Diablo 2 LoD - The thismany-th thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Dallas-Dakota

2009-05-18, 07:02 AM

Hello and welcome (again), my fellow gamers.

The old thread died, also it had some complaints about the format of the archive.

And why am I making a new thread? For new things.
A new version is coming, 1.13 out of my head, and with that. The ladder is coming down! These facts have brought me to play again.

Where we play?

We mainly play on the realm of US east.
There are a few, like Fleeing Coward, I think, that play on US west.
And almost nobody plays on Europe or Asia.
Then the most of us play Ladder. With a few of us also playing(or maining) on non-ladder, like me.
And occasionaly we have bouts into Hardcore. But thats not often done anymore.

When do we play?
Overal, lots of us play here and there. Especially since some of us are based in Europe and some of us are based in the USA. Giving it a major time difference of around 4-7 hours. Depending on where you live.

Back when we had weekly meetings(on top of randomly playing when you/we felt like it), it was on a Sunday evening, at 11 or 10 o clock, at GMT +1 time.
Do we want weekly meetings again, for more regular and steady group play again? If yes, when would be the most probable time you could come on a regular, weekly base?

Members of the D2 LoD group.
Now, there will be two main groups here, active. And inactive.
If you have posted here, or I´ve seen you play, in the last 2-3 weeks. Then you are active. If not, then you will be classified as unactive.
You need to post in this thread to be archived. It does not matter if you were member of the previous group or not.

I was on the old archive, I used to play and/or post (here) with you guys, but I´m not on the list yet!

Well that can be due to a few causes :
A I just simply haven´t had time to update the archive yet.
B You weren´t clear if you were going to play (again). (Please be clear about that)
C I´m stupid, its completely my fault and I´ve missed you or something. If this is the case, then I am terribly sorry.

Thus, following, the player archive.

D2 LoD member archive.

Active Players

Softcore

Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
DD the cookiemonster|Beriothien-L|DD-buzzranger|12| Amazon - Javazon
||||
[/table]

Non-Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
DD the Cookiemonster|Dallas-Dakota|DD-MChammertime|87| Paladin - Hammerdin
||DD-Cold|80| Sorc - Cold(blizzard)
||Penguin-Master|84| Paladin - Frost Zealot
[/table]

Hardcore

Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

Non-Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

Inactive Players

Softcore

Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

Non-Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

Hardcore

Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

Non-Ladder

{table=head] ITP name | D2 LoD account name | Character name | level | Class
||||
||||
[/table]

FAQ

What is the difference between ladder and non-ladder?

The difference between Ladder and non-ladder is, is that ladder is more competitie and also has a ranking for the highest characters, where non-ladder does not. Ladder and Non ladder are completely seperate, except when the ladder go´s down, usually when a new version comes up. Then everything in ladder goes to non-ladder. As to give new players a chance at the top.

There also several items you can´t make or get in non-ladder, that you can get in ladder. Thus these ladder-only items are rarer and more expensive in non-ladder. The further away from a ladder comedown, the more expensive the item will get, in non-ladder.

What is the difference between Hardcore and Softcore?
In hardcore, when you die. You´re dead. In softcore, you get ressurected in camp again with either a loss in money or xp.
They are completely seperate.

Why don´t we or more people play on other realms?

Because the main playerbase is based on US east. Also, the europe d2 LoD community isn´t as good as the one on US East.(For trading, getting rushed, etc.)

Feel free to ask anything, it will also get added to this list and you´l get your answer as best as we can give it!

Pfw, I think I spend more then half an hour formatting and typing this post.

Also, if you´re on Ladder, Softcore on US east. And you have no idea on what to do with all your stuff when the ladder comes down. Feel free to give it to me.(I would say, another name orso, but I can´t remember others who play SC L on US East.)

Krytha

2009-05-19, 08:20 AM

Well, I guess it would depend on what changes in 1.13.

What I would really love is if they had an option to copy your characters on BNET to your harddrive... just once...

Dallas-Dakota

2009-05-19, 08:27 AM

I think that´d give even more options for cheating. So they probably won´t do that.

Winterwind

2009-05-19, 09:37 AM

Not if it was one way only. As long as they don't allow to copy a character from your harddrive to BNet, it would not make cheating any easier.

Oh yeah, you can probably put me down under 'Inactive' (for Ladder, both Soft- and Hardcore). I likely won't have the time to play D2 in any foreseeable future, but such things can change at a moment's notice with me... :smallwink:

nooblade

2009-05-19, 10:09 AM

That would let you use cool runewords like Spirit and Insight in Single Player without "cheating" (depending on your definition of cheating).

Maybe if 1.13 is cool, I'd come out and play d2 with you guys again. Well, probably either way I would once in a blue moon, I still haven't gone all the way with an Assassin character, got bored on every start, maybe this time I would.

I was into hardcore for a bit but overall it seemed to reduce the number of people I could play with rather than make the game more interesting.

Penguinizer

2009-05-19, 10:28 AM

Hmm. It's been forever since I played D2. I should play it again. I played on the EU Realm. I think my old characters have all been deleted due to inactivity...

ocato

2009-05-19, 11:48 AM

I got into it a bit a few weeks back, haven't been on in a bit though. Ocato (account name). I usually play Sharona, the Fire Sorc of Dooooom on USEast. If we have playgrounders afoot, maybe I'll be around more.

Optimystik

2009-05-20, 01:45 AM

If I get back into it again, I'm buying tals and runewords. NO MORE MEPH RUNS. :smallyuk:

u-gotNOgame

2009-05-20, 09:00 AM

Hm, put me down under inactive as well... i just don't have the time, maybe during the summer i can get on more often. DD if you want my HCL gear after the reset you can have it, then again theres not much left. I think i quit after i lost the fourth reincarnation of my Singer Barb who had most of my high level stuff on him.

-UGNG

toddex

2009-05-20, 02:07 PM

Theres a program for copying your Online characters to offline. It used to be on Diabloii.net or diabloiii.net now I guess, under utilities.

PaladinFreak

2009-05-21, 12:00 AM

Hey everyone.

I'm an active player, USWest ladder, but I'll move over to East if there are enough people around. I'm GMT +8:00, and I'm usually around on Fri-Sat-Sun evenings. Not this coming weekend though. Look for a Paladin (low lvl) called Resolute (USwest) or Immovable (USeast). This is my main character.

See you all in the game.

Hopefully.

Fleeing Coward

2009-05-21, 01:02 AM

Put me down as inactive, finally got bored of the game. DD, if you ever decide to convert to US West NL, let me know and I'll get you started with some real godly stuff (I have legit copies of every perfect unique/runeword that's avaiable :smallbiggrin: (excluding zbug/hacked items and my eth upped toothrow is 1 off perfect :smallfrown:)).

Penguinizer

2009-05-21, 12:57 PM

I've had Diablo 2 for a long time, I should start playing it again. I'll make an account for whatever realm we're playing in.

Add me as inactive or pseudoactive. I have no idea if I'll ever get around to actually playing.

Dallas-Dakota

2009-05-21, 03:45 PM

Winterwind? Inactive?....But....You've been with us everytime....Even before I joined....

FC, Finally? O.o But I'l most likely say on East. Mostly cause I still have some godly's left from my remaining last mule.

Will update the member archive tomorrow. Promise.

u-gotNOgame

2009-05-21, 05:32 PM

It should also be noted that if you stop by Channel "Op GitP" on US east you might be able to persuade some people on Warcraft/Starcraft to switch over and come play with you. And even if they don't we use that as our base of operations to meet other player and generally avoid spam.

-UGNG

Fleeing Coward

2009-05-23, 11:00 PM

FC, Finally? O.o But I'l most likely say on East. Mostly cause I still have some godly's left from my remaining last mule.

Well, I got bored of the game after like 3 months. I just wasted 2 more years trading for all my godlies.
(Last rough estimate I did based on current prices, my accounts are worth betwen 150-250k on JSP depending on demand for some of my rares :smallbiggrin:)

hajo

2009-05-24, 07:29 PM

I'm still active, main account "hajo1" on US east.

if you stop by Channel "Op GitP" on US east
It would be nice to have the list of actually useful commands directly in the description-part of the bot, e.g. ".whois .seen .afklist .listnicks .fl".

u-gotNOgame

2009-05-25, 06:42 PM

It would be nice to have the list of actually useful commands directly in the description-part of the bot, e.g. ".whois .seen .afklist .listnicks .fl".

Well, thats mostly for the starcraft/warcraft session, it works best if you add the bot to you friends list. Also we'll have to give you all access so you can use commands like that. There used to be a list in the profile, or is it just the link to the command sheet now? To get that put up you'll have to talk to Cynan Machae... honestly he doesn't change much when it comes to the bot, you'll just have to tell people what commands are usefull.

-UGNG

Penguinizer

2009-06-21, 01:26 PM

Well, I've got a new character. Although I created it in the Europe realm, mainly since I live in Europe. If anyone plays on the Europe realm, give Penguinizer a message.

Winterwind

2009-06-21, 01:42 PM

I've been feeling like playing again lately. :smallsmile:

I think I shall start a Hardcore paladin next week. Still torn between the Avenger build (my favourite D2 build of all) and the mindnumbing power of the Hammerdin, probably will go with the former though.

Penguinizer

2009-06-21, 01:51 PM

Winterwind

2009-06-21, 02:02 PM

The problem I'm having with my level 26 Barbarian is largely survival. I think I hit rather decently (22-88 unless I remember wrong) with dual wielded giant swords. The problem is that the only way I have of surviving is to spam healing potions. Is there any good way to increase my survivability?Life Leech. Lots of it. It's what keeps physical damage dealing characters alive.

Also, remember that Vitality is pretty much the most important stat and you should always invest as much into it as possible.

Also, 22-88 sounds rather low to me for level 26. You might want to consider getting some runeworded weapon; if you happen to have an Amn, Strength (AmnTir) might be nice, as it also gives bonus Vitality and (due to the Amn) Life Leech.
Damage wise, Malice (IthElEth) or King's Grace (AmnRalThul) would be better though, the latter would even have the benefit of Life Leech as well.

Penguinizer

2009-06-21, 02:07 PM

I'm currently using the TirEl runeword on a Giant Sword, and a yellow Giant Sword with knockback and damage boosts. I'll try to get my hands on another double socketed sword and an Amn rune. Malice sounds like a possibility, but I'll need to get an Ith rune.

Winterwind

2009-06-21, 02:17 PM

Steel definitely isn't bad either, that's true. You're approaching regions where it starts being outclassed though.

I think I would recommend King's Grace the most out of those, even though it is the most expensive; it has 7% Life Leech, 100% Enhanced Damage and a whole lot of other benefits.

Penguinizer

2009-06-21, 05:51 PM

I'd like to go with King's Grace, but I lack the Amn needed. Right now, my rune inventory looks like:
3x Ort
2x Tal
1x Thul
3x Eld
2x Nef
1x Tir
1x Ral
2x El
2x Eth

This is largely since I've been playing with a friend who doesn't feel like messing about with runewords, so he's been leaving them to me. Since the Act5 hirelings use two-handed swords, I gave my old Giant Sword to him, along with my Berserker's Hauber. I decided to get Field Plate with a poison resist enchant. I'll probably replace this with Gothic plate or a good set of rare/magic armor I get as a drop.

The low damage I did earlier was largely due to dualwielding damage penalties, but when I started single-wielding I started doing a good bit more damage. Currently it's at about 68-160 or so.

On another matter. Diablo was a pain in the backside. That laser attack he had was horribly annoying to dodge, it turned into a battle of attrition.

Winterwind

2009-06-22, 11:54 AM

About Diablo, you have to watch him closely. Whenever he is about to launch the Red Lightning, he first throws up his hands in the air; when you see him do that, you must immediately start circling him (unless he is targeting someone other than you, of course).

nooblade

2009-06-22, 11:44 PM

If you have a fast movement ability like charge, leap/leap attack, teleport, or just boots with nice run/walk, you can use that to flee directly away from the red lightning hose of death as well. Being out of its range is fun (and a better alternative if you have low fire resistance) but watch out for him charging in and using that ability again. Really nice how his worst ability has the longest casting time.

For me, I don't like sword Barbarians much. I guess the faster attack speed is good for a handful of the skills (frenzy, whirlwind, and concentrate come to mind), but the really slow weapons bring out fun builds with berserk (which doesn't leech, so you want a lot out of each use) or Leap Attack (attack speed is largely irrelevant). Mauls come into the game at a good time for those builds.

Winterwind

2009-06-23, 06:29 AM

So I've started playing again. I guess you can file me under Active after all, DD. :smallcool:

The account name is still Winterwind_GitP, ladder, hardcore only, the character is Whiteblade, a Paladin-Avenger, who's just finished rescuing Cain.

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-23, 01:33 PM

If you read back DD said that he won't be maintaining this thread anymore... So I lied, but I swear it must've been in a different thread...
I can't believe you started without me :smallfrown:, it's alright I'll just have to catch up. Also about what time are you playing just so i know.

-UGNG

Winterwind

2009-06-23, 01:59 PM

Oh, sorry - I actually thought you had already started, and I was doing the catching-up part. :smalltongue:

As for when I'm playing... varies, yesterday it was around 5 or 6 PM EST and lasted for 2-3 hours. Today... I think I'll be logging on in a few minutes. :smallwink:

Penguinizer

2009-06-23, 05:19 PM

Well, first playthrough of the game is complete. Penguinizer, the level 34 Barbarian and his friend finally grind through Baal and the Secret Cow Level. I'm still lacking an Amn rune though. Whirlwind works great though, with the MP recovery from my Nadir helmet, and Manald Heal ring. I'm hoping that the higher difficulties go as easily.

Winterwind

2009-06-23, 06:17 PM

bloodlover

2009-06-25, 03:00 PM

Are you guys still playing? I want to start again on B net and I have been looking for a group :smallsmile:

nooblade

2009-06-25, 03:34 PM

We met last Tuesday, I don't know if there is a dedicated time yet for people to come.

So far we have been playing in Hardcore mode, which I think is a mistake because people will be less likely to join us (and it's also really silly if UGNG is just going to get equipment from outside sources). Good for you if you like HC though.

Amiria

2009-06-25, 03:38 PM

Hajo and me are still on often, we both play SC (on US East).

My account name is Amiria.

Zocelot

2009-06-25, 03:40 PM

I don't play at the moment, but I think I'm going to start again soon. I'll probably use the US East server.

bloodlover

2009-06-25, 03:43 PM

So when are you usually on? I am from Romania and right now here it is 11.41 PM... I would like to start a pally ^.^

edit: post here a date and maybe we can all meet in game

nooblade

2009-06-25, 03:49 PM

Oh noes with the timezones.

Battle.net time right now is about 9:00 PM, and you can also look at the timestamp on this forum post in your local time I'm sure. We met maybe two days and four hours ago?

Of course, I'm not sure if that's actually a good time for Winterwind. Or anyone.

bloodlover

2009-06-25, 03:53 PM

Well let's talk with the others and maybe something will come out of this. I am usually at my PC 16/24 7 days a week

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-25, 04:18 PM

So far we have been playing in Hardcore mode, which I think is a mistake because people will be less likely to join us (and it's also really silly if UGNG is just going to get equipment from outside sources). Good for you if you like HC though.

They don't have to play HC, it just means that I (most likely) won't be playing with them. I spent 2 years playing SC and have tried out almost every common build, I find that HC is more fun for me, so thats what I play. If you, or anyone else, doesn't feel that way then I'm not saying they can't play SC. I never planned to actually make a group out of this, so if they want to get toghether and play SC thats fine, I'll solo in HC or go play with the AB crowd.

Also if you want to play no twink I'd be happy to not bring those items into our games. I just thought that since community is a large part of why you play online you wouldn't mind me going out and getting items for my chars, even though i havn't yet. The only real twink gear we have is those two Kwills that you supplied.

-UGNG

nooblade

2009-06-25, 04:54 PM

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-25, 11:40 PM

I think part of the reason why Hardcore is fun is that you only have the equipment that you get for yourself outside of trading (keep in mind that a Wizardspike is still a huge item for me, akin to Enigmas).

It's good that you have contact with Basiners, because I'd play more sporadically if it were just me.

Accumulating wealth is hard at first on a new ladder, if you have resouces I don't see why not use them in HC just as you do in SC. But if you want to play no twink, or just personal items then thats fine. The true test of the game is in playing during the rough patches, not the easy ones. And wheres the fun in instantly maxed resists and all the FCR you need anyways.

-UGNG

Winterwind

2009-06-26, 06:26 AM

My position regarding Hardcore vs. Softcore is pretty much the same one as UGNG's - feel free to play Softcore as you please (and it's not like there are no other Playgrounders who play Softcore as well), it just means I won't be playing with you, as I find Hardcore immensely more fun. Primarily because I find Hardcore restores a lot of Diablo 1's atmosphere - suddenly, it becomes prudent to move carefully again, and there is a thrill of a real danger involved, rather than just a minor inconvenience.

As for items, personally I think I'd prefer to play without some massive influx of wealth from outside; gathering up that equipment and getting better and richer is part of what makes the game fun, after all.

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 09:38 AM

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-26, 09:46 AM

See, now buying itmes I would probably be against, it's perfectly possible to make it through the game without grinding bosses. Most of the things that I would trade for would come from Pgems that I've cubed up throughout the ladder (since I never deleted my chars). Thats fine however; no twink it is.

-UGNG

Winthur

2009-06-26, 09:53 AM

Too bad I never found any genuine interest in D2 as much as I did in D1. D2 just isn't quite as gripping... playing a Barbarian was such a chore (it was really sloooow to kill anything because of ridiculous clvl differences between my character and the bosses. Gosh, Izual and Baal are the masters of borefest).

And I had way too much of respect for Griswold to just see him die like this. (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/milkshakebringsallthebo.jpg/)

Maybe when the ladder is reset, I will try this game again. But Normal difficulty without any gear is way too boring for my testes (that's what she said) tastes.

Winterwind

2009-06-26, 10:36 AM

I'd never play Hardcore past a certain level without gearing up, and since my time is better spent doing actual work than running Meph/Countess/Andariel/Dury until my fingers bleed, I'd probably buy some gear from one of the Korean farmers. D2items was pretty cheap IIRC.

Haven't played in years and I gave it all away again, but if I were to get back in you'd better believe that's what I'd do.When simply playing the game one finds perfectly enough gear to survive. Yes, one may not end up with the most powerful runewords and unique items boosting all skills to 35+, all resistances at 85% and a perfect Call To Arms in the second weapon slot, but so what? Perfectly normal rare items and the occasional lucky find suffice just fine.

Too bad I never found any genuine interest in D2 as much as I did in D1. D2 just isn't quite as gripping... playing a Barbarian was such a chore (it was really sloooow to kill anything because of ridiculous clvl differences between my character and the bosses. Gosh, Izual and Baal are the masters of borefest). I'm not sure what clvl difference you are talking about, unless you were rushing incredibly through the levels; however, yes, the fights against Izzy and Baal can take a while simply due to both of them having truly massive amounts of hitpoints.
If you want to shorten these fights immensly, play a Sorceress. Any Sorc can kill either Izual or Baal on Normal within 10 seconds, easily.

Zocelot

2009-06-26, 10:43 AM

On hardcore: I like the concept, but I think the punishment is a little too severe. Something where I am incovenienced (like having to wait 48 hours) would be fine with me, but I don't want hundreds of hours going to waste.

Winthur

2009-06-26, 11:19 AM

I'm not sure what clvl difference you are talking about, unless you were rushing incredibly through the levels; however, yes, the fights against Izzy and Baal can take a while simply due to both of them having truly massive amounts of hitpoints.
If you want to shorten these fights immensly, play a Sorceress. Any Sorc can kill either Izual or Baal on Normal within 10 seconds, easily.

It's a fact I learned from a great Diablo 2 player, Sullla, from RealmsBeyond. In his Meatbag the Defiant (a Defiance paladin) report, he wrote this:

Lister was the hardest fight of the bunch, due to his very fast attack speed. I also noted that I was having a lot of trouble hitting him; I later checked the Arreat Summit and found that that was due to him having a ridiculous mlvl of 60 or something like that. Yet another way the game makes it so tough for melee characters...

Baal is of course another example of a foe with a crazy mlvl (60), making it extremely tough for a melee character to fight him. I quickly found that his attacks weren't particularly dangerous in terms of hurting me. Baal's melee attack is unimpressive, and his magical ones were mostly canceled out by my high resists. His dreaded "Orange" blast has fortunately been toned down from some of the earlier versions of D2X (when it was pretty much a one-hit kill). However, to compensate for this, Blizzard instead gave Baal enormous amounts of hit points, Izual part two. Even in Normal, Baal has 26,000 hit points (Mephisto has 6000, in comparison). It really makes you wonder what the hell they were thinking with that. It really doesn't make the fighter harder, just... longer.

Apparently, your Attack Rating means crap when you have to fight a monster with a lot higher level than you - in this case, you will hit really rarely. (after fullclearing and a little bit of grinding on Baalruns my Barbarian was left with 40 clvl [without grinding, I would be 36]) In effect, it was just a long fight (about 20 minutes) consisted of just quaffing reds from time to time (and I was never in any real danger) and clicking LMB. :smallsigh:

And about Sorceress... I played one only for MF. In Diablo 1, I preferred the subtlety and tactics that Warrior and Rogue classes needed rather than the brute force approach of a 1100 mana Sorcerer backed with a 19 level Fireball.

I don't feel as experienced enough on D2 to play HC... but hey, if this means spending more time with WC3/SC group, then I will play even a nude Molten Boulder druid if need be! :smallbiggrin:

Winterwind

2009-06-26, 12:56 PM

Apparently, your Attack Rating means crap when you have to fight a monster with a lot higher level than you - in this case, you will hit really rarely. (after fullclearing and a little bit of grinding on Baalruns my Barbarian was left with 40 clvl [without grinding, I would be 36]) In effect, it was just a long fight (about 20 minutes) consisted of just quaffing reds from time to time (and I was never in any real danger) and clicking LMB. :smallsigh:To say AR means crap against a higher leveled monster is vastly exaggerated.
The formula is, specifically,
ToHit[%] = 200*[AR/(AR+MAC)]*[CLVL/(CLVL+MLVL)],
where
AR = your Attack Rating,
MAC = the monster's Armor Class,
CLVL = your level
MLVL = the monster's level

So, with clvl 40 against a mlvl of 60, your hit chance would be lowered to 2/3 of its normal value. That makes a difference, sure, but not that much thereof.

Also, what? 20 minutes? What build was that and what weapons were you using? I don't think I've ever seen a Baal fight go for more than 5 minutes at most, and usually they are over much, much, much quicker than that. :smallconfused:

Lastly, you don't need to click the left mouse button to attack one target perpetually in D2, you can just keep it pressed. :smalltongue:

And about Sorceress... I played one only for MF. In Diablo 1, I preferred the subtlety and tactics that Warrior and Rogue classes needed rather than the brute force approach of a 1100 mana Sorcerer backed with a 19 level Fireball.I can most definitely understand that. The power difference between Sorcerers and Warriors in D1 was a bit... astounding. :smallbiggrin:

I don't feel as experienced enough on D2 to play HC... but hey, if this means spending more time with WC3/SC group, then I will play even a nude Molten Boulder druid if need be! :smallbiggrin:We're honoured. :smallbiggrin:

Winthur

2009-06-26, 04:20 PM

Also, what? 20 minutes? What build was that and what weapons were you using? I don't think I've ever seen a Baal fight go for more than 5 minutes at most, and usually they are over much, much, much quicker than that.

A rather low dex, but with the Godly AR Angelic Combo, going into Polearms + Whirlwind. And the chance to kill other monsters was usually in the range of 95.
Are you sure you often soloed Baal with an untwinked melee character?

Winterwind

2009-06-26, 10:35 PM

A rather low dex, but with the Godly AR Angelic Combo, going into Polearms + Whirlwind. And the chance to kill other monsters was usually in the range of 95.
Are you sure you often soloed Baal with an untwinked melee character?I'm not sure what you mean by "untwinked". I've soloed Baal with many different characters, with only gear that I've found or just minimal gifts from others, nothing beyond the level of the stuff I'd found myself. On the other hand, all of these characters were effective and robust builds - not necessarily Hammerdin niveau, not even necessarily stuff one would usually see on BattleNet, but effective nonetheless.

And AR is nowhere near as interesting as your damage output. All attack rating in the world isn't going to help you much if you dish out too little damage per attack.

Winthur

2009-06-28, 10:54 AM

Our HC trio of UGNG's (to-be-)singer-barb, Nooblade's martial arts assassin and my avenger paladin has progressed onward, past Andariel and Radament and retrieved the cube. My pally is level 18 now, I think UGNG's and Nooblade's characters are a level or two below.

Hm. Since I'm probably going to play with you, I wonder whether a Summoner Necro would be a good start HC choice. I never played a Summoner Necro, and I never played HC, but I figure that getting away from trouble and letting summons pound is a good idea... (right?)

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-28, 11:22 AM

Hm. Since I'm probably going to play with you, I wonder whether a Summoner Necro would be a good start HC choice. I never played a Summoner Necro, and I never played HC, but I figure that getting away from trouble and letting summons pound is a good idea... (right?)

A summoner is among the least gear dependant builds in the game, which is good for starting up. It also has the ability to do some serious damage. The biggest help you would be however would be for your curses. Amp would greatly help against anything that is Immune to physical. Lifetap would serve to keep Winter alive if hes taking a beating, as well as your minions.
However don't think that your cornered into making a "safe" char for your first foray into Hardcoreland. You will have 3 meatshields hearty charecters in front of you. So if you want to play something a sorc or even a druid summoner you could. Also you will probably die at somepoint, very few people make guardian on their first shot, even with help.

-UGNG

Winterwind

2009-06-28, 12:22 PM

u-gotNOgame

2009-06-28, 01:40 PM

Though a summoning character - be it a Necro or a Druid - would help with taking a lot of damage away from the meatshields, helping them to survive (as long as it's just one - I'd rather not put up with the lag issues caused by multiple ones).

Also, I wouldn't benefit all that much from Lifetap - or does Lifetap transfer non-physical damage too?
What I would definitely benefit from though (as would Nooblade, assuming he goes for Phoenix Strike) would be Lower Resist. Lower Resist stacked onto Conviction is simply delicious. :smallbiggrin:

I thought vengence just stacked elemental damage on top of your physical damamge, not converted it, ala berkserk. If it works how I imagined it you would leach half of the physical damage but not the elemental portion.

I forgot about battle cry, which I plan on maxing for the synergistic effect and because it offers -88% defence and -44% damage. The latter is whats important, because conviction already gives -90% defence at lvl 20. It is however overwritten by every curse.

If your looking for one summon druid would be the way to go and just go for the Bear. A bonemancer might be a good way to go as well because it would round out our damage types.

-UGNG

Winterwind

2009-06-28, 02:11 PM

I thought vengence just stacked elemental damage on top of your physical damamge, not converted it, ala berkserk. If it works how I imagined it you would leach half of the physical damage but not the elemental portion.Vengeance indeed stacks elemental damage on top of the physical damage, the problem is that (especially later on) the physical damage becomes a fairly miniscule part of the total damage, so leech doesn't do all that much anymore. Though every part is welcome, of course. :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-06-28, 10:47 PM

I've found that even Avengers (Vengence + Conviction) also greatly benefit from getting 4 levels of Zeal somehow (most likely through items) in case they need to start cranking out the heals. Although a 'Zealadin' with maxed out Sacrifice and Zeal deals out impressive damage against non-immune foes. The problem, of course, is the 'non-immune foes' part. Starting Nightmare, you start running into PI mobs.

I could always run a Frost Sorceress with Fire as backup element (only going Lightning for teleport and shield). Massive battlefield control and damage output (orb-spamming FTW. With enough Cold Mastery, even kills cold-immunes).

Winthur

2009-06-29, 06:58 AM

I could always run a Frost Sorceress with Fire as backup element (only going Lightning for teleport and shield). Massive battlefield control and damage output (orb-spamming FTW. With enough Cold Mastery, even kills cold-immunes).

How would one go around doing it? Even writing that you have such an idea somewhere else will leave you a big shield with bullseye and everyone saying you're a bloody noob... :smallconfused: So, how would you balance the Fire and Cold damage?

nooblade

2009-06-29, 10:30 AM

Some Sorceress skills do not require many points (especially with gear bonuses) to do effective element damage (I'm thinking something on the order of 20-30 points, for clarification). Frozen Orb or Fire Wall are good picks, if you're familiar with how to use them properly.

Blaze is great if you want to lag-kill your competition, err, "teammates".

Winterwind

2009-06-29, 01:03 PM

With enough Cold Mastery, even kills cold-immunes).No, it doesn't. :smallconfused:
Cold Mastery affects only non-cold immunes. It is not able to remove an immunity.
It will affect a target after the immunity has been removed by a Conviction aura or a Lower Resist curse, but on its own it won't hurt a cold-immune in the least.

As Nooblade said, Frozen Orb and Fire Wall are the two skills that require the least points to be effective. Sorceresses are usually build such that you have one skill without cooldown which you can shoot perpetually and one powerful skill with cooldown that you shoot as often as possible. One effective sorc using Cold as her secondary element would put about 20 points into Frozen Orb and ~10 into Cold Mastery, and put everything else into either Fireball (and synergies) or Chain Lightning (and synergies). With Fire as secondary, replace Orb and Cold Mastery with Fire Wall and Fire Mastery.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-06-29, 02:29 PM

Yea, I was thinking Frozen Orb + Fireball (maybe Hydra, but doesn't seem to have very impressive damage ratios). Fire Wall is a PITA to aim properly (Friendly Fire and all that), and doesn't do much against teleporting opponents.

Now, I know Str is only good enough to wear something worthwhile wearing, so likely under 100. In fact, probably around 60.

Dex... I guess it depends if you are going orb/shield or staff. If orb/shield, then Dex is used to max out your block chance and keep you alive, but with staff... it almost seems not worth it. But there are very few worthwhile orbs around, and no rune words that work on orbs. However, there are lots of fun shield runes out there...

Vitality is of course vital. But you will also need a decent mana pool to be effective.

Energy is how important? When compared with +mana items etc... I recall that Mana Shield is much less efficent than in D1, and probably not worth keeping up at all times to make Vitality a dump stat in favor of Energy?

I thought Cold Mastery was like Vengence/Lower Resist in that it can punch through an immunity. Kinda makes it look like the weakest of the 'mastery' skills...

Winterwind

2009-06-29, 02:47 PM

Yea, I was thinking Frozen Orb + Fireball (maybe Hydra, but doesn't seem to have very impressive damage ratios). Fire Wall is a PITA to aim properly (Friendly Fire and all that), and doesn't do much against teleporting opponents.There is no friendly fire in D2, and if you right click on an enemy, the Fire Wall will appear on that enemy. Aiming for groups is somewhat more difficult though, granted.
Oh, and the damage of Hydra is rather pitiful in a mono-elemental build, in a dual-elemental build it'd be utterly worthless.

Now, I know Str is only good enough to wear something worthwhile wearing, so likely under 100. In fact, probably around 60. The equipment a Sorc wants to wear in the long run typically has requirements of about 90-105. I'd go with 105. There are a few items requiring more than that (notably, a Monarch needs a lot more), but personally I don't think it's worth the investment.

Dex... I guess it depends if you are going orb/shield or staff. If orb/shield, then Dex is used to max out your block chance and keep you alive, but with staff... it almost seems not worth it. But there are very few worthwhile orbs around, and no rune words that work on orbs. However, there are lots of fun shield runes out there...There are also other weapons one might use. A Spirit-runeworded sword comes to mind as fairly cheap variant.
There are two variants regarding Dex - either one tries to go for max block - as blocking is immensely powerful in D2 - or neglects blocking entirely (which doesn't mean an orb/weapon+shield combo isn't a good idea anyway, as getting boni from two slots usually yields better results than a single item taking up both of them) in favour of more vitality. I'd go with about 40-50 Dex in the latter case so one can use all good items one might want, and otherwise enough Dex for max block. Personally, I prefer to forgo blocking, since a sorc can teleport away from melee usually, and the biggest danger comes from concentrated ranged attacks, most of which are magic and would ignore blocking anyway.

Vitality is of course vital. But you will also need a decent mana pool to be effective.Aye. Nonetheless, every single point you can spare should go into Vitality.

Energy is how important? When compared with +mana items etc... I recall that Mana Shield is much less efficent than in D1, and probably not worth keeping up at all times to make Vitality a dump stat in favor of Energy?It is infinitely worse than in D1 - it starts out with an unfavourable ratio of mana lost per damage point absorbed, and doesn't absorb 100% of the damage anyway. Plus, there are mana burn monsters in D2 which can rip a Mana Shield apart with a single strike.

Still, it is a matter of choice again. With some point investment, Mana Shield can be transformed into a highly effective defensive measure - the problem being, it's vulnerable in certain circumstances (Moon Lords come to mind). Is one willing to take the risk, or not?

I'd go with about 50 Energy on a sorc without Mana Shield, and 100-150 on one with.

I thought Cold Mastery was like Vengence/Lower Resist in that it can punch through an immunity. Kinda makes it look like the weakest of the 'mastery' skills...Fire/Lightning mastery can increase your damage threefold or so. Against a foe with, say, 95 Cold Immunity, a reduction of 95% resistance would increase your damage twentyfold - though against an enemy with 0 initial resistance these 95% wouldn't even double your damage.
So, Cold Mastery is effective, in particular against enemies who are almost immune, but not quite. The other masteries have a more linear effect.

Optimystik

2009-06-29, 03:52 PM

Oh, and the damage of Hydra is rather pitiful in a mono-elemental build, in a dual-elemental build it'd be utterly worthless.

I remember when Hydra didn't suck (pre-synergies). I miss it :smallfrown:

Is Fire Wall better than Meteor for a dual-element build? I just can't imagine going through Hell diff with a pure cold sorc, not again.

Winthur

2009-06-29, 03:55 PM

The equipment a Sorc wants to wear in the long run typically has requirements of about 90-105. I'd go with 105. There are a few items requiring more than that (notably, a Monarch needs a lot more), but personally I don't think it's worth the investment.

For 156 strength that also allow you some flexibility (read: pull off some crazy stupid stuff with other heavy items) you get a ton of mana, FCR and other goodies (we're talking about Spirit, of course). I'd say it compensates a lot.

'Zealadin'

They're simply called Zealots. (MY LIFE FOR AIUR! JEEEW HOUSE! ORIGAMI!)

Hm... I might consider also my first build ever that emerged from me being a Winnie the Pooh fanboy back in the days... But druid werebears are rather weak, so I guess I wouldn't provide much help :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2009-06-29, 04:00 PM

Is Fire Wall better than Meteor for a dual-element build? I just can't imagine going through Hell diff with a pure cold sorc, not again.I admit I haven't ever used it myself, but as far as I know Fire Wall requires less points to be effective than Meteor (albeit less potent if one dedicates oneself to Fire).

All dual elemental sorcs I tried so far were either Fireball/Frozen Orb or Chain Lightning/Frozen Orb. Especially the latter was very effective.

For 156 strength that also allow you some flexibility (read: pull off some crazy stupid stuff with other heavy items) you get a ton of mana, FCR and other goodies (we're talking about Spirit, of course). I'd say it compensates a lot.It does. This, too, is a matter of personal preference.

Hm... I might consider also my first build ever that emerged from me being a Winnie the Pooh fanboy back in the days... But druid werebears are rather weak, so I guess I wouldn't provide much help :smalltongue:Actually, thanks to their ability to stun enemies, werebears are very useful for HC. :smallwink:

Optimystik

2009-06-29, 04:45 PM

They're simply called Zealots. (MY LIFE FOR AIUR! JEEEW HOUSE! ORIGAMI!)

Oh god, I can't stop laughing... I love Starcraft :smallbiggrin:

That was one of my favorite parts of Diablo 2, naming all the different builds more flavorfully, like:

Zeal Pally - Zealot
FoHadin/Holy Boltdin - Templar
Fana Pally - Fanatic
Smitedin - Warder
Windy druid - Stormcaller
Shoutbarb - Bard
Summonancer/Lagomancer - Dreadcaller
Bone Necro - Osteomancer
Poison Necro - Corrupter
Golemancer - Shaper
Burizon - Artillerist
Orb Sorc - Shard Mage

Sometimes I would just join a game and start RPing at random people, and they'd have no idea what I was talking about ^^ Did you guys have any others?

All dual elemental sorcs I tried so far were either Fireball/Frozen Orb or Chain Lightning/Frozen Orb. Especially the latter was very effective.

Yes, I remember that. The latter combo was the one I employed, although it grew tiresome hearing everyone call her a "cl*t-sorc" -_-

Winterwind

2009-06-29, 08:42 PM

Oh god, I can't stop laughing... I love Starcraft :smallbiggrin:Well, y'know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101411)... *whistles* :smallredface:

That was one of my favorite parts of Diablo 2, naming all the different builds more flavorfully, like:

Zeal Pally - Zealot
FoHadin/Holy Boltdin - Templar
Fana Pally - Fanatic
Smitedin - Warder
Windy druid - Stormcaller
Shoutbarb - Bard
Summonancer/Lagomancer - Dreadcaller
Bone Necro - Osteomancer
Poison Necro - Corrupter
Golemancer - Shaper
Burizon - Artillerist
Orb Sorc - Shard Mage

Sometimes I would just join a game and start RPing at random people, and they'd have no idea what I was talking about ^^ Did you guys have any others?"Osteomancer" is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Mhh, apart from the generic "Avenger" for the Vengeance/Conviction pally, not really. My roleplaying in D2 was pretty much limited to a little in-character banter between my pally and nooblade's necromancer (it was you, nooblade, right?).

Yes, I remember that. The latter combo was the one I employed, although it grew tiresome hearing everyone call her a "cl*t-sorc" -_-My... >_<
Haven't heard that yet, though admittedly I've only rarely played outside of circles of people I knew beforehand (and now that I'm playing hardcore this is most unlikely to change).

nooblade

2009-06-29, 08:55 PM

I thought there was a Barbarian involved somewhere. Something about horrible muscle size and attack speed puns. Oh right! I was the Necromancer! Reveling in the mutilation of our slain enemies' corpses and in my ability to animate a certain dead member.

I can't remember what I was making now, probably a Poisonmancer.

Winthur

2009-06-30, 07:40 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-07-01, 02:12 PM

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6193/3dot.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/3dot.jpg/)
A little offtopic, but today me and my friend killed Diablo on Hell difficulty, (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2919/deadiablo.jpg) thus earning our 3 dots!

This is my first 3dot with a character who used (before the run I took off my Diamond Amulet of the Tiger that I got from someone in favor of Amulet of Zodiac) untwinked items during the run (On Nightmare and Normal dotting, I used the amulet, though.). Also, it's my first 3dot I did with unduped items. Yeah, I'm not very proud of my past. (Although I didn't use blatant "hacks" [as in Dreamflange rings and Lightforges] back in the days...) Last but not least, it's my first 3dot with the Rogue and I'm in love with this class. It's unbelievably fun. :smallsmile:

I actually think that's funny! But that's just me. :smallwink:

Yea, he was a real PITA in D1, wasn't he?

Funny... in D1, he used a helpless child to become manifest, and became the biggest badass of the game. In D2, he used the very adventurer who beat that incarnation, but was actually weaker...

When D2 first came out, there were some persistent rumors that it would scan your hard drive for any D1 save game files who beat Diablo and use THOSE stats to generate the Diablo in D2. I was rather disappointed to hear that this was not the case.

Then again, I don't want to see what Diablo from D2 would have done with an AAA and D1 Mana Shield...

Winterwind

2009-07-01, 02:20 PM

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 02:36 PM

Well, I'd argue Diablo is still the most dangerous opponent in D2.

Baal may be more durable, but nowhere near as dangerous offensively. The Red Lightning of Doom, on the other hand, is quite probably the most deadly attack in the entire game.

Hell Duriel is arguably a lot more dangerous, because of the cramped quarters, immunity to slow, and brief lag on entering his chamber (which naturally, doesn't affect him :smallsigh:)

You're completely right that Big D's Lightning Inferno is definitely the game's most damaging attack though. I wonder how he managed to come back for D3? He has to be in it, the game is named after him!

Winterwind

2009-07-01, 02:44 PM

Hell Duriel is arguably a lot more dangerous, because of the cramped quarters, immunity to slow, and brief lag on entering his chamber (which naturally, doesn't affect him :smallsigh:) To low level casters, maybe. High level casters or any melee characters beat him up just fine.

You're completely right that Big D's Lightning Inferno is definitely the game's most damaging attack though. I wonder how he managed to come back for D3? He has to be in it, the game is named after him!He also appeared in one of the cinematic sequences Blizzard has shown so far.

My guess would be that unlike Tyrael, the Prime Evils knew very precisely what the destruction of the Worldstone would cause.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 03:15 PM

To low level casters, maybe. High level casters or any melee characters beat him up just fine.

High level casters can easily handle D as well (as long as they don't run out of mana.) I can't think of a single build that would get trapped in his bone shield, and once they get Enigma and some fire resistance for the nova then the big battlefield makes him a joke.

You're right though, melee were in less danger from Duriel (his Unholy Freeze made maneuvering a pain though.)

He also appeared in one of the cinematic sequences Blizzard has shown so far.

My guess would be that unlike Tyrael, the Prime Evils knew very precisely what the destruction of the Worldstone would cause.

Interesting. Could Tyrael be a villain this time? I've always wanted to beat his pompous ass, especially for not giving me more skill points for beating Izual. (That bastard can be hard to find!)

Winterwind

2009-07-01, 03:26 PM

Interesting. Could Tyrael be a villain this time? I've always wanted to beat his pompous ass, especially for not giving me more skill points for beating Izual. (That bastard can be hard to find!)Tyrael? Doubtful, considering he is the only supernatural power that has only the well-being of mankind at heart. Forces of the High Heavens? Quite possible. In fact, I seem to remember having heard something to this effect regarding D3 a while ago.

Winthur

2009-07-01, 03:32 PM

Nah, Diablo in D1 is a rather disappointing adversary and I see that it's far more troubling to get through his lackeys (Soul Burners and Advocates... Gosh.) than to kill him. Especially since I always simply lure him to the labyrinth on the other side of the level, engage his minions (what is a Black Knight doing there anyway? :smallconfused: ) and then go back and whip him. Under heavy stunlock, he's a nuisance. Diablo in D2 is way more dangerous.

Then again, it's making me depressed that I beat the game and everyone is more concerned over some petty things. :smalltongue:

(Trivia: I bought a Massive Bow of Precision at Griswold's back when I started Nightmare difficulty. I planned to find a better bow soon, but never one came even on Hell difficulty, and MBoP became my most trusted friend... maybe aside from a Royal Circlet and Amulet of Zodiac that I found myself.)

Baal, on the other hand, is a long and boring fight. He has a ton of hitpoints but no meaningful attack. His attacks only prolong the fight by knockbacking and chilling you a little. I don't like Act V for many reasons...

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 04:23 PM

Tyrael? Doubtful, considering he is the only supernatural power that has only the well-being of mankind at heart. Forces of the High Heavens? Quite possible. In fact, I seem to remember having heard something to this effect regarding D3 a while ago.

That's the problem - he has earth's well-being at heart so much that he can lose sight of the big picture. Think Raiden from Mortal Kombat; they're exactly the same. And we don't know what effect shattering the World Stone had, least of all on him.

hamishspence

2009-07-01, 04:28 PM

And he didn't always feel that way- going by the Sin War trilogy he was a late convert to "humans should be spared"

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-07-02, 12:55 AM

My guess would be that unlike Tyrael, the Prime Evils knew very precisely what the destruction of the Worldstone would cause.

Yanno.. that would be just like them... the Joker mentality. Make Batman Tyrael work his arse off only to find that he'd been fooled once again.

Winterwind

2009-07-02, 07:41 AM

Yanno.. that would be just like them... the Joker mentality. Make Batman Tyrael work his arse off only to find that he'd been fooled once again.Interestingly, this would make everything that ever happened in D2 part of the Prime Evils' plan. Just like D2's plot made everything that happened in D1 part of the Prime Evils' plan. Nice consistency there. :smallbiggrin:
Also, it would fit well with Blizzard's tendency to always have the evil come out on top in the long run. At least in both StarCraft 1 and WarCraft 3, while the "good" side was victorious in the main game, the respective expansions brought the ultimate victory of the "evil" side.

Optimystik

2009-07-02, 11:26 AM

Interestingly, this would make everything that ever happened in D2 part of the Prime Evils' plan. Just like D2's plot made everything that happened in D1 part of the Prime Evils' plan. Nice consistency there. :smallbiggrin:
Also, it would fit well with Blizzard's tendency to always have the evil come out on top in the long run. At least in both StarCraft 1 and WarCraft 3, while the "good" side was victorious in the main game, the respective expansions brought the ultimate victory of the "evil" side.

Evil winning is how you lead into the MMO. There has to be something for the players to fight, remember?

And he didn't always feel that way- going by the Sin War trilogy he was a late convert to "humans should be spared"

Have you read EVERY fantasy novel ever printed? :smalleek:

What's it like managing that library of yours?

Winterwind

2009-07-02, 11:36 AM

Evil winning is how you lead into the MMO. There has to be something for the players to fight, remember?Oh, I am aware of that. It's also how they set up the grounds for a sequel. Still funny though. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence

2009-07-02, 12:16 PM

Evil winning is how you lead into the MMO. There has to be something for the players to fight, remember?

Have you read EVERY fantasy novel ever printed? :smalleek:

What's it like managing that library of yours?

I read them at the library, or in the bookshop, or buy them. Though as something of a speed-reader I have a fairly wide range of books read.

Demus

2009-08-06, 08:54 PM

I was thinking about starting up a new Zealadin since I have a new setup I want to mess around with. If anybody wants to play with me.

I am available most of the time, though I am still very, very inexperienced in playing with groups so you will have to forgive me for my stuff ups.

I am on the US East server, and my name is TheDemus.

Winterwind

2009-08-07, 07:54 AM

u-gotNOgame and me are still playing (if somewhat infrequently), and we are generally happy about any company; however, we play Hardcore only.
I think there are a few people in this thread who also still play in a more accessible mode though.

Demus

2009-08-07, 01:34 PM

I haven't got the guts to try hardcore. I get my ass kicked enough in Hell & Nightmare.

Myrmex

2009-08-30, 12:18 AM

I just found a really solid solo build- the summoner.

As a necromancer, you max summon skeleton, skeleton mastery, and corpse explosion. Then put a bunch of points in amp damage. Then turn everything into a fine blood mist as your unliving wall of bone shields your frail body.

All other points are pretty much optional, though I recommend skipping fire golem (iron golem, in my experience, is superior), and a maxed amp damage is pretty spectacular. You get a whole screen worth of affected creatures. It even works through walls!

The effectiveness of your skeletons & corpse explosion rapidly drops off with more players, but at least the skeletons make nice blockers.

The best part, imo, though, is the lack of gear dependency. You can pretty much collect +summoning skills at the exclusion of all other mods, since you won't be getting targets by much of anything very frequently. The way summon skeleton works, though, is that additional points in it increases the damage exponentially, so after you hit the hard cap, squeezing every additional point into it out of your gear pays high dividends.

Celesyne

2009-08-30, 02:44 AM

I never did try playing D2 online, and think now may be the time to try. I dont have the expansion to the game, much as that irks me, I cant find it at any of my local stores or have any friends that still have the disc lying around.

So, would someone with only the base game available to them be able to play with you folks? And would you be willing to suffer through an absolute relearning newb who never got into the min-maxing portion of the game?

Winterwind

2009-08-30, 01:21 PM

I just found a really solid solo build- the summoner.

As a necromancer, you max summon skeleton, skeleton mastery, and corpse explosion. Then put a bunch of points in amp damage. Then turn everything into a fine blood mist as your unliving wall of bone shields your frail body.Aye, that's pretty much the standard necro, against which all other necros must be measured. It's one of the best builds in... the entire game, probably. Quite effective even in HC.

So, would someone with only the base game available to them be able to play with you folks? And would you be willing to suffer through an absolute relearning newb who never got into the min-maxing portion of the game?We'd have no problem with the latter part at all, but sadly, the answer to the first part is 'no'. Players with the expansion and players without the expansion play in seperate games and cannot intermingle. :smallfrown:
Lord of Destruction shouldn't be that difficult to find though. I'm pretty sure it's selled in a bundle with a couple of other Blizzard games these days, the entire bundle for less money than it originally cost alone.

Dallas-Dakota

2009-08-30, 02:54 PM

I'l play tonight, in HC, perhaps with you guys if you don't mind noob me.*

*Noob as in that I don't actually really use that much strategies such as Dim or such. I vaguely remember Ugot or maybe somebody else getting upset about that the last time I played. Otherwise I'l just be playing alone in HC. >.>

Celesyne

2009-08-31, 01:24 AM

Ok, so synergies are new to me, i quit playing before they came around. I figured I'd mess around on the single player until I can find a LOD copy. I rhought that I would play a necro and specialize in bone/poison spells and golem summoning. Don't know if thats a particularly good build, but it looke dmore fun than the normal skelly spam necro's i remembered. any advice or build strategys i should worry about? Still not sure which bone spell I'm going to focus on.

Myrmex

2009-08-31, 01:30 AM

Winterwind

2009-08-31, 07:19 AM

Bone is bad except for pvp, due to the lack of a very good AoE vs. mobs. Poison dagger + poison explosion + poison nova + lower resist. You have 20 pts left over at the end of the build....in other words, you'll have about none left - you cannot realistically assume to reach level 99. 80-85 is a more realistic assumption for most players and most characters, and that too only if you keep playing.

Other than that, agreed. Bone is okay for helping a summoner finish off monsters and assist his army a bit, but when playing without/with but a few summons, I'd expect a Venomancer to fare better.

Optimystik

2009-08-31, 09:53 AM

Bone is bad except for pvp, due to the lack of a very good AoE vs. mobs. Poison dagger + poison explosion + poison nova + lower resist. You have 20 pts left over at the end of the build.

I must disagree. Bone Spear is extremely good at taking down groups of mobs, and wall/prison are able to create bottlenecks on the fly to maximize its effectiveness. It may not be as autopilot as a hammerdin, but bone is an extremely viable PvE build. In fact, proper use of walls and prisons can negate the need for minions entirely once you have enough mana regeneration.

Secondly, Bone Armor (against the right mobs) effectively allows a necromancer to turn mana into health, something very few other classes are capable of. There are also fewer magic-immune monsters in the game than poison-immunes, and those that are magic immune can still be bone-prisoned with a properly equipped act 2 jab merc or golem and taken down piecemeal. Or hell, you can just lock them up and run around them to the stairs.

Poison is powerful, but even with maximized synergies it still takes time to down mobs due to the DoT nature of the element. The venomancer will take significant hits if surrounded even as his foes perish, and without synergies his bone armor won't survive a single attack in Hell. You also have to get fairly close to bosses to nova them, and as we all know being on the same screen with Diablo is just asking to eat a lightning inferno.

Finally, Hell Andariel is poison immune, but no bosses are magic immune. (I think Nightmare Andariel is also immune, but may just be highly resistant... it;s been awhile.)

Celesyne

2009-08-31, 10:29 AM

Ok, so Golems are a go, which is the better to use? ans with bone, where do i need to be throwing points, teeth, bone armor? This is my first actual necro, as I originally beat the game at version 1.0 with the 20hit-Zealadin and loved every minute of it.

On a side note, I havent played an Amazon either, are Bowazons useful in battlenet?

Dallas-Dakota

2009-08-31, 10:45 AM

Stone>Iron>Blood.

Scrap that, don't even think about using blood golems. They share your life, thus if it gets hit, you get hit. Though for half damage. But it's supposed to be your tank. That means you should get less damage!
Iron Gollem and Stone Gollem are way better.
The Iron gollem depends on how much good items you find(I.E. Magic Find)

Personally I prefer Stone Golem since it slows enemies as well as being a instantly-resummonable tank.(My stone gollem has kept Diablo busy enough to easily kill him for a fair amount of times, on my own)

For bone, I'm not as experienced, I'd say 20 in Bone Spear and synergies(if it has any) since Bone Spear does Magic Damage to which few monsters are immune and it has Pierce, which makes it a great weapon for mobs.(Well better then most other bone stuff >.>)

Teeth? Depends on what your playing style is. But overal, in the long term, I've found that in late-game in Hell the damage just isn't high enough.

Bone Armor? At level 20 it absorbs 210 damage, that is per barrier I assume, of which there are three. (If you have the time/mana, just resummon if you don't have all 3 barriers) How much do you get hit? Do you find it worth it? I personally would rather stick to the back with my necro.
So once again, it depends on playing style.

Bowazons? I wouldn't recommend them.

The most classic and damage dealing(And thus also the most used one) amazon build is the Lightning Javazon with sometimes a touch of poison.
Only go for the late(r/st) skills of the lightning/poison branch.
Jab and belows skills are pretty bad.
The main recommendations on this build is, is that it features both melee and ranged, two types of damages, physical and lightning(And sometimes a third, poison) and that it's not equip-reliant.

Optimystik

2009-08-31, 11:46 AM

For a bone necro, clay is the best golem by far. It has a metric TON of hitpoints now; Cookiemonster's claim of a clay golem successfully tanking Diablo is not an exaggeration. It has a slow effect which makes your job of prisoning and spearing much easier, and best of all its slow effect is not typed (i.e. cold or curse) so it works on everyone. Best of all, it STACKS with Decrepify allowing you to run rings around even the quickest monsters and perforate them with spears.

Iron is just not as durable, especially given its expense. To make one that lasts a decent amount of time, you have to burn a fairly good item in its creation... and all it takes is one lag spike, a vindictive boss/super-unique or a hostile asshat to nullify your investment. Iron does more damage, but you won't care about that - as a bone necro, your damage will easily outstrip that of your golem (to the tune of 4000+ damage per spear with proper gear and synergies.)

In her analysis of Bone Armor, Cookie neglected the fact that this spell synergizes with skills you will be pumping anyway (wall/prison) to get upwards of 800 absorption. That's 800 temporary HP that you can continually reapply for a pittance of mana, easily improvable to 1k+ with skill gear and charms that, again, you will already be seeking out. Besides, it just looks cool to run around with bones orbiting you all the time.

Bowazons are not bad per se... but they did not benefit as much from synergies as the other classes did. The multi-shotting/leeching monster from 1.09 is long gone, what with so many physical immunes in Hell difficulty and multishot/strafe's gargantuan manacosts. Multishot also has reduced damage (75% of normal), while Strafe locks your character until every arrow is fired, a strategy best referred to as suicide. The elemental arrows DO synergize, and can deal hefty damage, but at that point you're playing a sorceress with a lot less mana who needs ammunition and can't teleport by herself. So yeah.

Dallas-Dakota

2009-08-31, 02:02 PM

On the necro:

Opty was right in that those synergize, I'd forgotten that. It's been a fair while since I've plaid necro.

Gotta second him on the Gollem part.
Your gollem is ment as a tank. Sure the extra damage is nice, but it won't actually be that much or matter that much in comparation to your damage. Or your skellie damage for that matter, if you go that way.

Once again, the instant resummonability is mentioned, you'l still get the same good old quality with the stone gollem, while it varies with Iron Gollem.

Imagine if you hit a low spot on good magical items and you'd pumped Iron Gollem? You'd suddenly be of way worse!
__
On the zon:

Though you can get Enigma, but then again, if you've already slurped your mana, it's probably a bad idea.

Since 1 teleport from enigma from Non-sorc(Wait, there are sorcs wearing this armor? o.0) costs 24 mana(-1 for every +all skill you have) so to get to a safe distance it would take pretty much too much mana. Especially since you'l need a good bit of dex to even equip your bow, always pump in Vit otherwise you'l just plain die.

That leaves little and just not enough (by my consideration) to be pumping into Mana to be doing expensive bowshooting and then teleport out with Enigma.

Not to mention that you really won't need the Faster Cast rate which makes Enigma better for a variety of other builds.

Narudude360

2009-08-31, 03:09 PM

I am downloading this game via Battle.net as we er... post. So I can get back in. Thank you Blizz, for making a system where I can download my games that I lost the disc to five years ago!

Narudude360

2009-08-31, 03:33 PM

Are you guys still playing? I want to start again on B net and I have been looking for a group :smallsmile:

I am beggining again. If you would like to start over with me, I'm doing so as well. I will update this post with more info soon.

Myrmex

2009-09-01, 01:20 AM

...in other words, you'll have about none left - you cannot realistically assume to reach level 99. 80-85 is a more realistic assumption for most players and most characters, and that too only if you keep playing.

There are 110 skill points, 98 of which are from levels. Reaching the mid 80s is extremely easy, at least online. I don't play single player for the same reason I don't drink alone. :smallwink:

Other than that, agreed. Bone is okay for helping a summoner finish off monsters and assist his army a bit, but when playing without/with but a few summons, I'd expect a Venomancer to fare better.

Bone skills (other than corpse explosion) are an utter waste if you invest primarily in summons. Since synergies were introduced, instead of taking 30 ranks in 2 skills to kill things in hell (like orb & cold mastery), it now takes anywhere between 40 and 80 hard points in skills to kill anything. Spreading over multiple synergy trees is ultimately a waste of points, since two ineffective skills combined do not make an effective skill.

Corpse explosion coupled with amplify damage, though, scales at all difficulty levels. Having a 20,000 damage attack is pretty effective. Amplify damage means monsters are always going to get hurt by it, and you can strip physical immunities.

I must disagree. Bone Spear is extremely good at taking down groups of mobs, and wall/prison are able to create bottlenecks on the fly to maximize its effectiveness. It may not be as autopilot as a hammerdin, but bone is an extremely viable PvE build. In fact, proper use of walls and prisons can negate the need for minions entirely once you have enough mana regeneration.

Secondly, Bone Armor (against the right mobs) effectively allows a necromancer to turn mana into health, something very few other classes are capable of. There are also fewer magic-immune monsters in the game than poison-immunes, and those that are magic immune can still be bone-prisoned with a properly equipped act 2 jab merc or golem and taken down piecemeal. Or hell, you can just lock them up and run around them to the stairs.

Poison is powerful, but even with maximized synergies it still takes time to down mobs due to the DoT nature of the element. The venomancer will take significant hits if surrounded even as his foes perish, and without synergies his bone armor won't survive a single attack in Hell. You also have to get fairly close to bosses to nova them, and as we all know being on the same screen with Diablo is just asking to eat a lightning inferno.

Finally, Hell Andariel is poison immune, but no bosses are magic immune. (I think Nightmare Andariel is also immune, but may just be highly resistant... it;s been awhile.)

Compare bone spear to ice orb, blizz, lightning javalins, hammers, hurricane, traps, or the sorc lightning tree. It just doesn't have the same level of AoE those spells do. Bone prison is an awesome spell, no doubt. That and bone armor are probably my favorite aspect of going bone, since you get such good utility skills. But for a game about mindless killing, where you have to spend hours mindlessly killing in order to be better at mindlessly killing stuff, anything that makes mindless killing more difficult is pretty lame, imo.

As for poison, lower resist will break most poison immune monsters. Andariel is only immune when you have to fight her as an uber, not as a boss. None of the act bosses have immunities, though baals minions do.

I prefer iron golem over clay, because I find a ton of magic junk that makes terrific golems. Most gear that drops you can't use as a necro, and your merc can't use it because it's not a helm, armor, or spear. So you turn it into an iron golem. A good exceptional unique item makes an iron golem that is almost on par with your merc. And it persists between games. Sure, you'll lose it eventually, but when you're mfing, you'll find plenty more crap you can't use.

Lastly, curses are way under used by necros. Spamming decrepify cripples bosses, as it halves their attack speed, damage, move speed, and increases damage they take by 50%. It's integral to keeping your summons up when running super uniques that hit hard and there are no corpses around (like end bosses). Terror is a great spell to get monsters off of you. Amp damage makes your minions and corpse explosion 100% and 50% more damaging, respectively. Lower resist means the sorc in the party can kill it faster, or your poison will work. Confusion can turn big, hard hitting mobs of monsters into push-overs for your skeletons to whittle down, before you amp damage them and explode their comrade's corpses all over them.

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 10:14 AM

Compare bone spear to ice orb, blizz, lightning javalins, hammers, hurricane, traps, or the sorc lightning tree. It just doesn't have the same level of AoE those spells do. Bone prison is an awesome spell, no doubt. That and bone armor are probably my favorite aspect of going bone, since you get such good utility skills. But for a game about mindless killing, where you have to spend hours mindlessly killing in order to be better at mindlessly killing stuff, anything that makes mindless killing more difficult is pretty lame, imo.

It seems that that is the difference between us; I actually enjoy the strategy aspect to my gameplay, and funneling enemy monsters through corridors of nearly indestructible bone walls so that I can skewer them en masse is my cup of tea. Besides, Osteomancers deserve the drawback of lacking AoE - they can put out comparable damage to a Lit sorc (on average, that is), but it's nigh unresistable, whereas there are a metric ton of ways to resist and even absorb lightning in D2.

As for poison, lower resist will break most poison immune monsters. Andariel is only immune when you have to fight her as an uber, not as a boss. None of the act bosses have immunities, though baals minions do.

Fair enough, but consider this - when you break an immunity with LR, the monster in question still has amazingly high resistance. Venomancers have to deal with this problem; Osteomancers don't. A Venomancer also has much more difficulty keeping enemies away from him without the ability to create walls and temporary HP on the fly. Bone spells can also kill enemies several screens away with click-lock, but P-Nova, for all its wide range, still requires you to be on the same screen with the enemy.

I'm not saying Venomancers are bad, but they are definitely in a lower tier.

I prefer iron golem over clay, because I find a ton of magic junk that makes terrific golems. Most gear that drops you can't use as a necro, and your merc can't use it because it's not a helm, armor, or spear. So you turn it into an iron golem. A good exceptional unique item makes an iron golem that is almost on par with your merc. And it persists between games. Sure, you'll lose it eventually, but when you're mfing, you'll find plenty more crap you can't use.

I'd rather trade those exceptional uniques for mid runes and skulls/gems. I can then trade up for higher runes, or use them in cube recipes (e.g. for rejuvenation potions, to reroll rares, or add sockets to elites.) The golem does nothing for me that a clay golem can't. Its thorns aura is a joke compared to clay's slowing (which, as I pointed out earlier, stacks with decrepify.)

Lastly, curses are way under used by necros. Spamming decrepify cripples bosses, as it halves their attack speed, damage, move speed, and increases damage they take by 50%. It's integral to keeping your summons up when running super uniques that hit hard and there are no corpses around (like end bosses). Terror is a great spell to get monsters off of you. Amp damage makes your minions and corpse explosion 100% and 50% more damaging, respectively. Lower resist means the sorc in the party can kill it faster, or your poison will work. Confusion can turn big, hard hitting mobs of monsters into push-overs for your skeletons to whittle down, before you amp damage them and explode their comrade's corpses all over them.

I know Decrepify is great, but spamming it is a great way to drain your mana. With a clay golem out you can be more careful about casting it, and don't get caught with your pants down between applications. Most importantly, many of the curses overwrite each other. So if you are terroring mobs away from you as a Venomancer, you aren't lowering their resistances and your damage output suffers. Again, this is not a problem for the Osteomancer, who doesn't care what curse is on the enemy as long as it keeps them at bay. (Decrep, Confusion, Terror, even Attract can be useful to him.)

Early game, Venomancers are superior thanks to poison dagger, which does massive amounts of damage before enemies start remembering he's a squishy caster. Past level 18, the Osteomancer begins to shine, especially if he gets his hands on a Gravenspine and a nice head. Once he gets White...

Celesyne

2009-09-01, 11:49 AM

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 12:11 PM

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 12:21 PM

ok, trading in the Necro for my trusty old paladin, necro just isnt my cup of tea. Way to squishy for me, which is odd seeing as I've beat it as a Sorc, nevertheless. Could any of you wonderful folks point me towards some paladin builds? Sacrafice looks absolutely delicious what with the lowered hit count on Zeal, so I may focus on that and the shield skill and live forever, but I wanted to have a peak at some other builds first.The single most powerful paladin build - not to mention, one of the most powerful builds in the game - is the aforementioned hammerdin. Blessed Hammer, Concentration, and whatever synergies you can find. The hammers deal incredible amounts of damage, obliterating entire hordes of monsters at ease.

Another popular build would be the Shock Zealot - Zeal (which may have a lowered attack count, but boosts damage to make up for it now at higher levels) with Holy Shock, allowing you to apply the additional damage from Holy Shock that much more often. Also, your damage is both physical and lightning, which gives you something against most opponents.

The Fanatical Zealot (with Fanatism instead of Holy Shock) attacks even faster and has tremendous life and mana leech capabilities - the problem is that unlike the Shock Zealot, you have nothing against Physical Immunes.

My most favourite build of all of D2 would be the Avenger - Vengeance and Conviction, giving you a powerful single-target attack that can hurt any monster in the game. Also, one of the party-friendliest builds there are, too.

Martyrs with Sacrifice work, I guess, but you will have trouble against Physical Immunes, and won't have the crowd control abilities of the Zealot (not to speak of the Hammerdin, but then, nothing compares to the power of a Hammerdin).

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 12:33 PM

A Smiter is an excellent alternative as well, allowing a paladin nearly impenetrable defense and strong damage. The build is also very light on skill points, leaving you plenty to be a back up Vindicator for Physical Immunes. It's light on crowd control but your defensive skills will let you take hits while you pick monsters off piecemeal.

Celesyne

2009-09-01, 12:36 PM

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 12:50 PM

Ok, that avenger build your talking about looks right up my alley, so, could you point me towards a site with the build all mapped out per level? Also, does no one really mess with the shield skills or defensive stats, I kinda figured that would be the pallys specialty seeing as he's the only one with any kind of tanky stuff.

You're not really supposed to be tanking in Diablo. The best defense is a good offense, that sort of thing. When you and a javazon both enter the cow level, neither of you will die, but she will have killed three times as many bad guys as you in the same amount of time.

Smiters/Defiants are good because they stun the enemy and have supremely high physical defense; howerver, the most dangerous attacks the bosses possess are typically not physical (excepting maybe Duriel.) Also, in PvP you're much more likely to have to deal with elemental damage than physical except from barbarians and bowzons.

If it's a conviction paladin you want, don't waste time maxing the aura yourself. Just get the Infinity runeword.

The only build that maxes conviction is the Auradin, a very expensive and specialized (but very effective) build that combines conviction with runewords like Dream and Dragon that layer other auras like holy fire and shock on top of it.

Gamefaqs has great D2 builds, updated through 1.11.

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 01:22 PM

Ok, that avenger build your talking about looks right up my alley, so, could you point me towards a site with the build all mapped out per level? Also, does no one really mess with the shield skills or defensive stats, I kinda figured that would be the pallys specialty seeing as he's the only one with any kind of tanky stuff.Holy Shield is something you should definitely pick up (don't have to invest many points though, +skills items should make it strong enough either way), no matter your build. As for the other shield skills, well, that would be the Smiter build Optimystik mentioned (or the Charger, which is a PvP build).

The Amazon Basin (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/d2_guides.php) is also a fairly good site to look for guides.

Also, feel free to ask here, we have quite a few fairly knowledgeable people around. :smallwink:

If it's a conviction paladin you want, don't waste time maxing the aura yourself. Just get the Infinity runeword....yeah, because a player who is just starting and will probably be playing mostly casually (rather than extensive baal-running and MF-running) is very likely to assemble four high runes or stuff that can be traded for such. :smallconfused:

I'll give the opposite advice and suggest you do max Conviction. Your chance of getting that runeword without extensive cheating being involved at some step (either on your part or the people who you'd be getting it from) is that of a snowball in hell.

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 01:36 PM

...yeah, because a player who is just starting and will probably be playing mostly casually (rather than extensive baal-running and MF-running) is very likely to assemble four high runes or stuff that can be traded for such. :smallconfused:

I'll give the opposite advice and suggest you do max Conviction. Your chance of getting that runeword without extensive cheating being involved at some step (either on your part or the people who you'd be getting it from) is that of a snowball in hell.

So he should sink hours into a character that can be made utterly redundant with a handful of runes? Respeccing won't be available until 1.13, and god knows when that will be released.

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 01:42 PM

So he should sink hours into a character that can be made utterly redundant with a handful of runes? Respeccing won't be available until 1.13, and god knows when that will be released.What's the point in basing a build on the assumption of having some items, when one is not going to ever actually have such items (at least, not in a legit way)?

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 02:07 PM

What's the point in basing a build on the assumption of having some items, when one is not going to ever actually have such items (at least, not in a legit way)?

Trading isn't legitimate? :smallconfused:

It's easy. just collect gems and skulls. Even a window of chipped gems can get you decent runes thanks to the cube recipes. Trade any uniques/sets you find for more gems, and trade good rares for runes directly.

The best part is, he's levelling a character that won't be made redundant while doing so.

Celesyne

2009-09-01, 02:19 PM

Right now, until i get ahold of an LoD copy, I'm base game, and playing single player, but the paladin is probably what I will take into Multiplay after i get the x-pack. PvP isn't my thing since i find it more frustrating than anything.

I will most likely just run rampant with whatever you GiTP guys are doing, and the Avenger build sounds fun, but the only guide i could find for it (havent looked at that site yet winter) said it required 80 points and a metric-CRAPTON of high-level gear to pull off.

Plus, does that site have the cube recipes and rune combos? i never did figure that damned thing out.

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 02:22 PM

Trading isn't legitimate? :smallconfused:I guess it depends on your personal stance to items about which you can be pretty much sure that they were not found in a legit way. Personally, I would not touch them with a polearm.

It's easy. just collect gems and skulls. Even a window of chipped gems can get you decent runes thanks to the cube recipes. Trade any uniques/sets you find for more gems, and trade good rares for runes directly.We are talking about two Ber runes here. Now, I admittedly always preferred to use self-found equipment myself, but even so the last time I checked, runes that high required a lot of other stuff to be traded for.

The best part is, he's levelling a character that won't be made redundant while doing so.Redundant? Infinity's Conviction aura is level 12. An Avenger with a real Conviction will have a much stronger aura (by 8 levels, to be precise). And Conviction is not one of those diminuishing returns skills.
Granted, a different aura would be somewhat stronger, but I would hardly call that redundant.

EDIT:

I will most likely just run rampant with whatever you GiTP guys are doing, and the Avenger build sounds fun, but the only guide i could find for it (havent looked at that site yet winter) said it required 80 points and a metric-CRAPTON of high-level gear to pull off.80 points isn't that much. Actually, it indicates whoever wrote the guide may have been one of the few reasonable people, rather than one of those who for incomprehensible reasons assume you to reach level 99, so maybe the equipment suggestions are not that out of whack either.

Even so, unless a guide assumes you get an entire skill from items only, it will work with lesser equipment, too - just not as effectively as with the high level gear, but the standards these guides are running under are usually unreasonably high, too.

Plus, does that site have the cube recipes and rune combos? i never did figure that damned thing out.Blizzard has an extensive explanation of that thing up on the Arreat Summit (http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/cube.shtml).

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 02:48 PM

I will most likely just run rampant with whatever you GiTP guys are doing, and the Avenger build sounds fun, but the only guide i could find for it (havent looked at that site yet winter) said it required 80 points and a metric-CRAPTON of high-level gear to pull off.

Winter's build doesn't need a lot of gear to be successful, but without proper equipment you can expect to need a lot of potions. Avengers are VERY mana inefficient, because they have to pump a skill that gets more expensive with every point invested, and can only attack one monster at a time. Unlike a Smiter, there is no defensive synergy in any of their abilities either. Meditation and Redemption can help refill your mana, but your damage output will be horrible while switched, so you'll usually only be able to do that outside combat.

Now if you're chumming around with a sorceress or trapsin, things are quite different. Or you can grab an Act 3 fireball/glacial spike merc to help with crowds; with your Conviction they actually don't suck as much.

If you want the whole single-target elemental death thing, FoH is much more fun in my book.

I guess it depends on your personal stance to items about which you can be pretty much sure that they were not found in a legit way. Personally, I would not touch them with a polearm.

You're talking about a 6 year old game here. Plenty of legit runes in circulation.

You don't have to trade for socketable items, just remove your MF gear and grab/socket some yourself. In fact, trading the plain items can net you some hefty runes as well.

We are talking about two Ber runes here. Now, I admittedly always preferred to use self-found equipment myself, but even so the last time I checked, runes that high required a lot of other stuff to be traded for.

Winter, I've seen you in the Magic thread. You're telling me you don't know how to trade up?

Hell Countess drops pretty high ones (I've even seen Ist and Gul.) Ber is not out of reach.

Redundant? Infinity's Conviction aura is level 12. An Avenger with a real Conviction will have a much stronger aura (by 8 levels, to be precise). And Conviction is not one of those diminuishing returns skills.
Granted, a different aura would be somewhat stronger, but I would hardly call that redundant.

What? Conviction caps at 25 (-150% res.) So he would only need +13 to skills, which he'll probably be getting anyway. Anything more than that is a complete waste. The only reason Auradin maxes conviction is because Dream, Dragon et al don't add +skills, so they need the extra boost to reliably hit the cap.

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 03:21 PM

Winter's build doesn't need a lot of gear to be successful, but without proper equipment you can expect to need a lot of potions. Avengers are VERY mana inefficient, because they have to pump a skill that gets more expensive with every point invested, and can only attack one monster at a time. Unlike a Smiter, there is no defensive synergy in any of their abilities either. Meditation and Redemption can help refill your mana, but your damage output will be horrible while switched, so you'll usually only be able to do that outside combat.

Now if you're chumming around with a sorceress or trapsin, things are quite different. Or you can grab an Act 3 fireball/glacial spike merc to help with crowds; with your Conviction they actually don't suck as much.On the other hand, unless you are travelling with a Necro, all you have to do is to turn on Redemption for one second after the battle, and your mana is completely refilled again.

If you want the whole single-target elemental death thing, FoH is much more fun in my book.It is... unusual, but its damage output is not particularly high. Plus, at that point, one might pretty much just as well play a slightly more defensively built sorc, and would still get a higher kill rate.

You're talking about a 6 year old game here. Plenty of legit runes in circulation....wait, you're talking about Non-Ladder?
Nevermind, then, I know precisely nothing about the Non-Ladder scene. Might as well be items are available as cheaply as you say there. Sorry, I've never played Non-Ladder, so I tend to forget it exists.

You don't have to trade for socketable items, just remove your MF gear and grab/socket some yourself. In fact, trading the plain items can net you some hefty runes as well. I'm not talking about the socketable items - finding those should be the least problem - but finding anything worth two Ber-runes might be difficult. Not impossible, by no means (though at least in the Ladder I would strongly suspect someone offering Bers to be actually selling dupes or employing a bot), but difficult to achieve without lots and lots of grinding, and when talking with new players I tend to assume that doing lots and lots of grinding is not what they have in mind.

Winter, I've seen you in the Magic thread. You're telling me you don't know how to trade up?Actually, I genuinely have more fun playing with self-found equipment. Feels like more of an accomplishment to me. Though I try to keep myself informed about the rough relative value of things nonetheless.

As for Magic, I trade with my friends. And we usually look up what the cards would be worth online and try to exchange cards of similar value.

Hell Countess drops pretty high ones (I've even seen Ist and Gul.) Ber is not out of reach.Hell Countess has a highly increased chance for all runes up to Ist (drops one about once in 250 instances, if I remember correctly). She can drop Gul, but only as a regular item, not her special bonus rune drop (so, the chance of that happening is one to several thousand at best). I think higher runes are not possible for a monster of her level, might be mistaken though.

What? Conviction caps at 25 (-150% res.) So he would only need +13 to skills, which he'll probably be getting anyway. Anything more than that is a complete waste. The only reason Auradin maxes conviction is because Dream, Dragon et al don't add +skills, so they need the extra boost to reliably hit the cap....you consider +13 to all skills a given?
Yeah, you are playing a very different game than I do. I tend to calculate more with +7 or 8; I think my level 94 sorc with something like 500 or 600 MF had +11 or so when switching from her MF to her combat equipment.

You're right though, forgot about the level 25 cap there. So, yeah, Infinity is undeniably better - if one manages to assemble it.

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 04:11 PM

On the other hand, unless you are travelling with a Necro, all you have to do is to turn on Redemption for one second after the battle, and your mana is completely refilled again.

That's assuming you survive to the end of said battle. Avengers are high damage... to one target at a time, for a LOT of mana, where none of your combat skills synergize with your defenses, and the elemental damage doesn't get leeched like other melee builds (frenzybarb, clawsin, spearazon, zealot etc.)

It is... unusual, but its damage output is not particularly high. Plus, at that point, one might pretty much just as well play a slightly more defensively built sorc, and would still get a higher kill rate.

It's the same speed as an Avenger - you're still killing one target at a time with conviction up, the only difference is that you're not in their armpit. When you're up against Undead, you can easily clear a room with a few shots, and heal your allies at the same time. Plus there is holy shock synergy, so you can double as a quasi-shockadin when you really want to take on big groups. Avengers can't do any of that.

...wait, you're talking about Non-Ladder?
Nevermind, then, I know precisely nothing about the Non-Ladder scene. Might as well be items are available as cheaply as you say there. Sorry, I've never played Non-Ladder, so I tend to forget it exists.

Fine, shorten it for ladder. The point is that there are people that play this game 24/7. Yes, that includes bots, but what do you expect from a Blizzard game?

I'm not talking about the socketable items - finding those should be the least problem - but finding anything worth two Ber-runes might be difficult. Not impossible, by no means (though at least in the Ladder I would strongly suspect someone offering Bers to be actually selling dupes or employing a bot), but difficult to achieve without lots and lots of grinding, and when talking with new players I tend to assume that doing lots and lots of grinding is not what they have in mind.

But you're advice is going to have them playing for hours anyway on a build that said grinding can easily render obsolete. Why not play something else for the same amount of time and work up to a superior form of the conviction build that way? At least then you'll have two good characters (or the gear for the second, anyway) instead of just one.

Actually, I genuinely have more fun playing with self-found equipment. Feels like more of an accomplishment to me. Though I try to keep myself informed about the rough relative value of things nonetheless.

I enjoy wearing gear I find too, but when my paladin gets Tal Rasha's plate or an Occy, I tend not to leave him holding it.

As for Magic, I trade with my friends. And we usually look up what the cards would be worth online and try to exchange cards of similar value.

There's nothing wrong with that, but generally people outside your circle of friends have a wider selection, in both games.

Hell Countess has a highly increased chance for all runes up to Ist (drops one about once in 250 instances, if I remember correctly). She can drop Gul, but only as a regular item, not her special bonus rune drop (so, the chance of that happening is one to several thousand at best). I think higher runes are not possible for a monster of her level, might be mistaken though.

You misread my post. I didn't say Countess could drop Ber; I said Ber is not out of reach because Countess can drop runes that you can then trade up for a Ber.

...you consider +13 to all skills a given?
Yeah, you are playing a very different game than I do. I tend to calculate more with +7 or 8; I think my level 94 sorc with something like 500 or 600 MF had +11 or so when switching from her MF to her combat equipment.

2 helm, 2 armor, 3 weapon, 2 hoz, 1 each from rings, 2 ammy (let's assume a rare instead of Mara)... that's +12, and I haven't even considered charms yet.

u-gotNOgame

2009-09-01, 05:48 PM

2 helm, 2 armor, 3 weapon, 2 hoz, 1 each from rings, 2 ammy (let's assume a rare instead of Mara)... that's +12, and I haven't even considered charms yet.

Thats a lot of high end gear for a new person to obtain, lets look at items offering those.
Helm:
Shako (not expensive, but not cheep either)
Rare Circ's (free imbue to very expensive depending on other mods)

Armor:
Arkaine Valor (50/50 +1 or +2)
Enigma (very out of reach)
Chains of Honor (almost more out of reach)

Weapon:
HoTo (technicly only one HR so its doable, low ones sell cheep)
Rare Sept's (up to +2 all and +3 automods)

Sheild:
HoZ (expensive and rare)
IMHO get yourself a spirit shield, you'll go farther.

Rings:
SoJ
BK Both very rare and/or expensive

Ammy:
The one peice of gear that you might get, +2 <class skills> isn't all that hard to come by.

Charms:
Torch (even low Ptorches sell amazingly high)
Anni (Hard to get)
+1 skillers (Usually more expensive then the above two depending on the mods of each)

Overall thats a lot to look forward to, but its a long way away. For first chars build something that you'll have fun with. If your looking to slaughter things, go with a Hdin or a Javazon and trade up for all that gear that makes the game boring. If your looking for a more metered strategy oriented game play a "underpowered" build and have a blast running with self found gear and actually feel accomplished when you finally beat hell Baal.

Note: if your looking to get into the Ladder trading scene you might be better off starting with a Blizzard Sorc and tele-running act bosses for gear to sell.

-UGNG

Winterwind

2009-09-01, 05:49 PM

That's assuming you survive to the end of said battle. Avengers are high damage... to one target at a time, for a LOT of mana, where none of your combat skills synergize with your defenses, and the elemental damage doesn't get leeched like other melee builds (frenzybarb, clawsin, spearazon, zealot etc.)In regular battles, it is enough. Otherwise, there are potions.

It's the same speed as an Avenger - you're still killing one target at a time with conviction up, the only difference is that you're not in their armpit. When you're up against Undead, you can easily clear a room with a few shots, and heal your allies at the same time. Plus there is holy shock synergy, so you can double as a quasi-shockadin when you really want to take on big groups. Avengers can't do any of that.Except that for comparable equipment, the damage output of a fist will end up lower than that of an avenger's attack, and you still cast more slowly than you would attack.

Fine, shorten it for ladder. The point is that there are people that play this game 24/7. Yes, that includes bots, but what do you expect from a Blizzard game?The drop chances of high runes are so low, and runewords using them so frequent, that the vast majority of them still pretty much has to be dupes.

But you're advice is going to have them playing for hours anyway on a build that said grinding can easily render obsolete. Why not play something else for the same amount of time and work up to a superior form of the conviction build that way? At least then you'll have two good characters (or the gear for the second, anyway) instead of just one....huh? Where does a second character come from here? :smallconfused:
Anyway, no, I didn't advocate grinding anywhere. My assumption was just playing through the game (on all difficulties), no more.

I enjoy wearing gear I find too, but when my paladin gets Tal Rasha's plate or an Occy, I tend not to leave him holding it.Oh, no doubt. But those will give you mid-runes at best.

There's nothing wrong with that, but generally people outside your circle of friends have a wider selection, in both games.Oh, definitely. But in Magic, I'm perfectly content as long as my decks remain on a similar level as those of my friends, so I have little reason to go looking for cards apart from the occasional boosters, and as for D2, playing in a group of a few people, all of whom run a couple characters, ensures that any item has somebody who wants it. Not to mention it ensures the equipment one uses is legit.

You misread my post. I didn't say Countess could drop Ber; I said Ber is not out of reach because Countess can drop runes that you can then trade up for a Ber....if you are willing to invest several hours per day for several days doing nothing but Countess runs.
Let's say you manage one Countess run per 4 minutes. That's still more than 16 hours of non-stop play per Ist-rune, on average. Even with the other runes this would net you, it seems doubtful it would get you a Ber.
While there are people who do that, it's not something I'm going to assume a new player is going to do.

2 helm, 2 armor, 3 weapon, 2 hoz, 1 each from rings, 2 ammy (let's assume a rare instead of Mara)... that's +12, and I haven't even considered charms yet.Helm with +2 - realistic, one gets plenty of those by gambling. With luck, one might find a unique with that, or something tradeable for one.

Armour with +2 - no way. Practically only high runewords carry +2 to all stats on armours. The only unique armour that can do that is Arkaine's Valor, and rares and magic armours have no +skills on armours.

Weapon with +3 - barely possible. Avengers have to look for weapons with good base damage (so cheap solutions with lots of +skills but poor damage are out) - apart from high runewords, again outside of casual players' reach, that leaves only the unique exceptional and elite sceptres - most of which have very low drop chances. Some of them are comparatively cheap for high-level equipment though, and even a casual player might be able to trade for them with a bit of patience and luck.

Herald of Zakarum - very barely possible. Very low drop chance. Moderately expensive, but with luck it might be affordable.
On the other hand, +2 to skills can spawn on magic/rare paladin shields, too, so this one is possible at least.
EDIT: Or Spirit, of course, yeah.

Rings with +1 - unlikely. Both the Ring of Jordan and Bul Kathos Wedding Band are extremely expensive and difficult to find for casual players.

Ammy with +2 - Okay, that's moderately easy.

So that's about +4 that are moderately easy to get, and I'd say somewhere between 1 and 5 that are not too unlikely for a casual player to get from some other equipment piece or another.

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 09:24 PM

In regular battles, it is enough. Otherwise, there are potions.

Melee with potions, no leech and low defense is a good way to get killed in Hell. A Templar can kill foes with potions without ever entering melee.

Except that for comparable equipment, the damage output of a fist will end up lower than that of an avenger's attack, and you still cast more slowly than you would attack.

It will? Vengeance has powerful synergies, but all are in defensive skills. FoH on the other hand gets empowered by Holy Shock and Bolt. There's also no reason to pump the resist auras besides synergies, because an Avenger will have Conviction out all the time anyway. Finally, the Avenger can't switch to Holy Shock when he's low on mana, but the Templar can.

The drop chances of high runes are so low, and runewords using them so frequent, that the vast majority of them still pretty much has to be dupes.

Even assuming you're right, so what? Hasn't stopped anyone else from using them.

...huh? Where does a second character come from here? :smallconfused:
Anyway, no, I didn't advocate grinding anywhere. My assumption was just playing through the game (on all difficulties), no more.

Even playing through the game involves grinding at some point. Past 70, Baal runs are pretty much the only way to level. Hell, past 60.

Oh, no doubt. But those will give you mid-runes at best.

...which you then trade up.

Oh, definitely. But in Magic, I'm perfectly content as long as my decks remain on a similar level as those of my friends, so I have little reason to go looking for cards apart from the occasional boosters, and as for D2, playing in a group of a few people, all of whom run a couple characters, ensures that any item has somebody who wants it. Not to mention it ensures the equipment one uses is legit.

If you're paranoid that the runes/gear used by anyone not in your group of friends is illegitimate, that's fine, but you shouldn't assume that of everyone - not even new players.

...if you are willing to invest several hours per day for several days doing nothing but Countess runs.
Let's say you manage one Countess run per 4 minutes. That's still more than 16 hours of non-stop play per Ist-rune, on average. Even with the other runes this would net you, it seems doubtful it would get you a Ber.
While there are people who do that, it's not something I'm going to assume a new player is going to do.

You're missing my point. You can do these runs while levelling. Countess is a great exp spot for someone near the end of Act 1 Hell. This isn't WoW where SFK runs are done on grey mobs. If you're going to be grinding levels, it's illogical to do it somewhere where the payout is low.

Armour with +2 - no way. Practically only high runewords carry +2 to all stats on armours. The only unique armour that can do that is Arkaine's Valor, and rares and magic armours have no +skills on armours.

Principle, Paladin Armor Runeword: Ral-Gul-Eld. Eld is dirt cheap, Ral you get from a quest, Gul drops from Countess so is easily traded for (assuming you don't just find your own.) +2 all skills.

Rings with +1 - unlikely. Both the Ring of Jordan and Bul Kathos Wedding Band are extremely expensive and difficult to find for casual players.

Replace with charms then, and you're right back to my number.

nooblade

2009-09-01, 10:35 PM

Hmm. I think in all the time I spent seriously playing, maybe there was a monthish period of time where I could've found some skiller charms (I am very off-on-off-on), and I have less than ten.

But yeah, I like builds where you go a bit slower in Hell and it isn't such a problem what you have. The Amazon build where you go after Lightning Fury, Poison/Plage Javelin, with whatever you need or can spare in Decoy/Valk, and finally one point in Freezing Arrow and another in Guided Arrow, that was the kind of thing that made D2 really awesome fun to play.

So... I'm a little busy for the next week or two with school, but my interest in d2 is waxing again for some reason. The thread seems more active too. Does anyone want to fool around in softcore on some periodic basis? Maybe playing once or twice a week was a bit too much.

Myrmex

2009-09-01, 11:36 PM

I'm not saying Venomancers are bad, but they are definitely in a lower tier.

Depends on play. If you've got an infinity merc and enigma, you'll do fine. But then, with that level of gear, a sorceress that uses enchant and turns into a bone fetish to headbutt opponents will, too.

I've built both, and the bone necro is definitely better for solo play.

I'd rather trade those exceptional uniques for mid runes and skulls/gems. I can then trade up for higher runes, or use them in cube recipes (e.g. for rejuvenation potions, to reroll rares, or add sockets to elites.) The golem does nothing for me that a clay golem can't. Its thorns aura is a joke compared to clay's slowing (which, as I pointed out earlier, stacks with decrepify.)

There are only a handful of unique exceptionals that people will trade for. The rest just take up inventory space. Weapons for builds that no one uses, like the polearm class, take up 8 slots and aren't going anywhere. Kelpie Snare, for instance, makes an excellent golem. With all my mf equipment on, my skeletons tend to be a little slow in killing stuff, so I prefer higher dps out of my golem rather than have it... do nothing.

I know Decrepify is great, but spamming it is a great way to drain your mana.

What else are you going to spend mana on in a boss fight as a summoner?

Ok, that avenger build your talking about looks right up my alley, so, could you point me towards a site with the build all mapped out per level? Also, does no one really mess with the shield skills or defensive stats, I kinda figured that would be the pallys specialty seeing as he's the only one with any kind of tanky stuff.

I tried building one, and without having really great gear, it's just not worth it. They have a severe mana problem, and leech gear is really inefficient on them. Not only do you have to deal with 1/3 leech in hell, but your "white" damage, or physical damage, gets converted into elemental damage and added as a bonus, which has no effect on leech. So if you are doing, say, 100 white damage, then after physical resistance and reduction of leech in hell, you are getting too small of a fraction of mana back to work.

The build looks really attractive, but I haven't been able to make it work at any level. On the plus side, it can become practically immune to elemental damage. With the right gear, you can actually become immune to all but poison damage.

The other big problem is no crowd control. They can't kill monsters fast enough.

Don't build a hammerdin. They're way over done. Everyone makes hammerdins.

You're not really supposed to be tanking in Diablo. The best defense is a good offense, that sort of thing. When you and a javazon both enter the cow level, neither of you will die, but she will have killed three times as many bad guys as you in the same amount of time.

Smiters/Defiants are good because they stun the enemy and have supremely high physical defense; howerver, the most dangerous attacks the bosses possess are typically not physical (excepting maybe Duriel.) Also, in PvP you're much more likely to have to deal with elemental damage than physical except from barbarians and bowzons.

Smiters are built for PvP (stunlock) and killing ubers, since smite ignores armor.

If it's a conviction paladin you want, don't waste time maxing the aura yourself. Just get the Infinity runeword.

If you want to actually spend real life dollars buying gear, sure. Level 25 Conviction increases your damage significantly more than level 13 (or is it 15?), though. Level 25 is the conviction cap. Anything above that won't help it. So if you think you can get gear to boost it more than +5, don't max it.

Otherwise, definitely max it. It is much MUCH faster to rebuild a character than assemble 4 hi runes + a 4 socket drop that will be worth as much as a hi rune or 2.

Trading isn't legitimate? :smallconfused:

It's easy. just collect gems and skulls. Even a window of chipped gems can get you decent runes thanks to the cube recipes. Trade any uniques/sets you find for more gems, and trade good rares for runes directly.

The best part is, he's levelling a character that won't be made redundant while doing so.

Who the heck trades for gems, especially chips? The 3 chips + sword got a HUGE nerf. You can no longer roll socketed CCBQs.

Myrmex

2009-09-01, 11:41 PM

It will? Vengeance has powerful synergies, but all are in defensive skills. FoH on the other hand gets empowered by Holy Shock and Bolt. There's also no reason to pump the resist auras besides synergies, because an Avenger will have Conviction out all the time anyway. Finally, the Avenger can't switch to Holy Shock when he's low on mana, but the Templar can.

Conviction greatly increases damage, but isn't necessary to always have out. You can swap to other auras as needed. Also, the resist auras increase the maximum resistance cap for every hard point you put in. My Avenger has a hard cap of 85 for all elemental resistances. With +max resistance gear & absorb, you can easily become immune to elemental damage. That's actually the biggest appeal, is the incredibly tankiness of the Avenger. The underwhelming crowd control just makes it not worth it (unless you have sorc backing you up).

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 12:28 AM

There are only a handful of unique exceptionals that people will trade for. The rest just take up inventory space. Weapons for builds that no one uses, like the polearm class, take up 8 slots and aren't going anywhere. Kelpie Snare, for instance, makes an excellent golem. With all my mf equipment on, my skeletons tend to be a little slow in killing stuff, so I prefer higher dps out of my golem rather than have it... do nothing.

The Kelpie Snare bit is a fair point, but I was talking about Bonemancers (Osteomancers) when I chose Clay over Iron.

What else are you going to spend mana on in a boss fight as a summoner?

Again, I was comparing bone to venom, my post didn't mention Summoners at all.

Smiters are built for PvP (stunlock) and killing ubers, since smite ignores armor.

Because they max HS so soon, they're pretty good at staying alive, which is why I figured a newer player would like one. Smite also stays at a constant 2 MP per hit.

If you want to actually spend real life dollars buying gear, sure.

Since you bring it up, Infinity is $2.50 online. I don't know about you, but I make more than that in an hour, and I'd be sure to get many hours of enjoyment out of a merc equipped with that thing.

Level 25 Conviction increases your damage significantly more than level 13 (or is it 15?), though. Level 25 is the conviction cap. Anything above that won't help it. So if you think you can get gear to boost it more than +5, don't max it.

Otherwise, definitely max it. It is much MUCH faster to rebuild a character than assemble 4 hi runes + a 4 socket drop that will be worth as much as a hi rune or 2.

But the points you sink into it will be wasted once you DO have those +skills. So it is better to not spend them. Max other things first while you wait if you wish; it's win-win.

Who the heck trades for gems, especially chips? The 3 chips + sword got a HUGE nerf. You can no longer roll socketed CCBQs.

I haven't played in awhile, so 1.12 may have changed the economy somewhat; but gems of various quality are still needed to upgrade runes above Thul if Arreat is correct.

Perfect gems (and skulls) remain useful, and are easily acquired even by new players.

Celesyne

2009-09-02, 01:06 AM

Ok, after I do a reinstall (because a registry cleaner I ran deleted the D2 registry keys) I have my hands on the expansion. I'm going to be playing a Paladin, most likely using the angel build off of the site Winter posted. Is there a specific channel/game you guys play in, and should i run ladder/non and softcore/hardcore?

Amiria

2009-09-02, 05:26 AM

The channel is "op gitp", but it might be quite empty most of the time. I haven't played D2 for some weeks now and even when I did in the past months I usually played alone (meeting with Hajo - who also played a lot - in games to transfer/mule stuff) since our D2 community isn't as big as it used to be (back in 2007/08) shrunk. Winterwind and some others returned, but they play ladder hardcore.

I'd start with ladder softcore. That's what most people play (including me, if I return).

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 08:49 AM

Melee with potions, no leech and low defense is a good way to get killed in Hell. A Templar can kill foes with potions without ever entering melee.Only if one is not careful.

It will? Vengeance has powerful synergies, but all are in defensive skills. FoH on the other hand gets empowered by Holy Shock and Bolt. There's also no reason to pump the resist auras besides synergies, because an Avenger will have Conviction out all the time anyway. Finally, the Avenger can't switch to Holy Shock when he's low on mana, but the Templar can.What does it matter where the synergies lie, when this is the skill you are using? And no, an Avenger will not have Conviction out at all times. The Resist auras on early levels and Salvation on higher ones find plenty of usage (since a casual player is unlikely to have 75% resistances without them). Otherwise, if the Avenger runs out of mana, he turns on Redemption for a moment, and is not longer out of mana. And since he is in melee, Redemption will actually find something in range.

Even assuming you're right, so what? Hasn't stopped anyone else from using them.Firstly - there is a risk you log on one day, and find all these runes have suddenly disappeared.
Secondly, you might note I said "it depends on your personal stance regading non-legit items" and "personally, I wouldn't touch them with a polearm".

Even playing through the game involves grinding at some point. Past 70, Baal runs are pretty much the only way to level. Hell, past 60.Not true at all. If you do not skip acts, you literally do not have to stop to grind ever.

...which you then trade up....to get one high rune at best out of it, while you are assuming several, plus other high level gear.

If you're paranoid that the runes/gear used by anyone not in your group of friends is illegitimate, that's fine, but you shouldn't assume that of everyone - not even new players. I don't think I did that. I repeatedly emphasized that this was merely my own stance to trading for things of that level (no problem with lower level gear. That has a good chance of being legit, since it actually drops once in a while). This part was not about why new players would not be able to afford such items, it was about why I myself would not consider getting them from such sources. The reasons why I don't think new players can afford these items are in the rest of my posts - things valuable enough to trade them for these items do not drop enough, unless one is willing to grind a lot, and really, really long, which is not a reasonable assumption to make about a new player.

You're missing my point. You can do these runs while levelling. Countess is a great exp spot for someone near the end of Act 1 Hell. This isn't WoW where SFK runs are done on grey mobs. If you're going to be grinding levels, it's illogical to do it somewhere where the payout is low.That's the point though. If. I'm not assuming a casual player to grind at all. Matter of fact, that's the main difference I see between a casual player and a non-casual one - the latter is willing to repeat one and the same routine for hours in order to improve the character, the former is in just for the fun at playing and would be bored out of his mind by this.

Principle, Paladin Armor Runeword: Ral-Gul-Eld. Eld is dirt cheap, Ral you get from a quest, Gul drops from Countess so is easily traded for (assuming you don't just find your own.) +2 all skills.Since the chance of the Countess dropping Gul is one to several thousand, you'd get that Gul much more quickly by creating one character after the other, having them do the 4-2 quest in Hell, and deleting them. Even so, yes, that is possible. It would blow the vast majority of that player's total budget, but it would work.

Replace with charms then, and you're right back to my number.Of which one finds one per two weeks of play? One per week, maybe, if one uses perfect gems to boost one's chances (but then, those would be the gems you wanted to trade for high runes, so it's one thing or the other). Most of which are for the wrong class, and even so increase only one of the three trees.

Since you bring it up, Infinity is $2.50 online. I don't know about you, but I make more than that in an hour, and I'd be sure to get many hours of enjoyment out of a merc equipped with that thing.Paying money for having one of the major purposes of playing the game in the first place removed?
Yeah, I think we should just cease this discussion and agree to disagree. Obviously, we derive fun from very much different sources in this game and play it in a very different way. What you described here would actively remove the fun out of the game for me.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 09:38 AM

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 10:22 AM

I guess we should. To me, the risk of runes poofing is paltry compared to not being able to use them at all, but I respect your preference.

My stance on paying for gear: I'll gladly do it for MF gear, and then find goodies for my other characters thereby, especially now since I'd be starting from scratch by reinstalling the game. I'd only do that Softcore though - Hardcore with you guys, I'd play from the ground up as per usual, and let the better drop rates in HC make up the difference instead. It's simple economics for me, but that's another discussion that I won't get into here. (Maybe I'll make another thread...)A perfectly reasonable stance to take. Not one that I share, but I fully understand. :smallsmile:

I still don't think Avenger is the best build to recommend to a new player. It can be fun to play, don't get me wrong, but it's a dead-end build with poor efficiency and zero crowd control. It's not the kind of build I think it's fair to recommend to players who don't know exactly what they're getting into. Worse, it's a trap - lots of players see "Vengeance and Conviction! I can't lose!" then end up chain potting their way through entire acts.Well, the Avenger was my pretty much my first build ever and seemed to work just fine (and I keep recreating it pretty much every time I start playing D2 again), so I may have an idealized image of him. Anyhow, I listed a whole number of various common pally builds, starting with the hammerdin and the zealot. :smallwink:

Not skipping acts usually means playing alone, unless you find a dedicated group of friends willing to actually slum through all the areas and not simply waypoint to where they need to be. Plus the payout is much lower if you're not grinding something or somewhere that drops decent gear. Chacun a son gout.Oh, I know. On the other hand, it's much less repetitive.
I used to be of the "no entering Nightmare before Baalrunning till level 50" mentality too. But I've since found out it's in no way necessary, and I'd rather spend several hours in diverse settings than doing one and the same thing for hours and then skipping forward to doing the same thing again on a higher difficulty.

I'll give hc a try when I reinstall; I might wait until 1.13 before getting back into the game though.Personally, I find it much more fun - the thrill of actually being in danger goes a long way to restoring the more sinister atmosphere of D1 that I found so sadly missing from D2. :smallsmile:

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 10:43 AM

Personally, I find it much more fun - the thrill of actually being in danger goes a long way to restoring the more sinister atmosphere of D1 that I found so sadly missing from D2. :smallsmile:

D1's "sinister atmosphere" mostly comes from your gear flying out of your corpse on death. :smalltongue: That said, I can see how Hardcore could evoke that sense of dread in a way that softcore can't match. And again, the improved drop quality rates do appeal to me.

I would only play HC with friends/playgrounders though; plenty of asshats in the public games there.

For me, D2 had that sinister atmosphere, but I didn't really experience it until the Durance of Hate (end of Act 3) and those damn exploding bone fetishes. Then I lost it all over again with Act 5's bright and open Bloody Foothills runs. C'est la vie I guess. I wonder how well D3 will be at evoking that? Judging from the classes they've spoiled so far (http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/index.xml), I don't think I'll feel in danger at all with the ubermensch I'll be piloting to mow down swarms of baddies.

nooblade

2009-09-02, 11:04 AM

Public hardcore games are mostly empty, too. Go to the lobby and there are less than ten games most of the time, for the time I checked it out anyway.

Ok, after I do a reinstall (because a registry cleaner I ran deleted the D2 registry keys) I have my hands on the expansion. I'm going to be playing a Paladin, most likely using the angel build off of the site Winter posted. Is there a specific channel/game you guys play in, and should i run ladder/non and softcore/hardcore?

Sorting out the times we play in isn't going to be much fun with the timezones and the laadeeda. The group that plays d2 is not big enough that you're guaranteed to find someone in the channel unless you sort it out before you go there, though.

I'm in Pacific, that's GMT - 7 (scroll to the very bottom of your forum screen, and it will show you the GMT equivalent of the timezone you selected, i.e., "All times are GMT - 7. The current time is xx:yy"). Weekends are naturally the best times to play. I should be available sometime around then, but wouldn't want to play for all day...

I think I'd like to stick to ladder/softcore, but I know I was all for hardcore for a bit. I much prefer ladder because of a few fun runewords that are available even at low levels. You can trade for them in non-ladder, but you can't make them, which is a huge damper IMHO.

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 11:11 AM

D1's "sinister atmosphere" mostly comes from your gear flying out of your corpse on death. :smalltongue: That said, I can see how Hardcore could evoke that sense of dread in a way that softcore can't match. And again, the improved drop quality rates do appeal to me.The gear flying out of the corpse is what I meant - it makes a death something one is afraid of, since in the best case it's a major inconvenience, in the worst case it may mean losing the gear permanently (happened to me once, when I died on some deep level, with no TP open, and the stairs leading down to it were surrounded by so many monsters going down meant instant death with no chance to lure them away, teleport out or any other such thing).

I would only play HC with friends/playgrounders though; plenty of asshats in the public games there.Judging by the rumours, a public game on HC is tantamount to instant death to PK. Wouldn't know though, never played HC public.

For me, D2 had that sinister atmosphere, but I didn't really experience it until the Durance of Hate (end of Act 3) and those damn exploding bone fetishes. Then I lost it all over again with Act 5's bright and open Bloody Foothills runs. C'est la vie I guess. I wonder how well D3 will be at evoking that? Judging from the classes they've spoiled so far (http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/index.xml), I don't think I'll feel in danger at all with the ubermensch I'll be piloting to mow down swarms of baddies.I think they might capture it by making the player constantly aware that really powerful beings are nearby (but not necessarily have them engage instantly). Sort of like they did in the first gameplay video they published, where one can hear this giant monster, can feel the effects of its presence, sees it briefly in the distance, but engages it only later. Now, with more randomized events, when one wouldn't be sure when such a thing would engage exactly...

Also, music. The sounds in the background contributed greatly to D1's atmosphere; when I started to play D2, there were two things I noticed immediately: Firstly, the graphical effects were much more impressive, and secondly, the music and sounds were vastly inferior.

I've heard some samples of music that was meant to be in D2, but never made the cut, and I totally do not understand why. For example, for the wilderness of the first act, they originally had a similar theme, but twice as fast, with guitars and flutes, in a similar style as the original Tristram theme. Sounded very cool; much better than what they ultimately picked.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 11:28 AM

The gear flying out of the corpse is what I meant - it makes a death something one is afraid of, since in the best case it's a major inconvenience, in the worst case it may mean losing the gear permanently (happened to me once, when I died on some deep level, with no TP open, and the stairs leading down to it were surrounded by so many monsters going down meant instant death with no chance to lure them away, teleport out or any other such thing).

In my opinion, that was a failing of D1 though - that the biggest source of fear was evoked not through atmosphere, but poor design. (The same way early Resident Evils became scarier when you ran out of typewriter ribbons.) Worse, most deaths online were due to lag and hackers rather than actual difficulty. I remember vividly being PKed, having a favorite staff looted from me, and then joining a game with a so-called "bounty hunter." I gave him the username of my attacker, and sure enough an hour later he returned with my assailant's ear. It was a very surreal experience. I remember having such incongruous thoughts as "maybe MAN is the true devil here"; pretty deep stuff for a 15-year old.

But I digress :smallsmile: Yes, I'll be avoiding pub HCs like the plague!

Also, music. The sounds in the background contributed greatly to D1's atmosphere; when I started to play D2, there were two things I noticed immediately: Firstly, the graphical effects were much more impressive, and secondly, the music and sounds were vastly inferior.

I've got to agree about the music, though Act 3 had some great numbers. I disagree with you on sound though; the vocals and fx were spot on for me. From the Smith's booming "I'll make weapons from your BONES!" to the Countess' sultry "Care for a bloodbath?" and the Summoner's tinkling laugh just before his Glacial Spike spam. Not to mention nervously looking over my shoulder every time I heard fetishes jabbering on Hell, and even laughing at the Fallen One's "Rakanishu!" in Act 1.

I've heard some samples of music that was meant to be in D2, but never made the cut, and I totally do not understand why. For example, for the wilderness of the first act, they originally had a similar theme, but twice as fast, with guitars and flutes, in a similar style as the original Tristram theme. Sounded very cool; much better than what they ultimately picked.

Interesting! Got a link?

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 12:05 PM

There are a handful of low level runewords that are really useful. Ancient's Pledge can be made in a 3 socket shield from the runes you get in Act 5 for that quest. It has good armor & resistance, and in a high level shield, can make a good stand in until you get something better. Spirit is a +2 all skills rune word that goes in either a 4 socket shield or 4 socket sword. It requires thul, amn, ort, and tal, but not in that order (Arreat Summit has the recipe). Ideally you want a 4 socket crystal sword, since there's only a str requirement, and it's pretty low. However, you have to find one, which might take awhile. Alternatively, pick up a non-magic longsword late in nightmare or any part of Hell difficulty, take it to Larzuk, and he will put 4 sockets in it. Larzuk always puts the maximum number of sockets in an item, either up to the items ilvl (dependent on the monster that dropped it), or the items max sockets, whichever is lower. So a flail dropped in act 2 normal difficulty gets up to 3 sockets, but dropped in hell it gets 5 or 6 (cant remember which).

Insight is another really great rune word that needs only low runes. When equipped, it gives you a meditation aura. Put it on an act 2 mercenary, or turn it into an iron golem. Or put it in your off weapon slot, and hit 'W' when ever you need a quick mana refresher.

Fortitude is a good piece of armor for mercenaries if you can put it in an ethereal, 4 socket, piece of armor.

Some items are worth a lot more than you would think they would be. Monarchs, a type of shield, when they come with no sockets, 3 sockets, or 4 sockets, can be traded for pretty good stuff. Ethereal colossal voulges, 4 socket crystal swords, 4 socket etheral balrog skin & ethereal boneweave, 5 (or 6?) socket flails, and any elite, ethereal items that can be turned into rune words that a) have an aura or b) are indestructible, can typically be traded for at least a high rune.

But the points you sink into it will be wasted once you DO have those +skills. So it is better to not spend them. Max other things first while you wait if you wish; it's win-win.

No, it won't be wasted, because you just rebuild the character and get him up to level 80 with ten hours of play and a friend with teleport. In the interim, you have a character that can actually do stuff without waiting on gear that isn't going to show up because you can't kill things.

I haven't played in awhile, so 1.12 may have changed the economy somewhat; but gems of various quality are still needed to upgrade runes above Thul if Arreat is correct.

Perfect gems (and skulls) remain useful, and are easily acquired even by new players.

Pgems & low to mid runes can be traded for exceptional uniques, pieces of sets no one wants, and *maybe* some bad unique elite items. Which is good when you are leveling, but by the time you are in hell, a lot of that stuff is pretty useless. That's why I recommend making a summonmancer- all you care about are +summon skills effects & mf. Resistance, hp, mana, faster cast, defense hardly matter, since you won't be in melee. That way, you can effectively build your character up without having to rely on the kindness, or stupidity, of strangers.

Speaking of MF, 4 socket balrog skin with 4 ptopaz in it is pretty sweet. I lucked out and found a Gull Dagger, which has 100% mf on it. If you grind act 1 normal, I bet you can get it to drop eventually. I can't remember who dropped it for me, but it was very exciting. Nagel rings & goldwrap are both fairly common drops, as is tarnhelm & chance guards. All will drop in normal difficulty, so grinding there is fine. You'll have to find a good balance between gear that does stuff & MF gear, though. Personally, I like having a good wand (found King Leoric's* the other day on my summonmancer**) + spirit/good head on one weapon load out, and mf on the other. Once you get to a high enough level, you can do most of nightmare without much dependency on gear, since you'll have your main skills & their synergies mostly maxed out. There, much better gear will drop, though not the best.

*King Leoric's has a proc to cast bone prison on getting hit. I was doing a countess run, and stepped in some fire, which proc'd bone prison right on top of me. I was trapped on a patch of fire, in hell difficulty, with neg fire resistance. I figured I could chug potions and last 24 seconds, when it proc'd two more times. I went through all my potions, and just barely escaped. It would have been funny, if it hadn't sucked so much. Dying as a summonmancer sucks, since you lose your golem, your merc, and all your skeles.

**Summoned monsters are created at the skill level of their skill at the time of casting, and don't change if you change equipment. So you can have a +3 item of blood golem, make a higher level blood golem, then switch back to your normal gear. However, and I'm not sure about this, if you have mf gear on, the summons are made with the amount of mf gear you have at the time of their creation. So when I do runs in hell, I go down with my "kill stuff" gear on, and beat the boss to an inch of his life. Then I go to town, equip my mf gear, go remake my skeletons in an easy zone of act 1, and finish the boss. Your mercenary gets all the mf on him AND all the mf on you, so if you were to put mf gear on him and let him get the finishing blow on something, you could get a lot of mf out of it. Unfortunately, mercs do like 1/10 damage to act bosses. I guess a jab merc + crushing blow might be able to do it.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 12:24 PM

Myr: you forgot to mention the paladin runeword I posted, Principle, which is exceedingly cheap for what it does. Gul, the most expensive rune in the recipe, is not an HR (HRs start at Vex.)

No, it won't be wasted, because you just rebuild the character and get him up to level 80 with ten hours of play and a friend with teleport. In the interim, you have a character that can actually do stuff without waiting on gear that isn't going to show up because you can't kill things.

The hours you sink into an Avenger waiting for him to get geared, you could sink into something with much more damage output AND survivability, like a Trapsin, Windy Druid, Javazon, Zealot, Shockadin, etc. etc. ad nauseam. That way, you have a character that can be effective even with poor gear that can then turn around and get good gear for your Avenger/Vindicator/Auradin if you wish. That was my point.

Pgems & low to mid runes can be traded for exceptional uniques, pieces of sets no one wants, and *maybe* some bad unique elite items. Which is good when you are leveling, but by the time you are in hell, a lot of that stuff is pretty useless. That's why I recommend making a summonmancer- all you care about are +summon skills effects & mf. Resistance, hp, mana, faster cast, defense hardly matter, since you won't be in melee. That way, you can effectively build your character up without having to rely on the kindness, or stupidity, of strangers.

For the last time, I have nothing against Summonancers. The poster I was responding to specifically wanted a comparison between Venomancers and Osteomancers. That is why my post didn't mention Summoners, not because I don't think the build is any good. Obviously summoners are great now that they fixed Raise Skeleton. Furthermore, every Necromancer has a way of beating Physical immunes built-in, so not even those will stop their clacking army. So I agree with you.

A summoner is probably the best build for a newer player - you'll be effective from level 1 all the way up. But the playstyle can be boring. It boils down to "Curse monsters, wait, replenish army, move on." You don't even have to move during combat most of the time, unless you're up against something that can shoot past your front line like Gloams... and even then you're relegated to just dodging while your army does the dirty work. Once you get Enigma and can gather up your minions with a click it becomes even more autopilot.

To get high runes with gems, trade them en masse, sweetened with mid runes and even items. Someone will want them for cubing, it's just a matter of finding a buyer and being patient. It isn't "stupidity" either; it's economics. If aperson can trade one Jah rune and outfit three other characters with the proceeds, chances are he will, because those three other characters can then find more runes for him, and he won't get bored playing.

If you approach trading with that mindset, you'll always find a buyer.

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 12:38 PM

Myr: you forgot to mention the paladin runeword I posted, Principle, which is exceedingly cheap for what it does. Gul, the most expensive rune in the recipe, is not an HR (HRs start at Vex.)

I was only mentioning rune words that used runes you could find in normal. Grinding normal CAN get you significant improvements to gear that might even last you in Hell, especially if you tag along on a Chaos Sanctuary run and grab monarchs or 4 socket long swords, or a good two socket helm (for that rune word that takes sol and gives +1 all skills).

The hours you sink into an Avenger waiting for him to get geared, you could sink into something with much more damage output AND survivability, like a Trapsin, Windy Druid, Javazon, Zealot, Shockadin, etc. etc. ad nauseam. That way, you have a character that can be effective even with poor gear that can then turn around and get good gear for your Avenger/Vindicator/Auradin if you wish. That was my point.

Oh, I absolutely agree. The Avenger is very gear dependent and a total mana hog, and has poor crowd control. He's great for party play, though.

For the last time, I have nothing against Summonancers. The poster I was responding to specifically wanted a comparison between Venomancers and Osteomancers. That is why my post didn't mention Summoners, not because I don't think the build is any good. Obviously summoners are great now that they fixed Raise Skeleton. Furthermore, every Necromancer has a way of beating Physical immunes built-in, so not even those will stop their clacking army. So I agree with you.

I was merely responding to your comments on your lack of knowledge on the current state of D2's economy, and making a recommendation for a build that's really worked for me.

A summoner is probably the best build for a newer player - you'll be effective from level 1 all the way up. But the playstyle can be boring. It boils down to "Curse monsters, wait, replenish army, move on." You don't even have to move during combat most of the time, unless you're up against something that can shoot past your front line like Gloams... and even then you're relegated to just dodging while your army does the dirty work. Once you get Enigma and can gather up your minions with a click it becomes even more autopilot.

Exploding corpses is very, very fun. Also, collecting sweet monsters to animate as undead. I like trying to round out my front lines with high damage hitters, or things with stun. I dunno, I'm constantly throwing up amp damage, blowing bodies apart, and keeping an eye out for good corpses (like minions of aggressive monster types).

To get high runes with gems, trade them en masse, sweetened with mid runes and even items. Someone will want them for cubing, it's just a matter of finding a buyer and being patient. It isn't "stupidity" either; it's economics. If aperson can trade one Jah rune and outfit three other characters with the proceeds, chances are he will, because those three other characters can then find more runes for him, and he won't get bored playing.

If you approach trading with that mindset, you'll always find a buyer.

I just don't like muling all the time. I also use my pgems for rerolling grand charms, so tend to not hang onto them. I only see games offering to trade their pgems away, never games where people want them. I dunno. I don't mess around with trading that much, because it's sort of a chore.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 12:56 PM

I was only mentioning rune words that used runes you could find in normal. Grinding normal CAN get you significant improvements to gear that might even last you in Hell, especially if you tag along on a Chaos Sanctuary run and grab monarchs or 4 socket long swords, or a good two socket helm (for that rune word that takes sol and gives +1 all skills).

While true, Grinding Normal is no fun for most people. Once you hit 50+ you're killing Diablo and Meph in a few hits, and taking close to no damage yourself, for very little reward (aside from the socketeds you mentioned.) Sure you CAN use your gems and runes and cube up to higher ones, but this is very time consuming as well.

I was merely responding to your comments on your lack of knowledge on the current state of D2's economy, and making a recommendation for a build that's really worked for me.

I may be rusty on the economy (e.g. what a Shael can buy you), but I know my builds. 1.12 didn't change any of the skills or synergy from 1.11, after all. :smallamused:

At least, I know builds for the classes I like. Don't ask me anything about Shifters, Barbarians of any stripe, or Clawsins.

Exploding corpses is very, very fun. Also, collecting sweet monsters to animate as undead. I like trying to round out my front lines with high damage hitters, or things with stun. I dunno, I'm constantly throwing up amp damage, blowing bodies apart, and keeping an eye out for good corpses (like minions of aggressive monster types).

Revives can be fun, but the poor AI and low duration make them pretty inferior to skeletons most of the time. Luckily it only needs 1 point to be good.

CE is great, except it runs counter to what summoners want to do. All it takes is to run into a bad spot like a battery of Gloams, squadron of bone fetishes or those LE beetles in Act 2 and suddenly you're going to wish you left some corpses in your wake to go back and recreate your army from. Once you get Enigma that shouldn't be a problem hopefully.

I just don't like muling all the time. I also use my pgems for rerolling grand charms, so tend to not hang onto them. I only see games offering to trade their pgems away, never games where people want them. I dunno. I don't mess around with trading that much, because it's sort of a chore.

And that's your prerogative, nothing wrong with that :smallsmile: For me, trading is a great aspect of the game because I can get rid of something I don't need for something I do. Why waste time rerolling a Zon javelin charm umpteen times when I can just swap it for the bone charm I really wanted? And look at all the gems I saved, which I can then put to good use crafting, or trading for jewels.

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 01:10 PM

In my opinion, that was a failing of D1 though - that the biggest source of fear was evoked not through atmosphere, but poor design. (The same way early Resident Evils became scarier when you ran out of typewriter ribbons.) Worse, most deaths online were due to lag and hackers rather than actual difficulty. I remember vividly being PKed, having a favorite staff looted from me, and then joining a game with a so-called "bounty hunter." I gave him the username of my attacker, and sure enough an hour later he returned with my assailant's ear. It was a very surreal experience. I remember having such incongruous thoughts as "maybe MAN is the true devil here"; pretty deep stuff for a 15-year old.

But I digress :smallsmile: Yes, I'll be avoiding pub HCs like the plague!You are right, no denying it, it is bad design. Though for me, personally, the added fear and atmosphere created by it outweighed the disadvantages. Oh, and the fact individual monsters tended to be stronger, and engaging a group of 10 monsters at once (as one routinely does in D2) was a really bad idea, surely helped with the atmosphere, too. :smallbiggrin:

I've got to agree about the music, though Act 3 had some great numbers. I disagree with you on sound though; the vocals and fx were spot on for me. From the Smith's booming "I'll make weapons from your BONES!" to the Countess' sultry "Care for a bloodbath?" and the Summoner's tinkling laugh just before his Glacial Spike spam. Not to mention nervously looking over my shoulder every time I heard fetishes jabbering on Hell, and even laughing at the Fallen One's "Rakanishu!" in Act 1.Sorry, I expressed myself poorly there. With "sounds" I meant those background sounds like laughter, moaning, weeping etc., that added so much to D1's atmosphere. I guess those might be considered part of the music though. The sounds the monsters themselves make in the game are perfectly fine in D2.

Interesting! Got a link?Hmmm... yeah, found it, though apparently firstly I mixed something up, and this was not meant to be used for the Wilderness after all (it doesn't say where exactly it was meant to be used), and secondly memory seems to have made this better than it actually was. Anyway, this (http://ingame.ingame.de/filebase/index.php/?action=download&fid=1354&cid=334) (linked directly to the download).
And while we're at it, this (http://ingame.ingame.de/filebase/index.php/?action=download&fid=1361&cid=334) was meant to be used for Mephisto.
And this (http://ingame.ingame.de/filebase/index.php/?action=download&fid=1364&cid=334) was not meant to be used anywhere in particular, but is incredibly hilarious (Blizzard's official "Greetings - The Cain Rap"). :smallbiggrin:

But the playstyle can be boring. It boils down to "Curse monsters, wait, replenish army, move on." You don't even have to move during combat most of the time, unless you're up against something that can shoot past your front line like Gloams... and even then you're relegated to just dodging while your army does the dirty work.This would be why I never even managed to finish the game in Normal with a Necromancer. I've long lost count of the Pallies and Sorcs I've taken through Hell, there were plenty of Amazons, Druids, the occasional Barb... but Necros always bored me into playing a different character long before I got to Baal for the first time.

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 01:18 PM

While true, Grinding Normal is no fun for most people. Once you hit 50+ you're killing Diablo and Meph in a few hits, and taking close to no damage yourself, for very little reward (aside from the socketeds you mentioned.) Sure you CAN use your gems and runes and cube up to higher ones, but this is very time consuming as well.[quote]

Well, you have to do it if you start from scratch, and there ARE rewards- original mf gear, and Baal drops exceptional uniques, like string of ears.

[quote]Revives can be fun, but the poor AI and low duration make them pretty inferior to skeletons most of the time. Luckily it only needs 1 point to be good.

True, but unless you have awesome gear, I find that I need to use them when I mf in hell. Pick aggressive monster types, and they work fine. And if you lose them, it's no big deal, since there are always plenty of monsters around!

CE is great, except it runs counter to what summoners want to do. All it takes is to run into a bad spot like a battery of Gloams, squadron of bone fetishes or those LE beetles in Act 2 and suddenly you're going to wish you left some corpses in your wake to go back and recreate your army from. Once you get Enigma that shouldn't be a problem hopefully.

You know, I thought this for the longest time, but it turns out to not be the case at all. In Hell, my skeletons are extremely durable (mages are mostly useless), and I think I only have level 29 mastery/raise skeleton. It takes a very long time for one or two to die. Between amp damage & CE, you can wipe most monsters out with only 3 corpses. Basically, once one corpse goes off, the rest start going off. Very rarely do I need to raise bodies- typically only when facing a physical resistant unique (stone skin, phys immune, phsyical resistant monster type), or when fighting a super unique. Fortunately, that's when you spam decrepify (with a potion, you can pretty much cast decrepify without stopping for 2 straight minutes at level 80), and then your summons take very little damage.

Skeletons are extremely durable, it's just that there damage output in later acts in Hell is low. If I had +2 skill armor, +skill rings, +skill charms, it would be fine, but I don't, so I use CE, which is a fantastic offensive ability.

A cheaper enigma is a staff of teleport (comes with 37 charges) in the offhand, or using town portals.

And that's your prerogative, nothing wrong with that :smallsmile: For me, trading is a great aspect of the game because I can get rid of something I don't need for something I do. Why waste time rerolling a Zon javelin charm umpteen times when I can just swap it for the bone charm I really wanted? And look at all the gems I saved, which I can then put to good use crafting, or trading for jewels.

Why would you reroll a +charm EVER? I'm just saying rerolling with gems is more efficient (for me) than saving them for a trade.

arguskos

2009-09-02, 01:39 PM

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 01:46 PM

You are right, no denying it, it is bad design. Though for me, personally, the added fear and atmosphere created by it outweighed the disadvantages. Oh, and the fact individual monsters tended to be stronger, and engaging a group of 10 monsters at once (as one routinely does in D2) was a really bad idea, surely helped with the atmosphere, too. :smallbiggrin:

You definitely have a point, monsters in general were much scarier in D1. I think part of it was that you couldn't run, so it was much easier to get surrounded. :smallsmile:

Hmmm... yeah, found it
*snip*

Thanks, I'll check it out after work :smallsmile:

This would be why I never even managed to finish the game in Normal with a Necromancer. I've long lost count of the Pallies and Sorcs I've taken through Hell, there were plenty of Amazons, Druids, the occasional Barb... but Necros always bored me into playing a different character long before I got to Baal for the first time.

Don't get me wrong; the playstyle I mentioned only applies to Skelemancers. Every other Necro build takes a more hands on approach, even ones that rely on the golem. Even if the sit back style of play doesn't appeal to you, Necromancers are still very rewarding. Bonemancers in particular have an extremely unique style of play, perhaps the most unique in the game, by being able to structure the battlefield as they wish with walls. I strongly suggest you try them.

Well, you have to do it if you start from scratch, and there ARE rewards- original mf gear, and Baal drops exceptional uniques, like string of ears.

You don't HAVE to, but I agree it does help.

You know, I thought this for the longest time, but it turns out to not be the case at all. In Hell, my skeletons are extremely durable (mages are mostly useless), and I think I only have level 29 mastery/raise skeleton. It takes a very long time for one or two to die. Between amp damage & CE, you can wipe most monsters out with only 3 corpses. Basically, once one corpse goes off, the rest start going off. Very rarely do I need to raise bodies- typically only when facing a physical resistant unique (stone skin, phys immune, phsyical resistant monster type), or when fighting a super unique. Fortunately, that's when you spam decrepify (with a potion, you can pretty much cast decrepify without stopping for 2 straight minutes at level 80), and then your summons take very little damage.

Skeletons are extremely durable, it's just that there damage output in later acts in Hell is low. If I had +2 skill armor, +skill rings, +skill charms, it would be fine, but I don't, so I use CE, which is a fantastic offensive ability.

Good point; don't forget that CE is nerfed HARD in Hell though, and that's before you run into physical and/or fire immunes...

I never understood the mage hate. The cold ones get annoying when they shatter people, and they have about the damage output of an act 3 merc (i.e. pathetic) but typically they're standing back with you and drawing lots of fire. That's nothing but gold right there.

One thing I enjoy about Summonancers is how well they partner with both act 1 and act 2 mercs. The one with Might is amazing with them.

A cheaper enigma is a staff of teleport (comes with 37 charges) in the offhand, or using town portals.

I hadn't forgotten that, though it does break flow to use the portal, and your skeletons get weaker while you switch weapons. Still, Naj's Puzzler is a fun secondary for that reason :smallsmile:

Why would you reroll a +charm EVER? I'm just saying rerolling with gems is more efficient (for me) than saving them for a trade.

Well you might get stuck with a charm that's nigh untradeable, like Defensive Auras, Passive Skills or Curses. Since you know the charm has a high enough iLvl to reroll into something useful, its worth a few gems to take the chance.

EDIT:

Eh. excuse me. I just have a question. Are there any good Elementalist Druid builds I can check out, point by point? I don't play them much, and wanted to give it a shot this run through. Any advice? (Note: Due to a loathing of gamershumans in general, I don't play online. Ever. Just a note.)

Elemental? As in Fire, Wind, or both?

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 01:49 PM

Eh. excuse me. I just have a question. Are there any good Elementalist Druid builds I can check out, point by point? I don't play them much, and wanted to give it a shot this run through. Any advice? (Note: Due to a loathing of gamershumans in general, I don't play online. Ever. Just a note.)

I prefer wind druids over fire druids. Wind druids are quite solid, with high damage output, good utility skills, and low mana costs.

For damage skills you want to max the following: cyclone armor, twister, tornado, hurricane.

Cyclone armor is awesome because it means resistances are now far less important. You won't die in two elemental based attacks. Great utility skills.

The rest of your points you put into the summon tree. I've never gotten anything out of the bear- it dies very quickly in my experience. Definitely put at least one point in oak spirit (the other spirits are a waste). I plan on maxing oak spirit on my wind druid.

Hurricane does cold damage to everything around you, only uses up 40 mana on casting, and lasts up to 45 seconds. Tornado does physical damage, is hard to aim, but only costs 10 mana, has no cooldown, moves pretty far, and can do a lot of damage.

The biggest problem with wind druids is the fact that they are relatively close range. If you can't kill it because it's cold immune (like a moon lord) with hurricane, you have to spam the hard to aim tornado into its face. Also, you don't get any damaging skills until tornado at level... 24?

Twister can be useful with its mircostun, but it has low damage.

Armageddon is pretty cool looking, but the damage is kinda meh, due to the way it works.

Fire druids have more skills to max for damage, which means fewer utility spells, and all the fire spells have cooldowns (I think). However, they are far easy to play before level 30, as you start maxing firestorm immediately (I think, you should check to see if that is needed as a synergy for anything). However, fissure is a good AoE ability, molten boulder can be useful in pushing dangerous things away from you, and volcano is high single target damage to a static enemy (like a boss tanking your pet). Fire druids also benefit from having some skills do physical damage.

Amiria

2009-09-02, 01:50 PM

Myr: you forgot to mention the paladin runeword I posted, Principle, which is exceedingly cheap for what it does. Gul, the most expensive rune in the recipe, is not an HR (HRs start at Vex.)

Mal and Ist are usually traded as HR, no problem getting i.e. a Jah, Vex or Ber for one of those. Gul isn't used in good runewords and is roughly equivalent of Um in trading. Sometimes people (including me) rather cube up 2 Gul to Vex instead of trading them.

Sur and Lo are HR that are worth a bit more (~HR + Pul), whereas Cham and Zod are worth a bit less (~Um).

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 01:58 PM

Eh. excuse me. I just have a question. Are there any good Elementalist Druid builds I can check out, point by point? I don't play them much, and wanted to give it a shot this run through. Any advice? (Note: Due to a loathing of gamershumans in general, I don't play online. Ever. Just a note.)Pretty much all druids I played were shifters, so I'll leave the answer to this to somebody else. :smallredface:
Just one thing - if you go for a windy druid, don't do it if you do not have either somebody to carry you or are going to be a summoner/wind hybrid. I once went for a pure wind build... and never before and never after that did I play a build that needed so long to kick in and was so helpless before that. It was quite frustrating.

You definitely have a point, monsters in general were much scarier in D1. I think part of it was that you couldn't run, so it was much easier to get surrounded. :smallsmile:Yeah, that, and them being much better at stunlocking one (not sure whether this was due to their chance to hit, their damage, or the requirements to be stunlocked being different, but they were better at it). Plus, if one was hit while trying to run away, the hit transported one back to the field where one was standing before.

Thanks, I'll check it out after work :smallsmile:After I spoke so highly of it before, you are in for a major disappointment (my memory betrayed me rather badly there), but I hope you can enjoy it nonetheless. :smallredface:
And at least the Cain rap is great. :smallbiggrin:

Don't get me wrong; the playstyle I mentioned only applies to Skelemancers. Every other Necro build takes a more hands on approach, even ones that rely on the golem. Even if the sit back style of play doesn't appeal to you, Necromancers are still very rewarding. Bonemancers in particular have an extremely unique style of play, perhaps the most unique in the game, by being able to structure the battlefield as they wish with walls. I strongly suggest you try them.Yeah, that's quite true (though they can be annoying in bigger). I think I will go for a Bonemancer at some point in the future indeed.

One thing I enjoy about Summonancers is how well they partner with both act 1 and act 2 mercs. The one with Might is amazing with them.The one with Blessed Aim is surprisingly effective on them, too. Not as much as as the one with Might, but not that much less, either. It's something one can keep in mind if one is playing in a party.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 02:06 PM

Fire Druid guide: Here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/49218)

Wind Druid Guide: Here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/43490)

You can hybrid if you really want to, but your damage will be awful. Better to just go Wind since you get two elements built in (Cold and Physical) instead of just one (Fire.)

Fire can do SIGNIFICANT damage more reliably (Fissure, IIRC, can do around 15k if the enemy stays in it for the duration) but Acts 1 and 4 will be a pain with all the fire immunes.

Mal and Ist are usually traded as HR, no problem getting i.e. a Jah, Vex or Ber for one of those. Gul isn't used in good runewords and is roughly equivalent of Um in trading. Sometimes people (including me) rather cube up 2 Gul to Vex instead of trading them.

Sur and Lo are HR that are worth a bit more (~HR + Pul), whereas Cham and Zod are worth a bit less (~Um).

Right, so like I said, Gul is quite easy to obtain, and Principle is a great alternative to Vipermagi and waiting for Enigma for an offensive caster Paladin.

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 02:11 PM

Huh, so there isn't any physical damage on the fire side of things. Bummer!

[edit]
I can't find anything on Arreat Summit suggesting a nerf to CE in Hell. It certainly does less, due to all the fire/physical resistances, but I am unaware of any CE specific nerf.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 02:29 PM

Huh, so there isn't any physical damage on the fire side of things. Bummer!

There is an alternative, going shifter with the Fire Claws Bear form synergy. The Physical damage will be boosted from points in Werebear, the Fire damage gets massive boosts from Armageddon, and you get plenty of AR. You'll do less pure fire damage from the elemental line though.

You can also go rabies wolf with the Poison Creeper synergy, that's a decent build as well (Poison/Physical.)

[edit]
I can't find anything on Arreat Summit suggesting a nerf to CE in Hell. It certainly does less, due to all the fire/physical resistances, but I am unaware of any CE specific nerf.

No, nothing specific, just the global 50% physical resistance in Hell. Many mobs are fire resistant, and whole packs are fire immune or physical immune. So CE loses steam rapidly compared to Nightmare. That's all I meant.

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 02:43 PM

There is an alternative, going shifter with the Fire Claws Bear form synergy. The Physical damage will be boosted from points in Werebear, the Fire damage gets massive boosts from Armageddon, and you get plenty of AR. You'll do less pure fire damage from the elemental line though.

You can also go rabies wolf with the Poison Creeper synergy, that's a decent build as well (Poison/Physical.)

I'm not sure, but I *heard* the rabies wolf got a nerf somewhere between 1,10 & whatever patch this is now. I've always been underwhelmed by the druid shifting. You lose a lot of attack speed in morph.

No, nothing specific, just the global 50% physical resistance in Hell. Many mobs are fire resistant, and whole packs are fire immune or physical immune. So CE loses steam rapidly compared to Nightmare. That's all I meant.

That's why you have to use a lot of amplify damage. I resisted maxing it for a long time, but having an enormous, radius really makes mircoing easier, and increases the number of enemies that get splashed. I also spend less time amping and more time blowing stuff up. But yeah, it certainly is much less magical in Hell, but no less crucial.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 03:07 PM

I'm not sure, but I *heard* the rabies wolf got a nerf somewhere between 1,10 & whatever patch this is now. I've always been underwhelmed by the druid shifting. You lose a lot of attack speed in morph.

Well, Bears are like Mace Barbs... IAS isn't a huge concern for them. They're definitely much more bursty.

Wolves have plenty of attack speed. A Fury WW can even keep up with a Zealot or Clawsin in laying down the beats. They have lots of other disadvantages though.

That's why you have to use a lot of amplify damage. I resisted maxing it for a long time, but having an enormous, radius really makes mircoing easier, and increases the number of enemies that get splashed. I also spend less time amping and more time blowing stuff up. But yeah, it certainly is much less magical in Hell, but no less crucial.

Amp never needs more than one point with gear. Certainly it doesn't need to be maxed. If you want it to cover a wider spread, just alternate spamming it and CE.

I agree with you completely on Amp's usefulness. Amp has a curious effect in Hell, actually tripling what your CE damage output would have been without it. (From +50% to -50% physical resistance, thus a 2k base physical damage CE goes from 1k without amp to 3k with it in Hell.) But compared to Nightmare, where that same CE would have done 4k physical and Hell has monsters with MUCH higher HP, it still ends up being a loss.

arguskos

2009-09-02, 03:27 PM

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 03:45 PM

In normal it doesn't matter. The rogue will survive a bit better since she hangs back with you.

In Nightmare you will want a freeze merc, to slow down enemies and let them get swallowed in your flames more easily. You can also then work towards gathering the gear to put Infinity on him, which will more than double your damage output, or Insight, which will turn him into a walking battery for you and your party. (Insight is extremely cheap as well - Ral Tir Tal Sol.)

Celesyne

2009-09-02, 04:37 PM

wow, i had forgotten how long it takes to move along in the story with a character that is still leveling to get skills. Act 1 seems to drag on forever, and im only just now looking for Cain.

EDIT: Spelling, cause I'm a moron

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 04:38 PM

wow, i had forgotten how long it takes to move along in the story with a character that is still leveling to get skills. Act 1 seems to dragon forecer, and im only just now looking for Cain.

It took me a long time to figure this out, but in act 1, the trails lead to where you want to go (each zone, Den of Evil, the Graveyard).

Celesyne

2009-09-02, 05:55 PM

Guancyto

2009-09-02, 06:05 PM

Winterwind

2009-09-02, 06:18 PM

How exp-rich are Baal runs (Normal and otherwise), anyway? I've been thinking of picking up this game again for lulz, and I usually ran around killing zones to level and progressing linearly.

It was very slow, and I think I hit level 30 in Act 2 Nightmare. Of course, that was before the expansion...If you do Baalruns in public games with 8 players (I haven't checked in a long while, but they used to be super-easy to find, and I don't think this will have changed), you'd gain about one level per run on Normal. It would slow down in the 40ies, and slow down rapidly once you hit 50.

In other words, very exp-rich.

Myrmex

2009-09-02, 06:19 PM

Fixin to head into the Countess's tower, level 10 and in meh gear, but hopefully she'll improve it.

oh, and why is it, no matter what class you play, you can find hundreds of every class specific item, except your freakin own..... I've had dozens of eagle orbs, heads, wolf masks, bone helms.. the works, but God save if I ever actually manage to get a paladin specific shield.

That is why I play online.

How exp-rich are Baal runs (Normal and otherwise), anyway? I've been thinking of picking up this game again for lulz, and I usually ran around killing zones to level and progressing linearly.

It was very slow, and I think I hit level 30 in Act 2 Nightmare. Of course, that was before the expansion...

Very. If you hit them at the optimal level, you can sometimes get 2 levels/run. They have it so bots make games, teleport down there, and kill tons of monsters, while you and 6 other people hang out and shoot the **** and gain levels. Once you get past level 80, it starts slowing down significantly, and eventually you can only gain xp from baal himself. It is by far the most efficient way to gain levels.

You have to be level 25 to gain worthwhile experience on normal baal, and it stays good until level 40. You should probably go to nightmare at level 50, then move onto hell at around 70. If you can get a rush through those acts, you can move onto whatever difficulty you want. Those levels are guidelines if you plan on doing the majority of quests yourself. There are minimum levels you need to complete a difficulty (20/40/60), unless you get bug-rushed.

If you kill baal as a quest for normal, though, you will stop seeing normal difficulty games. This makes baal runs more appealing if you still want to play through other acts to pick up quests or do stuff that's at your character and gear level.

Celesyne

2009-09-02, 06:25 PM

*note: I am online, I just dont like playing with random people, that and they tend to rush ahead and screw me by killing andariel before i can get to that point on the quest line, thus locking me in Act 1.

Curiously killed the Countess and got completely crapped loot. If I were a Javazon, I'd be in heaven, I got a gold quality ethereal Pilum that has replenishing quantity. Will stick that in the stash til later. I'm currently using 3 or 4 gold quality items, but they are all of base items, like a short sword or buckler or quilted armor, so heading towards the monastery im starting to get manhandled my decent sized groups, and the occasional extra strong/extra fast unique.

EDIT: Had a great time with the few of you that showed up, and I appreciate the help greatly. I am now level 17 and just need to kill Diablo to finish Act 4, though I'm probably about 10-15 levels away from doing it on my own.

hajo

2009-09-03, 08:32 AM

killed the Countess and got completely crapped loot. If I were a Javazon, I'd be in heaven
Just make a second char / mule. They can also be useful for magic-finding :smallsmile:

Had a great time with the few of you that showed up, and I appreciate the help greatly. I am now level 17 and just need to kill Diablo to finish Act 4, though I'm probably about 10-15 levels away from doing it on my own.

The usual fast-leveling routine goes roughly as follows:

Level 1-15: Trist runs
Level 15-20: Tomb runs (ie. going thru all 7 tombs in act 2)
Level 20-24: Cow runs
Level 24: Ancients
Level 25-45: Baal runs

Level 40: Ancients (NM)
Level 41-75: Baal runs (NM)

Level 60: Ancients (Hell)
Level 61+: Baal runs (Hell)

Before going to the next difficulty, have a look at your resistances, the gear you want to use, and their requirements (level, str, etc.).

hajo

2009-09-03, 08:43 AM

If you kill baal as a quest for normal, though, you will stop seeing normal difficulty games.

This char will not get those games of lower difficulty displayed, but of course you can still create or enter such games.
You just need to get the game-name, e.g. from a suitable chat-channel, or looking at the list of games with some other char.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 09:14 AM

*note: I am online, I just dont like playing with random people, that and they tend to rush ahead and screw me by killing andariel before i can get to that point on the quest line, thus locking me in Act 1.

As long as you create the game, you'll always be at the part of the quest-line that you need to be at.

EDIT: Had a great time with the few of you that showed up, and I appreciate the help greatly. I am now level 17 and just need to kill Diablo to finish Act 4, though I'm probably about 10-15 levels away from doing it on my own.

You should read hajo's progression; at level 17 you can survive act 4, but tombs will give more exp.

20-24: If you can't get cow runs, there's always Arcane Sanctuary.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 12:46 PM

Sorry to double-post, but I had a question that mandated a bump.

As a summoner necro, which merc should I get? Act 2 seems the obvious choice for the aura (preferably might or defiance), but then I thought of an Act V merc with Beast (axe) or an Act 1 with Faith - both runewords grant fanaticism (lvl 9 on the Beast, 12-15 on the archer.) Plus it would be a bit more unique. I'm leaning towards the rogue with the bow because she could then hang back with me behind my front line; plus, Faith has some really badass benefits besides the aura, like ITD. It also has a 10% chance of reanimating the baddie, which I'm not sure about. (She'd be stealing corpses from me! At the same time though, it would feel like having a partner in crime.)

Naturally, the merc is a vital aspect of the summoner for helping him get that first corpse in Hell.

Both runewords are, naturally, expensive.

Beast: Ber + Tir + Um + Mal + Lum
Faith: Ohm + Jah + Lem + Eld (Ladder Only)

Diabolicals, your thoughts?

Winterwind

2009-09-03, 01:08 PM

I think I'd go with the archer. Not only because of the higher Fanaticism, but also because of her Inner Sight, which should synergize well with the skeletons, as one of the major bumps in the skeletons' damage output is their relatively poor Attack rating.

Amiria

2009-09-03, 01:35 PM

If you need a base for a merc Faith I can give you a 4os Crusader Bow. Same average damage as Hydra Bow (moar min, less max).

US East Ladder Softcore of course.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 01:55 PM

If you need a base for a merc Faith I can give you a 4os Crusader Bow. Same average damage as Hydra Bow (moar min, less max).

US East Ladder Softcore of course.

That would be fantastic, but the build is just in the planning stages for now. I am, however, suitably amazed and humbled by your generosity. :smallsmile:

It just occurred to me that I have yet to actually get an assassin, barbarian and amazon to high levels, too, so when I do get back into the game in earnest it will probably be one of those.

nooblade

2009-09-03, 02:10 PM

Legoshrimp

2009-09-03, 03:46 PM

Not sure how advisable this is, but i always liked an act 2 merc (dont remember which one) and insight.

Amiria

2009-09-03, 03:59 PM

You liked the Holy Freeze merc, just like me. :smallbiggrin: At least when we both played our Lightning Sorceresses.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 04:13 PM

Skeletons have fine attack rating, but it's dependent on your level or something like that. So, if you're underleveled then it may be a problem but usually they hit just fine for my purposes with no modifiers to AR. I went through Hell with a Battlebranch in a Might merc's hands so you should do fine with whatever you pick. Rogues have another bonus in not dying when they're cursed by Iron Maiden (I wish I could just curse my own merc with something else!). But I guess if your skellies are hit by IM too, then you're out of commission for a bit anyway.

Skeletons have nice AR, but they are far from the cap. So a Fanaticism aura can only be a good thing for them, and adding the damage speed to that effectively doubles the damage of effect of the aura at least. It's unlikely that your party members will be complaining either :smallsmile:

Increasing AR is usually an interesting way to try and tweak damage output, but I like it better when there's an overwhelming damage attack involved like Berserk or Charge.

Well, AR is essential for all physical melee, but you're right in that it matters more for big bursty attacks like Charge, Dragon Flight and Impale that leave you in a bad spot when they miss. (Especially if you're depending on the leech from said attacks to help you survive a crowd.)

Not sure how advisable this is, but i always liked an act 2 merc (dont remember which one) and insight.

Insight is amazing, but unnecessary for a summoner. It's the best for a bone/poison necro though, especially on a freeze merc.

nooblade

2009-09-03, 09:13 PM

Skeletons have nice AR, but they are far from the cap. So a Fanaticism aura can only be a good thing for them, and adding the damage speed to that effectively doubles the damage of effect of the aura at least. It's unlikely that your party members will be complaining either :smallsmile:

... I guess I would only complain about it if I wanted to play untwinked or something.

I saw a really neat build on the amazon basin for a shopping Assassin! I want to make one (it's on their forums in the Assassin category...). You basically just use Burst of Speed to move in and out of the towns really fast and it's perfect because you can get double movespeed and then some while maintaining the right level for finding the mods you want... And if you want to go on to get stuff for crafting and then do that at the "perfect" level, then the Burst of Speed helps with trap laying too. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik

2009-09-04, 02:59 PM

I saw a really neat build on the amazon basin for a shopping Assassin! I want to make one (it's on their forums in the Assassin category...). You basically just use Burst of Speed to move in and out of the towns really fast and it's perfect because you can get double movespeed and then some while maintaining the right level for finding the mods you want... And if you want to go on to get stuff for crafting and then do that at the "perfect" level, then the Burst of Speed helps with trap laying too. :smallbiggrin:

Hammerdins already max Vigor, so they can move just as fast in town for zero mana even with poor boots. Outside they have Charge and Teleport from Enigma, so they are the kings of mobility currently. (And... well... everything else :smallsigh:)

Wonky builds I've wanted to try:
Singer Barb (The Bard)
Spearazon (Passivezon with a spear skill, maybe two)
Enchantress (Maybe with Orb as backup?)
Beastbrother (Pure summoner druid with no shifting or elemental skills.)
Monk (Zealadin with Staff)

Has anyone tried any of these?

Dallas-Dakota

2009-09-04, 03:51 PM

Enchantress is quite a common build in HC, if I remember correctly.

Back in my time, most HC games were Enchant games...For some reason I seemingly can't remember...

Singer Barb is a build out there, it's been there for some time now. But it's not often used, but don't rely on these two old brainfarts or where they farting brains..

nooblade

2009-09-04, 05:10 PM

The problem with doing all your shopping with a Hammerdin or something though is that you don't move fast at some levels you'd want to move fast at. For example, you can get nice staves for Leaf and Memory (AND Memory!) by being in act 3 at level 17. Also the lack of some magic mods makes things cheaper if you want to buy a different class' stick. Burst of Speed is available at level 6.

UGNG has a Singer. Spearazons are semi-popular over at theamazonbasin, with another variant within them, the Fearazon. As DD said, almost everyone and their mom has made an Enchantress. Summoner Druids are less popular then Summoner Necromancers, but there's still a following. Usually they'll use Shockwave too for mass stunning.

As for a Paladin with a staff... Charge is much better. Charge gets buggy when a block occurs so a two-hander is nice and having low Strength and high damage on an Elite, low requirement weapon is great for skills that really load on damage like Berserk and Charge, therefore, use a staff. Because of the knockback with Charge, you can also attack very quickly. One of my favorite builds, but a bit of a chore for bosses unless you have some great backup plan (Zeal + crushing blow or something from equipment).

Low strength Paladins going for Zeal would rather use a wand if not a Phase Blade (also low Strength). Holy shield shouldn't be skipped on a whim IMHO.

Myrmex

2009-09-07, 01:53 AM

Hey, anyone know a source that will tell me what monsters can drop what items?

Also, anyone know what runes drop from forge & countess in the various difficulties?

Myrmex

2009-09-07, 01:57 AM

Actually, I already knew about the "lolfireimmune" thing, and decided to go with Poison Creepers and Firestorm for now.

If it's not pretty clear, I am going Fire, since the wind spells aren't impressing me much, and the shifting is boring to me. I decided on Fire because I like watching it melt faces, which makes me laugh. :smallamused:

Thanks for the aid folks. What merc do ya'll suggest overall? I'm in Act 1 atm, so durhurhur, it's the Rogue chick, but should I keep her or drop her for the spearman in Act 2?

I started making a wind druid. It's level 66, and most of the wind skills are close to maxed. Level 27 hurricane does about 1200 cold damage, and level 27 tornado does around 2300 physical damage. Level 27 cyclone armor absorbs around... 2k? elemental damage.

The best part is being able to run and damage adjacent enemies (in normal and nm, they die). It's pretty weak in hell, but that's because it's under geared and not leveled up all the way. Also has ~100 unspent stat points, so low block/hp. And because every character I've made is weak in hell.

hajo

2009-09-07, 07:02 AM

anyone know a source that will tell me what monsters can drop what items?
Get any recent (later than 1.10) FAQ about MF (aka. magic-finding), e.g.:
* gamefaqs.com (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/370600.html) - Magic Find Mechanics Guide (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/55871)
* TheAmazonBasin - Nightmare MFing (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=79292)
* Guide to Untwinked, Single-pass, early game Magic Finding (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=660255)
* lurkerlounge.com (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/blogcategory/69/63/) - Rare/Imbue Calculator (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/view/831/117)

Basically, you need a char that can kill lots of monsters fast.
Equip him/her with as many MF-items as possible, without loosing too much killspeed/safety.
Go hunting, NM act 3 and up...

what runes drop from forge & countess in the various difficulties?
Same sources, any guide/FAQ about runes should have that info:
* Hell countess; what runes can drop and percentages (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=40696)
* The Counteress, A "guide" for efficient/safe rune farming (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=81676)
* diablowiki.net (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Main_Page) - Runes (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Runes) + Rune hunting (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_Hunting)
* Cube/Rune FAQ (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/28151) (good info, but does not cover your question)

Katana_Geldar

2009-09-07, 07:24 AM

Just noticed this thread, it's been ages since I played Diablo II but I was usually a Paladin or a pure Martial Arts assassin.

The fact that the Pally could shield-bash has had me looking for it in tabletop RP ever since.

Myrmex

2009-09-07, 12:11 PM

Get any recent (later than 1.10) FAQ about MF (aka. magic-finding), e.g.:
* gamefaqs.com (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/370600.html) - Magic Find Mechanics Guide (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/55871)
* TheAmazonBasin - Nightmare MFing (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=79292)
* Guide to Untwinked, Single-pass, early game Magic Finding (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=660255)
* lurkerlounge.com (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/blogcategory/69/63/) - Rare/Imbue Calculator (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/view/831/117)

Basically, you need a char that can kill lots of monsters fast.
Equip him/her with as many MF-items as possible, without loosing too much killspeed/safety.
Go hunting, NM act 3 and up...

Same sources, any guide/FAQ about runes should have that info:
* Hell countess; what runes can drop and percentages (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=40696)
* The Counteress, A "guide" for efficient/safe rune farming (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=81676)
* diablowiki.net (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Main_Page) - Runes (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Runes) + Rune hunting (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_Hunting)
* Cube/Rune FAQ (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/370600/28151) (good info, but does not cover your question)

Thanks much.

hajo

2009-09-07, 05:25 PM

what runes drop from forge & countess in the various difficulties?
I looked a bit more closely at some of those FAQs, and found in Rune hunting (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_Hunting) :

The Countess .. runes she can drop vary by difficulty level:
* Normal: El (r01) - Ral (r08).
* Nightmare: El (r01) - Io/Ko (r18); above Io (r16) is much rarer.
* Hell: El (r01) - Ist/Lo (r28); above Ist (r26) is much rarer.
The Countess has better odds to drop a higher level rune the first time a player kills her on Nightmare or Hell difficulties .. This is reflected in the different odds for Io/Ko and Ist/Lo listed above.

The Hellforge .. four gems and one rune drop .. randomly from the following possibilities:
* Normal: El (r01) - Amn (r11).
* Nightmare: Sol (r12) - Um (r22).
* Hell: Hel (r15) - Gul (r25).
The lower level runes are not more common.
The odds for Hel or Gul are identical on Hell, 1/11 for each.

Also recommanded on this topic: Rune Finder Guide by Urlik (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_Finder_Guide_by_Urlik)

Myrmex

2009-09-08, 12:00 PM

I must have ADD. I can't play a single character for very long.

Any of you guys ever try building a sacrifice pally? I'm working on one, and it looks like I'll need 24% life steal in hell. What would be the cheapest way of accomplishing that (ie, using the fewest body slots)?

Optimystik

2009-09-08, 12:14 PM

I must have ADD. I can't play a single character for very long.

I know the feeling - it strikes me in every RPG I play :smallsigh:

In WoW I learned a term for people like us - "alt-oholics."

For your question, I have no idea; leech in hell being as gimed as it is, I never bothered trying.

Myrmex

2009-09-08, 01:23 PM

I know the feeling - it strikes me in every RPG I play :smallsigh:

In WoW I learned a term for people like us - "alt-oholics."

For your question, I have no idea; leech in hell being as gimed as it is, I never bothered trying.

I'm thinking string, steal skull, and two leech rings should do it. Redemption is going to get maxed, so as long as I kill things, I will be getting HP back. 24% leech is the break even point in hell (if I did my math right).

The damage output from this guys is going to be incredible.

Btw, I am building a psn necro, and it is a pain. I have hilariously high damage poison dagger, but am very squishy. By the time I get a curse out, monsters are already on top of me. I think with an insight merc & golem out, though, it will be less of a problem.

I found Blackbog's Sharp, which is an exceptional dagger that has +5 psn dagger, +4 psn explosion, and +4 psn nova. It's pretty sweet.

Do you know if items still keep their skill adjustments when you turn them into runewords? I have a 2 socket wand with +3 bone spear that I want to turn into White. That'll get another +3 to bone spear, yes?

Krytha

2009-09-08, 01:34 PM

I'm thinking string, steal skull, and two leech rings should do it. Redemption is going to get maxed, so as long as I kill things, I will be getting HP back. 24% leech is the break even point in hell (if I did my math right).

The damage output from this guys is going to be incredible.

Btw, I am building a psn necro, and it is a pain. I have hilariously high damage poison dagger, but am very squishy. By the time I get a curse out, monsters are already on top of me. I think with an insight merc & golem out, though, it will be less of a problem.

I found Blackbog's Sharp, which is an exceptional dagger that has +5 psn dagger, +4 psn explosion, and +4 psn nova. It's pretty sweet.

Do you know if items still keep their skill adjustments when you turn them into runewords? I have a 2 socket wand with +3 bone spear that I want to turn into White. That'll get another +3 to bone spear, yes?

Yeah.

Did anyone go to PAX last weekend and play D3? I did.. and the graphics and gameplay were pretty great. I actually liked Starcraft 2 better though..

nooblade

2009-09-08, 02:19 PM

Nah, not interested in D3 much yet, wake me up when it's released.

I'm thinking string, steal skull, and two leech rings should do it. Redemption is going to get maxed, so as long as I kill things, I will be getting HP back. 24% leech is the break even point in hell (if I did my math right).

The damage output from this guys is going to be incredible.It would be a rough build... Monsters have way more hitpoints than most characters. The damage to self applies before you get some back due to leech so watch if you're low on current HP. You could even kill yourself outright if you had, say, 500 HP and your attack did something between 2000-3000. Also you'll have trouble with the various monsters that you can't leech from or would get reduced leech from. Consider getting Dracul's Grasp, or, even better, an allied Necromancer to cast life tap on things, that would let you ignore normal immunities to life leech (IIRC).

Also be careful of Amplify Damage! I don't know if that would cause you to hurt yourself more or not, and then there's the question of whether you would get hurt attacking an ampped monster or when you've got amp on yourself.

I think I saw a guide for it on the amazon basin...

Btw, I am building a psn necro, and it is a pain. I have hilariously high damage poison dagger, but am very squishy. By the time I get a curse out, monsters are already on top of me. I think with an insight merc & golem out, though, it will be less of a problem.You would have some points leftover... Investing some in Clay Golem and Golem Mastery would give you an excellent tank, and also you can just recast it whenever it's in an annoying spot or if it's dying. Clay Golem with some 60ish points into it could give a Necromancer a tank with more HP and HP regeneration than the Diablo Clone. :smallbiggrin:

Another option is Dim Vision. Pump points into it to increase the radius to something huge and then cast it at the edge of the screen to disable the AI of monsters. It doesn't work when you just cast dim at a melee monster running at you because part of the AI is already working (move to enemies) and the attacking part works alright as long you don't move back very much... Anyway, something you may have to experiment with. Also, unfortunately, useless against Champions, Unique Enhanced monsters, and Bosses, so probably not the best choice for your build.

I found Blackbog's Sharp, which is an exceptional dagger that has +5 psn dagger, +4 psn explosion, and +4 psn nova. It's pretty sweet.

Do you know if items still keep their skill adjustments when you turn them into runewords? I have a 2 socket wand with +3 bone spear that I want to turn into White. That'll get another +3 to bone spear, yes?Yeah, runewords keep those mods. I did that all the time with Leaf and Fireball or Enchant.

Myrmex

2009-09-08, 02:27 PM

Nah, not interested in D3 much yet, wake me up when it's released.

It would be a rough build... Monsters have way more hitpoints than most characters. The damage to self applies before you get some back due to leech so watch if you're low on current HP. You could even kill yourself outright if you had, say, 500 HP and your attack did something between 2000-3000. Also you'll have trouble with the various monsters that you can't leech from or would get reduced leech from. Consider getting Dracul's Grasp, or, even better, an allied Necromancer to cast life tap on things, that would let you ignore normal immunities to life leech (IIRC).

Are you sure? Arreat Summit seems to imply that if you have 8% (effective) leech, you cancel the two out.

For monsters immune to leech, putting up Redemption should help. It's 240 HP/ swing with 3k damage, though. That could REALLY hurt.

Optimystik

2009-09-08, 02:51 PM

Yeah.

Did anyone go to PAX last weekend and play D3? I did.. and the graphics and gameplay were pretty great. I actually liked Starcraft 2 better though..

Haven't played it, but I am salivating over it. I need to see the other classes first though, none have really leaped out at me besides the monk, and I have a feeling that he and the wizard will be a dime a dozen come release.

Also be careful of Amplify Damage! I don't know if that would cause you to hurt yourself more or not, and then there's the question of whether you would get hurt attacking an ampped monster or when you've got amp on yourself.

I'd be far more worried about Iron Maiden with that build :smalleek:

You would have some points leftover... Investing some in Clay Golem and Golem Mastery would give you an excellent tank, and also you can just recast it whenever it's in an annoying spot or if it's dying. Clay Golem with some 60ish points into it could give a Necromancer a tank with more HP and HP regeneration than the Diablo Clone. :smallbiggrin:

For a venomancer, I recommend the Fire Golem as an alternative. You'll be LR-ing every baddie you run into anyway, so its fire burst and aura can actually do some decent damage. It can also finish off low-HP victims in PvP, and it's fairly unique. Finally, it heals itself with fire damage, which can be a big help in Act 4.

Clay's slow might help more, but at least you can be unique :smallsmile:

Are you sure? Arreat Summit seems to imply that if you have 8% (effective) leech, you cancel the two out.

Which is fine, but getting 8% effective leech in Hell is pretty difficult, and for a Martyr that's just to break even - you won't be getting anything back from monsters. For a melee, that's usually suicide. Compare that to the whirly-barbs and clawsins that will be leeching far more than you with less focused gear. Sacrifice is also single-target (like Vengeance) so getting surrounded can quickly put you in stun/blocklock and result in your demise.

For monsters immune to leech, putting up Redemption should help. It's 240 HP/ swing with 3k damage, though. That could REALLY hurt.

The problem with that plan is having to drop your offensive aura. Putting up Redemption during combat will seriously gimp your damage output (especially if you're using fanaticism), and damage is the whole point of playing a Martyr.

Winthur

2009-09-08, 02:57 PM

I must have ADD. I can't play a single character for very long.

Well, take THAT:
I bought Baldur's Gate when I was, I dunno, I think 8. I didn't finish it until I was 14. Why??? I would keep being unsatisfied with my characters, switching them back and forth and making new ones, never being able to decide on one type I wanted to play. I played a TON of those Candlekeep -> FAI -> Beregost -> Nashkel circles but I always erased the character figuring I want something else.

I actually got flashed by some full frontal spoilers and thus it wasn't half as enjoyable as it could be when I finished it... BUT IT WAS STILL AWESOME. What a shame... :smallfrown:

Also, I think I'm going to play a WW barbarian soon. I heard Crushing Blow does wonders for those kinds of builds...

nooblade

2009-09-08, 03:22 PM

Alright, found threads on amazonbasin... It works differently than I expected (I also thought you took 24% of your damage back for some reason!). I may want to make one too now that I've looked at these! :smalltongue:
Well, I dunno, maybe I'd stick with Charge.

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=54492
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=47807&hl=charge&st=0

The "guide" recommends a high-strength build going for high defense armors, but I'd rather just go lower strength and use a Phase Blade or something for the faster attack... Though I would miss out on having a polearm weapon with some actual range. Doing less damage per hit can't hurt IMHO when you've got a 1000% increase. Another fun one-point-wonder will be Sanctuary, because that aura will allow you to ignore resistances on Undead enemies. Keep a wand with lifetap charges on it, too. :smallsmile:

I think the main problem would be the attack you use when something is immune (unbreakable immune?) to physical damage (on something that's not undead).

Damage reduction applies to the damage you take from Sacrifice, which is pretty cool. Amplify damage could really screw you up, if applied to both yourself and the monster.

Optimystik

2009-09-09, 01:52 AM

So I finally got around to reinstalling this gem, and after a few Vista hiccups, got sucked back in for several hours of brief questing, tristram runs, and the first part of act 2.

The build I settled on was the dual-element Trapsin (which takes advantage of Fire Blast's cross-synergy with the lightning traps) since I hadn't made a high-level assassin yet. I have high hopes for her since she has yet to die, even surrounded by Radament's minions and cornered by Bloodwitch the Wild. Maybe I can try this one out in hardcore...

If anyone's willing to play on Normal Ladder, her name is Killswytch. I sadly can't play hardcore yet; it appears i have to beat normal first with my fresh install. :smallannoyed:

Winterwind

2009-09-09, 07:10 AM

Well, take THAT:
I bought Baldur's Gate when I was, I dunno, I think 8. I didn't finish it until I was 14. Why??? I would keep being unsatisfied with my characters, switching them back and forth and making new ones, never being able to decide on one type I wanted to play. I played a TON of those Candlekeep -> FAI -> Beregost -> Nashkel circles but I always erased the character figuring I want something else.I still haven't finished it, for pretty much this reason. :smallcool:

Well, that, and I find the city Baldur's Gate itself to be frustratingly confusing due to its size, but mostly, the former reason.

As for starting new D2 characters perpetually, I suffer from that a bit too, but for some reason it's much stronger with paladins than with the rest. I have played a fair share of different characters... but I think close to half of them may have been different builds of paladins. :smallcool:

Optimystik

2009-09-09, 09:31 AM

I still haven't finished it, for pretty much this reason. :smallcool:

Well, that, and I find the city Baldur's Gate itself to be frustratingly confusing due to its size, but mostly, the former reason.

I'd like them to finish the BG mod for NWN and NWN2. Baldur's Gate goodness + 3.x rules? Yes please!

As for starting new D2 characters perpetually, I suffer from that a bit too, but for some reason it's much stronger with paladins than with the rest. I have played a fair share of different characters... but I think close to half of them may have been different builds of paladins. :smallcool:

I did too, which is why I've vowed not to start a new paladin this time around until after I get an assassin and druid at least to nightmare. I doubt I'll stick to it, but its worth a shot :smallsmile:

What I'm really hoping is that hammerdins get the nerfbat in 1.13. The build is just way too ubiquitous for its power level. That or put more magic immunes and magic resist/absorb gear in the game so the other builds have a chance at competing with them in both PvE and PvP.

Myrmex

2009-09-09, 12:56 PM

Re: phys immunes & the sacrifice pally

I am going to put gavel of pain on the off weapon slot & use zeal. Gavel has a amp damage proc, which removes phys immune.

u-gotNOgame

2009-09-09, 03:29 PM

The reason it requires 24% leach to even out is because in Hell Difficulty leach effeciency is cut to 1/3. So that means you need 8*3 or 24% leach. Likewise in NM when its 1/2 you need 16% leach to reach equilibrium. But really you want over that number because a good deal of melee durability comes from leach. Worse then PI's however are unleachables, becaues a PI monster takes no damage from you which means that none gets returned (I think, don't quote me on it)... skeletons and other fleshless beings take physical damage (sometimes) but you cannot leach from them, making them much more dangerous then your average PI.

-UGNG

Celesyne

2009-09-09, 06:42 PM

Ok, my Altaholicism has gotten the best of me, and im dorking around with an Assassin. First off, Whats a Clawsin i read about but can never find a guide for, and whats a good hardy close combat build for an assassin?

nooblade

2009-09-09, 08:37 PM

Huh. Can't you just get a wand with Amplify Damage charges on it? I know you can get staves with Teleport charges on them (read about that a few months ago). :smallbiggrin:

Clawsin... Maybe it refers to sins who go for double claw rather than weapon (claw...)/shield? Or, more specifically, for the skill Dragon Claw? I think that if you use Dragon Claw, then the charge up skills may apply to both attacks, but I'm not sure.

Close-ranged Assassins usually use Dragon Talon with whatever equipment takes advantage of the fast attacks, Phoenix Strike/Claws of Thunder (with like 1 point of Dragon Claw and a few other things), or Tiger Strike and Dragon Tail. The last build is fun, but it only does much fire damage unfortunately... Making it a bit too useless when you reach Hell. I think everyone goes for either Shadow Warrior or Shadow Master, but I'm partial to the Warrior because you can keep Fade on her. Also, not many Assassins put more than one point into Burst of Speed because of the oddness of that particular source of Increased Attack Speed.

You can find builds for those kinds of things with Google, but I like guides from The Amazon Basin just because they're less likely to be twinked out.

Optimystik

2009-09-10, 01:40 AM

Huh. Can't you just get a wand with Amplify Damage charges on it? I know you can get staves with Teleport charges on them (read about that a few months ago). :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but the Gavel also has Amp charges in addition to the proc. (Not many, but it can be repaired.) So he'll have two ways of applying it, rather than just one with the wand.

Clawsin... Maybe it refers to sins who go for double claw rather than weapon (claw...)/shield? Or, more specifically, for the skill Dragon Claw? I think that if you use Dragon Claw, then the charge up skills may apply to both attacks, but I'm not sure.

A Clawsin is just what it sounds like - a martial arts build that focuses on claw attacks rather than kicks. (The latter is commonly called a Kicksin.)

Clawsins come in 3 main flavors:

- Tiger Clawsin, which naturally focuses on Tiger Claw's massive yet efficient damage and AR potential;
- Phoenix Striker, which uses Phoenix Strike and the associated synergies to get hefty elemental damage, and;
- The WW-sin, an *expensive* build that revolves around the Assassin-only Chaos runeword (Fal + Ohm + Um, x2... ouch) and gives them access to the barbarian's Whirlwind ability.

For all of these, you'll typically want dual claws, because you'll likely be maxing claw mastery with all 3 and therefore using the dragon claw finisher since it will have much higher AR and damage than any of the kicks. Another advantage is that weapon block operates independently of your DEX stat, so even with just the minimum dex necessary to equip your claws, you'll have a substantial block rate. The second build can get by with Claw/Shield though.

The first and third builds use Venom or Amp to get around physical immunities.

Another advantage to dual claws - weapon block can block spells (including orbs and hammers!) while shields cannot. Something to think about when planning your sin.

I think everyone goes for either Shadow Warrior or Shadow Master, but I'm partial to the Warrior because you can keep Fade on her. Also, not many Assassins put more than one point into Burst of Speed because of the oddness of that particular source of Increased Attack Speed.

Trapsins prefer Shadow Warrior because they are typically casting the same spells repeatedly, so having a duplicate able to drop those same traps for free can be handy. Martial Artists will want Shadow Master, as she will fill in the gaps in your strategy nicely (i.e. dropping traps while you claw at the enemy's front-line) rather than just mimicking what you do. She's also a lot less squishy, which matters when you're running into the enemy face-first and she's following you like a shadow tends to do.

Myrmex

2009-09-10, 02:00 AM

I tried making a clawsin, once. The level one thing that charged up and gave you tons of extra damage looked really sweet, so I maxed it. Unfortunately, making it all work is a chore. You have to hit 3 times, then let it go off on a kick or whatever, so really the damage is averaged out over 3 attacks. Another problem with the clawsin is that dual claw blocking doesn't benefit from the high dex you need to wield most claw-class weapons.

Getting just the right number of charges and then letting it go off on other abilities takes a lot of work. It's not at all the easy mode of playing other classes. You have to pay a lot of attention to left & right clicking, and changing between skills.

Don't get me wrong, assassins have a ton of really cool & powerful skills, it's just that it takes a lot of micro to make it work, and an absurd number of skill points.

Huh. Can't you just get a wand with Amplify Damage charges on it? I know you can get staves with Teleport charges on them (read about that a few months ago). :smallbiggrin:

I have two staves of teleport, actually. They're pretty sweet, but you'd be surprised how fast you go through 37 charges. They're also expensive to repair.

I'm sure you can get a wand of amp damage; but I'd rather just use the proc on my gavel. =)

Darwin

2009-09-10, 02:05 AM

I just started up a Blizzsorc on the US: East realm after reading this thread but the chatrooms on there were completely barred for people save for the occasional idler. Did I just log on at a bad time, or has D2 become deserted? :smalleek:

Amiria

2009-09-10, 08:20 AM

There is always someone in the trading chatrooms. US East Ladder Trading 1 has usually at least 8+ people sitting there, at the peak time (US East evenings) it is often filled to the maximum (40 people).

In clan chatrooms there might also be more people, but then, you might not find them and if you do they might be uncommunicative.

The trading chatrooms are all about trading, chitchat is often considered spam there. If you find someone to talk there just meet in another chatroom or game.

Our "op gitp" chatroom is often quite empty too. But you can use the .fl command to see who is online and then maybe contact that person. Or, if you feel really lonely, talk with the bot. :smalltongue:

Darwin

2009-09-10, 09:16 AM

Amiria

2009-09-10, 09:30 AM

Set a minimum level (level difference from you) in public games. Most spambots are very low level. An exception are the mydpaly spambots, who are level 90, but they aren't so numerous too overspam a game.

Best is to have a private game and whisper the password to friends to join.

Optimystik

2009-09-10, 09:31 AM

Don't get me wrong, assassins have a ton of really cool & powerful skills, it's just that it takes a lot of micro to make it work, and an absurd number of skill points.

A Tigersin is one of the simpler martial arts builds out there. TS, Dragon Claw, Claw Mastery. Everything else is optional (even Venom if you find another way to take on physical immunes, like Amp.) A Whirlysin is even easier (Max Dragon Flight and Claw Mastery, everything else is optional) but of course is reserved for the rich.

As for assassins needing a lot of micro, I take it you haven't tried a trapsin? :smallwink:

I'm sure you can get a wand of amp damage; but I'd rather just use the proc on my gavel. =)

You needn't worry; as I've said before, the gavel IS an amp wand. It has both the proc on swing, and amp charges that can be cast at will.

Amiria

2009-09-10, 09:42 AM

I prefer to have a merc with an ethereal Reaper's Toll to deal with physical immunes => 33% Decrepify proc. It doesn't break all PI like Amplify but the slowing effect makes monsters a lot less dangerous. I bought my only eth Reaper for an Um.

nooblade

2009-09-10, 03:01 PM

Trapsins prefer Shadow Warrior because they are typically casting the same spells repeatedly, so having a duplicate able to drop those same traps for free can be handy. Martial Artists will want Shadow Master, as she will fill in the gaps in your strategy nicely (i.e. dropping traps while you claw at the enemy's front-line) rather than just mimicking what you do. She's also a lot less squishy, which matters when you're running into the enemy face-first and she's following you like a shadow tends to do.

But Shadow Warriors are much more reliable because you can keep Fade on her (less squishy). Furthermore, you'll be able to control when she uses the potentially very useful Assassin skills like Cloak of Shadows and Mind Blast.

And, let's face it, low skilled and unsynergized traps aren't going to do much besides maybe a lucky corpse explosion that you could get from a claw with a +skill on it.

You want the shadow to mimic what you do because it gains a bonus when it uses skills that you have points invested into, something like a third or half of your points and then it also adds some based on the shadow skill (and it adds synergy bonuses for the equivalent amount in that skill any time after it uses that synergy skill). So, a Shadow Master's advantages are the separate (rare) equipment, some different base stats, and access to skills with 0 points on your tree, all for losing control over what skills are used (Burst of Speed rather than Fade, yuck).

Optimystik

2009-09-10, 04:25 PM

@ nooblade: You've hit on the reasons why Masters are a bad choice for Trapsins.

Martial Artists, other than Phoenix Strikers, have no synergies. If you're a Tiger Striker or a Kicksin, having a shadow that also claws and kicks is less useful than one setting traps and throwing blades offscreen.

Keeping fade on your Warrior requires you to have it selected until she casts it. A trapsin can easily do this without losing damage during a firefight (the traps are still going), but a martial artist has to waste time waiting for her shadow to cast it while only meleeing with one button.

I agree, the master does sometimes use burst of speed when she should be using fade and other minor issues, but if she dies, you can just recast her; it's not like martial artists are strapped for mana anyway. I think her other benefits make up for a few AI hiccups (as long as you aren't a trapsin or bladesin.)

nooblade

2009-09-10, 07:38 PM

Myrmex

2009-09-11, 12:03 PM

Last night was a good night. Ran Hell Andy & Meph, and a ton of uniques dropped. Got another Blackbog's Sharp, and a belt that gives +1 to all skills. Had some fun making my iron golem out of random stuff. Found that having him made from a weapon that has crushing blow on it makes him REALLY deadly. An iron golem made out of Rattlecage or Islestrike hits hard.

A Tigersin is one of the simpler martial arts builds out there. TS, Dragon Claw, Claw Mastery. Everything else is optional (even Venom if you find another way to take on physical immunes, like Amp.) A Whirlysin is even easier (Max Dragon Flight and Claw Mastery, everything else is optional) but of course is reserved for the rich.

As for assassins needing a lot of micro, I take it you haven't tried a trapsin? :smallwink:

I was speaking in particular to the clawsin. Trapsins are probably the most easymode characters out there.

Winterwind

2009-09-11, 12:11 PM

I was speaking in particular to the clawsin. Trapsins are probably the most easymode characters out there.Even more than Hammerdins? :smalleek:
...wow, I have to try this sometime, just to witness that.

Myrmex

2009-09-11, 12:32 PM

Even more than Hammerdins? :smalleek:
...wow, I have to try this sometime, just to witness that.

Yeah. Hammers take a little aiming, and having to sit still in the middle of a swarm of monsters. With a trapsin, you just throw your traps on the ground and run around with burst of speed on, and wait till everything's dead. If they are light immune, you just run past them, using cloak of shadows to make everything blind and ignore you if they are particularly persistent.

If you are fighting stuff like burning souls or diablo, or can't run around a lot, put up fade for resistance to everything, including physical (!!!).

Never having to be in harms way, ever, is probably what makes them so good, imo. Trying to be a caster & a tank is a little hard with pally (but not really, after you break certain threshold on gear).

tyckspoon

2009-09-11, 12:39 PM

Even more than Hammerdins? :smalleek:
...wow, I have to try this sometime, just to witness that.

Yeah, pretty much. Hammerdins may be more powerful, but they're also riskier in action since you have to get right next to your targets for best results. Trapsins just use Cloak of Shadows to turn off the mob's brains, drop their traps, and wait for everything to die while they stay half a screen away. If you get bored doing that you can throw in some Mind Blasts or Fire Bombs (synergizes and is synergized by pretty much everything in the Traps tree, so why not) or something.

Optimystik

2009-09-12, 02:10 PM

You think I'm inexperienced or something? When I played with the Shadow Master, those benefits weren't there. Under conditions where she would be found off-screen, a shadow minion would be chasing after monsters off-screen, not content to toss traps onto my enemies at all. Something about her AI causes her to close into hand-to-hand combat with at least half of her decisions for what to do next. The Master's saving grace is that her normal attacks (physical damage) seemed to consistently cause damage (not nearly as good as a Valk...). The ~10 point trap skills she would be using would be moot for the more significant parts of the game.

That's a problem for a trapsin, who'd rather have free traps and extra fireblasts from the Warrior. As a Clawsin, you don't care what your shadow is really doing as long as it's drawing fire.

Also, it's not about synergies. The Master is actually better with synergies than the Shadow Warrior because it will take the synergies from skills you have never puts points into, such as trap skills (so long as the shadow actually uses that skill first). That needs clarification from my last post... The point is that a Shadow Master's traps will be much worse than a skilled and synergized Trapsin's traps (unless the Assassin that made it was actually a Trapsin) for some reasons including that.

I never disputed that. A Trapsin having better traps than a Shadow Master is pretty obvious.

A shadow minion (Warriors and Masters) gets a bonus to the base skill that it uses depending on the number of points you've got in it. If you've got the versatility in damage types already, it's worthwhile having the Shadow Warrior take advantage of those numbers by using those skills more often, regardless of whether they're ranged or melee. This is why Shadow Warriors are awesome for Phoenix Strike 'Sins and should be used unless you're feeling really lazy or something.

I already made that exact point in my last post - Phoenix Strikers should use Warriors.

I've never made a Tiger Striker or Kicksin, but it sounds like having physical damage only is already a problem for the first, and nothing on the shadow minion will get the procs you're going for on the latter. Note also that you haven't summed up all the close-ranged Assassin builds, it is very feasible to make a Tanksin using Azurewrath or something (I don't care much for builds it would take some time to get the equipment to make... The game is perfectly playable without that junk.) instead of claws and charge-up skills, which may benefit from the Master more. There's Dragon Tail, which can cause huge amounts of fire damage because of the multiplication between it and Tiger Strike, which is better served by the Warrior. There are also the Fire- and Flash-Dancers, hybrids who use traps and Dragon Talon, who desperately need a solid tank and for who I would much prefer the Warrior.

For the first, Venom negates the "physical damage only" penalty, as does keeping an amp wand on switch or a merc with a decrepify proc weapon. For the second, I'm not familiar with Kicksins so I'll let someone else debate their viability. I just know they can do well in Hell, but not the how.

So in some cases I would consider taking the Master, but personally, I like the control I get over the Warrior too much now that I'm used to it. I am the type of player who wants to wring every bit of usefulness out of the things as possible. One of those bits is the ability to keep Cloak of Shadows on enemies for a longer period of time.

And I'm a player that prefers to autopilot - I like characters I don't have to micromanage as much, and the Shadow Master definitely qualifies (provided I'm not a trapsin.) Non-trapper assassin builds switch skills a lot, so using a Shadow Warrior with those means you have to be more careful. That's all I was saying.

Yeah. Hammers take a little aiming, and having to sit still in the middle of a swarm of monsters. With a trapsin, you just throw your traps on the ground and run around with burst of speed on, and wait till everything's dead. If they are light immune, you just run past them, using cloak of shadows to make everything blind and ignore you if they are particularly persistent.

Gloams are fairly easy with a decently geared trapsin. Blind them with CloS and toss fireblasts until they drop, or just go around them.

Myrmex

2009-09-12, 02:23 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot you might have firebomb leveled as a skill.

Optimystik

2009-09-13, 02:50 PM

I want to play hardcore, but only with other playgrounders so as to avoid all the asshats. If anyone's interested in rolling up some hardcore toons, by all means coordinate here.

It seems that the drop rates are better in hardcore, but I'd like to test that firsthand. I've never slain a boss in hardcore so I wouldn't know.

Also, you guys are the only people I would trust to do the "loot consent" with whereby if I die you can recover my gear :smallsmile:

Any takers, please coordinate in this thread.

u-gotNOgame

2009-09-13, 03:15 PM

Optimystik

2009-09-17, 12:54 PM

Winter and Myself are really the only two Hardcore players left in this group. We have (iirc) charecters waiting in Act 3 for the proper motivation and time to finish getting them through that particular act. As for drop rates, I wouldn't know because well... thats not why I play the game. A couple pages back Winter, Nooblade, and myself had a discussion about using self and group found gear vs gifted and otherwise obtained equipment. I wouldn't go so far as to say "don't bring any of that stuff in", but I would like it if you didn't go around and buy all your gear, because then you would just overpower us, Winter is playing a no-twink avenger, and I'm playing a very little twink Singer, not very powerful builds. We play for the fun of playing, not for "stuff".

For me, finding "stuff" IS fun. MF runs are and have always been my endgame, far moreso than PvP and Chaos-ing. I like seeing green and gold text fall at my feet after a hard fight reliably, and always will. It even adds challenge to the game, as you in most cases have to weaken your defenses and/or damage output to don MF gear, but still take out the boss.

Building an MF set is a time-consuming process of hoarding nagelrings, "of fortune" blues and charms, and slowly working your way up to that upped goldwrap and travs. The single greatest MF item, Enigma, is impossible to get without either a purchase or hours of farming for charms etc. to trade for the hrs necessary in its construction. For an MF set alone, spending the cash on it to avoid the grind is actually worth it, as it will allow you to more easily find all the HoZes, Occys, Homuns and Vipermagis you need to recoup your costs. And since MFing is generally a solo affair, you're not even disrupting anyone else's play by wearing the best gear. So I find your claim of feeling "overpowered" by something that doesn't affect you puzzling, to say the least. :smallconfused:

Having said that, in HC my focus would be different. If I were to really get into it, I'd probably buy an MF set anyway, but only to play solo. Whichever character I play with you wouldn't use any paid-for gear, so that I can get the same immersive fear existence that you guys have. What level are you two anyway, so I can catch up?

Winterwind

2009-09-17, 03:47 PM

Having said that, in HC my focus would be different. If I were to really get into it, I'd probably buy an MF set anyway, but only to play solo. Whichever character I play with you wouldn't use any paid-for gear, so that I can get the same immersive fear existence that you guys have. What level are you two anyway, so I can catch up?Not far yet, as we've been somewhat extremely infrequent in our playing lately (which we are going to change though soon, hopefully).
Right now we are somewhere in our mid-twenties, right at the entrance of Kurast.

u-gotNOgame

2009-09-17, 05:50 PM

... So I find your claim of feeling "overpowered" by something that doesn't affect you puzzling, to say the least. :smallconfused:

Thats fine as long as it stay out of our games, I myself intend to, after I hit Gaurdian, retire that particular charecter and make a new one. I would never presume to tell you what you can and can't do on your own time. I was simply stating I would rather not have you build a Hdin with loads of bought gear for our group games, should they start to exist. This is because feeling like I'm am useless is not fun for me.

As for level... I am level 23.

-UGNG

Optimystik

2009-09-17, 08:09 PM

I was simply stating I would rather not have you build a Hdin with loads of bought gear for our group games, should they start to exist. This is because feeling like I'm am useless is not fun for me.

I have no intention of doing anything like that. Better?

EDIT: I tried a hardcore summon-mancer. He killed with ease and avoided the fray nicely, so I have no doubt he'd survive, but... he was so bloody... BORING to play. '

Summon golem. Kill first mob. Raise skeleton. Wait. Raise skeleton. Wait. Raise skeleton. Wait...

I need something survivable, but a little more... hands on. Okay, a LOT more. Something that ISN'T a hammerdin. A trapsin with firebombs seems the way to go... if only I didn't already have one. Oh well, go with what works I guess. :smallsigh:

I am, of course, open to suggestions...

nosignal

2009-09-18, 04:03 AM

Strafer? Decoy and/or valk to scout/tank. Lfury against immunes as it doesnt need max synergies to be effective, charged strike for boss. I think it's charged strike anyway. Slow missiles and inner sight to taste.

I've never played Hardcore past Act One so it may be all nonsense.

Setra

2009-09-18, 05:36 AM

This is because feeling like I'm am useless is not fun for me.
And that's why my friends no longer play Diablo 2 with me...

I have an inability to purposefully weaken my character. I pre-build my characters so they WILL be hell viable, and my friends tend to spend their points on 'what sounds good at the moment', the end result is around nightmare mode they stop being useful..

By the way, does anyone want a Full IK set? I got the entire set then found I hate barbarians. It's on US East, Softcore.

Winterwind

2009-09-18, 07:41 AM

I am, of course, open to suggestions...Something that helps a lot with a party's survivability (the thing HC groups should care about first and foremost, as opposed to SC's killing speed focus) a lot is a druid shifting to a bear and using Shockwave to stun the enemies (and a maximized Oak Sage, of course).

Haven't ever played a bear-shifting druid myself (always went for wolf), so no idea how fun that is to play.

Alternately, I imagine an elemental druid with summon support would work, too, and be less boring than a summonancer due to actually using attack spells also.

And that's why my friends no longer play Diablo 2 with me...

I have an inability to purposefully weaken my character. I pre-build my characters so they WILL be hell viable, and my friends tend to spend their points on 'what sounds good at the moment', the end result is around nightmare mode they stop being useful..I wouldn't ever consider wasting skill points on useless stuff, either - I always go for some sensible build as well. As does u-gotNOgame and every other Playgrounder I've ever played with. It never even occurred to me it could be done differently. :smallbiggrin:
What we were talking about there were characters equipped with stuff they found or traded for themselves vs. characters for which high end equipment was bought with RL money, which is a quite different situation, I believe. :smallwink:

Setra

2009-09-18, 12:58 PM

I wouldn't ever consider wasting skill points on useless stuff, either - I always go for some sensible build as well. As does u-gotNOgame and every other Playgrounder I've ever played with. It never even occurred to me it could be done differently. :smallbiggrin:
What we were talking about there were characters equipped with stuff they found or traded for themselves vs. characters for which high end equipment was bought with RL money, which is a quite different situation, I believe. :smallwink:
Well either way no one likes feeling useless... :smalltongue:

How about being given free stuff? Because I pretty much don't play anymore and I have a good bit of stuff just burning a hole in my pocket..

Celesyne

2009-09-18, 05:16 PM

How good are Summoner druids with spellcasting support? or is shapeshifting the main fallback? Cause I'd totally give HC a shot with the druid (only class I haven't played).

EDIT: do you have to beat the game to make a HC character? I can't seem to find the option for it.

Winterwind

2009-09-18, 06:46 PM

How good are Summoner druids with spellcasting support? or is shapeshifting the main fallback? Cause I'd totally give HC a shot with the druid (only class I haven't played).I am not sure. Druid is the class I usually end up playing towards the end of my D2 interest cycle - after having played a whole bunch of other characters, and then I always keep making my favourite druid build (i.e., a wolf-shifter). I had only one elemental druid ever period, and never got far enough with him to judge.

Though I can tell you from that experience that I know of no other build that needs so long to kick and is so helpless until then as a summon-less wind druid. So unless one would have a party to carry one, I imagine a wind druid would pretty much be forced to get summons just in order to survive.

EDIT: do you have to beat the game to make a HC character? I can't seem to find the option for it.Yes, you have to beat in on Softcore first (I think it can be singleplayer only too, and only Normal)

Setra

2009-09-18, 07:24 PM

Though I can tell you from that experience that I know of no other build that needs so long to kick and is so helpless until then as a summon-less wind druid. So unless one would have a party to carry one, I imagine a wind druid would pretty much be forced to get summons just in order to survive.
As an experienced Wind Druid-er I can tell you the best plan is to boost strength to 70 asap (ignoring all other stats) and get a Maul, they work well with druids... They really don't need any summons, just bash brains in til you get Tornado. They also need surprisingly little Energy, once you get a level or two in Hurricane the difficulty drops drastically.

As for a summoner Druid? I've never had them work out well.. if only you could have bears AND wolves :( Well I may not have had the best build though, so I could be wrong, I never check online for builds (I make my own).

Winterwind

2009-09-18, 07:39 PM

As an experienced Wind Druid-er I can tell you the best plan is to boost strength to 70 asap (ignoring all other stats) and get a Maul, they work well with druids... They really don't need any summons, just bash brains in til you get Tornado. [/QUOTE]Mmm... I guess that might work (though neglecting Vitality in HC this much would be... a risky endeavour, to say the least :smalleek:).

They also need surprisingly little Energy, once you get a level or two in Hurricane the difficulty drops drastically.Is there any proper build apart from a few Sorc builds that gets Energy at all?

Setra

2009-09-18, 07:54 PM

Mmm... I guess that might work (though neglecting Vitality in HC this much would be... a risky endeavour, to say the least :smalleek:).

Is there any proper build apart from a few Sorc builds that gets Energy at all?
Pre-Duriel you shouldn't run into a situation where you'll really suffer from lack of vit, and by then you'll have a few levels to pump into it. Just pop potions like pills.

That depends on how good you are at finding items.. Personally? Runes and good items hate me (It was a miracle I could get ahold of the entire IK set even)

Celesyne

2009-09-18, 08:05 PM

Well, my paladin is now 24, and has killed Diablo and has the relevant wp in act 5 to do bhaal runs, now to get a bunch of levels some gear that doesnt suck, a bunch of resistances, and actually find a game that will run a 24 through the bhaal area for xp.

On a side note, I picked up a Skewer of Krinitz, and was curious (if I could acquire the runes through sheer luck) if it would be worthwhile upgrading it to the NM equivalent.

tyckspoon

2009-09-18, 11:35 PM

Well, my paladin is now 24, and has killed Diablo and has the relevant wp in act 5 to do bhaal runs, now to get a bunch of levels some gear that doesnt suck, a bunch of resistances, and actually find a game that will run a 24 through the bhaal area for xp.

If you're playing Softcore, it's pretty easy to just latch on to somebody's bot and/or somebody doing Baal runs for their own MFing purposes (just be careful not to accidentally get credit for a Baal kill and end up having the game-finder show you Nightmare games.) They can solo the thing even on 8 player difficulty, so they really don't care what you can do- you're just there to increase the drop rates. Hardcore, you probably just aren't going to level on Baaling unless you go sign up with the more active and honest D2 groups to find out what channels those games are organized on.

On a side note, I picked up a Skewer of Krinitz, and was curious (if I could acquire the runes through sheer luck) if it would be worthwhile upgrading it to the NM equivalent.

Not really. The mods on the Skewer are nice, but nothing really unusual or valuable. Chances are you'll find an Exceptional Unique or even a Rare that is better and won't cost you the runes. On the other hand, if you just really want to, go ahead- Ral+Sol+ a Perfect Emerald isn't all that hard to gather. On the third hand, Sol is a component of a couple of really nice runewords that you might rather have- Ort+Sol is Lore in a helm, for example, and Ral+Sol is half the runes for Insight, which is crazy-useful for any mana-intensive class.

Dallas-Dakota

2009-09-19, 12:49 AM

Unless you start joining ''chant games'', recently there has been a chat bot called ''bread-chant'' which has been very popular. Totally changed the way of playing HC for some people.
(And oddly, very few PK's occur there...)

Just type
/m *breadchant timeleft

And you'l get the next game number and when it'l be made.(usually some people make ahead of time so that they can do quests/get into the next game.

hajo

2009-09-19, 05:16 AM

Hardcore, you probably just aren't going to level on Baaling unless you go sign up with the more active and honest D2 groups
It looks like the members of theamazon-basin.com (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/) play mostly hardcore.
To get into their games, you need access to the list of current passwords, which requires an account on their d2-forum.
Registering is free, but needs approval by a moderator - may need 2-3 days.

Playing is very nice, but you should read about their customs (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/new_to_basin_play_q.php) (loot-sharing, etc.)

On US-East, I have some HC-chars with levels in the range 12-20, account hajo-hc.

Winterwind

2009-09-19, 06:31 AM

Pre-Duriel you shouldn't run into a situation where you'll really suffer from lack of vit, and by then you'll have a few levels to pump into it. Just pop potions like pills.Stat investment is a bit different when one plays Hardcore. Vitality is a lot more important there. If by the time I reach the palace in Act II I don't have about 90-100 vitality I consider myself doing something wrong.

That depends on how good you are at finding items.. Personally? Runes and good items hate me (It was a miracle I could get ahold of the entire IK set even)Eh... I find even without good equipment Energy isn't really relevant later on. In the worst case, one can simply get a merc with Insight - the runes in that are low enough that anybody can assemble that.

nooblade

2009-09-19, 11:30 AM

The worst case is when you fill your inventory with mana potions and then leave it open so you can drink about a hundred per hour. Somehow I never run out of money when doing that.

Anyway, I've been playing so sporadically (once a month?) that it's all single player now. PlugY works with 1.12 and it's awesome. Maybe I'll even try out one of the mods.

Optimystik

2009-09-21, 03:07 PM

Something that helps a lot with a party's survivability (the thing HC groups should care about first and foremost, as opposed to SC's killing speed focus) a lot is a druid shifting to a bear and using Shockwave to stun the enemies (and a maximized Oak Sage, of course).

See, to me there's a trade-off there. Killing speed, particularly with AoE attacks or proxies, can lead directly to survivability. A summonancer with uber-skeletons and revives will almost never be touched; a trapsin with insta-kill traps can destroy enemies around corners without even seeing them, a wind druid's hurricane means he'll almost never be surrounded, etc. It gets even more complicated when defensive skills synergize with offensive ones, such as Resist Lightning being a necessary aura for a shockadin, bone wall synergizing a bonemancer's attacks AND armor, cyclone armor adding to a wind druid's damage, and so on. I'm not saying that you should use the EXACT same builds in HC as in SC, but for some the biggest change would be the build order rather than in the skills chosen, I think.

What we were talking about there were characters equipped with stuff they found or traded for themselves vs. characters for which high end equipment was bought with RL money, which is a quite different situation, I believe. :smallwink:

You omitted the third situation, which was outfitting an MF or other "seeker" character with paid-for gear in order to FIND better items for the actual "played" character and his colleagues. MF-ing with a sorceress in Hell isn't going to go very well without Tal-Rasha's Wrappings, and few weapons are able to combine the damage output and mf of Ali-Baba's.

Stat investment is a bit different when one plays Hardcore. Vitality is a lot more important there. If by the time I reach the palace in Act II I don't have about 90-100 vitality I consider myself doing something wrong.

Again, I'm not really seeing the difference: Vitality is paramount in SC also, for casters at least. The breakpoints are 156 STR (for a Spirit Monarch, the lowest requirement shield that can have 4 slots) and 75 dex (for a Wizardspike.) Every other point goes to VIT. In fact, if you're able to obtain powerful attribute boost like Enigma (substantial strength boost) or an Annihilus, you can lower those two even more and pump the rest into vitality.

In your case, you seem to level by going through the game rather than in runs (judging by your comment about "reaching the palace.") If you don't level in runs things go much more slowly and you have to assign those points to VIT straightaway to stay alive, but in runs enemies are dying so fast that you can end up with 30-50 attribute points saved up within an hour, allowing you to pump strength and dex as Setra said without impacting your survivability.

Winterwind

2009-09-21, 04:20 PM

See, to me there's a trade-off there. Killing speed, particularly with AoE attacks or proxies, can lead directly to survivability. A summonancer with uber-skeletons and revives will almost never be touched; a trapsin with insta-kill traps can destroy enemies around corners without even seeing them, a wind druid's hurricane means he'll almost never be surrounded, etc. It gets even more complicated when defensive skills synergize with offensive ones, such as Resist Lightning being a necessary aura for a shockadin, bone wall synergizing a bonemancer's attacks AND armor, cyclone armor adding to a wind druid's damage, and so on. I'm not saying that you should use the EXACT same builds in HC as in SC, but for some the biggest change would be the build order rather than in the skills chosen, I think.True... but on the other hand, I haven't ever seen a Singer barbarian in SC, in HC, its stunlock is highly useful. Just one example of a build that works in HC because of the safety it grants to the party that sees no use in SC.

You omitted the third situation, which was outfitting an MF or other "seeker" character with paid-for gear in order to FIND better items for the actual "played" character and his colleagues. MF-ing with a sorceress in Hell isn't going to go very well without Tal-Rasha's Wrappings, and few weapons are able to combine the damage output and mf of Ali-Baba's.I omitted it, because I was speaking of what would be considered a situation un-fun due to a too high power difference. :smallwink:

Those are both items that are not that difficult to find though. My highest level character ever was a level 94 sorc that had more than 600 MF with self-found equipment only.

Again, I'm not really seeing the difference: Vitality is paramount in SC also, for casters at least. The breakpoints are 156 STR (for a Spirit Monarch, the lowest requirement shield that can have 4 slots) and 75 dex (for a Wizardspike.) Every other point goes to VIT. In fact, if you're able to obtain powerful attribute boost like Enigma (substantial strength boost) or an Annihilus, you can lower those two even more and pump the rest into vitality.Of course. If one doesn't intend to wear a Spirit Monarch, casters can save further 50 points in Strength. The difference being that in SC, I would first fulfill the requirements for the equipment I intend to wear (with a couple Vitality points now and then) and increase Vitality later, in HC I make sure to put really much into Vitality even early on.

In your case, you seem to level by going through the game rather than in runs (judging by your comment about "reaching the palace.") If you don't level in runs things go much more slowly and you have to assign those points to VIT straightaway to stay alive, but in runs enemies are dying so fast that you can end up with 30-50 attribute points saved up within an hour, allowing you to pump strength and dex as Setra said without impacting your survivability.That's true, I guess.

nosignal

2009-09-29, 04:59 AM

Bump for great justice.

I've been reading up on D3 lately and now have the urge to reinstall D2, and I'd like some build suggestions.

I'll be playing single-player since I still have my old characters and equipment from long ago. I use the ATMA program to store my items, and a mod that enables b.net-only runewords to be used in SP.

IIRC, I aleady have characters that are reliant on the 7 character specific sets: Avenger, WW barb, phoenix striker, skelemancer, meteorb sorc, FC bear, and some sort of frozen arrow amazon(I can't recall the backup attack, if any).

Ready? Go!

Myrmex

2009-09-29, 01:12 PM

Again, I'm not really seeing the difference: Vitality is paramount in SC also, for casters at least. The breakpoints are 156 STR (for a Spirit Monarch, the lowest requirement shield that can have 4 slots) and 75 dex (for a Wizardspike.) Every other point goes to VIT. In fact, if you're able to obtain powerful attribute boost like Enigma (substantial strength boost) or an Annihilus, you can lower those two even more and pump the rest into vitality.

You should get enough dex for max block, since that equates to a lot of phsyical resist.

5 points in dex can give you 1.5% increased blocking, which will save you more damage from physical attack than the 10 HP you would otherwise get.

Optimystik

2009-09-29, 02:28 PM

You should get enough dex for max block, since that equates to a lot of phsyical resist.

5 points in dex can give you 1.5% increased blocking, which will save you more damage from physical attack than the 10 HP you would otherwise get.

The operative phrase there is "from physical attack." That DEX won't do anything to protect you from spells. As a caster (particularly one with Enigma), staying out of melee should be a high priority, and arrows/spikes/blood stars travel far slower than spells do in D2. Because block only applies against one element while HP applies against all of them, VIT is by far the better stat to max for a spellcaster.

In addition to the above, Monarchs have a low block percentage (42%) and Spirit does nothing to increase either the blocking rate or, more importantly, the blocking speed. That latter stat is critical for anyone dedicated to blocking, because a high block stat with no FBR will get you killed even faster. Nothing sucks more than getting blocklocked by a frenzytaur or a mob of exploding undead flayers when you could have simply teleported away after the first unblocked hit.

For those two reasons, sinking enough attribute points into DEX to keep block maxed (and keep in mind that you have to KEEP adding points to DEX as you level, because max block's dex requirement raises with level) is typically not a wise use of points for Spirit users. A Homunculus, HoZ, Rhyme or Moser's user can get away with it, but not a Spirit user, and every other caster besides a trapsin will be using one ideally.

Your 10HP calculation is also inaccurate, as most casters in hell will be aiming for a CtA prebuff or even a Wisp for Oak Sage. Both of those items cause massive returns per point of VIT.

Myrmex

2009-09-29, 04:01 PM

The operative phrase there is "from physical attack." That DEX won't do anything to protect you from spells. As a caster (particularly one with Enigma), staying out of melee should be a high priority, and arrows/spikes/blood stars travel far slower than spells do in D2. Because block only applies against one element while HP applies against all of them, VIT is by far the better stat to max for a spellcaster.

In addition to the above, Monarchs have a low block percentage (42%) and Spirit does nothing to increase either the blocking rate or, more importantly, the blocking speed. That latter stat is critical for anyone dedicated to blocking, because a high block stat with no FBR will get you killed even faster. Nothing sucks more than getting blocklocked by a frenzytaur or a mob of exploding undead flayers when you could have simply teleported away after the first unblocked hit.

For those two reasons, sinking enough attribute points into DEX to keep block maxed (and keep in mind that you have to KEEP adding points to DEX as you level, because max block's dex requirement raises with level) is typically not a wise use of points for Spirit users. A Homunculus, HoZ, Rhyme or Moser's user can get away with it, but not a Spirit user, and every other caster besides a trapsin will be using one ideally.

Your 10HP calculation is also inaccurate, as most casters in hell will be aiming for a CtA prebuff or even a Wisp for Oak Sage. Both of those items cause massive returns per point of VIT.

If you have Enigma or CtA, why are you using Spirit?

u-gotNOgame

2009-09-29, 05:36 PM

The rest of the gear is irrelevant. His point still holds, high block rate and low block speed will get anyone killed, especially your, now, extra squishy caster. Melee builds get away with it because they hold higher block shields (less dex investment), and those sheilds come with FBR, in addition Holy Shield gives you auto 2 frame block.Max vit is the only way I play casters, and the only way most anybody who blind tele's plays them.

-UGNG

tyckspoon

2009-09-29, 11:35 PM

If you have Enigma or CtA, why are you using Spirit?

Because even when you can afford Enigma and/or CtA, a Spirit shield is *still* one of the best possible off-hand items for a caster? Seriously. 2 skills, faster cast, faster hit recovery, lightning/cold/poison resist, vitality and mana. What else would you suggest for it, if you're not a Necro or a Paladin? Even then it's worth considering a Spirit over Herald of Zakarum or one of the unique Necro heads- the mods are still excellent and Spirit's easier to acquire (especially for Paladins, who can get four sockets in a paladin shield with much lower requirements than a Monarch.)

Paragraph

2009-09-30, 09:53 AM

Don't forget the resistance (or damage, but seriously, who cares about damage) automod as well as a far higher chance of blocking than any other shield basic types.

Spirit is THE shield for casters, the runeword is in the same class as Grief for weapons when the question "what is best" is asked.

Simon

Fleeing Coward

2009-09-30, 10:03 AM

Spirit is THE shield for casters, the runeword is in the same class as Grief for weapons when the question "what is best" is asked.

The best non nec/paly caster shield.
I'm still dreaming of a 2os venomous of deflecting shrunken head with 3 bone spirit/3 bone spear automods :smallbiggrin:

Paragraph

2009-09-30, 10:26 AM

As I said, "in the same class", since there are Melees where Grief is NOT the best weapon.

Though I do think that Spirit is the best shield for Pally-casters, which means hammerdins ofc.

Necs are indeed priviledged because they can have staffmods on their shields; though my dream combination would be a runeword "Splendor" shrunken head with +3 BSr, +3 CE, +1 Revs/Dec. The weapon would be a +3 BSr +3 DV +1 Dec/Revs whited wand.

Also, I won't play any Sorceress without maxblock now that I tried it. Spirit is a nice package, but to me, Sorcs are so fragile that the block is severely welcome. If you use Visceratuant with a rainbow facet, you'll even GAIN damage over spirit in a single-element build, and lose not much in a dual-build. What you lose is fcr, but that's what HotO was made for. Or, in my case, the revelation that the 63 cap is NOT too slow and full Tal makes more than up for this loss.

Simon

Optimystik

2009-09-30, 11:55 AM

If you have Enigma or CtA, why are you using Spirit?

Wind Druids and Sorceresses below the FCR breakpoint have no better option. Sorcs have better options than Enigma, but few for MF purposes.

HoZ is a great choice for most paladins, but remember that it has no FCR, which is critical for hammerdins and holy-bolters. Even if you do opt for HoZ with a paladin, you have to wait until 42. Spirit can be worn as early as 25 for a paladin (the level requirement for Amn) because paladin shields can get 4 sockets from the outset. Making one in the right paladin shield can easily rival HoZ's resists as well. (Chromatic gets up to 45 base, putting it just below HoZ's 50, and that's before the Spirit resistance bonuses.)

Homunculus is a better choice for most necromancers, but Spirit's runes are far cheaper.

Spirit boosts the skill bonus from CtA. Keep both on weapon switch (CtA flail, Spirit Monarch) for a massive HP boost and longer +skills.

Also, I won't play any Sorceress without maxblock now that I tried it. Spirit is a nice package, but to me, Sorcs are so fragile that the block is severely welcome. If you use Visceratuant with a rainbow facet, you'll even GAIN damage over spirit in a single-element build, and lose not much in a dual-build. What you lose is fcr, but that's what HotO was made for. Or, in my case, the revelation that the 63 cap is NOT too slow and full Tal makes more than up for this loss.

If you're going to facet a shield, go with Lidless instead - you get the same skill bonus, FCR (making it easier to hit the cap) and a substantial mana boost. If defense really matters that much to you, eschew the skills and double-facet a Moser's (or facet-Um/Pdiamond) for the extra resists instead.

Paragraph

2009-09-30, 02:32 PM

Why Lidless? You can't go Maxblock with that...and forget the Mana, I'm using Insight. Even without it, the points you get from Tal set alone should suffice.

Imho, Mosars < Visc. After all, with full Tals, you won't really NEED those Resistances, furthermore, upped Mosars costs you 100 str (16 more than the otherwise heaviest piece of equipment, Tal armor) and more dex than upped Visc (only 77 str), it's not really a good shield for blocking.

If you're going mono-ele, Mosars is better damage-wise than Visc, that's true, if the facets are good. Dual, never...both have better damage than Spirit.

Simon

Myrmex

2009-09-30, 03:53 PM

Droods use a +7 elemental skills maul, trapsins use +3 light skill claws with +lightning sentry mods on them, paladins use HoZ, necros use a head, and javazons use something like stormshield.

The only caster to use Spirit is a sorceress, and then for half the sorc builds, as the fcr doesn't matter cause of cool down.

Dallas-Dakota

2009-09-30, 04:11 PM

Droods use a +7 elemental skills maul
Not all Droods are Ele-focused droods. >.>

Optimystik

2009-09-30, 04:22 PM

Why Lidless? You can't go Maxblock with that...

I thought it was clear that I was against sorcs maxing block. :smallconfused:

and forget the Mana, I'm using Insight. Even without it, the points you get from Tal set alone should suffice.

With Energy Shield, Mana = Life, meaning you can never pile on too much. This is especially true when fighting Mana Burn foes. Insight also scales with your maximum, which in turn scales via Lidless.

Imho, Mosars < Visc. After all, with full Tals, you won't really NEED those Resistances, furthermore, upped Mosars costs you 100 str (16 more than the otherwise heaviest piece of equipment, Tal armor) and more dex than upped Visc (only 77 str), it's not really a good shield for blocking.

Lidless comes online at 41, Spirit at 54. Tal Rasha isn't available until 17 levels after that. It's a great choice at that point, but you still have to live long enough to get up there, and even in Softcore death sets your leveling back (and you will die frequently with poor resists.)

Not to mention, Tal Rasha's armor is extremely difficult to find, as is Chains of Honor, and most other non-shield sources of resistance. You could wear a rockstopper or Kira I suppose, which precludes your Shako/Lore/other useful head item, or a Wizardspike instead.

If you're going mono-ele, Mosars is better damage-wise than Visc, that's true, if the facets are good. Dual, never...both have better damage than Spirit.

Simon

But none add FCR, FHR (55% is a LOT and WILL get you up at least a breakpoint), skills, life AND mana. Facets are nice but hitting the next caster breakpoint plus the skill boost go a long way to making up the difference.

Droods use a +7 elemental skills maul, trapsins use +3 light skill claws with +lightning sentry mods on them, paladins use HoZ, necros use a head, and javazons use something like stormshield.

The only caster to use Spirit is a sorceress, and then for half the sorc builds, as the fcr doesn't matter cause of cool down.

Earth Shifter is a lot harder to find than 4 low runes. Spirit in a paladin shield can easily rival HoZ for a hammerdin, as it has no FCR. Necros will opt for a head if they can get one, but again you run into the finding one issue.

Even Orbers will use Spirit until they can get something with facets (they don't drop left and right you know.) There isn't a better shield out there for most of the game.