Random Question

[Linkavitch]

So, I was reading the "Who gives Tsukiko her cleric powers" thread, and it hit me: In the one comic where Redcloak fights the head cleric in Azure City, the human claims to be the head cleric of the "Twelve Gods", not any particular one of that pantheon in general, but the entire pantheon. Can he do that? And if so, does that mean that there's a head cleric of the Northern Gods as well? 'Durkon used to know the head cleric of Thor, so it seems to me that each of the Twelve Gods should have a head cleric to themselves, rather then the whole pantheon.

(Ooh, another question! If the Twelve Gods really were empowering the one cleric, shouldn't that mean that he was more powerful then Reddie? I mean, if he has twelve gods that assisted in the creation of the universe behind him, shouldn't he have beaten a cleric of one goblin who ascended himself into godhood?)

[Zerg Cookie]

Possible War&XPs Spoiler:
In the last page (The awesome map), it says that the southern gods are worshiped as a pantheon and not individually, like the northern gods (I have no idea about the western)

Edit: As for the RC vs. that-high-priest-guy, their spells per day are determined by their level.
I think being a cleric of more than one god just gives you more domain options

[Volkov]

So, I was reading the "Who gives Tsukiko her cleric powers" thread, and it hit me: In the one comic where Redcloak fights the head cleric in Azure City, the human claims to be the head cleric of the "Twelve Gods", not any particular one of that pantheon in general, but the entire pantheon. Can he do that? And if so, does that mean that there's a head cleric of the Northern Gods as well? 'Durkon used to know the head cleric of Thor, so it seems to me that each of the Twelve Gods should have a head cleric to themselves, rather then the whole pantheon.

(Ooh, another question! If the Twelve Gods really were empowering the one cleric, shouldn't that mean that he was more powerful then Reddie? I mean, if he has twelve gods that assisted in the creation of the universe behind him, shouldn't he have beaten a cleric of one goblin who ascended himself into godhood?)

Read deities and demigods for this, because it explains exactly how worshiping an entire pantheon works. You just get to chose from more domains.

[EENick]

According to #486 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that cleric actually should have won. :smallsmile:

[Volkov]

According to #486 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that cleric actually should have won. :smallsmile:

No he just would have survived the destruction. He could have gotten hit in the face with another in a heartbeat.

[Zerg Cookie]

According to #486 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that cleric actually should have won. :smallsmile:

Not necessarily. The fact that he had a 22 doesn't mean it's enough, or that RC would fail a save before he does.

[Optimystik]

According to #486 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that cleric actually should have won. :smallsmile:

Wow, I didn't notice that before! Would have only delayed the inevitable though... :smallbiggrin: I thought he was referring to his place in line.

[EENick]

No he just would have survived the destruction. He could have gotten hit in the face with another in a heartbeat.

It wouldn't matter if he did eventually loose. All he would have had to do was delay Redcloak a little longer. If he had then Xyklon would have been "killed" fighting the paladin ghosts wasting all his magic on spells that did little good against ghosts before Red Cloak arrived to assist and advise. Red Cloak himself would have likely been killed soon after and Miko would have never had the chance to destory the gate while everyone was distracted fighting.

[Silverraptor]

Wow, I didn't notice that before! Would have only delayed the inevitable though... :smallbiggrin: I thought he was referring to his place in line.

Ya me too. One of my friends realized that a few days ago.

As for the Cleric Vs Redcloak. Read SoD During the crayon section, the gods complain that all their clerics can't do anything because they're too low level to beat anything. Level still means everything when your a cleric.

[Lissou]

I wondered about that, too. Why are they worshipped as a whole, when they would conflict with each other so much? How can the paladins follow them when some of them are Evil?

But then I thought, it makes sense. They are parts of a whole, after all. The twelve animals/signs go together (for us that is). And in a way, it would make it more balanced, too.

Of course, that begs the question: if Lawful Good people can worship them as a whole, when there are Chaotic and/or Evil gods among them, can Evil people follow the Twelve Gods as well? And how would it work?

Also, might it be that they can also be worshipped separately? It's possible that the Sapphire Guard (and, well, their clerics) worship the Twelve Gods together for some reason of balance or something. I don't know, I feel it fits with the "don't meddle with the other gates" business, some kind of zen approach or something...

At least we don't have to keep track of who follows which of the Twelve Gods this way :P

[Volkov]

It wouldn't matter if he did eventually loose. All he would have had to do was delay Redcloak a little longer. If he had then Xyklon would have been "killed" fighting the paladin ghosts wasting all his magic on spells that did little good against ghosts before Red Cloak arrived to assist and advise. Red Cloak himself would have likely been killed soon after and Miko would have never had the chance to destory the gate while everyone was distracted fighting.

Xykon cannot die unless the plot demands it. And he could hit himself with energy drain.

[EENick]

Xykon cannot die unless the plot demands it. And he could hit himself with energy drain.

And in this alternate universe where the cleric made his save and continued to fight Redcloak clearly it is demanded.

Further he can cast energy drain all he wants but an epic level paladine ghost will a small army of support is still going to put him down. He would have done so even with Redcloak assisting if not for Miko.

[Volkov]

And in this alternate universe where the cleric made his save and continued to fight Redcloak clearly it is demanded.

Further he can cast energy drain all he wants but an epic level paladine ghost will a small army of support is still going to put him down. He would have done so even with Redcloak assisting if not for Miko.

You can't ignore an average of 40 extra hit points. For a Sorcerer who probably has 208 hit points, that would heal him by a fifth. And because it would have taken one more round for Redcloak to arrive, that would be enough.

[EENick]

You can't ignore an average of 40 extra hit points. For a Sorcerer who probably has 208 hit points, that would heal him by a fifth. And because it would have taken one more round for Redcloak to arrive, that would be enough.

Given that those ghost alone should have been doing more then 40 damage a round leaving Kim free to finish the lich off....I rather think I can. I just can't see Xykon possibly healing himself fast enough to out pace the sort of damage he was taking from the beat down.

Plus if Red Cloak was delayed by more then 2 or 3 rounds he would have run into Miko which should have kept him occupied for a fair amount of time even if she couldn't kill him.

[Dagren]

Delaying Miko would have also meant that Soon Kim wouldn't have been distracted and would have finished Xykon off.

[Volkov]

Given that those ghost alone should have been doing more then 40 damage a round leaving Kim free to finish the lich off....I rather think I can. I just can't see Xykon possibly healing himself fast enough to out pace the sort of damage he was taking from the beat down.

Plus if Red Cloak was delayed by more then 2 or 3 rounds he would have run into Miko which should have kept him occupied for a fair amount of time even if she couldn't kill him.

He could fly back and use energy drain on himself three times, swoop in and unleash a sudden empowered and maximized energy drain on soon. Which would knock him down by 12 hit dice. Which would utterly devastate him. The other ghosts could be hit with enervation spells.

[SPoD]

I wondered about that, too. Why are they worshipped as a whole, when they would conflict with each other so much? How can the paladins follow them when some of them are Evil?

How about because they're no proof that any of them are Evil? This entire theory is based on Rat being an ally of the Dark One, but remember that the Dark One, while Evil, also represents an oppressed minority race driven to live in the dark dirty places in the world...the sort of thing that might resonate to a Rat.

No one says they have to follow the rules of D&D gods, anyway, with one alignment per god. They're based on the Chinese zodiac, and in the zodiac, everyone who is born in a given year has the same sign. Would it not be silly if everyone born in the same year worshipped the same god with the same alignment?

It could be that all twelve gods have aspects of themselves that are Good and aspects that are Evil. A paladin worships all twelve gods in their Good incarnations, Tsukiko and Kubota worship them in their Evil incarnations.

[EENick]

He could fly back and use energy drain on himself three times, swoop in and unleash a sudden empowered and maximized energy drain on soon. Which would knock him down by 12 hit dice. Which would utterly devastate him. The other ghosts could be hit with enervation spells.

Given the ghosts could fly I doubt he could get away to do much of anything and as some sort of custom ghosts/paladine class it is highly likely they are immune to energy drain. I'm not a rules guru or anything but it seems to be positive energy spirits should be immune to energy drain. Although the ghosts were turnable Soon himself was clearly immune to Redcloaks attempt to channel negative energy against him. Even if he wasn't Xykon was clearly not used to fighting other non-living creatures as he was using pretty ineffective tactics till Redcloak showed up. He was on the verge of being overwhelmed and likely has already burned all his 9th level spells taking an empowered and maximized energy drain firmly off the table as much less three energy drains for himself. He said he was almost down to 5th and lower level spells.

[Goldwing]

For some reason I've always imagined that they took sort of the Greek approach, in that they would worship their pantheon as a whole, but have particular gods whom they favor for particular circumstances, and may even have a 'patron' god of sorts whom they favor in worship (or who favors them!). On a regular day you may honor all of your gods, only your 'patron' god, or whichever gods you think it may be a good idea to get on the good side of today. But, say you were about to voluntarily attack an epic-level Lich sorcerer alone on a flying dragon zombie several hundred feet above an ongoing battle with only your ancestral sword and no backup plans you would honor each and every god(ess) you could think of, make up a few and honor them, and perhaps consider dipping into real world religion and taking along some tokens of St. Michael and St. Jude.

[Flickerdart]

perhaps consider dipping into real world religion and taking along some tokens of St. Michael and St. Jude.
Well, it is always a good idea to keep ol' Roland happy.

[Goldwing]

Roland, you say? I can't seem to find his patronage...

Also, DAYUM Catholics have a lot of saints. With patronages over everything from beekeepers to torture victims...and sudden death and lightening. Jebus.

[Dark Matter]

You can't ignore an average of 40 extra hit points. For a Sorcerer who probably has 208 hit points, that would heal him by a fifth. And because it would have taken one more round for Redcloak to arrive, that would be enough.Presumably X had already done this before Redcloak did arrive... but hey, even if he'd been killed, it wouldn't have been a big deal. Xykon goes back to Redcloak's amulet.

Team Evil keeps the city.
Soon keeps control of the gate...
Miko destroys it (probably correctly since if Team Evil has the city then they'll get the gate).
Xykon gets his body back in a week or so.

[Rotipher]

For some reason I've always imagined that they took sort of the Greek approach, in that they would worship their pantheon as a whole, but have particular gods whom they favor for particular circumstances, and may even have a 'patron' god of sorts whom they favor in worship (or who favors them!).

Assuming the Zodiac connection actually applies in Stickverse, people might worship the entire pantheon, but pray especially frequently to the god whose year they happen to have been born in. It's unclear if various members of the Twelve Gods have unique portfolios; perhaps they simply share the personality-traits (and affinities? is Rat close buds with Monkey and Dragon?) associated with a given birth year.

Note that, while Rat isn't necessarily Evil, it's the IRL sign that is considered the most scheming and deceptive, in its negative aspect. So regardless of alignment, it's a good candidate to be involved in any sort of under-the-table dealings with a divine loner like the Dark One.

[Optimystik]

Note that, while Rat isn't necessarily Evil, it's the IRL sign that is considered the most scheming and deceptive, in its negative aspect. So regardless of alignment, it's a good candidate to be involved in any sort of under-the-table dealings with a divine loner like the Dark One.

In SoD, Rat is actively chumming around with Tiamat, Loki and the Dark One. Its 'evil image' also comes from the fact that it eats carrion :smallsmile:


He could fly back and use energy drain on himself three times, swoop in and unleash a sudden empowered and maximized energy drain on soon. Which would knock him down by 12 hit dice. Which would utterly devastate him. The other ghosts could be hit with enervation spells.

Soon can fly too, and 9th level spells are pretty easy to disrupt when you've got an epic smite evil, so there goes that plan.


I'm not a rules guru or anything but it seems to be positive energy spirits should be immune to energy drain. Although the ghosts were turnable Soon himself was clearly immune to Redcloaks attempt to channel negative energy against him.

While they are immune to death effects, poison and a host of other maladies, Deathless (BoED 157) are indeed susceptible to energy drain. This is the most likely template for Rich to have used with Soon's ghosts (Soon himself likely had levels in Risen Martyr, and conferred similar abilities to the paladins after they were slaughtered.)

However, keeping in mind that level drain isn't nearly as debilitating to a melee fighter like Soon as it would be to a caster (and the fact that Xykon foolishly burned his higher spell slots early), it's unlikely that even getting a level drain off on Soon would have made much difference to Xykon's chances; ergo, your point still stands :smallsmile:

[Vemynal]

Wow, I didn't notice that before! Would have only delayed the inevitable though... :smallbiggrin: I thought he was referring to his place in line.

lmao same here, thx for pointing that out XD

[Devils_Advocate]

Were paladins forbidden from working for a government containing even one Evil person, that would pretty much prevent them from working for human governments at all. Which isn't necessarily reasonable. Is it wrong to loyally serve a good, just kingdom just because the aristocracy has a few bad apples?

Now, a pantheon of twelve gods is much smaller than a human government, small enough that it could theoretically have no Evil members. But the same basic principle applies: Working in its service is acceptable so long as you're promoting justice and not actually taking orders from any of the Evil members.

If anything, it seems more questionable to oppose a group of rulers because they don't meet an unreasonable standard of purity. Which I guess gets to the question of whether Miko and Hinjo were overly harsh in response to Shojo's duplicity...