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View Full Version : [3.5] Spell guns...I know they've been tried before



Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 10:47 AM
Even during the Great War, the Elven Empire maintained strict laws determining who was allowed to practice what sort of magic and even whether or not one was allowed to practice at all. This meant there were fewer mages on the battle field. As the resistance grew in magical power, so did the Empire's need for magical support. To supplant the low number of powerful casters, the Elves commissioned the gnomes to construct spell-trigger devices that could be used by someone with no magical training. thousands of spell guns were constructed and issued to elite units. The most common spell guns contained scorching ray or acid arrow, but others were created, including advanced spell rifles of disintegration. After the war, many guns remained but only a handful of Gnome communities protect the secrets of their construction. Manuals still exist for creating and recharging the weapons, but are very rare.

My spell guns are essentially wand variants that anyone can use. Are they broken? How can I fix them? They're not as versatile as wands because they have fewer charges and can only be made to fire spells that require a ranged touch attack, like rays. The advantage is that they can be used by non-casters, and be recharged. Once this gets tweaked, I'll work on AoE spell weapons.

SPELL GUNS

Spell guns are divided into spell pistols and spell rifles. A spell pistol can be crafted to fire one level 4 or lower spell that requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as scorching ray). A new spell pistol has 30 charges that can be restored by a caster with the appropriate abilities. The cost of a spell pistol is equal to the level of the spell x the creators caster level x 750 gp. The maximum caster level of a spell pistol is 10. If a spell pistol has a material component cost, it is added to the base cost once for each charge (30 x material component cost) A spell pistol found as treasure has 1d20+10 charges.

A spell rifle can be crafted to fire one level 6 or lower spell that requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as disintegrate). A new spell rifle has 50 charges that can be restored by a caster with the appropriate abilities. The cost of a spell rifle is equal to the level of the spell x the creators caster level x 1000 gp. The maximum caster level of a spell rifle is 15. If a spell rifle has a material component cost, it is added to the base cost once for each charge (50 x material component cost). A spell rifle found as treasure contains 3d10 + 20 charges.

In order to craft or restore charges to a spell gun, a Character must have the Craft magic arms and armor feat, possess a spell gun construction manual, and know the appropriate spell.

A spell gun with a zero-level spell always deals the maximum damage, and automatically regains 5 charges per day

Spell Guns in Combat

Using a spell pistol is a ranged touch attack, but only provokes an attack of opportunity if it targets a non-adjacent enemy. Two spell pistols may be fired in the same turn using normal Two-Weapon fighting rules, and count as light weapons.

Using a spell rifle requires two hands, and is a ranged touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity. A spell rifle may be used as a melee weapon, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage. A bayonet may be added, in which case melee damage is piercing.

Possible Spellgun spells
0
Electric Jolt
ray of frost
acid splash

1
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Flame
Ray of Clumsiness
Lesser Orbs

2
Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Ray of Stupidity
Blast of Force
Rainbow Beam
Ray of Ice
Ray of Sickness
Ray of Weakness
Sting Ray

3
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Dizzyness
Rust Ray

4
Ray of De-animation
Orbs

5
Prismatic Ray

6
Ray of Light
Ray of Entropy
Disintegrate

7
Antimagic Ray
Stun Ray

8
Polar Ray

Gauntlet
2009-05-18, 11:03 AM
Looks powerful, when compared to wands. Spell Pistols seem to be exactly the same as wands of the level, except with lower cost per charge and no UMD to use- I'd recommend bumping up the price or dropping the number of charges to make more of a tradeoff between putting ranks in UMD for a (better?) wand or using the more expensive/less reliable/some other disadvantage basic weaponry.

Add some to the price (or take out some charges) and you're golden, IMO.

Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 11:07 AM
Does the limit of spell types help that at all, or do I still need to up the price?

Ashtagon
2009-05-18, 11:11 AM
Are you sure about letting spell rifles do level 8 spells? That's better than a staff is allowed under RAW.

Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 11:25 AM
According to the SRD, a staff can hold a spell of any level. Still, I guess I could cap it at 6; there aren't many spells that actually work higher than that, anyway. I really just wanted to make a disintegrate gun possible.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-05-18, 11:29 AM
Are you sure about letting spell rifles do level 8 spells? That's better than a staff is allowed under RAW.

Staffs can have spells of any level. I agree, however, that they shouldn't be able to do up to level 8. Level 3 for spell pistols and level 6 for spell rifles sounds best to me.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-18, 11:36 AM
But...but...they're possible under the current rules. Observe.

What you want: A weapon allowing the casting of Disintegrate, usable even by those without spell-slots. It will use charges, and function at caster level 11.

How it's done: This is pulled from page 285 of the 3.5 DMG.

Something along these lines is either Use-Activated, Command Word Activated, or Spell-Trigger Activated.

Spell Trigger is out, as it requires knowledge of the spell (as stated on page 213). Command Word doesn't fit the flavor. So Use-Activated it is: Activated with a Standard Action to attack, or possibly dual-wielded on a Full-Attack Action (for Two-Weapon Fighting).

The cost of a Use-Activated spell item is (Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp). Making it Charged (50 charges) is a 50% price reduction. Also, it doesn't use up a space on the body, so that's a x2 price multiplier (which may or may not apply to spell-use items--the rules are vague on this point).

So a gun of Disintegrate follows this formula: [(6 x 11 x 2,000) x .5]

The result? 66,000gp for a charged gun of Disintegrate. Possibly 132,000, pending the exact application of the "body slot" rule. I just can't accept these rules you've suggested giving a 17,000gp (possibly 93,000gp) discount on the standard price for the same effect.

Viladin454
2009-05-18, 12:42 PM
My spell guns are essentially wand variants that anyone can use. Are they broken? How can I fix them? They're not as versatile as wands because they have fewer charges and can only be made to fire spells that require a ranged touch attack, like rays. The advantage is that they can be used by non-casters, and be recharged. Once this gets tweaked, I'll work on AoE spell weapons.

SPELL GUNS

Spell guns are divided into spell pistols and spell rifles. A spell pistol can be crafted to fire one level 4 or lower spell that requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as scorching ray). A new spell pistol has 30 charges that can be restored by a caster with the appropriate abilities. The cost of a spell pistol is equal to the level of the spell x the creators caster level x 500 gp. The maximum caster level of a spell pistol is 10. If a spell pistol has a material component cost, it is added to the base cost once for each charge (30 x material component cost) A spell pistol found as treasure has 1d20+10 charges.

A spell rifle can be crafted to fire one level 8 or lower spell that requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as disintigrate). A new spell rifle has 50 charges that can be restored by a caster with the appropriate abilities. The cost of a spell rifle is equal to the level of the spell x the creators caster level x 750 gp. The maximum caster level of a spell rifle is 15. If a spell rifle has a material component cost, it is added to the base cost once for each charge (50 x material component cost). A spell rifle found as treasure contains 3d10 + 20 charges.

In order to craft or restore charges to a spell gun, a Character must have the Craft magic arms and armor feat, possess a spell gun construction manual, and know the appropriate spell.

A spell gun with a zero-level spell always deals the maximum damage, and automatically regains 5 charges per day

Spell Guns in Combat

Using a spell pistol is a ranged touch attack, but only provokes an attack of opportunity if it targets a non-adjacent enemy. Two spell pistols may be fired in the same turn using normal Two-Weapon fighting rules, and count as light weapons.

Using a spell rifle requires two hands, and is a ranged touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity. A spell rifle may be used as a melee weapon, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage. A bayonet may be added, in which case melee damage is piercing.

Possible Spellgun spells
0
Electric Jolt
ray of frost
acid splash

1
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Flame
Ray of Clumsiness
Lesser Orbs

2
Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Ray of Stupidity
Blast of Force
Rainbow Beam
Ray of Ice
Ray of Sickness
Ray of Weakness
Sting Ray

3
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Dizzyness
Rust Ray

4
Ray of De-animation
Orbs

5
Prismatic Ray

6
Ray of Light
Ray of Entropy
Disintegrate

7
Antimagic Ray
Stun Ray

8
Polar Ray

Iron Kingdoms has an awesome Gun-mage prestige class. Might wanna look into that. Which I adapted for my FFd20 book. http://ffd20.orgfree.com/ffd20/Gun_Mage.pdf

Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 02:48 PM
The result? 66,000gp for a charged gun of Disintegrate. Possibly 132,000, pending the exact application of the "body slot" rule. I just can't accept these rules you've suggested giving a 17,000gp (possibly 93,000gp) discount on the standard price for the same effect.

So I'll just change the price of the rifles to spell level x caster level x 1000, and it should be fine, yes?

The rules already allow for this type of item, the reason I made more rules is because the spell gun is limited to spells that require a ranged touch attack, making them less versatile than other magic items.

Ashtagon
2009-05-18, 04:02 PM
I wouldn't grant any discount over the RAW. Simply because only spells that have a ranged touch attack can be placed in such an item is no reason to make it cheaper. It is in every aspect exactly the same as a regular wand with the same spell. You've specified a limit on creation, not a limit of combat potential.

J.Gellert
2009-05-18, 04:58 PM
If you have to change something over the current DMG rules, do this.

Guns cost between five and ten times the normal price.

Ammunition (essentially, recharging it) costs 1/5th of buying a new one (1/5th of standard cost, so 1/25th of the gun's actual cost).

That way you differentiate them from the standard items, you give them real ammo, and the players won't be loathe to start shooting away once they have it.

Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 06:09 PM
I wouldn't grant any discount over the RAW. Simply because only spells that have a ranged touch attack can be placed in such an item is no reason to make it cheaper. It is in every aspect exactly the same as a regular wand with the same spell. You've specified a limit on creation, not a limit of combat potential.

it also has fewer charges, but I see your point. I have edited pricing, and capped the spell level for rifles at 6th.

SilverClawShift
2009-05-18, 06:15 PM
My group did something like this. We're still fine tuning it, but the Spellshot Pistol is in my sig.

Pirate_King
2009-05-18, 06:40 PM
the spell shot's nice, and it makes a bit more sense than mine in terms of something that might be produced on a large scale. I may use yours with a rifle variant added for more powerful spells, as well as a stronger version of the stackround ammo

SilverClawShift
2009-05-18, 06:57 PM
Glad you like it :smallsmile:

And yeah, the modular ammo for it was something we considered really important. If you're playing a level 1-5 campaign in a low magic world with a lot of human enemies, 2d4 per attack with a swift reload isn't an unviable ranged combat method. If you're playing 15-20 and fighting an army of demons riding vampire dragons, a higher caliber weapon might be called for :smallamused:

Waspinator
2009-05-19, 12:54 AM
I like the spellshot too. It's a shame you never made more material for it.