OOTS #654 - The Discussion Thread

[Snake-Aes]

The recon and see what is happening, do not just blindly take the chance.

Do you agree that it would make more sense to escape and rebuild rather than charging blindly into the fray?

Given it's much, much easier to scry on O-chul and capture him than it is to scry on the generic resistance members, no, I don't agree with you.
O-chul Judged much more worth attempting to save V / smite xykon / whatever he is going to do in battle than fleeing. Fleeing just doesn't make sense for him.

But, you know, O-chul is not dumb. Like he said himself, he knows odds are he's gonna bite it. Hell, this is the kind of situation Elan got upset with when Daigo and Kazumi played redshirt heroes! It CALLS for hero death >.>
But he won't do it for nothing. If there isn't a reason worth dieing for, he won't die for it. Proof of that is that he didn't flee.

[pendell]

It occurs to me there are three other targets O-chul could engage besides Xykon.


Me, I'd target Tsukiko. In-game, she's a traitor to Azure City and the most dangerous to the resistance, since she knows the human inhabitants better than Redcloak or the hobgoblin does. She's also the high-level target O-chul has the highest probability of taking out, thereby accomplishing the two fold objectives of distracting Team Evil and doing them real damage. Story-wise, she like O-chul was introduced for this arc and doesn't really seem to have continuing-villain moxie. She makes a convenient target for O-chul to take out and look cool while still leaving our core villain team free to move onto the gates.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aris Katsaris]

Seriously, how could a Paladin with an iron rod hurt even a wounded Lich?

Seriously? Here's how:
Smash his phylactery. Which he was alone of the good guys knows about, being in the room when Soon talked about it. Ensuring that when Xykon does meet his end, it will be indeed the end.

What I describe above, would be hurting him enough, and would be worth dying for.

[maxon]

What I want to know is what were the others doing while V popped in to challenge Xykon?

Go O-Chul.

[Volkov]

Wait I wasn't having a crazy dream!! O-Chul is really going to die!?!?!!!??????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!! O-chul, he's really going to die. His game is going to end and he won't get a continue!!! Damn I've been playing too much super paper mario.

[wootage]

Seriously? Here's how:
Smash his phylactery. Which he was alone of the good guys knows about, being in the room when Soon talked about it. Ensuring that when Xykon does meet his end, it will be indeed the end.

What I describe above, would be hurting him enough, and would be worth dying for.

Yup, my take is that he's actually going to

go for Redcloak. He's a known enemy of the Sapphire Guard, an important member of Team Evil, he carries the phylactery, and he's definitely vulnerable to Smite Evil, which makes him an achievable goal.

The one flaw I see is if there are other clerics who can rez him - dunno how to deal with that.

[motub]

No, it is not: it's O-Chul. Observe the final desperate cry of Monster-San, the climax of this current comic. The paladin's name is even in a comic title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) ("546: O-Chul's Razor"). If you're going to correct someone
Actually, I don't think that the statement "It's O-Chul" (sic) was meant as a correction of the spelling of his name-- the quote derfenrirwolv was responding to specifically ended with the statement that it was "really bad odds"

derfenrirwolv responded with "(But) it's O-Chul (we're talking about, here)", meaning that we have seen O-Chul defeat worse odds than quoted, before breakfast, literally.

In other words, the poster mentioning really bad odds hadn't taken into account O-Chul's levels in Paladin Awesome.

Which point is sufficiently germane to the discussion to allow me at least to overlook the mispelling of O-Chul's name :smallsmile:.

[Volkov]

Yup, my take is that he's actually going to

go for Redcloak. He's a known enemy of the Sapphire Guard, an important member of Team Evil, he carries the phylactery, and he's definitely vulnerable to Smite Evil, which makes him an achievable goal.

The one flaw I see is if there are other clerics who can rez him - dunno how to deal with that.

Redcloak probably has a disintegrate spell or two ready for O-chul.

[Kesnit]

Redcloak probably has a disintegrate spell or two ready for O-chul.

O-Chul has a good FORT save, meaning he would take 5d6. As a FGT/PAL with a high CON, he has HP to spare.

[Volkov]

O-Chul has a good FORT save, meaning he would take 5d6. As a FGT/PAL with a high CON, he has HP to spare.

Xykon has energy drain, which gives no saving throw for the immediate effect, and can kill him in two shots.

[Kai_Lord]

Red Cloak took some collateral damage from V's chain lightening, which he hasn't bothered to heal yet. He's also been weakened, and might present a better target that the big X. So I'm with the people that say that O-Chul will be going after Red Cloak. (After all, if you want to distract the big bad lich, target his immortality insurance. :smallbiggrin:)

[dancrilis]

Well, aren't there some very optimistic people here today.

Yes I think it might be just that much of a spoiler.
For those of you who have read SoD.
I fully expect Redcloak or Xykon to be making O'Chul the second Right-Eye with MitD the second Redcloak, and for the monster to eat O-Chul.
It could be a very nice twist.

[gamephil]

Hey, first time poster.

Am I the only one thinking O-chul is pretty much an idiot for blindly marching to a pointless death when he could escape and continue to fight and help others?

Yup, pretty much the only one.

Oh, a detailed answer? There are any number of ways that his death could be of greater use than his life. He's been observing Team Evil for months for a chance to make a real difference, and I have yet to see an indication that he's stupid enough to throw both his life and all that observation away on something trivial, including a chance to prove he is Lawful Stupid. Or, as the lady paladin says, Good, not Dumb. Whatever he has planned will be of enough strategic value to be worth his life, at least in his opinion. What the value of his death will be remains to be seen.

Plus, one man alone with a simple weapon against impossible odds is bound to win. Oh, wait, that's in the Discworld novels. Nevertheless, we have enough evidence that the Giant shares Pratchett's penchant for drama beating logic that I think he may do serious damage with that bar before being sent to meet with the rest of the Sapphire Guard, which is hardly a horrible fate for our hero should it happen.

[Kaytara]

Well, aren't there some very optimistic people here today.

Yes I think it might be just that much of a spoiler.
For those of you who have read SoD.
I fully expect Redcloak or Xykon to be making O'Chul the second Right-Eye with MitD the second Redcloak, and for the monster to eat O-Chul.
It could be a very nice twist.


Unlikely, I think. While the MitD is in his cage, there is no reason to involve him, since Team Evil can easily handle O-Chul by themselves. And if the MitD DOES get involved... By the time Xykon realises what's happened, the whole tower will be falling apart as the result of a MitD temper tantrum.

[Ryrgwryr]

Wow... That's so heart-touching. That's been a while I have been so emotional about anything. No wonders though, O-Chul is bringing back glory to paladins :smallsmile: I think V will get out there somehow just to realize how useless arcane magic turned out to be again. Sigh... Good luck O-Chul.
Awesome comic :smallbiggrin:

[Adeptus]

O'chul is a true hero and a good person.

[otakuryoga]

character development from :mitd:??

talk about a momentous occasion

DUNH

DUNH

DUNH!!!!

[ScIaDrd]

Oh now you´ve got me hanging there.. can´t wait to see the next strip. but.. plase .. just don´t let O chul die. That´d be too much:smalleek:Also, Monster- san´s screaming was quite heartbreaking. Dont you dare die O-chul,. You´re The badass-awesome paladin, so hold on!:smallcool:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Hey, first time poster.

Am I the only one thinking O-chul is pretty much an idiot for blindly marching to a pointless death when he could escape and continue to fight and help others?

He has been waiting for this moment. He has been balancing his duty as a Paladin of his particular order with the knowledge he can possibly make a difference if he strikes when the time is right.

At the moment he has perhaps planted the seed of doubt in the mind the MitD and three of Team Evil's higher ups are injured. He might not know about the resistance, and he doesn't seem to know Hinjo is alive either.


Seriously, how could a Paladin with an iron rod hurt even a wounded Lich?

And you are sure he will attack Xykon how? There are four high up enemies in the area, three of them hurt.


He will die, and he knows it. There is nothing to be accompished. He is a resource which is better saved rather than expended in a futile gesture.

Yes, he knows he will almost certainly die. But if he dies in the process of delivering a great blow to such dangerous opponents then he wont think it is in vain (and it wouldn't be).


It occurs to me there are three other targets O-chul could engage besides Xykon.


Me, I'd target Tsukiko. In-game, she's a traitor to Azure City and the most dangerous to the resistance, since she knows the human inhabitants better than Redcloak or the hobgoblin does. She's also the high-level target O-chul has the highest probability of taking out, thereby accomplishing the two fold objectives of distracting Team Evil and doing them real damage. Story-wise, she like O-chul was introduced for this arc and doesn't really seem to have continuing-villain moxie. She makes a convenient target for O-chul to take out and look cool while still leaving our core villain team free to move onto the gates.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think she would be the best target. Now O-Chul isn't as rash (to put it kindly) as Miko, but after all those sessions he knows how dangerous Redcloak is both as bearer of the Crimson Mantle and as Xykon's right hand Goblin.

It would be similar to some Bond like character taking his one shot at Dr. Big Bad's interesting but non-vital third in command while Dr. Big Bad and his super 2nd are injured in the same room.

Which puts me in conflict - I don't want O-Chul to die without some success (if that is his fate) but I don't really want to see any of Team Evil present die either. They are all so awesome and lovable.


Oh, right, fight Xykon. O-Chul has his chance to do that right now, a better chance than will likely ever present itself - I assume this strip is taking place concurrently with late 652/653, so Xykon is both distracted and already damaged. It's a beautiful opportunity.

Although unless Xykon lands when O-Chul is in position he will be difficult to hit.

[Estelindis]

Actually, I don't think that the statement "It's O-Chul" (sic) was meant as a correction of the spelling of his name
Gotcha. That makes more sense.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

O'chul is a true hero and a good person.

It's also got me wondering if we are about to, or within a few strips of seeing a payoff to the final panel of strip #547.

It might have just been a nice touch, or perhaps it does foreshadow a slave rebellion. It would be nice if O-Chul act (or death I guess) inspired the people to throw off their chains.

Although that might break Redcloak's heart if he lost the city. All the effort he's put into establishing this part of his new Goblin state.

[dancrilis]

Unlikely, I think. While the MitD is in his cage, there is no reason to involve him, since Team Evil can easily handle O-Chul by themselves. And if the MitD DOES get involved... By the time Xykon realises what's happened, the whole tower will be falling apart as the result of a MitD temper tantrum.


I see it more as a Xykon(or Redcloak) set up. It will look like he is in trouble, the monster will defend him, and it will be completely unneeded. Then Xykon(or Redcloak) will explain to the monster how he was wrong, he just killed a defenseless man who was his friend, but that he can forget all about it if he just does what he is told, and doesn't try to think ever again.

As for who O-Chul targets?
I say Xykon, he has a bludgeoning weapon.

In close combat (if unexpected) he could destroy Xykon in 1 round.
Assume that he is 12th level
So he has, 3 attacks, call it a str of 14 but with a two handed weapon 1d8(quarterstaff) becomes 1d8 + 3, plus smite for 12 (I don't think no negitives count) each, plus another 2 (for buffing with bulls strength), plus 3 (for using greater magic weapon) (assume the spells were cast during V fight).
So 3d8 + 9 + 36 + 6 + 9 = 63 to 84 or call it 73 damage.

Depending on how damaged Xykon is that might work (though seriously I doubt it) and if O-Chul can survive that he could target the Phylactery with his remaining actions in the next rounds until he is dead.
So 3d8 + 9 + 6 + 9 = 27 to 48 or call it 37 damage to the Phylactery each round, - 20 hardness for 7 to 28 call it 17 gives the Phylactery three rounds of combat.

Can O-Chul survive 4 rounds of combat?

Although I admit that by figures might be a fuzzy and require him to hit with all his attacks.

[Stryyder]

First of all Giant good job.

Secondly I rarely post but here are some comments.


I think it is important to note that regardless of O-Chul's fate after #654 it is what happened in 654 that defines O-Chul....

O-Chul watched all of the Paladins under his command slaughter each other under the affects of the Rune of Insanity. He has suffered every indignation and form of torture yet he carreis himself with dignity to the very end.

He is polite (asking the MiTD to please be quiet as he breaks open his cell. It is obvius that he could have escaped earlier and joined the resistance but chose not to. His words to the MiTD is not pleading or manipulating into havin the MiTD join his side but rather specifically it addresses the fact that each of us determine our own nature and is an attempt to reinforce the MiTD's free will and I believe O-Chul is fully accepting the fact that MiTD will have to make his own decision to be good or evil.

Regardless of what happens tomorrow It will be hard to forget the image of O-Chul charging off to certain death in his loin cloth, boots and with a bent steel rod as his only physical weapon and politely saying 'farewell my gentle friend'/


POSSIBLE ACTIONS

I find it very likely that O-Chul recognizes that Team Evil strength is anchored by two points. One is the raw power of our favorite lich the other is the planning and organizational skills of Redcloak. Without Redcloak Team Evil will be chaotic and unfocused more likely to make critical errors and mistakes. Without the lich team evil is less powerful and less likely to succeed.

Regardless O-Chul cannot possibly do both of them irreperable harm, he may be able to hurt one or the other O-Chul is smart enough to know this and realistic enough not to lie to himself about it. He also has gained quite a bit of intelligence information which would be important specifically about their weaknesses in group dynamic, location of the phylactery and what gate they are targeting next.

O-chul will look to do the following based on how the opportunity presents itself.

1) Impart knowledge to V and enable his escape
2) Distract Team evil and escape magically with V
3) Destroy the Phylactory (set back to team evil) or destroy a book or other item they need to help assault the next gate.
4) Kill a leading member of team evil and deny them a important item through V's escape either the phylactory, redcloak's red cloak etc.
5) Kill Tsukio (knowing that they probably wouldn't waste a resurrection on her as redcloak hates her) as this will help the resistance as she is primarily tasked with eliminating azure city resistance fighters.
6) Free the prisoners cause mass chaos and go to the resistance

And of course die trying any of the above

Possible Wildcards

MiTD doubtfull I don't think you with see MiTD action as this is a turning point for him not a defining momement

Possible Resistance involvement obviously they can see teh battle and the damage to the castle will they attempt a strike during the chaos

OOTS involvement Does V get a disentegrate spell off before he leaves maybe probably not does he escape or get carried of by the resistance maybe. Do other OOTS memebers show up doubtful.

The three stooges (devil/fiend/demon) do they show up to protect their investment in V maybe V being dead will not allow them to use V as per the agreement .

Interesting effect on V.

V has been suffering the effects of PTSD since the battle of Azure city, the deaths of those fighters/paladins as he watched doing nothing haunt him. He has convinced himself that his inaction was merited as his life has more value than theirs because of his arcane power. Hence he has quested for the ultimate arcane power and a way to defeat Team Evil more for the selfish reason of proving this theory and justifying his inaction. I am afraid what the affect of both failing and then have another honorable person O-CHul give up is life so that V may escape will have on him. It will be interesting to say the least.

[fractal]

Maybe during the (hopefully) levels Team Evil forced him to gain, O-Chul took a Vow of Poverty or something similar. I think it's safe to assume that he qualifies for Exalted. That would substantially increase the damage he might be able to deal.

[DanReiv]

"I was only kidding when i said we'd be killing Xykon in 5 strips" :belkar: in 650.

And what if ? :p

What if O'Chull managed to put Xykon to 0 with an all-in lay on handed power attack, then get killed by Redcloack, MiTD becomes pissed off, forcing Team Evil to retreat.

Azure city : Freed
MiTD : Freed
V: Safe
O'Chull : Awesome

Go O'Chull !

[Dilvish]

Seriously, how could a Paladin with an iron rod hurt even a wounded Lich?

He will die, and he knows it. There is nothing to be accompished. He is a resource which is better saved rather than expended in a futile gesture.

Swampthing,
Part of me agrees with you. Part of me doesn't. In games I have had my characters decide both ways in similar situations. Sometimes they go down fighting, sometimes they run away to fight another day. It depends on what my character knows of the situation and what is on the line.

I believe O-Chul is doing the right thing. Why? Because of what I know of O-Chul. He knows more about the situation in the room than we readers do; he knows far more about himself and his abilities than we do. O-Chul has a plan; we readers have to have faith that O-Chul knows what he is doing.

O-Chul may have something to tell the Spartans.

Dilvish

PS Remember the Battle of Samar.

[kamuishirou]

I sniffled a little bit. The next comic has to be epic!

[Jeivar]

And THAT is how you play a paladin! :smallsmile:

[Calemyr]

You know, for a group of people who seem to worship the indomitable one, you show a depressing lack of faith... Isn't there a point on his agenda that has yet to be considered yet?


Namely, the Azurite captives, the ones who are even now whispering stories of O-chul's awesomeness and courage. It seems to me a strategic move to use this distraction to free the captives while Team Evil's heavy hitters are otherwise occupied. Once his people are freed, and only then, should he consider sacrificing his life in a bold attempt to break Team Evil.


Pursuing that goal would be manageable with his current resources and if he deals with it first he could then face off against Team Evil with no reservations and no regrets.

[B.I.T.T.]

O-Chul is without a doubt the coolest paladin in the ootsverse. The Monster in the Darkness is without a doubt the coolest monster in the darkness in the ootsverse. I don't know about you guys, but I smell sitcom.

All kidding aside, this is one of those comics that I'm going to end up going back and re-reading every now and again when I should be doing something productive.

Looking forward to the next installment.

[Dilvish]

Regarding O-Chul's chances in this fight, I think we should look beyond the combat rules of D&D. There are other things that can take place in a D&D campaign that aren't covered by the rules. Do the deities of Azure City still exist? This is the time that they may decide to act, by acting through O-Chul. That iron rod may suddenly take on the properties of a Holy Avenger weapon. Transform itself into a proper sword. Wreath itself and O-Chul in blazing holy light.

And there is the possibility of O-Chul being transformed upon his physical death, like Obi-wan. He could become a saint of the Azure City Pantheon, a holy symbol to the people.

Heh, maybe the gods will decide to send Roy down there to help him. :)

[pendell]

I don't think she would be the best target. Now O-Chul isn't as rash (to put it kindly) as Miko, but after all those sessions he knows how dangerous Redcloak is both as bearer of the Crimson Mantle and as Xykon's right hand Goblin.


Ah, but if O-chul is genre savvy he will indeed attack the target I recommended


because then he would know that Xykon and Redcloak are protected by plot shields.

For cryin' out loud, Xykon's plot shield was sufficient to save him from utter destruction at the hands of the single most powerful mortal magic user *ever to walk the world*.

So I'd go for Tsukiko. It's obvious X and R are plot-shielded until close to the strip climax -- and the characters do know they are in a comic strip. By contrast, Tsukiko may not be plot-shielded.

I can attack any of them to achieve the goal of distracting attention from V. But Tsukiko is the only one I have an actual chance at taking out of the game.

Players of Chris Roberts' games will have encountered the phenomenon. Those games were known for putting in villain starships with the 'invulnerable' flag set (example: Starlancer, Mission 21 or so, when Ivan Petrov shows up in a fighter for the first time). You could waste ammunition on them all day and achieve nothing. So unless it was the right mission, you were better off gunning for the mooks you *could* actually hurt.


And that's why I'd go for my chosen target rather than the others.

Hmm .. one of the posters above mentioned the Battle Off Samar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar). For those unfamiliar with the story, a task group of American vessels engaged a far superior force of Japanese ships with the intent of drawing them away from the defenseless, minimally armed transports which were the main objective of the Japanese. They were slaughtered and failed to cause much damage to the Japanese force -- in fact, without armor-piercing weapons their ability to do so was minimal -- but they did buy the Americans enough time that the Japanese Admiral Kurita aborted the mission rather than be caught in daylight by American aircaft. And so the entire carefully scripted gambit -- Operation Sho (Victory) -- whose entire purpose was to sacrifice major elements of the Japanese Navy so that Admiral Kurita could have a run at the transports -- came to nothing. Because brave men fought a hopeless battle they could not win.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

"I was only kidding when i said we'd be killing Xykon in 5 strips" :belkar: in 650.

And what if ? :p


Actually, Belkar said that in #649, not #650, so we're already on the 5th strip from then...sorry to kill your theory for you there. :smallwink:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Ah, but if O-chul is genre savvy he will indeed attack the target I recommended...

Heh, that is a good point.

But don't forget poor Jirix (the one and only Hobgoblin with a name).

But then again Jirix wouldn't hold the same attraction and traitorous Tsukiko true (I'd actually like to see Jirix survive. But then again I want O-Chul and all of them to live).

[Vire]

Actually, Belkar said that in #649, not #650, so we're already on the 5th strip from then...sorry to kill your theory for you there. :smallwink:


technically 5 strips from 649 would be strips 650-655, if we don't count the strip it was said in (since it was said at the end of the strip anyway):smallwink:

not that i really see it happening, but the foreshadowing is still out there

[SingPsalm43]

that was actually pretty touching. O'chul is easily one of the coolest secondary characters.

huh, haven't posted in a while, i wonder what my avatar was.

edit: red sorceror! woo!

[Basooned]

There is only two typical jailbreak hero plotlines that can happen now... either a last-gasp heroic save, or last-gasp heroic save plus heartbreaker sacrifice. :smalleek:

[dancrilis]

technically 5 strips from 649 would be strips 650-655, if we don't count the strip it was said in (since it was said at the end of the strip anyway):smallwink:

not that i really see it happening, but the foreshadowing is still out there

Your failing at math a bit there.

Here I will explain.
Said in 649.
1st strip after was 650
2nd strip after was 651
3rd strip after was 652
4th strip after was 653
5th strip after was 654

How the fact that Belkar repeats it in 650 might allow for some small (very small) amount of argument as to whether it still is achievable from that time, but to do that you need to ignore the words and context surrounding his repeat of it.

[LordSintax]

Ok... first: Awww.

Second: Suburst?

Third: O-Chul believes, as do I, that sometimes, you just gotta go down swinging.

Fourth: the ninth panel should read "thEn what am I"

sorry folks, I was an english major (see my username for nitpicking reasons)

[Charmy]

As has been speculated by a few of the posters here:


I believe O-Chul intends to destroy Xykon at this point. After taking an Empowered Sunburst, a crush by Bixby's Crushing Hand and the backlash of Superb Dispelling, a single good hit (which has been calculated at around ~40ish damage) from O-Chul with a Lay On Hands + Smite Evil could finish him off.

He could even throw in a little falling damage by pole vaulting into the flying Xykon and landing on top of him. This would explain the stance he's using with that pole, and would be a more sensible use for it than impaling anyone - as that wouldn't do anywhere near enough damage to tickle any of the people in that room.

He could then endure perhaps ONE round of the spell barrage that would be coming in from Tsukiko, Jirix and RedCloak, pick up V, tell him the location of Xykon's phylactery, and then throw him out of the tower. He probably should whisper it to him, because if Redcloak knew that the location was determined, he would probably be anal enough to destroy it and remake it as something else once Xykon returns.

In any case, with Xykon temporarily dead, no one would be able to pursue a flying V except MAYBE Tsukiko, if she had any flight spells prepared, and even then she is far less dangerous than Xykon and V would have a chance to either defeat or elude her.

Of course, the next round O-Chul is killed by team evil. However, the damage dealt would be devastating:

MiTD turned from Team Evil
Tower likely destroyed by MitD rampage
Xykon out of commission for days, making it at least possible for the resistance to take back the city during that time
Phylactery location revealed to OoTS through V
V given a demonstration of heroism, nobility and sacrifice that may influence his/her alignment path
O-Chul given a well deserved Crowning Moment of Awesome


Its also possible within the rules without ridiculous amounts of Deus Ex Machina action. O-Chul really has only ONE standard action to make his move. He likely won't win initiative for another round, and would not survive the combined onslaught of 4 casters (if they use any sense at all in choosing their spells). Xykon really can't remain standing for any plan to work.

[AyuVince]

If O-chul survives this, I fear he may be forced to kill his gentle new friend sometime in the future. But I hope the Giant avoids this trope.

Go O-chul!

[Robz_defheadz]

O-Chul is more manly that Chuck Norris and braver than Aragorn.

Blasphemy!

[Arkenputtyknife]

Its O'chul.

No, it's O-Chul. Japanese, not Irish. Even if for some reason you can't accept that, you should at least go by what the comic says: O-Chul.

[linkhyrule5]

I sense a Big No coming up...

So, what, the chance of this working is one in a million? That is a good thing :D :D :D. (After al, Probability is a copper-piece harlot :P)

My guess: O-Chul charges somebody, doesn't really matter who. Xykon easily overpowers him, is about to kill him... and :mitd: interrupts him with a ready action, maybe with a big growl. Bye-bye concentration...

Or, O-Chul scores three 20's against :redcloak: :D.

[Roninlemur]

...And exit, stage left. Now tell me you weren't teary :smallfrown:

[David Argall]

Hey, first time poster.

Am I the only one thinking O-chul is pretty much an idiot for blindly marching to a pointless death when he could escape and continue to fight and help others?
Maybe. But it depends on facts not known to us. O-Chul has pretty much 3 options. Stay in cage and be tortured some more, attack Xykon/his minions with a trivial chance of doing anything effective, but probably ending the torture, or try to escape, also with a fairly trivial chance of success, but most likely ending with him dead or being captured for more torture. There isn't a good option present.
Now much depends on what we don't know. Escape might work, but the place seems to have quite a few minions around. O-Chul can easily beat most of them, but his prospects of beating all is pretty dismal, particularly if they summons the high levels. And O-Chul may not know the way out. Pretty all he does is get dragged to places to be tortured. That can easily lead to him getting lost. [Since V just installed a new "window", he might get out that way, but it's doubtful Redcloak lets him heal up fully, so that may just be a quicker way to die.]
Fighting, particular when V was still functioning, just might work. It's a long shot, but at the moment he is better off dead anyway, so why not see if he can roll that 20?

[derfenrirwolv]

No, it is not: it's O-Chul. Observe the final desperate cry of Monster-San, the climax of this current comic. The paladin's name is even in a comic title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) ("546: O-Chul's Razor"). If you're going to correct someone, perhaps you should first check that you're actually right? (Also, it's "it's"...)

Perhaps you could actually bother to READ the post that spawned that comment? I wasn't nitpicking and correcting someone's spelling. I was answering the question "How are they going to hit anything with -10 on the power attack"

Answer: Because its O'chul.

[derfenrirwolv]

No, it's O-Chul. Japanese, not Irish. Even if for some reason you can't accept that, you should at least go by what the comic says: O-Chul.

Hey look, i just regrew a finger. Guess which one?

O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'Chul O'Chul O'Chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'Chul O'Chul O'Chul

Seriously people, i don't care if the stick IS a class feature. Take it out and move on.

[Duxus]

...so why not see if he can roll that 20?
I think V might, but Monster-san won't be that lucky... I would have chosen otherwise, but you know...

[derfenrirwolv]

Am I the only one thinking O-chul is pretty much an idiot for blindly marching to a pointless death when he could escape and continue to fight and help others?

A real paladin is not so much a warrior as a walking ideal. They live to show people how to live and do the right through example. If they wanted to contribute to the downfall of evil by blasting things apart, they'd be better off as wizards. A paladins real power is to influence the hearts of others.

O'chul Recognizes that Monster-san is basically good, but just has no life experience to show him what that is. O'chuls real plan isn't to cast bless weapon and bash Xykon in the head with it (though he very well may try that) its a twofold plan to

1) Give the monster 200% concentrated, lifetime dose "this is how a man should act, boy" lesson, all in the 6 seconds its going to take team evil to blow him apart.

2) To show the monster that team evil is, in fact, evil by making them destroy someone the monster likes and is fond of, right in front of his eyes, in such a way as to burst his protective bubble of ignorance.

Monster-san is more powerful than the entire resistance combined. Inspiring him is more important than inspiring the resistance.

[Yiuel]

No, it's O-Chul. Japanese, not Irish. Even if for some reason you can't accept that, you should at least go by what the comic says: O-Chul.

Definitely not Japanese. Especially a final "l".

However, I do agree with you that it's not Irish.

[Deuce]

I'm thinking


That O-Chul is going for the phylactery. Plot reason, not game mechanics. Xykon just got done telling V about the need to do everything you can to avoid "The Big Fire Down Below". Smash the phylactery, and now Xykon is just a finite number of hit points away from Hell (well, probably the Abyss, but you get the point).

Of course, I'd be OK with him going all Hank Aaron on Xykon's skull and forcing another "Xykon has to regenerate" sub-plot. Xykon's head getting busted has some running gag potential.

[Shadowcaller]

Ah, but if O-chul is genre savvy he will indeed attack the target I recommended


because then he would know that Xykon and Redcloak are protected by plot shields.

For cryin' out loud, Xykon's plot shield was sufficient to save him from utter destruction at the hands of the single most powerful mortal magic user *ever to walk the world*.

So I'd go for Tsukiko. It's obvious X and R are plot-shielded until close to the strip climax -- and the characters do know they are in a comic strip. By contrast, Tsukiko may not be plot-shielded.

I can attack any of them to achieve the goal of distracting attention from V. But Tsukiko is the only one I have an actual chance at taking out of the game.

Players of Chris Roberts' games will have encountered the phenomenon. Those games were known for putting in villain starships with the 'invulnerable' flag set (example: Starlancer, Mission 21 or so, when Ivan Petrov shows up in a fighter for the first time). You could waste ammunition on them all day and achieve nothing. So unless it was the right mission, you were better off gunning for the mooks you *could* actually hurt.


And that's why I'd go for my chosen target rather than the others.


Well, killing Tsukiko would be meaningless since RC would just raise her from the dead again.

[dancrilis]

Well, killing Tsukiko would be meaningless since RC would just raise her from the dead again.

It is likely that Redcloak would do the same for Xykon even if Xykon and the Phylactery were destroyed.

[The Pilgrim]

If Miko was able to defeat all the Order of the Stick together...
then O-Chul, who is like 10 levels more badass than her, can defeat all Team Evil single-handed. And ask for more. Jirix for aperitif, Tsukiko for starters, Redcloak as first course and Xykon as main course. Luckly for V the splice has already vanished, otherwise O-Chul would eat hir as desserts.

Also remember that the Resistance is also lead by a Paladin. "When it comes to doing what it's Right, trust your instincts". The Gods should have given Thanh a signal to attack already!

Go O-Chul!

(won't happen, but a man can dream)

[Shadic]

Hey look, i just regrew a finger. Guess which one?
Seriously people, i don't care if the stick IS a class feature. Take it out and move on.
Are you really just stubborn enough to continue to spell something incorrectly because you dislike being corrected? THAT sounds more like a Stupid-Good Paladin than anything.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

An overall nice comic, not counting the mispelled "Sunburst" spell in the first panel.

[Snake-Aes]

Hey look, i just regrew a finger. Guess which one?

O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'Chul O'Chul O'Chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'chul O'Chul O'Chul O'Chul

Seriously people, i don't care if the stick IS a class feature. Take it out and move on.

Well, this case it really is that You are simply wrong by calling O-Chul "O'Chul". O-Chul's been O-Chul since his very first apparition, and it never derived from that.

[Shadowcaller]

It is likely that Redcloak would do the same for Xykon even if Xykon and the Phylactery were destroyed.

Well, that would take much longer time (120 days I belive) and I never even argued that the Phylactery was a better target in the first place.

[Beren]

Alright, I'm frustrated. I can't see #654! The last comic showing for me is #653. I've even tried modifying the URL for 653, but I still get nothing! Is this happening for anyone else?

[The MunchKING]

I'd go with spear-through-the-chest on Redcloak. Hopefully busting the Phylactery in the process. :smallwink:

[Angelus-alvus]

My first post here and English is my second language, so please don't mind grammar mistakes.
I've been thinking. No matter how much I would love to see MiTD beat the crap out of Xykon and Redcloak, it won't happen so soon.
MiTD is powerful enough to kill Redcloak and doing that he can easily destroy Xykon's phylactery. And then, he can pretty much destroy Xykon and by doing that he'll destroy two of the main villains.
My guess is that O-chul will die and The MiTD will just goes berserk and destroy the tower with V inside. Xykon will trick the oots so they'll think that it was ALL MiTD's fault. Then it'll happen an epic battle between a pissed MiTD and oots. Then the oots kill the MiTD and then it/he/she will finally meet O-chul in heaven.

[Estelindis]

Perhaps you could actually bother to READ the post that spawned that comment? I wasn't nitpicking and correcting someone's spelling. I was answering the question "How are they going to hit anything with -10 on the power attack"

Answer: Because its O'chul.
I already acknowledged another poster who (quite rightly) pointed out to me the true emphasis of your post, although clearly you didn't bother to read that. :smallwink:


Gotcha. That makes more sense.

[David Argall]

If Miko was able to defeat all the Order of the Stick together...
then O-Chul, who is like 10 levels more badass than her,




O-Chul was several levels below Miko in badass. He is really good in taking damage, but the need here is dealing it out, and he apparently has much less skill at that.

[derfenrirwolv]

Shadic



Are you really just stubborn enough to continue to spell something incorrectly because you dislike being corrected?

O'chul yes. If people had kept using the correct I might have picked up on it enough times in conversation. But if someone's going to start flailing their arms around and getting snarky with me because they think I'm trying to correct someone's spelling when i clearly was not? Its O'chul from now on.




THAT sounds more like a Stupid-Good Paladin than anything.

Its more of a chaos thing than a good/evil thing and WHAT I'm being corrected on. The important part is the meaning and intent behind the letters, and the concept of what they convey.

Someone wants to tell me that a spell has a material component i forgot about or that the terms of the soul splice say that all cast spells expire with the splice is fine. Speeling mistakes and apostrophes are just anoying. I'm out of school thank you very much. I don't come here to write english papers. I'm done with that.

The fact is that english basically doesn't use the symbols, so they're pretty much all the same thing, a way of designating a stop of some sort in the middle of the word. Getting feathers ruffled because its the wrong `~-_ ' is a step BEYOND caring if the tag has been removed from the mattress. And i think we all know where THAT leads.

Snake Aes


Well, this case it really is that You are simply wrong by calling O-Chul "O'Chul". O-Chul's been O-Chul since his very first apparition, and it never derived from that.

I never stated that it was spelled O'chul. I said "Its O'chul" in response to someone questioning how he was going to hit with a -10 to hit and an improvised weapon.

Someone Interpreted Its O'chul as It's [spelled] O'chul.

The correct intepretation, which was blatently obvious in context (Yes folks, that applies even on the internet) is It's O'chul [How dare you question his ability! A -14 to attack is nothing for O'chul. You should be drawn and quartered for your blasphemy, but that would bring up the possibility of your blood landing on his boots, and you're unworthy to touch him!]

So grats. if seeing it spelled O'chul pierces your uptight little eyeballs like a thousand hot needles, ya'll just tossed some fuel on the fire.

[pendell]

Ah, but the spelling IS important. If I remember my Fridge Logic Goetica, that's one way to torture a demon -- deliberately mis-pronounce its true name. Because the true name of a thing IS the thing on some level, deliberately twisting it twists and hurts the creature.

So when you mis-spell the name of the force of Nature that is O-chul, you are damaging and twisting O-chul himself. And if you want to get someone like Chuck Norris mad at you ... well, by all means, have at it. Just don't expect the rest of us to join you. :)

Tongue FIRMLY in cheek,

Brian P.

[Boogastreehouse]

Your failing at math a bit there.



You're failing at grammar a bit here.



All in fun... •hides•

[Dinvan]

The deamon roach will always hold a speacial place in my heart!

MitD will turn good and kill Mr. X, well i hope not, but hey....

[con-artist]

Hi, everyone. This is my first post after a long period of lurking. Mighty O-chul finally convinced me to write a post.

A debate is going on O-chul's name. It seems that people are not aware where the name comes from.

O-chul is a KOREAN name. Azure city seems to be a mix of Japanese, Korean, and Chinese cultures. Another example of a Korean name is Soon Kim. Hinjo and Miko are Japanese names, and Lien is a Chinese name.

O-chul would be better spelled as O-chol. It sounds similar to Oh Churl (as in churlish).

[Wizardzo]

<3 O'chul and MitD! Be good MitD, be good!!

[jidasfire]

Shadic



O'chul yes. If people had kept using the correct I might have picked up on it enough times in conversation. But if someone's going to start flailing their arms around and getting snarky with me because they think I'm trying to correct someone's spelling when i clearly was not? Its O'chul from now on.




Its more of a chaos thing than a good/evil thing and WHAT I'm being corrected on. The important part is the meaning and intent behind the letters, and the concept of what they convey.

Someone wants to tell me that a spell has a material component i forgot about or that the terms of the soul splice say that all cast spells expire with the splice is fine. Speeling mistakes and apostrophes are just anoying. I'm out of school thank you very much. I don't come here to write english papers. I'm done with that.

The fact is that english basically doesn't use the symbols, so they're pretty much all the same thing, a way of designating a stop of some sort in the middle of the word. Getting feathers ruffled because its the wrong `~-_ ' is a step BEYOND caring if the tag has been removed from the mattress. And i think we all know where THAT leads.

Snake Aes


I never stated that it was spelled O'chul. I said "Its O'chul" in response to someone questioning how he was going to hit with a -10 to hit and an improvised weapon.

Someone Interpreted Its O'chul as It's [spelled] O'chul.

The correct intepretation, which was blatently obvious in context (Yes folks, that applies even on the internet) is It's O'chul [How dare you question his ability! A -14 to attack is nothing for O'chul. You should be drawn and quartered for your blasphemy, but that would bring up the possibility of your blood landing on his boots, and you're unworthy to touch him!]

So grats. if seeing it spelled O'chul pierces your uptight little eyeballs like a thousand hot needles, ya'll just tossed some fuel on the fire.

On a certain level, you're right that it's silly to get worked up over the difference between an apostrophe and a hyphen. But at the same time, going out of your way to spell something wrong just to spite other people doesn't exactly make you look good, either. Not trying to be a jerk, just pointing it out.

[The MunchKING]

I like the cage thing, as it shows another difference between O-chul and Miko. Miko sees a flaw in her cage and assumes Divine Insperation is telling her to get her butt in gear. O-Chul sees a flaw in the bar and thinks "Hmm... That will be useful when the time is right."

Now we'll see which one accomplishes more...

[Estelindis]

I like the cage thing, as it shows another difference between O-chul and Miko. Miko sees a flaw in her cage and assumes Divine Insperation is telling her to get her butt in gear. O-Chul sees a flaw in the bar and thinks "Hmm... That will be useful when the time is right."

Now we'll see which one accomplishes more...
Nice observation! That does show the differences between their characters very skilfully. :smallsmile:

In the commentary of War and XPs, the Giant said that one specific strip featuring O-Chul gave a huge clue at to his function in the next book's story arc. I'm still not entirely sure which strip that was! Was it the one where Hinjo said that O-Chul was the toughest member of the Sapphire Guard? This points towards O-Chul's role as the one who endures all for the sake of duty. Or maybe the one where O-Chul has his sobering conversation with Haley? This shows that even heroes die... and may point towards O-Chul choosing to fight even if it means his death. Or is it some other strip / theme again?

[fractal]

Ah, but the spelling IS important. If I remember my Fridge Logic Goetica, that's one way to torture a demon -- deliberately mis-pronounce its true name. Because the true name of a thing IS the thing on some level, deliberately twisting it twists and hurts the creature.

So when you mis-spell the name of the force of Nature that is O-chul, you are damaging and twisting O-chul himself. And if you want to get someone like Chuck Norris mad at you ... well, by all means, have at it. Just don't expect the rest of us to join you. :)
Ah, but O-Chul has been tolerating being called Mr. Stiffly, even. A simple misplaced punctuation mark would hardly strain his patience. He would just endure the indignity and move on.

As far as O-Chul accomplishing more than Miko when he escapes, remember that she blew up an entire castle, endangered the fabric of the universe, and saved Team Evil from destruction. It's going to be hard to top that.

[The MunchKING]

Ah, but O-Chul has been tolerating being called Mr. Stiffly, even. A simple misplaced punctuation mark would hardly strain his patience. He would just endure the indignity and move on.

Ah but that's because it is NOT a mispronounciation of his REAL name, but an Alias. All supernatural creatures LOVE aliases, because it gives people a way to refer to them with out using their True Name (which would give them power over it.)

[Callista]

I'm enjoying the L-versus-C grammar war as much as anyone, but could we maybe get back to discussing O-Chul's possible strategy?

(Yep. L here.)

For example, are we counting in the possible effect of a Charge? O-Chul isn't going to be worried about his nonexistent armor class, so he can only benefit.

[Adeen]

I like the cage thing, as it shows another difference between O-chul and Miko. Miko sees a flaw in her cage and assumes Divine Insperation is telling her to get her butt in gear. O-Chul sees a flaw in the bar and thinks "Hmm... That will be useful when the time is right."

Now we'll see which one accomplishes more...

Very good observation. Further proof that he is the most awesome Paladin evah!!!

[wootage]

Heh, that is a good point.

But don't forget poor Jirix (the one and only Hobgoblin with a name).

But then again Jirix wouldn't hold the same attraction and traitorous Tsukiko true (I'd actually like to see Jirix survive. But then again I want O-Chul and all of them to live).

Did you say Jirix? Because it looks a lot like his name is Jinx now :smallbiggrin:

[Nightfall]

And this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_2qFvr3SU&NR=1) as background music.

Actually, I hear the theme from StarshipTroopers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fydd1GTSInI) ....the thrilling, soul-stirring, desperate music that lets you know they're up against impossible odds with no real chance of victory. But they go nonetheless.

[Wadoka]

And there goes the awesomest paladin ever.

Indeed. There, my friends... THERE is a Paladin!

"Stand up, Miss Jem. Your father is passing by."

[Wadoka]

You know, Paladin armed only with a metal bar, against powerful magic user(s)... This just begs for a classical "I, with my pointy stick, will mildly annoy you" reference.

Actually... it's a perfect Moment in Pratchettarianism.

"Get him! He is only a single man!"
"Say that again, guv?"
"What?"
"The part about him being only a single man, guv. Don't you see?"
"See what, you imbecile?"
"Stands to reason, don't it? Single man, armed with just a bent iron bar, overwhelming odds, no chance to win. It bodes."
"WHAT?"
"He's bound to do something heroic any moment now. Swing from the chandelier, shout 'What ho!', say 'I'm not left handed'. Bugger this for a game of soldiers. Attack him your bloody self, guv."
"Get back here!"
"Stuff it, your lordship. My contract don't include getting killed by godsdamned heroes."

This is also a powerful opportunity to bring up some great lines from the original DragonLance books, to wit:

"We do not mourn those who die fulfilling their destiny."

Let his shade to Huma rise.

[Rockphed]

Actually... it's a perfect Moment in Pratchettarianism.

"Stuff it, your lordship. My contract don't include getting killed by godsdamned heroes."

Actually, I would expect Xykon to include such in any employment contracts he has Redcloak draw up. After all, if your minions won't defend you to the death, then what are you paying them for?

[DreadArchon]

And there goes the awesomest paladin ever.
Indeed.

This comic was excellent. It literally brought a tear to my eye.

[texascarl]

Thanks Giant. I needed O-Chul's reminder today.

Awesome strip.

[Thorcrest]

Awesome! It was a thrilling ride for O-Chuul, I won't guess what happens, but I know it will be grand. Oh Great Giant you are awesome. Yourcomics are great!

[Phexar]

Actually, I would expect Xykon to include such in any employment contracts he has Redcloak draw up. After all, if your minions won't defend you to the death, then what are you paying them for?

I'm not sure he actually does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) pay them. :smallbiggrin:

[Tova]

Shadic




Are you really just stubborn enough to continue to spell something incorrectly because you dislike being corrected?


O'chul yes. If people had kept using the correct I might have picked up on it enough times in conversation. But if someone's going to start flailing their arms around and getting snarky with me because they think I'm trying to correct someone's spelling when i clearly was not? Its O'chul from now on.

<wall of text snipped>

So grats. if seeing it spelled O'chul pierces your uptight little eyeballs like a thousand hot needles, ya'll just tossed some fuel on the fire.

A simple "yes" would have done equally well. :smallwink:

[zzyss]

Sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled discussion, but is anybody else having problems seeing this? I'm still getting the 653 comic, leftnav and all.

If I had to guess, giantitp.com received a new IP address when it moved servers, and the DNS information hasn't propagated to Australia??? I've waited more than 24 hours for this!!!

(You can help! Give me the IP address of the new server, so that I can test my theory).

[Saraah]

I really only see this going one way. O'Chul charges in, gets hurt or worse, and The Monster In The Darkness rears his fearsome head to kill things. LOTS of things..

(I skipped a lot of pages of this thread).

[Blackdog]

Sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled discussion, but is anybody else having problems seeing this? I'm still getting the 653 comic, leftnav and all.

If I had to guess, giantitp.com received a new IP address when it moved servers, and the DNS information hasn't propagated to Australia??? I've waited more than 24 hours for this!!!

(You can help! Give me the IP address of the new server, so that I can test my theory).

If you can't resolve the domain name, then how did you get on the forums? It seems more likely that you need to clear your browser cache.

[Selene]

Sounds pretty futile since he has no chance of killing Xykon.

There is no point in throwing away the life of a valuable individual whose skills and abilities can be utilized elsewhere.

Dude? This is Sparta.


But, you know, O-chul is not dumb. Like he said himself, he knows odds are he's gonna bite it. Hell, this is the kind of situation Elan got upset with when Daigo and Kazumi played redshirt heroes! It CALLS for hero death >.>

You know that the Katos are still alive, right? And I'd say they've graduated to blue shirts now. I think O-Chul's got at least as much chance as they did.

[warrl]

Vaarsuvius had 2 Epic mages and, by extension, near unlimited arcane power backing her up and she still couldn't take down Xykon. She sacrificed everything she could for this power, and it still wasn't enough.

O-Chul has a metal bar and his underpants.

And yet I still think that O-Chul stands a better chance. :smallbiggrin:

That's because O-Chul didn't use Wisdom as his dump stat.

[zzyss]

If you can't resolve the domain name, then how did you get on the forums? It seems more likely that you need to clear your browser cache.

Good question. I've taken the discussion into the appropriate part of the forum now: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112017

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion!