O-Chul what a D&D pally should be

[Dreadon]

I have seen a lot badly played paladins in my days and only a few good ones. But i think the Giant has truly captured what a real paladin should be. He has shown us the stereo type of what people think as a pally in Miko; head strong, self righteous, and being a hard @$*! that could make diamonds from coal. Then you have O-Chul; loyal, selfless, kind, willing to do what is necessary for the greater good even if it will get him killed, and a man that is willing to look beyond the darkness :mitd: on the surface and see what is deep within a persons heart. All to often do we see the good or the lawful sides of the paladin played to an extreme. In O-Chul we see them balanced and that is why to me he is a TRUE PALADIN.

[Estelindis]

Well said. I agree. O-Chul is the most amazing depiction of a true, faithful paladin that I have ever seen.*

* Possibly tied with certain characters in Bujold's Chalion series, but they're paladins in a metaphorical sense.

[Dagren]

I have seen a lot badly played paladins in my days and only a few good ones. But i think the Giant has truly captured what a real paladin should be. He has shown us the stereo type of what people think as a pally in Miko; head strong, self righteous, b and a hard @$*! that could make diamonds from coal. Then you have O-Chul; loyal, selfless, kind, willing to do what is necessary for the greater good even if it will get him killed, and a man that is willing to look beyond the darkness on the surface and see what is deep within a persons heart. All to really do we see the good or the lawful sides of the paladin played to an extreme. In O-Chul we see them balanced and that is why to me he is a TRUE PALADIN.Where would Hinjo and Lien fit in there?

[cheesecake]

if we could all be a little more like O-Chul the world would be a much better place.

[[sWc]Konman]

Where would Hinjo and Lien fit in there?

they are palidans, they follow the rules and do everything they need to. but o-chul DEFINES it in a sense.

[Kaytara]

O-Chul is not Lawful Good - the only way to do his valour justice is to acknowledge him as True Good - the one and only paladin.

[Optimystik]

Where would Hinjo and Lien fit in there?

I have little doubt that Hinjo and Lien would perform with similar honor under O-Chul's distressing circumstances. It just so happens that he is the one behind enemy lines, so his actions are given more weight in the narrative.

In other words, all three of them show how D&D paladins should act. Hell, paladins from just about any mythos.

[Starscream]

Heck yeah, next time I play a paladin, it will be with O-Chul firmly in mind.

[EENick]

Well it probably helps that O-Chul clearly didn't use his intelligence for a dumb stat.

[Querzis]

Look at my sig. I have been saying that for years!

[Irate Ranger]

Hinjo is a little young and inexperienced to make the truly perfect paladin (Give him a few years of character development and he'll be a close second, though.) O-chul exemplifies the grizzled hard-ass do-gooder. He doesn't just know wrong from right, he knows how to take the wrong and make it right.

[Flickerdart]

Well it probably helps that O-Chul clearly didn't use his intelligence for a dumb stat.
It doesn't seem that much more above average, but his WIS is surprisingly high for a Fighter. Guess he wanted to keep that Will save up.

[EENick]

It doesn't seem that much more above average, but his WIS is surprisingly high for a Fighter. Guess he wanted to keep that Will save up.

Lets not forget about his crazy high consitution score and apparently decent charisma. One has to wonder what did this guy use as his dumb stat? Dexterity?

[Tingel]

O-Chul is not Lawful Good - the only way to do his valour justice is to acknowledge him as True Good - the one and only paladin.
That's chaotic propaganda. Lawful Good and "True Good" are not mutually exclusive.

O-Chul is meant to be (and succeeds at being) a paragon of the Lawful Good ideal. If you deny that, then I suspect you have a pronounced disdain for Law, but since you cannot help but have a great respect for O-Chul (which proves you sensible), you try to steal him away from what he believes in (i.e. the Lawful Good morality).



One has to wonder what did this guy used as his dumb stat? Dexterity?
According to him it was Charisma.

[petersohn]

Agreed. Hinjo and Lien are good paladins: they do everything a LG character needs to. However, as Irate Ranger said, Hinjo is young and inexperienced. For Lien, she at least once shown to be too Lawful (remember the orc camp?).

Flickerdart: O-Chul is not a fighter but a paladin, and Wis is not a dump stat for them (as they are spellcasters). <-- correct me if I'm wrong

[shadzar]

Duty to god and country before self.

:smallfurious: Die evil scum! Let you reap what the heavens hath brought for you as punishment from years of villainy at the hands of O'Chul!

[Celisasu]

Agreed. Hinjo and Lien are good paladins: they do everything a LG character needs to. However, as Irate Ranger said, Hinjo is young and inexperienced. For Lien, she at least once shown to be too Lawful (remember the orc camp?).

Flickerdart: O-Chul is not a fighter but a paladin, and Wis is not a dump stat for them (as they are spellcasters). <-- correct me if I'm wrong

He's a multiclass fighter/paladin. O-Chul stated that he spent 12 years I believe as a fighter and that's why he used Charisma as his dump stat. He didn't plan on becoming a paladin and thus wouldn't need it for lay on hands or the like. His Wis score as noted still needs to be pretty damn high. I'm betting 16+ personally. And of course his Con score is astronomical.

[Querzis]

Lets not forget about his crazy high consitution score and apparently decent charisma. One has to wonder what did this guy use as his dumb stat? Dexterity?

...hum he said himself he had really bad charisma. Why would you think he got decent charisma? And yeah, just like Roy, I suspect his dexterity his low. I rarely saw a fighter with good dexterity, whats the point when you'll wear a full-plate armor anyway?


Flickerdart: O-Chul is not a fighter but a paladin, and Wis is not a dump stat for them (as they are spellcasters). <-- correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong, O-chul is a fighter with paladin level. You need to read the strips where he talk to Redcloak again, he had quite a few fighter level before he became a paladin.

[factotum]

I rarely saw a fighter with good dexterity, whats the point when you'll wear a full-plate armor anyway?


You don't want your Dexterity to be so low that you start getting a to-hit penalty, though, especially not in a class where your only method of doing any damage is hitting people with various things...

[petersohn]

He's a multiclass fighter/paladin. O-Chul stated that he spent 12 years I believe as a fighter and that's why he used Charisma as his dump stat. He didn't plan on becoming a paladin and thus wouldn't need it for lay on hands or the like. His Wis score as noted still needs to be pretty damn high. I'm betting 16+ personally. And of course his Con score is astronomical.
Thanks for the info.

[Kaytara]

That's chaotic propaganda. Lawful Good and "True Good" are not mutually exclusive.

O-Chul is meant to be (and succeeds at being) a paragon of the Lawful Good ideal. If you deny that, then I suspect you have a pronounced disdain for Law, but since you cannot help but have a great respect for O-Chul (which proves you sensible), you try to steal him away from what he believes in (i.e. the Lawful Good morality).


Whoooah there, hold it with the psychological analysis. An alternative explanation is that I said that he was a "true" good to emphasize his goodness and the fact that he is a true paladin rather than because of wanting to make any statement about the Law/Chaos axis.

[Flickerdart]

What this means is that O-Chul is not an especially good or high-level Paladin, since we don't even see him summon a mount. All he's ever done was Smite Evil. He's most likely a 3rd level Paladin (immune to Fear but not much else), meaning that he's got a handful of Fighter bonus feats. So what did he use them on? Diehard is good thematically but we've seen him drop when he fell into negatives.
I'm still holding out for O-Chul being an optimized Ubercharger that can severely crimp Xykon's style and let V get in that last shot. Sure, Xykon will just regrow his body, since V and O-Chul are probably no match for Redcloak and Jirix right now, but it'll be yet another teamwork lesson for V and we totally don't have enough of those.

[Kornaki]

Easiest explanation is that O'Chul was born in the year of the monkey. The monkey allows 48 point buys

[Zael Zuran]

I've enjoyed the examination of paladin priorities in this comic. If you imagine a subaxis of alignment within Lawful Good, you can envision the motivations of the paladins. (Just a personal observation, not a statement of fact about the author's creation, as I am not currently a mind reader.)

The majority of the Sapphire Guard seem to be standard paladins. An equal mix of Law and Good.

Miko was clearly LAWFUL good. She qualified as lawful good, but clearly valued the LAW more than the GOOD.

O-Chul was her inverse. lawful GOOD. Bordering on neutral good, without departing from the codes of his order's law.

It allows us to examine the variance in the paladin. LAWFUL good is likely to be more prone to act as an instrument of their god to smite wickedness, avenge, enforce, etc. The militant holy warrior.

lawful GOOD, more prone to seek redemption in the redeemable. The martyr. The example that serves to illuminate the darkness.

Assuming the majority of paladins are more or less balanced, it seems obvious that the stronger extremes of LG would serve as the mortal inspirations for their peers.

A pity the paladins never really noticed this before, as a far more effective leadership could be crafted by placing the lawful GOOD in charge of general administration. The LAWFUL good, should be tasked with the military, and specifically defense.

LAWFUL good, as LAW enforcement. lawful GOOD as the judge. LAWFUL GOOD, the jury (or general vote casters in miscellaneous matters).

Case in point, O-Chul seems resigned to accept sacrifice in an effort to inspire the MITD to a life of decency (as well as act as his duty demands.) It seems a waste of such an inspiring individual, who could do far more good alive than dead by steering the paladins to use their abilities to benefit the most.

Miko, on the other hand? She was an abominable judge. Naive, impulsive, prone to swift and final decisions, etc. Miko was however, a brilliant tactician. Easily demonstrated by the ease she dispatched the OOTS on numerous occasions by gathering intel on them and acting on it.

In other words, Miko was determined to uphold the law. How much happier would her story have been, had a paladin like O-Chul been the one informing her of the law she must enforce?

I used to feel Miko was a bad paladin. Not anymore. Given her priorities coupled with her lord's sneaky manner...her fall was almost mandated.

The Sapphire Guard built her into a living weapon with a slavish adherence to the manipulations of a well meaning, but deceitful master. When her entire world view was revealed to be a lie (from her perspective) the only thing that remained was her existence as a weapon. The tragedy wrote itself.

To summarize:

LAWFUL good: The sword.

lawful GOOD: The wisdom to use it or sheathe it as is most effective.

LAWFUL GOOD: To strive to maintain the consensus of the previous two.

(At the very least this arc is probably going to influence my own paladin orders in the future. Thanks, Rich :smallsmile:)

[Vemynal]

Where would Hinjo and Lien fit in there?

lawful stupid imo

[Ancalagon]

Last time I checked the aligment table, there was no "true good" entry. But as paladin, O'Chul is Lawful Good or, well, we would not be a paladin at all (anymore)...

[Flickerdart]

Last time I checked the aligment table, there was no "true good" entry. But as paladin, O'Chul is Lawful Good or, well, we would not be a paladin at all (anymore)...
O-Chul keeps the True Good alignment secret, lest posers discover it and claim to be that as well. On;y O-Chul can be True Good.

[Zael Zuran]

Last time I checked the aligment table, there was no "true good" entry. But as paladin, O'Chul is Lawful Good or, well, we would not be a paladin at all (anymore)...

Well, technically Neutral Good would be "true" good, as it is unbiased in its methodology, instead concerned with Goodness.

But that should not be considered an endorsement of "Most effective" good. Instead its the most flexible good, but like all hybrids, less practiced at the methods employed by its specialized counterparts.

[Zherog]

You don't want your Dexterity to be so low that you start getting a to-hit penalty, though, especially not in a class where your only method of doing any damage is hitting people with various things...

A penalty to Dexterity would only affect ranged attacks.

[krossbow]

Meh; i prefer obi wan myself as a depiction of paladins.

[Zael Zuran]

A penalty to Dexterity would only affect ranged attacks.

I suppose you could intentionally sabotage a character. Does Weapon Finesse have a minimum DEX requirement? Or is it just based on BAB.

A maxminner could theoretically use weapons with horrible accuracy. Presumably, because they crave a challenge, or are simply masochists. :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

How much happier would her story have been, had a paladin like O-Chul been the one informing her of the law she must enforce?

I used to feel Miko was a bad paladin. Not anymore. Given her priorities coupled with her lord's sneaky manner...her fall was almost mandated.

The Sapphire Guard built her into a living weapon with a slavish adherence to the manipulations of a well meaning, but deceitful master. When her entire world view was revealed to be a lie (from her perspective) the only thing that remained was her existence as a weapon. The tragedy wrote itself.

To summarize:

LAWFUL good: The sword.

lawful GOOD: The wisdom to use it or sheathe it as is most effective.

LAWFUL GOOD: To strive to maintain the consensus of the previous two.

(At the very least this arc is probably going to influence my own paladin orders in the future. Thanks, Rich :smallsmile:)

Quoted for truth...that's all I've got. Except that some of the things mentioned (O-Chul's willingness to lay down his life for the greater good) could be expected from most paladins (Miko, Hinjo, and Lien would all do the same).

[Flickerdart]

I suppose you could intentionally sabotage a character. Does Weapon Finesse have a minimum DEX requirement? Or is it just based on BAB.

A maxminner could theoretically use weapons with horrible accuracy. Presumably, because they crave a challenge, or are simply masochists. :smallbiggrin:
Nope, just +1 BAB.

There was a 4E build that tried to get to-hit as low as possible, but I forget what that did. Triggered a secondary power over and over and recovered it, I think.

[kyrin]

O-chul may be Lawful Good, but he is BAD!

I almost feel sorry for whoever is going to get that bar shoved in a very delicate area...

JIM
aka kyrin

[Zael Zuran]

Quoted for truth...that's all I've got. Except that some of the things mentioned (O-Chul's willingness to lay down his life for the greater good) could be expected from most paladins (Miko, Hinjo, and Lien would all do the same).

Thanks. Regarding O-Chul's sacrifice...

I just personally felt it was a waste (speaking as a non paladin). But you are correct. It is wholly in character with ANY paladin.

[Zael Zuran]

Nope, just +1 BAB.

There was a 4E build that tried to get to-hit as low as possible, but I forget what that did. Triggered a secondary power over and over and recovered it, I think.

That's interesting. Is that kind of like a deadly klutz? Something ala the drunken master, but based on inaccuracy and clumsiness? A fun roleplay, at any rate.

[Lizard Lord]

O-Chul is not Lawful Good - the only way to do his valour justice is to acknowledge him as True Good - the one and only paladin.

Isn't Neutral Good sometimes called True Good?

[Optimystik]

You don't want your Dexterity to be so low that you start getting a to-hit penalty, though, especially not in a class where your only method of doing any damage is hitting people with various things...

D&D isn't Diablo - dexterity doesn't matter a hill of beans toward hitting things up close unless you have Weapon Finesse. It even makes more sense, because more strength means you can swing faster, knock shields away, batter through deflective forcefields etc.


lawful stupid imo

That's neither fair nor accurate; I can't envision O-Chul retreating from Azure City or the Orc camp either. H & L may be less experienced, but they are no less cunning or brave than O-Chul is.

I know some people are going to turn this thread into "O-Chul is the only real paladin in OotS!" without examining that Hinjo and Lien would certainly have done the exact same things he did, had they been captured like he was. Remember that a LARGE portion of his badassery comes from the paladin immunity to fear, a trait that the entire Guard shared.

[shadzar]

What this means is that O-Chul is not an especially good or high-level Paladin, since we don't even see him summon a mount.

His poke-ball was probably confiscated along with everything but his boxers.

[RMS Oceanic]

If Hinjo showed us the proper way to roleplay the Lawful Paladin (In 409), then O-Chul has just showed us how to roleplay the Good Paladin.

That's my thoughts on the manner.

[Deliverance]

Well said. I agree. O-Chul is the most amazing depiction of a true, faithful paladin that I have ever seen.*

Have you read the 'Deed of Paksenarrion' trilogy be Elizabeth Moon? It contains several examples of non-stereotypical but "more real" paladins (the titular character being the prime example as we watch her growth through the series).



* Possibly tied with certain characters in Bujold's Chalion series, but they're paladins in a metaphorical sense.
Yes, even unto the paladin of souls.

[Estelindis]

I agree about O-Chul being Lawful GOOD rather than LAWFUL Good. :smallsmile: But, even then, I have to say that he understands duty in the most positive of senses.


Have you read the 'Deed of Paksenarrion' trilogy be Elizabeth Moon? It contains several examples of non-stereotypical but "more real" paladins (the titular character being the prime example as we watch her growth through the series).
Thanks! I'll try that out. :smallsmile: *orders on Amazon*


Yes, even unto the paladin of souls.
Could any book about a queen mother who's just a bit-character in the previous volume be as good as this? (Actually, maybe there is no such other book!)

[Irenaeus]

if we could all be a little more like O-Chul the world would be a much better place.What? Suicidal?:smallwink:

[Cracklord]

Why are you talking about him this way? He's going to win!
Paladins are a class designed to be very effective against the undead. Since the fall of the city, he has been put in life or death situations every day, and he is still alive. That's a lot of encounters. Now, I want you to envision how much XP he must have got out of this. As well as this, he has a ridiculously high Fort and Will save.
As Xykon has recently proved, it's not the power, it's how you use it. He's up against an unoptomised cleric who doesn't even carry a weapon, a mystic theuge who doesn't have any equipment, and a lich who has used plenty of high slots and a lot of health.
OK, he'll probably die, but he could still win.

[krossbow]

Why are you talking about him this way? He's going to win!
Paladins are a class designed to be very effective against the undead. Since the fall of the city, he has been put in life or death situations every day, and he is still alive. That's a lot of encounters. Now, I want you to envision how much XP he must have got out of this. As well as this, he has a ridiculously high Fort and Will save.
As Xykon has recently proved, it's not the power, it's how you use it. He's up against an unoptomised cleric who doesn't even carry a weapon, a mystic theuge who doesn't have any equipment, and a lich who has used plenty of high slots and a lot of health.
OK, he'll probably die, but he could still win.

Ochul has a bar from a presumably nonmagical cage. He won't even be able to dent Xykon except through smites sadly; and even those shouldn't deal too much damage.

[Flickerdart]

After the crushing damage from the hand, the Sunburst and the Superb Dispel backlash, Xykon isn't exactly tip top shape. O-Chul might be able to do enough damage.

[Ceryan]

I think O-Chul will probably die and serve as the catalyst for MitD's illumination. He doesn't even need to die, MitD could just pop on out the first panel of next comic from what we saw of him in 654.

Either way I think V's saved :x.

[Murdim]

Ochul has a bar from a presumably nonmagical cage. He won't even be able to dent Xykon except through smites sadly; and even those shouldn't deal too much damage.Hu hu... bludgeoning damage from the bar (you don't try to thrust or slash with it, do you ?) + Magic Weapon or Bless Weapon, both level 1 Paladin spells :smalltongue:

Of course, that would mean O-Chul has at least 12 in Wisdom (... OK, he HAS at least 12 in Wisdom) and four levels in the Paladin class. And has prepared one of these spells rather than, say, Detect Poison or Endure Elements....

... actually, it's very probable he can overcome X's damage reduction, when you think about it.

[Cracklord]

Or Spiritual weapon, if one of the twelve god's weapon of choice is a steel bar. (Which would be funny)
Besides, liches have damage reduction 15/bludgeoning. And it takes a helluva lot to drop O-Chul. So how many slots does Xykon have left?

[petersohn]

Quoted for truth...that's all I've got. Except that some of the things mentioned (O-Chul's willingness to lay down his life for the greater good) could be expected from most paladins (Miko, Hinjo, and Lien would all do the same).
Yeah, they all do that. The question is, what do each paladin consider as "greater good"? For Miko, it was only the protection of the gate and Shojo's orders. For her, trying to fight Xykon in all means possible would be a priority like for O-Chul, but converting the MitD is certainly not. As for Hinjo, he would simply lack the wisdom to do the same as O-Chul. In the same situation, Hinjo would have gone insane IMO, and he couldn't have acted reasonably when the time came (given he would survive Xykon's games), although he would try his best.

[Dalenthas]

Edit: Err, Spoilers I suppose. Anyhow, I predict...
He's gonna summon his Paladin Mount and Charge Xykon with his improvized spear (note that he didn't squash the roach, he skewered it). Right through the eye hole. Xykon's gonna make a snarky comment, then O'Chul will proceede to smash him to a fine powder... before Redcloak takes him down with a well placed Harm.

[Cracklord]

Still, what a way to go. Of course, if he takes out the phylactery it would be far more concrete.

[derfenrirwolv]

Besides, liches have damage reduction 15/bludgeoning. And it takes a helluva lot to drop O-Chul. So how many slots does Xykon have left?

Its 15 magic and bludgeoning. You need to get both if you want to get through it.

[Twilight Jack]

Its 15 magic and bludgeoning. You need to get both if you want to get through it.

Well, O-Chul's got bludgeoning with his steel bar and can pull down magic so long as he can cast bless weapon.

[derfenrirwolv]

Well, O-Chul's got bludgeoning with his steel bar and can pull down magic so long as he can cast bless weapon.

yup. I'm thinking Xykon's head is starting to look like a ball on a T

FOUR!

[factotum]

D&D isn't Diablo

I'm fully aware of that. The last time I played D&D was before 2nd edition hit the streets, I think I can be excused for forgetting that the Dexterity bonus only applied to ranged attacks!

[Edhelras]

He's a multiclass fighter/paladin. O-Chul stated that he spent 12 years I believe as a fighter and that's why he used Charisma as his dump stat. He didn't plan on becoming a paladin and thus wouldn't need it for lay on hands or the like. His Wis score as noted still needs to be pretty damn high. I'm betting 16+ personally. And of course his Con score is astronomical.

I'm a bit confused. I always believed a Paladin had to start out as a Paladin; you cannot start with another core class and then take a lvl of Paladin. At least it says so in the PHB, if I remember correctly (I don't have the PHB right here, but I was reading it last night).
So if O-Chul took Ftr lvls, he must have taken them after his Pally years, and then cannot add any more Pally lvls thereafter.

[Edhelras]

I agree that O-Chul is probably coolest Paladin I've ever seen, although I think there are examples that he might be just a tad too pragmatic at times. I guess it comes from his Ftr lvls, perhaps, or the theory that inside the LG category, he leans towards Good more than Lawful.

Lien seems to me pretty much like O-Chul, only not so darned cool and bad-ass. Give her a few more years (and grow a bald head...) and she'll catch up.
Hinjo, on the other hand, seems sometimes to lack that stalwart determination that you'd want in a true Paladin, the influence of his CG uncle seems to get the better of him at times.

Miko, on the other hand, is in my view just as archetypical a Paladin as O-Chul is. She demonstrates clearly how a Paladin is supposed to be a pain-in-the-butt to her comrades, because of her unflinching preoccupation with Law and fighting Evil, her lack of ability to compromise. And - so beautifully depicted in OOTS - her vulnerability to fall, just for those reasons. This is after all an age-old theme: The glorious, impeccable hero who ends up falling so low - ever since the Greek tragedies we've seen that again and again.

IMO both O-Chul and Miko are so well done they should serve as images of Paladinhood forever after.

[paddyfool]

I'm a bit confused. I always believed a Paladin had to start out as a Paladin; you cannot start with another core class and then take a lvl of Paladin. At least it says so in the PHB, if I remember correctly (I don't have the PHB right here, but I was reading it last night).
So if O-Chul took Ftr lvls, he must have taken them after his Pally years, and then cannot add any more Pally lvls thereafter.

No, the restriction is more specific than that. Any LG character may take levels in paladin regardless of prior levels of any other class; however, once you've taken at least one level in paladin, if you then take a level in any other class (except for some specific prestige classes), you can't then take any further levels in paladin, as it says in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org):


Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

And O'Chul does indeed rock. I wonder, however, without going into the usual silliness, what he was like before he became a paladin; there's doubtless a decent backstory there somewhere.

What I'm worried will happen, however, is that his release is just a response to the forum, and that Xykon takes him down with a simple wave of his hand (or a paralyzing touch).

[Callista]

O-Chul sounds to me like he must have started out as a common soldier, and simply gotten promoted to the point where he was invited to join the Sapphire Guard.


Well it probably helps that O-Chul clearly didn't use his intelligence for a dumb stat.I've actually played a paladin with INT 7. It wasn't too hard; with a good Wisdom, you know enough to look to smarter people for advice, and to choose smarter people who are Good enough not to lead you wrong. It was a different experience; many Paladins end up as party leaders in good aligned parties, but this one was more of a "loyal bodyguard" type (and damage absorber, because when I dumped the INT, I definitely did not dump the CON.)

O-Chul's big advantage is the fact that he doesn't think of himself as awfully important. That, and lots of experience cleaning litter boxes.

What? Doesn't make sense? Simple: You just cannot survive repeated, escapable humiliation and torture with your ego getting in the way. Care too much about yourself, and you either escape or suicide.

Hinjo and Lien would probably behave in similar ways, but not exactly the same things as O-Chul. I think Hinjo would be far more likely to take a tactical approach, perhaps focusing on creating the slave revolt that O-Chul may have inadvertently caused; and Lien might be a little more impatient and straightforward (she's younger and not used to commanding people like Hinjo and O-Chul are), focusing on killing as many guards as possible and maybe going for one of the higher ups if she could.

I'm not sure whether they would both have enough compassion to see the MitD as a redeemable creature, but it's rather likely that they would, since neither one is the smite-on-sight type. It might take them a little longer to get past human-centric prejudice, though.

I don't see either one lasting nearly as long as O-Chul, at least with sanity intact. Weeks, at most--which is still a great deal longer than your average Commoner, who generally goes nuts sometime within the first couple days.

[Edhelras]

No, the restriction is more specific than that. Any LG character may take levels in paladin regardless of prior levels of any other class; however, once you've taken at least one level in paladin, if you then take a level in any other class (except for some specific prestige classes), you can't then take any further levels in paladin, as it says in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org):

Are you sure about that? I agree that the SRD doesn't mention it, nor the DnDWiki. But I so remember reading about it in the PHB last night, that Paladin is something you start out as. Can anyone with the PHB check it out, or do you know it intimately enough to be certain?
I won't be too certain myself, 'cause I never had much love for the pallies before. O-Chul (and Miko!) have really made me rethink that position...

[Callista]

Paddyfool's right, at least in 3.5 terms (don't know what 4th ed says). If you're LG, you can take Paladin levels, no matter how many levels you have in other classes. Some prestige classes let you go back to Paladin levels after you've taken levels in them, but usually, the problem's if you take levels in something else afterward, not what you were before. Starting out as something else and then taking pally levels is an interesting combination because the early level powers are useful even at higher levels.

Allowed:
Fighter 1, then Paladin 1
Paladin 1, then Fighter 1

Not allowed:
Paladin 1, then Fighter 1, then Paladin 2

(Corrected. Thanks.)

[Edhelras]

Hm, I remain unconvinced until I get home to check my PHB. I'm talking 3.5 ED, just to be clear (won't touch 4ED with a pointy jailbar).

Nitpicking: It IS allowed to go Pal 1 then Ftr , then Ftr 2 etc.
What is not allowed, is to go like this: Pal 1, Ftr 1, Pal 2 etc.

So I'll go home to check out whether Ftr 1, Pal 1 is allowed...

[Callista]

Oh. Yes. Yes, you're correct. You can't take another paladin level after you've taken anything else. Sorry, I guess my example was a bit wrong.

[pjackson]

Allowed:
Fighter 1, then Paladin 1

Not allowed:
Paladin 1, then Fighter 1

Both are allowed.
This is not allowed.

Paladin 1, Fighter 1, Paladin 2.

[Cracklord]

Anyway, the real beauty of O-Chul is that he simply endures. Torture him, threaten him, try to scare him, humiliate him, it will have no effect. He will simply weather it, but neither will he stop fighting. He can't be reasoned with, he can't be corrupted, he can't be threatened, he can't be stopped. It doesn't matter what they try, O-Chul will keep on coming.
:xykon:He's like a Rolex watch, Jackie Chan and the energizer bunny rolled into one.

[petersohn]

Miko, on the other hand, is in my view just as archetypical a Paladin as O-Chul is. She demonstrates clearly how a Paladin is supposed to be a pain-in-the-butt to her comrades, because of her unflinching preoccupation with Law and fighting Evil, her lack of ability to compromise. And - so beautifully depicted in OOTS - her vulnerability to fall, just for those reasons. This is after all an age-old theme: The glorious, impeccable hero who ends up falling so low - ever since the Greek tragedies we've seen that again and again.
I think just the contrary. While O-Chul is what a paladin should be, Miko is what one shouldn't. O-Chul is an example of a well played pally, and Miko is a parody of badly played ones. Still, while being a parody, she has a nice character development.

[Callista]

There's no reason you have to play a near-perfect Paladin; you can play one like Miko and deliberately get close to falling and be just as good a player. You just have to be sure that you're annoying only the characters, not the players, and that you plan (plot and mechanics) for the inevitable redemption-or-corruption when you lose your standing as a paladin. I mean, you're not a bad player if you play an evil character; why should you be a bad player if you play a paladin that's not an exemplar of LG? Miko is a fascinating character. She's not a perfect paladin, but as a character, she's very well done. She's what happens when you give someone power they're not mature enough to handle.

[Snake-Aes]

There's no reason you have to play a near-perfect Paladin; you can play one like Miko and deliberately get close to falling and be just as good a player. You just have to be sure that you're annoying only the characters, not the players, and that you plan (plot and mechanics) for the inevitable redemption-or-corruption when you lose your standing as a paladin. I mean, you're not a bad player if you play an evil character; why should you be a bad player if you play a paladin that's not an exemplar of LG? Miko is a fascinating character. She's not a perfect paladin, but as a character, she's very well done. She's what happens when you give someone power they're not mature enough to handle.
True, but the stereotype Miko derives from started with bad players that interpret the paladin code toooooooooooooooo harshly.


Nothing's funnier than pickpocketing near the paladin though >: D

[Edhelras]

What is the point of "giving" the Paladin the possible fate of falling, if everyone plays a Paladin like O-Chul (who might still fall, of course, but hasn't shown much tendencies towards it so far)?

I would say Miko is an example of a fantastically played Paladin, an incredibly well-done illustration of the path towards the fall. She did everything the way she was supposed to, yet not, and she fell, horribly. If you were either her player, or if one of your comrades was playing her - say, wouldn't you remember that campaign forever? If she was played so well as she is depicted in the comic?

I think the "badly played Paladin" might be over-interpreted often. It's not badly played if you stick to Lawfulness to a degree that seems foreign to most other characters. It's not badly played if your character ends up with a lot of disputes with the party Rogue. It might be annoying, if the other players in the group simply desires a simple game of hack&slash, or they enjoy solving riddles&traps, or they simply dislike intra-party banter. So it may be easy to play a Paladin badly, if you're so caught up in your own desires, and forget that it's just a game, all about having fun.

In my mind, "badly played Paladin" is most often displayed when the Paladin is played by a too Lawful, too self-centred player. Which can often happen.
If you were playing Miko, you ought to evaluate your fellow players thoroughly - do they find any joy in having a rigid chick like that in the game, or is she just causing delays and lack of fun in the game?

[Laughing Dragon]

O'Chul is great, and his memory will always be honored because he provides an example to which ALL good people (game characters, and human beings) can and should aspire to.

Miko will also be remembered ... but for all the wrong reasons. She was harsh, judgemental, and a pain in EVERYONE'S a$$, even the other paladins. She WAS good in a fight, as long as her motivations were clear.

So, how would you like to be remembered, as an awesome example of future behavior, or as someone who causes everyone to use lots of oxygen every time you leave a room (heaving sighs of relief)?

[Edhelras]

Just to state the obvious: I was wrong (about Paladins taking other classes before hearing the call of paladinhood). As usual.... Well, the upside is that all this paladin-talk makes me just want to spend more time playing a pally.... :smallsmile:

[Klytus]

Lets not forget about his crazy high consitution score and apparently decent charisma. One has to wonder what did this guy use as his dumb stat? Dexterity?

Maybe he rolled dice for his stats the old fashioned way and got really lucky, so his "dump stat" is a 13? :)

[petersohn]

O'Chul is great, and his memory will always be honored because he provides an example to which ALL good people (game characters, and human beings) can and should aspire to.

Miko will also be remembered ... but for all the wrong reasons. She was harsh, judgemental, and a pain in EVERYONE'S a$$, even the other paladins. She WAS good in a fight, as long as her motivations were clear.

So, how would you like to be remembered, as an awesome example of future behavior, or as someone who causes everyone to use lots of oxygen every time you leave a room (heaving sighs of relief)?

Two words: Belkar Bitterleaf. He is what you described, as his alignment reflects. Yes, it is interesting to deliberately play a character who will eventually change their alignment. To deliberately playing a Miko or an Anakin Skywalker.

As a "badly-played" paladin, I was refering to players who play a LG character (especially a paladin) because they want to become the "super hero" and be accepted by the LG society as one. But they, as not good enough roleplayers, play their own ego into their character, thus producing a Miko-like character.

On the other hand, as Miko started out as a parody of this kind of players, later she became more of a well-developed character: someone whose player deliberately plays a"bad" paladin.

[Kreistor]

Well, the suggestion that O'Chul is going to whack on Xykon is interesting, I just don't see it. HTat's a pry bar in his hands. He's going to lever the rock off V, Lay on Hands, and then provide cover so that V can escape via Teleport, hopefully going with V, but probably sacrificing himself to the ire of his enemies.

Whatever he does, it needs to happen fast or quietly. There's three powerful casters in taht room, any of which could Hold him, or perform other nastiness that would stop him cold.

[Snake-Aes]

V can't teleport.

[Optimystik]

Maybe he rolled dice for his stats the old fashioned way and got really lucky, so his "dump stat" is a 13? :)

I doubt his charisma is even that high. Even putting aside the scars and grizzledom levels, he is very stoic and not very personable. Sure he got the MitD to like him, but that's an easy Diplomacy check if I ever saw one; it likes everyone, even the guys that locked it up and the ones it was supposed to eat.

As for his smiting, Charisma only boosts his chance to hit. If his AB is high enough (and with his fighter feats and high BAB, it should be) then he won't need it, so his low cha won't count much towards his smite effectiveness. I put him at a 10 or lower.

[sum1won]

if we could all be a little more like O-Chul the world would be a much better place.

You get the scarred and nearly naked bald old man bits, ok? I'll take everything else.

[Iranon]

I find O-Chul a believable and very admirable character. He never seems let anything get in the way of his quiet dignity - not prejudice, not discomfort, not pride, not an exaggerated sense of duty (he's admitted he's powerless in situations where more drvien characters would have lost it).

I'm wondering whether he's a deliberate antithesis of Miko...

- Unassuming and calm rather than a zealot
- Rising up through the ranks instead of being someone's protege
- Build-wise: Able to soak it up rather than dish it out
- Erring on the side of inaction rather than action
- Solemn in anticipation of battle rather than a daredevil
- More concern with dedemption than punishment

[dancrilis]

- More concern with dedemption than punishment
The MitD has not done anything that means it needs redemption, and unlike our flying friend here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) he was never once shown trying to convince Redcloak or Xykon to give up there evil ways and become agents of good.

[Imgran]

Lets not forget about his crazy high consitution score and apparently decent charisma. One has to wonder what did this guy use as his dumb stat? Dexterity?


Luck :smallbiggrin:

[Callista]

As a "badly-played" paladin, I was refering to players who play a LG character (especially a paladin) because they want to become the "super hero" and be accepted by the LG society as one. But they, as not good enough roleplayers, play their own ego into their character, thus producing a Miko-like character.I did exactly that once! It was quite interesting. The character was one of my first, so it wasn't like I knew better; but, basically, I (and my character) got too cocky and didn't defend the party well enough--two of them died and my character died to save a third. She didn't lose her powers--DM's prerogative; it was a borderline case anyhow--but once we got a resurrection, I had her spend quite a while deliberately acting in a supportive role and letting others have the glory. It was a good lesson for both character and player. :) Also, I learned just how much more interesting a support character is to play than one that's just focused on damage.

[Alex Warlorn]

O-Chul is for all practical purposes is Miko's philosophical counter point within the confines the paladin order. Miko is what people THINK a paladin is in story telling, O-Chul is what a paladin in story telling SHOULD be.

[Scarlet Knight]

V can't teleport.

O-Chul doesn't know that. He saw V teleport in.

O-Chul reminds me of the classic old mentor who teaches the young hero what being a hero is really about. Life lessons have taught him that not everything is simply good or evil (lawful/chaos?) , how not to be too hasty in judgement, etc. Basically one who has had their zeal tempered with hard earned wisdom.

Now go, Mr. Stiffly, and show Xykon where Miko kept her iron bar! :smallamused:

[Trizap]

eh, I've my own version of the paladin: the kind that regards his paladin code, not as everything he is, but only just a part of him, a paladin who recognizes that his job is not his whole being, that the code is not restrictions to follow but
a goal to work towards, a work in progress so to speak, the the paladin code is more of a light at the end of the tunnel to walk towards, a more relaxed paladin.

but O-Chul is pretty cool to.

[Callista]

I think your average paladin is probably best suited for the job if he became a paladin simply because he believed in the code, or something very much like it, to begin with, long before he ever got the shining armor and extraplanar horse. He'd be the sort of person where you'd say, "Becoming a paladin is the kind of thing he would do." It's in his nature. He'd be honorable, just, and kind even if it weren't for the code. It's just that the code embodies what he stands for, so he naturally embraces it.

[factotum]

I doubt his charisma is even that high. Even putting aside the scars and grizzledom levels, he is very stoic and not very personable.

He explicitly stated in comic #545 that Charisma is his dump stat, because he was a fighter for 12 years before becoming a paladin and it seemed a safe choice.