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Totally Guy
2009-05-17, 10:15 AM
I'd like to see some of the cool ideas the playground has to offer for full Paragon Multiclass builds, I refuse to believe that there is nothing awesome down this avenue. We'll take them as far as level 12 because by then it's pretty clear how it works and what it does.

Classes with attribute Dependent Powers
{table]Strength|Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Warden, Warlord
Constitution|Warlock
Dexterity|Ranger, Rogue
Intellegence|Wizard
Wisdom|Avenger, Cleric, Druid, Invoker, Shaman
Charisma|Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock[/table]

Implement Dependencies
{table]|Dagger [W]|H-Symbol|Rod|Wand|Orb|Staff[W]|Totem
Str||||||||
Con|Warlock (Pact Blade)||Warlock|Warlock||||
Dex
Int||||Wizard|Wizard|Wizard||
Wis||Avenger, Cleric|Invoker|||Druid, Invoker|Druid, Shaman
Cha|Sorcerer, Warlock (Pact Blade)|Paladin|Warlock|Bard, Warlock||Sorcerer|[/table]

Glug's Half-Elf Bard Sorcerer Level 12
Attributes
Str:15+1=16
Con:11+2+3=16
Dex:10+1=11
Int:12+1=13
Wis:8+1=9
Cha:17+2+3=22

Equipment:
+3 Gith Plate (+13),
+3 Staff,
+3 Amulet

Defences
HP: 83
AC: 29
Fort: 22
Ref: 21
Will: 26

Feats
Class:Ritual Caster
1:Arcane Prodigy
2:Scale Proficiency
4:Novice Power
6:Plate Proficiency
8:Acolyte Power
10:Adept Power
11:Versatile Master
12:Implement Expertise Staff

At-Will Powers:
Bard 1: Guiding Strike
Sorcerer 1: Chaos Bolt
Sorcerer 1 Dilettante: Burning Spray
Encounter Powers:
Bard 1: Inspiring Refrain
Bard 3: Chargers Call
Sorcerer 7: Crushing Sphere
Sorcerer 7: Shout
Daily Powers:
Bard 1: Slayers Song
Bard 5: Word of Mystic Warding
Sorcerer 9: Prime the Fire
Utility Powers:
Bard 2: Inspire Competence
Sorcerer 6: Sudden Scales
Bard 10: Word of Life
Barbarian 10: Heart Strike

Basically this guy is a heavy armour wearing staff gish. All his Bard powers are melee ones which he uses with his staff as a weapon and all his Sorcerer ones are blasts using the staff as an implement. Sorcerer Powers are generally +16 to hit a NAD and Bard Powers are generally +17 to hit AC.

What else is fun?

Asbestos
2009-05-17, 11:20 AM
There was a feat in the Monk playtest article for PCs that use weapons as implements so that they don't have to take an Expertise feat twice (and basically make them less viable than PCs that focus on weapons or implements only)

Here it is:
Focused Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon that you can wield
as an implement. You gain a +1 bonus to attack
rolls with any implement or weapon power you use
through that weapon. The bonus increases to +2 at
15th level and +3 at 25th level.

Totally Guy
2009-05-17, 11:31 AM
Here it is:
Focused Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon that you can wield
as an implement. You gain a +1 bonus to attack
rolls with any implement or weapon power you use
through that weapon. The bonus increases to +2 at
15th level and +3 at 25th level.

That's new and interesting but I'm using an Implement as a Weapon not the other way around. Does it still work?

AgentPaper
2009-05-17, 11:35 AM
I think, by raw, an implement staff and a weapon staff are two different things. You could probably get it houseruled without any trouble though, of course.

Gralamin
2009-05-17, 11:49 AM
I think, by raw, an implement staff and a weapon staff are two different things. You could probably get it houseruled without any trouble though, of course.

By RAW an implement Staff is also a weapon staff, but not Vice Versa.

A staff implement can also function as a quarterstaff

If paragon multiclassing is ever going to be good, I agree it has to be done by a bard. There is one important feat:
Combat Virtuoso: All attack powers gained through multiclass feats, Paragon multiclassing, or Dilettante use charisma for the attack roll. (So you use charisma to hit with a fighter power, but still roll damage normally)

A few other key notes:
Remember, you can retrain your heroic feats into paragon feats (Or paragon into epic, or heroic into epic) starting at 11th level.

Weapon / Implement / Focused Expertise: Focused Expertise is the best, but Invariably you may end up using multiple expertise feats. Trying to avoid this gives the best results.

Mage's Weapons: These things are cheesy, but good. They're from Adventurer's Vault.

Jothki
2009-05-17, 06:04 PM
Can things that reference weapons alone affect implements that are wielded as weapons? If yes, then an implement that can be wielded as a weapon can be viewed as a 'weapon' that can be wielded as an implement (because it is an implement).

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-17, 06:14 PM
I'm a religious follower of the Githyanki (Infernal Pact) Warlock / Wizard build. Spike damage and controller ability at a range? Yes please. The multiclass paragon path and demigod epic destiny make this build ALMOST a one man party. All it needs is more self healing capability than divine regeneration and infernal curse temp hp.

Colmarr
2009-05-17, 08:09 PM
I personally like the Tiefling Chaladin/Wizard combo, especially if you get him a Crusader's weapon so he doesn't need a weapon, holy symbol, and implement.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-18, 03:52 AM
I'd like to see some of the cool ideas the playground has to offer for full Paragon Multiclass builds, I refuse to believe that there is nothing awesome down this avenue.
There's the half-elf of doom...

I don't think I've seen any strong usage of PMC that does not involve the versatile master feat.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-18, 04:05 AM
I just had one presented to me.

Basically it involves being a Half Elf Avenger, taking Twin Strike or Dual Strike and making it at will with the racial feat, and trading all your dailies and encounters for good minor action Fighter or Warlord powers.

Then make Str your primary, ignore all your avenger powers and stats, and use Oath of Enmity with Twin/Dual Strike and minor action buffs. (And Rain of Blows, because it's just that good, and even better with Oath of Enmity).

Break
2009-05-18, 11:16 AM
I just had one presented to me.

Basically it involves being a Half Elf Avenger, taking Twin Strike or Dual Strike and making it at will with the racial feat, and trading all your dailies and encounters for good minor action Fighter or Warlord powers.

Then make Str your primary, ignore all your avenger powers and stats, and use Oath of Enmity with Twin/Dual Strike and minor action buffs. (And Rain of Blows, because it's just that good, and even better with Oath of Enmity).

The problem with this is that you're going to be horribly ineffective in heroic tier due to being unable to use a great deal of your avenger powers - most of the power switches don't take place until Paragon, so you're still stuck with avenger power baggage. Remember, Dilettante doesn't show up until Paragon, so you're stuck without Twin Strike for a long while unless the game starts at paragon.

Once you're there, though, it's pretty solid, though taking Eternal Seeker to replace the rest of your avenger powers is pretty much necessary in Epic - this denies you the benefits of a destiny like Demigod, though, so there's that tradeoff.

The build is nice in that it basically take advantage of all that's usable on the Avenger while discarding the rest - Oath is really nice, but the powers are bleh, and the stat array that Avengers normally get pretty much prevent them from taking weapon feats. This multiclass build addresses both of those, but it's very much a late bloomer.

Totally Guy
2009-05-18, 12:14 PM
I don't think I've seen any strong usage of PMC that does not involve the versatile master feat.

I can't really see how a caster can fully utilise it though. You end up attacking with a different attribute or implement. Of course I'm overlooking the Combat Virtuoso thing Gralamin mentioned. It's very handy for the utility however, that's a lot of options right there.