Punch Out The Wizard!

[The Mormegil]

Afro, don't you already got what you needed? Something to bypass contingencies, something to kill shapechange and all the other things you listed... should work, right? Anything left?

[afroakuma]

I think so, but frankly I don't know. I don't know if I missed something major.

[Voldecanter]

another suggestion : Petition the god Vecna so he can dig up dirt on this wizard for you , so you can learn this wizard's secrets . "know all his secrets" bypass his apparent-all knowingness , maybe vecna will give you the source so you could get that yourself , and duke it out with Magic Items and Magic Spells that will shake the earth under the epicness of the whole fight .

[afroakuma]

Vecna's not home.

[Voldecanter]

mmm ok , I want to use the "Incantations Variant" and have all my Party Members to aid another in a home-brewed written Incantation that will Deal ability dmg and Level drains to this wizard , My Party Attempts this incantation , this incantation also has the consequence of backlash damage and let's say insanity , so this is a one-try or your screwed type plan .

[afroakuma]

It also has the consequence that the wizard knows about it.

Seriously: this has nothing to do with the rules. At all.

[Voldecanter]

Can you punch out the wizard?

If not, what would you need to be able to do so? (Note: This question is not "what deficiencies would the wizard need" but rather "what would you need to be able to do?")


ok so if we can not simply de-buff the wizard in hope for any chance that we apparently don't have . Perhaps we need to find sources of power that the wizard would know that we are after , and would pursue them in order to obtain their own power for himself , but perhaps these challegnes may serve too challenging to the wizard and he may become weakened , if he couldn't obtain the item or power source for himself , then perhaps our group of adventurers(more numberous and have more flexability than a lvl 20 wizard) might be able to obtain these sources of power and go defeat the wizard .

I can assume that lvl 20 items+ are well guarded and by creatures that could challenge the wizard .

- Demi-gods that are on the matierial plane and have the matierial plane as their home plane wouldn't be as powerful as actual gods right , so maybe you should go get them and kill them in hopes of obtaining their power , and the wizard knows this -corect?- The wizard in his "all-knowingness" would be giddy about this power grab and go after them , he would battle it out with them -alone , with no party- and it may possibly be too much for him to handle . and even if he does kill a demi-god and obtains their power , don't you think the other demi-gods would catch whif of this and hunt him down with you .

now I want to tackle this issue of all knowingness I take it that this is actual all-knowingness and not "can only read intents" much like the push movie dicates is a good way to bypass all-knowingness .

[DragoonWraith]

You can't 'get' something if you're not familiar with everything involved.

I don't usually go into the Homebrew forum, and I'm willing to bet that not everyone else does.
I've never been there, ever. I only joined this forum like five weeks ago, and I've been playing D&D for even less time than that. But I thought his "what would you need to change in order to pull it off" was pretty obvious.

[EarFall]

Wizard with an AC of 20? O_O Even casual GLANCE at the rules will tell you that's not true. It is, in fact, very feasbile to have an AC in the high 40's low 50's without TOO much cheese. I'm sure with TONS of cheese it could be over 100. Honestly, I don't cheese, and my level ONE wizards CAN have over 20 AC, though for rather short periods of time... mage armor, shield, and dex....

[imp_fireball]

Anti-Magic Field is a pretty horrible idea. 10' emanation basically just disables any magic items you have removing the small inkling of hope you've got to win.

The solution is simple: Enhance the range (double or triple) and create a bit of freespace that you occupy of which can be covered up at will (essentially an antimagic donut that can close its hole instead of a circle).

Grapple and knife.

[Eldariel]

The solution is simple: Enhance the range (double or triple) and create a bit of freespace that you occupy of which can be covered up at will (essentially an antimagic donut that can close its hole instead of a circle).

Widen is really the only range increase, and it merely doubles it. Also, any self-respecting Wizard is able to keep you away from him. Much better to act at range. Seriously, what's with people always trying Anti-Magic Fields in killing Wizards? And Grappling? If you could get him to AMF, you could just hit him, and if you could Grapple him, you could just kill him. Why go the hard way?

[Voldecanter]

afroakuma , is this wizard a specialist ? If so maybe finding a way to one up him will lie in the magics the wizard can't use .

[afroakuma]

The ways I'm looking for to one-up the wizard are not in currently available rules.

Specifically, I'm looking to one-up the wizard by examining what he does and in what manner would it need to be taken down?

[Gaiyamato]

I recommend you go re-read the rules on stacking bonuses, because this is so wrong it's painful. Bonuses always stack as long as they're not the same type of bonus, so the wizard can be sporting an Armor bonus (from Mage Armor), a Shield bonus (from Shield), a Deflection bonus (from a Ring of Protection or a spell of Protection from [Your Alignment]), a Natural Armor bonus (from an Amulet of Natural Armor), plus dodge bonuses, luck bonuses, sacred/profane bonuses....wizards can send their AC through the stratosphere without too much trouble if they want to.

Before I continue I'll point out that I did not actually mention magic items at all in my post. Only spells. He is only a level 20 wizard so does not have access to any epic spells.
All of the spells give either an armor, deflection or holy/profane bonus.
Bonuses do not stack with the same type of bonus, you only chose the highest number for each bonus type.

You made some very bad assumptions against things that I have not even mentioned.
So before you start putting on airs and getting insulting or offensive in your posts I would suggest that you instead carefully actually read the posts that you intend to respond to.

Nothing I mentioned in my post was incorrect under the rules. Feel free to try and find something. Though I'm betting that you lot didn't actually read my post at all, just skimmed it for one line and responded on that based on the contents of your post. I wonder if that is also what you did when you read the rules?

-----------------------

So this Wizard has unlimited magic items and funds as well? Why even bother?
My point was he could focus entirely on his AC with everything he has under standard level 20 cash and get his AC above 50, BUT then he has little else (though his magic is probably enough).
A touch attack ignores quite a good chunk of that AC anyway.

If he wants to keep to low cost items you'll find though that a lot of them are the same type of bonus, but if he has unlimited funds then he can easily have well over 50 AC. :P

Anyway, even if the Wizard has an AC of 40 say, the Halflings would only need to roll 9+ on each roll to hit. lol. Flurry of blows gives them 2 attacks each. Thats 12 rolls a turn (assuming they are all able, which is probably unlikely). Even with average rolls they will clobber the average wizard in at most 2 rounds if his AC is 40. And 40 is a pretty big AC. You look at a lot of CR 20 creatures and you won't get that sort of AC except in a rare few. Even NPC epic level or high level wizards from campaign sets dont get anywhere near that, most PC wizards only manage such things if the DM has been stupid and given out insane volumes of cash or done something else silly. It really is quite a silly concept.

But if this wizard has infinite resources, infinite troops guarding him, knows your coming and has exactly the spells needed to counter each and every little thing you can think of (not to mention that he has every spell in all of existence in his books and has infinite spell slots it seems), there are no gods to help, we have no spellcasters (none to speak of anyway max CL 5 is worthless at level 20), extremely limited resources and no idea what the wizard can do or has, then this whole thread is a waste of time. lol.

Just make some fighters, give them some random weapons and watch them die.

However I think you lot are over-estimating the capabilities of a Wizard. (you need to read more oots. lol.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Before I continue I'll point out that I did not actually mention magic items at all in my post. Only spells. He is only a level 20 wizard so does not have access to any epic spells.
All of the spells give either an armor, deflection or holy/profane bonus.
Bonuses do not stack with the same type of bonus, you only chose the highest number for each bonus type.And at 20th level WBL is 760K GP. Assuming he won't have magic items is...wrong. Besides, you said 20 AC. A Grey Elf Wizard built with 28 pt-buy will have +1 Reduce Person, +6 Dex(16 starting, +4 from Cat's Grace, +2 size), +4 Mage Armor, +2 Magic Circle against X, +4 Shield(he knows you're coming, he has time to buff), meaning Core, no spells above 3rd level, no Shapechanging, no items, 27 AC. With no optimization, just off the top of my head.
So this Wizard has unlimited magic items and funds as well? Why even bother?760K isn't unlimited, but it's pretty close. A +5 Tome, a Belt of Magnificance, a few Metamagic Rods, a Blessed Book, and what else would he spend his money on? Scrolls and Wands are another, say 100K, but really, when you don't need a +10 weapon, you have a lot more options.
But if this wizard has infinite resources, infinite troops guarding him, knows your coming and has exactly the spells needed to counter each and every little thing you can think of (not to mention that he has every spell in all of existence in his books and has infinite spell slots it seems), there are no gods to help, we have no spellcasters (none to speak of anyway max CL 5 is worthless at level 20), extremely limited resources and no idea what the wizard can do or has, then this whole thread is a waste of time. lol.No one has gone infinite. Most of the spells prepared are designed for defense, true, but it's been rare in this thread when someone pulled out something that is truly situational, other things like Shapechange, Celerity, Contingency, Time Stop, all have great effectiveness in a wide variety of situations. And a 20th level Wizard is looking at 6 9th and 8th level slots, and more slots of the lower levels. For an encounter with 4 opponents of equal CR. Alone. He's justified in using the occasional scroll, too. He may even have Planar Bond Demons, Mindraped Dragons, and Reanimated Awakened Warblade Skeletons defending him, but since he can have a near-infinite number of those fairly easily, most people haven't even bothered trying to figure out a way around them.

Keep in mind that while the Wizard has a huge amount of spells for researching your capabilities, you don't have ways of researching his. You can(maybe through skill checks or something, and hope he doesn't spoof those), figure out what school he specialized in, what schools he banned, but by 20th, his spell book is more like a small library, meaning that while your main character options(feats and levels) are set for him to learn, his best options(spells) he can re-choose each day, meaning you may go into battle prepared to see through his best illusions, and ignore is potent fire spells, so he only prepares the minimum 1 illusion/level, and uses Cone of Cold instead(not actually a viable Wizard strategy, btw). He can rearange each day(more often if he leaves slots open), you can re-arange...when, exactly?

[Gaiyamato]

Yes, ok. Infinite was the wrong word.
But a Wizard has such a vast array of options to begin with. At high levels they are easily the most powerful of all the classes in most situations.

If we are to design a team that can defeat a wizard who will always have the perfect build with the perfect setup to stop us and have no real useful magic of our own then the whole mission is doomed.

That is all that I am saying.

Really that makes all options equally as bad. lol.
This is not a doable scenario.

He must have A weakness that might be exploited. Also a level 20 Wizard does not get to be level 20 without becoming at least vaguely known. Is there some way we can research him and learn a weakness? Can the party tailor themselves to the Wizard slightly?

If not this is a waste of time. It's just a game of beat the power tripping DM on the hill. lol.

--------------------------

Well back to the drawing board.
It looks like we need:

High Initiatives.
Awesome SR.
Some way of surving all the spells that get past SR.
Huge fort, dex and will saves.
Maximum BAB
Staying power to be able to carve through a legion of beasties, because he starts with some and he can summon plenty more.
So that means minimum of 10 sided HD and Good CON, Good DEX, Good WIS.

We then need a way to actually kill him without spells.
One disjunction and half our magic items will be useless.
So we cannot rely on magic items or pre-cast buffs.

So touch attacks. Lots and lots of touch attacks to get aorund his virtually limitless AC.
Level draining maybe? Bring him down some notches and then even some of the worst level 20 parties could kick his ass.
Wizards have low Fort saves (usually), boosted by magic and items sure. But lower than a fighter or Barbarian will anyway.

ooooooohh hey, Can we BUY a scroll of Disjunction and have a low level caster cast it? That would remove all of his buffs and potentially mess up some of his items.

Also are we allowed to take spelltouched feats?
There is one that stops him from using Divination to follow us. lol.

Also leadership. We can potentially have level 16 Cohorts. They would not be of huge use against the Wizard, but they could work as a buffer against his summoned nasties.

[Elminster1]

This really all sounds hopelessly theoretical. The reality is, a truly intelligent wizard, at level 20, is just a GOD. You just can't beat Contingency into Time Stop into Whatever (let's face it SHAPECHANGE) into the party can be my undead minions now, thanks :smallsmile:

No stupid anti-magic field tricks, or uber martial classes are going to work. You NEED magic, and magic alone is the only tool that will combat GOD. Sorry, that's the truth.

Wanna smash a wizard 20? Call up your local Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and his/her enclave of Abjurers, and have them bring their Silverymoon Spellguard friends too. Otherwise, plan for eternal slavery, lol.

[afroakuma]

This really all sounds hopelessly theoretical. The reality is, a truly intelligent wizard, at level 20, is just a GOD. You just can't beat Contingency into Time Stop into Whatever (let's face it SHAPECHANGE) into the party can be my undead minions now, thanks :smallsmile:

No stupid anti-magic field tricks, or uber martial classes are going to work. You NEED magic, and magic alone is the only tool that will combat GOD. Sorry, that's the truth.

Wanna smash a wizard 20? Call up your local Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and his/her enclave of Abjurers, and have them bring their Silverymoon Spellguard friends too. Otherwise, plan for eternal slavery, lol.

Within the bounds of currently available rules, this is the case.

However, that stipulation is explicitly not running the show here.

You can bypass contingency, stay active during time stop, smash down walls of stone and iron, stride through a prismatic sphere or wall of force and staple the wizard's current form onto him, in this thread. The question posed is: will that be enough? If not, what else will you need to do?

[Lycanthromancer]

...smash down walls of stone and iron, stride through a prismatic sphere...
Remember when I mentioned a stone shaped dome surrounded by a prismatic sphere? You can't attack the dome of stone because you can't attack through a prismatic sphere, and you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because everything inside is solid.

From the SRD:
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.

Then it goes on to say that it has all the effects of a prismatic wall, which stops all magical and nonmagical attack forms, Su, Sp, Ex, and natural attack forms; and damages, plane shifts, and outright destroys all other objects and effects that pass through.

Creatures can move through it if they make their saves, except you can't actually pass through to the other side because of the stone coating the inner surface.

Not to say that you can't find a way, but it's something you'll likely have to deal with. It IS an extremely effective defense, and doesn't cost much to pull off, after all.

[The Glyphstone]

Afro, if you don't go back to the OP and edit in the circumstances explaining what's going on (I.E., a homebrew campaign setting in progress, trying to figure out the easiest methods to curb a wizard's power/bypass his defenses, and what rules changes would be necessary to do so for said setting), you're going to have to keep fending off people who come in, read the first post, and Reply with 'LoLz Wizards WIN always' in varying degrees of articulation. Doesn't really seem like a productive use of your time IMO.

[afroakuma]

Remember when I mentioned a stone shaped dome surrounded by a prismatic sphere? You can't attack the dome of stone because you can't attack through a prismatic sphere, and you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because everything inside is solid.

From the SRD:
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.

Then it goes on to say that it has all the effects of a prismatic wall, which stops all magical and nonmagical attack forms, Su, Sp, Ex, and natural attack forms; and damages, plane shifts, and outright destroys all other objects and effects that pass through.

Yes, but as you forget: if you can ignore the entire effect, then the sum total of all of its text means nothing. So if you're in "ignore prismatic sphere mode," then the fact that it can stop your attacks is irrelevant.

I'm not talking about saves, I'm talking about an ability that says, "take this spell, line by line, and shove it for the next few rounds."


Afro, if you don't go back to the OP and edit in the circumstances explaining what's going on (I.E., a homebrew campaign setting in progress, trying to figure out the easiest methods to curb a wizard's power/bypass his defenses, and what rules changes would be necessary to do so for said setting), you're going to have to keep fending off people who come in, read the first post, and Reply with 'LoLz Wizards WIN always' in varying degrees of articulation. Doesn't really seem like a productive use of your time IMO.

Indeed. However, I've got most of what I need now, I think. Not to mention that I guarantee I'd get those people anyway.

[The Mormegil]

Remember when I mentioned a stone shaped dome surrounded by a prismatic sphere? You can't attack the dome of stone because you can't attack through a prismatic sphere, and you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because everything inside is solid.

From the SRD:
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.

Then it goes on to say that it has all the effects of a prismatic wall, which stops all magical and nonmagical attack forms, Su, Sp, Ex, and natural attack forms; and damages, plane shifts, and outright destroys all other objects and effects that pass through.

Creatures can move through it if they make their saves, except you can't actually pass through to the other side because of the stone coating the inner surface.

Not to say that you can't find a way, but it's something you'll likely have to deal with. It IS an extremely effective defense, and doesn't cost much to pull off, after all.

The point is that if you have an ability that allows you to, say, make an attack as a standard action against an object and that object is subject to effects similar to a disintegrate spell (but by no means magical... say you have a class feature called "Smash Things Well (Ex)" and you copy and paste disintegrate in it (adapted to using a weapon, though)) you can just stand 5' out the prismatic sphere and use this ability to attack the Dome in melee. You and your weapon are subject to the wall effects of course (but you are immune to energy damage, petrification and poison through magic items, and cannot be thrust away into other planes due to campaign setting specifics) though the dome is destroyed now. Next turn, you step inside. Or your buddies do it this turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi, interesting thread!

Will think about some tactics to overcome a level 20 wizard.
Meanwhile, I guess it's important to see what goes and what does not already with the existing rules, because there are often completely odd interpretations or outright misreadings of the rules that lead to notions of wizard overpoweredness.

What Lycanthromancer posted is a prime example of this.
afroakuma already replied to it in part, but I'd like to go a bit further and provide more of a different opinion here.



For instance; sure, the wizard can have only a single gate active at a time. And sure, RAW he can only control up to 2x his CL in HD. But that doesn't stop Mr. Lvl 20 Wizard from using a single gate to pull in six hecatonchieres, or twelve atroposes, or fifteen chichimecs, and then teleporting out.

The thing that actually prevents that already within the rules is an extremely high knowledge DC for pulling together all relevant information about the mighty creature a wizard intends to call. The DC goes up by 5 for every bit of information (meaning for each special ability etc). And it is the DM who decides what bits will be learnt with what DC.
The gate spell is extremely dangerous the moment a wizard player is not metagaming (that is, knowing the Monster Manuals by heart) since he'll never know for sure whether the creature he gates in will not have some kind of power to a) shrug off the controlling effect of the spell and b) will make it very easy for it to seek vengeance later (after all, it has double the HD of the wizard!).


Or casting a Maximized time stop on his turn (using a metamagic rod, and maybe Extend Spell with metamagic reducers) and setting himself up with a wall of iron (to stand on); stone shape (as a dome) and prismatic sphere just outside the stone shape, to prevent entry into the sphere and to prevent damage to the dome, as well as a dimensional anchor spell on the stone shaped dome to prevent teleportation in.

This costs a lot of spells and are quite good for defending yourself when being suprised. Still...
...a simple rod of cancellation (extremely cheap at that level) takes care of the prismatic wall
...a single sunder (even wihtout a feat) of the typical tank character will tear through the wall of stone.
Worse, the enemy may wait outside or move on to destroy something the wizard holds dear.

The most simple defensive strategy remains for the wizard to flee (teleport away). He does not need to fight.
Then, again, when the wizard is surprised, he'll not be able to cast time stop (in a core environment that allegedly is so broken).


A shapechange (one for him and one for his familiar) to turn the two of them incorporeal, and to grant a huge number of supernatural abilities; and two ring-gates (one to keep inside the dome, and one with his familiar for him to cast out of).

Powerful, but all vanishing away the moment when AMF hits. And offensively using the familiar is quite risky for a wizard (a good idea in some cases, not so good in others).


A Quickened limited wish or shadow evocation to get whatever extra contingencies he might decide that he needs at the spur of the moment (see: contingent teleport).

Contingency, while being useful, is one of the most overestimated spells in the game, since
a) you cast the spell to be contingencie'd way before you know exactly what is going to happen and what triggers it (for instance, dimension door is quite dangerous this way, because you have to specify exactly where you want to go like "100ft up, 200ft to the left". When the contingency is triggered, you possibly end up where you do not wish to be.)
b) the more complicated the conditions you set, the more likely the DM rules it is too complicated to work (which the spell explicitly points out). And a BBEG using contingency? Never underestimate your players to come up with a solution to that...


A few well-thought-out shrink item'd items that will act as both offense (via telekinesis + thousands of pounds of boulders, or several hundreds of gallons of shrunken cloth-of-black-lotus-extract, amongst other things), and defense (the aforementioned shrunken dome, and numerous other clever ruses).

Nothing in the spell or in rules anywhere point to such an interpretation of the spell. The moment the item unshrinks, it will occupy a certain space but will not crush anything. And poison attacks at level 20 are somewhat...optimistic to hope they'd still affect anything.


A pre-prepared magnificent mansion and/or rope trick for an easy escape.

Rope trick at level 20 is no longer a very safe place to be. And even a magnificent mansion is not invulnerable.
Both can be targeted with dispel magics or lose their effect (DM's call here) when being touched by an AMF, since their invisible entries are still on the plane they were cast from.


Another gate spell set to open into some incredibly inhospitable plane (such as the paraelemental plane of lava, or the far realm) to flood the room (while the wizard, of course, is safely tucked away inside his prismatic shell, or maybe just a resilient sphere).

Nowhere in the gate spell is it mentioned that it will cause matter to come through since the home plane's phyical laws do not necessarily apply in the other realms. It's entirely DM-dependent. (if it were not so, btw, opening a gate to a vacuum or antimatter world would create a vast explosion - since the rules do not cover this, it must be assumed that life/unlife-less matter is unaffected by the gate spell. In fact, the gate spell uses the words "travel" and "move" and thus it clearly only encompasses creatures.).


A reverse gravity to hurl you into an open gate, into a prismatic sphere, or some other hazard.

Since almost all creatures of EL 20 will have some means of flying (explicitly mentions as functioning by the reverse gravity spell) or similar way to escape, this will not work. A wizard who casts this simply loses a spell and an action for doing it.


An army of undead, golems, elementals, demons, devils, and other permanent slaves, bound to him via any number of means (see: create (greater) undead, lesser/greater planar ally, dominate monster, etc etc etc).

- Undead? Has some roleplaying consequences. The BBEG perhaps. But the party wizard? Not so much.
- planar allies has some problems in that you only get one service per creature and clever ones will try to subvert the wizard's will. It is quite likely that they will seek revenge after the service. Again, more BBEG style, not for common use.
- charm spells? Will only make the creatures a friend of the caster, but not necessarily follow him into a war.
All of these: since they put basically npcs into the service of the wizard, they are completely run by the DM and thus not completely reliable.


As well as the spellcasting gumption of every other arcane and divine class out there, given that he has access to all of their spell-lists (via any number of spells, including polymorph, shapechange, polymorph any object, - since spellcasting is officially an Ex attack - and summons).

No, spellcasting is a spell attack, not an Ex attack. The Ex (Extraordinary), Su (supernatural), and sp (spell-like ability) attacks and qualities are only given to such abilities of SPECIAL status. Spellcasting is not a special ability. It is a class ability.
Then, all the morphing spells benefit the non-casters way more than the casters since they lure casters foolish enough only into melee combat where they will be highly vulnerable, even in shapechanged form.
Only very, very few shapes grant highly powerful abilities - but again, here, you'll need to make a knowledge check of extremely high DC and a lenient DM who alone determines what a character knows and what not.


Virtually every status effect in the game; negative levels, ability penalties, ability damage, ability drain, disjunctions, fear effects (shaken, not stirred), exhaustion effects, and myriad others.

And all of these can be quite easily countered/nullified in the respective levels with magic items, as well as feats/class abilites/special abilities.


Battlefield-control which can simply shut down anyone he feels like; solid fog + dimension lock, for instance.

Then simply make a 4x move action and you're out of the solid fog (while at the same time having full concealment from the wizard).


Skill-boosters which boost his abilities way beyond what anyone else can do (see: moment of prescience); and that's assuming he wants to make the check at all, and doesn't bypass it completely.

But moment of prescience is only for just ONE check. This hardly matters, for instance for the vital stealth skills at high level play.


He can target any and all defenses you have; at least one of which will likely be your weak spot (and with his insane Knowledge skills, he'll most likely know which defense is your weakness). Many of his abilities have no defense, even for things "immune" to magic.

I wonder which they are, since there is a defense against all magic attacks (at least in core).


Note that the aforementioned spell onslaught has hardly put a dent into the number of spell-slots he has available, since he can use rods of absorption as both defensive tools (to absorb incoming spells) and to burn instead of spell-slots. He also has pearls of power, Mordenkainen's lubrication (the better to screw you with, my dear), rings of spell storing, rings of wizardry, and all sorts of other ways to save his slots. All of which he's fully capable of crafting, if he feels like it.

But more of the same of things that will not always work is not really helping...:smallsmile:
The wizard when in danger has to make a critical choice: what to use with his action, since he'll be dead quite quickly when he committs a mistake. In practical play (i.e. of the non-optimised, board theory kind) this can happen quite often - both to DM BBEGs as to player wizards.


And he can change his abilities every single day, to suit his whims. You will never, ever know exactly what he has prepped for any given day, because his spellbooks should have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells filling them to the brim, and he can access any spell that it's possible to research, given just a bit of time. And good luck reaching his spellbooks, given that he can place them permanently out of anyone's reach but his own.

It is not necessary to know what a wizard has prepared. A smart enemy will know (via spellcraft) the kind of spells that are theoretically available, the most powerful for the sitution and plan in advance.


...and that's just from straight core; splatbooks make this much, MUCH worse.

The only thing to my mind that really change things dramatically is the strange turtle thing that always grants the surprise round (insane DC to know about that particular ability of that creature, so entirely DM-dependent to be present or not). And, of course, celerity- but that is also availble to a certain degree via the cheap belt of battle (MiC).
In any case, since all non-core rules are entirely optional, it is up to the DM to allow what goes and what not- that is much simpler for the purposes of the OP who seeks to find ways to overcome a level 20 wizard.


I don't think you quite realize just how insane casters really are at high levels. THAT is why I'm being 'negative'. It's like picking up a few grenades and attempting to assassinate GOD. It just doesn't work.

A wizard is no god. He's quite mortal and highly vulnerable once his spell defenses are bypassed. At those levels, he'll likely die from a single hit.
The best tactics for a wizard is to avoid combat if at all possible, in all levels.

- Giacomo

[Radar]

@Sir Giacomo
You do have a good point, but there is still a problem to solve. The wizard is specifically said to know, that the party is coming, so he will make some preparations beyond spells for a day. Offensive use of shrunken items is probably not avaliable. Still, shrunken adamantine dome is a fail-safe defence, that will go off, if anyone uses AMF. If i would be the said wizard, i would have my sanctuary situated a few kilometers deep in some mountain. The whole thing (or at least the hall, in which i would try to stop the party) would be supported only by permanent magical effects (Wall of Force). If anyone uses AMF, it's "rocks fall everybody dies" - except me (i have my adamantine dome to protect me). I can even cast AMF myself to trigger the whole thing.

To deal with that problem, one would have to lure the wizard out of his sanctuary. Best case scenario would be to force him into a fight, while he is at least partially short on spells. The Epic Bluff build PC shown in this thread can deal with said wizard's omniscience, so he can surprise the wizard.

I think, that more information on the subject could be gained only by playtesting different strategies and counter-strategies.

[elliott20]

me? I just jab him a couple times until I get my star, and then I super punch to death after he whiffs a rolling jab.

then I go jogging in a pink sweat suit, following my fat coach on a bike.

[ArlEammon]

Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.

Ring of Three Wishes, eh, Having a low multi-classed magician character with a Staff of Retribution and the rest in Monk.

Monks have pretty powerful magical resistance. . .

[Sir Giacomo]

Monk abilities providing some avenue vs high-level wizards? Now where have I heard that before...:smallwink:
Although a multi-classed monk does not really shine in SR.

Anyhow, @Radar
Let us have a close look at the level 20 npc wizard to challenge a group of, say, four non-caster pcs of level 20 (for instance, ranger/rogue/monk/swordsage).
Mighty fortresses, equipping minions, gallons of pricy shink item'ed poison, mountain vaults set with permancie'd walls of force as columns (btw walls of force are unaffected by AMF)- all of this sounds like it vastly exceeds a level 20 npc wealth.
Meanwhile, the four non-caster pcs have 4x760k of items at their disposal, on top of their numerous class abilities. It is hard to imagine the level 20 npc wizard having a big chance here...
Now...the moment the DM wishes to have some sort of cool level 20 wizard npc to challenge the players, he might have to increase the challenge already
- by the sheer amount of money spent for the wizard.
- by providing him/her with many minions
- by making him/her very clever and frustrating the players by always coming back or having an escape plan (check out Lycanthromancer's ideas on using clones and simulacrums)
- by introducing some plot twist that the pcs cannot directly assault and kill the wizard
- by making the player characters weaker (taking away part of their equipment, not allowing them the optimal equipment, denying them typical anti-wizard stuff, having all ramifications of a magic-poor campaign etc.)

@the OP
What about the following setting:

1. An evil necromancer of great power lives on a remote place called the isle of death. From there, he spread a plague that knows no cure. The desperate high priest of the realm's capital contacts the four somewhat anti-hero-like pcs (neutral good ranger/chaotic good rogue/lawful neutral monk/chaotic neutral swordsage/barbarian). She tells them that her god has shown her in a vision (contact other plane) that the necromancer of the isle of death is behind it.
The task of the pcs is now to a) find out about how the disease can be stopped and b) defeat the necromancer in cast that helps (or after they find out about the cure).
Unfortunately, through his many spies and minions, as well as scrying spells, the necromancer eavesdrops on this task and tries to find out more about the pcs. Of course, he also increases his defenses (including Mage's mansion, clones, what have you).

2. Now...what will these typical ultra-high-level pcs do?
a) They first realise (having survived for so long) that the high priestess is not powerful enough to protect them. All of the pcs have hide as class skill and make good use of it to merge into the crowd of the city. Additionally, they put mind blanks up (items, npc spellcasting). Then they plot.

b) A first step in their plot is to find out more about the necromancer. This can be done in several ways where mind blank will not help the wizard:
- they will research about the isle of death (which cannot be mind blanked; a disadvantage of a powerful npc wizard trying to affect the world is that he's often fairly immobile)
- they will research about the wizard's minions (which likewise may not all be mind blanked); whereas they may not have that many allies for the wizard to use as indirect scrying targets (being the typical lonesome adventurers, or even strangers in town)
- they will use insane skill bonuses for information gathering
- also, they could try to get a bard to provide them with information through bardic knowledge (DC 35 revealing a wizard's childhood nickname).
- they could find an enemy of the necromancer wizard (not necessarily a good-aligned one, there might even be a possibility to contact a powerful demon from the outer planes).

c) They could approach the isle from various angles, of which the necromancer will not be able to block all (trust your players to come up with something you do not expect).
- teleport is possibly out due to a wished forbiddance on the isle (or via a cleric minion who cast it)
- flying to the isle may be a possibility when obscured somehow (say, polymorphed or veiled as seagulls or even undead flying minions via rogue's UMD scroll, since true seeing only reaches out 120ft).
- similarly, the pcs could approach from underwater (for that complete James Bond feeling...:smallcool:)
- A typical out-of-the-box player idea to infiltrate the wizard's inner circle would be (in complete desperation) to become undead himself/themselves.

d) now, on the isle, the pcs due to their stellar hide/move silently class skills (which cannot be seen through even with true seeing) like a SWAT team will be able to check out what is really going on there.
- of course they will have true seeing effects up
- a level 20 rogue could well be able to auto-detect and disable any, even magical traps
- any guards and resistance can be put out in a standard action by this stealhy and combat-heavy group
Eventually, there may even be a (fake) showdown with a (fake) BBEG wizard (or one that is just being replaced by a clone). They may discover the entry to a Mage mansion. They may find important clues/wrong clues about the disease (again, heal is a class skill for one of them - the ranger - meaning there is a good opportunity for the DM to offer clues here in case the ranger has this skill very high - ditto the monk for the religion skill).
It is all up to the typical DM challenges for an adventure. You could even add suspense by having all of the group already diseased with cumulative penalties until they die (excepting the monk due to that one's immunity :smallbiggrin:).

But nowhere in all this is there some sort of rules imperative that a level 20 npc wizard is unbeatable.

- Giacomo

[Eldariel]

Giacomo: You seem to be forgetting about all the forms of detection other than sight. Sure, True Seeing doesn't see through your Hide/Move Silently, but any of the Blindsense/Blindsight/Tremorsense/whatever-line does, as does Mindsight which can't even be guarded against with Darkstalker (the only way to fight against the others; as a bonus, it's from the same supplement as Darkstalker, so if Darkstalkers are abound, chances are the Wizard, his familiar and many of his servants have been telepathically trained to stand guard).

Also, having spell effects or magic items on you makes you a giant target to anything or anyone with (Greater) Arcane Sight (a spell that can be Permanencied). In short, stealth to the degree that nothing the Wizard is like to have in his arsenal couldn't detect you from far away is kinda unachievable (Planar Bindings, Gates, etc. pretty much ensure that there's a lot of stuff at his arsenal). So getting next to him without Teleportation seems impossible...and chances are he's prepared for Teleportation in some manner (be it Anticipate Teleportation, Dimensional Lock or whatever the heck else).


May be a better plan to act at range. In fact, it likely is, simply because trying to get near requires beating many more things than just trying to beat his defensive buffs for long enough to land a lethal shot.

[Elminster1]

Come on, let's be remotley serious. Stealth obviously is weak, as Eldariel stated, for good reason. Secondly, you still need magic to even stand a chance, period. There is no way around that fundamental cornerstone.

On top of that, the wizard may have hordes of minions through summoning, or even have Leadership, I dunno. The wizard may use Illusion magic to disguise the entire terrain. Forget defense even, no need for Wall spells, Prismatic Sphere, etc. What about just Shapechange into, I dunno, a Gold Dragon, maybe a Dracolich, oh AND all my spellcasting ability to boot. Maybe I'm invisible too. While I do flyby strafe attacks, cast spells and drop rocks on your faces. Plus whatever I summon, or make you think I summon. The list is endless, it's hilarious. Thinking your party has a chance against you playing a prepared, intelligent wizard just seems like folly.

[afroakuma]

Come on, let's be remotley serious. Stealth obviously is weak, as Eldariel stated, for good reason. Secondly, you still need magic to even stand a chance, period. There is no way around that fundamental cornerstone.

Yeah, there is, but clearly you're in the camp who's ignoring the point of this thread.


Thinking your party has a chance against you playing a prepared, intelligent wizard just seems like folly.

Another wizard cheerleader. Do you have anything to contribute, or no?

[Lycanthromancer]

A psychic warrior has a fair shot at it, though he gets up to 6th level powers, is psionic, and it takes a small bit of op-fu to do.

[edit] Also, quite possibly, an optimized bard. And maybe a factotum (though they get Sp abilities up to 9th level).

[Radar]

(...)
Anyhow, @Radar
Let us have a close look at the level 20 npc wizard to challenge a group of, say, four non-caster pcs of level 20 (for instance, ranger/rogue/monk/swordsage).
Mighty fortresses, equipping minions, gallons of pricy shink item'ed poison, mountain vaults set with permancie'd walls of force as columns (btw walls of force are unaffected by AMF)- all of this sounds like it vastly exceeds a level 20 npc wealth.
Meanwhile, the four non-caster pcs have 4x760k of items at their disposal, on top of their numerous class abilities. It is hard to imagine the level 20 npc wizard having a big chance here...
Now...the moment the DM wishes to have some sort of cool level 20 wizard npc to challenge the players, he might have to increase the challenge already
- by the sheer amount of money spent for the wizard.
- by providing him/her with many minions
- by making him/her very clever and frustrating the players by always coming back or having an escape plan (check out Lycanthromancer's ideas on using clones and simulacrums)
- by introducing some plot twist that the pcs cannot directly assault and kill the wizard
- by making the player characters weaker (taking away part of their equipment, not allowing them the optimal equipment, denying them typical anti-wizard stuff, having all ramifications of a magic-poor campaign etc.)

(...)
Actually you don't need that much: find a suitable cave complex with one entrance (preferably with a long, straight tunnel). Rig the that tunnel for the "rocks fall" trick, clear out any obstacles and provide light (no Hide, unless you have Hide in Plain Sight). Total cost shouldn't be that big - if a flying ship cost 40 000gp, then the preparations shouldn't take more IMO. Rest of the complex doesn't need to be collapsable and can be used for whatever nefarious plan you got there going. It's also good to have the place Dimensional Locked, since it disables Dimensional Door as well as surprise teleports. It has a duration day/lvl, so it's easy to maintain. Oh, you do have to buy an adamantine dome - that will cost you, but is well within your wealth.
Minions are mostly worthles, when it comes to challenge the PCs, unless you use them en mass and cast spells from behind. A golem bodyguard might be handy, but is not crucial.
I don't plan to use clone/simulacrum or whatever else in my proposed scenario for the fight, nor did i say anything about additional plot twist, that would prevent the wizard from dying. I didn't even make any assumptions on PCs inventory.
Ok, AMF doesn't work on Wall of Force, but Disjunction does (or Disintegrate - even better because of a longer range). Since there won't be anything valuable in the area of the fight, it won't hurt the wizard financially much and i think that soloing 4 characters of your own level will be enough XP to set up the Walls of Force and shrink the dome again. Disintegrate at 20lvl will have 300ft range - more then enough to be out of range for a charging meele PC.

I also read your Monk guide, the smoke-bottle trick is nice, but it won't change the effect here - the PCs are not even targeted.

ShortNot so short disclaimer: the purpose of my posts, is to explore a possible, not directly magical threat for the PCs and not just saying, that wizards trump everyone. There has to be a way around it and i provided possible solution in my previous post: lure the wizard out - if he has some plan, there is a way to foil it and thus force him to move out of his sanctuary. That or brake his omniscience (by Epic Bluff, as was written earlier) and fight him in any place other then his death-trap.

[Juhn]

Yeah, there is, but clearly you're in the camp who's ignoring the point of this thread.

No, I'm pretty sure he's in the camp which doesn't want to slog through ten pages of possible solutions to find the part where some of us figured out you want homebrew solutions, rather than finding a way to beat a wizard with the rules we have now. I'm assuming a lot of these people read through the OP and then came up with their solutions, and have very little idea as to why you're so annoyed with them.

I direct you again to what Glyphstone and I have said in this very thread.

[Voldecanter]

Homebrew an Artifact that Drains Magick or something ?

[afroakuma]

I direct you again to what Glyphstone and I have said in this very thread.

I direct you to two things that I've already said:


Indeed. However, I've got most of what I need now, I think.


If not, what would you need to be able to do so? (Note: This question is not "what deficiencies would the wizard need" but rather "what would you need to be able to do?")

In addition, at the time that I did explicitly state that I was going to homebrew solutions, I got lambasted for trying to hand out a "kill wizards automatically" button.

[mostlyharmful]

Within the bounds of currently available rules, this is the case.

However, that stipulation is explicitly not running the show here.

You can bypass contingency, stay active during time stop, smash down walls of stone and iron, stride through a prismatic sphere or wall of force and staple the wizard's current form onto him, in this thread. The question posed is: will that be enough? If not, what else will you need to do?

Sooooo.... at what point does it get beyound 'I'm really hard' and into 'I'm actually a dumb wizard that uses my body as a hammer'?

Oh, and add on some way of divining information about a target in hiding hundreds of miles away that only travels by teleport and talks to people through an astral projection or a telepathic crystal ball, see through all illusions (even Superior Invis so true sight isn't enough), follow a fleeing, flying, incorporeal, teleporting mage, flight, a way to break mindrapes and dominates on yourself and your friends, freedom of movement, Deathward, a way to be immune to SR ignoring spells, a way to be immune to instant conjuration energy effects, Mind-affecting immunity, at least 5 ranks of balance, a way to blank out all non-personal info gathering (specifically Contact other plane, so Mindblank isn't enough), a way to trap the soul after death to prevent clones and such, a way to force his soul back into his body after he uses astral project or Soul Jar and some way to kibosh initiative boosters, Celerity line, Foresight and action reducers..... and that's off the top of my head. Yeah, and make it all immune to dispel or disjoin while you're at it.

Like I said, at what point do you just give in and write 'Wizard' at the top of the sheet. A wizards power comes in part because they've got a gazillion options of awesome which break important parts of the game engine or the game world.

[afroakuma]

Case in point.


Oh, and add on some way of divining information about a target in hiding hundreds of miles away that only travels by teleport

Nope.


and talks to people through an astral projection

There are none, see first post.


see through all illusions (even Superior Invis so true sight isn't enough)

Sure.


follow a fleeing, flying, incorporeal, teleporting mage

Flying would certainly be a help. Forcing him to remain corporeal/dimension locked shouldn't be very difficult if he stuck around for any length of time.


a way to break mindrapes and dominates on yourself and your friends,

Sure.


freedom of movement

Depends on which effects we need to avoid (Escape Artist covers some) and of course there's a magic item on the market that gives you this.


Deathward,

Always handy.


a way to be immune to SR ignoring spells, a way to be immune to instant conjuration energy effects, Mind-affecting immunity,

All wrapped up in one very simple ability.


at least 5 ranks of balance

Skill ranks.


a way to blank out all non-personal info gathering (specifically Contact other plane, so Mindblank isn't enough)

Again, contact other plane is invalid in this campaign setting.


a way to trap the soul after death to prevent clones and such,

Sure.


a way to force his soul back into his body after he uses astral project

No astral projection; already explained that.


some way to kibosh initiative boosters

Not particularly worrisome; there are ways for martial characters to pick up extra Initiative.


Celerity line

Universally problematic. But of course, it depends what he does with it.


Foresight

No means available to deal with that. Wizard wants to crack off a 9th-level divination, he's gonna get something back.


Yeah, and make it all immune to dispel or disjoin while you're at it.

Well the abilities certainly are. The gear won't be. Oh no.


Like I said, at what point do you just give in and write 'Wizard' at the top of the sheet.

Never. You refuse to accept this simple idea.

Watch how easy this is:

• An ability that sees through any illusion.
• An ability to staple the wizard's current form to him.
• Anything that causes dimensional anchor.
• An ability to repair a creature's mind.
• A way to completely ignore all effects of a spell.

So, that's five abilities. Top off with some level-appropriate gear and you have a shot against the wizard.

Have I missed anything?

[Elminster1]

I apologize Afroakuma, I didn't mean to come off condescending and not to contribute. My bad.

Anyway, perhaps a Ring of Counterspells with Mordenkainen's Disjunction on it, one for each party member, so they don't fall prey to an area Disjunction?

I belive Nondetection protects you from Divinations and Scrying attempts. If not, you could invest in a scroll of Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (protects against Divinatory magics) for your party to convene and plan their strategy.

Protection against mind control, already mentioned is a necessity. Dimensional Anchor keeps the wizard from Teleport tricks, plus, I believe it's a no save ray attack, which helps.

[mostlyharmful]

You refuse to accept this simple idea.

Watch how easy this is:

• An ability that sees through any illusion.
• An ability to staple the wizard's current form to him.
• Anything that causes dimensional anchor.
• An ability to repair a creature's mind.
• A way to completely ignore all effects of a spell.

So, that's five abilities. Top off with some level-appropriate gear and you have a shot against the wizard.

Have I missed anything?

I can see where you're going and why, i'm trying to be helpful and I have no problem accepting simple ideas and requests for helpful suggestions, try not to bite my head off.

The list of five abilities are all fairly big deals which are hard to envisage as doable short of full caster for me at least.

If there's no astral then you still need to think about Mindjar.

If you're using items then they can be chain dispeled and shattered, items are still vulnerable to casters especially mages and they don't even need to burn a ninth level slot for disjoin.

Flying isn't just a help it's a damn vital component, if you've got overland flight or phantom steed available then most high level mages will be just about unreachable without it. And yes, it should be easy enough to staple his feet to the floor so long as he sticks around and lets you do it. You can either do it through stealth or speed or force the mage to co-operate.... none of them easy.

dealing with the repercussions of mindrape or dominate or suggestion or what have you isn't nearly as useful as preventing it in the first place which is a big thing to stick on yourself, all your mates and your minions. this isn't just mind-affecting stuff, Otto's will shut you down aswell along with a bucketload of non-core stuff.

FoM and Deathward are both available in items but items aren't always reliable, one use reactive get out of jail free effects would cover any item shut down and that would be a lot easier to write as a PrC ability.

Ranks are easy to get yet it's amazing how many builds don't figure them in, just saying put tumble, balance and jump into any mageslayer type PrC.

Contact other plane is the most well known and most reliable, it's not the only one, pretty much so long as the mage has div available and a safe place to bunk he can set up scry'n'die, unless you get rid of almost all of the out of combat div you'll get this effect. Mindblank will keep you ok for most of it not all.

the initiative boosters available to martial characters are also available to casters, along with about a bajillion others. Also, see giving your familiar spell-likes, time shenaniganns, Celerity (as previously noted, problematic), Moment of Prescience, etc..

Your five easy things don't cover this...

As a shot you could try:

1. Able to move strategically across the gameworld instantaneously ie. teleport,
2. Able to move tactically in three dimensions as fast as a wizard without using move actions ie. Phantom Steed
3. Able to ignore any mental manipulation no matter it's source.
4. Able to lock down a mage from teleporting, flying, incorporeal, ethereal, gaseous, burrowing, shapechanging and block him calling up friends to do it for him
5. Able to see through any illusion no matter how high a level
6. Able to prevent any spell that manipulates time or his perception of it
7. Able to prevent any infomation acquisition by the wizard
8. Able to acquire infomation on the wizard no matter the abjurations
9. The ability to force matter to revert to it's previous form, the ability to prevent matter from being altered in their vacinity, immunity to any form altering magic
10. The ability to ignore any spell effect or effect created by a spell (note please, these aren't the same thing)

This is not me trolling or trying to be unhelpful but I still don't think that would cover everything a mage can do, good start though.

[afroakuma]

I can see where you're going and why, i'm trying to be helpful and I have no problem accepting simple ideas and requests for helpful suggestions, try not to bite my head off.

Alright, if we're both keeping an open mind about this.


The list of five abilities are all fairly big deals which are hard to envisage as doable short of full caster for me at least.

This is the point you're missing. This is a homebrew project. I am talking about no less than literally those exact abilities made available near-exclusively to non-casters.


If there's no astral then you still need to think about Mindjar.

I assume you're referring to magic jar?


If you're using items then they can be chain dispeled and shattered, items are still vulnerable to casters especially mages and they don't even need to burn a ninth level slot for disjoin.

I don't debate that. Doing so will cost the wizard some actions, but is a pretty valid tactical move.


Flying isn't just a help it's a damn vital component, if you've got overland flight or phantom steed available then most high level mages will be just about unreachable without it.

If that's what they're up to, then yes. But again, there are items that do this exact thing, and assuming the wizard is actually bothering to engage at all, you will have a chance to staple him to where you want him to be.


And yes, it should be easy enough to staple his feet to the floor so long as he sticks around and lets you do it. You can either do it through stealth or speed or force the mage to co-operate.... none of them easy.

First round: wizard either stays or goes. If he goes, we're not fighting. If he stays, then whatever he does, I follow it up with "I staple you to the floor."


dealing with the repercussions of mindrape or dominate or suggestion or what have you isn't nearly as useful as preventing it in the first place

I quite agree. Prevention, however, is entirely in the realm of the caster. As I said earlier, the fighter will not be essentially a dumber wizard.


Otto's will shut you down aswell along with a bucketload of non-core stuff.

Otto's irresistible dance is mind-affecting.


FoM and Deathward are both available in items but items aren't always reliable, one use reactive get out of jail free effects would cover any item shut down and that would be a lot easier to write as a PrC ability.

Indeed. However, there will be limited availability for how many abilities you can obtain. In a pinch, if being a mage killer, I'd prioritize the ones I couldn't get as items.


Ranks are easy to get yet it's amazing how many builds don't figure them in, just saying put tumble, balance and jump into any mageslayer type PrC.

Useful advice.


Contact other plane is the most well known and most reliable, it's not the only one, pretty much so long as the mage has div available and a safe place to bunk he can set up scry'n'die, unless you get rid of almost all of the out of combat div you'll get this effect. Mindblank will keep you ok for most of it not all.

The squad will admittedly be relying on mindblank items. No reason to waste spell exemption on a divination.


the initiative boosters available to martial characters are also available to casters

I was referring to new ones, which very much are not.


Also, see giving your familiar spell-likes, time shenaniganns, Celerity (as previously noted, problematic), Moment of Prescience, etc..

All very evil things, and all by rights within a wizard's fold (except that Celerity, what foolish person... anyway. :smalltongue:)


As a shot you could try:

1. Able to move strategically across the gameworld instantaneously ie. teleport

No. Wizard doesn't want to fight, there's simply no fight.


2. Able to move tactically in three dimensions as fast as a wizard without using move actions ie. Phantom Steed

Item, otherwise no.


3. Able to ignore any mental manipulation no matter it's source.

For shorthand, I'ma call this one Ignore Spell.


4. Able to lock down a mage from teleporting, flying, incorporeal, ethereal, gaseous, burrowing, shapechanging and block him calling up friends to do it for him

Ignoring dimensional anchor, I'ma call the next one Staple Wizard and note that it can't stop him from flying; you'll need either a monk or an item for that one. (I call that "Trade Slow Fall for Flying")


5. Able to see through any illusion no matter how high a level

Ignore Spell/Ignore Illusion


6. Able to prevent any spell that manipulates time or his perception of it

Ranger can, everyone else will rely on Ignore Spell.


7. Able to prevent any infomation acquisition by the wizard

Relying on mind blank items for that.


8. Able to acquire infomation on the wizard no matter the abjurations

Yep; doable, although an upcoming spell will shut down every form of info gathering and make mind blank look feeble.


9. The ability to force matter to revert to it's previous form, the ability to prevent matter from being altered in their vacinity, immunity to any form altering magic

Staple Wizard/SR/High Fort save/Ignore Spell


10. The ability to ignore any spell effect or effect created by a spell (note please, these aren't the same thing)

Ignore Spell considers them the same thing.


This is not me trolling or trying to be unhelpful but I still don't think that would cover everything a mage can do, good start though.

Well, how am I doing now?

[mostlyharmful]

Alright, if we're both keeping an open mind about this.

as much as anyone can, I get the feeling we've both got our respective positions but learning can be fun.:smallsmile:


This is the point you're missing. This is a homebrew project. I am talking about no less than literally those exact abilities made available near-exclusively to non-casters.

I get it. I swear I do. really. But this is the thing...... I see these as BIG HONKING UBER abilities such as I would be loath to load onto a single PrC because it would completely change the game, and something like that well, it's got big knock on effects on how the game engine handles, this is shaping up to something that makes Incantatrix look like a well thought out balanced idea.


I assume you're referring to magic jar?

yep, sorry. The spell that makes you wander around in the body of just about anything you want and that includes lots of big nasties with big bonusses and useful abilities.


I don't debate that. Doing so will cost the wizard some actions, but is a pretty valid tactical move.

And all your stuff. And if he's got mates or the tactical movement advantage (like say, from riding a flying mount with a 240' move that can shuttle him around without costing him actions) then it leaves you stuffed.


If that's what they're up to, then yes. But again, there are items that do this exact thing, and assuming the wizard is actually bothering to engage at all, you will have a chance to staple him to where you want him to be.

But. if the mage gets the chance to decide when and where he'll fight you with all the preptime he needs then you've handed him a huge advantage, in any system even close to DnD 3.5 this is almost a deathwarrent.


First round: wizard either stays or goes. If he goes, we're not fighting. If he stays, then whatever he does, I follow it up with "I staple you to the floor."

see above.


I quite agree. Prevention, however, is entirely in the realm of the caster. As I said earlier, the fighter will not be essentially a dumber wizard.

So he'll be facing off against everyone he's ever known or loved (provided he doesn't suck the buisness end of a mindgank post dispel)


Otto's irresistible dance is mind-affecting.

face. hands. crud.:smallredface:


Indeed. However, there will be limited availability for how many abilities you can obtain. In a pinch, if being a mage killer, I'd prioritize the ones I couldn't get as items.

which is a problem since a mage can prep any of these, lots of them are based around useful spells whatever the situation and all of them are needed if you don't know what spells a mage has in his brain.


Useful advice.

cool, look mum, I'm helpful!:smallbiggrin:


The squad will admittedly be relying on mindblank items. No reason to waste spell exemption on a divination.

Ok, there'll be breaks in it and that's not available constantly untill you've got a lot of cash to throw around.


I was referring to new ones, which very much are not.

oh, sounds like a big bunch of abilities, to the point where you need to share if we're going to help. Something that big thrown in the mix will shake the game balence to the point where any advice will be squew-wif.


All very evil things, and all by rights within a wizard's fold (except that Celerity, what foolish person... anyway. :smalltongue:)

Then suck suprise round, if he doesn't high tail it.


No. Wizard doesn't want to fight, there's simply no fight.

right then and there no. At some unspecified point in the future, likely at his chosing not yours, yes.


Item, otherwise no.

Then he gets the drop round after round or just leaves your plucky team of mage slayers and goes have some tea hundreds of miles away, neither really fill the sagas with your glory.


For shorthand, I'ma call this one Ignore Spell.

Sounds preeeetty uber...


Ignoring dimensional anchor, I'ma call the next one Staple Wizard and note that it can't stop him from flying; you'll need either a monk or an item for that one. (I call that "Trade Slow Fall for Flying")

useful for forcing the fight, even gives the monk a role to the sounds of it.


Ignore Spell/Ignore Illusion

the uber is growing towards something a trifle curdled


Ranger can, everyone else will rely on Ignore Spell.

cheese power you've got growing there.


Relying on mind blank items for that.

120K a shot. Everyone in the team HAS to have one.


Yep; doable, although an upcoming spell will shut down every form of info gathering and make mind blank look feeble.

ok, you've got a very homebrewed system here, after this post i'm just going to go get some sleep.


Staple Wizard/SR/High Fort save/Ignore Spell

hmmmmm..... how hard is this Ignore everything that guy trys to do even though it's all he's capable of and he can level mountains with it to get hold of?


Ignore Spell considers them the same thing.

Ignore Everything is also a catchy name, also Deus Ex has a funky ring to it.


Well, how am I doing now?

between us we seem to have managed to have a conversation on the internet, wooo us. aaaaand the bed is calling, good luck with your project.

[afroakuma]

I get it. I swear I do. really. But this is the thing...... I see these as BIG HONKING UBER abilities such as I would be loath to load onto a single PrC because it would completely change the game, and something like that well, it's got big knock on effects on how the game engine handles, this is shaping up to something that makes Incantatrix look like a well thought out balanced idea.

Honestly? The peer reviews we've had on the material so far indicate very favorable opinions. One even stole the idea for his own campaign. As I'll explain shortly, there's not nearly as much uber here as you think.


And all your stuff. And if he's got mates or the tactical movement advantage (like say, from riding a flying mount with a 240' move that can shuttle him around without costing him actions) then it leaves you stuffed.

Yup. And that's the way of the world. Of course, if you staple him to the floor while he's breaking your stuff, then you have a chance to charge him and knock his head off.


But. if the mage gets the chance to decide when and where he'll fight you with all the preptime he needs then you've handed him a huge advantage, in any system even close to DnD 3.5 this is almost a deathwarrent.

Well, he is a mage. It's kind of a given. Thank heavens I have all these "uber" abilities, then, eh? :smallwink:


So he'll be facing off against everyone he's ever known or loved (provided he doesn't suck the buisness end of a mindgank post dispel)

What should I call this one? Off Button. I like the sound of that. Hi, loads and loads of allies! Aren't you surprised to be here!


which is a problem since a mage can prep any of these, lots of them are based around useful spells whatever the situation and all of them are needed if you don't know what spells a mage has in his brain.

Indeed. That's where the party comes into play.

In a real situation, you will of course have a caster of some sort, as well as a skillmonkey and support. However, four beatsticks with a mixed basket of these abilities would still have a decent chance to make mashed potatoes out of the local wiz.


Ok, there'll be breaks in it and that's not available constantly untill you've got a lot of cash to throw around.

And that's unfortunate, and that is one of the wizard's distinct advantages. You can buffer it with nondetection (cheaper) but even that won't be foolproof.

May as well wait until you can sense the scrying sensor, and then have your way with a lovely lady. Or throw darts at a poster labeled "wizard." Something to make sure he gets the full value of his spell. :smallcool:


oh, sounds like a big bunch of abilities, to the point where you need to share if we're going to help.

Meh; just some feats.


Then suck suprise round, if he doesn't high tail it.

Yup. Better hope you can survive that. Ignore Spell!


Then he gets the drop round after round or just leaves your plucky team of mage slayers and goes have some tea hundreds of miles away, neither really fill the sagas with your glory.

Let's face it; phantom steed is too powerful. Giving the same to anybody else would make this flat-out some kind of ridiculous Naruto/Dragonball battle. If he wants to come and play, then wait until he's within engaging distance and introduce him to Staple Wizard. Maybe we should have a Staple Wizard To Ground.


Sounds preeeetty uber...

Hold on.


useful for forcing the fight, even gives the monk a role to the sounds of it.

Oh, the monk's surprisingly practical now.


the uber is growing towards something a trifle curdled

Keep holding...


cheese power you've got growing there.

Still wait...


120K a shot. Everyone in the team HAS to have one.

Big expense. That's why I'd rather have a wizard on my side. Unfortunately, as the boards have long established, all wizards are jerks who exploit their uber power to rule the world.


hmmmmm..... how hard is this Ignore everything that guy trys to do even though it's all he's capable of and he can level mountains with it to get hold of?

Ignore Everything is also a catchy name, also Deus Ex has a funky ring to it.

Alright, let's look at this fairly.

Did he use a Calling effect? Spell's over. you can't Ignore Spell away the balor he's so kindly asked to mash your face in.

Did he create undead? Ouch; you gotta fight that one. Can't Ignore Spell a being that's independent of the magic that created it.

Did he make a wall of stone? WHAM. Ow, that hurt, cause it was real. Can't Ignore real things.

Is he flying? I can "Ignore Wizard", until he does something distracting, I suppose, but as much as I might want to Ignore Spell, my ignorance thereof doesn't make him any less up in the sky.

Did he plane shift himself? Well, that would be an example of the Spell Ignore-ing me. Can't stop him.

Did he cast a Quickened fireball alongside his regular one? Crap, didn't have time to Ignore the Quickened one, I was busy Ignore-ing the first one.

Did he dominate that dragon? Phooey. I can Ignore the spell, but I can't ignore the dragon.

Is he casting a prismatic spray on us? No problem, I'll just Ignore Spell that. Hey, you don't look so good. I guess I couldn't Ignore it for you. Drat.

Oh no; he's an Archmage and made his favorite fighter-killer into a spell-like ability! Ignore Spell! ... -like? Crap, that didn't work. I R Dead.

[mostlyharmful]

Honestly? The peer reviews we've had on the material so far indicate very favorable opinions. One even stole the idea for his own campaign. As I'll explain shortly, there's not nearly as much uber here as you think.

good, as I said can we see them? I'm not doubting the fun you have but it sounds like you've altered the tactical game into something new.



Yup. And that's the way of the world. Of course, if you staple him to the floor while he's breaking your stuff, then you have a chance to charge him and knock his head off.


This Staple to the floor is having to cover a whole bunch of escape routes and a wizards stuff can be used from quite some distance so it'll need a significant range too. also, he'll have defensive spells and items up while you are now charging him with your barehands (or at best a cruddy mundane backup weapon). not undoable but it definately favours him.


Well, he is a mage. It's kind of a given. Thank heavens I have all these "uber" abilities, then, eh? :smallwink:

Which you need to spec out for us if we're to tell you if they cover all the bases, are workable in game and don't make a big part of the game (being a caster) just as irrelivant as being a meatsack is under standerd rules. Some people like that, some don't, but this forum doesn't know which it is or how to work with you on it at the mo.



What should I call this one? Off Button. I like the sound of that. Hi, loads and loads of allies! Aren't you surprised to be here!

All at the same time? When he had to use multiple spells and some of them are instantaneous effects? ok, but again big power.



Indeed. That's where the party comes into play.

In a real situation, you will of course have a caster of some sort, as well as a skillmonkey and support. However, four beatsticks with a mixed basket of these abilities would still have a decent chance to make mashed potatoes out of the local wiz.

ah, now I see the problem. Your group wants to make a party of just these guys, this isn't a PrC or a lone battle or an antimage focussed build it's creating standerd PC abilities for your world so Mages can't do a whole bunch of their things. hmmmmm...... in that case why not think about just pruning the spell lists since it's them that's the root of the problem, you've already done it with Astral and Contact so why not go to town? be easier to work and balance and remember than a whole slew of new other powers to drag the game back.



And that's unfortunate, and that is one of the wizard's distinct advantages. You can buffer it with nondetection (cheaper) but even that won't be foolproof.

May as well wait until you can sense the scrying sensor, and then have your way with a lovely lady. Or throw darts at a poster labeled "wizard." Something to make sure he gets the full value of his spell. :smallcool:

nice image.



Meh; just some feats.

some really powerful ones, the antimage feats available at the moment (mageslayer line, etc.) aren't in anywhere near the same league.



Yup. Better hope you can survive that. Ignore Spell!

So just make it SR and get rid of the SR:No spells



Let's face it; phantom steed is too powerful. Giving the same to anybody else would make this flat-out some kind of ridiculous Naruto/Dragonball battle. If he wants to come and play, then wait until he's within engaging distance and introduce him to Staple Wizard. Maybe we should have a Staple Wizard To Ground.

yes it is too powerful but there's monsters out there that do the same, there's others that pop up out of the walls or stay ethereal and rain down force effects,



Hold on.

holding....



Oh, the monk's surprisingly practical now.

great, sharing roles and making sure your classes can fill them, what was your monk fix (i've got at least five at any one time dependant on what the other guy thinks monks are)



Keep holding...

still holding.....



Still wait...

dum de dum de dum.... thumb-twidling



Big expense. That's why I'd rather have a wizard on my side. Unfortunately, as the boards have long established, all wizards are jerks who exploit their uber power to rule the world.


not alllllll of them just the NPC ones, seriously look up the Batman guide, the whole point in it is to play to your niche and give the other guys a role, be a team player in other words.


Alright, let's look at this fairly.

Did he use a Calling effect? Spell's over. you can't Ignore Spell away the balor he's so kindly asked to mash your face in.

Did he create undead? Ouch; you gotta fight that one. Can't Ignore Spell a being that's independent of the magic that created it.

Did he make a wall of stone? WHAM. Ow, that hurt, cause it was real. Can't Ignore real things.

Is he flying? I can "Ignore Wizard", until he does something distracting, I suppose, but as much as I might want to Ignore Spell, my ignorance thereof doesn't make him any less up in the sky.

Did he plane shift himself? Well, that would be an example of the Spell Ignore-ing me. Can't stop him.

Did he cast a Quickened fireball alongside his regular one? Crap, didn't have time to Ignore the Quickened one, I was busy Ignore-ing the first one.

Did he dominate that dragon? Phooey. I can Ignore the spell, but I can't ignore the dragon.

Is he casting a prismatic spray on us? No problem, I'll just Ignore Spell that. Hey, you don't look so good. I guess I couldn't Ignore it for you. Drat.

Oh no; he's an Archmage and made his favorite fighter-killer into a spell-like ability! Ignore Spell! ... -like? Crap, that didn't work. I R Dead.

so it's like the dodge feat but for magic, it only works on direct stuff that affects you and is cast by the one guy you can ignore at any one time. ok, that sounds a whole lot less broken, still hugely powerful but not totally borked.

So we've got -

1. Ignore Spell - targetable nigh infinate SR versus one caster that you must dedicate on a round by round style of thing
2. Tractor Beam - Debuff a mage of his travel options on the tactical scale, DimDoor, Phantom Steed, Flight, Incorporeal, Gaseous, Burrowing, etc.... This applies to time as well as space, no Celerity, Moment of Prescience, NerveSkitter or other Initiative cooking
3. Staple Mage - Shapechanging is right out, this one also needs to be constantly affective and untargeted otherwise it's no use as you can't do it to everyone and everything even the ones you haven't seen yet.
4. Off Button - All mindganking, no matter the source, gets sorted out on an unlimited number of targets, doable even if the character is unaware of the ganking in question otherwise they'd not stand a chance
5. Hands Over Eyes - If the mage gets the drop in terms of knowing what to expect then he'll win, he can prep more than you can be ready for so I still think it's a good plan to build in something to control the infomation flow both ways long before Mindblank becomes available either to PC casters or as NPC paid casting
6. I see you - There are no illusions for this player, ever, under any circumstance
7. Wear your own clothes - The mage is stuck in their own body, no soul jumping
8. Boring Landscape - No massive altering of terrain or features, no turning the ceiling to lava or the floor into a big hole or the walls of the deep deep cavern into putty.
9. Barracks Lawyer - When in doubt...... Any spell not covered by the above or circumspect within each respective domain of the 'game world' shall be the property of the 'Dungeon Master' with reference to his veto perogative. All parties participant to the collective enterprise shall be aware that in lew of their signiture or affadavid their presence and/or participation shall be held as binding on all said rules and exemptions to be determined at a future time in regard to the 'Dungeon Masters' duties. No party or parties shall be at liberty to discuss or divulge with other parties the means or intent to disrupt said gaming experiance.

[afroakuma]

so it's like the dodge feat but for magic, it only works on direct stuff that affects you and is cast by the one guy you can ignore at any one time. ok, that sounds a whole lot less broken, still hugely powerful but not totally borked.

Close. I'll try to explain.


So we've got -

1. Ignore Spell - targetable nigh infinate SR versus one caster that you must dedicate on a round by round style of thing

Specifically, it's "Pick a single spell effect this round that would affect you in any way whatsoever. You are exempted entirely from the effects of that spell, for as long as it remains in force." So if the wizard casts time stop, you can exempt yourself from it. Summoning spells are given an explicit inclusion; the summoned creature can attack your friends, block your view, yada yada but can't harm you even if it tries to, nor can it forcibly impede you in any fashion.


2. Tractor Beam - Debuff a mage of his travel options on the tactical scale, DimDoor, Phantom Steed, Flight, Incorporeal, Gaseous, Burrowing, etc.... This applies to time as well as space, no Celerity, Moment of Prescience, NerveSkitter or other Initiative cooking

Gaseous is covered under Staple Mage. Burrowing is not covered. This ability specifically affects phantom steed, levitate and flight.


3. Staple Mage - Shapechanging is right out, this one also needs to be constantly affective and untargeted otherwise it's no use as you can't do it to everyone and everything even the ones you haven't seen yet.

Specifically, this one Mode Locks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ModeLock) the victim for a short time. You wanted to be a cloud of gas? Fine; I have this bottle that I use for catching genies, but you'll do. You wanted to be a dire tortoise? Well, you get the first round advantage, but after that we'll see who's shell-shocked.


4. Off Button - All mindganking, no matter the source, gets sorted out on an unlimited number of targets, doable even if the character is unaware of the ganking in question otherwise they'd not stand a chance

Sorted out on a limited number of targets who should know better. Doesn't get you squat on someone Diplomacied to the Dark Side. The dominated balor will still probably try to kill you. It's also relatively short-range and short duration, so you have to hurry.


5. Hands Over Eyes - If the mage gets the drop in terms of knowing what to expect then he'll win, he can prep more than you can be ready for so I still think it's a good plan to build in something to control the infomation flow both ways long before Mindblank becomes available either to PC casters or as NPC paid casting

As I said, the most hilarious way to do this is to spoil his spell by making him watch stupid things.


6. I see you - There are no illusions for this player, ever, under any circumstance

Again, case-activated. Does not bypass phantasms or patterns. Limited use per day.


7. Wear your own clothes - The mage is stuck in their own body, no soul jumping

Oddly, the wizard may end up doing this to himself...

If not, then this is still a big concern. Though he doesn't have astral projection, the wizard can most definitely magic jar his way to victory. If you were going to have a caster in the party, this would be the time. An upcoming spell (tentatively titled yank back) would potentially mitigate these shenanigans.


8. Boring Landscape - No massive altering of terrain or features, no turning the ceiling to lava or the floor into a big hole or the walls of the deep deep cavern into putty.

Can't stop him from doing that, unless he opens a gate horizontally along the floor or some such, in which case you can just elect not to pass through.

The thing is, I'm designing a setting, not a system. A lower-magic setting, where use of magic happens to be the biggest scare of their time. An Arabian Nights setting, in which the mundane heroes really do just Ignore Spells and Staple Wizards... the latter usually involving a sword. The cosmology of the setting bans most planar effects, which is why contact other plane and astral projection aren't a concern. I have special dispensation to nerf gate, for similar reasons. Beyond that, I am largely restricted to only add, not subtract.

[mostlyharmful]

sounds like you've got a working prototype for turning wizards back into showy conjurors with squishy vital organs. sounds fun.

Battlefield control, Summoning/Calling, necromantic giggles and Illusion sounds just about exactly right for an arabian nights themed campaign.

[afroakuma]

That's basically the plan; expand the wizard's repertoire of the stuff that's just plain fun; and give the mundanes a decent shot at keeping him grounded (literally). Wizards get to pick up all sorts of incredible new spells, like baleful suggestion, columns of flame, mirage, nested image, programmed contingecy, soul blank, sparkling jewels of the seven sands and unquenchable fire of the sun. They lose: the ability to play the game without risking anything (astral projection), the ability to know everything at everytime for no charge (contact other plane) and gate-cheese.

Sounds like a fair trade to me.