"Complete and total ultimate arcane power" huh?

[krossbow]

Thinking about it, it really wasn't too "ultimate". "ultimate" implies that no other arcane power can overcome it; however, Xykon's dispelling DID overcome it, meaning that it was vulnerable to other arcane power, and hence, not "ultimate".




Maybe i'm nitpicking, but it seems somewhat like V's power was a bit of a gip. Being beaten with a rock instead of a spell is a nice loophole since thats a different sort of threat than arcane, but Xykon's magic itself, by prophesy, shouldn't have been able to do so.

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?

[Optimystik]

Having the world's most powerful gun doesn't mean jack if you shoot yourself in the foot with it.

In other words, they gave him power - not sense.

[Silverraptor]

The ultimate arcane power was reduced in power quite a bit after one of the souls got away.

[Ridureyu]

Having the world's most powerful gun doesn't mean jack if you shoot yourself in the foot with it.



This wins the thread.

[[TS] Shadow]

Thinking about it, it really wasn't too "ultimate". "ultimate" implies that no other arcane power can overcome it; however, Xykon's dispelling DID overcome it, meaning that it was vulnerable to other arcane power, and hence, not "ultimate".




Maybe i'm nitpicking, but it seems somewhat like V's power was a bit of a gip. Being beaten with a rock instead of a spell is a nice loophole since thats a different sort of threat than arcane, but Xykon's magic itself, by prophesy, shouldn't have been able to do so.

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?


V was not at his full power when confronting Xykon. Haerta was gone (thus making him 33% weaker) and he had already used quite a few epic and high level spells. There are plenty of threads for this topic though: try not to make new ones when others already exist.

EDIT: Wow...I was ninja'd three times.

[Shadowcaller]

Thinking about it, it really wasn't too "ultimate". "ultimate" implies that no other arcane power can overcome it; however, Xykon's dispelling DID overcome it, meaning that it was vulnerable to other arcane power, and hence, not "ultimate".




Maybe i'm nitpicking, but it seems somewhat like V's power was a bit of a gip. Being beaten with a rock instead of a spell is a nice loophole since thats a different sort of threat than arcane, but Xykon's magic itself, by prophesy, shouldn't have been able to do so.

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?

Well, remember that he lost the most powerful part of the splice before he encountered Xykon. If he had had all the souls, he might have beaten Xykon quite easily.

[Silverraptor]

This wins the thread.

Agreed! Bravo Optimystik.

[TheBST]

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?

Maybe it was the 'ultimate' level of power that V will ever achieve, not the most powerful in the history of the world.

Most likely the fiends are just (gasp!) liars.

[Helanna]

Oh . . . wow. Thanks to a certain TV Tropes page involving nitpicky-ness, I just realized:

"Ultimate" does not always mean "best". Sometimes it means *last*.

Combined with the implication in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) comic (At least, I think it's foreshadowing) . . . I dunno, V's chances of survival are looking slim here.

[Kilremgor]

Maybe it was the 'ultimate' level of power that V will ever achieve, not the most powerful in the history of the world.

Most likely the fiends are just (gasp!) liars.

Regarding 'fiends are liars' point, one of them is very likely devil, Lawful Evil, who could twist the meaning but is not likely to tell outright lie when proposing a contract.

And it seems the fiend who formulated the contract is the said Devil (Cedrik?), as the tone of his comments is that of lawful evil; and when they discuss their source of information, Director Lee is confirmed to be Chaotic evil, tanar'ri (having succubus under his command), thus, by contrast, Cedrik is further hinted at being Lawful Evil devil.

So fiends lying directly is unlikely. It makes sense that Devil is setting up contracts in IFCC; and they don't directly lie, usually.

So that may mean that 'wildest imagination of previous customers matching your demographic profile' was somewhat weak to be considered true 'ultimate arcane power'.
V just didn't read the most important text in the contract: one with a smaller font :smallbiggrin:

Edit: btw, who is 3rd Director? CE demon (tanar'ri) Lee, LE devil (baatezu) Cedrik, and NE (probably) what(?) Nero?
Keep forgetting the other (non-tanar'ri non-baatezu) fiend races.

[Volkov]

Regarding 'fiends are liars' point, one of them is very likely devil, Lawful Evil, who could twist the meaning but is not likely to tell outright lie when proposing a contract.

And it seems the fiend who formulated the contract is the said Devil (Cedrik?), as the tone of his comments is that of lawful evil; and when they discuss their source of information, Director Lee is confirmed to be Chaotic evil, tanar'ri (having succubus under his command), thus, by contrast, Cedrik is further hinted at being Lawful Evil devil.

So fiends lying directly is unlikely. It makes sense that Devil is setting up contracts in IFCC; and they don't directly lie, usually.

So that may mean that 'wildest imagination of previous customers matching your demographic profile' was somewhat weak to be considered true 'ultimate arcane power'.
V just didn't read the most important text in the contract: one with a smaller font :smallbiggrin:

Edit: btw, who is 3rd Director? CE demon (tanar'ri) Lee, LE devil (baatezu) Cedrik, and NE (probably) what(?) Nero?
Keep forgetting the other (non-tanar'ri non-baatezu) fiend races.
oloths, they created the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians. The Obyriths created the Tanar'ri. The Baatezu are mostly fallen angels or warped mortals. Yugoloths are the original evil, they predate it all. And the General of Gehenna is their original ruler.

[Kilremgor]

oloths, they created the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians. The Obyriths created the Tanar'ri. The Baatezu are mostly fallen angels or warped mortals. Yugoloths are the original evil, they predate it all. And the General of Gehenna is their original ruler.
Thanks, so that means he's yuogoloth (daemon, NE)...
Then by that logic IFCC is likely his idea? (given that they don't take part in Blood War and consider unifying Lower Planes against good).
So poor V has to spend some minor time in Baator (given that Haerta escaped first), and then a bit longer in Abyss and Grey Waste?
That makes a quite decent Lower Planes trip. So much for ultimate arcane power :)

[hamishspence]

"conquer worlds" seems a bit more LE than "destroy anyone who has slighted you" Suggesting Haerta is NE.

[Kilremgor]

"conquer worlds" seems a bit more LE than "destroy anyone who has slighted you" Suggesting Haerta is NE.

Hmm...
but then...
All three fiends are color-coded in phrases, eye color, and summoning rays (in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). The one with yellow color, Lee, is CE tanar'ri (commanding succubus), so that leaves LE devil and NE daemon.
But if one with purple color (that summons Haerta, who is assumed NE in logic above) is not LE but NE (daemon), despite it's him defining contract's terms (which is more LE in purpose and style), then V is screwed... as it makes sense for daemon, unlike devil, to directly lie and trick poor V.

[Haven]

Maybe it was the 'ultimate' level of power that V will ever achieve, not the most powerful in the history of the world.

Most likely the fiends are just (gasp!) liars.

The fiends aren't the ones who made the prophecy, though.

[hamishspence]

Evidence for Orange being the devil: the college mascots pic- two baseball teams with Devils in their names.

Limited, but consistant with the "Souls match fiends" theory- which would have:

Orange: LE
Purple: NE
Yellow: CE

[JeptCloak]

This bothered me alot, and it still does, but 653 goes some way towards writing this problem out. First they lost Haerta, and secondly they had V act like an idiot then get alot of energy drained... plus even after that he still seemed to be about as good as Xykon... then he lost the Splice, meaning Ganeron and Jephton could still have had awesome power before the splice was lost. Jephton looks like he'd be mid 20s, but there is plenty of evidence to believe Ganeron could have been 30+ easily, and Haerta assumedly well beyond that given she used disjunction and familicide.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Thinking about it, it really wasn't too "ultimate". "ultimate" implies that no other arcane power can overcome it; however, Xykon's dispelling DID overcome it, meaning that it was vulnerable to other arcane power, and hence, not "ultimate".

The IFCC never promised V ultimate power. They merely promised a higher level of power.

And that power is still bound largely by the rules - saves, spells per round etc.

And they certainly never said V's new powers would be untouchable by other magic. Because it was still grounded in the OotS-verse magical rules, and V still has a frail body and messed up mind.


Maybe i'm nitpicking, but it seems somewhat like V's power was a bit of a gip. Being beaten with a rock instead of a spell is a nice loophole since thats a different sort of threat than arcane, but Xykon's magic itself, by prophesy, shouldn't have been able to do so.

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?

Depends on how one defines the power V was getting and whether the IFCC soul-splice was the fulfillment of the prophesy or not.

And ultimately the power didn't make V invulnerable to getting smacked by a large enough rock. Maybe if he had asked for ultimate immortality or the powers of Superman...

But the fact remains V got the power boost promised by the IFCC and nothing more. Just because he didn't use it effectively doesn't lessen it.

[Y'nokhs]

Hmm...
but then...
All three fiends are color-coded in phrases, eye color, and summoning rays (in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). The one with yellow color, Lee, is CE tanar'ri (commanding succubus), so that leaves LE devil and NE daemon.
But if one with purple color (that summons Haerta, who is assumed NE in logic above) is not LE but NE (daemon), despite it's him defining contract's terms (which is more LE in purpose and style), then V is screwed... as it makes sense for daemon, unlike devil, to directly lie and trick poor V.

The Orange seems to be using all the marketing phrases and sucking up, making him (?) seem lawful, while the Purple seems to deal in pure facts, being neutral, and the yellow uses fancier phrasing and colloquialisms, as well as suggesting the crazy alternate plan, and uses terms like "Relax" and "Passe," making him seem more chaotic. The soul's personalities' back this up. Alternately, they could all be NE, and there is no way to distinguish which race each is. Sabine being part of the IFCC explains some of the lawful tendencies we've seen in her, and she may as well be working for the Baatzeu as the Tanar'ri. Just my theories

[Kish]

Sabine being part of the IFCC explains some of the lawful tendencies we've seen in her, and she may as well be working for the Baatzeu as the Tanar'ri.
We know she works under Director Lee, the one with the LE-joke in his name.

[Y'nokhs]

We know she works under Director Lee, the one with the LE-joke in his name.

But Lee is also the one who summoned Jepthon - easily the chaotic soul. Being that this is the IFCC, it wouldn't surprise me if Lee was a Chaotic Evil Devil, with Sabine as his Lawful Evil Succubus underling, Nero was a Lawful Evil Yugoloth (thus his legal speak) and Cedric a Neutral Evil Demon, - their names being an indicator to their species' typical alignment instead of their personal ones (did their momma fiends know they would be changing alignments when they were named:smallwink:) - after all this is a coalition of maverick fiends, so alignment deviation would not be that out of place.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Wait, jumping in here... they said imaginings of previous customers or something like that, right?

Wasn't V their first though? For the Soul Splice definitely, but in anything that could have given them such data? Maybe.

[mlsq42]

Wait, so Giant goes to the trouble of giving each character a name starting with an alignment (LEe, NEro and CEdric) and then mixes them up? Gahuh?

[Kornaki]

Wait, jumping in here... they said imaginings of previous customers or something like that, right?

Wasn't V their first though? For the Soul Splice definitely, but in anything that could have given them such data? Maybe.

Standard lawyer boilerplate. Customers could include anyone who they've cut deals with on an individual basis, or could be based on a market survey and isn't specifically referring to their customers

[Mawhrin Skel]

Most likely the fiends are just (gasp!) liars.

In the eighth panel of #640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) the fiends admitted to bending the truth of what they said to V.

They also did in #637 about watching V. Granted, their misleading in either case wasn't a part of the deal.

[Optimystik]

Wait, so Giant goes to the trouble of giving each character a name starting with an alignment (LEe, NEro and CEdric) and then mixes them up? Gahuh?

"Gahuh" is usually the reaction he likes to get from us.

In any case, I see no reason why Lee couldn't be the Lawful one and still be in charge of Jephthon and Sabine. Number one, the whole point of the IFCC is to get the archfiends working outside their regular alignment; number two, Sabine tends to like the lawful types (Nale, Miko, Roy etc.)

[dish]

I've never been completely satisfied that the prophecy was fulfilled for lots of little nit-picky reasons which add up to a general feeling of discontent.

I won't list them all, cos we probably don't need to go through it all again, but the limitations of the soul-splice - including it's limited duration and inability to duplicate divine magic, always argued against 'complete and total ultimate arcane power'.

[theinsulabot]

you werent paying attention, A, with a little more planning, V could of pulled it of anyways, (hell another empowered sunburst would of done the job, 2 at most) but V lost a HUGE amount of power when hearta ditched. from the way the splice worked, it was 3 casters, and V could cherry pick spells from each one, for his rounds. haerta, as the most powerful, would of been the goto choice for magic, would NOT of lost her epic spells in the energy drain, (hell maybe not even after the maximized one) wouldn't of evidently had problems getting quickened spells off half way through the fight.

someone said the slice was weakened by 33% i think thats being generous. with the way it worked, losing the most powerful caster cut it to under 50% effectiveness and had V been on his game he STILL could of dropped X in 2 or 3 rounds by chaining together empowered sunbursts.

weakened by 50% or more and you still have the power to drop the BBeG, alone, in 2 or 3 rounds, and there really wouldn't of been **** all nothing all he could do about it other then maybe teleport off with his tail between his legs? you know what, if someone wants to describe that as "ultimate arcane power" i would be willing to agree with that man


another note on haerta, she might of been able to pull off an empowered, maximized sunburst and actually ONE SHOT xykon. i don't know if he would of been able to make his saving throw against the likes of her, and that would be all she wrote, wouldn't it?

[Silverraptor]

"Gahuh" is usually the reaction he likes to get from us.

In any case, I see no reason why Lee couldn't be the Lawful one and still be in charge of Jephthon and Sabine. Number one, the whole point of the IFCC is to get the archfiends working outside their regular alignment; number two, Sabine tends to like the lawful types (Nale, Miko, Roy etc.)

Why do you always have to come up with interesting points that I will agree with?! WHY!?!?:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Why do you always have to come up with interesting points that I will agree with?! WHY!?!?:smallbiggrin:

Great minds... :smallwink:

[pendell]

People keep using the phrase "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

The prophecy did not include the phrase "complete and total". Only the words "ultimate" and "arcane".

One way to interpret that is "the highest level V will ever reach".

For a short time V wielded the power of three Epic spellcasters from his banned schools and could cast spontaneously.

So for a short time there existed in OOTSverse a caster who could cast Epic from any spell school. V is unlikely to obtain this ability ever again, so this is indeed hir ultimate arcane power level. It's certainly more powerful than Xykon, who was a straight build.

Not only that, but if something happens to prevent the IFC from doing this again, no other caster in the history of the world will be able to achieve this. So V will have been the most powerful -- "ultimate" -- arcane caster to ever exist in OOTS verse, from its creation as World 2.0 to its end.

For thirty minutes.

It must be said V tried very hard to make as much use of hir power as possible, but the fact is V confused 'ultimate arcane power' with god mode, and is now suffering the consequences of hubris.

Respectfully,

Brian P...

[Lkctgo]

Thinking about it, it really wasn't too "ultimate". "ultimate" implies that no other arcane power can overcome it; however, Xykon's dispelling DID overcome it, meaning that it was vulnerable to other arcane power, and hence, not "ultimate".




Maybe i'm nitpicking, but it seems somewhat like V's power was a bit of a gip. Being beaten with a rock instead of a spell is a nice loophole since thats a different sort of threat than arcane, but Xykon's magic itself, by prophesy, shouldn't have been able to do so.

Perhaps this is a red herring to V's prophesy?

I agree. By the way, not to sound nit-picky, but you spelled prophecy wrongly.

[dish]

People keep using the phrase "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

The prophecy did not include the phrase "complete and total". Only the words "ultimate" and "arcane".

One way to interpret that is "the highest level V will ever reach".

...

No.

If we're being completely accurate about it, the prophecy consisted only of the words, "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)."

The question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), however, did contain the words 'complete' and 'total'.

[FoE]

The fiends promised V 'complete and total arcane power', but it was contingent on V's ability to hold on to the Soul Splices through sheer willpower. They never said it would be easy.

She incorrectly used that power and then allowed it to be lost. It's not the fiends who let down V; she let down herself.

[Dagren]

The fiends promised V 'complete and total arcane power', but it was contingent on V's ability to hold on to the Soul Splices through sheer willpower. They never said it would be easy.When did the fiends promise V "complete and total arcane power"?

[Dr. Cthulwho]

People keep using the phrase "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

The prophecy did not include the phrase "complete and total". Only the words "ultimate" and "arcane".

How so? V asked the Oracle:

:vaarsuvius: - How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?

The Oracle's prophesy to that question was "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons".

So "complete and total ultimate arcane power" would seem rather relevant to the prophesy.


The fiends promised V 'complete and total arcane power', but it was contingent on V's ability to hold on to the Soul Splices through sheer willpower. They never said it would be easy.

They don't promise that. The closest they come to defining the power V is getting is saying things like:

"Magical power beyond your wildest imaginings*" (*with the clause it is based typical wild imaginings).

And "The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived".

[Silverraptor]

Great minds... :smallwink:

I'll agree with that!:smallbiggrin:(Again)

[pendell]

How so? V asked the Oracle:

:vaarsuvius: - How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?

The Oracle's prophesy to that question was "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons".

So "complete and total ultimate arcane power" would seem rather relevant to the prophesy.


I re-read and you're right and I was wrong; those are V's exact words.

I still believe the prophecy has been fulfilled, in the sense that V had access to all arcane spell schools and every spell in those schools. I think that's a reasonable fulfilmment
of 'complete and total' power. 'Ultimate' power would be because this is the highest level of power V will ever reach. Perhaps the highest level of power ANY mortal spellcaster will ever achieve.

Respectfully,

Brian P.