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mithrawnudo
2009-05-16, 09:42 PM
In a stunningly nerdy move, I am attempting (and actually working on currently) a D20 system based on Magic the Gathering. I foresee this move relegating me to the underworld of even this board. However, in an attempt to solicit help or to in order to boost my self-esteem, I am asking for and offering a few things. These are in order of most wanted to least wanted.

HELP:
1. With the rules. - I would like to ask anyone who can or wants to help me with the rules for the game. Not just the over-rules but the more obscure ones, like when you counter a spell, if or how should the countered wizard be able to nullify the spell.
2. Making monsters. - This one is a biggie. It will most likely be the easiest part, but with the number of creatures covered and the limits of my time, I can't make many at a time.
3. Balancing things. - Spells, creatures, abilities/feats.
4. Making spells. - Same as monsters.
5. Anything else you can think of. - Criticism or whatever.

OFFERING:
1. Everything that I've done so far.

Thanks for anyone who wants to contribute or wants the material.

CLASSES


CLASSES
Soldier
Abilities
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are the soldier most prized abilities.
Alignment
Any
Color
None

HD: d10
Soldier
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat.

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat.

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Bonus Feat.

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Exalted +1.

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat.

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat.

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Bonus Feat and Exalted +2.

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|


12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4| Bonus Feat.

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4| Bonus Feat.

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Exalted +3.

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5| Bonus Feat.

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6| Bonus Feat.

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Bonus Feat and Exalted +4. [/table]


Class Skills: A Soldier’s class skills are: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifer) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Profiency: Soldiers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armor, and all shields.



Knight
Abilities
Strength, Wisdom, and Constitution make a Knight great.
Alingment
Good.
Color
Non-black and usually white. Bound to up to 2 colors.

HD: d8
Knight
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Exalted +1, detect Black Alignment, Smite Evil 1/day, Oath of the Light.

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Lay on Hands.

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Aura of Concentration, Gain 0 Mana.

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|Exalted +2, turn undead, Gain 2 Mana.

5th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Smite Evil 2/day, Knight Mount, Gain 2 Mana.

6th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+2|Aura of Honor, Gain 0 Mana.

7th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Gain 2 Mana.

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+2|Exalted +3, Gain 2 Mana.

9th|
+7/+2|
+6|
+3|
+3| Aura of Health, Gain 0 Mana.

10th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+3| Smite Evil 3/day, Gain 2 Mana.

11th|
+9/+4|
+7|
+3|
+3| Gain 2 Mana

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|Exalted +4, Aura of Energy, Gain 0 Mana.

13th|
+10/+5|
+8|
+4|
+4|Gain 2 Mana

14th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+4|
+4|Gain 2 Mana.

15th|
+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+5|
+5| Smite Evil 4/day, Aura of Power, Gain 0 Mana.

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Exalted +5, Gain 2 Mana.

17th|
+13/+8/+3|
+10|
+5|
+5|Gain 2 Mana

18th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6| Aura of Endurance, Gain 0 Mana.

19th|
+15/+10/+5|
+11|
+6|
+6|Gain 2 Mana

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Exalted +6, Smite Evil 5/day, Gain 2 Mana. [/table]

Oath of the Light: A Knight must be good. A Knight must do no Evil. A Knight must strive to uphold the tenants of goodness. A Knight must protect innocents and those who walk in the Light. A Knight must never work with those who do not walk in the Light. A Knight must obey the Lord of the land, unless this interferes with the earlier tenants.

Detect Black Alignment: At will a Knight can use the spell Detect Black Alignment without paying its mana cost.

Smite Evil: Anytime before an attack on an evil object, a Knight may add his Wisdom bonus to his attack roll, and if the attack hits, he may add his Knight levels to his damage roll.

Lay on Hands: Starting at the 2nd level a Knight with a Wisdom score of 12 or higher can heal wounds by touch. Each day he can heal an amount of health equal to his Knight level X his Wisdom bonus.

Turn Undead: A 4th level or higher Knight gains the ability to turn undead 1 + his Wisdom bonus per day. He turns the undead as a Priest of 3 levels lower than would.

Aura of Concentration: A Knight becomes immune to fear and fascination, and all allies within 10 feet gain a +4 bonus on saving rolls against fear and fascination. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Aura of Honor: A Knight can no longer kill an unarmed opponent, but gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against creatures of equal or greater level. In addition the Knight takes a -4 attack roll on enemies of lesser level. Allies within 10 feet gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls against creatures of greater level. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Aura of Health: A Knight is immune to all diseases, magical or otherwise. Allies within 10 feet gain a +2 bonus to all saving rolls against diseases. This Aura does not effect poisons or sleep. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Aura of Energy: All spells a Knight casts cost 1 color-less less. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Aura of Power: A Knight gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls against creatures of equal or lesser level. Allies within 10 feet gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls against creature of lesser level. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Aura of Endurance: A Knight remains conscious at health less than 0, but can only make one standard action per turn. Allies within 10 feet gain a +4 bonus on stabilization rolls. This ability functions only when a Knight is conscious.

Class Skills: A Knight’s class skills are: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spell Craft (Int)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifer) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Profiency: Knights are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armor, and all shields except tower shields.

Color Bindings: Knights are bound to 2 or less colors, non-black. A Knight must declare those colors at the beginning of the game, and cannot choose mana or spells from any other list. A Knight may not cast color-less spells. A Knight gains a spell level starting at the 3rd level and every 3 levels after that. Ex. 3, 6, 9…

Ellye
2009-05-16, 10:00 PM
First things first, what setting are you wanting to use? The entire cosmology of MtG is just too big, it's better to start small. I suggest Ravnica, since Dominaria is also too big. This narrows down a lot on what creatures and spells you'll want to "convert".

Unless you want the players to be Planeswalker, which I personally don't think would be a good idea...

mithrawnudo
2009-05-16, 10:06 PM
For the story it will be entirely my own. So all creatures and all spells are go. For the conversions it will on a need basis, like a damage spell, I will convert Fireball, Volcanic Hammer, Flame Javelin, ect...

And no PC planeswalkers. The Planeswalkers will be in the campaign, just NPC.

Baron Corm
2009-05-17, 04:44 PM
Could you be more specific with what help you need? And could you just edit everything you've done so far into your first post? That would make it easier for us to know where to start.

Athaniar
2009-05-18, 04:49 AM
Magic the Gathering d20, huh? This sparks my interest.

No PC Planeswalkers is a good decision. Let PCs be normal characters. There are already plenty of classes in MtG, use them. Also, non-setting-specific is good, too. And I definitiely think you should use the five colors instead of alignment, I like them much better. Then it'll be alignment that effects your spells... Interesting to see how that would work, but I'm sure it's possible.

For your information, the existing classes, according to the Gatherer, are Advisor (NPC class?), Archer, Artificer, Assassin, Cleric, Barbarian, Berserker, Druid, Knight, Mercenary (this one also NPC?), Minion (probably NPC, too), Monk, Mystic, Ninja, Nomad, Pirate, Rebel, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Shaman, Soldier, Spellshaper, Warrior, and Wizard.

Ellye
2009-05-18, 05:19 AM
And I definitiely think you should use the five colors instead of alignment, I like them much better.Seconded. The five colors of magic do a much, much better job at categorizing characters and actions than the D&D Alignment system.
Read the five articles about the five colors philosophies by Mark Rosewater, if you hadn't already:
It's Not Easy Being Green (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr43)
The Great White Way (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr57)
True Blue (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr84)
In The Black (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr109)
Seeing Red (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr133)

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 10:12 AM
I'll help. I tried doing this before, but I could never really get the magic system to work well. My idea was it would work a bit like psionics... you have a mana pool that gets replenished every day, and spells cost mana. And just like in the card game, the spell costs, e.g. two red mana and three colorless mana. Each time you level up you can choose what type of mana you gain (possibly with certain restrictions, e.g. maybe you can only gain a new color every five levels or so).

Most of the spells in the player's handbook don't really fit in as MTG type spells, and the divine/arcane divide needs to be broken. This is the most troubling part to me, that casters who take for example red and white would essentially be a cleric and a glass cannon. Also, counterspelling needs to be considered carefully to make sure it's good, but not overpowered (actually, in true MTG fashion it should be the most broken spells in the game).

One thing to consider is that alignment could affect your ability to cast spells. For example:
Black - evil
Red - chaotic
umm.... white -lawful
green - good (these ones are a bit fuzzier)
blue - neutral

And you can cast spells up to one alignment away at full power, but casting spells on your alignment gets a boost. So for example if you were lawful good, you'd be better at casting green and white spells, but be unable to cast black and red spells. Lawful neutral would be good at white spells, and be able to cast green, black and blue spells, but no red. It doesn't quite work as written, but it feels like it could have good flavor and prevent five color cheese while still allowing a class that "permits" casting any color

Xvos
2009-05-18, 11:35 AM
For your information, the existing classes, according to the Gatherer, are Advisor (NPC class?), Archer, Artificer, Assassin, Cleric, Barbarian, Berserker, Druid, Knight, Mercenary, Minion, Monk, Mystic, Ninja, Nomad, Pirate, Rebel, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Shaman, Soldier, Spellshaper, Warrior, and Wizard.

I'd trim this list by seperating it out a bit into NPCs (which won't need full classes, or neccessarily anything) and PCs which will.

My Suggestions:

NPC/Null
Advisor
Berserker
Minion
Nomad
Rebel
Scout

PC
Archer
Assassin
Cleric
Barbarian
Druid
Knight
Mercenary
Monk
Mystic
Ninja
Pirate
Rogue
Samurai
Shaman
Soldier
Spellshaper
Warrior
Wizard

Then split them up further into "basic" and "advanced classes" (Think prestige classes or paragon paths). I'd seperate the "advanced classes" based on prerequisite "basic" classes (again similar to paragon paths).

Basic
Mystic
Rogue
Warrior

Advanced

Mystic
Cleric
Druid
Shaman
Spellshaper
Wizard

Rogue
Archer
Assassin
Monk
Ninja
Pirate

Warrior
Barbarian
Knight
Mercenary
Samurai
Soldier

Now focus on ideas for the basic classes first, what kind of mechanic are you looking for?

Basic
Mystic
Rogue
Warrior

I'm willing to help with rules stuff, especially if you are iwlling to let me see what you have done so far. I'm reasonably solid on making rules (I've built several rules systems ground up, one of which an old group of mine is still using).

Baron Corm
2009-05-18, 01:54 PM
The five colors of magic do a much, much better job at categorizing characters and actions than the D&D Alignment system.

Actually, the five colors of magic are pretty close to the 5 "extreme" alignments (excluding NG, NE, LN, and CN). If you read the philosophy articles, they fit pretty well in this manner:

Black - Chaotic Evil ("Black wants what it wants and will use any means necessary to get it.")

Red - Chaotic Good ("If red is happy, it celebrates. If red is sad, it cries. If red is angry, it smashes things. Life is very simple for red. It does what it feels.") ("Red cares about others. At least the ones to which it has some emotional ties. And red will go to great lengths to help or protect its loved ones. This doesn't mean that red isn't somewhat selfish. Emotions, by their very nature, do put one's own needs first, but it does mean that red at times will think about others.")

Green - Neutral ("At times nature is gentle and loving. At other times it is fierce and harmful. While every other color fights to change the world, green battles to keep it the same.")

White - Lawful Good ("By making strict rules and laws, white can ensure that things stay in control.") ("White wants what is best for the whole.")

Blue - Lawful Evil ("Blue is a slow, methodical, passive color. Those that rush to action without giving proper time to think through their actions gnaw at blue’s very core. When blue encounters such sophomoric behavior, it does what any good parent would do, it attempts to assert control to try and make the creature in question act they way blue knows it should.") ("Blue also uses its intellect to trick the opponent. Blue has no qualms with winning through confusion.")

Xefas
2009-05-18, 02:33 PM
I would say that each color holds 3ish separate tenets within it. You can be Black without being stab-stab-die-die rape the corpses by focusing on the Independence part of it, rather than the Sadism part of it.

White's lone tenet is Goodness, but its tenet that connects to Green is Interdependence, and its tenet that connects to Blue is Order.

(You can be White without being good, by being more Blue-minded or Green-minded)

Blue's lone tenet is Progression, but its tenet that connects to White is Order and its tenet that connects to Black is Subterfuge.

Black's lone tenet is Maliciousness, but its tenet that connects to Blue is Subterfuge, and its tenet that connects to Red is Independence.

Red's lone tenet is Destruction, but its tenet that connects to Black is Independence, and its tenet that connects to Green is Savagery.

Green's lone tenet is Naturalism, but its tenet that connects to Red is savagery, and the tenet that connects to White is interdependence.

Waspinator
2009-05-18, 03:19 PM
Modeling it after psionics sounds like a good idea, or at least going with the similar spell point system rather than spell-slots-per-day. Maybe have there be five base classes, with each getting its own mana pool that do not stack? You would not just have power points or spell points. You'd have blue or red or whatever mana, just like in MtG. You could even encourage multi-classing by having the maximum level of spell you can learn limited by character level, not any individual class level. Then have it so that there would be, for example, level 9 white spells that you could access to by staying single-class with the white mana user but also level 9 red-white spells that you would need to have levels in both colors' classes in order to have the correct mana to use.

In terms of what kind of spells and abilities each color could get to spend their mana on, here's some ideas:

White: Healing and melee combat. Similar to standard cleric.
Green: Heavy on melee combat and a little healing. Similar to fighter, crusader, warblade, paladin, psychic warrior, etc..
Red: Direct damage. Stick all of the blasting spells here
Blue: Control. This and red would have many standard wizard spells split between them.
Black: Necromancy and sneakiness. I suggest something like a necromancy version of the beguiler class.

Edit: Typo

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 03:40 PM
I like it... I hadn't really considered trying to mix in multi colored spells, but obviously that should be a goal.

I strongly disagree with the characterization of black as chaotic (see: Phyrexia, the Cabal). More often than not, black ends up being the big bad organization, which is LE. And blue definitely isn't evil. The more I think about it the warier I am of assigning alignments to green blue and red, since they're kind of supposed to be the more wishy washy colors alignment-wise. OTOH white is pretty much (emphasis on pretty much, there are exceptions) supposed to be good, and black is pretty much supposed to be evil, so something there could be done.

Xvos, I don't think the advancement system is really that great here because it gets hung up on MtG's unique spellcasting system (how do you advance to a druid? By casting green spells? Which you already were doing as a mystic... the line is not so clear cut as it is in many other settings)

Eldan
2009-05-18, 04:12 PM
I'd say that certain colours certainly tend towards alignments, but are not entirely defined by them.

Still... in my opinion, and going by MaRo's descriptions:
Red is chaotic neutral, with sometimes destructive evil tendencies.
Black is neutral evil, with tendencies changing towards either lawful or chaos, depending on the creature or organisation in question.
White is Lawful Good, not much of a question here, with some of it tending towards more neutral good.
Blue is most often lawful neutral, but sometimes has true neutral tendencies.
Green can't really decide if it wants to be true neutral or chaotic good.


And now something constructive:
The class idea suggested above is a good one, and you could start with something close to D20 moderns basic classes. (Except those are boring.)

Now, this being MtG, most players will probably want to have some magic, but I suggest dividing abilities in basically three parts:

Magic, Special abilities and Combat abilities, with one of the archetypes (Mystic, Rogue, Warrior) being especially good in one of them.

EENick
2009-05-18, 04:26 PM
Is the goal here to just adapt the feel of magic IE: Pyrixians, Spirit Wars, Guilds, color wheel or are we trying to adapt the cards to D&D or create an MTG type magic system, all three or something more then that?

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 06:39 PM
The main goal would be to implement the base class/magic system; everything after that's just filler

Lady Tialait
2009-05-18, 07:50 PM
Hmm, and interesting approach.

I group of my friends play a MTG game that we play the Planeswalkers. Playing the monsters seemed kinda silly after all even the books are about the big powerful planeswalkers.

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 08:39 PM
Hmm, and interesting approach.

I group of my friends play a MTG game that we play the Planeswalkers. Playing the monsters seemed kinda silly after all even the books are about the big powerful planeswalkers.

That's not true... the books include planeswalkers, but most of the time it's just about... people

Ellye
2009-05-18, 09:13 PM
I would make it something like this (just a quick sketch):

Color Wheel Alignment System: each characters chooses a primary color and a secondary color. Those choices should be in line with the character concept, and it will affect his special abilities.
Characters start each combat with a complete mana pool (amount of mana depends on character class and level - for multiclass characters use the highest one).
To use an ability of her primary color, the character must spend the amount of Mana listed in the ability cost. To use an ability of her secondary color, the character must spend the amount of Mana listed in the ability cost plus one. To use an ability of other colors, the character must spend the amount of mana listed plus two.
A character may replenish X mana points with a full round action (X is a number that would need serious playtesting to be determined).
Some abilities (specially abilities that can be useful outside of combat) have a limit on how many times they can be used per day.

----
The class Scout/Rogue (one single class, the title depends on the primary color) for example could have improved feinting abilities as a white abilitiy, sneak attacks as a black ability, landwalking (negates movement penalties) as a green ability, invisibility as a blue ability and first strike (initiative bonus) as a red ability.

Flickerdart
2009-05-18, 09:17 PM
And elves. So many elves...

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 09:41 PM
I would make it something like this (just a quick sketch):

Color Wheel Alignment System: each characters chooses a primary color and a secondary color. Those choices should be in line with the character concept, and it will affect his special abilities.
Characters start each combat with a complete mana pool (amount of mana depends on character class and level - for multiclass characters use the highest one).
To use an ability of her primary color, the character must spend the amount of Mana listed in the ability cost. To use an ability of her secondary color, the character must spend the amount of Mana listed in the ability cost plus one. To use an ability of other colors, the character must spend the amount of mana listed plus two.
A character may replenish X mana points with a full round action (X is a number that would need serious playtesting to be determined).
Some abilities (specially abilities that can be useful outside of combat) have a limit on how many times they can be used per day.

So there wouldn't be any distinction between different colors of mana inside of the character's mana pool?

Waspinator
2009-05-18, 10:52 PM
I haven't had a chance yet to read this in full so I can't judge it too much, but Google searching found me this:
http://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/magic-the-gathering-rpg-download/
http://www.box.net/shared/d8xsciptbp

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 11:07 PM
I actually found that on google about half an hour ago and determined it to be useless. You use actual MtG cards to help determine your character's power, after that I stopped reading

Ellye
2009-05-19, 12:23 AM
So there wouldn't be any distinction between different colors of mana inside of the character's mana pool?Yes, I prefer it this way, to minimize bookepping.
Just a suggestion, though.

Athaniar
2009-05-19, 07:15 AM
FYI, official descriptions of all colors' tendencies:

White
”You value law, order, community and light. You love to protect the social order and the rule of law. At your best, you are just and protective. At your worst, you are authoritarian and dogmatic.”

Blue
”You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold.”

Black
”You value power, ambition, and darkness. You love power at any cost, and are a corrupting influence on those around you. At your best, you are resourceful and unashamed. At your worst, you are parasitic and amoral.”

Red
”You value freedom, impulse, emotion and fire. You love instant gratification and acting on your gut feeling. At your best, you are passionate and decisive. At your worst, you are shortsighted and destructive.”

Green
”You value growth, life, adaption and nature. You love to hunt, mate, kill, and eat - to you, that’s all there is. At your best, you are instinctual and unpretentious. At your worst, you are vicious and unthinking.”

Dienekes
2009-05-19, 08:35 AM
You know Satyr made a usable magic point system for his Serpents and Sewers game that could probably be retooled as a mana pool system.

EENick
2009-05-19, 09:32 AM
Well it seems to me there are two basic factors that are hard to over come.

Usually in D&D you start with a stock amount of power and slowly drain it. In MTG you build power. Themeatically a problem.

Two most of the mechanics of MTG are based around the deck and hand size.

Sure a few abilities like Kicker are pretty easy to do.

But what about Flashback, Cascade, Domain etc?

Well to solve this I'd suggest we force walkers to memorize spells (ala put them into there deck) and still spend mana/spell points to cast them. That way you could capture some of MTG's spell mechanics but keep it close to D&D's system of magic.

So Billy Redmage is level 13 and (among other spells) Billy has Firebolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189236), Urza's Rage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23087) and two Glacial Rays (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=80245) prepared and he can draw up to 13 red mana per turn.

So this turn he could....cast firebolt and use flashback to get a quicked second spell even though he doesn't have it memorized anymore. Use Urza's Rage with Kicker, or cast Glacial Ray and splice the other onto it.

Under this system I could see the following mechanics working to various levels of success.

Cycling - The Wizard looses his spell for something akin to a wild surge.

Entwine - Pretty much stay the same. Comes and spells with two effects and lets you get both.

Kicker - Mostly the same, just lets you spend extra mana on spells each turn.

Madness - Lets you cast the spell in place of a spell that fizzled.

Buyback - Same as before lets you keep a spell after casting it rather then loosing memorization, though I would suggest we not use this one if they get mana per turn instead of a mana base.

Flashback - Lets them use a quickened version of the a spell they just cast this round.

Storm - I suggest in storms case we scale it down to add one to your caster level for each other spell level cast this turn. IE a someone casts fire ball at Billy Redmage. Billy lives and fires back magic missle storm. Billy casts that spell at +3 levels so as it her were a 16th level caster instead of a 13rd level one.

Fading - Basically all summoned creatures in D&D already have this ability. We just lets our mages manipulate the turns the creature can stay to activate special powers. IE: Billy Redmage summons a goblin that will last for 10 round. Billy can force the Goblin to spit fire in exchange for shortening the durration by 1 round.

Cascade - Allows you to cast a second spell from a lower level at random.

Convoke - Allows allies to give up there turn in order to add a meta-magic feat to your spell.

Conspire - Allows allies to give up there turn in order to copy the spell.

Dredge X - Allows you to call a forgotten spell in exchange for X spell levels. IE: Billy wants to remember a spell with dredge 5 so he forgets a 3rd and 2nd level spell.

Prowl - If the wizard did melee damage to a foe then they can cast this spell quickened for its prowl cost.

Replicate - Basically same as the original ability allowing you to copy the spell so long as you have mana to pay for the copies.

Retrace - Same as flashback but doesn't need to be played on the same turn as the spell was cast.

Ripple - 7% chance of the spell copying itself.

Splice - Possible to add this spells effect when casting a second spell. Possibly a meta magic feat.

Suspend - Basically it already exists in magic as Delayed Blast Fireball.

Transmute - Allows you to swap the spell for a spell of the same level.

Grandeur - Burn multiple memorizations for a larger effect.

Unadaptable
Most Creature only abilities
Scry X
Threshold - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Echo - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Imprint
Affinity
Indestructible
Phasing - Adaptable but lame
Amplify
Aura Swap
Delve
Epic - Adaptable but lame
Forecast - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Gravestorm
Haunt
Hideaway
Imprint
Recover - redundant with buyback
Split Second
Hellbent

As for the class.

I suggest they are mostly like the wizard class with the exception each level or maybe every other they gain an ability that ads one more mana to their mana pool they color having to be chosen at the time they level.

Dienekes
2009-05-19, 10:23 AM
I don't think they're gonna change everything as is from one system to another. As I don't think they're trying to make the characters the all-powerful mages that play the deck, but rather play an rpg that is based on the mtg world.

Hell if they did it the other way certain spells would be way too powerful *terminate would rock even more than it already does*

One of the things that would have to be accounted for is that in the stories is that most seem to be at least partial casters.

So I would give 3 varying levels of spellcasting, but every class games some spell abilities.

EENick
2009-05-19, 10:37 AM
I don't think they're gonna change everything as is from one system to another. As I don't think they're trying to make the characters the all-powerful mages that play the deck, but rather play an rpg that is based on the mtg world.

Hell if they did it the other way certain spells would be way too powerful *terminate would rock even more than it already does*

One of the things that would have to be accounted for is that in the stories is that most seem to be at least partial casters.

So I would give 3 varying levels of spellcasting, but every class games some spell abilities.

Nope I asked just to be sure about that.


The main goal would be to implement the base class/magic system; everything after that's just filler

Really Terminate is really pretty close to Dismissal in D&D terms since it only effects summoned creatures. Keep in mind, creatures are not players for terms of conversion. Only spells that effect Walkers would likely be able to effect PCs.

Jogi
2009-05-19, 11:09 AM
I've got some ideas from the ideas everyone had:

- On character creation the player choses one color. He will be able to cast spells of chosen collor and of those colors that are adjacent to the chosen one. Example: if you choose green, you'll also be able to cast red and white spells, but not black or blue.

- Characters have mana acording to their level. This value should be defined by level and class. This way, a fighter would have mana, but not as much as a wizard.

- On character creation the character must distribute his level-class amount of mana beetwen his avaliable colors. Example: lets say a lv 1 Fighter gets 3 mana. If the chosen color is blue, I could give my fighter 1W, 1U and 1B.

- On lv-up characters distribute the new mana gained amongst their avaliable colors. Example: if my Fighter goes to lv2 and thus receives one new mana, I could make it have 2W, 1U, and 1B. Example 2: my wizard lv 1 (which has 2U, 2W and 1B) receives 3 new mana when he lv's up, and thus he distributes it like this: 4U, 2W and 2B.

- A character can't have a max mana of an adjacent color higher than his main color. Example: if chosen color is white, you can't have your max pool 2U, 1W and 1G; it would have to be 1U, 2W, and 1G.

- At start of day the character recovers his mana. Example: said wizard has an mana max of 4U, 2W and 2B. When he rests for 8 hours he will recover his mana fully. Also, would be nice if a small rest (like that one players might take beetwen encounters) would recover 1 mana. Meditation could also be required for some magic-oriented classes, like wizard (you could say they need to prepare themselves since they deal with much more energy [mana] than a fighter does).

About spells mana cost:

- A spell mana cost is equal to that spell's level. If that spell's color is different from your main color, it will cost +1 incolor mana.

- A multicolor spell costs +1 incolor mana per adjacent color involved.

- The color of the mana that needs to be spent is determined by the spell color. If the color of the spell is your main color you can choose to spent 1 of the required mana as incolor mana (any color). Thus, a lv 2 green spell (with main color being green) would consume 2G or 1G+1incolor. A lv3 red spell (non-main) would cost 3R.

- Mana could also be required for some feats to be used, thus allowing fightes to use their mana.

About "mana-multicassing":

- Using this model I suggested you'd never be able to cast spells from two colors (those that are direct oposing your main color). Yet this could be very limiting, althought it should'nt be easy for a character to be able to have acess to 4 colors of magic. I'd say this could be an epic level feat or maybe even limited to some prestige classes. Maybe we could create a "Wielder Of The Primordial" class, which has acess to 4 mana. Nevertheless, I think acess to all 5 colors shouldn't be given to players through game mecanics. This should be demi-god-like powers and the players should have acess to it only through campaign achievement or if his DM says so.

About mana & alignment:

- I don't think a character's color should limit his alignment. But I do belive that some colors have more to do with some alignments.

- I suggest that we say each color has a favored alignment and if a characters choses a color and his alignment is that of the color, he would somewhat get a benefit from that. This could be extra mana, or simple +1 to saves against oposite colors.

- Using this system I can easily imagine a black paladin, that uses his might to imbue death in his blows as he cuts through the enemies of justice.


Oh well, I'll post later If I have any other ideas. :D

Lady Tialait
2009-05-19, 11:48 AM
Wait, I think what Jogi is doing is awesome. But, let's take a pause here.

If you are going to make a MTG system that the PCs are NOT planeswalkers, please take in to account that everyone not a planeswalker in the novels had access to Mana but only in a limited way.

Most could not cast spells, not even most main personalities.

Examples:

Jhoria (http://askthejudgemtg.com/future%20sight/jhoira_of_the_ghitu.jpg) was well liked, and respected by many planswalkers, and she was known to do a little bit of casting here and there. She couldn't do much, but she was very old and powerful hence she could do a load of different things. (She is pretty powerful, and almost a planeswalker. Infact she almost qualifies under the new definition.)

Then we have Gerrand (http://bidwicketlister.com/Item/C/Collectible_Card_Games/Magic_the_Gathering/Singles/Apocalypse/33255_1L.JPEG), he was fantastic. His mana manipulation wasn't so much. He could use a bit of it, you could tell. He was able to channel it to do some MINOR things. To empower himself and such. (ToB anyone?)

And onto my personal favorite: Oona (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/16317.jpg). She was able to wipe the mind of every creature on a whole plane of existence, and she was able to turn it into two planes that took up the same place and population! This is truly a powerful creature. But, not a planeswalker. She prolly could fight the current planeswalkers and win, pure magical force is amazing.

None of those I listed could cast spells like "Terminate" or "Giant Growth" then again they aren't black/red or green creatures are they?

Can you seriously see Gerrand summoning a 1/1 solider?

Can you seriously see Jhoira casting Cloven Casting?

Can you really see Oona casting Spellweaver Volute?

And all the examples I have given have one VERY intresting weakness, Terminate. You can do it on any of them. Because they are not Planeswalkers.

That is why if I was to make a system, the only way to make it fullfill anything beyond playing in the awesome settings made by Wizards for each set would be to play planeswalkers.

Now...my 2cp has been given.

Jogi
2009-05-19, 12:12 PM
Tialait is right. Many people can't even cast spells at all. Thus it leaves us to decide:

- In this game, are the players going to be heroes? Or are they common folk? If they are heroes I think they should be able to channel mana and use - fighters would do small use of it, but they could probably use it to enhance their physical combats, and wizards and magic-doers would probably be limited to using it to cast spells. If they are not heroes, then wizard would be a very limited class and fighters would do some tricks here and there but nothing amazing.

The way I see things:

I can see Gerrard spending one white mana to get +1 to his save throws.
I can see a rogue spending a green mana to become more agile.
I can see a wizard using much of his power to shoot a fireball at his oponents.
I can see this because I think of characters as heroes, not mere persons in the world. Also, because instead of limiting the characters I'd this: make power and acess to mana avaliable to players but raise the planeswalkers powers beyond their reach.

Thus, If a player could shoot a fireball, a planeswalker could shoot a fireball across planes. (this sounds like too much, but it's just an example to let you see the idea).

Also, classes should be very limiting when it come to acess to spells or habilities. I wouldn't give Gerrard a summon hability, but would give him something related to spending mana and recovering/get benefits or even adding damage to his next blow.

EENick
2009-05-19, 01:01 PM
Well just to give a sort of compair.

In D&D PCs are super heroes. They are much stronger, faster, can take more damage etc. etc. then NPCs. Sure NPCs can be exceptional, but they are never going to be close to PC. The PCs are supermen while NPCs are at best things like generic shield agents.

In MTG Walkers are the super heroes. They were powered down to make this role more narratively accessable 'cause they need things to be able to challenge Walkers. The reason the old novels were so stuck on people like Kamahl was because nothing could touch a walker so they had to either come up with ubergods for them to fight like with Urza or focus on some minions which is what they usually did. MTG depowered Walkers so they can actually have adventures and make them more relatable. I think you are pretty much stuck with PCs being Walkers if you really want to keep in in line with MTG.

MTG is at its heart about two wizards fighting it out. Players don't attack with swords themselves they forge them in the hearts of stars and givem the minions to fight of them. Gerrard really is just a warrior whom picked up a few tricks, maybe took a level in sorcerer or something. I really don't think you need a whole new class if you wanted to play a character like that.

Now that said I like the idea of having mana power feats and abilities for some more physical builds but really aren't you just rehashing the Psionic Warrior class? So far all the suggestions along these lines seem very similar to the PW class.

How is a theif who uses mana to become more agile all that different from a theif who took wild tallent or a level in Psi-warrior and picked up some Psi feats and abilities that allow him an agility boost?

Now don't get me wrong! When there have been some good alternate core classes like what was done with the Everquest Handbook or Monte Cook's Diamond Throne setting in Arcana Unearthed (or was it Unearthed Arcana?) but so far I think we're closer to reinventing the wheel then making a solid alternate set of core classes.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 01:19 PM
Honestly, I'm going to say that the White Wolf system might be a better base system for such an endeavor, if you know anything about it. It has a much nicer scaling progression...the system from Scion, for example, encompasses everything from Heroes (the children of the gods...often quite weak comparatively) to the Gods themselves within 10 "levels" of power. Costs scale, so getting truly powerful is very difficult.

It even fits nicely with the cards: scaling mana costs equate to more power, so 1 dot is a 1 mana spell, up to 10 dots for the most powerful of spells...the stuff planeswalkers would wield. Instead of spending Legend points (like you do in Scion), you spend Mana points for the same effects. Cross-discipline powers would require (for example...Undermine) at least 2 dots in a Black discipline and 1 dot in a Blue discipline (or whatever color combination is appropriate) to cast.


For example:

A Human Wizard has spent his dots to gain the following powers:

Magma Spray (R) (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175245) -- Magma Spray deals 4 dice of Aggravated Damage to your target.
Shadowfeed (B) (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177473) -- A single corpse you touch is consumed by black flames, and you convert 1 point of Aggravated damage to Lethal damage, or Lethal damage to Bashing damage.
Smash to Smithereens (1R) (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158243) -- Your next attack against an object gains a number of automatic successes equal to your points in Red.

Now that he has the points to spend, he purchases Blightning (1BR) (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917) -- Deal 4 dice of Aggravated Damage to your target. Your target loses mana equal to the square of the successes rolled.

He can purchase Blightning because he has a level 1 Red power and a level 2 Red power, as well as a level 1 Black power. This gives him the effective 1BR he needs to learn Blightning. He could also learn the spell after gaining a R power, a B power, and a W power, for example.

Jogi
2009-05-19, 01:51 PM
Well just to give a sort of compair.

In D&D PCs are super heroes. They are much stronger, faster, can take more damage etc. etc. then NPCs. Sure NPCs can be exceptional, but they are never going to be close to PC. The PCs are supermen while NPCs are at best things like generic shield agents.

In MTG Walkers are the super heroes. They were powered down to make this role more narratively accessable 'cause they need things to be able to challenge Walkers. The reason the old novels were so stuck on people like Kamahl was because nothing could touch a walker so they had to either come up with ubergods for them to fight like with Urza or focus on some minions which is what they usually did. MTG depowered Walkers so they can actually have adventures and make them more relatable. I think you are pretty much stuck with PCs being Walkers if you really want to keep in in line with MTG.

Uhm, okay :D I surrender to players being Walkers.


MTG is at its heart about two wizards fighting it out. Players don't attack with swords themselves they forge them in the hearts of stars and givem the minions to fight of them. Gerrard really is just a warrior whom picked up a few tricks, maybe took a level in sorcerer or something. I really don't think you need a whole new class if you wanted to play a character like that.

Aye, maybe just making rules or creating feats that allow you to use mana to a lot of tricks.


Now that said I like the idea of having mana power feats and abilities for some more physical builds but really aren't you just rehashing the Psionic Warrior class? So far all the suggestions along these lines seem very similar to the PW class.

How is a theif who uses mana to become more agile all that different from a theif who took wild tallent or a level in Psi-warrior and picked up some Psi feats and abilities that allow him an agility boost?

:P Oh, I never took a look at the Psionic Warrior class. I might probably be reinventing it, but wasn't on purpose hehe.

~~

Still, don't really need a new wheel do we? If the old wheel works, keep it turning =D

Oh, also, If I was to do this, I'd try to make it fit into D&D rules in a way that uses a lot things that we already have, even though I don't know how to do that right now lol

EENick
2009-05-19, 02:10 PM
Hmm okay then I see the charter then as something like this.

1. Create MTG Mana Based alternate magic system for D&D.
A. Outline system.
B. Create classes to use system
I. Walkers
II. Specialist walkers???? (Hybrids, specialists etc. etc.)????
III. MTG Prestige Classes
C. Create a spell list for MTG
I. Adapt MTG cards to D&D spells.
II. Adapt Keywords as much as we can.
D. Create feats & skills surrounding MTG mana system.
E. Create artifacts/magic items for said system.

2. Extra Content.
A. Adapt MTG creatures.
I. Monsters
II. Races
III. Non-walker MTG prestige classes
B. NPC
D. Settings
I. Worlds
II. Organizations

Obviously a LOT of content is going to have to fall by the wayside here. MTG is very meta and creature heavy and much of that will be lost, however there is still a lot that we can adapt in the spirit of MTG.

I suggest the first order of business is to try and agree on a model (Or the OP picks one) to develop for mana based magic.

Personally I'll put forward mine again which is a combination of arcane and psi systems. A walker memorizes spells, but still have to pay for them with mana allowing him to activate special abilities on those spells which would be what separates Walkers from Psi or Arcane. Mana would be by turn determined by level. I'd suggest that at the start players get access to one color of mana and have to use meta magic feats to gain access to other colors of mana. Oddball stuff like Snow-Mana would be covered in Prestige classes.

Jogi
2009-05-19, 02:49 PM
Im only scared about one thing when it comes to mana/turn: that it might slow down the game. But maybe it won't, not sure.

Still, wouldn't it let characters cast the same spell, theoretically, unlimited times per day? Also, wouldn't it be more difficult to cover non-combat situations? I mean, how many times per day a sorcerer would be able to cast a non-combat-oriented spell?

EENick
2009-05-19, 03:17 PM
Im only scared about one thing when it comes to mana/turn: that it might slow down the game. But maybe it won't, not sure.

It should actually be easier then spell points. Think of it this way, if its really a problem get yourself some colored poker chips and give yourself the right number/color combination at the start of each round.


Still, wouldn't it let characters cast the same spell, theoretically, unlimited times per day?

That is why we have them memorize spells as well (which is the D&D equivalent of putting it into your deck). If it is really a concern just don't give any spells Buy Back, otherwise once you've cast a spell it is gone just like for wizards.

At least the way I see it Mana is more for them to empower their spells and abilities while casting cost & memorization are there to keep them from being over powered.

Think of it this way, a wizard gets to cast fireball and it does damage according to his level so lets say the wizard is level 7 and it does 7d6 damage. A walker of the same level who casts fireball can choose to put all his mana into the spell and come up with a 6d6 fireball (minus one for its casting cost + X) but he can also choose to pump 4 mana into it and splice on cold ray with the other 3 alternately they could pump 6 mana into the fireball and save one to activate a feat or something. At the end of the round however both the Walker and the Wizard would be down one spell per day.

The advantage of the walker is options since most MTG spells rather have some form of mana fueled meta magic built into them.


Also, wouldn't it be more difficult to cover non-combat situations? I mean, how many times per day a sorcerer would be able to cast a non-combat-oriented spell?

It is certainly true most MTG spells are geared more towards combat but then agian so are most Psi-Spells. I'm sure we could come up with or adapt utility spells too. MTG does have cards like Teleport, Fly, Wall of X and many, many others which could see non-combat use as well as combat.

Kornaki
2009-05-19, 05:38 PM
So for example.... I could have two fireballs and a summon cloud of faeries memorized... and then on my first turn, if I have enough mana I can cast both the cloud of faeries and the fireball, and then I only have one fireball left for the day?

EENick
2009-05-20, 08:06 AM
So for example.... I could have two fireballs and a summon cloud of faeries memorized... and then on my first turn, if I have enough mana I can cast both the cloud of faeries and the fireball, and then I only have one fireball left for the day?

Yea that is the concept.

As long as the spells are balanced it shouldn't be a problem letting players cast Cloud of Faries and Fireball in the same turn since a key point is that MTG spells do not scale based on level but rather based on the mana you put into them. Of course since could of faries untaps your mana it probably isn't a good example here. :P

It occures to me as I write this we might do well to give MTG mages a spell limit per turn table based on their level similar to how warriors gain more attacks as they go up. So that way a 3th level Walker could only cast one spell per turn, but a 16th could cast up to four provided they had the mana to pay for all of them.

That was a 3th level mage couldn't spam out Shocks or something similar but could still hit his foe with a Blightning.

________________________

How about something like this?


Walkers
Game Rule Information
Walkers have the following game statistics
Abilities
Charisma is key to walker’s abilities.
Alingment
Any

HD: d4
Walker
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Mana Focus. Plus one colored mana.

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3| Plus one colored mana.

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3| Plus one colored mana.

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4| Plus one colored mana,

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4| Plus one colored mana, Instant 2.

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Plus one colored mana.

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Plus one colored mana.

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6| Plus one colored mana.

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6| Plus one colored mana.

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7| Plus one colored mana, Instant 3.

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7| Plus one colored mana.

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8| Plus one colored mana.

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8| Plus one colored mana.

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9| Plus one colored mana.

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9| Plus one colored mana, Instant 4.

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10| Plus one colored mana.

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10| Plus one colored mana.

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11| Plus one colored mana.

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11| Plus one colored mana.

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12| Plus one colored mana, Plane Shift once per day. [/table]

spells
{table=head]Level| 1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9

1st|2|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

2nd|3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

3rd|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

4th|4|2|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

5th|4|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

6th|4|4|2|0|0|0|0|0|0

7th|4|4|2|1|0|0|0|0|0

8th|5|4|3|2|0|0|0|0|0

9th|5|5|3|2|1|0|0|0|0

10th|5|5|3|3|2|0|0|0|0

11th|5|5|4|3|2|1|0|0|0

12th|5|5|5|3|3|2|0|0|0

13th|5|5|5|4|3|2|1|0|0

14th|5|5|5|5|3|3|2|0|0

15th|5|5|5|5|4|3|2|1|0


16th|5|5|5|5|5|3|3|2|0

17th|5|5|5|5|5|4|3|2|1

18th|5|5|5|5|5|5|3|3|2

19th|5|5|5|5|5|5|4|3|3

20th|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|4|4 [/table]

Class Skills: A Walkrs's class skills (an the key ability of each skill) are: Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge: (All Skills taken individually), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifer) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Profiency: Walkers are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a walkers’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A walker casts mana spells which are drawn from the walker spell list. A walker must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below) but must also use his or her mana to pay for them at the time of casting.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the walker must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a walker’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the walker’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a walker can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the attached table.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a walker may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spelldeck. While studying, the walker decides which spells to prepare.

Spelldeck: A wizard must study her spelldeck, which is made up of Great Tarot like cards each representing a single spell, each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell she does not have a card for.
A walker begins play with a spellcards for three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the walker has, the spelldeck holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new walker level, she gains two new spell cards of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new walker level) for her spelldeck. At any time, a walker can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellcards to her own deck.

Mana: Mana is the energy drawn from the universe which a walker uses to cast their spells. A walker starts each turn with an amount of colored mana equal to their walker level plus one colorless mana for each plus to their intelligence modifier. In order to cast a spell or activate a mana based ability a walker must spend the correct amount of mana to do so.

Mana Focus (Ex)
Walker Picks a color of mana to gain access to. They may choose from White, Green, Red and Blue.
Walkers may pick a color of mana to align with. While later colors can be gained with feats regardless of alignment this first color must correspond to the casters alignment. It is considered the players primary color.
White – Any Good
Red – Any Chaotic
Green – Any Neutral
Blue – Any Lawful
Black – Any Evil

Colored Mana
At the start of each round a players gains an amount of mana according to their level. The color of the mana for each instance of this ability is chosen at the time the player levels up. Any color the player has access to maybe chosen at that time.

Instant
Instant allows a wizard to cast more than one spell on their turn. Additional spells may only be up to ½ the maximum casting level of the first rounding down. So if a player can cast up to level 9 spells for their first spell there second can only be up to level 4, there third level 2 and their fourth level 1 and if a players first spells is up to level 6 their second is up to level 3 and their third is up to level 1.

Plane Shift
As per the spell.

Feats

Duel Natured (Walker)
Benefit: Allows you to choose a second primary color. You may freely choose between either of your primary colors when leveling up. The second color must still be in keeping with your alignment.

Color Wheel (Walker)
Benefit: Changes one of your mana permanently to another color even if that color doesn’t match your alignment.

________________________

You may know this makes it very hard to play say a Black & White walker or a Five Color spells but I say that is what Prestige Classes are for.

Here are a few attempts at adapting some MTG cards under that system/class.

1st Level

Shock
Red [Lightning]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One bolt of electricity Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You fire a small bolt of electricity at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4 points of electric damage.

Electrostatic Bolt
Red [Lightning]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One bolt of electricity Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You fire a small bolt of electricity at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4 points of electric damage except against constructs to which it does 2d4 damage.

Firebolt
Red [Fire]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One bolt of fire Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You fire a small bolt of fire at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4 points of fire damage. Then you may play its flashback ability if you so choose to fire a second firebolt. Flashback: 4R

Glacial Ray
Red [Arcane]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: 1R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One ray of cold Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d4 points of cold damage.

Splice - As long as you have this spell memorized you gain the spell like ability to pay 1R to add 1d4 points of cold damage to any arcane spell you cast.

Surging Flame
Red [Fire]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: 1R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One bolt of fire Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You fire a small bolt of fire at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4 points of fire damage.
Ripple – When you cast this spell there is a 7% of getting a second bolt of fire.

Aura Barbs
Red [Fire]
Level: Walker 1 Mana: 1R Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One enchanted character and the caster Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

This spell may only be cast on a creature that is currently enchanted. That creature takes 1d4 points of damage per spell level of the enchantment and the caster of the enchantment takes 1d4 points of damage per level of the enchantment.

2nd Level

Char
Red [Fire]
Level: Walker 2 Mana: 2R Casting Time: 1 Standard action Range: Long (400 ft.) Effect: Personal and one creature. Duration: Instantaneous. Saving Throw: Yes Spell Resistance: No

The spell opens a small portal to the plane of elemental fire within you allowing you to channel flame at one target creature. The spell deals 3d8 damage to the target, they may save for half, and 2d4 damage to you (No save).

Jogi
2009-05-20, 11:53 AM
Very nice, but as I was reading it occourred to me: maybe it would be nice if colored mana was made special. I mean, could be good if instead of gaining one colored mana every level, the walker would get a colored mana each 2 or 3 lv's, while in the meantime-levels he gets incolor mana.

I think this would make players make a better use of their mana (as they do in MTG). Also, you could make other classes that don't too much access to mana gain one colored mana each 4-5 lv's (and incolor each odd numbered lv).

Example:

Using colored mana each 2 lvs (walkers) and 4 (other classes) we could have a lv 4 Walker with 2C and 2I. Also another character (of a different class but same lv) would have 1C 2 I.

Okay, the difference wasn't huge but you got the point.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 12:45 PM
Very nice, but as I was reading it occourred to me: maybe it would be nice if colored mana was made special. I mean, could be good if instead of gaining one colored mana every level, the walker would get a colored mana each 2 or 3 lv's, while in the meantime-levels he gets incolor mana.

I think this would make players make a better use of their mana (as they do in MTG). Also, you could make other classes that don't too much access to mana gain one colored mana each 4-5 lv's (and incolor each odd numbered lv).

Example:

Using colored mana each 2 lvs (walkers) and 4 (other classes) we could have a lv 4 Walker with 2C and 2I. Also another character (of a different class but same lv) would have 1C 2 I.

Okay, the difference wasn't huge but you got the point.

In Mtg you watch your mana carefully because:
1) You're playing a multicolored deck. The same problem arises here and you have to be careful
2) You want to maximize your mana efficiency. You have the same thing here when trying to cast more spells per turn
3) You're using lands with other powerful effects that only tap for colorless. There is no equivalent here

So basically, giving colorless mana to people doesn't increase the resemblance to MtG and makes it annoying when you only have one colored mana at level 2 and are cut off from a great deal of spells you could be casting. Most spells with a casting cost of more than one though will have more colorless than colored mana in their cost, so gameplay wise it won't make a difference. I would say just leave it as is.


Splice - As long as you have this spell memorized you gain the spell like ability to pay 1R to add 1d4 points of cold damage to any arcane spell you cast.

A spell like ability automatically takes up your standard action though. The rules as is don't allow this to be useful as far as I can tell. It would need to be supernatural or something

I noticed a possible problem... when you pick your second color, you can fit with your alignment but still pick an enemy color to your primary color. Not a huge deal (for example, if you're chaotic good you would be white and red), and there's still the benefit that white and black are opposed, as are blue and red, and I generally feel those are the main enmities between colors

Question: If you change your alignment, does

Some green spells ideas:

Giant Growth
Green
Level: Walker 1 Mana: G Casting time 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One creature Duration: 1 round Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

One willing target creature increases one (two?) size levels for one round.


Wild Growth
Green
Level: Walker 1 Mana: G Casting time 1 standard action Range: Close Effect: Ground Duration: 1 minute/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You channel the power of the wild, causing plantlife to rapidly spring up iin a ten foot radius around you. The plants do not hinder your ability to act. While the spell is in effect, you gain one additional green mana each turn. If the plants are destroyed before the spell's duration is over, the effect ends prematurely

Stream of Life
Green
Level: Walker 3 Mana: GX Casting time 1 standard action Range: Touch Effect: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You channel the power of nature to reinforce your target's life force, healing him for xd4 health

Hurricane
Green
Level: Walker 5 Mana: GX Casting time 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft + 5/2 levels) Effect: One hurricane Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Yes (See spell description) Spell Resistance: No

You summon a small hurricane above your head, disrupting all flying creatures. The bottom of the hurricane is centered at where the spell is targeted, with a radius of 1000 feet and a height of 100 feet, all creatures caught in the winds take xd6 damage per turn (reflex half). The bottom of the hurricane must be at least 10 feet off the ground.
This spell may only be cast outdoors

Notice this doesn't replicate the damaging the caster effect, but in this case I think it's worth it since there's no enemy caster to damage also.

Overrun
Green
Level: Walker 4 Mana: GGG2 Casting time 1 standard action Range: Close Effect: 1 creature/level Duration: 1 round Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

The targets of the spell are charged with the power of the wild. For one round, they get +8 strength and +8 constitution, along with a +4 bonus to any bull rush attempt

Do we want these kinds of spells to be super powerful for one turn, or less powerful for multiple turns? Given the casting system, a less powerful but longer lasting spell would give you a huge opportunity to buff up like mad before combat starts given the chance (giant growth everyone, then overrun, then maybe cast a couple white buffs too, and finally you're good to go). One round of huge effect feels more flavorful and more balanced IMO

EENick
2009-05-20, 01:24 PM
I think the system already covers the problem with basic lands fairly well and I don't see anyway to cover non-basic lands under D&D rules so I'm just going to suggest leaving it as it is. The only reason people take colorless mana lands to begin with is so they can get some other effect out of them and I'm not inclined to give Walkers anymore abilities.



A spell like ability automatically takes up your standard action though. The rules as is don't allow this to be useful as far as I can tell. It would need to be supernatural or something

Hmm you are probably right there. I was never good a templating.




I noticed a possible problem... when you pick your second color, you can fit with your alignment but still pick an enemy color to your primary color. Not a huge deal (for example, if you're chaotic good you would be white and red), and there's still the benefit that white and black are opposed, as are blue and red, and I generally feel those are the main enmities between colors

Well that was just the best way I found to translate the color wheel's alignment into D&D. I don't really see any other way to do it without making it needlessly complicated.


Question: If you change your alignment, does

That is a DM call. You I can see it going either way. If you keep your mana I'd suggest it being like when a villian reforms but still has a dark heart. They are being good and trying hard but darkness is just always going to be a part of there nature now. Likewise for a white spellcaster who falls from grace.


Do we want these kinds of spells to be super powerful for one turn, or less powerful for multiple turns? Given the casting system, a less powerful but longer lasting spell would give you a huge opportunity to buff up like mad before combat starts given the chance (giant growth everyone, then overrun, then maybe cast a couple white buffs too, and finally you're good to go). One round of huge effect feels more flavorful and more balanced IMO

I think one turn spells should be a staple of the class. Since they can cast more then one spell a turn it balances the class out. Sure they can cast lots of spells but if they want to keep the buffs up they have to keep recasting them. It fits deeply into MTG's theme of instants generally being stronger then enchantments anyway.

A 6th level wizard could toss a 4 hit dice attack spell and then giant growth the fighter for 6 turns it would be pretty broken. But tossing a 4 hit dice fire ball (small by 6th level standards) and buffing the fighter for one round isn't game breaking.

If everyone feels pretty solid on the purpose walker class I suggest we start a new thread just dedicate to spells to keep them organized.

Yes/No?

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 02:12 PM
Sounds good to me. Next on the agenda: Other classes.

A fighter/caster hybrid (similar casting powers to a paladin) with a full base attack bonus or 3/4 base attack bonus would be good to have. The shining example in my mind is that all Keldon warlords were required to be able to cast a fire spell, but I can't see any Keldon settling for d4 hit dice and half rate BAB, even for a single level. You can still use the barbarian/fighter/rogue/monk right out of the PHB and I don't think there's a problem with that. The new magic system basically consolidates all the casters into a single class, with a LOT of flexibility towards what kind of caster you are.

Do we want an artificer base class, or just a prestige class?

I can think of a lot of potential prestige classes, but I realize they could also be covered with feats. For example:

One With Nature
Requirements: At least three green mana
You can talk with trees

and

Druidic Path
Requirements: One With Nature, at least five green mana
Insert treestride effect here

and all of a sudden you're a druid, with a set of plausible abilities. This further increases the flexibility of the caster class. Although at this point I feel like there's a huge asymmetry between casters, who take a single class with loads of available feats, vs. non-casters, who now have only half the feats available to them (no mana) and are stuck in class progressions

EDIT TO ADD: Actually, it would make sense to have prestige classes that gain access to mana, but don't require casting abilities. For example, a paladin prestige class would require a BAB of 6, a good alignment, and would give you a white mana every other level. This way a fighter could pick up some spellcasting abilities. Another one could be keldon warlord. Then I don't have so much of a gripe with no caster/fighter hybrid class :smallsmile:

Murdim
2009-05-20, 02:20 PM
Regarding the color/alignmnent interaction, I still think they don't fit well together. While colors do have some "poster", obviously associated alignments, and some others who are nearly prohibited, they have NO correspondance with the alignment axes. White, in particular, isn't the equivalent of Good ; actually, it is more about Law than Goodness, so much that a Lawful Evil, pure white character is conceivable while a Chaotic Good one isn't.

Thus, if I wanted to make a color-based system for character interaction and character-based casting, i would completely throw out the alignment system, rather than trying to tinker it to match the traditional G/E - L/C axes. Of course, nothing would prevent players to give alignments to their characters as a personnal line of conduct, usually in the limits their color traditionally imposes ; but colors themselves covers way too many alignment squares at once to be used as an alignment detector.

Here are some thoughts about available alignments for each monocolor and bicolor :

White
Usual : LG
Common : NG, LN, N, LE
Atypical : CG, CN, NE, CE

Blue
Usual : LN, N
Common : NG, CN, LE, NE
Atypical : CG, LG, CE

Black
Usual : NE
Common : LN, N, CN, LE, CE
Atypical : LG, NG, CG

Red
Usual : CN
Common : NG, CG, N, NE, CE
Atypical : LG, LN, LE

Green
Usual : CG, N
Common : LG, NG, LN, CN, NE, CE
Atypical : LE

White/Blue
Usual : LN
Common : LG, NG, N, LE, NE
Atypical : CG, CN, CE

White/Black
Usual : LE
Common : LG, LN, N, NE
Atypical : NG, CG, CN, CE

White/Red
Usual : NG, CG
Common : LG, N, CN ; maybe LN to a lesser extent
Atypical : LN (but...), LE, NE, CE

White/Green
Usual : NG
Common : LG, CG, LN, N, CN, NE
Atypical : LE, CE

Blue/Black
Usual : LE, NE
Common : NG, LN, N, CN, CE (in a subtle way)
Atypical : LG, CG, traditional rampaging CE

Blue/Red
Usual : N, CN
Common : NG, CG, LN, NE
Atypical : LG, LE, CE

Blue/Green
Usual : N
Common : NG, CG, LN, CN, LE, NE
Atypical : LG, CE

Black/Red
Usual : CE to the bone
Common : N, CN, NE
Atypical : LG, NG, CG, LN, LE

Black/Green
Usual : N, NE
Common : CG, LN, CN, LE, CE
Atypical : LG, NG

Red/Green
Usual : N, CN
Common : NG, CG, CE
Atypical : LG, LN, NE, LE

Unless I made a mistake, "Usual" alignments of a given color aren't "Atypical" in any combination of this color and another, i.e a character imagined as CN (LG, NE) can safely be of any partially red (white, black) color.

EENick
2009-05-20, 02:28 PM
Personally I suggest we run it like this.

Anything other then walker is a prestige class, but like with Psi we let peopel buy into mana based on feats.

Something like

Feat:

Mana Touched
Description: You are deeply in tune with flow of the universe. You may take a half action to tap into this vast power. If you do you gain one colorless mana at the start of next turn.

Which could work with

Mana Burn
Description: You can channel mana into desctructive energy similar to evil clerics. You may spend 1 point of mana per turn to add 2d4 points of fire damage to your melee attacks. You may not spend more then one point of mana this way each turn.

(which is a little over powered but you get the point.)

But since mana is so plentiful we have to be careful. With Psi-feats players loose focus and have to spend psi-sonic focus which is seperate from Psi-points. We might do well to come up with a similar concept from MTG so as to allow walker feats to not become over powered.

----------

Edit: Murdim there have been chaotic white cards before and chaotic white characters. Just look at Preacher.

You can have good characters doing pretty evil things ala paladines killing goblin children. The difference between white and black is white thinks it is okay, where as black just doesn't care if it is okay or not.

You are right it isn't a perfect match but is a fairly easy to use one rather then one that is overly complicated but more strictly accurate.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 02:39 PM
I would say the alignment system set up is

1) Good to use for now
2) Could be better

And that there could be a footnote saying these are just guidelines, and if players have a plausible alternative description for why they should have access to a different color, to allow it.



Anything other then walker is a prestige class, but like with Psi we let peopel buy into mana based on feats.


So like, no fighter class even? I'm not sure what you mean here

EENick
2009-05-20, 02:44 PM
I would say the alignment system set up is

1) Good to use for now
2) Could be better

And that there could be a footnote saying these are just guidelines, and if players have a plausible alternative description for why they should have access to a different color, to allow it.



So like, no fighter class even? I'm not sure what you mean here

I'm just saying as I see it other classes in MTG generally seem more like existing D&D classes with some mana powered feats then entirely seperate classes and if it is up to me that is the direction I would go.

If you have an idea for a fighter MTG class by all means share it, maybe you see something I don't.

Also good point on the alignment system.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 02:49 PM
I'm just saying as I see it other classes in MTG generally seem more like existing D&D classes with some mana powered feats then entirely seperate classes and if it is up to me that is the direction I would go.

If you have an idea for a fighter MTG class by all means share it, maybe you see something I don't.

I thought it could look similar to this:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/fighter.html

You shouldn't need mana to be able to swing a sword

Murdim
2009-05-20, 03:00 PM
You are right it isn't a perfect match but is a fairly easy to use one rather then one that is overly complicated but more strictly accurate.Well, what I primarily suggest is no color/alignment match at all :smallbiggrin: The thing in spoilers would be here just not to have pure W characters imagined and conceived as CE, B as NG, R/G as LE, or whatever... unless the player really wants to play a, well, really "atypical" individual. And certainly not to forbid anything :smalltongue:

EENick
2009-05-20, 03:01 PM
Ah well then I agree. I'm just trying to work out how mana using characters/classes will work. Pretty much all other classes can stay exactly the same.

Edit:


Well, what I primarily suggest is no color/alignment match at all :smallbiggrin: The thing in spoilers would be here just not to have pure W characters imagined and conceived as CE, B as NG, R/G as LE, or whatever... unless the player really wants to play a, well, "atypical" individual.

I see your point but in the D&D universe just certain things match up with alignment like Paladines or Monks or Protection from Good. Naturally these rules are optional but IMO to keep it in with both MTG & D&D as much as possible alignment restrictions are probably the way to go. After all D&D has atypical alignment characters all the time. CG dark elves anyone?

IMO a LG Walker should have trouble using Red & black mana thematically, 90% of the time and as a DM I know I'd have touble with most Good aligned characters tossing around black spells without a strong narrative reason.

For example typically White/Black is pretty xenophobic. "We protect our own but no one else." Kind of hard to work into most adventure groups.

Anyway that is just my POV. How about we just make it an optional rule?

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 03:07 PM
Ok, so we are on the same page. I was referring to prestige classes not for the casters, but for the melee characters. You can't get the blackguard class anymore. Heck, you can't even be a paladin except for multiclassing.

You could give mana powered feats for those, but a fighter has no mana, and it would suck to be a paladin with your first five levels at d4 hit dice

EENick
2009-05-20, 03:11 PM
Ok, so we are on the same page. I was referring to prestige classes not for the casters, but for the melee characters. You can't get the blackguard class anymore. Heck, you can't even be a paladin except for multiclassing.

You could give mana powered feats for those, but a fighter has no mana, and it would suck to be a paladin with your first five levels at d4 hit dice

Well what I'm saying is instead of mana what if we used the tap system for walker feats.

Like say:

Mana touched.
Benefit: Gain one colorless mana at the start of each turn.

Mana Blade
Prerequisite: At least 1 point of mana.
Spend 1 point of mana: Add 2d4 damage to your next attack. This ability tapes for 1d6 rounds and cannot be used till it untaps. This feat can be taken multiple times, each instance taps seperately.

Then a normally old warrior could take it if he didn't mind giving up some feats similar to the way a warrior could take a wild tallent and pick up Psi-feats.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 03:17 PM
I still think they would need access to colored mana to make it all work flavorfully. I'm going to stick with the paladin example; it should be possible to recreate a paladin in the MtG version. Something like a healing spell, some sort of evil smiting, probably a bunch of anti red and black stuff. The only option at the moment is to spend three or four levels in walker, which kicks your ability to fight with a sword in the balls

EENick
2009-05-20, 03:47 PM
I still think they would need access to colored mana to make it all work flavorfully. I'm going to stick with the paladin example; it should be possible to recreate a paladin in the MtG version. Something like a healing spell, some sort of evil smiting, probably a bunch of anti red and black stuff. The only option at the moment is to spend three or four levels in walker, which kicks your ability to fight with a sword in the balls

Well MTG is a much more magic heavy universe then D&D. Assuming 1/1 equals about one fighter level that means most fighters in MTG universe are fairly weak.

Let me just translate my POV here.

Benalish Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136279)

1st level walker, 2nd level fighter

Crusading Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22963)
2nd level walker, 2nd level fighter

Kinght of the Reliquary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189145)

2nd level fighter, 1st level walker

Knight of the Skyward Eye (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175047)

2nd level fighter with some sort of feat

Paladine En-Vec (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129668)
2nd level fighter, 1st level walker

So I see that as kind of in keeping with how MTG keeps things. Your fighting skills generally do go to crap when you have special powers.

Look at Rasia (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89061) for example. She cost 8 and that is color heavy. That makes her in D&D terms like what? 9th or 10th level and a legend to boot. Yet her physical stats are shockingly low.

Considering most MTG Paladins are I just see the D&D equivalent being something like 3 levels in Fighter/3 in walker and then picking up a white centered version of an Eldritch Knight. That is the angle I'm been approaching things from so far.

Now that said if you want to move away from that, I'm game. It is more important things like this be fun then anything else. What do you have in mind?

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 04:07 PM
Ok, I guess I can see it, but... if (nearly) everybody's picking up walker levels, then the average hp and base attack of the party is going to be lower than normal. This would need to be taken into account.

Also, something unrelated that occurred to me... what are charisma and wisdom used for in the game? A couple of skill checks and a saving throw is about it. Intelligence gets a huge boost by being the single magic affecting stat.

EENick
2009-05-20, 04:23 PM
Hmmm I guess I just didn't worry about it to much. I used to play in the Mystara setting where Wizards were supposed to be something like over 50% of the population.

I guess a lot would depend on what plane the PCs are in at the moment. Like if it was Ravnica probably most PCs would pick up a guild based class after 3rd level or so. I imagine the Gruu would pretty physical and beef up hit points and fighting stats pretty quickly while limiting your spells from then on pretty severly and using mana for other things.

For example a Gruu ability might be that they could spend R or G mana to bring up a die roll by 1 and they would increase the number of times they can do this on a roll as they leveled up. IE: A 2nd level Gruu could spend 1 mana per roll but a 8th level gruu could fudge their attack and damage rolls by 4 each (so long as they had the mana for each one). And then just support themselves with Green spells for extra toughness.

I can see a Gruu as a 1-2nd level barbarian and a 2-3 level walker.

If you seriously think we need to make MTG alternate classes though like Monte Cook did I'm game for it.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 06:31 PM
Something as simple as this might work

Prestige class: Fighter/caster hybrid
Requirement: Mana Touched, BAB +5
BAB: Full
HD: D10
Saves: Fort good
Skills: 2+int
1st level - Pick a color (same alignment deal)
1 Colored Mana
2nd level - Nothing
3rd level - 1 colored mana
4th level - 1 free mana feat
5th level - 1 colored mana

etc.

A skills/caster hybrid could be similar,
Requirement: Mana Touched, 60 skill points
HD: D6
Saves: Ref good
Skills: 6 + int
1st level - pick a color
1 colored mana
2nd level - nothing
3rd level - 1 colored mana
4th level - 1 free mana feat
etc.

Alternatively, they could be a bit less bland of course

Lady Tialait
2009-05-20, 10:23 PM
Ofcourse we are talking planeswalker likes Jace or Chandra (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature2/1705) not Planeswalker like Urza (http://www.phyrexia.com/continuity/Urza.shtml)or Nicol Bolas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Magic:_The_Gathering:_N#Nico l_Bolas) right?

There is a totally HUGE power difference.

Kornaki
2009-05-20, 11:20 PM
I still interpret the class to be a common place wizard, but that's for the individual to decide. Obviously it's not an urza style planeswalker, as it's missing vital elements including immortality and the unlimited power of the universe at its fingertips

EENick
2009-05-21, 12:12 AM
Tialait well I'm more of the opinion we should be making these more specific like for members of the cabal or the clans of Ravnica. Expanding on my previous example:

Prestige class: Gruu Clansman
Requirement: Access to Red and Green Mana, BAB +5
BAB: Full
HD: D12
Saves: Fort good
Skills: 2+int
1st level - Primal mana, Hybrid Mana
2nd level - Plus one mana
3rd level - Plus one mana
4th level - Plus one mana
5th level - Blood Thirst, Plus one mana

Spells Per day

1st - 2/0/0
2nd - 3/1/0
3rd - 4/2/0
4th - 5/3/1
5th - 5/4/2

Primal Mana
As a free action each turn Gruu may cast one red or green single mana spell with a personal range and a 1 round durration before making a full attack. IE: Gaint Growth

hybrid Mana
Gruu may choose to make their mana any combination of Red or Green mana if they choose instead of what they normally would get.

Blood Thirst
Once a Gruu has drawn blood they gain +1 to all additional damage rolls until the end of turn.

Yes/No?


Ofcourse we are talking planeswalker likes Jace or Chandra (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature2/1705) not Planeswalker like Urza (http://www.phyrexia.com/continuity/Urza.shtml)or Nicol Bolas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Magic:_The_Gathering:_N#Nico l_Bolas) right?

There is a totally HUGE power difference.

These are definitely post Time Spiral walkers. Nicol Bolas is just a epic level walker with a heck of a racial bonus.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 12:51 AM
Hmmm... Ok, but you could make a thousand different prestige classes depending on setting/color combination. How much time do you want to spend working on them?

EENick
2009-05-21, 01:10 AM
Hmmm... Ok, but you could make a thousand different prestige classes depending on setting/color combination. How much time do you want to spend working on them?

Well I figure we're sort of winding down phase 1. In the sense that we have a spell system now, it needs testing but at least we have the idea down and along with that we have a base class.

Phase 2 is we start making a small spell book of spells and once that is done maybe mod the base class.

Phase 3 when we sort of have an idea that this whole mana system works we pick a setting and start expanding content. Prestige classes, monsters, a little light setting info etc. etc.

I'm having fun with this so I'm willing to spend a fair bit of time on this until it starts becoming not fun. Besides I'd really like to get this far enough along so I can play test it.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 01:34 AM
Spellbook work sounds pretty good for now... and while we're on the topic, let's talk about

Mechanics

I noticed firebolt's flashback might as well just be a kicker cost. We don't want to clutter spells with different named mechanics that have equivalent effects in-game, so we should get that worked out now in order to make things easier.

I'm in favor of flashback being something where you can literally cast the spell twice, something like

Flashback: After casting this spell, a copy of the spell is added to your memorized spells. The new copy costs 4R instead of R, and does not have flashback

Here's a list of every Mtg keyword (note we don't need to work out a lot of them like threshold, at least for now. Maybe later if we want to do creatures in detail; I don't really see summoning being as important as in the card game though)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Magic:_The_Gathering_keywords
Other mechanics:

Kicker cost: Pretty easy; when you cast the spell you can pay additional mana for additional effect

Cycling: Pay mana cost to forget spell and memorize a different spell instead. Too powerful? I kind of imagine we could have tutor effects doing this to be honest, which means cycling would need to be toned down/changed.

Buyback: Pay mana to not forget spell. Simply ensure that the spells with buyback aren't too powerful (no healing for starters)

Convoke: If you have any summoned creatures, they can skip their next turn to each reduce the mana cost of this spell by 1

Upkeep/Cumulative upkeep: Exactly as the description in Mtg. Pay mana at the beginning of your turn or it dies

Echo: Same deal. Pay the mana cost again or the card dies

Entwine: Again easy. You choose which of the two modal options when casting, or can choose both if you pay the entwine cost

Madness: If an effect causes you to unremember spells (casting a spell does not qualify) you may cast this spell as an immediate action for its madness cost after unremembering the spells

We already have rules in place for losing spells due to level loss in classic 3.5, so that could be ported over to describe discard effects.

Replicate: As you cast the spell, you may pay the replicate cost any number of times. For each time you pay the replicate cost, you may freely cast the spell again as if it was an instant, ignoring spell level requirements to do so. These do not count against your instants per turn count.

Split Second: This spell may be used as an immediate action? Actually, we want e.g. counterspell to be able to be cast during opponent's turns, so the split second mechanic loses a lot of its uniqueness. Needs another feature, or just ignore it

Storm: For each spell that has been cast during your turn already, you may cast this spell again as an instant ignoring all mana costs and instant casting limits

Suspend: Basically, should act as a delayed blast fireball. Not sure what the exact wording would be though as not all the spells should be represented as a bead I think.

Transmute: As long as this spell is memorized, as a supernatural ability you may, as a swift action, pay the transmute cost of this spell and unmemorize it. Then choose any spell in your spellbook with the same converted mana cost and memorize that

Typecycling: Pay cycle cost, unmemorize, choose any spell in spellbook with same type and memorize that. Problems involving rules for 'types', mostly between instants and sorceries



Of course, one way to avoid tricky keywords is to not use spells that use them. Affinity would be a tough one to do well I think.

Do we want to/how will we distinguish between instants and sorceries? Some stuff like counterspell needs to exist and be castable during opponent's turn.... (swift or immediate action? I always get them confused)

Also, right off the bat I feel like only four or five mechanics are truly suitable... stuff like transmute and typecycling and cycling don't work well in the system we have

EENick
2009-05-21, 02:03 AM
Spellbook work sounds pretty good for now... and while we're on the topic, let's talk about

Mechanics

I noticed firebolt's flashback might as well just be a kicker cost. We don't want to clutter spells with different named mechanics that have equivalent effects in-game, so we should get that worked out now in order to make things easier.

I'm in favor of flashback being something where you can literally cast the spell twice, something like

Flashback: After casting this spell, a copy of the spell is added to your memorized spells. The new copy costs 4R instead of R, and does not have flashback

I agree that is more in keeping with flashback per MTG but it is to much book keeping. I know I for one don't wan to wory about how many spells I've got on stand by to use flashback. And how long does flashback last? Till end of combat?

I templated it the way I did to try and cut down on paperwork and still capture the feel of flashback. I'm reluctant to leave flashback so open ended.

I admite my idea is not a very elegant way to solve some of these problems, but I feel a more strait forward flashback in this case would end up being something of a large headache for little gain on most spells. A lot of flashback MTG advantage is that it is a spell you can play out of hand, rather then just a spell you can play twice. When you've got 30 or 40 spells memorized who really wants to over pay just to get another shot at a first level spell? 90% of the time probably no one. And decent spells flashback costs could well end up being epic given how expensive flashback is vs base costs. By adding quicken to flashback spells I hoped to make them actually worth there rather high costs. In this instance I really feel we must adapt flashback for D&D rather then just translate it into D&D.

What if it allows you to cast the spell until the end of your next turn or something like that? That would open the window of opportunity more without creating bookwork issues.

Something like:

Flashback: Until then end of your next turn you may cast a quicked copy of this spell. The new copy costs 4R instead of R, and does not have flashback.

Does that seem better or still way off the mark?

________________

Edit

I made a list ealier of mechanics I think are easily reworkable along with my thoughts on them as well as ones I thought were either to much work or flately unworkable. Of course just because some of these could be adaptable doesn't mean we should. Some of them while workable after fasion are not so good and also a lot of them like flashback need work but hopefully it will give us a starting point. I'll repost it:



Under this system I could see the following mechanics working to various levels of success.

Cycling - The Wizard looses his spell for something akin to a wild surge.

Entwine - Pretty much stay the same. Comes and spells with two effects and lets you get both.

Kicker - Mostly the same, just lets you spend extra mana on spells each turn.

Madness - Lets you cast the spell in place of a spell that fizzled.

Buyback - Same as before lets you keep a spell after casting it rather then loosing memorization, though I would suggest we not use this one if they get mana per turn instead of a mana base.

Flashback - Lets them use a quickened version of the a spell they just cast this round.

Storm - I suggest in storms case we scale it down to add one to your caster level for each other spell level cast this turn. IE a someone casts fire ball at Billy Redmage. Billy lives and fires back magic missle storm. Billy casts that spell at +3 levels so as it her were a 16th level caster instead of a 13rd level one.

Fading - Basically all summoned creatures in D&D already have this ability. We just lets our mages manipulate the turns the creature can stay to activate special powers. IE: Billy Redmage summons a goblin that will last for 10 round. Billy can force the Goblin to spit fire in exchange for shortening the durration by 1 round.

Cascade - Allows you to cast a second spell from a lower level at random.

Convoke - Allows allies to give up there turn in order to add a meta-magic feat to your spell.

Conspire - Allows allies to give up there turn in order to copy the spell.

Dredge X - Allows you to call a forgotten spell in exchange for X spell levels. IE: Billy wants to remember a spell with dredge 5 so he forgets a 3rd and 2nd level spell.

Prowl - If the wizard did melee damage to a foe then they can cast this spell quickened for its prowl cost.

Replicate - Basically same as the original ability allowing you to copy the spell so long as you have mana to pay for the copies.

Retrace - Same as flashback but doesn't need to be played on the same turn as the spell was cast.

Ripple - 7% chance of the spell copying itself.

Splice - Possible to add this spells effect when casting a second spell. Possibly a meta magic feat.

Suspend - Basically it already exists in magic as Delayed Blast Fireball.

Transmute - Allows you to swap the spell for a spell of the same level.

Grandeur - Burn multiple memorizations for a larger effect.

Unadaptable
Most Creature only abilities
Scry X
Threshold - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Echo - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Imprint
Affinity
Indestructible
Phasing - Adaptable but lame
Amplify
Aura Swap
Delve
Epic - Adaptable but lame
Forecast - Adaptable but lame in D&D
Gravestorm
Haunt
Hideaway
Imprint
Recover - redundant with buyback
Split Second
Hellbent

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 02:25 AM
Why the concern over flashback if you're going to give Retrace the same ability anyway?

Also, if we're worried about a time when you have 30 or 40 spells memorized stuff like dredge becomes too powerful. A level 3 spell generally sucks when you're character level 20, so I don't think people would mind giving them up en masse for a couple higher level spells in a tough fight. This might be mitigated by the instant effect (so you're not wasting time casting that level 3 spell) but it just as easily could destroy the mechanic if it's more powerful to just dredge up higher level spells for longevity. It's worth exploring I suppose

I feel like overall there are just too many keywords and they need to be pared down.

Kicker, buyback, entwine, split cards(not mentioned yet but should be included I think) are easy to implement. After that it starts getting trickier.

EENick
2009-05-21, 02:40 AM
Why the concern over flashback if you're going to give Retrace the same ability anyway?

Well we might not use Retrace. Remember that is a list of how ideas could be done, not a mandate that they all must be used. But if we came up with two good ideas for flashback I figured we could always turn the extra one into Retrace so I left it on the list.


Also, if we're worried about a time when you have 30 or 40 spells memorized stuff like dredge becomes too powerful. A level 3 spell generally sucks when you're character level 20, so I don't think people would mind giving them up en masse for a couple higher level spells in a tough fight. This might be mitigated by the instant effect (so you're not wasting time casting that level 3 spell) but it just as easily could destroy the mechanic if it's more powerful to just dredge up higher level spells for longevity. It's worth exploring I suppose

I feel like overall there are just too many keywords and they need to be pared down.

I wouldn't say there is to many persay but yes the list needs to be trimmed, abilities defined and balanced, and wording refined. These are just supposed to be a starting point.


Kicker, buyback, entwine, split cards(not mentioned yet but should be included I think) are easy to implement. After that it starts getting trickier.

Well split cards are not a keyword. There are many non-keyword mechanics we could include easily, but I figured lets start with the keywords because keywords will make creating walker magic items much easier. For example a Ring of Flashback then just gives one of your spells flashback and can be used once a day etc. etc.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 02:46 AM
True that keywords give easier magic item creation. But considering nearly every mechanic is a keyword (what are some other non-keyword mechanics that would fit in?) it's not a bad idea to consider them now. Hell, I can think up a split card magic item anyway:

Ring of Duality
Ring of Duality can have up to two spells cast into it (similar to a ring of counterspelling). As long as two spells are cast into it, whenever you have one of them memorized, it automatically qualifies as a split spell with the other spell cast into the Ring of Duality

EENick
2009-05-21, 03:13 AM
True that keywords give easier magic item creation. But considering nearly every mechanic is a keyword (what are some other non-keyword mechanics that would fit in?) it's not a bad idea to consider them now. Hell, I can think up a split card magic item anyway:

Ring of Duality
Ring of Duality can have up to two spells cast into it (similar to a ring of counterspelling). As long as two spells are cast into it, whenever you have one of them memorized, it automatically qualifies as a split spell with the other spell cast into the Ring of Duality

That sound much more like Spellweaver helix & imprint the split cards actually.

Non-keyword mechanics? Well I'm not going to list all of them right now but here are a few before I drop off to sleep for the night.

Burst effects
Spirit Craft
Spellshaping - this is basically like clercial domain spells IMO.
Snow
Flip Effects
Lighting creature's till end of turn spell/creature thing
Blue uptap effects

Again we probably won't use all of them, but we should consider them after the keywords.

dentrag2
2009-05-21, 11:04 AM
Great fan of magic. I'm going to test the magic system with one of my friends soon (He's gonna play a red planeswalker)

But i noticed some of your abilities got left out.

Split second cannot be interrupted or counterspelled, which would be pretty useful against a blue wizard.

What about Protection from X? Damage Reduction?

And then of course, affinity.

(I still love the Mirrodin set, so don't mind me.)

Affinity: Feat that possibly makes things cheaper (By one for each cast) as long as you keep casting in a row, to a maximum of -5 mana.

Probably a bit broken, so we could throw some requirements on it.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 11:17 AM
Whoops. EENick, by mechanic I meant something that's not covered in the basic rules of Mtg. So an untap effect, while maybe considered a mechanic, is no different than e.g. wild growth. You just need to figure out how to make the spell description fit the game. On the other hand for a split card there's an actual change in the basic rules to accomodate the mechanic

dentrag, except for split second those abilities are on permanents, which we haven't really started considering yet (DnD is mostly an instant/sorcery game, so it's natural to start there). And we haven't hashed out counterspell yet, so split second will have to wait

EENick
2009-05-21, 11:47 AM
FYI I updated the spells thread


Great fan of magic. I'm going to test the magic system with one of my friends soon (He's gonna play a red planeswalker)

But i noticed some of your abilities got left out.

Split second cannot be interrupted or counterspelled, which would be pretty useful against a blue wizard.

What about Protection from X? Damage Reduction?

And then of course, affinity.

(I still love the Mirrodin set, so don't mind me.)

Affinity: Feat that possibly makes things cheaper (By one for each cast) as long as you keep casting in a row, to a maximum of -5 mana.

Probably a bit broken, so we could throw some requirements on it.

Great! Let me know how it works out!

As for Protection & Absorb those are pretty much already in D&D in the form of damage reduction. A Walker spell would pretty much just grant that ability to the PC so I didn't feel the need to keep them in.

I guess split second could be good but but it is REALLY powerful which is why in TS most of the split second cards never made it to print. For similar reasons I left it out here. Uncounterable/spells which cannot fizzle are REALLY powerful IMO and could unbalance the class. Plus isn't Time Stop like split second for pros already? I don't know, what does everyone else thinK?

Likewise affinity just seems to strong and kind of awkward to adapt. The only balanced idea that comes to mind is to actually invert the mechanic and make it sort of anti-affinity. Like the spells cost less when you are facing [Creature] but that isn't really in sync with the spirit of affinity.


Whoops. EENick, by mechanic I meant something that's not covered in the basic rules of Mtg. So an untap effect, while maybe considered a mechanic, is no different than e.g. wild growth. You just need to figure out how to make the spell description fit the game. On the other hand for a split card there's an actual change in the basic rules to accomodate the mechanic.

I see, I see.

I suggest we start going through the mechanics one by one.

I think we can all agree Kicker needs no discussion so lets start with Cycling.


Cycling: Pay mana cost to forget spell and memorize a different spell instead. Too powerful? I kind of imagine we could have tutor effects doing this to be honest, which means cycling would need to be toned down/changed.


Cycling - The Wizard looses his spell for something akin to a wild surge.

This one seems right on the edge to me. In D&D it doesn't have a direct logical adaption nor an obvious spiritual one that is very useful. The random factor here is a real sinker.

One possibility though is play up the cycling effects and just ignore the new card aspect. We only include spells with cycling effects and make cycling effects count as 0 level spells. Thusly once Walkers get multi-casting they could cast a high level spell and cycle off another instead of casting a lower level spell.

Another is make cycling a form a meta magic. Allow players to cycle spells in order to activate meta magic. IE: Cycle off Akroma's Vengence to maximize fireball.

In both cases though this pretty much makes cycling only useful/balanced as a high level mechanic.

Feedback/Better ideas?

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 02:05 PM
I like it... I hadn't really considered trying to mix in multi colored spells, but obviously that should be a goal.

It is.


I strongly disagree with the characterization of black as chaotic (see: Phyrexia, the Cabal). More often than not, black ends up being the big bad organization, which is LE. And blue definitely isn't evil. The more I think about it the warier I am of assigning alignments to green blue and red, since they're kind of supposed to be the more wishy washy colors alignment-wise. OTOH white is pretty much (emphasis on pretty much, there are exceptions) supposed to be good, and black is pretty much supposed to be evil, so something there could be done.

I think that I will implement both the Alignment and the colors. As in stead of Gods I will use color.


Xvos, I don't think the advancement system is really that great here because it gets hung up on MtG's unique spellcasting system (how do you advance to a druid? By casting green spells? Which you already were doing as a mystic... the line is not so clear cut as it is in many other settings)

I approve of advanced classes and basics classes, however, many of the advanced would be basic, and the advanced classes would be considered a prestige-analogue. As such to advance to druid you would have to aligned with Green, be able to cast spells, and then take training as a Druid.

Also, seeing as I am only just back, thanks guys for all the work. I've been away at my lake house and me and my friends brain-stormed about this and came up with some good ideas. I'm also graduating tonight, so I'll finally be able to put alot of work into this, I didn't really expect this much of a response. Once again, thanks, and by this weekend expect a much larger handbook to be out.

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 03:09 PM
As I am reading, I have found many objections to all classes using mana. Don't worry. Not all classes have mana. Like in DnD, Soldiers will pick up feats to increase their fighting prowess. Only the spell casting classes will have mana.

Onto the first page of the book however!

CASTING, EFFECTS, SUMMONING, AND MANA
BASICS
Classes within this game are aligned with up to a certain number of mana. Three examples are the Knight who can be aligned with up to two colors, the Shaman with up to two, or a wizard, who can be aligned with all the colors if they so choose.
However the solution to the discrepancy between the ability to align is that Wizards, Shamans, and Knights have different spell selection lists, different mana, and a different amount of known and new spells per level. For instance, the Knight, taking a page from Elspeth, would be a Paladin analogue, and so most of their spells would be centered on healing and buffing, depending on the color choices. And since they are less focused on spell-casting than Wizards, they have both a lower mana, and less spell choices. A Shaman, being focused on spell-casting, would have just as much mana as a Wizard, if just different spells. A Wizard would be more open ended, while a Shaman is more focused down its two or one colors, if only because they cannot select many more colors.
There are also 3 types of spells. Enchantments, Sorceries, and Instants. The first two must be prepared at the beginning of the day, while Instants do not have to be, they just use mana.
Spell levels that are castable are decided upon each class. For example, both Wizard and Shaman gain a spell level every other level, so at 1 a Wizard can cast 1st level spells, so 0 (just little things, such as light, where you can cast 1\2 your caster level rounded up + 2 per day of spells) and 1 mana cost spells. At 3rd caster level, a wizard can cast 2nd or up to 2 mana cost spells.

MANA
Mana would work like spells per day, or a similar system. Taking Billy, our resident Red-aligned Wizard, who is level 13, he has had 13 times to select mana, at every level up. Seeing as Billy is a Wizard, every 3rd level he gains 3 mana, and at every other level, he gains 2, so as such he has (excepting first, where-at he gains 3) 3+2+3+2+2+3+2+2+3+2+2+3+2=31 mana. At every level he decides to put his 3 mana points into a certain pool of colors, however since he is a Wizard he is not bound by his color choices at the beginning of the game. So he at first level he choose 2 Blue, and a White. And he did this for every level until 7, when he decided that Red was the color for him, however, at transition, he picks Red until now as he cannot pick more mana than his level, leaving him with 11 Blue, 7 White, and 13 Red. And at every level he picks a number of spells equal to his gains in mana, up to his spell level. So at 13th level, Billy will have 31 known spells.
To show in a more practical feel, lets go through one of Billy’s days. He wakes up, and allocates as much of his mana as he wants into Enchantments and Sorceries. He selects 5 Volcanic Hammers, costing him 3 Whites and 7 Reds, and completes his Sorceries and Enchantment preparation. He also allocates mana for 4 Cancels, costing him 2 Whites, 2 Reds, and 8 Blues (Cancel is a color-less and 2 Blues), Leaving him with 2 Blues, 2 Whites, and 5 Red mana for other Instants that day.
As Billy goes on through-out his day, he uses other spells which cost 2 Whites, 1 Blue, and 2 Reds. He also uses all of his Cancels and Hammers. And Billy ends the day with 1 extra Blue mana, and 1 extra Red mana. No mana burn ensues in this situation as he has no temporary mana not used.

MAGICAL EFFECTS
Magical effects such as Trample, Cycle, Cascade, and many others can create lasting or large effects on the world and upon yourself. For example, Cascade is a feat that is put upon one spell, this increases the spell’s level by 2 and increases its mana cost by 2 color-less. However, this spell now will randomly generate a second spell of a lower mana cost. For example, Billy the Red Wizard casts a Cascaded Shock, which costs 3 mana, 2 color-less and a Red, dealing 1d4 damage to a creature. This also starts the cascade. Since Billy cast a 3 mana cost spell (inter-changeable terms now) he rolls a d3, as he has 3 lower cost spell list, a 0-cost list, a 1-cost list, and a 2-cost list. Since Billy rolled 2, he is on the 1st level spell list, where he knows 5 spells. So he rolls a d10 and gets a 3. A 1 or 2 would have meant the first item, 3 or 4 the second, and so on, and since it was a 3, the spell Cascades into his second spell down on his first level spell list.
All effects that have an X in them refer to the fact that the effect would be called Trample +3 or Wither +2 or whatnot.

Cascade – Meta-magic feat that randomly generates a spell of a cost lower than the cast spell. Decided by rolling a dX to decide the spell level, and a dX to decide what the spell on the list is. Increases the spell’s cost by 2 color-less.

Trample – Trample allows you to place an opponent on the ground and deal damage to them. To initiate make a movement action in a straight line to the target, then make a strength check against the target. If it succeeds you knock the target down, dealing them X damage, and you continue in a straight line until you come to the first empty square or a wall. If before you come to an empty square or a wall, you encounter another enemy, repeat the check. Continue this until you reach an empty square or wall. If you fail any check you are knocked down.

First Strike – Increases your initiative by 5. First Strike is an enchantment placed on an item on your person.

Double Strike – Allows for an extra attack per turn. Double Strike is an enchantment placed on an item on your person.

Exalted – Increases your hit roll by the +X amount, and increases your damage roll by the +X amount. Exalted is a sigil that must be plainly visible. Is an area of effect of 5 feet/player level.

Wither – Deals X damage to an item on the damaged creature or thing. Wither is an enchantment placed on a weapon.

This list will be constantly edited with approved effects. Please tell me any effects I missed and if possible give details as to their effects.

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 03:17 PM
In Mtg you watch your mana carefully because:
Wild Growth
Green
Level: Walker 1 Mana: G Casting time 1 standard action Range: Close Effect: Ground Duration: 1 minute/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You channel the power of the wild, causing plantlife to rapidly spring up iin a ten foot radius around you. The plants do not hinder your ability to act. While the spell is in effect, you gain one additional green mana each turn. If the plants are destroyed before the spell's duration is over, the effect ends prematurely.

I like that spell, but with my revised mana system, it would read,

Wild Growth
Green
Level: 1 Mana: G Casting time: 1 standard action Range: Close Effect: Ground Duration: 1 minute/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You channel the power of the wild, causing plantlife to rapidly spring up iin a ten foot radius around you. The plants do not hinder your or anything in the affected area's ability to act. While the spell is in effect, you gain one additional green mana per minute. If the plants are destroyed before the spell's duration is over, the effect ends prematurely, however, all current temporary mana is added to your mana pool.

I really like what you are doing Kornaki, and you too EENick, even if I'm not using all of your ideas.

EENick
2009-05-21, 03:55 PM
Hmm interesting idea on how to handle mana. Sort of a combination of Wizards and Sorcerer in an odd way. Easy to understand, each to keep track of, easy to add into a game. Really quite good all the way around.

The magical effects though I think a problematic.

This is just my opinion but a lot of them look like they'll end up making players lives more miserable instead of more fun.

Cascade – The randomness will make this unfun. Almost no one likes wild mages.

Trample – I just don't see anyway to rollplay this. What does it look like? How come all sort of a big dumb monsters have what seems to a very sophisticated power.

First Strike – This pretty much is already in D&D. So my remane it?

Double Strike – Same.

Exalted – Same. All kinds of items give you plus to hit. This seems more like a class feature where a paladine could lend his strength to a friend rather then fight himself. At least that is the way I see it.

Wither – Annoying as heck! Totally valid but a pretty miserable thing for players as they watch all their favorite stuff go up in smoke.

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 04:00 PM
I really hate Meta-magic feats, and as such I think it fits cascade.

I really don't know how else to institute trample in the game other than that. I suppose it could work as a AoE effect added onto the attack.

Exalted is really just a renaming of a DnD effect, and I forgot to mention it is a buff AoE.

And as for wither, yes and no, much like the rust monster, wither will not be a horridly common thing.

EENick
2009-05-21, 04:06 PM
But if it isn't fun why do it?

What I mean to say is many monsters in D&D already have trample, Elephants for example and it operates as you might expect. The animal runs over you knocking down doing a tone of damage that is hard to defend against.

That said why reinvent the wheel?

Why not just make trample a sort of improved bullrush that lets a warrior knock someone down and run over them as sort of an attack of opportunity while charging?

Right now I just see Cloud Strife stabbing someone in the chest and his sword shooting out a "trample ray" at the guy behind him. WHich makes sense for Final Fantasy but doesn't seem to really be the right fit for D&D.



...solider...


CLASSES
Soldier
Abilities
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are the soldier most prized abilities.
Alignment
Any
Color
None

HD: d8
Soldier
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat.

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat.

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Bonus Feat.

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat.

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat.

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Bonus Feat.

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|


12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4| Bonus Feat.

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4| Bonus Feat.

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5| Bonus Feat.

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6| Bonus Feat.

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Bonus Feat. [/table]


Class Skills: A Soldier’s class skills are: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifer) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Profiency: Soldiers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armor, and all shields.



Um looks sort of figher....ish. So why don't we just call them fighters? Am I missing something? :smallconfused:

Do they have access to some special solider only feats that sets them appart from fighters or something?

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 04:20 PM
Soldiers are just fighters renamed to fit the story and the theme.

EENick
2009-05-21, 04:48 PM
Soldiers are just fighters renamed to fit the story and the theme.

Could me make solider specific feats for them to make them different from Fighters?

EX:

Feat

First Strike
Prerequisite: Soilder, Based attack +4
Benefit: Attacking you in melee combat with anything less then a full attack provokes an attack of opportunity.

Double Strike
Prerequisite: Soldier, First Strike
Benefit: Whenever you attack someone as a standard action you first get an attack of opportunity

Frenzy
Prerequisite: Soldier
Benefit: Whenever you are attacking a target that is defenseless (held, asleep etc.) you get a +1 to all your attack and damage rolls. You may take this feat multiple times to increase your bonus.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 08:34 PM
You could just as easily introduce those feats as fighter only feats and leave it as a fighter. But it's just a name and there's no real point in arguing over it; everyone can just call it what they want

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 11:06 PM
The soldier now gains an exalt every 5th level. I also added the Knight class.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 11:33 PM
The knight is really really broken. It gains mana faster than the walker, and has better stats in everything, along with oodles of special abilities.

I'm going to backtrack on what I've said before and throw my hat into the ring with the three basic classes idea: walker, fighter, and some sort of rogue-ish type. Good small arms (daggers, hand to hand) combat and skills. You could mix and match and multi class. Only problem is that I can't see what the thief-styled class would be except for a bunch of bonus feats that would allow the same flexibility. Thoughts? Maybe something like.. how do you guys make the tables? You don't BB code those by hand I assume?

Anyway; good reflex (symmetry with fighter having good fortitude and walker having good will) d6 hit dice, loads of skill points, and every couple of levels a 'Bonus ability'. What's a bonus ability? Just like the rogue has now, except a much larger list. It would be similar to the fighter's bonus feat concept, except that the ONLY way you can gain access to these abilities is by taking rogue levels. To compensate, you would get them less often perhaps (or hell, you have less hp and bab so maybe that's enough).

I don't know though, thinking about it it still feels kind of forced in the differentiation between fighter and rogue (obviously there's a huge difference, but the way it's represented kind of sucks... trying to determine what would qualify as a bonus ability and not a feat, without just sticking all the rogue and monk class features into the list)

Also, I'd like to discuss enchantments. We haven't really touched on it besides deciding that wild growth being permanent can be cool; actually we might consider making all enchantments permanent. This would require them to be generally pretty weak... OR: all enchantments are dismissible as well (no big deal so far)... and until you dismiss the enchantment, you can't regain the spell slot that you cast it from. So you could make an enchantment like: Target creature gets regeneration (which maybe gives regeneration 5) and it would be powerful, but you couldn't really break the game with it because you're limited in how many enchantments you can cast. As an additional point maybe they can have a casting time of rounds or even minutes so it's not something you do during battle, but instead at the start of the day. Post your thoughts

mithrawnudo
2009-05-21, 11:49 PM
The knight is really really broken. It gains mana faster than the walker, and has better stats in everything, along with oodles of special abilities.

I'm going to backtrack on what I've said before and throw my hat into the ring with the three basic classes idea: walker, fighter, and some sort of rogue-ish type. Good small arms (daggers, hand to hand) combat and skills. You could mix and match and multi class. Only problem is that I can't see what the thief-styled class would be except for a bunch of bonus feats that would allow the same flexibility. Thoughts? Maybe something like.. how do you guys make the tables? You don't BB code those by hand I assume?

I do. Call me crazy.


Anyway; good reflex (symmetry with fighter having good fortitude and walker having good will) d6 hit dice, loads of skill points, and every couple of levels a 'Bonus ability'. What's a bonus ability? Just like the rogue has now, except a much larger list. It would be similar to the fighter's bonus feat concept, except that the ONLY way you can gain access to these abilities is by taking rogue levels. To compensate, you would get them less often perhaps (or hell, you have less hp and bab so maybe that's enough).

I don't know though, thinking about it it still feels kind of forced in the differentiation between fighter and rogue (obviously there's a huge difference, but the way it's represented kind of sucks... trying to determine what would qualify as a bonus ability and not a feat, without just sticking all the rogue and monk class features into the list)

Soldiers have no sort of mana at all, and I have a wizard class being worked on right now, and that would be the caster-class. The rogue I think would have feats and spells designed to help them.
The rogue would also be open to 3 colors, which is more than every other class other than Wizard.

I tried also to rebalance the Knight, but any other balancing tools are welcome.

EENick
2009-05-22, 11:08 AM
The Knight still seems way over powered.

I still don't think there is any point in remaking all the classes as opposed to making prestige classes but if you are all dead set on trying to do that I suggest for a rouge class to built it around the the following MTG keywords.

Prowl - These would basically be spells that could be cast as a quicken or free action whenever the rouge sneak attacks.

Ninjutsu - These spells would essentially allow the player to sub a summon (or summoned spirit or whatever) to make attacks for them. IE: They melee attack and basically allow themselves to be possessed for 1 round by a ninja spirit to attack for them. I think they would get over powered if they actually dropped Ninja's in except for the perhaps the higher level spells.

Flash - Always quickened spells.

Deathtouch - Already covered IMO with sneak attack.

Delve/Gravestorm - Ability to recharge spell like abilities or regain spells when delivering a death blow.

Morph - Give the theives a certain number of morph spiders and spell like abilities which can change them into a variety of forms.

Shadow - Ability to slip into the shadow realm for 1 turn. Striking from Shadow gives you a sneak attack.

Wither - Attacks which deal ability damage.

Hellbent - Bonuses to combat when out of spells and abilities

So something like......


Prowler
Game Rule Information
Prowlers have the following game statistics
Abilities
Int and Dex are the two primary ability scores of the Prowler.
Alingment
Any

HD: d6
Prowler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Plus one Black or Blue Mana,.

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0| Sneak attack +1d4.

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1| Plus one Black or Blue Mana.

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1| Sneak Attack +2d4

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1| Plus one Black or Blue mana

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2| Sneak Attack +3d4

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2| Plus one Black or Blue Mana.

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+2| Sneak Attack +4d4.

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+3| Plus one Black or Blue.

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+3| Sneak Attack +5d4. Delve.

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+3| Morph Spiders.

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4| Sneak Attack +6d4.

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4| Hellbent.

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+4| Sneak Attack +7d4.

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+5|Shadow.

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5| Sneak Attack +8d4.

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5| Wither.

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6| Sneak Attack +9d4.

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6| Flash

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6| Sneak Attack +10d4. [/table]

spells
{table=head]Level| 1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9

1st|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

2nd|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

3rd|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

4th|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

5th|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

6th|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

7th|3|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

8th|3|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

9th|3|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

10th|3|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

11th|3|3|2|1|0|0|0|0|0

12th|3|3|2|1|0|0|0|0|0

13th|3|3|3|1|0|0|0|0|0

14th|3|3|3|1|0|0|0|0|0

15th|3|3|3|2|1|0|0|0|0


16th|3|3|3|2|1|0|0|0|0

17th|3|3|3|3|1|0|0|0|0

18th|3|3|3|3|1|0|0|0|0

19th|3|3|3|3|2|0|0|0|0

20th|3|3|3|3|2|0|0|0|0 [/table]

Class Skills: A Prowler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 3 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Profiency: Prowlers are proficient with the crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Prowlers are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Spells: A Prowler casts mana spells which are drawn from the Prowler spell list. A Prowler must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below) but must also use his or her mana to pay for them at the time of casting.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Prowler must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Prowler’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Prowler’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Prowler can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the attached table.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a Prowler may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spelldeck. While studying, the Prowler decides which spells to prepare.

Spelldeck: A prowler must study her spelldeck, which is made up of Great Tarot like cards each representing a single spell, each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell she does not have a card for.
A Prowler begins play with a spellcards for three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Prowler has, the spelldeck holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new Prowler level, she gains two new spell cards of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new Prowler level) for her spelldeck. At any time, a Prowler can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellcards to her own deck.

(Modify this section as needed to adapt it to your spell system)
Mana: Mana is the energy drawn from the universe which a Prowler uses to cast their spells. A prowler starts with all mana available and untapped. When a prowler casts a spell any mana they used becomes tapped and is unusable again till them untap. Untaping restores all mana to available and untapped and is a move equivalent action.

Sneak Attack: This is almost exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d4 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If a prowler gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
Delve: Whenever a prowler deals the fatal blow to a creature all there mana untaps as a free action.

Morph Spiders: The Assassin gains the special ability to summon up 1d4+1 tiny morph spiders once per day. The spiders will obey commands but are not very intelligent and can’t follow anything more than the most simple instructions. They have 8 HP and have no special abilities. When not given orders they will follow behind the caster at a rate of equal to the caster’s normal movement speed. The spiders will remain for 1 minute per level of the prowler at the end of that time they turn black, shrivel and die.

Hellbent: When a prowler has no spells left for the day they can fight in a more single mindedly ferocious and almost berserker state. They gain a +2 bonus to hit/damage and AC.

Shadow: Once per day a prowler can slip out of phase with reality for 1 round. While in this state they appear weirdly ethereal. Attacks made from this state are the equivalent of a touch attack. The victim of this attack must make a reflex saving throw, if they fail they are vulnerable to a sneak attack as if they were caught flat footed. This is supernatural ability.

Wither: On a critical hit prowlers deal 1d4+1 damage to a random stat.

Flash: Once per day a prowler may quicken a 3rd level or lower spell.

Morsel Theft
Color: B
Level: Prowler 2
Mana: 2BB
Casting time: 1 standard Action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
If you succeed in a touch attack the victim of this spell takes 3d4 points of negative energy damage and you gain that much life.
Prowl 1B – You may cast this spell as a quickened action when you sneak attack instead of making a touch attack.

Throat Slitter
Color: Black
Level: Prowler 3
Mana: 2B
Casting time: See Spell Description
Range: One Attack
Duration: Instant
Effect: One attack
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
When a prowler makes a successful to hit, as free action they may cast this spell provided they can pay its mana cost. If they do instead of rolling for their normal damage they deal a critical hit.

Mistblade
Color: Blue
Level: Prowler 2
Mana: U
Casting time: See Spell Description
Range: One Attack
Duration: Instant
Effect: One attack
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
When a prowler makes a successful to hit roll they may cast this spell as a free action provided they can pay its mana cost. Their weapon gives off a strange bluish mist and instead of rolling for normal damage this attack deals 1d6 damage and the victim gets a -2 to hit, AC and saving throws for 1 round for each point of damage.

Dermoplasm
Color: Blue
Level: Prowler 5
Mana: 2UU
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Special
Target: One Morph Spider
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
When a prowler cast this spell they and all their equipment instantly vanish. Then one of the Prowler’s morph spider suddenly begins an explosive growth spurt for one round growing in size until it cracks open and the caster emerges from it. While growing this way any damage dealt to the spider it dealt to the prowler instead but use the morph spiders AC bonus of 0. This spell has no range limit so long as there is a available morph spider controlled by the caster somewhere on plane they are currently on. If the morph spider is somewhere it can’t grow to the proper size or there are no spiders available then the spell fails.

Aphetto Exterminator
Color: Black
Level: Prowler 4
Mana: 4B
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Special
Target: One Morph Spider
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
When this spell is cast one of the Prowler’s morph spiders begins a sudden growths spurt up to the size of about a large pumpkin for one round. Once the growth spurt is finished it instantly changes into a zombie like person. The exterminator always moves to flank whomever the prowler attacks on its turn and will attempt to perform a touch attack dealing 1d6 damage using the casters normal to hit. The exterminator has no AC bonus and 10 hit points. At the start of each round it automatically looses one hit point until it dies. The exterminator cannot be healed. This spell has no range limit so long as there is a available morph spider controlled by the caster somewhere on plane they are currently on. If the morph spider is somewhere it can’t grow to the proper size or there are no spiders available then the spell fails.

Kornaki
2009-05-22, 04:26 PM
I still don't think there is any point in remaking all the classes as opposed to making prestige classes but if you are all dead set on trying to do that I suggest for a rouge class to built it around the the following MTG keywords.

Like I said in my last post, not all the classes.. but just having a fighter and a wizard class, you've got a huge whole for people who want skill oriented classes. Hell, something like the expert would be good enough (hey, that's not a bad idea... throw in a couple bonus feats and you're good to go)

Then make every special ability that seems like it should carry over into this game a feat. Evasion might require dodge and mobility, Smite evil might require a white mana (smite good a black mana) etc. You could even make a separate list of bonus feats that the expert is allowed to take

dentrag2
2009-05-22, 10:57 PM
Well, Cycling could work like this (But it would probably have to be a metamagic feat.) :

With cycling, you can discard a spell you prepared for the day and gain a random one off the list of spells you know. You gain as many as you could with the converted mana cost of the spells you lost.


I'm just wondering why we aren't using the Arcana Unearthed style-magic where you can apply templates to spells if you take the right feat.


Indestructable could easily become a spell that gives you DR 20/+5 for, say, three rounds. It would be colorless.

Kornaki
2009-05-22, 11:14 PM
If I have thirty spells in my spellbook, it's a pain in the ass to choose one at random. Plus, there's no real roleplay reason for why that should work



I'm just wondering why we aren't using the Arcana Unearthed style-magic where you can apply templates to spells if you take the right feat.

Huh?

Athaniar
2009-05-23, 09:15 AM
Please, please, please remove alignment altogether. In Magic, mana is alignment, and alignment is mana.

dentrag2
2009-05-23, 09:26 PM
If I have thirty spells in my spellbook, it's a pain in the ass to choose one at random. Plus, there's no real roleplay reason for why that should work



Huh?



I'm probably the only person who has that book... It's a variant players handbook.

Arcana Unearthed is different from Unearthed Arcana.

Want me to give some examples?

Edit: Roleplay reason? I'm here to work on mechanics.
Yeah yeah, it's a pain to randomize it, but cycling normally lets you draw additional cards at the cost of that card (Discarding it)

So it's usable, but lame.

Kornaki
2009-05-23, 09:45 PM
Yes, we're working on mechanics but it should make sense from a 'why can you cycle through spells like that' point of view

Otherwise we might as well just do it like in Yu-gi-oh and have everyone carry a deck with them

dentrag2
2009-05-23, 09:52 PM
Yes, we're working on mechanics but it should make sense from a 'why can you cycle through spells like that' point of view

Otherwise we might as well just do it like in Yu-gi-oh and have everyone carry a deck with them



Good god no.

Anyway, i've picked up a lot of Mirrodin and Shadowmoor cards, so do you want me to look for some specific effects?

Kornaki
2009-05-23, 11:08 PM
Ok, here's a good description: In Mtg it's kind of like you have so many spells that you can cast, but you're just casting about for whichever ones come to mind. In DnD you don't have that same effect, which is why cycling makes less sense

Kornaki
2009-05-24, 07:29 AM
EDIT: Whoops, posted this in the wrong thread :smallyuk:

Ok, some more spell idea. From green (I decide to take a shot at summoning)

Regeneration
Color: Green
Level: Walker 3
Mana: 1G
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent (see description) (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
The spell causes the subject to regenerate similar to a troll. The subject gains Regeneration 5, and is vulnerable to fire and acid. At the beginning of each turn, you must pay one green mana or the spell ends.


Beast Attack
Color: Green
Level: Walker 6
Mana: 2GGG
Casting time: 1 immediate action
Range: Close
Target: None
Duration: One combat (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
You call upon the animals of the wild to aid you. You summon one dire bear anywhere within the range of the spell. The animal obeys you until there are no enemies in sight, after which it is unsummoned

Flashback 2GGG (whatever this means :smallsmile: )


Berserk
Color: Green
Level: Walker 5
Mana: G
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Target: One willing creature
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
You double the strength of one willing creature. At the end of your next turn, the creature dies. No effect that prevents death effects can prevent this from occurring. (summoned creatures always count as willing)


Fog
Color: Green
Level: Walker 1
Mana: G
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Duration: Five minutes
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

A moderate wind (11+ mph), such as from a gust of wind spell, disperses the fog in 4 rounds. A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area. A wall of fire burns away the fog in the area into which it deals damage.

This spell does not function underwater.

(hey, some spells come pre-made for us)


Killer Bees
Color: Green
Level: Walker 2
Mana: 1GG
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium
Duration: Permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
You summon a swarm of bees (equivalent statistics to a locust swarm in MM, except instead of Distraction nauseating the creature, the creature must make a Will save or be shaken for a round). You perfectly control its actions via a magical link. The spell lasts until there are no more creatures left to order the swarm to attack


Horned Troll
Color: Green
Level: Walker 5
Mana: 2G
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Duration: Permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
You summon a troll (see MM for statistics). You control it perfectly via a magical link. The spell lasts until there are no more creatures for you to order it to attack.


One Dozen Eyes
Color: Green
Level: Walker 4
Mana: 5G
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Duration: Permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance:No
Effect:
Choose one: You summon either a lion or five giant ants (see MM for statistics) . Whichever creatures you summon, you control them perfectly via a magical link. The spell lasts until there are no more creatures for you to order them to attack.
Entwine - GGG (when you cast the spell, if you pay the entwine cost you may pick both options)

Cool note: when you first get this spell you may not be able to afford to cast it with entwine

DracoDei
2009-05-24, 10:04 PM
With only 3 colors, less mana, and six spell levels, there is no way they wshould have that many spells known and/or learned by level-up.

dentrag2
2009-05-25, 08:28 AM
Korn, in MTG, Flashback lets you play spells again from the grave before removing them from the game.

Not very useful in D&D.

EENick
2009-05-25, 10:15 AM
Korn, in MTG, Flashback lets you play spells again from the grave before removing them from the game.

Not very useful in D&D.

Actually I couldn't disagree more. The ability to cast a spell twice would be extreamly useful in D&D. I don't know anyone who wouldn't want more fireballs perday. Plus it would let you diversify your spells a bit. IE: Instead of memorizing two fireballs you memorize one with flashback and an ice spell in case you run into something immune to fire.

The problem with flashback IMO is that it requires to much book keeping and would end up slowing down the game which is why I suggested a somewhat different take on it.

Kornaki
2009-05-25, 01:53 PM
I don't see where the book keeping comes in. I have a list of spells. I cross off the spell when I have cast it. If it has flashback, I write down something like

Fire Bolt (Flashback)

When I cast it, it now says

Fire Bolt (Flashback)

And when I use the flashback

Fire Bolt (Flashback)

EENick
2009-05-25, 07:48 PM
Yea except you also need to keep track of mana costs, we've got no way to remove things from the graveyard which is one things which put healthy check on any graveyard effet on MTG and generally it is just one more thing to keep track of in an already somewhat paperwork heavy class.

You are correct some people won't have a problem with it, but many will. At least in the circles I play it in most can't be bother to keep track of much more then their ammo count. Each little bit more we add to keep track of takes a little bit of enjoyment away.

So you are right, it won't end the world or anything like that by itself. But anything we can do cut down on the items players need to keep track of and could slow down the game is generally a good thing.

So yea, maybe we could just make flashback as strait forward as all that, but then again maybe we could do better too.

That is all I am saying. If not one else is worried then I suppose flashback will be fine as long as we balance it right in each spell.

Athildur
2009-08-11, 03:26 PM
Even though I'm fearing slight retribution for reviving an old thread: how is this going?

I'm working on a campaign setting for Magic the Gathering (for D&D 3.x) and if people are interested I'd most certainly appreciate help and input, as well as potential playtesters.

If you're interested, drop me a PM.

Of course, I'm similarly available to help if you need help finishing up your own ideas about M:tG D&D.