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unosarta
2009-05-16, 07:00 PM
just the other day, I was looking over the assassin prestige class, and I looked at rogue to check for requirements. and when I looked and compared the assassin sneak attack progression for both classes, I noticed that if you only go partway into the class, you can get more sneak attack damage than if you went pure one way or the other [such as rogue5/assassin5's 6d6 rather than a pure rogue10's 5d6].

does anyone know any other full sneak attack progression besides Invisible Blade, Assassin, and Slayer of Domiel? I want to see how far this precision damage can take me.

thanks for any help.

Faleldir
2009-05-16, 07:11 PM
One level of Ronin gives you 1d6 Sneak Attack for one feat and a few lines of backstory.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 07:17 PM
One level of Ronin gives you 1d6 Sneak Attack for one feat and a few lines of backstory.

oh! i forgot about all of the classes that give you not full SA progression, but +1d6 at first level. thank you!

UserClone
2009-05-16, 07:18 PM
A level of Spellthief. Also, the Craven feat gives you +CL to your sneak attack damage.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 07:21 PM
A level of Spellthief. Also, the Craven feat gives you +CL to your sneak attack damage.

so now, there is 1 level of Spellthief, 1 level of Ronin, 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer. anyone know any else?

EDIT: what book is Craven from?

lsfreak
2009-05-16, 07:34 PM
Two-level dip in swordsage at some point; I like 10th and 11th level myself if you can hold off that long. Island of blades, Shadow Blade feat, a couple shadow hand manuevers to let you sneak attack more often, a couple desert wind to tack on more damage for a round. And it nets you +2d6 sneak attack from Assassin's Stance and a good chunk of extra damage from Shadow Blade. Note that 2 feats can get you Assassin's Stance (at level 10), but I'd rather have the extra sneak attack-related stuff too.

Craven is from Champions of Ruin (Faerun). There's also a feat in BoED that boosts your sneak attack to d8's, and Bracers of Murder from Drow of the Underdark that let you reroll all 1's on sneak attack. The bracers also gives a +2 bonus on attack and damage against flat-footed targets, and sword of subtlety (DMG) gives +4atk/dmg on all sneak attacks.

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-16, 07:37 PM
You can also take 5 levels of Thug Variant fighter from unearthed arcana for another 3 SA dice and +5 BAB.

You could also throw in ninja levels, although that's sudden strike, not sneak attack. The dice will stack.

While you're throwing on sudden strike, you may as well grab 3-5 levels in Dread Commando for speedy, stealthy movement in full armor and an intiative bonus.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 07:44 PM
Two-level dip in swordsage at some point; I like 10th and 11th level myself if you can hold off that long. Island of blades, Shadow Blade feat, a couple shadow hand manuevers to let you sneak attack more often, a couple desert wind to tack on more damage for a round. And it nets you +2d6 sneak attack from Assassin's Stance and a good chunk of extra damage from Shadow Blade. Note that 2 feats can get you Assassin's Stance (at level 10), but I'd rather have the extra sneak attack-related stuff too.
hey, there is another idea. swordsage isn't a bad idea, especially with Assassins stance.


Craven is from Champions of Ruin (Faerun). There's also a feat in BoED that boosts your sneak attack to d8's, and Bracers of Murder from Drow of the Underdark that let you reroll all 1's on sneak attack. The bracers also gives a +2 bonus on attack and damage against flat-footed targets, and sword of subtlety (DMG) gives +4atk/dmg on all sneak attacks.

i believe that the feat in BoED only works on evil foes, and i would probably do that if i were doing rogue/ronin/SoD/NightsongEnforcer/Spellthief/Swordsage, since SoD requires Exalted Feats anyway, and teh other option uses Assassin, with a non-good requirement.

by the way, explaining this backstory to a DM might not be such a fun thing.

and as a final note, this is only theoretical, I probably wont have the chance to play 3.5 for a while, but if anyone wants to use these ideas, go ahead.

Glyde
2009-05-16, 07:47 PM
Out of curiosity, where is Ronin from?

dspeyer
2009-05-16, 07:48 PM
Nightsong enforcer. Ninja if sudden strike counts.

Also the Assassin's Stance from ToB. You don't need swordsage -- you can take it as a feat.

There's probably a whole bunch of others. I wonder if the requirements of the prestige classes can all be met in one build without non-sa classes.

dspeyer
2009-05-16, 07:49 PM
Appropriately enough, I have been very ninjad.

ishi
2009-05-16, 07:49 PM
Out of curiosity, where is Ronin from?

Complete Warrior, I think.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 07:51 PM
You can also take 5 levels of Thug Variant fighter from unearthed arcana for another 3 SA dice and +5 BAB.
anther good idea.


You could also throw in ninja levels, although that's sudden strike, not sneak attack. The dice will stack.
i had thought about doing this when i first got the idea, but Sudden Strike is horrible compared to Sneak Attack in almost every way. no, wait, every way. period.


While you're throwing on sudden strike, you may as well grab 3-5 levels in Dread Commando for speedy, stealthy movement in full armor and an intiative bonus.
again, look back to comment on sudden strike. this is probably only feasible with a high wealth campaign [for invisibility items, and such], or a gestalt game. i actually do like the dread commando, but if you look at the mechanics and flavor, it is mostly about solo spying, not actual party combat.

but again, this is only a theoretical exercise, and if anyone wants to try to play ninja/dread commando/rogue/Ronin/NE/SoD [or assassin]/Spellthief/Thug Variant Fighter/any other SA class I havent mentioned go right ahead.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:14 PM
well, if there aren't anymore non-dragon magazine classes that have SA, let the building begin:

so its Rogu5/Nightsong Enforcer1/Assassin 1[i dont want to deal with exalted stuff right now]/Ronin1/Thug Variant5/Swordsage2/Invisible Blade 5 [could go invisible blade4/ST1, but i want more feints. if anyone finds another SA class, this will be solved]

grand total 14d6 SA with Assassin's Stance.

now, there are several ways you can take this, but right now i want to go with the most damage possible. so that would be TWF.

unfortunately, with all of this Partial BAB classes, the attack this will get will probably be few without TWF.

build Progression will likely go like this:

1. Rog1
2. Rog2
3. Rog3
4. Rog4
5. Rog5
6. Rog5/Assassin1
7. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug1
8. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug2
9. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3
10. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage1
11. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2
12. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1
13. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade1
14. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade2
15. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade3
16. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade4
17. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5
18. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1
19. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug4/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1
20. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug5/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1

EDIT: feats

H:EWP(bastard Sword)
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Point Blank Shot
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: WF [Daggers]
12: Far Shot
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18: Improved Initiative

BAB= 3+5+0+1+5+1+1 [+16 exactly, whew]

with all TWF thats 6 attacks a round, without equipment, or spells or anything.

(3.5*15)+1=53.5
53.5*6=321 damage on average.
16*6= 96 minimum, [(6*15)+1]*6=546 maximum.

and some damage from maneuvers. thoughts?

Faleldir
2009-05-16, 08:28 PM
Don't forget EWP: bastard sword!
(I assume you'll be a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, so it still fits.)

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:28 PM
Don't forget EWP: bastard sword!
(I assume you'll be a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, so it still fits.)

OH! good point, i forgot all about that.

Edit:
HA! its funny that you need EWP (Bastard Sword), when in reality, you will never use one, instead probably using Dual daggers or Kukri.

Faleldir
2009-05-16, 08:30 PM
You'll also want a Deadly Precision weapon (Magic Item Compendium, p. 32, +1 bonus) if you're really optimizing.

EDIT: No, I'm sure you are optimizing. I meant to say "if you absolutely want to go all the way and nothing is overkill".
And forget about the barbed dagger, it's only +2 damage. My memory is not perfect.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:33 PM
You'll also want a Deadly Precision weapon (Magic Item Compendium, p. 32, +1 bonus) if you're really optimizing.

meh, i didnt put Magic Items in. if someone wants to try putting together a list of magic items for this build, go ahead.

EDIT: also, your statement seems to say that this build isnt really optimized. i challenge you to make a build with more SA :smalltongue:

lsfreak
2009-05-16, 08:35 PM
Craven is a must, straight +20 on every sneak attack. Double swords of subtlety, if I'm not mistaken, will be better than bastard swords, adding an extra 4 damage onto every sneak attack (I suppose you could argue for bastard swords of subtlety, but that's a bit silly).

With BAB, a 12Dex modifier (18 + tome + item + 5 ranks), +5 shadow hand swords of subtlety, the total attack routine should be roughly 37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22, if I did my math right. I did not do my math right. 40/40/40/38/etc/etc/etc.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-16, 08:37 PM
1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

RTGoodman
2009-05-16, 08:38 PM
If you're looking for a Good-aligned character (and you probably are if you're including BoED exalted stuff), check out the Avenger PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) from the Wizards website. Yeah, it's an April Fool's Day article that just changed the Alignment pre-req of the Assassin, but it's still legal.

Also, taking a look at the famous Lists of Stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) source from the WotC boards, I think you could probably make something like [Rogue 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 3/Avenger 1/Ronin 1/Slayer of Domiel 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Swordsage 2/Avenging Executioner 1/Guild Thief (FRCS) 1] for 13d6 Sneak Attack at ECL 14.

Not sure on the pre-reqs, though, but I THINK it works out. Of course, without Fractional BAB your gonna suck, but still...


EDIT: Screw a bastard sword - use a greatsword or TWF with shortswords. Think of all those d6s!

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:42 PM
Craven is a must, straight +20 on every sneak attack. Double swords of subtlety, if I'm not mistaken, will be better than bastard swords, adding an extra 4 damage onto every sneak attack (I suppose you could argue for bastard swords of subtlety, but that's a bit silly).
actually, what i said was, it was funny because you would never use the bastard swords, because IB's SA needs daggers/kukris/Punching Daggers. if you were allowed Flaws, you could get Craven, and i would highly recommend it, however, to fit into [admitedly wonky] requisites for IB, Ronin, and NE, you just wouldnt have enough feats for TWF too. i have no idea where the hell the Point blank shot and far shot part of IB's requirements came from. maybe Wizards is just mean to people trying to optimize SA :smalltongue:


With BAB, a 12Dex modifier (18 + tome + item + 5 ranks), +5 shadow hand swords of subtlety, the total attack routine should be roughly 37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22, if I did my math right.

i am not sure if those Shadow hand swords would work, because to actually SA with IB, you need to be wielding daggers.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:43 PM
1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

i did notice that, i just thought someone mixed up names and such. that is why i didnt put in the bonus feats.

UserClone
2009-05-16, 08:48 PM
1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

You're half right. UA actually recommends combining the two. Which would be AWESOME.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:48 PM
If you're looking for a Good-aligned character (and you probably are if you're including BoED exalted stuff), check out the Avenger PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) from the Wizards website. Yeah, it's an April Fool's Day article that just changed the Alignment pre-req of the Assassin, but it's still legal.
Haha! that was pretty funny. but actually, that is almost exactly like Slayers of Domiel, a PrC good assassin Type. the class is probably part of an alternate build, and adding in the "Avenger" wouldnt really change much about the SA dice.


Also, taking a look at the famous Lists of Stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) source from the WotC boards, I think you could probably make something like [Rogue 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 3/Avenger 1/Ronin 1/Slayer of Domiel 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Swordsage 2/Avenging Executioner 1/Guild Thief (FRCS) 1] for 13d6 Sneak Attack at ECL 14.
ah, but you see, in this build, i havent used any campaign sources, and as such is far more likely to be able to be played. also, this build has more BAB that the other one, and Avenging Excecutioner and Slayers of Domiel cannot be in the same build at the same time. check out the prerequisites.

Not sure on the pre-reqs, though, but I THINK it works out. Of course, without Fractional BAB your gonna suck, but still...


EDIT: Screw a bastard sword - use a greatsword or TWF with shortswords. Think of all those d6s![/QUOTE]

lsfreak
2009-05-16, 08:48 PM
Ah, good point. Forgot about invisible blade's dagger requirement. Could easily argue for a dagger of subtlety; the sword is just a +1 sword with an extra 20.000gp tacked on for the +4atk/dmg on sneak attacks.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:49 PM
You're half right. UA actually recommends combining the two. Which would be AWESOME.

SERIOUSLY!? that would fix the feat problems!

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:50 PM
Ah, good point. Forgot about invisible blade's dagger requirement. Could easily argue for a dagger of subtlety; the sword is just a +1 sword with an extra 20.000gp tacked on for the +4atk/dmg on sneak attacks.
probably could. if so, that racks up the SA damage quite a bit. as would the [AWESOME!] combination of the two Fighter variants and Craven.

Thurbane
2009-05-16, 08:51 PM
1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.
Not quite:

Simple Variant
Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant described earlier in this chapter.
Gain
Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose
Bonus feats.

Eldariel
2009-05-16, 08:51 PM
Hm, I wonder if it were possible to get 22d6+20; that is, take a new Sneak Attacking class on each level along with Martial Study+Stance: Assassin's Stance and Craven... If counting Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack together, it should be possible, but I don't think there are enough Sneak Attacking base classes to reach the numerous PrCs.

Of course, some spells (Nightstalker Transformation and Sniper's Shot, among others - some Polymorph-forms too, I'm sure) grant you extra Sneak Attack, so it should be possible to temporarily even exceed that on 20. Also, I recall some Vestige (accessible through Improved Binding feat without any levels) granted Xd6 Sneak Attack. If that's the case, that'd add a bit more. I think the theorethical maximum lies around 30d6+20 by level 20.

UserClone
2009-05-16, 08:52 PM
Hell, if you're going to do that, why not make them barbed daggers from Complete Adventurer?

For those not in the know, it's an exotic weapon that counts as a dagger for purposes of feats that specify a weapon. It adds 2 to damage when sneak attacking. This technique requires 5 ranks in Sleight of hand.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 08:58 PM
Hell, if you're going to do that, why not make them barbed daggers from Complete Adventurer?

For those not in the know, it's an exotic weapon that counts as a dagger for purposes of feats that specify a weapon. It adds 2 to damage when sneak attacking. This technique requires 5 ranks in Sleight of hand.

isnt the Shadow hand skill Sleight of Hand? that would make this perfect.

lsfreak
2009-05-16, 08:59 PM
Sorry, I missed you mentioning those before. Barbed daggers of subtlety with Craven adds a flat +26 to every sneak attack.
EDIT: Shadow Hand is Hide, but it's not like there's a lack of skill points around here to stick 5 into SoH :p

unosarta
2009-05-16, 09:03 PM
Hm, I wonder if it were possible to get 22d6+20; that is, take a new Sneak Attacking class on each level along with Martial Study+Stance: Assassin's Stance and Craven... If counting Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack together, it should be possible, but I don't think there are enough Sneak Attacking base classes to reach the numerous PrCs.
yeah, i doubt it. i searched through crystal keep several times, and i checked my own books. its too bad there arent any feats that actually increase the damage from SA besides Craven.


Of course, some spells (Nightstalker Transformation and Sniper's Shot, among others - some Polymorph-forms too, I'm sure) grant you extra Sneak Attack, so it should be possible to temporarily even exceed that on 20. Also, I recall some Vestige (accessible through Improved Binding feat without any levels) granted Xd6 Sneak Attack. If that's the case, that'd add a bit more. I think the theorethical maximum lies around 30d6+20 by level 20.

well, as soon as you add spells to the mix, things get really crazy. for instance, in your polymorph suggestion, you could polymorph into a multiheaded hydra, and get all of those sweet, sweet attacks, and also get several more with the TWF tree. but that doesnt really prove anything. and if you could get a feat that granted Xd6 SA damage, it makes me wonder why every rogue who has ever tried to do melee doesnt have it.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 09:08 PM
Sorry, I missed you mentioning those before. Barbed daggers of subtlety with Craven adds a flat +26 to every sneak attack.
EDIT: Shadow Hand is Hide, but it's not like there's a lack of skill points around here to stick 5 into SoH :p

i guess i havent been up to my ToB reading in a while. true, there are plenty of SP to go around. so, with the new stuff with the whole barbed daggers, i think i had better update the damage as well.

with [(3.5*15)+27]*6 we have 477 damage on average. [15+27]*6 is 252 at the lowest, and [(6*15)+27]*6 is 660 maximum. and more if the weapon is speed, and if it has a bonus.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 09:18 PM
hm, lets see if i can go for the max Precision damage in an attack including ninja.

rogue3/ninja1/assassin1/Nightsong Enforcer1/Ronin1/Variant Fighter5/Spellthief1/Invisible Blade5/Swordsage2

2+1+1+1+1+3+1+3+2= 14. nope.

where in that previous build did they get psionic Rogue?

Eldariel
2009-05-16, 09:28 PM
Psychic Rogue is on Wizards site.

So hmm, you could go:
Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1
Rogue 1
Psychic Rogue 1
Spellthief 1
Ninja 1


to level 5 with 5d6. Then you start stacking PrCs and just try to find as many as you can. Swordsage-levels only save two feats. If trying to maximize SA, finding other levels to replace them that grant actual Sneak Attack are simply better.

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 09:30 PM
Nathrazune Rakshasa gets SA, I believe.

Salt_Crow
2009-05-16, 09:47 PM
Nathrazune Rakshasa gets SA, I believe.

With appropriate LA to go with :( but if you're going gestalt, there's nothing wrong with it either!

Renegade Paladin
2009-05-16, 09:57 PM
meh, i didnt put Magic Items in. if someone wants to try putting together a list of magic items for this build, go ahead.

EDIT: also, your statement seems to say that this build isnt really optimized. i challenge you to make a build with more SA :smalltongue:
Yeah, but how's your BAB doing? :smallamused:

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 10:01 PM
With appropriate LA to go with :( but if you're going gestalt, there's nothing wrong with it either!

It's Ex, I believe, so polymorph away.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 10:02 PM
Yeah, but how's your BAB doing? :smallamused:

+16 :smalltongue:

i posted it a couple of posts ago.

Myrmex
2009-05-16, 10:02 PM
Yeah, but how's your BAB doing? :smallamused:

Irrelevant with wraithstrike, that's how it's doing. Not like we're one of those clumsy plate wearers two handing a large phallus symbol.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 10:03 PM
Psychic Rogue is on Wizards site.

So hmm, you could go:
Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1
Rogue 1
Psychic Rogue 1
Spellthief 1
Ninja 1

this is good. however, i doubt that there are 15 PrCs that grant SA on their first level.


to level 5 with 5d6. Then you start stacking PrCs and just try to find as many as you can. Swordsage-levels only save two feats. If trying to maximize SA, finding other levels to replace them that grant actual Sneak Attack are simply better.

umm, we have in total Avenging Executioner, Assassin, Nightsong Enforcer, Ronin, Invisible Blade, Dread Commando. these are all the prestige classes that grant SA at first level. if you can find any more, i would love to hear them

SurlySeraph
2009-05-16, 10:05 PM
Add the Deadly Precision (MiC) and Assassination (Cityscape) weapon enhancements for another +3d6 SA.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 10:18 PM
Add the Deadly Precision (MiC) and Assassination (Cityscape) weapon enhancements for another +3d6 SA.

not bad.

i love how we have an assassin, using Assassin's Stance, wielding two Assassination Daggers. do you think the point has been made yet:smallbiggrin:?

Dark_Scary
2009-05-16, 10:25 PM
Regarding Thug:

"Bonus Feats

A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level."

This is the only disadvantage to the Fighter, are you saying that the thug variant should be applied with no missing features and only gains?

You can't be a thug unless you have a level 1 bonus feat. SA Fighter has no Bonus feat. Ergo, no Thug SA fighter.

monty
2009-05-16, 10:28 PM
Regarding Thug:

"Bonus Feats

A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level."

This is the only disadvantage to the Fighter, are you saying that the thug variant should be applied with no missing features and only gains?

You can't be a thug unless you have a level 1 bonus feat. SA Fighter has no Bonus feat. Ergo, no Thug SA fighter.

Did you miss the part on the other variant?

This variant can also be combined with the thug variant.
Someone mentioned it earlier.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-16, 11:15 PM
Did you miss the part on the other variant?

Someone mentioned it earlier.

No. I didn't it's just not possible.

If you have a Druid Variant that gives up it's animal companion, you can't use that with a different Druid Variant that also gives up your animal companion.

You can't have a Shapeshift Druid with a Familiar.

Likewise, you can't give up your bonus feat progression for sneak attack, and then give up the level 1 bonus feat you don't have for 4+int skills.

monty
2009-05-16, 11:23 PM
No. I didn't it's just not possible.

/facepalm

It specifically says so. Why is this so difficult?

JackMage666
2009-05-16, 11:32 PM
No. I didn't it's just not possible.

If you have a Druid Variant that gives up it's animal companion, you can't use that with a different Druid Variant that also gives up your animal companion.

You can't have a Shapeshift Druid with a Familiar.

Likewise, you can't give up your bonus feat progression for sneak attack, and then give up the level 1 bonus feat you don't have for 4+int skills.

I'd love to see a DM look at the variants and say

"So, you can either give up your Bonus Feats and get the same sneak attack as a rogue... But not any other abilities, you're stuck with your crappy skill points. You're like a hardy rogue, kinda. Only not sneaky. On the other hand, you can give up your armor and some HP, and get some extra skills! And lots of bonus feats still... Combine the two? No way! You'll be like a slightly worse-off rogue! That'd be sooo broken."

Really, the only thing that puts you over a rogue in those variants is a higher BAB. The rogue has 4 more skill points (and typically a higher Int as well), and a much better skill list, as well as all the rogue special abilities. Sure you'd make a good two-weapon fighting rogue, but I'd still give it to a real rogue for playability.

unosarta
2009-05-16, 11:35 PM
so, to reflect the new configuration of classes, i have decided to try my hand at a new build.

Since we definitely cannot find 20 classes with SA in the first level, i will choose which classes to progress based on class abilities.

rogue3/ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Thug+SA variant Fighter4/Spellthief1/Dread Commando1/Avenging Executioner1/Assassin1/Nightsong Enforcer1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5

1. Rogue1

2. Rogue2

3. Rogue3

4. Rogue3/Ninja1

5. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1

6. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter1

7. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter2

8. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter3

9. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4

10. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1

11. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1

12. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1

13. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1

14. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1

15. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1

16. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade1

17. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade2

18. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade3

19. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade4

20. Rogue3/Ninja1/Psi-Rogue1/Fighter4/SpellThief1/DC1/Assassin1/NE1/AE1/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5

FEATS:
H: Martial Maneuver [Clinging Shadow Strike]
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Improved Initiative
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
[6]B: Point Blank Shot
[7]B: Far shot
9: Dodge
[9]B: Craven
12: Weapon Focus [Daggers]
15: Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Bastard Sword]
18: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

if flaws are allowed, get a flaw at level 1 for Martial Maneuver , and then put Two Weapon Fighting in your human slot. get Martial Stance at level 6, and PBS at level 1.

SA= 14 [GAH!], but its 16d6 with Assassins stance. 19d6 with assassination daggers. +20 with craven.

[(3.5*20)+27]*6 is 582 on average. [20+27]*6 is 282 at the lowest. 120*6 is 720 at the maximum.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-16, 11:44 PM
I recommend the Iaijutsu Focus skill. Getting all those extra dice of damage would be niiiiice. Either a gnomish quickrazor, or Quick Draw. Arrows work too, which would be much cheaper in the long run (since they're enhanced as projectiles); however, you take a nonproficiency penalty to your attacks (which could possibly be fixed with a feat). Oooh...what about a raptor arrow or two?

Also, what about the Greater Psionic Weapon feat?

Curmudgeon
2009-05-16, 11:56 PM
You seem to be focusing on getting more d6s. This misses out on the fact that Craven's bonus gets multiplied on critical sneak attacks. A keen rapier or kukri (15-20 threat range) will give you an extra +20 damage (equivalent of 5.7 d6s) on every critical.

What's that feat (/class ability?) that lets you automatically confirm critical threats?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-17, 12:01 AM
One thing to make this build work better-Aptitude(ToB). Now you can wield whatever weapon you want, and have it work with Invisible Blade and similar. Should allow some things to stack.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:02 AM
You seem to be focusing on getting more d6s. This misses out on the fact that Craven's bonus gets multiplied on critical sneak attacks. A keen rapier or kukri (15-20 threat range) will give you an extra +20 damage (equivalent of 5.7 d6s) on every critical.
dang it! i was just reading an article about why keen enhancements not stacking with the improved critical feat made Criticals not very important in D&D. i cant remember the article. whatever the reason, this is about more SA, but that does not prevent you from putting Keen on your Kukris or daggers.


What's that feat (/class ability?) that lets you automatically confirm critical threats?
i am not sure there is one.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:04 AM
One thing to make this build work better-Aptitude(ToB). Now you can wield whatever weapon you want, and have it work with Invisible Blade and similar. Should allow some things to stack.

Aptitude? where? i am looking at the feat section right now, and i cant find it.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-17, 12:06 AM
It specifically says so. Why is this so difficult?

It doesn't matter if it specifically says, "You can take this variant along with Druid."

You are still just a level 1 Fighter with 1d6 SA and 2+Int skill points.

You don't magically gain Druid casting an AC and Wildshape.

If a variant says, "you give up X to get Y" and you don't have X, you can't give it up.

I don't care if it says next to the immediate magic entry in PHB 2, "You can use this variant with the UA variants for Wizards." You still don't get to give up your familiar once and get two variants.

If it said, "You can gain the benefits of Thug despite not qualifying." Yes, you would get the benefits, but telling you that you can use both variants doesn't mean you can get benefits without paying the qualification.


I'd love to see a DM look at the variants and say

"stuff"

I'd love to see (by which I mean have never seen and never expect to see ever) a DM who let someone play Fighter, Fighter with SA, Thug, or Fighter with SA and Thug.

Because I've never seen a DM who hated their players that much.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:07 AM
I recommend the Iaijutsu Focus skill. Getting all those extra dice of damage would be niiiiice. Either a gnomish quickrazor, or Quick Draw. Arrows work too, which would be much cheaper in the long run (since they're enhanced as projectiles); however, you take a nonproficiency penalty to your attacks (which could possibly be fixed with a feat). Oooh...what about a raptor arrow or two?

Also, what about the Greater Psionic Weapon feat?

uggh, this is why i always feel stupid for not having Oriental Adventures. i know that iaijutsu is tied in to a skill roll, but that is it.

Greater Psionic Weapon isnt bad, but i am running out [actually have no room for feats now] of feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-17, 12:09 AM
Applying Sneak Attack is probably just as important, if not more so, than cranking up the sneak attack damage per hit.

Take a look at this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102949) build for an idea of what I mean.

Out of 12 levels, it has 4d6 sneak attack, and goes up to 6d6 with Assassin's Stance, so it's not... bad. From this basis, however, you can apply all your other tactics to ramp up the SA numbers since you still have eight levels to play with. It does do a very important thing. Well, two actually.

1) Full TWF from Bloodclaw Master makes for an exceptionally nasty attack combo, when using Pouncing Strike to make a full attack on a charge. So not only does he have a LOT of attacks for a character his level, but he also is usually able to MAKE a full attack every round. This makes his ability to apply precision-based damage consistently probably more important than having WTFOMGBBQ numbers on a single attack.

2) He has wands of Golembane and Gravebane in wand sheaths. This falls into the category of "Applying precision-based damage in more situations", since they allow him to SA constructs and undead respectively. Because having 22d6 sneak attack is nice and all... until you run into something immune to it.

The two levels of Nightsong Enforcer might be replaced with two other levels that both promote SA (rather than only one), however the swordsage levels are mandatory and the bloodclaw master levels let him TWF far more effectively, which would probably end up helping him do more damage overall than an extra 2d6 sneak attack.

RTGoodman
2009-05-17, 12:09 AM
Aptitude? where? i am looking at the feat section right now, and i cant find it.

It's in the Magic Items section of ToB, IIRC. It's a weapon property that lets you use that weapon as if it were another weapon for the sake of class abilities and such.

monty
2009-05-17, 12:14 AM
It doesn't matter if it specifically says, "You can take this variant along with Druid."

You are still just a level 1 Fighter with 1d6 SA and 2+Int skill points.

You don't magically gain Druid casting an AC and Wildshape.

If a variant says, "you give up X to get Y" and you don't have X, you can't give it up.

I don't care if it says next to the immediate magic entry in PHB 2, "You can use this variant with the UA variants for Wizards." You still don't get to give up your familiar once and get two variants.

If it said, "You can gain the benefits of Thug despite not qualifying." Yes, you would get the benefits, but telling you that you can use both variants doesn't mean you can get benefits without paying the qualification.

The general rule for things like this is "specific trumps general." The general in this case is that you can't give up the same thing twice. The specific is that it says you can use both variants together. Therefore, you can do both.

Here's a question: if you couldn't combine the two, then why would it say that you can combine the two?


I'd love to see (by which I mean have never seen and never expect to see ever) a DM who let someone play Fighter, Fighter with SA, Thug, or Fighter with SA and Thug.

Because I've never seen a DM who hated their players that much.

Would you mind explaining what the hell you're talking about here?

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:15 AM
It doesn't matter if it specifically says, "You can take this variant along with Druid."

You are still just a level 1 Fighter with 1d6 SA and 2+Int skill points.

You don't magically gain Druid casting an AC and Wildshape.

If a variant says, "you give up X to get Y" and you don't have X, you can't give it up.

I don't care if it says next to the immediate magic entry in PHB 2, "You can use this variant with the UA variants for Wizards." You still don't get to give up your familiar once and get two variants.

If it said, "You can gain the benefits of Thug despite not qualifying." Yes, you would get the benefits, but telling you that you can use both variants doesn't mean you can get benefits without paying the qualification.



I'd love to see (by which I mean have never seen and never expect to see ever) a DM who let someone play Fighter, Fighter with SA, Thug, or Fighter with SA and Thug.

Because I've never seen a DM who hated their players that much.

why would they hate the players? this makes a fighter marginally better, but without the sneaking like [monty i think it was?] said, the ability is just another small source of damage, one that will only come up if there is another melee fighting with you.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:19 AM
It's in the Magic Items section of ToB, IIRC. It's a weapon property that lets you use that weapon as if it were another weapon for the sake of class abilities and such.

sweet, but, it would seem that if we combine all of these weapon properties it might be too many.

so far we've got:

Keen
Assassination
Aptitude
[that other property mentioned at the same time as assassination]

[which i am guessing will be over +5]

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-17, 12:28 AM
sweet, but, it would seem that if we combine all of these weapon properties it might be too many.

so far we've got:

Keen
Assassination
Aptitude
[that other property mentioned at the same time as assassination]

[which i am guessing will be over +5]

Then get a +1 enhancement/+9 special abilities weapon.

...and get an eternal wand of greater magic weapon...

RTGoodman
2009-05-17, 12:29 AM
sweet, but, it would seem that if we combine all of these weapon properties it might be too many.

Ah, actually, took a look at it, and it only works for FEATS. So you'd get the benefit from Weapon Focus (Longsword) with your +1 aptitude greatsword, but that's it. Back to the drawing-board, I guess. It's only a +1-equivalent price, though.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:43 AM
Applying Sneak Attack is probably just as important, if not more so, than cranking up the sneak attack damage per hit.
now, really, it is not that hard to apply SA to all attacks. this is why wizards created Wands of Golembane, Gravebane, Vinebane[?, the one for plants]


Take a look at this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102949) build for an idea of what I mean.
umm, ok, so its a rogue with ToB levels. so what. this is an exercise in creating a playable character that can do loads of damage. I really dont see why you are comparing the two. yours isnt really focusing on SA like my build is. and i admit, your build is good, and entirely playable, but so is mine, if your DM doesnt like to limit multi-classing. but again, the focus is different.


Out of 12 levels, it has 4d6 sneak attack, and goes up to 6d6 with Assassin's Stance, so it's not... bad. From this basis, however, you can apply all your other tactics to ramp up the SA numbers since you still have eight levels to play with. It does do a very important thing. Well, two actually.
of course its not bad. your focus would appear to be about flexibility [or at least thats how it seems] with a dash of sneak. my build is ALL about damage. that is its focus. if i wanted to create a character that is melee, and flexible, i would of course play a ToB class, using maneuvers.


1) Full TWF from Bloodclaw Master makes for an exceptionally nasty attack combo, when using Pouncing Strike to make a full attack on a charge. So not only does he have a LOT of attacks for a character his level, but he also is usually able to MAKE a full attack every round. This makes his ability to apply precision-based damage consistently probably more important than having WTFOMGBBQ numbers on a single attack.
actually, if i wanted WTFOMGBBQ numbers on a single attack, i would make Barbarian/Frenzied Beserker/Fighter. i am making a rogue/Sneak Attack character because i saw an interesting pattern with classes. but this is all a moot point. i am NOT making this character for TWF. TWF is the best means to use SA damage in large numbers. therefore TWF is a means to an end. what i believe you are saying, is that TWF is mostly what your build is about. and Full attack every round does not limit the damage that much seeing as there is a huge number of SA on my builds attacks.
2) He has wands of Golembane and Gravebane in wand sheaths. This falls into the category of "Applying precision-based damage in more situations", since they allow him to SA constructs and undead respectively. Because having 22d6 sneak attack is nice and all... until you run into something immune to it.[/quote]
thank you for mentioning this, or i would have forgotten to add it to the build. no where ever does it say that my build cannot use Wands. ever. which makes me wonder why you are using this as a point.


The two levels of Nightsong Enforcer might be replaced with two other levels that both promote SA (rather than only one), however the swordsage levels are mandatory and the bloodclaw master levels let him TWF far more effectively, which would probably end up helping him do more damage overall than an extra 2d6 sneak attack.
so 2 levels of BCM net you shifting, full damage to offhand, and negating the penalty of TWF. so you gain 1/2 strength to damage for 1/2 your attacks. and you gain a +2 bonus [essentially] to TWF. and shifting, which is like a miniature rage that gives claws. which of those lets your build Deal more damage than mine?

if any of this at all sounded like it was offensive, i meant it as no such thing. staying up late just does that to me sometimes :smallsmile:

unosarta
2009-05-17, 12:45 AM
Then get a +1 enhancement/+9 special abilities weapon.

...and get an eternal wand of greater magic weapon...

not a bad idea.

EDIT: good weapon Properties:

Speed, Keen, Assassination, Thundering, Deadly Surge, Shadowstrike

any other suggestions?

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-17, 01:01 AM
Collision. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision)

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-17, 01:05 AM
Also, the manyfanged enhancement from Serpent Kingdoms.

4x damage for the weapon in question (including all enhancements and bonus damage).

unosarta
2009-05-17, 01:06 AM
Collision. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision)

NICE!

so there is collision, Speed, Keen, Assassination, Thundering, Deadly Surge, Shadowstrike

good magical items: Dimension Stride Boots

Dark_Scary
2009-05-17, 01:06 AM
Here's a question: if you couldn't combine the two, then why would it say that you can combine the two?

It doesn't say you can combine the two, it says you can use them both. You can also use a Druid and a Wizard. This could just as easily be a reference to the previously stated suggestion, "generally, you should not allow both a standard class and it's variant blah blah."


Would you mind explaining what the hell you're talking about here?

The fighter is a terrible class not worth playing. The Thug Fighter is also. The SA Fighter is also. The Thug SA Fighter is also. I would not expect any DM I would ever play with to let someone play a terrible unfun and generally worthless class.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 01:07 AM
Also, the manyfanged enhancement from Serpent Kingdoms.

4x damage for the weapon in question (including all enhancements and bonus damage).

whats the cost though?

RTGoodman
2009-05-17, 01:10 AM
The fighter is a terrible class not worth playing. The Thug Fighter is also. The SA Fighter is also. The Thug SA Fighter is also. I would not expect any DM I would ever play with to let someone play a terrible unfun and generally worthless class.

See now, we were having a perfectly nice "optimization" discussion here, and you had to come and be a Negative Nancy about it. Just let folks do what they want without telling them what's fun. This is how flamewars start, and those always end in tears (er, well, at least mod-based punishment).


Anyway, I'm thinking there might also be some good augment crystals (from MIC) for this (besides the ones for SA against immune foes), but I'll have to get my copy back first. Anyone got it handy to check?

JackMage666
2009-05-17, 01:14 AM
Since no-one's mentioned it.

If you're going for a High Crit range, and thus, lots of crits (Kukris w/ Keen or Improved Crit), Telling Blow from PHB2 will let you deal your sneak attack damage as a bonus when you deal a Critical Hit (which means, 2x Sneak Attack if you Crit while flanking)

Since you should be criting 1/4 of the time, this is a nice boost.

Hope that helps.

tyckspoon
2009-05-17, 01:19 AM
Anyway, I'm thinking there might also be some good augment crystals (from MIC) for this (besides the ones for SA against immune foes), but I'll have to get my copy back first. Anyone got it handy to check?

Just the default Energy Assault crystals, which let you throw on another d6 worth of damage. Swap 'em for Demolition or Truedeath when you have to deal with the appropriate enemies, but beyond that there's nothing that deals with Sneak Attack in particular.


(which means, 2x Sneak Attack if you Crit while flanking)
Telling Blow doesn't work like that. It just adds another condition that can let you Sneak Attack- for comparison, imagine you were flanking somebody who was denied their Dex bonus. You don't get double Sneak Attack on that poor sap either.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 01:20 AM
See now, we were having a perfectly nice "optimization" discussion here, and you had to come and be a Negative Nancy about it. Just let folks do what they want without telling them what's fun. This is how flamewars start, and those always end in tears (er, well, at least mod-based punishment).
the flamewars. now, that would be a fun campaign setting. people got itno huge fights over small things, like roleplaying games, until it all spilled over, and people went insane. so started the FLAMEWARS Duh Duh DUH!


Anyway, I'm thinking there might also be some good augment crystals (from MIC) for this (besides the ones for SA against immune foes), but I'll have to get my copy back first. Anyone got it handy to check?
most of them are so-so for this build, but Revelation crystal is ok if you can already see invisible creatures.

EDIT: and what Tyckspoon said.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-17, 01:23 AM
whats the cost though?

It's an ability you'd have to lift from the manyfanged dagger, and it doesn't say explicitly, but I do believe it's a +2 equivalent.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 01:32 AM
It's an ability you'd have to lift from the manyfanged dagger, and it doesn't say explicitly, but I do believe it's a +2 equivalent.

so thats Speed[+3], Assassination[+2], Deadly Precision[+1], Shadowstrike[+1], Many Fanged[+2]

EDIT: oh, now i have to calculate damage

{[(3.5*21)+32]*4}*6 is 2532 damage on average, if the enhancements are correct.

{[(21)+32]*4}*6 is 1272 at the lowest

{[(6*21)+32]*4}*6 is 3792 at the highest.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 01:44 AM
well? is my math right? i just want to make sure this is right or not.

Alleine
2009-05-17, 02:24 AM
It doesn't say you can combine the two, it says you can use them both

Uh, actually it does. Right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) under Fighter Variant and in the book UA, which I own and am looking at right now. It says combine.


Unosarta, do you mean Deadly Precision? That's the +1 from the MiC that gives +1d6 sneak attack damage.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 02:25 AM
Uh, actually it does. Right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) under Fighter Variant and in the book UA, which I own and am looking at right now. It says combine.

Unosarta, do you mean Deadly Precision? That's the +1 from the MiC that gives +1d6 sneak attack damage.
yup. sorry about the confusion.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-17, 07:36 AM
If you're going for a High Crit range, and thus, lots of crits (Kukris w/ Keen or Improved Crit), Telling Blow from PHB2 will let you deal your sneak attack damage as a bonus when you deal a Critical Hit (which means, 2x Sneak Attack if you Crit while flanking)
No, it means 1x sneak attack if you crit while flanking, just as it's 1x sneak attack if you flank while invisible.
When a rogue with the Telling Blow feat (PHB II 83) deals a critical hit against a flat-footed enemy, does she add her sneak attack damage twice?
No. The feat simply adds another criteria that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage; it doesn’t allow either of those values to be added twice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-17, 09:14 AM
now, really, it is not that hard to apply SA to all attacks. this is why wizards created Wands of Golembane, Gravebane, Vinebane[?, the one for plants] Which is what my character uses, and pointed out how to use.



umm, ok, so its a rogue with ToB levels. so what. this is an exercise in creating a playable character that can do loads of damage. I really dont see why you are comparing the two. yours isnt really focusing on SA like my build is. and i admit, your build is good, and entirely playable, but so is mine, if your DM doesnt like to limit multi-classing. but again, the focus is different. No, the focus is the same... applying more sneak attack. I just go about it in a different way.



of course its not bad. your focus would appear to be about flexibility [or at least thats how it seems] with a dash of sneak. my build is ALL about damage. that is its focus. if i wanted to create a character that is melee, and flexible, i would of course play a ToB class, using maneuvers. No, the focus of my build is to apply sneak attack as much as possible. With Island of Blades + Pouncing Strike, I can apply sneak attack to a full attack progression every turn.


actually, if i wanted WTFOMGBBQ numbers on a single attack, i would make Barbarian/Frenzied Beserker/Fighter. i am making a rogue/Sneak Attack character because i saw an interesting pattern with classes. but this is all a moot point. i am NOT making this character for TWF. TWF is the best means to use SA damage in large numbers. therefore TWF is a means to an end. what i believe you are saying, is that TWF is mostly what your build is about. and Full attack every round does not limit the damage that much seeing as there is a huge number of SA on my builds attacks. And all it takes is a properly applied 5' step to make your TWF worthless, forcing you to move and make a single attack rather than make a full attack. My build, on the other hand, can full attack you no matter where you run. And can generally apply full sneak attack progression with it.


thank you for mentioning this, or i would have forgotten to add it to the build. no where ever does it say that my build cannot use Wands. ever. which makes me wonder why you are using this as a point. I just wanted to remind you, that was all.



so 2 levels of BCM net you shifting, full damage to offhand, and negating the penalty of TWF. so you gain 1/2 strength to damage for 1/2 your attacks. and you gain a +2 bonus [essentially] to TWF. and shifting, which is like a miniature rage that gives claws. which of those lets your build Deal more damage than mine? Actually, with Shadow Blade, it's full Dex to damage. Since his Str is a 6, but his Dex is a 28... that's quite a bit more damage output, more than Collision grants (+9 vs a -2). The claws are irrelevant, the lack of TWF penalties are, however, quite useful. My character is doing, WITHOUT sneak attack, something like 1d4+17. Oh, and if you had looked a bit harder at the character sheet, you'd have seen Collision a bit sooner as well.


if any of this at all sounded like it was offensive, i meant it as no such thing. staying up late just does that to me sometimes :smallsmile:No worries, man. I understand.

I think you kind of missed my point, though. Having a lot of SA is nice, don't get me wrong, but you need to actually be able to apply it properly. TWF is a wonderful way to multiply your Sneak Attack... if you can ever get a full attack off to use it. How do you propose your character will be able to get into Full Attack Flanking position? Your character is pretty squishy... if a monster closes with him, he gets the first, and probably the last, shot. If you close and make a single attack, the monster will either turn around and turn you into a greasy stain, or move away so you can't full attack him. Either way, it is pathetically easy to prevent a full attack.

So while being able to do a lot of sneak attack is a good thing, being able to apply it effectively is just as important, if not moreso. After all, if your opponent is able to keep you from TWFing him by moving or splatting you, it's really not all that worthwhile.

A single-level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian (variant from Complete Champion) will give you pounce without needing Swordsage, and it will go a LONG way to dramatically increasing the total damage your character can dish out. You go from dishing out 22d6 sneak attack, to dishing out 21d6 sneak attack... times six. Or 126d6. I know what I'd rather be tossing around...

unosarta
2009-05-17, 09:47 AM
Which is what my character uses, and pointed out how to use.
how exactly has this been pointed out?


No, the focus is the same... applying more sneak attack. I just go about it in a different way.
well, i suppose. it just seems that you have created a TWF build, and then tacked on some SA for extra damage. i guess i got the wrong picture from reading your character.


No, the focus of my build is to apply sneak attack as much as possible. With Island of Blades + Pouncing Strike, I can apply sneak attack to a full attack progression every turn.
here is where i advocate a lovely item that the build will be using besides just weapons and ability enhancers, the Dimension Stride Boots. these boots, allow you to teleport certain distances for charges refreshed each day. and since they certainly dont mention activation time, i doubt there is a specific one. but mainly, these boots are there to allow the build to complete a full attack and still move. but even if it doesnt, there is alot of damage still going around, so in no way does it make the build unviable if it cant get a full attack each round.


And all it takes is a properly applied 5' step to make your TWF worthless, forcing you to move and make a single attack rather than make a full attack. My build, on the other hand, can full attack you no matter where you run. And can generally apply full sneak attack progression with it.
see above.


I just wanted to remind you, that was all.
sorry for getting snappy, and thanks for reminding me.


Actually, with Shadow Blade, it's full Dex to damage. Since his Str is a 6, but his Dex is a 28... that's quite a bit more damage output, more than Collision grants (+9 vs a -2). The claws are irrelevant, the lack of TWF penalties are, however, quite useful. My character is doing, WITHOUT sneak attack, something like 1d4+17. Oh, and if you had looked a bit harder at the character sheet, you'd have seen Collision a bit sooner as well.
sorry about not noticing that. but i really dont see the point about arguing this. your build does something like:

(2.5+17+[3.5*6])*6 or 243 damage every full attack [assuming you already calculated Dex into that 1d4+17].

this build does [(21*3.5)+32]*4 or 527.5 on a single hit, without any bonus damage from strength or dexterity.


No worries, man. I understand.
thanks, i hate it when i offend someone on accident.


I think you kind of missed my point, though. Having a lot of SA is nice, don't get me wrong, but you need to actually be able to apply it properly. TWF is a wonderful way to multiply your Sneak Attack... if you can ever get a full attack off to use it. How do you propose your character will be able to get into Full Attack Flanking position? Your character is pretty squishy... if a monster closes with him, he gets the first, and probably the last, shot. If you close and make a single attack, the monster will either turn around and turn you into a greasy stain, or move away so you can't full attack him. Either way, it is pathetically easy to prevent a full attack.
umm, well, i am assuming you didnt do the math for a single sneak attack from my build, and as such you get the benefit of the doubt. but really, if your party has a spellcaster, and he/she isnt giving you invisibility/greater invisibility, they are doing your party a disservice. seriously. and anyway, most fighters make great tanks and are able to keep opponents off of you for long enough for a sneak attack or two. and if they dont? ranged damage can be quite nice i hear. plus it probably costs less.


So while being able to do a lot of sneak attack is a good thing, being able to apply it effectively is just as important, if not moreso. After all, if your opponent is able to keep you from TWFing him by moving or splatting you, it's really not all that worthwhile.
if you are attempting to solo any monster here without first being able to sneak up to them, and then apply SA and SS, without them knowing, you are attempting to play this build wrong. because SS only works when they are unaware of you, in most cases you must have Invisibility or Greater Invisibility. otherwise the monster will smash your face against the floor, and then slowly turn you into a paste.


A single-level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian (variant from Complete Champion) will give you pounce without needing Swordsage, and it will go a LONG way to dramatically increasing the total damage your character can dish out. You go from dishing out 22d6 sneak attack, to dishing out 21d6 sneak attack... times six. Or 126d6. I know what I'd rather be tossing around...
well, you would have to have the monster unaware to get SS damage [even if there only is one die of it, i would like to have all of the Precision damage possible on attacks], and i do believe that charging wouldnt quite help with that. also, i am not sure of this, but how would flanking and doing that work out? but most of all, this is not an ubercharger build, therefore, i really dont want to go into charging. it may work [i am not sure how with flanking], but i really dont want to go there just yet.

tyckspoon
2009-05-17, 10:21 AM
here is where i advocate a lovely item that the build will be using besides just weapons and ability enhancers, the Dimension Stride Boots. these boots, allow you to teleport certain distances for charges refreshed each day. and since they certainly dont mention activation time, i doubt there is a specific one. but mainly, these boots are there to allow the build to complete a full attack and still move. but even if it doesnt, there is alot of damage still going around, so in no way does it make the build unviable if it cant get a full attack each round.


The activation times for items in the MIC are in the stat-block headers, not the text description. Those boots are Command Word (Standard.) The item you want for that is either the Boots of Swift Passage + a source of extra Move actions (they're command word: Move, but if you have that you're probably just as well off using those Move actions to just move) or a few Anklets of Translocation, which are a 10-foot teleport Swift action.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 10:27 AM
although, if you want to try your hand at a build with this, go right ahead. in fact, if you replace the ninja level, you dont lose any SA damage, since you can tack on another level on Fighter variant. aww, screw that, i am writing a build now.

Rogue3/Totem Barbarian1/Psi-Rogue1/Spellthief1/Variant Fighter5/Assassin1/Avenging Executioner1/Dread Commando1/Invisible Blade5/Nightsong Enforcer1

goes something like this:

1. Rogue1
2. Rogue2
3. Rogue3
4. Rogue3/TVB1
5. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1
6. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1
7. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT1
8. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT2
9. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT3
10. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT4
11. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5
12. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1
13. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1
14. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1
15. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1
16. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1/IB1
17. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1/IB2
18. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1/IB3
19. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1/IB4
20. Rogue3/TVB1/Psi-Rogue1/SpellThief1/FVT5/Assassin1/AE1/DC1/NE1/IB5

Feats:
H:Two Weapon Fighting
Flaw: Martial Study [clinging Shadow Strike]
1:Craven
3:Weapon Focus [Daggers]
6:Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7b:Dodge
8b:Mobility
9:Point Blank Shot
10b:Far Shot
12:Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15:Improved Initiative
18:Martial Stance [Assassins Stance]

BAB= 2+1+0+0+5+0+0+1+1+5 = +15 NOO!! +18 with fractional BAB rule. how can we improve BAB people?

with 2 Manyfanged Assassination Deadly Precision Shadow Strike daggers of Speed [with only a +1 bonus] we have:

8 attacks [i did my calculations wrong before, sorry. for other build should be 9 attacks a round, with speed daggers.]

3/day we have an attack against a target that is flatfooted.

+3d6 SA damage.

which equates to this:

{[(20*3.5)+32]*4}*8 or 3264 damage on average. you can charge and full attack, so as long as someone is flanking you, you can apply all of this damage to your charge.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 10:28 AM
The activation times for items in the MIC are in the stat-block headers, not the text description. Those boots are Command Word (Standard.) The item you want for that is either the Boots of Swift Passage + a source of extra Move actions (they're command word: Move, but if you have that you're probably just as well off using those Move actions to just move) or a few Anklets of Translocation, which are a 10-foot teleport Swift action.

ah, thats too bad. the anklets are pretty neat though, and with the newest build you can just pounce anyway. but for the old one, thats not bad.

monty
2009-05-17, 01:49 PM
It doesn't say you can combine the two, it says you can use them both. You can also use a Druid and a Wizard. This could just as easily be a reference to the previously stated suggestion, "generally, you should not allow both a standard class and it's variant blah blah."

Except that it specifically uses the word "combine" in the description.


The fighter is a terrible class not worth playing. The Thug Fighter is also. The SA Fighter is also. The Thug SA Fighter is also. I would not expect any DM I would ever play with to let someone play a terrible unfun and generally worthless class.

And yet, people still play fighters. People also play monks and truenamers sometimes. Just because a class is terrible doesn't mean people won't try to use it anyway. And any DM that restricts a class because they think it isn't fun to play is an idiot.

Player: "Hey, I think I'm going to play a fighter this time."
DM: "Fighters suck. Play something else."
Player: :smallannoyed:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-17, 06:04 PM
how exactly has this been pointed out?


well, i suppose. it just seems that you have created a TWF build, and then tacked on some SA for extra damage. i guess i got the wrong picture from reading your character.


here is where i advocate a lovely item that the build will be using besides just weapons and ability enhancers, the Dimension Stride Boots. these boots, allow you to teleport certain distances for charges refreshed each day. and since they certainly dont mention activation time, i doubt there is a specific one. but mainly, these boots are there to allow the build to complete a full attack and still move. but even if it doesnt, there is alot of damage still going around, so in no way does it make the build unviable if it cant get a full attack each round. Those boots are an activated item, which means Standard action.


sorry about not noticing that. but i really dont see the point about arguing this. your build does something like:

(2.5+17+[3.5*6])*6 or 243 damage every full attack [assuming you already calculated Dex into that 1d4+17].

this build does [(21*3.5)+32]*4 or 527.5 on a single hit, without any bonus damage from strength or dexterity. My build is also [i]eight levels lower than yours[/quote], plus you forgot to add in the +12 from Craven for a total of 315. At 12th level. Tack on some of the tactics that you are using (eight one-level dips that all grant sneak attack), and bump up to 20th level, and my build will be doing somewhere around (1d4+17+12d6+20)*8 or around 660 damage, going up to over 700 when he can get either a 'perfect flank' or unseen and can use Assassin's Stance rather than Island of Blades.

With a one-level loss on sneak attack to get Pounce, you go from 527.5 in a single round to [(20*3.5)+32]*8, coming in at over 1000 damage a round, nearly doubling your damage. You wanted to maximize sneak attack damage? That's how.


umm, well, i am assuming you didnt do the math for a single sneak attack from my build, and as such you get the benefit of the doubt. but really, if your party has a spellcaster, and he/she isnt giving you invisibility/greater invisibility, they are doing your party a disservice. seriously. and anyway, most fighters make great tanks and are able to keep opponents off of you for long enough for a sneak attack or two. and if they dont? ranged damage can be quite nice i hear. plus it probably costs less. Ranged would cost more in terms of feats, requiring Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot to be able to pull off effectively.

Also, don't count on being invisible... after about CR13ish, most monsters either can see invisible, or don't rely on senses which Invisibility can fool.


if you are attempting to solo any monster here without first being able to sneak up to them, and then apply SA and SS, without them knowing, you are attempting to play this build wrong. because SS only works when they are unaware of you, in most cases you must have Invisibility or Greater Invisibility. otherwise the monster will smash your face against the floor, and then slowly turn you into a paste. See above about why using invisibility as a crutch can be hazardous to your health. I'm not talking about being unaware, I'm talking about Pouncing into flanking position (using Island of Blades to make it much easier), and going to town.


well, you would have to have the monster unaware to get SS damage [even if there only is one die of it, i would like to have all of the Precision damage possible on attacks], and i do believe that charging wouldnt quite help with that. also, i am not sure of this, but how would flanking and doing that work out? but most of all, this is not an ubercharger build, therefore, i really dont want to go into charging. it may work [i am not sure how with flanking], but i really dont want to go there just yet.

Well, that's one weakness with your build, then... not everything can be taken unawares. Most dragons, for example, have Blindsense for longer range than you can sneak attack. My build is not dependent on catching my target unawares, it simply relies on my tank being adjacent to it somewhere. This isn't an ubercharge build, it's about being able to move AND make a full attack, being able to crank out EIGHT TIMES the number of attacks that you would with a single standard action.

You're confusing Pounce with Ubercharge. With this build, you let the Tank close in with the Target. Then you Pounce in, and make a full attack. Because the Tank is adjacent, thanks to Island of Blades, you get Flanking on it, and proceed to empty a full attack's worth of blows on it, turning it into a greasy stain. This build actually does MORE damage than an Ubercharger, but doesn't bother with power attacking.

unosarta
2009-05-17, 06:24 PM
Those boots are an activated item, which means Standard action.


My build is also [i]eight levels lower than yours, plus you forgot to add in the +12 from Craven for a total of 315. At 12th level. Tack on some of the tactics that you are using (eight one-level dips that all grant sneak attack), and bump up to 20th level, and my build will be doing somewhere around (1d4+17+12d6+20)*8 or around 660 damage, going up to over 700 when he can get either a 'perfect flank' or unseen and can use Assassin's Stance rather than Island of Blades.
i have to wonder why you compared a level 12 build to a level 20 build :smallwink: save some time and make the character 20 and show me your build. i want to see the final result.


With a one-level loss on sneak attack to get Pounce, you go from 527.5 in a single round to [(20*3.5)+32]*8, coming in at over 1000 damage a round, nearly doubling your damage. You wanted to maximize sneak attack damage? That's how.
i am assuming you didnt read my next post of a build that DOES use Pounce. otherwise, yeah.


Ranged would cost more in terms of feats, requiring Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot to be able to pull off effectively.
already have Point Blank Shot [damn invisible blade requirements. Far shot? are you kidding me? :smallfurious:], and really, in no way am, i saying that i think this build works for ranged. i am simply trying to make a counter argument [and anyway, if you were going to make a Ranged build, why would you have TWF feats? so you could throw out 3 feats, and then you need... exactly 3 feats to make ranged work:smallbiggrin:]


Also, don't count on being invisible... after about CR13ish, most monsters either can see invisible, or don't rely on senses which Invisibility can fool.
normally, i just count invisibility as adding a +40 modifier to your Hide check. really though, its not that hard to beef up Hide and MS to the point of being higher than a monsters'.


See above about why using invisibility as a crutch can be hazardous to your health. I'm not talking about being unaware, I'm talking about Pouncing into flanking position (using Island of Blades to make it much easier), and going to town.
i concede to the point of not using invisibility too much.


Well, that's one weakness with your build, then... not everything can be taken unawares. Most dragons, for example, have Blindsense for longer range than you can sneak attack. My build is not dependent on catching my target unawares, it simply relies on my tank being adjacent to it somewhere. This isn't an ubercharge build, it's about being able to move AND make a full attack, being able to crank out EIGHT TIMES the number of attacks that you would with a single standard action.
see point about new build. SS damage is only 1d6 now. so its not that big a deal.


You're confusing Pounce with Ubercharge. With this build, you let the Tank close in with the Target. Then you Pounce in, and make a full attack. Because the Tank is adjacent, thanks to Island of Blades, you get Flanking on it, and proceed to empty a full attack's worth of blows on it, turning it into a greasy stain. This build actually does MORE damage than an Ubercharger, but doesn't bother with power attacking.
No. this build does about 2k damage less than an ubercharger build. i have made one, and i have compared the numbers. this is not more than ubercharger. but yeah, i like to think that charge is the domain of the ubercharger, whether its true or not [mostly because i am afraid of the guy :smalleek:].

Thurbane
2009-05-17, 08:01 PM
It doesn't say you can combine the two, it says you can use them both. You can also use a Druid and a Wizard. This could just as easily be a reference to the previously stated suggestion, "generally, you should not allow both a standard class and it's variant blah blah."
Sorry, but the wording in UA clearly states that the thug variant and SA variant fighter can be applied to the same character. Everyone else seems to get this.

The relative worth of the class(es) is a separate issue.

Chronos
2009-05-17, 09:13 PM
As long as you're using a throwable weapon, you could also use the halfling rogue substitution level from Races of the Wild instead of regular rogue. That'll give you an extra d6 (but reduce you by 1d6 for melee).

unosarta
2009-05-18, 09:24 PM
As long as you're using a throwable weapon, you could also use the halfling rogue substitution level from Races of the Wild instead of regular rogue. That'll give you an extra d6 (but reduce you by 1d6 for melee).

this actually isnt a bad idea, especially since you can throw daggers, so it does work with Invisible Blade.

LOLC2k
2009-05-18, 10:08 PM
I can't be the only one who has trouble hitting even with optimized rogues. Furthermore, almost every humanoid enemy by epic levels has some form of fortification on their armor, oftentimes medium, sometimes medium twice (once on the shield, once on the armor) and heavy fortification still makes this build all for naught, which is probably why I never make rogues... and I even make crap like monks. I dunno. Just seems like everything is immune to stuff rogues can throw. And they can overcome a lot of it, but humanoids in armor is a big group.

monty
2009-05-18, 10:19 PM
Wasn't this just more of a theoretical exercise, to see how many dice you could throw on a single attack? I don't think it was ever intended for actual play.

unosarta
2009-05-20, 02:59 PM
I can't be the only one who has trouble hitting even with optimized rogues. Furthermore, almost every humanoid enemy by epic levels has some form of fortification on their armor, oftentimes medium, sometimes medium twice (once on the shield, once on the armor) and heavy fortification still makes this build all for naught, which is probably why I never make rogues... and I even make crap like monks. I dunno. Just seems like everything is immune to stuff rogues can throw. And they can overcome a lot of it, but humanoids in armor is a big group.

ok, basically, what monty said, but also, while every humanoid may have fortification/heavy fortification, there is a thing called sunder. but if that doesnt work, either because you cant pull out enough damage, or some other reason, the BSF probably can pull out enough damage to be able to sunder enemy items.

and if a DM continues to just throw all humanoids wearing Heavy fortification armor at you every single encounter, why would you play with them? it would seem that the NPCs you are imagining are specifically designed to combat SA heavy rogues [but of course, BSF+sunder will always work] and if a DM specifically makes them just to do that, they are being jerks. simple as that.

and lastly, this character is not limited to being a Damage dealer. most of the Skill requirements are for Hide and Moves Silently, so the character would make an excellent scout as well [just need to put the remaining ranks in Spot and Listen.]

Eldariel
2009-05-20, 03:19 PM
ok, basically, what monty said, but also, while every humanoid may have fortification/heavy fortification, there is a thing called sunder. but if that doesnt work, either because you cant pull out enough damage, or some other reason, the BSF probably can pull out enough damage to be able to sunder enemy items.

Sunder doesn't work on armor. Also, if you could do enough damage to kill it, you could do enough damage to kill the fcking wielder and get the Heavy Fortification armor as loot... Way too many hoops, and BSF has better things to do than to let you do less damage than he can. Anti-Magic Field might work, but it's unwandable and meh...

unosarta
2009-05-20, 03:23 PM
Sunder doesn't work on armor. Also, if you could do enough damage to kill it, you could do enough damage to kill the fcking wielder and get the Heavy Fortification armor as loot... Way too many hoops, and BSF has better things to do than to let you do less damage than he can. Anti-Magic Field might work, but it's unwandable and meh...

really? i always thought that you could Sunder armor.

and, really? does a BSF do more damage than this build? damn! that is one badass BSF to do that much damage.

does anything allow you to ignore Fortification?

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 03:33 PM
really? i always thought that you could Sunder armor.

and, really? does a BSF do more damage than this build? damn! that is one badass BSF to do that much damage.

does anything allow you to ignore Fortification?

Fornication ignores fortification.

Get 'em out of that armor, and into amour, and you're set.

(Also, Brilliant Energy Weapons?)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 03:53 PM
and, really? does a BSF do more damage than this build? damn! that is one badass BSF to do that much damage.Have you not seen a charger build? Not even Ubercharger, just vanilla Paladin 5/full BAB 15 with PA, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

unosarta
2009-05-20, 04:36 PM
Have you not seen a charger build? Not even Ubercharger, just vanilla Paladin 5/full BAB 15 with PA, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

ok, first of all, THAT is not BSF. THAT is one of the Uberchargers. there is a difference. if you are trying to have both of these builds in the same game, i feel REALLY bad for your DM. Big Stupid Fighter means just that, someone who is big stupid and a fighter. the level of optimization displayed [usually] in any Ubercharger build demonstrates that the character is not one of these, and there for not a BSF.

but seriously, i would pity that DM.

unosarta
2009-05-20, 04:39 PM
Fornication ignores fortification.

Get 'em out of that armor, and into amour, and you're set.

(Also, Brilliant Energy Weapons?)

GAH! these puns are SOO bad!

(actually, Brilliant energy weapons would be good, if you could somehow get extra weapon Qualities without sacrificing the others.]

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 04:46 PM
ok, first of all, THAT is not BSF. THAT is one of the Uberchargers. there is a difference. if you are trying to have both of these builds in the same game, i feel REALLY bad for your DM. Big Stupid Fighter means just that, someone who is big stupid and a fighter. the level of optimization displayed [usually] in any Ubercharger build demonstrates that the character is not one of these, and there for not a BSF.

but seriously, i would pity that DM.I'm not talking about Ubercharger, I'm talking about someone with high damage output, who can take a lot of hits, and who the enemy is likely to target due to being close to them. That's a BSF. It's just that a charger is one of the few BSF builds that doesn't suck. And 20d6 is only 70 damage. You can boost it more, but your damage will probably never break 200. At 20th level. That's not much, especially since you have to spend feats and class features to eliminate ways for enemies to completely negate you. A Split Ray Orb or a Quickened Orb+Orb deal 30d6 damage.

Eldariel
2009-05-20, 04:52 PM
GAH! these puns are SOO bad!

(actually, Brilliant energy weapons would be good, if you could somehow get extra weapon Qualities without sacrificing the others.]

There's a spell named "Brilliant Weapon" that does exactly that. Better stay in friendly terms with your caster...and your DM (by RAW, it doesn't work).

unosarta
2009-05-20, 04:53 PM
I'm not talking about Ubercharger, I'm talking about someone with high damage output, who can take a lot of hits, and who the enemy is likely to target due to being close to them. That's a BSF. It's just that a charger is one of the few BSF builds that doesn't suck. And 20d6 is only 70 damage. You can boost it more, but your damage will probably never break 200. At 20th level. That's not much, especially since you have to spend feats and class features to eliminate ways for enemies to completely negate you. A Split Ray Orb or a Quickened Orb+Orb deal 30d6 damage.

did you see my calculations? did you check my build?

the SA build does about 3k damage on average.

and PLEASE dont bring spells into this. anything can be done better with a wizard. that is not the point of this thread.

unosarta
2009-05-20, 04:54 PM
There's a spell named "Brilliant Weapon" that does exactly that. Better stay in friendly terms with your caster...and your DM (by RAW, it doesn't work).

where exactly is this spell? i would like to know.

Eldariel
2009-05-20, 04:59 PM
where exactly is this spell? i would like to know.

Spell Compendium, at least.

EDIT: I'm going to contest Manyfanged multiplying SA damage; the generic rule is that anything with a separate attack roll receives precision damage, but multiple attacks (or multiplied damage) from a single attack only receives precision once. This cuts quite a bit into the numbers.

Hat-Trick
2009-05-20, 09:56 PM
The SA fighter+Thug thing has already been proven, but to put it a different way:

That thug fighter, lose a feat, THEN add SA Fighter. Completely in the rules, even if the combining thing wasn't there.

As it is, doesn't the generic rogue, or what ever, gain feats that increase sneak attack? I remember seeing somewhere that it can get more than a rogue 20.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-21, 12:38 AM
I can't be the only one who has trouble hitting even with optimized rogues. Furthermore, almost every humanoid enemy by epic levels has some form of fortification ... and heavy fortification still makes this build all for naught, which is probably why I never make rogues...
Two points:
1) Yes, this attempt at maximizing damage isn't realistic at all, because it ignores the First Rule of Sneak Attack:

If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero. That's why Rogues should almost never purchase weapon enhancements that don't increase their chances of hitting. (Keen is the only exception, since an increased threat range dovetails with Craven's bonus damage being multiplied on criticals.)

2) Penetrating Strike will make enemies with 100% fortification take 1/2 normal sneak attack damage when you flank them. It's not "all for naught"; rather, it's "sometimes for half".

lsfreak
2009-05-21, 01:27 AM
EDIT: Screw this, I suck at basic math. 16BAB + 13Dex + 8weapon (+1 shadow hand x of subtlety, rest into damage) -2TWF total +35, which means anything not a full AB or next-highest won't hit on average against most CR17+ monsters, glancing through MM1. GMW helps quite a bit, given full/-5/-10 sets through. Losing a weapon of subtlety means only full AB goes through. Though, of course, I'm sure there's ways to boost it up; hitting +40 is enough to hit with all but the last (-15) attack on average.

Of course, average is iffy because you still might be losing a ton of damage. Just throwing numbers up for reference.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-21, 03:22 AM
Brilliant Energy weapons don't do anything to bypass fortification.
A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. Fortification isn't any of the following:
nonliving matter
armor bonus to AC
shield bonus to AC
armor enhancement bonus to AC
shield enhancement bonus to AC
Still not convinced? Well, let's just everybody (DMs included) stop wasting gp getting fortification as an armor enhancement. It's much cheaper to instead get Gemstones of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83). These provide fortification without armor at all. Not only is the Gemstone approach more cost-effective, it adds the magical property to bypass this stupid argument entirely. :smallwink:

Malacode
2009-05-21, 03:27 AM
I think my personal best was... 23 D8 + 460 sneak attack damage against evil creatures or so at level 20, but that was a gestalt build. It needed Craven, Martial Study (For Assasins Stance, ToB) another feat that gave bonus sneak attack damage if you meet particular pre-requisites, all the WoTC prestige classes that gave +1d6 sneak attack at level 1 and two base classes with full SA progression held a level apart from one another for an extra d6 per level. And a single level of Spirit Lion Barbarian. TWF was involved. I might have remembered the damage incorectly but it was somewhere between 22 and 25 D8.

This is why I'm no longer allowed to play Rogues. Or Scouts. Or anything from ToB.

sofawall
2009-06-27, 10:38 PM
A few things:


This is why I'm no longer allowed to play Rogues. Or Scouts. Or anything from ToB.

I think it was gestalt more than anything.

I mean, straight Rogue/SA Fighter gets 21d6...

Organrippers are unique daggers that add 2d6 sneak attack.

Invisible Blade's weird feat reqs are from when it was a 10 level prestige class. It was the current class combined with Master Thrower. It's perfectly acceptable to houserule those reqs away, as that is what the designer of the class said to do anyway :P

EDIT: I do acknowledge necro, just wanted to point out information relevant to the discussion here.

SilveryCord
2009-06-27, 11:12 PM
human
4 level factotum (3 inspiration points, cunning strike)
2 levels human paragon (bonus feat)
take the 'Font of Inspiration' feat 5 times for 15 inspiration points
+18d6 sneak attack per encounter at level 6 ;)
get a few more with some spell or enchantment bonus or something

sofawall
2009-06-27, 11:38 PM
Just remembered something else!

Don't make a Keen weapon, use Scabbard of Keen edges!

Also, one attack of 18d6 sneak attack sounds good, but what happens when swarmed by mooks?

How will you know how many dice to use so you don't waste any?

herrhauptmann
2009-06-28, 12:14 AM
Say 'Wizard, drop a fireball on me, I'll evade for half or full'

And doesn't this count as thread necromancy?

Stormthorn
2009-06-28, 01:07 AM
The Guild Thief PrC gives you +1d6 sneak attack at first level.

sofawall
2009-06-28, 01:46 AM
EDIT: I do acknowledge necro, just wanted to point out information relevant to the discussion here.


And doesn't this count as thread necromancy?


I do love quoting myself.

but honestly, should I have made a brand new thread to contribute to a subject that has an existing thread?

I always thought thread necromancy was when you offered nothing to the discussion, just said "Heh, funny" or "Wrong, noob!" I offered relevant information, for example, with the information about Invisible Blade, it frees up some feat slots. Maybe we can put something in those?

herrhauptmann
2009-06-28, 02:16 AM
If you have something valid to say, the mods want you to post a new thread, witha link to the old one.

There was a thread a few days ago where someone did just what you described, rezzed a thread only to give a smartass comment. It got locked and deleted.

Ehh, I missed the last line of your rez post, just skipped right over it. Whoops.

Talic
2009-06-28, 02:27 AM
Any Sneak Attack build worth its salt will have the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness). Blindsight/Tremorsense and the like shut you down. This shuts them down.

Thespianus
2009-06-28, 02:33 PM
Now, I know we shouldn't bring magic into the thread, but...

..what if we (briefly) brought magic into the thread? ;)


Just a straight up Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10 would
give you a non-magical SA of 9D6 and a magical sneak attack (Hunter's Eye-spell) of 7D6 on top of the 9D6, completely without optimization. Oh, and you would get 9th level spells too at caster level 20. ;)

If you start fiddling with this (skip 3 levels of Rogue, get caster level boosts, etc), I'm sure it can be pushed to 23-25D6 without breaking a sweat on the cheese.

The BAB would be awful, ofcourse, but persistent Wraithstrike cheese might take care of that. :)

Deophite18
2009-07-02, 05:14 PM
oh! i forgot about all of the classes that give you not full SA progression, but +1d6 at first level. thank you!

Don't think this one was mentioned yet, but Guild Thief Prestige Class from Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting Book gets SA on 1st level.

Also id take a level of fighter picking Improved Critical as the bonus feat.
You could use a scimitar and your threat range would be 15-20. Then if you take telling blow, sneak attack damage is added every time you critical. Combined with Craven and the massive SA dmg from all the other classes whenever you critical you would annihilate whoever. Especially if you have 5-6 attacks per full round.

Blue Warlock
2009-07-02, 07:01 PM
Add in the Rogues Vest in MiC for another 1d6 sneak attack damage, I think it costs around 20k

quick_comment
2009-07-02, 07:30 PM
Isnt there an eberron feat that lets you use action points for more sneak attack?

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-02, 08:23 PM
Bracers of the Hunter 8,500 gold, Secrets of Xen'Drik
add +1d6 when you make a sneak attack or sudden strike
So maybe if you could get both you could gain +2d6 damage.
It also gives more benefits.

Also if we want to use magic, it would be tough to do:
Get an item of Metamorphosis at 25th caster level. Either a custom magic item or a Dorje.

Then use it to change into a Gloom your dex goes to 46. You gain some other abilities but the big thing is this:

13d6 Sneak Attack as an Extraordinary Special attack ability.

Lord Loss
2009-07-12, 12:23 PM
Complete Scoundrel Gives you

Avenging Executioner (Sudden Strike at First level) , Mountebank and Cloaked Dancer get sneak attack at level 2.

Drow of The underdark (you need to be a Drow) Gives

Dread Fang of Lolth (senak at Level 1) and Eye of Lolth (Sneak at Level 2)

Xenogears
2009-07-12, 01:29 PM
How can no one have mentioned being a Dvati? Sure you get +1 LA but now theres two of you to sneak attack.

Enochi
2009-07-25, 11:15 PM
I believe for Most sneak attack die in one blow the Factotum actually is the winner.

Factotum 17/ Human Paragon 2/ Rogue 1
1: Font of Inspiration
Font of Inspiration (Human)
Font of Inspiration (Flaw)
Font of Inspiration (Flaw)
3: Font of Inspiration
6: Font of Inspiration
9: Font of Inspiration
12: Font of Inspiration
15: Font of Inspiration
18: Font of Inspiration
19: Font of Inspiration

Total of 74 Inspiration points and 1 sneak attack die means 1 strike can be
75d6 sneak attack

Also note that Iaijutsu is inclass for all but 1 level of this build.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-26, 12:17 AM
Total of 74 Inspiration points and 1 sneak attack die means 1 strike can be
75d6 sneak attack ... but only if you ignore the RAW.
... you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. The class feature description is very consistent in its use of the singular. You can spend one inspiration point for Cunning Strike. That's it. There's nothing in the rules allowing you to spend more inspiration points for each use of Cunning Strike.

Enochi
2009-07-26, 12:55 AM
... but only if you ignore the RAW. The class feature description is very consistent in its use of the singular. You can spend one inspiration point for Cunning Strike. That's it. There's nothing in the rules allowing you to spend more inspiration points for each use of Cunning Strike.

Of course you can only use 1 point per Cunning Strike however you can activate Cunning Strike as many time as you want to and sneak attack die stack. All of the other entries in the Factotum abilities either list limits of times you can activate the abilities or if they dont stack. There is nothing like that for Cunning Strike.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-26, 01:44 AM
Of course you can only use 1 point per Cunning Strike however you can activate Cunning Strike as many time as you want to
You're making that up. There is no statement to that effect in the rules.

All of the other entries in the Factotum abilities either list limits of times you can activate the abilities or if they dont stack. There is nothing like that for Cunning Strike. There's no rule that allows you to use Cunning Strike more than once per sneak attack. Here's what you wish they had written for Cunning Strike:
Cunning insight does not require an action, and you can use it as often as you wish during your turn or others’ turns—provided that you have the inspiration points to spend. As you can plainly see, there is a precedent for allowing multiple inspiration points for a Factotum's class feature, and an example of how that is stated. The rules do not include such a statement for Cunning Strike.