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CaptainCommando
2009-05-15, 11:08 PM
Hi. I'm Johnny Tek - self-proclaimed Defender of Earth.

I am currently setting up a new professional game master business. I'm going to be offering a replacement option for my clients that order DnD 4e sessions and don't like dying in the game.

I want to save some time on this (lots of work to do) so if you would throw your ideas and feedback at this, it would be much appreciated.

Here's the replacement option (optional):

Heroic Death Throes
A character is allowed an unlimited number of death saving throws and does not die unless the circumstances absolutely prevent survival (jumping into lava, getting sliced in half, etc.). When a character makes a death saving throw and fails, a roll on the following list must be made.

When you are reduced to 0 hit points or less, you remain conscious but can not take any actions except free actions.

When you stabilize, you return to 0 hit points but can only perform a single action per turn until your hit points become 1 or more. If you take damage again, you are dying again until you stabilize.

Roll a dX when you've failed a death saving throw.

1. You keep your eyes open for the enemy's attack, warning your comrade in the nick of time. You can give an ally a +2 bonus to all defenses against an attack as an immediate interrupt until the start of your next turn.
2. You pray to your deity for aid. You regain 1 healing surge if you have no healing surges left.
3. You call out to encourage your allies to stand their ground. Your allies regain hit points equal to your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
4. You call to your allies for help. All allies within 5 squares can shift 1 square towards you.

I need more. I want at least 20 for the final list. If you can help me get this done faster, it would be much appreciated.

CaptainCommando
2009-05-16, 01:39 PM
It was suggested that "wounds" be added to this alternative.

So feel free to suggest bad effects as well as good ones.

tribble
2009-05-16, 02:55 PM
I would say make this an epic feat, actually. it just seems incredibly overpowered. the really bad thing here is that if this applies to magic-users of any kind it basically makes them invincible, at higher levels one spell can be all you need.

just my 2cents worth.

CaptainCommando
2009-05-16, 06:27 PM
I would say make this an epic feat, actually. it just seems incredibly overpowered. the really bad thing here is that if this applies to magic-users of any kind it basically makes them invincible, at higher levels one spell can be all you need.

just my 2cents worth.

This is not a feat.

This is an optional replacement for death rules, if players want to continue playing with their characters instead of switching characters.

Backup characters would be available if clients choose games with standard death.

rokar4life
2009-05-17, 02:46 AM
he's saying that you SHOULD make it a feat

Reluctance
2009-05-17, 04:26 AM
For game balance purposes, it's way more powerful than a feat. As an optional rule for groups that don't want any character death at all, I'd personally suggest dropping the level for the Raise Dead ritual, but the list idea does keep players in the game at all times.

For said list I'd be interested in seeing one "heroic effort" option that allows a full round's worth of actions, or at least a standard. Especially options like "keep your eyes open" should be a DC 10 check similar to aid another, and possibly an equivalent to give an ally a bonus to a single attack roll/distract an enemy and hit its defenses vs. one attack. If this ends up as a D20 roll, let me strongly suggest adding five "does nothing useful"s to the list; sub-0 HP is not a good place to be, the guy does get to roll dice at least twice a round, and I think a slightly under 1/8 chance of wasting a round is a fair penalty for what should amount to death.

Totally Guy
2009-05-17, 05:01 AM
It is my opinion that you've found a fundamental flaw in the Professional DM concept. We fans for D&D are an unpleaseable lot. When things stay the same we'll bitch about it, when things change we bitch about that and when someone talks about how the game is meant to be played that person will find major disagreements. A brief example of this would be when you first suggested your idea for professional game mastering.

What I believe you are trying to acomplish is a level of protection so that your business won't be harmed by bad word of mouth when eventually you end up killing one of your clients. I'm a professional in the construction industry and we try very hard not to kill our clients so I can see why you'd want them to have a level of protection.

Unfortunately your proposal removes the risk and tension of your adventures. Will your clients know about this rule beforehand and thus lower this tension throughout? Or will you write it into the narrative as an unexpected shine of good fortune which could affect your integrity as a fair arbiter of rules?

I think that this move is an error with the best of intentions. The existing 4E death rules have already been accused of being too lenient.

Out of interest which of the following would you prefer :
A) A few clients that use you for an ongoing game?
B) Many occasional clients for one off sessions?
Your rule impact would probably be detrimental in A.
It may be beneficial in B but you'd need to explain that it's a simplification to allow value for money as it takes time to make a character and also learn how to use a new set of powers efficiently.

Lastly, fan moaning is not always a bad thing. D&D still seems to sell. Order of the Stick seems to attact loads of moaning but to pander to those that are vocal about it can isolate the silent majority.

CaptainCommando
2009-05-17, 01:13 PM
Unfortunately your proposal removes the risk and tension of your adventures. Will your clients know about this rule beforehand and thus lower this tension throughout? Or will you write it into the narrative as an unexpected shine of good fortune which could affect your integrity as a fair arbiter of rules?


I said it would be an OPTION. It's something the clients can decide before the game begins.

The choice will either be this or backup characters in case of death. A third option may be added later.

Fortunately, my writing and game design moves focus away from whether or not you die in combat towards telling an awesome story and solving problems as a team.

My business provides mainly 1-shot adventures.

LotharBot
2009-05-18, 12:06 PM
It seems like your goal is to allow a character who is on the ground dying to continue playing. After all, it's no fun to have to sit out because your character doesn't get actions (because they're dying) and it's no fun to lose the character you'd worked so hard to make. But it's also not very fun to just roll a d20 and take the action the table tells you to take. You're playing a game, and games are all about making decisions; it's boring to have the dice make your decisions for you.

I would propose, when a character is dying, they can attempt one of the following on their turn (many of these are straight from your list, or slightly modified):

- Call out for help. Grant one ally a move action which they must use to end their turn closer to you or to directly aid you. (They can shift, walk, run, fly, etc. OR they can use a healing power that takes a move or minor action.)
- Call out a warning. Once during the upcoming round, you may grant an ally a +2 to defenses against a single attack as an immediate interrupt.
- Call out an inspiration. Grant a single ally a +1 power bonus to their next attack roll.
- Call for vengeance. Grant all allies a +1 power bonus to attack the enemy who incapacitated you, until the start of your next turn.
- Crawl one square (no Opportunity Attacks).
- Say a prayer. Regain one healing surge if you don't have any left.
- Feebly strike at an adjacent enemy. Roll a melee basic attack roll (accounting for the penalty for prone); on a hit, deal 1W damage (don't add strength modifier.)
- Trip an adjacent enemy. Roll a melee basic attack roll vs reflex; on a hit, knock the enemy prone.

Fill out the list with other options as you come up with them.

I think this would be a lot more fun than "roll a d20 and do what the table tells you to do" because it allows the players to decide what their character is about and what they'd be struggling for as they lay incapacitated on the ground. Would my character, lying on the ground, be looking out for herself or for others? Would my character be protecting allies, inspiring them, or continuing the fight?

In this case, death saving throws are meaningless unless you roll a natural 20 (and therefore spend a surge and get back up). Instead of calling them "death saving throws", why not call it a "revival roll" or something like that?

So, the end result is something like this:

When you drop to 0 hp or fewer, you are incapacitated and barely conscious. You fall prone, can't flank, grant combat advantage, and can be the target of a coup de grace (you're helpless). You cannot take actions, except for those listed above, one per turn. At the end of your turn, roll a d20; on a natural 20, you can spend a healing surge and regain hitpoints (starting at zero).

CaptainCommando
2009-05-20, 03:25 AM
I think this would be a lot more fun than "roll a d20 and do what the table tells you to do" because it allows the players to decide what their character is about and what they'd be struggling for as they lay incapacitated on the ground. Would my character, lying on the ground, be looking out for herself or for others? Would my character be protecting allies, inspiring them, or continuing the fight?

In this case, death saving throws are meaningless unless you roll a natural 20 (and therefore spend a surge and get back up). Instead of calling them "death saving throws", why not call it a "revival roll" or something like that?

So, the end result is something like this:

When you drop to 0 hp or fewer, you are incapacitated and barely conscious. You fall prone, can't flank, grant combat advantage, and can be the target of a coup de grace (you're helpless). You cannot take actions, except for those listed above, one per turn. At the end of your turn, roll a d20; on a natural 20, you can spend a healing surge and regain hitpoints (starting at zero).

Perhaps then choosing something from the list but making the saving throw to do it? Perhaps allowing one action with a successful saving throw?

Perhaps the randomness could instead be applied to what happens when you take damage while "disabled". Getting coup de graced instead makes you roll toward the deeper end of a table of bad effects. You twist just in time to prevent having your chest impaled by the enemy's spear but it gets your arm or leg...

CaptainCommando
2009-05-22, 09:44 PM
Another idea came to me as an alternative to death.

Spirit Actions - actions one can take as a dead ghost

This way one can still contribute to the party's success until resurrection is available.

Meek
2009-05-22, 10:56 PM
Another idea came to me as an alternative to death.

Spirit Actions - actions one can take as a dead ghost

This way one can still contribute to the party's success until resurrection is available.

I like the idea. Some thoughts:

•Actions from the DMG Page 42 should be your primary means of affecting the world. Knock over braziers on enemies, pull out rugs from under them, use your environment creatively. Levitate a jar and smash it in someone's face. Etc. No class powers or features, but ghostly powers like that.

•Can Aid Another better, as a guardian ghost. Maybe add a higher bonus? Or do it as a Minor Action? Unsure.

•Enemies can't kill you, you're dead. However, if you get caught in any area or close attacks of theirs, you disperse (save ends), whether the enemy manages to hit you or not. This prevents you from doing the aforementioned ghostly butt-kicking until you save.

However, no Phasing, as that would make it too easy for you to scout and clean up dungeons by moving through walls and other hard obstacles. You also still abide by skill rules, so you could make ghostly wooshing noise if you suck at Stealth, and so on. You also can't fly.

Ouranos
2009-05-22, 11:06 PM
Dunno if they made a 4e update for it, but I'm sure you could Homebrew an update for Ghostwalk. "Oh, you died? Guess what, now you can be a ghost and keep playing with the group"

LotharBot
2009-05-23, 06:46 PM
Perhaps then choosing something from the list but making the saving throw to do it? Perhaps allowing one action with a successful saving throw?

Perhaps, if the saving throw is made at the start of the turn. A failed save means no actions whatsoever, while a successful save means you can do something from the list, and a natural 20 means you can spend a surge and take a normal turn (but are currently prone.) I like this -- it makes death saving throws matter, but still leaves decisions on character behavior in the hands of the player.


Perhaps the randomness could instead be applied to what happens when you take damage while "disabled".

I don't see why "randomness" is necessary, useful, or desirable. In general, the dice tell us about success or failure, or degree of success; rolling on a table for random status effects isn't really a fun game mechanic for a heroic fantasy game like D&D 4e.


Spirit Actions - actions one can take as a dead ghost

Perhaps, though I think resurrection in 4e is fairly easy to come by... and I'd definitely recommend not making dead allies more powerful than disabled ones. That's just kinda lame.

CaptainCommando
2009-05-25, 02:10 AM
Hmm...what if both of the following were implemented...

a. you can choose one of the special actions regardless of the saving throw result
b. if killed, you get to perform actions as a ghost that can aid or disrupt or in some cases attack or "possess"

You retain the same amount of ability to affect the game but with a dfferent flavor until you're resurrected or the adventure concludes.

Communication as a ghost should be a bit more difficult but not impossible.