed Al Capone), unlawful activities are not exempt from jurisprudence simply by being illicit themselves.


Well, I'm not sure we want a thief to win, and we certainly don't want to make it easy for a protagonist to win. That would be dull.

Narratives tend to care more about the greater good. Haley's kleptomania is in aid of a higher purpose, so she will be likely to succeed - though the process may change her. (If her treatment of Crystal is any indication, it already has)

[Kish]

You could say to me with a straight face that Haley is any less a thief than Bozzak et all?
I wouldn't need to. You didn't say "Haley," you said "[anybody] with a rogue related profession." Of course Haley, personally, is a thief; she steals from everyone from villains to her companions to random bystanders. But Sergeant Crugeon Dagarkin of the Cliffport Police Department* is a rogue who wouldn't dream of stealing, and so are any number of adventuring rogues.

*Don't bother looking through old strips for him, I just made him up. Various D&D books make the point that "rogue" is the best class for NPCs who work in law enforcement.

[The MunchKING]

Incorrect, and a terrible example. Just as unlawful income is still taxable (that's how they nailed Al Capone), unlawful activities are not exempt from jurisprudence simply by being illicit themselves.


I actually heard if you just put X Amount of money "Illegal Income" and paid taxes on it, as far as the IRS was concerned you were Golden.

[shadzar]

I wouldn't need to. You didn't say "Haley," you said "[anybody] with a rogue related profession." Of course Haley, personally, is a thief; she steals from everyone from villains to her companions to random bystanders. But Sergeant Crugeon Dagarkin of the Cliffport Police Department* is a rogue who wouldn't dream of stealing, and so are any number of adventuring rogues.

*Don't bother looking through old strips for him, I just made him up. Various D&D books make the point that "rogue" is the best class for NPCs who work in law enforcement.

:smallwink: rogue a law enforcement... got to get the kickbacks (see Greysky City where the "cop" is getting paid to look the other way when Celia enters it.)

So I see what you mean now. :smallsmile:

But still don't think Haley owes anything if Celia didn't have executive power of her estate. Rogues/thieves also get bluff checks still right?

[B. Dandelion]

I actually heard if you just put X Amount of money "Illegal Income" and paid taxes on it, as far as the IRS was concerned you were Golden.

That is at best misleading. If you report illegal income, it won't be the IRS prosecuting you, but that doesn't mean you're not still screwed six ways from Sunday if you actually disclose this information. Report illegal income and you explicitly incriminate yourself, and Fifth Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution# Federal_income_tax) not withstanding, you're still required to do it. But if you do list it, the IRS will take your money and then cheerfully turn you over (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/295/are-you-required-to-report-illegal-income-on-your-tax-return) to law enforcement officials. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But, hey, if you're feeling lucky -- apparently it's still open to challenge if you report the monetary amount of your ill-gotten gains but classify their origin only as "Fifth Amendment activities." Commit some crimes and let us know how that works out for ya. :smallwink:

[The MunchKING]

But, hey, if you're feeling lucky -- apparently it's still open to challenge if you report the monetary amount of your ill-gotten gains but classify their origin only as "Fifth Amendment activities." Commit some crimes and let us know how that works out for ya. :smallwink:

Oh I"M not dumb enough to try it. But I just heard it was an interesting way of solving the capone gambit.

[B. Dandelion]

Oh I"M not dumb enough to try it. But I just heard it was an interesting way of solving the capone gambit.

Oh, I'm sure you're not. But I think it's interesting too, and while it's pretty far-fetched there is an outside possibility that someone could try it and have it challenged. That'd be a ruling to keep an ear out for. Maybe even a landmark case -- it'd set a lot of precedents regarding Fifth Amendment-related issues, and in a world where it's becoming easier and easier to track and record every move people make, information you're allowed to withhold is precious.