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afroakuma
2009-05-18, 09:11 PM
Alright: You're a ragtag melee combatant without a maneuver to your name. Heck, be a group of same. Say, 4 to 6.

You have a wizard to kill. And not just any wizard. This one's level 20. He might be an incantatrix twinked out to unleash thousands of damage. He might be an Abrupt Jaunting, Contingency-Celerity-Time Stop exploiter. He might just have a thick dossier on how best to ruin someone's day with polymorph and shapechange.

You and your pals are all level 20, with budgets to match and a magic mart that makes the selection here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14) look puny. The gods, in a fit of mercy, have made it so that the wizard cannot cast a gate spell until the creatures from a previous gate have gone. The gods, in a fit of mercy, have denied the wizard astral projection and genesis. The gods, in a fit of marvelous unfairness, told the wizard that you were coming. He has set out a royal welcome.

You have no artificers, no Pun-Pun, no Ubercharger, no Hulking Hurler, no Diplomancer and are all out of cheese. You have no spellcasters in classes that grant 5th level or higher spells. You have no chance to survive, make your time.

Can you punch out the wizard?

If not, what would you need to be able to do so? (Note: This question is not "what deficiencies would the wizard need" but rather "what would you need to be able to do?")

Flickerdart
2009-05-18, 09:24 PM
Ring of Three Wishes. All wishes are "help me out here, universe." If that don't work, you're screwed.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-18, 09:25 PM
Ok, Bard 5 and Wizard 5. Both Elans. Bard has Misquito's (sp) Bite.

You wait till the Wizard decides to camp under the stars. Why would he? You are Elans for a reason...you will never die of old age, so there is a distinct probability that he will feel that urge sometime in his life.

Wizard Flys and Invisibles you both. The Bard casts summon instrument to summon something that would count as a light improvised weapon. Since the wizard is asleep, he is flat-footed, and a target for Misquito's Bite with your instrument. It doesnt technically count as an attack, so no contingencies go off.

You use all of your spell slots dropping mandolins on a helpless Wizard from 2000 ft. Hope it kills him, or you will have to run.

This is of course assuming that the gods tell him and he goes "Ha, 5th level characters?! I could take them in my sleep!" and decides not to act on it. Otherwise, you are 100% screwed.


EDIT: I tottally misread that :smalltongue:, somehow thinking that you were 5th level, and all spellcasters in classes that grant 5th level or higher spells. Go figure :smallbiggrin: Maybe it counts anyway, seeing that a Bard is doing the heavylifting :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-05-18, 09:33 PM
In the immortal words of Korgoth:
"I don't do Wizards."


But seriously, you can even cold the Wizard. If he makes mistakes. A ton of them. And you get lucky. First, he needs to:
-Decide to fight you instead of relocating his stronghold to a more peaceful place or binding a few Pit Fiends to end you.
-Decide that you're not worth using XP on and thus refuse to use Gate.
-Decide that you're not worth using money on and thus forbid himself the use of Crafted Contingencies, charge items and such.
-Decide that you're not a real threat and leave his buffing half-way unfinished.

If all this is true, all he has on him is one contingency, Celerity+Foresight, Shapechange and few random weaker buffs. This is easy; have enough guys Shoot Him For Lethal, have people spread out, and shoot him for lethal again after his contingency has whisked him somewhere, hopefully within your reach, before he gets to act. Sure, it takes really, really pimped out shooters to hit the guy (if he doesn't want to be hit), but it's possible.

The biggest problem is that he's maybe 300000000 times more mobile than you are without equipment magic (which you'll make heavy use of, but as the abilities are inherent to him, there're many distinct advantages to his method). So getting to him is seriously a fcking pain, especially since Scrying loses to Mind Blank (or hell, his level of Nondetection if he feels like it) so you can't even Scry'n'die on him. If you can get him to engage you so that you can fight back, you've got a solid chance.

TheLogman
2009-05-18, 09:34 PM
The best answer is an item of antimagic field, preferably 4 of them. Make it a ring.

Make it so the ring makes antimagic field at will, on or off. This means the only thing he can hit you with is a Mage's Disjunction, which he could have up to 6 of, plus any scrolls. So pack a LOT of them. Or, somehow rig up a ring of counterspelling to make it so you can't be mage's disjunctioned.

Then just knife him. HARD.

This WOULD require some sneaking. A team of 4 rogues with maxed move silently and hide could do it though. So the only question is how to find him, and how to get to him. Both of these are difficult questions, except that we have weapons and items that can do it and set it all up. Just find him, verify in case of tricky magic, teleport it, turn on the rings of antimagic, and then sneak up to him, laugh as his magic fails to wake him, and knife him to death.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-18, 09:35 PM
Okay, retrying, actually knowing the rules this time :smallwink:

You and your companions are all Artificers :smallbiggrin: Might want to edit the inital conditions to not allow that.


Different tactic, more in the spirit of the rules. You order a magic item that gives you Antimagic field at will. You also each have an item of spell turning that was made by an Initiate of Mystra. You hope to heck that this can disable most/all of the wizard's safeguards.


More ideas coming when I think of them.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-18, 09:39 PM
1. Invent ICBM
2. Fire ICBM at wizard

afroakuma
2009-05-18, 09:41 PM
You and your companions are all Artificers :smallbiggrin: Might want to edit the inital conditions to not allow that.

Rules changed accordingly.

Eldariel
2009-05-18, 09:44 PM
Anti-Magic Field is a pretty horrible idea. 10' emanation basically just disables any magic items you have removing the small inkling of hope you've got to win. I mean, the Wizard might just sleep as a friggin' Dire Tortoise meaning he always acts on the surprise round. And he's very likely not sleeping in an inn when he can just make a Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion.

Of course, that's not even to mention the fact that Mindsight reveals you. And I don't find it unlikely to have a crafted contingency "if Anti-Magic Field is being activated within 30' from me...", which would screw up this plan hard. Not to even mention the fact that he knows you're coming. He can use Contact Other Plane to determine the exact second of your arrival. As Gods have foretold it...well, you're the hapless one here. Sufficient to say: It's a TRAP!

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-18, 09:56 PM
Super Leadership Man! Has tons of cohorts who have leadership, and their cohorts have leadership, and so on, down to level 13. Assuming everyone starts with Buffed up Charisma (18+level adjustments+4 magic), Great Renown, Fairness and Generosity, Special Power, You have a stronghold and you have the feats Undead Leadership,Close Cohort, and Leadership, you have:

Level 20 (34), 2 Level 17 (30), 4 Level 16 (29), 8 Level 15 (27), 16 Level 14 (26), 32 Level 13 (25) = 126 Leadership scores of 25+ :smallbiggrin:
1st--17010
2nd--1638
3rd--882
4th--504
5th--252
6th--252

Make them all Warlocks :smalleek: with Eldritch Spear and Maximize Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast).

Rig up a large Ring Gate System: 1000 of them fire at 1 ring gate. You would need like 20 sets, and then put the recieving ends all pointed at one ring gate. You hold that one. If you shout "NOW!", point it at the wizard, and succeed on your touch attack, you should do 137,592 untyped damage. :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

EDIT: Allright, Good. Artificers could easily disrupt this.

afroakuma
2009-05-18, 09:57 PM
Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-18, 10:00 PM
A magic item of Celerity maybe?

Tohron
2009-05-18, 10:08 PM
I assume that since Astral Projection is banned for the Wizard, then self-Simulacrums are also banned? And what are the limits to where the Wizard can choose to locate himself? If he chose to stick around Mechanus, for example, then the attacking fighters might soon encounter a bunch of angry Modrons who aren't happy with their attempts to start a fight.

Haven
2009-05-18, 10:12 PM
Well...Null Psionics Field would probably bypass all "Whenever an antimagic field is set off nearby" contingencies, at least. Beyond that, I have no idea.

SadisticFishing
2009-05-18, 10:16 PM
What about Use Magic Device? Get enough scrolls that you're basically 5 wizards, except with better defenses.

afroakuma
2009-05-18, 10:17 PM
The wizard can choose to be anywhere that your ragtag band can go. If he goes to Mechanus, then your ragtag band can do likewise.

Self-Simulactrums are banned, as is Ice Assassin (or whatever it's called).

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-18, 10:57 PM
Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.

Wait, you forgot psionics as well. Edit that 1st post again :smallbiggrin:

If someone knows all of the information, gets to act first, has the right tool for the job, and has near unlimited power, there is not much you can do against them. You must deny them of some of their advantages.

Example Tactics:
1. Mislead him. He thinks you just activated antimagic field, but you really activated spell turning. When he hits you with his uber Orb, he will be really sorry.
2. Get an item of unlimited celerity. If you go first, you have some chance, however small it might be.
3. If you send in telporting suicide squads, he will not be able to prepare spells if you time it properly. This works best if you have an item of "transporation" gate and have a thrallherd.
4. Have a justicar hogtie him with antimagic shackles.

Preferabbly do them all. One of them probably will not let you win, two might, three gives you a slight chance, and four gives you a moderate shot.

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-18, 11:36 PM
OK, so we have our 4 items of anti-magic field as per above. This is a great start. But what about our rag-tag team of go-getter wizard killers?

Better have somebody with the entire mage slayer feat tree. Preferably somebody with reach. This goes without saying, I should think.

But these people need to be at their best in said anti-magic field... which means magic items, buffs, etc. etc. are not what this is about. Get ready, cause I am about to blow your mind.

Hero #1:
Soul Knife 4/Soul Bow 10/Ranger 6

This guy has a powerful magical weapon even in an Anti-Magic field, +16 BAB, and an attack with incredible range. Oh, and his mind arrows are suppression, which means even without the AMF he can de-buff the wizard. Feats should focus on increasing his range and #of attacks.

Hero #2
Monk 20
Another guy that's very at home in the AMF. This guy just shadows the wizard making sure the AMF moves with him, and if necessary initiating a grapple. Jump-amancy comes in handy as well in case the wizard takes to the sky.

Hero #3
Spellthief 20.
Who needs to cast 5th+ level spells when you can just STEAL THEM! Disjunctions be damned, steal those and send them back at him. Of course, this is all irrelevant with the AMF's up, but it would certainly be nice to have as a back up plan if (read: when) the wizard starts casting spells anyway.

Hero #4
Half Ogre Fighter 4/Factotum 15

Large with a large spiked chain and the mage slayer feat tree. Very nice in the anti-magic field because practically all class features are Ex., including cunning surge which gives him extra standard actions.

I believe this team, equipped with plenty of items of AMF would stand a reasonable chance against the wizard.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-19, 01:01 AM
Can you just punch out the DM, and run away with the wizard's sheet?
Well, my other idea is to give him bread, butter, and ham. He already have the cheese...

Alleine
2009-05-19, 01:09 AM
One person with full ranks in knowledge: Siege weapons, craft: Siege weapons, and Weapon Proficiency: Siege Weapons.

Since you're all fighters or somesuch, you've got health to spare, so a teensy little drop probably won't phase you. Pimp out the catapult with all sorts of great enchantments to make it throw further and faster and turn the ammunition into all sorts of colourful things that cause pain. Make several of these catapults, then launch the rest of the party at the Wizard simultaneously.

What's more fun than one enchanted fighter used as catapult ammo? 5 of them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 01:20 AM
You don't. The Wizard knows you're coming.
Round 1: You say 'Yes, well do it'.
Round 2: Wizard: Greater Teleport, Contingency(Celerity[I cast Greater Teleport]), Rod-Maximized Timestop
Round 2: Wizard is Dazed, T1
Round 3: Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Dimension Anchor, T2
Round 4: Delayed Blast Iceball, Quickened Solid Fog, T3
Round 5: Delayed Blast Fireball, T4
Round 6: Greater Teleport, Quickened Cloudkill, T5
Round 7: Timestop ends, you take 60d6 damage, and you're stuck moving 5 ft per round while you take 1d4 Con damage a round. In other words, you die.

Final cost-1 4th, 1 6th, 7 7th, 1 8th, 1 9th.

potatocubed
2009-05-19, 01:37 AM
Hmm. The AMFs are a good start, but what you also need is a way to track and follow the wizard nearly-instantly when he sees four huge anti-magiced blokes coming to kill him and flees to another plane entirely.

Your other option is to try and take him by surprise even though he knows you're coming, since his low hp are his primary weakness. Similarly, make sure all your weapons are loaded with Con-damaging poison. Or Int-damaging poison - if you can start knocking his Int down below 19, he becomes a lot less threatening in a very short space of time.

Could you smear your entire body in Int-damaging contact poison, then grapple him? I mean, as a fighter you have a) good Fort and b) little to fear from an Int of 2 so long as you can remember "hug the wizard".

Quietus
2009-05-19, 02:05 AM
You don't. The Wizard knows you're coming.
Round 1: You say 'Yes, well do it'.
Round 2: Wizard: Greater Teleport, Contingency(Celerity[I cast Greater Teleport]), Rod-Maximized Timestop
Round 2: Wizard is Dazed, T1
Round 3: Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Dimension Anchor, T2
Round 4: Delayed Blast Iceball, Quickened Solid Fog, T3
Round 5: Delayed Blast Fireball, T4
Round 6: Greater Teleport, Quickened Cloudkill, T5
Round 7: Timestop ends, you take 60d6 damage, and you're stuck moving 5 ft per round while you take 1d4 Con damage a round. In other words, you die.

Final cost-1 4th, 1 6th, 7 7th, 1 8th, 1 9th.

Except that Time Stop doesn't give you ACTUAL turns. It gives you rounds of "apparent time", during which time you're dazed, because of your Celerity. "apparent time" isn't "real time", thus can't be used to evade the Dazed effect of Celerity.

My interpretation, of course, but I tend to go with the one that doesn't break the game.

As for this thought exercise, the very first thing you do is get as much anti-scry/divination magic items as you can get your grubby mitts on. If you can get the ability to deflect rays/orbs/spells, so much the better. Templates are good; I like the Flying template, as it's only LA +2 (can be bought off easily by 20), and gives +4 dex, +2 wis, and a fly speed of land speed+20 feet, at a maneuverability based on your dex. 17+ dex = perfect maneuverability.

A straight 20 Monk character with the Flying template gets a super fast fly speed (if you insist on the broken interpretation of Celerity, then I'll go ahead and say "30 foot base speed +60 enhancement, 90 foot base speed. 110 foot base fly speed, +60 enhancement, 170 fly speed, perfect maneuverability". Add Anti-magic item as you wish, because all of this is (Ex). Charging 340 feet in any direction is fun!

If you've got a Contingency against approaching Anti-magic fields, then I know I can pepper you with arrows from afar. Or just charge+stun. Or disarm that mithril heavy fortification buckler every high level Wizard supposedly has, and stun you. The key is for everyone in the party to have quick-escape buttons ready, in case things don't go according to plan. Don't let the Wizard know more than you can avoid, and try to learn as much as you can about him. Using the Monk above to learn as much as possible (and, if you can find a way to do it, getting that spell-deflection ability in there) uses the Monk's one strength - the ability to survive many situations - and takes advantage of it as an advance scout. Learn what you can hit the Wizard with, then do it. Be more creative than he is, and be crafty about it.

Killer Angel
2009-05-19, 03:25 AM
what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance?


You must see him, the better you can, so True Seeing for all the pcs.
You also need mobility. The whole group needs a LOT of mobility, or you're screwed. Having mobility, you can try to escape wizard's attack (even those of the creature he can use against you) and you can have a chance to be dangerous.
At least 1 horizon walker pc with shifting mastery (2 is better), and at least 3 other pc's must have similar possibility (D.D. or teleport with spells or equipment), but given the lack of high level spells, you'll need those 4th and 5th spell slots...
Imo, before reasoning on tactics, you'll should have these requisites; without them, you'll stand no chance.

Zaq
2009-05-19, 04:10 AM
Okay. The Wizard is going to go first. Between Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Contingency (both spell version and Craft version) and the old block-o-muenster (Greater) Celerity, the Wizard is clearly going to get the first volley. You need a way to survive the first volley. You need to make it so that even when he blows his wad on you, he can't get all of you at once. This will be tricky, of course, since he can have pals around (summoned, bound, gated, or whatever), he gets several rounds to work with (damn you Timestop!), he can teleport away if you pull something he doesn't expect, and all the other delightful tricks that a wizzie gets. The point is, to even think about punching out the wizard, you need to survive a round (or so) of everything he can throw at you. After you actually get to, you know, act, then we can worry about penetrating his defenses, getting past his contingent teleports, making sure that the one you hit is the real one, and all that good stuff. Step one is making sure some or all of you survive until your initiative (and, since it's not a guarantee even then, your first actual action) comes up.

Honestly I'm not sure how we go about doing this. If we can get some nice items of contingent Disjunction (possibly wished-for, since we can buy rings of wishes), that's a start. AMF won't cut it... he's got orbs, disjunctions of his own, summons, the ability to transform into very very nasty things, and if that weren't enough, Wish. If we can deny him his extra actions (gained via timestop, celerity, contingencies, and summons), we can start to press the action advantage and hope that he can't take out more than one or two of us per shot, which at least means we don't have to stick to scientific notation to talk about our chances. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is the epic feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), but that's 1) epic, 2) requires spellcasting, and 3) not enough on its own. But it's kind of the thing that we're looking for, something that will match or negate some of his first-turn action advantages.

So, in a nutshell, here's what we're looking at:

1) The wizard will go first, and will take multiple effective actions on his first turn.
2) We cannot survive his first turn if he gets off all his timestops and contingencies and everything, so we need a way to negate those, possibly with our own contingencies.
3) Once we manage to mitigate that advantage, we need to find a way to ensure that even though some of us will surely bite it, some of us will survive long enough to even begin to think about breaching his actual defenses.

Thought: A Frenzied Berserker with Death Ward and some contingent "no" buttons is pretty hard to kill. The wizard can certainly do it, but the more effort we have to make him spend to do so, the better. The problem remains of the wizard going first and getting way more than a single round's worth of actions (actual or effective) before we even get to twitch a muscle.

arguskos
2009-05-19, 04:16 AM
I'm personally curious, is there any chance that you could have a Contingent Celerity triggered to "When someone else casts Celerity"? If so, doesn't yours happen first? If yes, then you get a single free action to beat on the wizard with.

Just a machete for your intellectual thicket, so to speak. :smallwink:

jcsw
2009-05-19, 05:20 AM
I'd like to point out this very wrenchthrowing spell, Book of Exalted Deeds, Starmantle.

Combined with Spell Compendium, Ruin Delver's Fortune.

Combined with somehow gaining free persistent metamagics.

Eldan
2009-05-19, 05:46 AM
Well.... I would do this with four rogues, all of which have max ranks in Use Magic device, Skill Focus: Use Magic device and their highest stat in charisma.

They they would spend all their money on scrolls and copy all the tricks the wizard would try. Of course, that is cheesy.

toddex
2009-05-19, 05:52 AM
More wizards? Or psions, that would be fun.

Eldariel
2009-05-19, 06:17 AM
I'm personally curious, is there any chance that you could have a Contingent Celerity triggered to "When someone else casts Celerity"? If so, doesn't yours happen first? If yes, then you get a single free action to beat on the wizard with.

Just a machete for your intellectual thicket, so to speak. :smallwink:

Isn't that what all Wizard duels with Craft Contingent Spell in play come down to? :o

Malacode
2009-05-19, 06:23 AM
Hmm... Level 20 wealth, eh?

Hire an NPC spellcaster for a day. Preferably a Sorcerer, as they'll last longer with their millions of spell slots. This -is- just a straight fight

Telonius
2009-05-19, 08:11 AM
Just thinking out loud here ... on the matter of surviving everything he has to throw at you in the first round, Knight20 can survive any amount of direct damage other than Disintegrate.

The party needs to be able to ...

1). Survive the first volley.
2). Somehow disable or render ineffective the Wizard's Contingent spells (i.e. "teleport away if guy with big sword is going to hit me") in the first round before attacking.
3). Get to the Wizard and deliver some sort of status attack and/or massive damage.
3a). In order to do this, you will need to:
- punch through all of the Wizard's buffs to actually hit him
- most likely, overcome at least one immunity
- get around any minions
- get around any summoned creatures
- be able to navigate whatever terrain the Wizard has prepared for you (up in the air, underwater, in a room full of traps, he's turned into an elemental and is now inside the rock, etc)
- disbelieve any illusions, choose the right Mirror Image, overcome concealment... basically overcome any sort of miss chance he's got up

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:27 AM
Alright, so: Firstly, we need to negate the advantages he gets in his first round.

Contact other plane requires the gods' cooperation, so let's assume that's out.

An item of mind blank will let you make your other preparations without him knowing exactly what's coming.

A) What is the likelihood of surviving the opening round now?

B) How to get past contingency?

Telonius
2009-05-19, 12:00 PM
Getting past Contingency... I can think of two ways of overcoming it that might exist: general or targeted. For a general method, you'd need to find something that overcomes all Contingent Spells, period. For a targeted method, you'd need to find out what Contingent Spells this particular Wizard has up, then figure out a way to not trigger the Contingency.

Zaq
2009-05-19, 12:23 PM
Hmmm. Is there any way we can try to feed him false information while hiding behind our Mind Blanks? Make him think that we're coming in one group when we're really coming in two, spring all his contingencies the first time, and have the second group do the dirty work? I don't think this would work (he'd probably zap back to his MMM after blowing his first wad at us), but it's a possibility.

Aquillion
2009-05-19, 12:44 PM
Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.What do you mean "besides?"

He knows you're coming. If he plays absolutely perfectly and doesn't screw up at all, you are screwed, even if you're another wizard yourself. He gets to prepare and you have to fight on his home turf. Nothing you can do (short of absurd cheese, which is banned and would be used by the Wizard if it wasn't banned) is going to make up for those disadvantages.

...now, with that said, I have to go with the same general strategy someone else posted. Play as an Elan. Wait for the wizard to screw up, die of old age, or get killed by someone else. When he does, find his corpse and punch it. (Note that since he knew you were coming, he likely crafted a contingency on his corpse to punish you for doing this, so even this is not guaranteed to work.) It is possible that he will ascend to divinity first. C'est la vie.

For some of the suggested things: If the Wizard is really abusing Craft Contingent Spell, you won't be able to blow them all the first time. And this assumes he's not just abusing the trap-creation rules; if you're fighting on his home turf, that's a factor to consider.

Tehnar
2009-05-19, 12:44 PM
I think the crux of the issue is how does a contingency spell operate? Can it in fact trigger on "when someone other then me activates a antimagic field within 30" of myself".

I personally would only allow triggering conditions that follow the guideline stated in the magic mouth spell, with the inclusion of status effects that could it affect the caster.

Thus in the example stated above, the contingency spell would not work as it could not determine if a antimagic field went off nearby. And my rulings are based on: if a rule is unclear, why choose the obviously broken path?

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 01:15 PM
What do you mean "besides?"

What I mean is, if that's what you are planning to answer with, don't bother.

Let's move it up a notch: You're able to bypass his contingencies through some obscure, unspecified fashion.

Now what?

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 01:26 PM
Let's move it up a notch: You're able to bypass his contingencies through some obscure, unspecified fashion.

Now what?

Now it doesn't matter because you're reduced to abusing DM Fiat to even get a chance at touching him; little lone actually punching him.

The super safe bet is being a level 1 Elan noble of Tippyland and wait. Either the wizard dies of old age then you win. The wizard comes to kill you invoking the wrath of Tippyland and you win. Or the wizard kills himself in some way to become immortal and you win because he was dead for a short amount of time.

Alternatively, the wizard ascends to divinity and you just outright lose.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 01:32 PM
Now it doesn't matter because you're reduced to abusing DM Fiat to even get a chance at touching him; little lone actually punching him.

You mean "let alone," do you not?

So even without preparation and bereft of contingencies, with any magic items that will fit in the budget, you're saying it would be impossible to hit the wizard?

Fine; then what would you need to be capable of doing, again besides being a caster, to do so?

Gralamin
2009-05-19, 01:33 PM
You mean "let alone," do you not?

So even without preparation and bereft of contingencies, with any magic items that will fit in the budget, you're saying it would be impossible to hit the wizard?

Fine; then what would you need to be capable of doing, again besides being a caster, to do so?

Having a Caster Cohort :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 01:44 PM
Having a Caster Cohort :smalltongue:

This is exactly the sort of useless answer that I'm trying to avoid. :smallannoyed:

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 01:46 PM
You mean "let alone," do you not?

No, I mean little lone. Dialect.


So even without preparation and bereft of contingencies, with any magic items that will fit in the budget, you're saying it would be impossible to hit the wizard?

Foresight + Celerity + Daze Immunity. Rod-Quickened Rod-Maximized Time Stop. Throw down a Delayed Blast Ice/Fire/Acid/Lightningball and, if he's an Archmage, Sonicball plus quickened buffs. Eat 10d6 damage of each damage type(ensuring you don't resist them all and telling him exactly what you are weak against) then fight him in all his glory. His second actual turn: Rod-Twinned Celerity. Followed up by double Rod-Maximized Split Ray Disintegrate on the entire party. And that's just outright blasting, ignoring if he instead just Celerity + Greater Teleported away and left magical traps to kill you instead.

EDIT: To clarify. Without cheating like the devil himself you aren't going to win within the parameters set. Not even if you had an AMF since he's just going to Greater Teleport away. Why bother using Mordenkainen's Disjunction when fleeing is that much easier?

arguskos
2009-05-19, 01:48 PM
Fine; then what would you need to be capable of doing, again besides being a caster, to do so?
You'd need to be able to:

A). FIND the bastard.
B). Have a way to survive his massive amount of answers for your presence.
C). Have a way to penetrate all his myriad defenses (including things like Prismatic Sphere, Greater Mirror Image, whatever).
D). Finally, IF you hurt him and he runs, have a way to track him and follow, within one round ideally.

Note that this all is practically impossible without being a caster of some flavor. I cannot think of how to do it with melee's. Even ToB can't do all of this.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 01:49 PM
ZeroNumerous: Yes, I'm quite aware of what a wizard is capable of. However:


Fine; then what would you need to be capable of doing, again besides being a caster, to do so?

You ignored the relevant part.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 01:50 PM
Don't forget:

E) Have a way to survive his inevitable retribution if you fail.
F) Have a way to revive yourself if you fail to survive his retribution and he doesn't Trap the Soul your Soul.
G) Have a back-up character if all else fails.

Gralamin
2009-05-19, 02:08 PM
This is exactly the sort of useless answer that I'm trying to avoid. :smallannoyed:

Its really for different reasons then you think, its so he can fill his list full of Dispel magic and variations. Have him grab Improved Counterspell, and have him focus all of his actions on readying to counterspell. Give him all the cheesy items to boost CL as you can, since Dispel magic requires a CL check.

Now assuming your cohort succeeds, you can stop his Celerity, you can stop his teleport, and you can stop similar abilities as long as he is actually casting them. In the mean time, you have to find some way to ignore his contingencies (Reaving Dispel so you now have his contingencies?) since those cannot be counterspelled. Note though you can only stop one spell a round, per caster you have to counterspell.

Ideally you'd actually be a Thrallherd, both of your thralls would be casters, and then barring Belt of Battle cheese, the Wizard has a chance to have his quickened and non-quickened spell counterspelled, Letting you get close enough with your obscure contingency ignoring powers to start hitting him with spells.

Adumbration
2009-05-19, 02:14 PM
I've found that the best way to a wizard is through his spells. Literally. Spam Area Dispel on the area that you think he is, or better yet, summon Avorals to do that AND use True Seeing for you. Though the dispel checks aren't much to write home about, I've once brought down almost all of a wizard's buffs with some lucky throws, and I was a binder, with Zcaryll.

KaganMonk
2009-05-19, 02:19 PM
Sadly, I think you have gotten your answer hidden in the numerous silly ones. There is:
A: No way to surprise the wizard who knows what's coming
B: Very little chance of catching the knowledgeable wizard without his complete compliment of spells.
C: No chance of getting near the wizard without him fleeing as a last resort
D: Very little chance of hitting the wizard through his defenses, much less knocking him out.

Ever scenario you can come up with between melee and magic still comes down to the limited ability of the physical (even enhanced) to bypass the purely magical defenses without magical help in some form or fashion. This is what everyone is trying to tell you without shutting you down harshly and hijacking the thread.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 02:19 PM
Its really for different reasons then you think, its so he can fill his list full of Dispel magic and variations. Have him grab Improved Counterspell, and have him focus all of his actions on readying to counterspell. Give him all the cheesy items to boost CL as you can, since Dispel magic requires a CL check.

Still using a caster. Rules are against it.


Now assuming your cohort succeeds, you can stop his Celerity

Can you stop a first-round immediate action via counterspell if you have no time to ready one?

Of course, this does give me an idea...


Sadly, I think you have gotten your answer hidden in the numerous silly ones. There is:
A: No way to surprise the wizard who knows what's coming
B: Very little chance of catching the knowledgeable wizard without his complete compliment of spells.
C: No chance of getting near the wizard without him fleeing as a last resort
D: Very little chance of hitting the wizard through his defenses, much less knocking him out.

Ever scenario you can come up with between melee and magic still comes down to the limited ability of the physical (even enhanced) to bypass the purely magical defenses without magical help in some form or fashion. This is what everyone is trying to tell you without shutting you down harshly and hijacking the thread.

Yes, but it is fundamentally not what I am asking. I am asking, given the above, what would you need to be able to do, aside from being a spellcaster yourself, to defeat him?

For example, wizards have contingency, and probably Craft Contingent Spell. So you need to be able to bypass those contingencies.

This is what I am looking for.

arguskos
2009-05-19, 02:19 PM
So, let's combine our lists and see what we can do.

A). FIND the bastard.
B). Have a way to survive his massive amount of answers for your presence.
C). Have a way to penetrate all his myriad defenses (including things like Prismatic Sphere, Greater Mirror Image, whatever).
D). Finally, IF you hurt him and he runs, have a way to track him and follow, within one round ideally.
E) Have a way to survive his inevitable retribution if you fail.
F) Have a way to revive yourself if you fail to survive his retribution and he doesn't Trap the Soul your Soul.
G) Have a back-up character if all else fails.

Alright, that's the gameplan. Here's my thoughts on how to do this, sans any casting of our own.

A). Pay someone to cast Scrying on him... wait, he has a Mind Blank. Ok. Pay scouts to go find where he lives and do it the hard way (ie. go find him with people). Not too tough.
B). This... is hard. I'm assuming a teleportation effect to get the drop on him, but of course he has a Celerity. Sure. That's cool. Time Stop-->massive amounts of D.B.Fireballs and Cloudkills+Solid Fogs. So, get something that makes you immune to energy damage (just to be safe) and a way to be immune to Con damage. Surely, there's a way to do that. Maybe... template stacking or being undead? So far, we're hitting issues, but they're probably beatable.
C). Ok. This is tough. Having True Seeing helps. Mage Slayer+Pierce Magical Concealment is a good plan too. Get a way to UMD a Disjunction spell. Use Anti-Magic Fields+grappling. You might be able to make this one work, but it's sticky.
D). Uh... right then. So, you have negated all his defenses and on his turn, he flees. So, what then? If you manage to disjoin his Mind Blank, Scry him and UMD a teleport or plane shift to chase. If you didn't... well, he got away. Go back to A) and continue doing this till you can disjoin that Mind Blank.
E). If you failed to kill him on the first try, never sleep or let down your guard again. Because he'll be coming back, after binding some scary critters to negate all your defenses. At this point, either kill yourself before he arrives, or hire some casters to defend yourself.
F). I think there's a way to obliterate your own soul if you die, but I don't know it.
G). Well, there's always the reroll. :smallannoyed:

My conclusions: UMD is your friend and you need to hire casters to reach him anyways. Not sure how a team of melee could get anywhere within range if he's even vaguely awake. Using lots of items/abilities that duplicate spells are good ideas. Psionics, Incarnum, Shadowcasters, Binders, all might be worth looking into and considering for their usefulness. Of course, this violates the spirit of the thing, so let's cut the following classes:

Warlock, Psionics, Incarnum, ToM stuff, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Archivist, Artificer, Dragonfire Adept, Beguiler, Duskblade.

There you are afro, my thoughts on what you need to be able to accomplish to beat a single Wizard 20. Is this what you are looking for, or did you want detailed descriptions of characters?

mangosta71
2009-05-19, 02:20 PM
Seems to me that a group of monks with AMF could work. Dimension step on top of the wizard and switch it on (or vice versa). All three saves being high gives them a much better chance of surviving, as many of the "save or die" spells do nothing (or practically nothing) on a successful save. Spells that deal massive damage are usually reflex saves, so even if they somehow fail they still only takes half damage. You could even give the AMF ring to just one in the group and make the rest of them VoP monks so even inside the field they have crazy stats and lots of stuns.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 02:21 PM
Fine; then what would you need to be capable of doing, again besides being a caster, to do so?You're missing the point. A pair of Wizards dueling ends up with both of them expending a lot of resources and vanishing to their respective demiplanes to recharge. A high-level Wizard, prepared for personal defense, is nearly impossible to defeat(I'd say impossible, but there's always Pun-Pun), even for another caster(without epic spellcasting). As limited as you have made it, another caster has a shot, but that's it. If we're talking on the Wizard's home turf, even a team of casters has no shot, due to how cheap spell traps are.

Without Contingency, all(yes, all) you need to do is hit him in the surprise round, win initiative, and stop him from taking any immediate actions to cast. Then you need to penetrate his illusions, his Abjurations, and his new shapes defenses(free action). And then disable him in some way, shape, or form that prevents spellcasting. All without triggering any of his personal defenses. Have fun.

The_Werebear
2009-05-19, 02:22 PM
I think the solution lies in draining him of as many resources as possible before you have to fight him. What I am about to propose is the rather Evil way to do this, and assumes that he is relatively good aligned.

Go with the super Leadership thing mentioned earlier in the thread. Hire on as many more as you have the money to do after gearing up. Spread your army across his area of influence, and have them launch simultaneous events on everything he knows and loves. You have to hit his family, his friends, government officals, major structures (dams would be fun), burn towns, and other things that require his attention right then. Before launching the attack, figure out what his priorities are, probably through extreme divination from a hired caster. Send the main assassination squad with the anti-mage gear to the last location he will be likely to be able to reach. Now, he will know you are coming specifically to kill him, but it was never mentioned the gods would inform him of exactly where or how you would go about this.

When you launch the attacks, the mage will begin to combat the assaults you sent out. Make sure they are spread out enough to require teleportation. Wait at what you know will be the last fire he'll attempt to put out, and ambush him there when he is low on spells. If you dress like your hired mooks and wear items to shield your thoughts, he hopefully will not suspect anything is different about this encounter until someone grapples him with a ring of anti-magic on.

This plan's assumptions, again, are that the mage is good aligned, and the locals have become dependent enough on him saving the day that no other significant challenge will be able to combat any of the problems. It also assumes that you know what his priorities and contingencies are, so that you can trigger them in the earlier encounters and battle him when he is weaker.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 02:27 PM
You're missing the point. A pair of Wizards dueling ends up with both of them expending a lot of resources and vanishing to their respective demiplanes to recharge.

I assure you that I am not. The respondents, on the other hand, seem to be.


Without Contingency, all(yes, all) you need to do is hit him in the surprise round, win initiative, and stop him from taking any immediate actions to cast. Then you need to penetrate his illusions, his Abjurations, and his new shapes defenses(free action). And then disable him in some way, shape, or form that prevents spellcasting. All without triggering any of his personal defenses. Have fun.

Exactly. So let's break this down.

You need:

• Some ability to bypass contingencies
• To go first
• To get through his defenses
• To deal with shapechange
• To stop him from getting out when all that has been accomplished.

Dimensional anchor has that last one covered.

But this is the kind of breakdown I am looking for. Not "it's impossible because" because hey, I know all of it. It's irrelevant if the powers and abilities needed exist or not; what I'm asking is for a straightforward look at what would be needed to actually engage in a fight with a wizard and have a shot at winning.

Gralamin
2009-05-19, 02:28 PM
Still using a caster. Rules are against it.



Can you stop a first-round immediate action via counterspell if you have no time to ready one?

Of course, this does give me an idea...

Surprise round Ready action: Counterspell. Or before the combat begins ready an action to counterspell.

Anyway you look at it, your going to need either a) an army, or b) more casters to do it.

It might be possible to use Binders to replicate the Casters for Counterspelling, but they aren't going to be nearly as good as an actual caster will be in all likelihood.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 02:31 PM
Can you stop a first-round immediate action via counterspell if you have no time to ready one?

Teleport in with a readied action. 'Course, teleporting in means you trigger his Anticipate Teleport and he gets away anyway.

Problem is: Counterspelling is a CL check. But not only that, but a CL check against a weighted 11+Counterspell's CL. Further, if you're boosting your CL through the roof then the wizard would be using the same methods and you end up losing anyway.

EDIT:


It's irrelevant if the powers and abilities needed exist or not; what I'm asking is for a straightforward look at what would be needed to actually engage in a fight with a wizard and have a shot at winning.

Point 1: It's very relevant, because if they don't exist then it's just DM Fiat. At that point why not simply hand the challenger a Ring of I Win: 1/day you win. Same effective result in this hypothetical wizard challenge.

Point 2: We told you. Another wizard.

Gralamin
2009-05-19, 02:35 PM
Teleport in with a readied action. 'Course, teleporting in means you trigger his Anticipate Teleport and he gets away anyway.

Problem is: Counterspelling is a CL check. But not only that, but a CL check against a weighted 11+Counterspell's CL. Further, if you're boosting your CL through the roof then the wizard would be using the same methods and you end up losing anyway.

Well, if you had someway of knowing their spell list you could counterspell by using the exact same spell, which has a 100% chance of working.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 02:37 PM
I assure you that I am not. The respondents, on the other hand, seem to be.



Exactly. So let's break this down.

You need:

• Some ability to bypass contingencies
• To go first
• To get through his defenses
• To deal with shapechange
• To stop him from getting out when all that has been accomplished.

Dimensional anchor has that last one covered.

But this is the kind of breakdown I am looking for. Not "it's impossible because" because hey, I know all of it. It's irrelevant if the powers and abilities needed exist or not; what I'm asking is for a straightforward look at what would be needed to actually engage in a fight with a wizard and have a shot at winning.But none of those can take an action(even swift). Remember, Wizards at high levels break the action economy of combat through Quickened spells, Celerity, Contingency, Twin Spell, and Dire Tortise et al. The instant he gets an action, he wins, so unless you can guarantee he won't get an action after you take the standard, it's not worth it.

Also, the best Dimensional Anchor is death.

The_Werebear
2009-05-19, 02:37 PM
You need:

• Some ability to bypass contingencies
• To go first
• To get through his defenses
• To deal with shapechange
• To stop him from getting out when all that has been accomplished.

Dimensional anchor has that last one covered.


1) Trigger them earlier via pressing him hard that day. Figure out what they are through a hired diviner and send in mook squads with the triggers for them. This does require some spellcaster on your staff, but he will never be one of the attackers, so I think it is allowable.

2) Magic item of Celerity at will + Immune to Daze item.

3) An Arrow enchanted with Anti-Magic Field would work, actually. Since it is a 10 foot radius, all of his buffs would go down as the arrow approached, before it actually hit him. Covering the arrowhead with whatever goes into tanglefoot bags will help prevent him from ripping it out and throwing it away. A level 20 wizard will probably have about 14-18 dex naturally (remember, his magic items turn off when the arrow approaches), so he will need to beat probably a 6-9. Three tanglefoot bags stands good odds of sticking the arrow to him.

4) See number Three.

5) See number Three, he can't teleport out of an Anti-Magic field.

You might need to have him charged repeatedly, so you will need a way to approach him over and over again. This ends up being a spam tactic, but that's ok.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 02:37 PM
Well, if you had someway of knowing their spell list you could counterspell by using the exact same spell, which has a 100% chance of working.

True, but if you knew that then you'd be able to have a Wizard use Craft Contingency to craft contingent counterspells against those exact spells and win that way with just a Commoner 20. :smalltongue:

EDIT:


1) Trigger them earlier via pressing him hard that day. Figure out what they are through a hired diviner and send in mook squads with the triggers for them. This does require some spellcaster on your staff, but he will never be one of the attackers, so I think it is allowable.

The wizard pops back to his Mordenkainen's Magnificient Manshion as soon as mooks appear because mooks are no threat. Alternatively, he never left his MMM because he doesn't need to.


2) Magic item of Celerity at will + Immune to Daze item.

Ring of Couterspelling: Celerity. What wizard doesn't own one for a wizard duel?


3) Stuff about an arrow

Foresight + Celerity + Immunity to Daze. Time Stop + Wall of Force. You've already lost.

Gralamin
2009-05-19, 02:42 PM
True, but if you knew that then you'd be able to have a Wizard use Craft Contingency to craft contingent counterspells against those exact spells and win that way with just a Commoner 20. :smalltongue:

I don't believe you can use Craft Contingent Spell to counterspell, though I haven't read it over in a while.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 02:43 PM
But none of those can take an action(even swift). Remember, Wizards at high levels break the action economy of combat through Quickened spells, Celerity, Contingency, Twin Spell, and Dire Tortise et al. The instant he gets an action, he wins, so unless you can guarantee he won't get an action after you take the standard, it's not worth it.

Logical answer in parentheses:

• Quickened spells (Negate the value of casting these spells)
• Celerity (Compete with the wizard for this effect)
• Contingency (Bypass them)
• Twin Spell (Take extra actions yourself, or negate the value of casting the spells)
• Dire Tortoise (I got nothin' on this one. These are admittedly phrased as being faster than time itself. Clearly someone was not educated as to what being a tortoise implies. :smalltongue:)


Also, the best Dimensional Anchor is death.

So very true. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2009-05-19, 02:45 PM
The following is written more as a general overview from someone who only has a vague idea of what high level magic can actually do:

I would actually first look to make a character that is unkillable. Wasn't there a thread on the budget tarrasque? Some of the things built there would probably be legal for this challenge. Still, being a creature with as many immunities as possible helps. Energy damage, force damage, ability damage and drain, level drain, death effects and possibly a dozen others are necessary.

Now, if you do this right, most of the spells the wizard can use to inconvenience or kill you should fail. If you can somehow make this inherent with creature types and templates, you can even still have an antimagic field up.

Next, you need a way to find the wizard. If I remember correctly, the challenge states that he will be in his tower, which helps here. Otherwise, he'd just hide in a genesis'd demiplane which no one except him can enter, ever.

After finding him, we have to stop him from leaving. Dimensional Anchor is a part here, I'm sure there are others.

Now, we have to stop the wizard from actually dispelling or disjunctioning the stuff we use against him. No idea if that is possible at all.

The hard part, as noted, is getting to react at all. Now, since we have four party members, I think it could be possible to sacrifice one or two to trigger his contingencies and time stops before the others come in. Could help, could not help.

Next would be negating his defences. If we can keep it up, get him in the antimagic field and try to keep him there. A grapple build as one party member could help if it can actually ever get it's hands on the wizard.

The_Werebear
2009-05-19, 03:00 PM
1)The wizard pops back to his Mordenkainen's Magnificient Manshion as soon as mooks appear because mooks are no threat. Alternatively, he never left his MMM because he doesn't need to.



2)Ring of Couterspelling: Celerity. What wizard doesn't own one for a wizard duel?



3)Foresight + Celerity + Immunity to Daze. Time Stop + Wall of Force. You've already lost.

1) Fine- Send the mooks to kill his family. He'll show for that

2) All that would do technically is counter the spell if it was cast on the Wizard. Unless I am looking at the wrong item.

3) Ok, there's a wall of Force in the way of an Anti-Magic field Generating arrow. The Wall of Force fails in it's path and resumes after it is gone. Arrow sticks in wizard. And there are five of you. As 20th level probably near full BaB characters, you can put 20 in the air at once.

Flickerdart
2009-05-19, 03:08 PM
Antimagic Field's description specifies that it cannot disrupt Wall of Force. But you could always have someone Dispel or Disintegrate (from a scroll) it first.

The_Werebear
2009-05-19, 03:11 PM
Antimagic Field's description specifies that it cannot disrupt Wall of Force. But you could always have someone Dispel or Disintegrate (from a scroll) it first.

Really? Damn. Ok, I'll rely on the arrows being shot from 5 different directions. Worst comes to worst, you make the wizard waste his forcecage on protecting himself.

Mattarias, King.
2009-05-19, 03:31 PM
Uhm, get someone to turn you into something crazy, grapple him, get a ring of antimagic glued on to the bugger, then throw him into the Tomb of Horrors? :smallamused:

Telonius
2009-05-19, 04:04 PM
If the final victory plan involves any kind of command word item, the command word must be "007 373 5963." :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-05-19, 04:04 PM
I guess my question would be, can a spell triggered by a contingeny be countered? If yes, I could beat the wizard. If not, then I probably couldn't. I'm inclined to believe it can, since according to the text:

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur.
Its their quotes, not mine. So, the companion spells is being "cast" instantaneously.

So, now we need to figure out how to counter ~24 contingencies as a worst case scenario, since it would be possible to have "If I would be affected by anything negative or subject to an AMF, teleport me home" type thing active. (1 spell + 23 crafted contingencies, assuming Ring of Arcane Mastery, Orange IWIN Stone, and Archmage Spell Power).

So, lets look at a tricked out cleric. Battlemagic Perception + 2x Rings of Greater Counterspelling + Divine Defiance is 4 counterspells. That would mean you would need ~6 level 20 clerics packin heat. Thats a bit much, so lets craft some contingent spells ourselves. Trigger with

A If I say "password" for the next hour, if BMP is not active, cast BMP.
B If BMP is not active and contingency A has been used, cast BMP
C If BMP is not active and contingency B has been used, cast BMP

and so on. Each would require a counterspell memorized, so this would limit you a little. A cleric20 would have 16 base spells from level 6 to level 9, not including domain spells. With bonus for high wisdom, this goes up to about 23...So, 23 GDMs and 21 BMPs (1 + 20 from contingencies) and 2 Rings of Greater Counterspelling knocks off 25 spells. Divine Defiance gets the 26th if needed.

Now...a build. Only relavant parts would probably be Cleric3/ChurchInquisitor2/DivineOracle10/Contemplative1/SE4. DO is important, because at DO10, you have a permanent Forsight, essentially. SE gives you a permanent consecration field for DSP. Domains would be Good + Luck base, picking up Inquisition, Oracle, and Trickery. Good gives you a needed CL bump, Luck gives you Moment of Prescience and a reroll (for init), and Trickery would give you Time Stop.

Also, take...Arcane Mastery? that lets you take 10 on CL checks.
Your dispels are now at 10 + 20 +4=34 vs 34=11+23, meaning you autocounter with GDM.

Gear includes anything that'll increase your Init. Belt of Battle, Eager Warning weapon, +dex item, etc. Feats include Improved Init and Blooded (FR Regional feat for +2 init). Also, a Bead of Karma and an Orange IWIN Stone for gear.

Prep: Take Leadership. Your cohort should be something like a Marshall1/Sorcerer8/Loremaster5/DreadCommando5/Crusader1 or something. Max his UMD and give him a scroll of MDJ. Marshall Aura is Motivate Dex to give 5+cha bonus to nearby allies init. Also knows Nerveskitter to cast on cleric.

Cast all prep spells and craft all contingencies before.
Cast Signs (Cl1)
Cast Surge of Fortune (Cl5)
Cast Moment of Presceience (Luck8)
Cast Battlemagic Perception
Pop Bead of Karma

When you start the battle, you'll get to act in the surprise round. Plane Shift in from the Astral Plane, where you triangulated his position via Communing. You pop Surge of Fortune to auto-20 init, discharge MoP for +15, Signs and Nerveskitter give +9, Cohort give ~+15 (30 cha +5 from DC), Belt + weapon give another +6, and Imp Init and Blooded give +6. That means your Init is ~71, give or take. Chances are, unless the wizard has some serious paranoia going on, he won't be able to match that. So, you win the surprise round, and your cohort casts Celerity and reads the scroll of MDJ. MDJ will strip off all of the wizards buffs, including any crafted contingencies. Thus, MDJ should trigger all or most of the contingencies. Assuming the wizard had Forsight up, he could also cast Celerity himself, which you should have enough counters to handle. Once the wizard is tapped out, the MDJ goes off and cripples him. Then you take your turn, trigger DSP to cast Holy Word at CL 20 + 1 for Orange IWIN Stone + 4 Beads of Karma, +4 DSP, +1 for Good domain = CL30. Since the wizard has 20 HD, he dies, no save, assuming he isn't good aligned, which can be determined via Communing.

Do I win? Cleric beats Wizard!

Oh, and if thats a bit much, assuming a party, you could have 2-3 of these beastly clerics working in conjunction to REALLY lock down a ton of contingent spells.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 06:02 PM
Of course, clerics is breaking the rules. :smallredface:

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 07:21 PM
I wouldn't worry overmuch about using antimagic fields. They won't work, and not because of things like orb of X.

All Mr. Wizard has to do is wear a shrink item'd cone made of iron or wood or something as a hat (preferably as shrink item's cloth function), and a similar flat item on the bottom of one of his shoes.

Any time he is subjected to an antimagic field or similar effect, it suppresses the shrink item effect, allowing him to dimension door or teleport out after a couple of Delayed surprises he leaves for you when you try to hew through the hat...

Antimagic field really isn't that good of an idea; it just gives him forewarning, if you manage to sneak up on him.

lesser_minion
2009-05-19, 07:48 PM
Of course, clerics is breaking the rules. :smallredface:

A problem with this challenge is that defensive spells exist which explicitly require specific combinations of spells to defeat. Prismatic sphere, for example. No AMF, no getting to the wizard without spells.

UMD could work, but strictly speaking the DM should ask the PCs for Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana checks (or assume metagaming), which already imply casters.

I'm pretty sure there are better examples, but you would need a party with the capability to defeat those kinds of effects.

Enochi
2009-05-19, 07:52 PM
....looking at this thread I now feel so much more justified in banning/nerfing the hell out of spell casters in my campaigns.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 08:05 PM
A problem with this challenge is that defensive spells that exist and which explicitly require specific combinations of spells to defeat. Prismatic sphere, for example. No AMF, no getting to the wizard without spells.

Okay, so what one needs is the ability to bypass such defenses without the required spells. Simple.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 08:19 PM
Really? Damn. Ok, I'll rely on the arrows being shot from 5 different directions. Worst comes to worst, you make the wizard waste his forcecage on protecting himself.

Resilient Sphere. Same effect as a Wall of Force but 3 levels lower than Forcecage. Simply move it up when he's done since it's not like he's using his move action anyway.


1) Fine- Send the mooks to kill his family. He'll show for that

Ah, that assumes that A) He cares, B) He has any and C) They're not in the MMM with him.


2) All that would do technically is counter the spell if it was cast on the Wizard. Unless I am looking at the wrong item.

Woops. Oh well. Then a Rod-Extended Gated Solar with a readied action to cast Wish as an SLA to replicate Celerity and counterspell any Celerity cast by anyone but the Wizard.


Okay, so what one needs is the ability to bypass such defenses without the required spells. Simple.

Basically DM Fiat, ya.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 08:21 PM
Basically DM Fiat, ya.

Or homebrew.

Again, I'm not asking what currently exists that will let people win. I'm asking what would need to be available to make this scenario approachable.

arguskos
2009-05-19, 08:25 PM
Or homebrew.

Again, I'm not asking what currently exists that will let people win. I'm asking what would need to be available to make this scenario approachable.
So, you wish martial abilities to be homebrewed here to figure out every weakness of the god wizard.

1. Give martial characters a way to (as an Ex ability) scry on/locate and teleport to individuals and locations. This solves mobility limitations.
2. Martials need a way to punch through permanent and instant magical effects/defenses. Look at the artifact Angelwing Razor in the BoVD for an example. This solves the "haha you can't touch me" issue.
3. The most vital one of all: martial characters need a way to get more out of their actions, to act before other characters can, and to generally just do what wizards can. Think Celerity. Honestly, ToB helps a ton here. This solves the action economy deficit that martials suffer from.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 08:25 PM
Or homebrew.

Again, I'm not asking what currently exists that will let people win. I'm asking what would need to be available to make this scenario approachable.

It's still DM Fiat to allow it. And again, it's what's needed to make the scenario approachable.

One of the following things must be true for Wizard to lose:
1) He has out of/denied spells. Simple, he's just a commoner 20 now.
2) The DM wants the wizard to lose. Simple, he loses.
3) There's another caster to face him. Complex, a caster battle ensues and anyone who isn't a caster is more or less left to the wayside.
4) The wizard is just plain stupid. Simple, fill his spellbook with nothing but evocation and give him no metamagic. He'll eventually die.

arguskos
2009-05-19, 08:28 PM
It's still DM Fiat to allow it. And again, it's what's needed to make the scenario approachable.

One of the following things must be true for Wizard to lose:
1) He has out of/denied spells. Simple, he's just a commoner 20 now.
2) The DM wants the wizard to lose. Simple, he loses.
3) There's another caster to face him. Complex, a caster battle ensues and anyone who isn't a caster is more or less left to the wayside.
4) The wizard is just plain stupid. Simple, fill his spellbook with nothing but evocation and give him no metamagic. He'll eventually die.
I know what afro wants. He wants us to postulate along the lines of homebrewing, so that he has a direction to work in. At least, that's what always happens when these threads pop up. Your solutions assume 3.5 unmodified. He's coming at this from a "how do I fix it?" standpoint.

Is that about right afro?

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 08:34 PM
I know what afro wants. He wants us to postulate along the lines of homebrewing, so that he has a direction to work in. At least, that's what always happens when these threads pop up. Your solutions assume 3.5 unmodified. He's coming at this from a "how do I fix it?" standpoint.

Is that about right afro?

*eyes flash secretively*

Indeed.


One of the following things must be true for Wizard to lose:
1) He has out of/denied spells. Simple, he's just a commoner 20 now.
2) The DM wants the wizard to lose. Simple, he loses.
3) There's another caster to face him. Complex, a caster battle ensues and anyone who isn't a caster is more or less left to the wayside.
4) The wizard is just plain stupid. Simple, fill his spellbook with nothing but evocation and give him no metamagic. He'll eventually die.

This is why I disagree with you calling "DM Fiat." Note the one in bold.

Offering options to rebalance the game is far different from fiating the wizard dead.

arguskos
2009-05-19, 08:39 PM
I assume that each time I offer suggestions, they are being considered, not just ignored, right? :smalltongue:

Also, glad I pegged this one. Though it didn't take a genius.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 08:49 PM
Of course. :smallwink:

Enochi
2009-05-19, 08:57 PM
My suggestion is 1. An Item that misleads or reverse the wizards srying attempts. 2. An Item the prevents holes in the plane being opened up. Effectively no teleporting or summoning. The pcs have to deal with what is already there though. 3. A spell theif should help to limit what the wizard can do.

The whole problem is just getting to the wizard. 1 blow will drop him. ToB being out really hurts cause the Eturnal Blade's Island in Time ability would allow him to act first.

Why is ToB out anyway? Its a partial solution to these ****ing, imba, op, ****ting spellcasters anyway.

Man this really gets me riled up.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:03 PM
My suggestion is 1. An Item that misleads or reverse the wizards srying attempts.

Isn't there some sort of amulet that does this?


2. An Item the prevents holes in the plane being opened up. Effectively no teleporting or summoning. The pcs have to deal with what is already there though.

The campaign setting has two planes and no gods that care about you. No planar ally, planar binding, contact other plane or genesis. Gate still exists, but what comes through can't be controlled, and using it for travel or summoning outside the twin planes is next to impossible.


The whole problem is just getting to the wizard. 1 blow will drop him. ToB being out really hurts cause the Eturnal Blade's Island in Time ability would allow him to act first.

Why is ToB out anyway? Its a partial solution to these ****ing, imba, op, ****ting spellcasters anyway.

Man this really gets me riled up.

Well, I'm working on things for the base game only. Clearly, ToB has a move for it. Currently, rangers can get around contingency and time stop, but it would be nice, figuratively speaking, if Roy had a shot against Xykon.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 09:06 PM
Wizard need's spell book right? So have one group occupy the wizard while another group breaks into his tower/study/whatever and burns his books. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, it requires lots of suicide charactors, but whatever.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-19, 09:07 PM
Offering options to rebalance the game is far different from fiating the wizard dead.

You may as well just throw out the existing wizard/cleric/druid classes then for it'll become significantly easier to work with once they're gone. Add to the pile Craft Contingent Spell/Divine Metamagic and you shouldn't have too much trouble. Cutting things is the only valid solution as adding extra things doesn't take away from either of the Big Three's inherent win buttons.


My suggestion is 1. An Item that misleads or reverse the wizards srying attempts. 2. An Item the prevents holes in the plane being opened up. Effectively no teleporting or summoning. The pcs have to deal with what is already there though. 3. A spell theif should help to limit what the wizard can do.

1: Mind Blank technically defeats all scrying attempts.
2: Dimensional Anchor + Circle of Protection [Whatever] is the only thing I can think of coming close to replicating that.
3: That requires the spellthief to hit the wizard.


1 blow will drop him. ToB being out really hurts cause the Eternal Blade's Island in Time ability would allow him to act first.

Shapechange: Dire Tortoise sort of defeats Island in Time since it gives the wizard a surprise round and doesn't care what else anyone else has in terms of abilities.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:13 PM
You may as well just throw out the existing wizard/cleric/druid classes then for it'll become significantly easier to work with once they're gone.

The existing wizard class isn't all that complex. Ditto the cleric.

Discarding classes does not work in any event. I can only add, not subtract. Special exemptions were granted for the spells, as it ties in to the campaign setting.


Add to the pile Craft Contingent Spell/Divine Metamagic and you shouldn't have too much trouble. Cutting things is the only valid solution as adding extra things doesn't take away from either of the Big Three's inherent win buttons.

To be fair, those are not core. It's not my job to fiat them on or off, nor in fact can I. That said, I can totally add stuff that negates their value. A spell that hides you and everything you do from contingency, for example.


Shapechange: Dire Tortoise sort of defeats Island in Time since it gives the wizard a surprise round and doesn't care what else anyone else has in terms of abilities.

Sandstorm is such a bad book; :smallannoyed:. The Dire Tortoise makes no bloody sense. How does it know that you've made the snap decision to kill it? What if it can't see you and you're firing a spell at it from 1200 ft. away?

Splat foolishness. :smallsigh:

Enochi
2009-05-19, 09:17 PM
You may as well just throw out the existing wizard/cleric/druid classes then for it'll become significantly easier to work with once they're gone. Add to the pile Craft Contingent Spell/Divine Metamagic and you shouldn't have too much trouble. Cutting things is the only valid solution as adding extra things doesn't take away from either of the Big Three's inherent win buttons.



1: Mind Blank technically defeats all scrying attempts.
2: Dimensional Anchor + Circle of Protection [Whatever] is the only thing I can think of coming close to replicating that.
3: That requires the spellthief to hit the wizard.



Shapechange: Dire Tortoise sort of defeats Island in Time since it gives the wizard a surprise round and doesn't care what else anyone else has in terms of abilities.

Umm not according to the way I understand it Island of Time let you take your turn whenever. Given that surprise round is still a round he could go before the wizard.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 09:18 PM
There really is no way to beat a wizard without Rule 0-ing it and having the wizard make some glaring errors (in complete opposition to his Int score).

Cut The Big Five, and rule that only Tiers 2-4 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) are available.

Core is the absolute worst book available regarding balance. Vancian casting (especially wizards) absolutely destroys everything else from mid-levels on up, and you'd have to redesign the entire system from the ground up to fix it.

You'd be better off simply writing core off as being unfixable, and stick with psionics, the factotum and rogue, the wildshaping druid/ranger, and ToB, instead.

Though I would suggest replacing wizards and clerics with adepts (not martial adepts; the NPC class) and turning 99% of all the full-casting PrCs into partial-casting PrCs instead, if you still want some core casting hanging around.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:21 PM
There really is no way to beat a wizard without Rule 0-ing it and having the wizard make some glaring errors (in complete opposition to his Int score).

Clearly, there is. You take all of the steps that you would need to overcome, and then you set about overcoming them.


You'd be better off simply writing core off as being unfixable, and stick with psionics, the factotum and rogue, the wildshaping druid/ranger, and ToB, instead.

No can do. Campaign setting, not game redesign.


turning 99% of all the full-casting PrCs into partial-casting PrCs instead, if you still want some core casting hanging around.

See, that should have been the case anyway. Caster PrCs leave literally no reason to remain in the class in question.

Eldariel
2009-05-19, 09:32 PM
See, that should have been the case anyway. Caster PrCs leave literally no reason to remain in the class in question.

I think that's more weakness in the class's own design rather than the PrCs. The fact that Sorcerer has no "on-the-fly-spell-manipulation" abilities and that Cleric has two domains at start and two domains on 20 (and doesn't get bonus divine feats or any such) and that Wizard doesn't learn to switch up their spells slots more efficiently and to play up their versatility and spells known more is just a result of poor class design.

Not giving them (outside Wizard and their every-5-levels feats...) any class features after level 1 beyond their spellcasting is just inexcusable (no, I'm not counting familiar improvement or turning here... Let's just say you generally need 1 level of either to get what you want; the improvements are rather pointless mostly).


But this is not the point of the thread - please forgive me for the aside. I just happen to be strongly opinionated on this matter, which I felt a compulsive need to bring out.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:36 PM
But this is not the point of the thread - please forgive me for the aside. I just happen to be strongly opinionated on this matter, which I felt a compulsive need to bring out.

Not at all. I happen to agree. I wasn't allowed making changes to classes, though, so I'm doing it a different way. :smallwink:

Although I completely agree on Cleric and Sorcerer, this puzzles me:


and that Wizard doesn't learn to switch up their spells slots more efficiently and to play up their versatility and spells known more

??? How so?

Eldariel
2009-05-19, 09:42 PM
??? How so?

The Wizard-class doesn't play up that feature, which is the "thing" of the class. Basically, I think a higher level Wizard should gain class features that enable a bit larger amount of spontaneity with switching up spell slots (or filling empties) midday or so, as the whole "leave slots open"-stuff is pretty unique to them; to me it only makes sense that they grow better at using those as they level up.

This is mostly a distinction to Sorcerer who begins to understand magic more and thus is able to manipulate spells on a more fundamental level, while the Wizard who just memorizes, memorizes and memorizes spells learns to switch out some of his spells more easily than normal, gain a degree of spontaneity or such.


To me it feels like a logical evolution of a Wizard's base abilities and the idea of what being "a Wizard" means.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:45 PM
Reasonable. Of course, I'm currently out to drop hammers on wizards, but interesting idea anyway.

Enochi
2009-05-19, 09:50 PM
Is Dragon magic legal?

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 09:51 PM
I would say no.

Enochi
2009-05-19, 10:04 PM
Damn Dragonfire adept could do it if he sees the wizard. Any of his breaths should KO him in one hit and with baleful geas he could easily gather up and army to run him down.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:32 PM
Yeah, but again: not the point.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 10:35 PM
EAsy answer that can be done with 4 characters without even one stitch of clothing, now I don't play 4e, so if this thread only affects 4e, to bad I prefer 3e. The answer is, now I know many peope will think this strange, but four monks, and I'm not just saying this because I am currently a monk in the campaign I am playing. Its very simple, at Lv 20 all monks will have 12 in all there saves, giving them the best chance of avoiding/reducing spell effects from the wizard then just use stunning fist, a Lv 1 attack, or is it lv 2, anyays, with the wizards low save, it will likely stun him. Also get magic resistance of 15+level, or is it 10+level, either way pretty good, and if he summons things, tumble past them, only 15 required on check to go between its legs, plus can heal self and switch to etheral. In this way, you can literaly PUNCH out the Wizard, was that a clue in the title?

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 10:36 PM
Offer him a pleasant invitation to tea, and apologize for any misunderstandings that may have popped up. Don't try to attack him; don't be threatening at all. Offer him hospitality and genuine, nonjudgemental companionship.

Then get a Diplomancer to talk to him. Turn him into a fanatic follower.

He'll be yours forever.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:38 PM
Diplomancer was specifically prohibited.

And again, not the point.

Y'nokhs
2009-05-19, 10:42 PM
If only there were some class designed to fight spellcasters...

Can anyone spell thief?

Improved saves vs. spells, and with some booster items he could be throwing those Meteor Swarms right back at mr. wizard. And that's before he starts draining 4 spell slots per sneak attack.

A warlock would also be helpful, and the spellthief could siphon off all those "self-only" buffs. Retributive Invisibility+Voracious Dispelling+Dark Discorperation (Yay automatic damage, immunity to target spells, and forcing Concentration checks!)+Quickened Utterdark Blast or 3=Win

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:47 PM
If only there were some class designed to fight spellcasters...

Can anyone spell thief?

Still missing the point entirely. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the wizard would still win.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 10:50 PM
Considering that a level 20 wizard could take out most of the epic level monstrosities in the Epic Level Handbook by his lonesome...

...I don't think you're quite going to get the answers you're looking for.

Trizap
2009-05-19, 10:51 PM
use my wealth to hire two lvl 20 wizard npcs to kill the lvl 20 wizard.

that is right everyone: I decided to kill the wizard by hiring two other wizards of equal level to kill him for me, after all the only thing more pwoerful than a lvl 20 wizard, is two lvl 20 wizards.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:54 PM
I don't think you understand the answers I'm looking for.

I'm not looking for a build from a sourcebook, I'm not looking for an exploit, I'm not looking for some cool feat or PrC that will give you a shot at the prize.

I'm looking for the process that one would need to undertake to take down a wizard. Example:

• Screen yourself from divination
• Avoid contingencies
• Act first, or mitigate whatever he can do on his first round
• Deal with traps
• Deal with minions
• Catch up
• Nail him down
• Interfere with his casting
• Staple his head and intestines to two separate walls.

Specifically, I'm looking for what one would need, regardless of whether it exists or not, to have a chance in a fight against a wizard.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 10:55 PM
<Snip>
You've already gotten the answer, even if you don't like it.

Be. A. Wizard.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 10:59 PM
If only Complete Divine was allowed, there's a Prestige Class, It makes you so powerful its recommended the PC becomes an NPC if the Campaign turns himinto this, I can't think of what its called but very simply it makes you immune to magic and allows you to redirect spells back at the caster... if only it were allowed. If high level spell casters were allowed I would say Chronomancer, see how awizard deals with being frozen in time. heh heh.
I still prefer my original idea, but you could just take a party of characters with rediculous amounts of buff enchantment magic items to make your saves, as well as Str/Dex depending on fighting style, and Constitution or take several items that give you Spell resistance and stack them, now immune to his magic, he will be easy to take care of, but he will know you have this prepared, so make sure you have fairlyhigh saves. Anyways, you then still need to know how to get past his traps, which I guess really depends on what they are, a rogue is better at disarming traps, but a paladin is better at fighting hordes of demons. I still prefer my original answer. Or just send the Pc's in blind, and allow them to come up with a solution o their own in the campaign. kinda cruel but it makes them think on their feet.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 10:59 PM
You've already gotten the answer, even if you don't like it.

Be. A. Wizard.

:smallsigh: No, no I have not.

Must I spell it out for you?

I am going to take the notes from this thread and homebrew some means for even a lowly fighter to stand a chance against a wizard, including bypassing contingency, shrugging off spells, ignoring illusions and any other bloody thing that a wizard might try.

But only if people stop telling me "go wizard."

In other words, I don't fracking care if the only way to beat the wizard is to play a wizard, because I don't care about ways that currently exist to do so. What I need to get is what needs to be available in order to stand against a wizard, in raw flat terms, rather than "spells." "Spells" are not needed to beat a wizard, the ability to get around what a wizard can do is needed to beat a wizard.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 11:04 PM
:smallsigh: No, no I have not.

Must I spell it out for you?

I am going to take the notes from this thread and homebrew some means for even a lowly fighter to stand a chance against a wizard, including bypassing contingency, shrugging off spells, ignoring illusions and any other bloody thing that a wizard might try.

But only if people stop telling me "go wizard."

In other words, I don't fracking care if the only way to beat the wizard is to play a wizard, because I don't care about ways that currently exist to do so. What I need to get is what needs to be available in order to stand against a wizard, in raw flat terms, rather than "spells." "Spells" are not needed to beat a wizard, the ability to get around what a wizard can do is needed to beat a wizard.

And the only things that will stand up to a wizard's spells are other spells, or things that directly emulate spells.

Items will emulate spells, but then you're a spellcaster without levels in a spellcasting class.

When a character class (core only, mind) has enough cheese available to kill creatures 3 and 4 dozen CRs above his level, you should probably just cave and fight fire with fire. Or realize that you're no match for him, and just give up.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-19, 11:06 PM
Though if the DM means for an encounter to be even vaguely winnable, maybe you should take the out given to you (story or otherwise) and "win" that way.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 11:06 PM
Seiously, one way around it would be to wreck his spellbooks, run away until he forget's what he was doing, and beat him over the head.

Or a catapultish super long range delayed attack thingy and some ways to stay hidden. By the time his contingencies go off you're off setting up the next attack.

Then again, I'm barely familiar with this kinda thought exercise, but hey, maybe I'll think of something new. More likely I'll think of something so stupid that everyone already thought about and dissmissed these things out of hand. :smallbiggrin:

I play clerics in low level campaigns, and that's about it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 11:07 PM
You've already gotten the answer, even if you don't like it.

Be. A. Wizard.He is looking for HOMEBREW options, people.

That said, I don't think you realize the scale of the problem. Wizards, at 20th level, have access to a variety of spells that ignore game mechanics. Completely. Freedom of Movement, Deathward, Timestop, the Wizard essentially says NO! to entire sections of the rulebook and entire base assumptions about the game. Balance is not possible. At best, you can find ways to mitigate entire schools of magic(True Seeing, Mindblank, etc) until the Wizard has no options, at which point suddenly the Wizard is far below the power curve.
You said this was for a campaign setting. If so, why not remove the big 5? Say that the gods are angry about anything approaching their power(or something). :smallwink: ToB can keep martial melee closer to Wizards through levels 11-16, but they run out of steam eventually when confronted with Shapechange and Gate. You either ban 9th level spells, ban the big 3(or all 5), or you decide not to worry about balance and speak to the player if there's a problem.

Edit:And is spellbook is not a weakness at that level. He doesn't leave it sitting open on his desk, he leaves it in a trapped, locked chest in a trapped, locked room, surrounded by POd bound Pit Fiends and Earth Elementals, on his personal scry-proof, teleportation-proof demiplane. Of fire.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 11:08 PM
Ok, for everyone on this thread, he already knows the answer, he wants to see if anyone else does. CAnnot take a spellcaster that can cast higher than fifth level spells, party of four would include monk, rogue, paladin, barbarian.
HAve all equipped with spell resistance items and buff items. Equip rogue with piles of different scrolls and wands, rouge can disable traps, paladin can deal with any demons and evil forces (is the wizard evil?(please don't argue alignment) paladin can help there too) paladin also offers some healing and buff spells. Traps all depend on what the DM throws at you, see my previous comments. When you find the wizard, monk can dimension door in behind for suprise action, and try to stun, same as my previous post, his high saves also help him survive. PAladin can heal/fight to moderate effect, BArbarian can attempt to rage out on wizard, rogue must cast dimmentional anchor then use whatever spells are necessaryb to defeat the wizard and anything he throw at you. Then just rinse and repeat eventually one side will emerge victorious.

kirbsys
2009-05-19, 11:09 PM
Hmm... all twentieth level? Well I think that hypothetically a group of Horizon Walkers could overcome his mobility, but he still has you out-damaged to the hilt. Split up, teleport constantly, Ring of Universal Energy Immunity would give you a nice immunity to most of his elemental spells. As far as gates beings go, ignore them, concentrate on the caster. All else fails, scroll of Momento Mori. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 11:12 PM
And the only things that will stand up to a wizard's spells are other spells, or things that directly emulate spells.

Evading a contingency entirely emulates no spell I know of. Exempting yourself from time stop can be done with Spell Stowaway, which is neither of the above, though admittedly requires a spellcasting background.


When a character class (core only, mind) has enough cheese available to kill creatures 3 and 4 dozen CRs above his level, you should probably just cave and fight fire with fire. Or realize that you're no match for him, and just give up.

I'm not debating this; I am, in fact, quite aware.

However, for the sake of argument, let's suppose that this is not an option; that, in fact, you will have nothing better than yourself, your fists and pointy sticks, plus whatever magic items (and items only) you budgeted for.

My question is, what else would you need to be capable of, in flat terms?

What would your feats, items, class features etc. need to enable you to do?


That said, I don't think you realize the scale of the problem. Wizards, at 20th level, have access to a variety of spells that ignore game mechanics. Completely. Freedom of Movement, Deathward, Timestop, the Wizard essentially says NO! to entire sections of the rulebook and entire base assumptions about the game. Balance is not possible. At best, you can find ways to mitigate entire schools of magic(True Seeing, Mindblank, etc) until the Wizard has no options, at which point suddenly the Wizard is far below the power curve.

Oh, I'm aware. But given true seeing and mind blank, you're now protected from illusion, divination and enchantment. That leaves five direct methods for him to get you, but plenty of options to get away.


You said this was for a campaign setting. If so, why not remove the big 5? Say that the gods are angry about anything approaching their power(or something).

Can't touch classes. However, some of the wizard's spells are nerfed or removed (mostly those dealing with the planes, including all shadow effects).


ToB can keep martial melee closer to Wizards through levels 11-16, but they run out of steam eventually when confronted with Shapechange and Gate.

I've made gate a non-issue.


You either ban 9th level spells, ban the big 3(or all 5), or you decide not to worry about balance and speak to the player if there's a problem.

The problem is, the campaign setting's primary opposition is the use of magic. The world's worst adversaries are all magical creatures. If I am to postulate a powerful fighter, barbarian, rogue, paladin etc. in this world, then I must provide methods for survival.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 11:16 PM
If you want a homebrew solution, a friend of mine created a custom hexblade for our campaign and can crush wizards ask Ellardin about it (note: he is not on this thread) or at http://lucathla.blogspot.com/2008/11/hexblade-of-lucathla-custom-just-for.html it is overpowered at lower levels but tones down in the epic levels, but thats OK cause your scenario is the first epic level. Maybe it helps, anyways, you should check out the rest of the blog, its nifty. I didn't want to paste it here as it is many,many pages.

kirbsys
2009-05-19, 11:30 PM
Okay, I'll give it a shot. Scrying? Well I suppose that can be dealt with using magic items, perhaps and epic version of Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location. A twentieth level nondetection spell would give you a decent chance, especially if all five people held one. Add rings of invisibility to manage to avoid plain sight type scrying, and you might be okay here.

His contingencies. Either need a way to find out what they are then avoid them logically, or you would need the ability to avoid tripping them. The problem with flatly stating that you need to overcome contingencies is the wide range of possible contingencies. For example, if the wizard states that he gets epic mage armor if a hostile approaches within so many feet of him, you'd need a way to appear as a friendly.

His first round is the major problem here. He can time-stop and prepare quite a bit which presents some difficulties. In order to get the drop on the wizard innit wise, there's not much that needs to be done. A decent fighting type should have this down. Assuming the anti-scrying attempts worked, he shouldn't see you coming. The first round could very-well be his last if you do it well enough.

Traps, easy rogue. High level rogue. Bring him along and traps shouldn't pose a major problem.

Minions, the best idea with minions is to avoid them entirely. Rings of invisibility and my previously suggested horizon walker with dimension door out the wazoo would do the trick.

Catching up is the first easy part, while he can dimension door, if you have two horizon walkers in the party, so can you. Twice. On top of that, they have bows and wizards are notorious for being pin-cushions.

To nail him down and interfere with casting, one of the horizon walkers on each side, each with a pole and combat reflexes to disrupt his casting when and if he tries to cast. I'm not overly familiar with what he can do to avoid provoking AoOs but I'm sure they exist. An ability or feat that allows you to attack anyway would help.

A twentieth level wizard has what? 80-100 health? A few good melee hits and its over. I doubt it'd be quite this simple, but its a start.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 11:34 PM
Why should the wizard be genre savvy? I mean, if the player's aren't going with diplomancer cheese, why should the wizard have access to the entire internet's worth of 'why wizards rule' threads? All this stuff is really over kill, right? Why should the wizard take all the effort every day to lay out his contingencys, memorize all those spells etc. etc?

Make him overconfident, then pull one of the more plausible ideas in this thread and run it.

But as far as homebrew goes...

spellthief, but better?
Joker bard, but better?
I dunno.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 11:35 PM
Okay, I'll give it a shot. Scrying? Well I suppose that can be dealt with using magic items, perhaps and epic version of Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location. A twentieth level nondetection spell would give you a decent chance, especially if all five people held one. Add rings of invisibility to manage to avoid plain sight type scrying, and you might be okay here.

Exactly. Magic items can cover the information end.


His contingencies. Either need a way to find out what they are then avoid them logically, or you would need the ability to avoid tripping them.

We assume the latter.


His first round is the major problem here. He can time-stop and prepare quite a bit which presents some difficulties. In order to get the drop on the wizard innit wise, there's not much that needs to be done. A decent fighting type should have this down. Assuming the anti-scrying attempts worked, he shouldn't see you coming. The first round could very-well be his last if you do it well enough.

Well, the fighting type will almost certainly have the better init, but celerity guarantees the time stop.

Which is why rangers, at least, can bypass it with the right spell.


Catching up is the first easy part, while he can dimension door, if you have two horizon walkers in the party, so can you. Twice. On top of that, they have bows and wizards are notorious for being pin-cushions.

Wizard does have teleport and plane shift, though. He can run pretty far.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 11:37 PM
This is kind of silly: find the luckiest man in the world to play all party members, he will always roll very well and the wizard can always roll ones lol seems hard to believe, but using a D20 I rolled eight in a row, so it is possible, I hope noone takes this as cheating, I LOATHE cheaters, it is just a way of alllowing fate to win for you, or faith if you're the religious type, although the gods won't help you. Or you could homebrew a scroll that would allow you to make all you to take 20 as a standard action for everything you do, as well as attacks and saves, for a hundred rounds, I know some might say this is a cheat, but in epic levels, with four of you, I believe all of your wealth could buy this one use item that cannot be copied. then you just need high use magic device and just create the best possible characters your mind can come up with.

afroakuma
2009-05-19, 11:39 PM
Thorcrest: You're missing the point, I'm afraid.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 11:40 PM
Why should the wizard be genre savvy? I mean, if the player's aren't going with diplomancer cheese, why should the wizard have access to the entire internet's worth of 'why wizards rule' threads? All this stuff is really over kill, right? Why should the wizard take all the effort every day to lay out his contingencys, memorize all those spells etc. etc?

Make him overconfident, then pull one of the more plausible ideas in this thread and run it.

But as far as homebrew goes...

spellthief, but better?
Joker bard, but better?
I dunno.Wizards at 20th have between 32 and 34 Int. Albert Einstein had 18. The Wizard is going to know the absolute best options. The entire internet working together just mimics that. We're actually worse off still, due to us devoting maybe 8 hours a day for a couple years, while he spends most of his life considering what to do with his magic. Keep in mind that the non-Wizards are also being made by the population of this forum drawing on resources from the entire internet, despite the characters having 3 Int on occasion. This mimics the potential for a guy to get lucky in his anti-wizard attack and use the right offense on accident. It balances out.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 11:48 PM
I don't care about his INT. I know lottsa lazy smart people. I'm a lazy smart person. Shocking as it may be to this community of geeks, but there is another mental stat, and for a very good reason.

His WIS might well be crap, and that's all that matters.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 11:48 PM
Thorcrest: You're missing the point, I'm afraid.
Missing the point where? with my silly scroll to lighten things up post, or with my prior posts?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-19, 11:51 PM
I don't care about his INT. I know lottsa lazy smart people. I'm a lazy smart person. Shocking as it may be to this community of geeks, but there is another mental stat, and for a very good reason.

His WIS might well be crap, and that's all that matters.Most likely 14-16, which, while not Ben Franklin level, is still far better than most of the population of this forum. Remember, he has 760K to spend, a Belt of Magnificance is actually a pretty nice investment.

Thorcrest
2009-05-19, 11:57 PM
Could always attempt to destroy wizards strong hold by having hundreds of strength. Likely wouldn't work, but most Dm's don't think of things like hardness... until its too late.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 11:59 PM
Aha! But he won't think that it's a good investment until he get's a higher WIS!
Cower before my logic!
Seriously though, even with 16 wis he won't be keeping constant vigil year after year against some people he could beat with one hand behind his back. So one day he'll go ahead and leave his hand behind his back because I'm streching a metaphor because employing his full power take a lot of effort. And the rogue with the binoculars watching from accross the street pulls out his magical walkie talkie and says 'go time.'

Also, Ben Franklin as an example of wisdom? The mans greatest claim to fame was 'I stuck a bit of metal on a kite and stood out in the rain' and womanizing up Paris, and suggesting that the turkey would be a good national symbol. He's the classic high INT low WIS eccentric old fart.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 12:05 AM
Aha! But he won't think that it's a good investment until he get's a higher WIS!
Cower before my logic!
Seriously though, even with 16 wis he won't be keeping constant vigil year after year against some people he could beat with one hand behind his back. So one day he'll go ahead and leave his hand behind his back because I'm streching a metaphor because employing his full power take a lot of effort. And the rogue with the binoculars watching from accross the street pulls out his magical walkie talkie and says 'go time.'Part of the issue is the lack of definition on the mental skills. Even if we can find real-life definitions of the limits of Int and Wis, we're talking about a system where not only is 18 the highest possible for a human, you pass that at about level 3. So why not just give everyone the best possible capabilities and hope it balances out.
Also, Ben Franklin as an example of wisdom? The mans greatest claim to fame was 'I stuck a bit of metal on a kite and stood out in the rain' and womanizing up Paris, and suggesting that the turkey would be a good national symbol. He's the classic high INT low WIS eccentric old fart.Poor Richard's Almanac.

The_JJ
2009-05-20, 12:09 AM
Part of the issue is the lack of definition on the mental skills. Even if we can find real-life definitions of the limits of Int and Wis, we're talking about a system where not only is 18 the highest possible for a human, you pass that at about level 3. So why not just give everyone the best possible capabilities and hope it balances out.

Because it doesn't? And it defies a lot of logic, in game and 'is this person an idea or a charactor.' Hell, if it's been 5 months since the warning detailed in the OP keeping your guard up would be the low WIS response.


Poor Richard's Almanac.

Yeah, there's some good stuff in there, I guess. A bit oddball though. I stand by my 'eccentric old guy' position. But hey, it's irrelivent.

VirOath
2009-05-20, 02:45 AM
Okay, assuming you find some way of wish abuse to twist time in on itself to get past the surprise round, and get one yourself, and use it to negate his contingencies. Now you get to take him in combat.

1st, need to find a way to stop him from escaping. No teleport/DD/plane shift or anything else. Because if he can run, he's gone the second he gets in trouble, only to come back when you are at your worst, or just to endlessly harass you with summons. Very few ways of doing this, one way being a grapple.

2nd, Defenses. High resists are nice, but a touch AC is better. A way for Fort and Will Evasion, as well as Evasion is needed, as is high saves (Multiple instances of Cha to Saves is the easiest way I know). SR in insane numbers can give relief from a number of effects.

3rd, You need to get past his defenses. Pierce Magical Concealment is a perfect start, as is it's sister feat that ignores magical enhancement to AC from spells. Now he is stuck with just Armor and Natural Armor bonuses. Brilliant Energy takes care of one, but touch attacks would be better as he is likely Poly'd. Need to get around DR and Resists as well. Undead can be dusted and busted, summons can be locked out with Magic Circle Against/Protection from..., Natural or Supernatural flight will be needed, to prevent terrain from being a disadvantage and from being dispelled.

And one of the biggest obstacles is Prismatic Sphere. It's a giant WIN button while it's up, makes him immune to everything you can toss at him. Even then, there is still more to come. Unless you knock him out early, it's a massively uphill battle.


But the point of the matter is, you are asking for a non optimized build, not allowing cheese to take out a cheesed and optimized Wizard. Despite what some would say, it is possible, but it would require a specialized build right from the word go, and even then need to utilize some manner of 'cheese' as you are fighting something that wasn't even intended on existing.

Adumbration
2009-05-20, 03:41 AM
If all classes mustn't be the same, my dreamteam would be something like:
- Rogue/Hellbreaker/X (For the use of Stowaway, when the wizard teleports)
- Wildshaping ranger/MoMF/Wildshaping prestige class X (General utility and for the Will-O'-Wisp)
- Binder 20 (Best substitute for a caster when no casters are allowed)
- Paladin/Hellreaver/Witch Slayer (Healer/tank/damage dealer/disjunctioner)
- Dragonfire adept 20 (make the wizard make reflex saves)

At least the wildshaper should have VoP for True Seeing and perks, and the others should carry around Gems of True Seeing. Also some method of teleporting accurately, and a swift way of scrying the Rogue's location after the teleport. I think these should have at least some chance against a wizard in a straight battle. I'm not sure yet how to locate the wizard, but c'est la vie.

Aquillion
2009-05-20, 05:10 AM
...has the thread really gone on this far without anyone asking if we get a free iPod for this?

The_Werebear
2009-05-20, 06:01 AM
Thought of something else that needs to be taken care of to beat the Wizard-- You have to force him out of extradimensional space. Nothing prevents him from hiding inside Magnificent Mansions forever (Or at least until he becomes a lich and the fighters die of old age).

The only solution I could come up with for that was to threaten something else the wizard loves, but for some foes that's not an option.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 06:14 AM
Okay, assuming you find some way of wish abuse to twist time in on itself to get past the surprise round, and get one yourself, and use it to negate his contingencies. Now you get to take him in combat.

Check, check.


1st, need to find a way to stop him from escaping. No teleport/DD/plane shift or anything else. Because if he can run, he's gone the second he gets in trouble, only to come back when you are at your worst, or just to endlessly harass you with summons. Very few ways of doing this, one way being a grapple.

Grapple or dimensional anchor.


2nd, Defenses. High resists are nice, but a touch AC is better. A way for Fort and Will Evasion, as well as Evasion is needed, as is high saves (Multiple instances of Cha to Saves is the easiest way I know). SR in insane numbers can give relief from a number of effects.

Check on all.


3rd, You need to get past his defenses. Pierce Magical Concealment is a perfect start, as is it's sister feat that ignores magical enhancement to AC from spells. Now he is stuck with just Armor and Natural Armor bonuses. Brilliant Energy takes care of one, but touch attacks would be better as he is likely Poly'd. Need to get around DR and Resists as well.

Check on all.


Undead can be dusted and busted, summons can be locked out with Magic Circle Against/Protection from..., Natural or Supernatural flight will be needed, to prevent terrain from being a disadvantage and from being dispelled.

Or else some other way to cross difficult terrain.


And one of the biggest obstacles is Prismatic Sphere. It's a giant WIN button while it's up, makes him immune to everything you can toss at him.

So, step through it. Check.


Thought of something else that needs to be taken care of to beat the Wizard-- You have to force him out of extradimensional space. Nothing prevents him from hiding inside Magnificent Mansions forever (Or at least until he becomes a lich and the fighters die of old age).

Very true... some form of magic key that reveals and opens similar effects?

potatocubed
2009-05-20, 06:48 AM
So, step through [prismatic sphere]. Check.

I'm not sure you can. Doesn't one of the effects simulate a wall of force?

Of course, you're going to need a way of breaking through a wall of force anyway.

Thorcrest
2009-05-20, 06:51 AM
Buid/hire soemone to build an army of golems, preferably battle golem Juggernaughts, these are immune to magic and have a damage reduction of 30/adamantine lets see the wizard take those out. Also have like 150 HD each. At epic levels, nothing stops you from building a hundred and just send them in, once they reach the wizard they are bound to win, as he will do minimal damgae in combat and his spells can only affect him.:smallsmile:

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 07:26 AM
I'm not sure you can. Doesn't one of the effects simulate a wall of force?

Of course, you're going to need a way of breaking through a wall of force anyway.

Doesn't look that way.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-20, 08:11 AM
So for stepping through it, you'll need high Energy Resistance or outright Immunity, immunity to poison and/or death, immunity to petrification, immunity to mind-affecting, and immunity to being planeshifted/disintegrated. Substitute excellent saves for any or all of the above, but if you're taking a wizard on to being with, you'll at least have a few of them already, most likely the Death and Mind-affecting immunities.

Tehnar
2009-05-20, 08:43 AM
1) Contingencies: I think getting past those is not a problem, since I don't feel that a contingency can activate on a trigger of "hostile creature approaching". Thus, the worst you can fear from a contingency, IMO, is a free action teleport on the wizards turn.

2) Escape. If the wizard is supremely paranoid he will teleport away at the first chance he gets. Thus he will, due to the dire tortoise effect, is that he will get a suprise round, use celerity, and teleport away, before anyone had a chance to act. There is a way to deal with that however, using a level 1 ranger spell and a antimagic torc to supress his shapechange.

3) The time stop onslaught, where the wizard drops the bomb on the intruders:
Fact of the matter is, that you can make yourself immune to most things a wizard can hit you with using magical items. Off the top of my head items for energy immunity, necromancy effects immunity, illusions, mind affecting stuff, ability drain and ability damage, poison, movement impairing effects exist, and you can get them all under a character level 20 budget and leave room for weapons.

4) Minions:
I hate to say it, but the best way to handle any wizards minion is frenzied berserker shock trooper with a antimagic torc activated. It should handle anything the wizard can have bound or created.

5) Traps:
The highest DC a magical trap can have is 34. Any decent level 20 skillmonkey will be able to disable such a trap easily.


However the biggest problem the would be wizard assassins will encounter is the DM. Most of the spells, feats and abilities a wizard will use are vague, where different interpretations of the rules are possible. Clearly and coherently defining what the spells, feats and abilities can and cannot do will help the would be assassins greatly.

The second problem is that in this challenge we are dealing with the Schrodinger wizard, where the would be assassins have to deal with a amalgam of every wizard build possible. A real, factual BBEG that a DM creates will not have all those options at his disposal.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 09:29 AM
You will need a way of somehow getting around all of the 'absolute' spells - Freedom of Movement for example.

Offering an option that allows a chance against any and all spells which prevent the wizard being subject to X,Y or Z would work (I'm fully in the "those should not exist" crowd, and there are enough spells affected that you could probably just make that into a rule at the end of the first chapter).

Just be careful to make sure that you aren't allowing people to incinerate Fire Elementals (bypass subtype immunities of non-elemental, non-outsiders when at least 50 points of damage are dealt?)

Even if it did all that, it would still be less horrible than Natural Spell. Or about equal.

mangosta71
2009-05-20, 10:06 AM
Step 1: You need something to force him out of this dire tortoise cheese before he's aware of your presence. Someone listed a martial class that could decide to go before the wizard, even on the surprise round. So do that, make him go human, and he loses his action in the surprise round.

Step 2: Monk with an AMF ring dimension steps onto the wizard, knocking off his various defenses and contingencies and grapples him. Note that this is still the surprise round. Come to think of it, wouldn't the AMF knock him out of turtle?

Step 3: Profit.

Learnedguy
2009-05-20, 10:25 AM
I wonder, does foresight work on someone inside an anti-magic field? Say, if a rogue is inside a personal anti-magic field and decides to stab his old chum Wizardly Wizardington, would Wizardly be able to perceive it?

Anyway, killing wizards is a simple as doing a bluff check. To fool the universe and its fat twin reality of your intent. After you've managed that, the wizard might as well lay down and die, because nothing, NOTHING will be able to save him.

grautry
2009-05-20, 11:03 AM
Well, I only sort-of skimmed the thread(so I apologise if I repeat anything) but I've got one more absolutely god-awfully-broken thing to add.

If you wanna take a wizard down, you need to find a way to destroy the demiplane that he conjured with Genesis. Or find a way to make it non-Timeless or at least stop Time trait manipulation. The Timeless trait just gives any Wizard absolutely insane, mind-boggling flexibility. Any plan that you come up with will be ruined if the wizard just comes back a couple of rounds later - but this time, with spells, buffs and allies(possibly) custom-tailored to destroy you.

Another thing I didn't see mentioned is Astral Projection. See, the wizard doesn't really need to do anything in his own body, risking death. He can just project himself if he so wishes and if he's killed then he just snaps back to his body. So, you need to either find a way to snap the silver cord that connects the wizard to his projection(kills if the Wizard is on Astral Plane, snaps him back to body otherwise) or some way to find the body of the wizard.

But I concur that the biggest pain in the ass are probably the contingencies. I mean, even if you kill the wizard(which would be impressive for a wizard that really cuts loose with what he can do), the best that you can hope for is "Port me to a friendly cleric capable of casting True Resurrection". So, Soul Bind and something against contingencies.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 11:12 AM
Well, I only sort-of skimmed the thread(so I apologise if I repeat anything) but I've got one more absolutely god-awfully-broken thing to add.

If you wanna take a wizard down, you need to find a way to destroy the demiplane that he conjured with Genesis.

The rules stipulate that genesis is not available to the wizard.


Another thing I didn't see mentioned is Astral Projection.

The rules also stipulate that astral projection is not available to the wizard.


So for stepping through it, you'll need high Energy Resistance or outright Immunity, immunity to poison and/or death, immunity to petrification, immunity to mind-affecting, and immunity to being planeshifted/disintegrated. Substitute excellent saves for any or all of the above, but if you're taking a wizard on to being with, you'll at least have a few of them already, most likely the Death and Mind-affecting immunities.

You're overcomplicating it by going with what already exists. To step through a prismatic sphere, you just need some ability to step through a prismatic sphere.


You will need a way of somehow getting around all of the 'absolute' spells - Freedom of Movement for example.

Offering an option that allows a chance against any and all spells which prevent the wizard being subject to X,Y or Z would work (I'm fully in the "those should not exist" crowd, and there are enough spells affected that you could probably just make that into a rule at the end of the first chapter).

Very true. I think this is in the cards.


Just be careful to make sure that you aren't allowing people to incinerate Fire Elementals (bypass subtype immunities of non-elemental, non-outsiders when at least 50 points of damage are dealt?)

Even more important considering the number of efreeti in the setting.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 11:20 AM
Snapping the cord from Astral Projection kills no matter what - it's meant to be a balancing factor to the spell. You need to be able to hit incorporeal things, and also ignore the hardness of the object, but a well-built Horizon Walker could do pretty well, I guess.

Also, the exercise assumes that Genesis abuse is out - the idea is to find out exactly what CS-specific rules and options Afroakuma would need to make in order to fulfil his secondary goal of improving class balance within the campaign setting he is designing.

This has the useful side effect of curbing Incantatrix cheese as well.

@afro - try adding a couple of rituals that shut down particular spells for a particular person using sympathetic magic. That could be interesting.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 11:31 AM
Snapping the cord from Astral Projection kills no matter what - it's meant to be a balancing factor to the spell. You need to be able to hit incorporeal things, and also ignore the hardness of the object, but a well-built Horizon Walker could do pretty well, I guess.

Also, the exercise assumes that Genesis abuse is out - the idea is to find out exactly what CS-specific rules and options Afroakuma would need to make in order to fulfil his secondary goal of improving class balance within the campaign setting he is designing.

Well, the CS design stipulates that the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow planes can't be tapped or accessed, so in and of itself there's a gross reduction in possible wizardy shenanigans.


This has the useful side effect of curbing Incantatrix cheese as well.

Oh god yes. :smallyuk:


@afro - try adding a couple of rituals that shut down particular spells for a particular person using sympathetic magic. That could be interesting.

I'm getting there; there's already one ritual that will shut down a wizard hard unless all of their spells are silent or they have a really dextrous friend who's tired of living.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 11:33 AM
So...assuming that the wizard can't make use of his most obvious and powerful abilities, and that 3/4 of his spell list is either nerfed or gone, and that he somehow makes a number of mistakes that even a neophyte wizard would be too smart to make...

...a noncaster MIGHT have a chance at beating a level 20 wizard.

Maybe.

And then only if they're insanely well-equipped, prepared for nigh any eventuality, and get really, REALLY lucky.

Somehow I don't think that this setup really makes for a plausible setup for the challenge.

Haven
2009-05-20, 11:58 AM
So perhaps the homebrew you're looking for could be something like a homebrew prestige class, we'll call it "The X Factor", with the fluff that they're a step removed from reality, and as a result, their actions don't show up on divinations or trigger contingencies. Have everyone dip into that, and have one party member take it all five levels, which gives them disjunction and dimensional anchor as spell-like abilities, and 1/day the ability to always go first which, quote, "functions as the dire tortoise ability but totally beats it forever lolololol", endquote.

Something crazy like that.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 12:09 PM
I doubt this would really get to three quarters of a spell list being wiped out.

It does have the useful effect of removing Shadow Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell is considered too broken to use. So if the wizard goes for the standard ban-evocation and enchantment approach, then this should actually become slightly easier (because the wizard will not simply vanish when in trouble).

I think Contingencies should probably carry at least some risk of failure in any event.

Enochi
2009-05-20, 12:26 PM
Hmm okay here is what I think. If he is shapeshifting into crazy forms give the PCs an item that LOCKS him in the form then an antimagic field. Then the pcs arent fighting a crazy ass wizard but whatever monster the wizard turned into. However the PCs with have to manage to 1. Trick the wizard into shapeshifting or sneak up on him while he is sleeping in Dire Tortise form. 2. Keep him in range of the Lockdown and Antimagic field and 3. be able to beat the cr whatever monster he turned into.

grautry
2009-05-20, 12:41 PM
The rules stipulate that genesis is not available to the wizard.

The rules also stipulate that astral projection is not available to the wizard.

Ah well, that's what I get for reading the beginning of the thread in the morning and replying in the afternoon.


Snapping the cord from Astral Projection kills no matter what - it's meant to be a balancing factor to the spell. You need to be able to hit incorporeal things, and also ignore the hardness of the object, but a well-built Horizon Walker could do pretty well, I guess.

Ah yeah. I was re-checking SRD today when I was posting and I must've misread it.

Telonius
2009-05-20, 01:01 PM
So perhaps the homebrew you're looking for could be something like a homebrew prestige class, we'll call it "The X Factor", with the fluff that they're a step removed from reality, and as a result, their actions don't show up on divinations or trigger contingencies. Have everyone dip into that, and have one party member take it all five levels, which gives them disjunction and dimensional anchor as spell-like abilities, and 1/day the ability to always go first which, quote, "functions as the dire tortoise ability but totally beats it forever lolololol", endquote.

Something crazy like that.

Not a half-bad idea. Another crazy idea to go along with that ... give it a pool of points similar to the Knight's Challenges. For 6, you can bypass contingencies for x rounds. For 5, go first, no exceptions pre-Epic. For 4, act as though you have an AMF emanating from (but not affecting) you. For 3, Dimensional Anchor, radius x feet. And so on. The catch: you lose one point each round you fail to take offensive action (advancing towards it counts) against the arcane caster. No penalty if there's no spellcaster to attack.

Seems like "Mage Hunter," "Mage Slayer," or "Wizardbane" would be a good name for it.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-20, 01:11 PM
Not a half-bad idea. Another crazy idea to go along with that ... give it a pool of points similar to the Knight's Challenges. For 6, you can bypass contingencies for x rounds. For 5, go first, no exceptions pre-Epic. For 4, act as though you have an AMF emanating from (but not affecting) you. For 3, Dimensional Anchor, radius x feet. And so on. The catch: you lose one point each round you fail to take offensive action (advancing towards it counts) against the arcane caster. No penalty if there's no spellcaster to attack.

Seems like "Mage Hunter," "Mage Slayer," or "Wizardbane" would be a good name for it.

Definitely Wizardbane...or more accurately, Wizard'Bane'. It's very appropriate considering we're trying to 'break' the wizard's dominance.

Now that's a scary thought, actually. Bane with magic?

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 01:11 PM
So...assuming that the wizard can't make use of his most obvious and powerful abilities, and that 3/4 of his spell list is either nerfed or gone, and that he somehow makes a number of mistakes that even a neophyte wizard would be too smart to make...

I don't understand why you seem to be taking such a negative view. The wizard's certainly not losing 3/4 of the spell list; only certain specific planar effects:

shadow walk, shadow evocation, shadow conjuration, shades, ethereal jaunt, planar binding, astral projection, off the top of my head.

Teleport and other such effects that don't actually involve the plane in question will remain intact, as will summon monster spells. Gate was always broken, and from a flavor perspective needs the nerf. This still leaves time stop, forcecage, shapechange and a whole host of wizard favorites. So you're dipping well into hyberbole here.


And then only if they're insanely well-equipped, prepared for nigh any eventuality, and get really, REALLY lucky.

You're clearly ignoring the point of this exercise. It's not to prove wizard superiority; we got that memo. It's to say, given wizard superiority, what makes him superior and what would need to be possible to level the playing field. But you don't seem to want to contribute.


Somehow I don't think that this setup really makes for a plausible setup for the challenge.

Again; you're missing the point. I'm not challenging the existing rules, or the conventional uber-Batman. I'm asking that, with flavor-dictated, reasonable restrictions to some effects, what expansions to the rules would bring a viable challenge to a 20th level wizard.

But, as before: you seem intent on not participating.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 02:12 PM
It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.

For instance; sure, the wizard can have only a single gate active at a time. And sure, RAW he can only control up to 2x his CL in HD. But that doesn't stop Mr. Lvl 20 Wizard from using a single gate to pull in six hecatonchieres, or twelve atroposes, or fifteen chichimecs, and then teleporting out.

Or casting a Maximized time stop on his turn (using a metamagic rod, and maybe Extend Spell with metamagic reducers) and setting himself up with a wall of iron (to stand on); stone shape (as a dome) and prismatic sphere just outside the stone shape, to prevent entry into the sphere and to prevent damage to the dome, as well as a dimensional anchor spell on the stone shaped dome to prevent teleportation in.

A shapechange (one for him and one for his familiar) to turn the two of them incorporeal, and to grant a huge number of supernatural abilities; and two ring-gates (one to keep inside the dome, and one with his familiar for him to cast out of).

A Quickened limited wish or shadow evocation to get whatever extra contingencies he might decide that he needs at the spur of the moment (see: contingent teleport).

A few well-thought-out shrink item'd items that will act as both offense (via telekinesis + thousands of pounds of boulders, or several hundreds of gallons of shrunken cloth-of-black-lotus-extract, amongst other things), and defense (the aforementioned shrunken dome, and numerous other clever ruses).

A pre-prepared magnificent mansion and/or rope trick for an easy escape.

Another gate spell set to open into some incredibly inhospitable plane (such as the paraelemental plane of lava, or the far realm) to flood the room (while the wizard, of course, is safely tucked away inside his prismatic shell, or maybe just a resilient sphere).

A reverse gravity to hurl you into an open gate, into a prismatic sphere, or some other hazard.

An army of undead, golems, elementals, demons, devils, and other permanent slaves, bound to him via any number of means (see: create (greater) undead, lesser/greater planar ally, dominate monster, etc etc etc).

As well as the spellcasting gumption of every other arcane and divine class out there, given that he has access to all of their spell-lists (via any number of spells, including polymorph, shapechange, polymorph any object, - since spellcasting is officially an Ex attack - and summons).

Virtually every status effect in the game; negative levels, ability penalties, ability damage, ability drain, disjunctions, fear effects (shaken, not stirred), exhaustion effects, and myriad others.

Battlefield-control which can simply shut down anyone he feels like; solid fog + dimension lock, for instance.

Skill-boosters which boost his abilities way beyond what anyone else can do (see: moment of prescience); and that's assuming he wants to make the check at all, and doesn't bypass it completely.

He can target any and all defenses you have; at least one of which will likely be your weak spot (and with his insane Knowledge skills, he'll most likely know which defense is your weakness). Many of his abilities have no defense, even for things "immune" to magic.

Note that the aforementioned spell onslaught has hardly put a dent into the number of spell-slots he has available, since he can use rods of absorption as both defensive tools (to absorb incoming spells) and to burn instead of spell-slots. He also has pearls of power, Mordenkainen's lubrication (the better to screw you with, my dear), rings of spell storing, rings of wizardry, and all sorts of other ways to save his slots. All of which he's fully capable of crafting, if he feels like it.

And he can change his abilities every single day, to suit his whims. You will never, ever know exactly what he has prepped for any given day, because his spellbooks should have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells filling them to the brim, and he can access any spell that it's possible to research, given just a bit of time. And good luck reaching his spellbooks, given that he can place them permanently out of anyone's reach but his own.

...and that's just from straight core; splatbooks make this much, MUCH worse.

I don't think you quite realize just how insane casters really are at high levels. THAT is why I'm being 'negative'. It's like picking up a few grenades and attempting to assassinate GOD. It just doesn't work.

Enochi
2009-05-20, 03:12 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.

Things the party will have to acomplish it.
1. Kill all the monsters the wizard chucks at you
2. Survive all his damage spell
3. Get past all his spell defences
4. Keep him from escaping

Best thing I can think off

Have an archer a mile outside his tower shooting arrows and wait until the PC rolls 3 20s in a row. Instant dead wizard. Should take about 8000 shots before it works. Saying full bab with rapid shot is 6 shots a second. Should take roughly 2 hours 15min ingame time. Longer in real life time.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 03:14 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.

Things the party will have to acomplish it.
1. Kill all the monsters the wizard chucks at you
2. Survive all his damage spell
3. Get past all his spell defences
4. Keep him from escaping

Best thing I can think off

Have an archer a mile outside his tower shooting arrows and wait until the PC rolls 3 20s in a row. Instant dead wizard. Should take about 8000 shots before it works. Saying full bab with rapid shot is 6 shots a second. Should take roughly 2 hours 15min ingame time. Longer in real life time.

...I don't think this works, exactly. The first couple of arrows will either see immediate retaliation, or a single mid-to-low level spell that makes him immune from your arrow attacks (or even moving to a room with no windows). After which he'll simply ignore you.

You have to be prepared for EVERYTHING he could possibly throw at you, and you have to do so before he knows you exist; else you WILL lose.

All it takes is one scry-n-die, after all; especially if he gets forewarning before you do.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 03:26 PM
It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.

<snip>


OK, to parse that into something afroakuma can use:

You need a way of yanking incorporeal characters out of solid objects, to prevent a wizard hiding in one then using his defensive spells to make it indestructible and his other tricks to avoid losing LoE. Maybe something that assumes control of an active spell effect (force the wizard to shapechange into a creature with negligible stats), or a couple of buff-cancelling feats Maybe a way of getting into spaces blocked off by both physical barriers and magical wards. Could be OP though. A way of getting into extra-dimensional spaces created by others. A way of levitating or flying, which was necessary all along anyway Possibly a way of changing the defence they use against a particular effect. Letting characters avoid Death effects with Will saves, for example. A way of forcing saves against certain no-save effects (e.g. Energy Drain) would be nice.



Neither the Shrink Item cheese nor the PaO cheese you mentioned can be accepted - what happens when Shrink Item ends or is suppressed is unclear, so you cannot assume it to be to your benefit. It's a standard action to expand the item (in the same way as any other deliberate utterance of a command word), so throwing it at something is also out without DM fiat.

As for PaO cheese: you cannot PaO anything into a member of any class but Commoner. You could certainly abuse all those mighty (6.023e23)th level spell slots that a commoner gains at 1st level... or not.

Shadow spells and Gates are outside the scope of the exercise, and there is no way to gain multiple contingencies apart from Craft Contingent Spell, which is why even the most rabid of the "IF U BAN THIS U SUK AND UR H0US3RUL1NG" crowd don't use it.

If that's all you can come up with in Core, then Core + Homebrew has a pretty fair shot at being balanced.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 03:32 PM
Those were just a few examples of what a core-only wizard can do.

Just a fraction. I can come up with tons more, if you like. And they don't even really rely on a specific build; just RAW access to spells that wizards are supposed to get anyway.

Also, there are beasties that still cast as Xth-level clerics/wizards/sorcerers, even if they have commoner levels. And you get access to those spells. Just look at dragons. And outsiders. And illithids. And all the Su abilities you get access to (which mimic some pretty powerful spells).

Thorcrest
2009-05-20, 04:56 PM
Everyone here seems to be focused on what the wizard can do, what they should be focused on iswhat they can't do. Now, thats just thinking outside the box, the Pc's just need to find a way to learn those weaknesses and take advantage of them, I don't want any more of this the wizard can just go back and prepare for what you are prepared for and counter you, the rules of this engagement state that the wizard already knows what you are doing, NO MATTER WHAT, therefore, the wizard will basically know what to do to stop you. Oh buffed by magic items, Anti magic field(suprise round) shape change (into something that PCs are not prepared for) kill the PCs. Go to beat the wizard up in combat, tons of buffs, PCs dead. Not trying to be negative or anything, but the PC's are just screwed unless they can find a way to overcome his mind reading thingy (yeah its not technical). And don't say I cast Mind Blank or I have no mind I am Insane type things cause wizard dispels and scries respectively. Only way to remove this from him would be (that I can think of) to create an immunity to magic magic item, yup a magic item that makes you immune to magic. If the Rules state that this is not available then there is NO way to win as the wizard will always be able to counter you, people here keep assuming they can reach the wizard, but upon entering the tower, if he knows what you are weak against, he can just send countless waves of things that will eventually destroy you, or create an illusion world that appears real to the Pcs where they kill a wizard (not the wizard) and celebrate never realizing they have been gassed and put in his dungeon etc. Therefore people need to come up with a way to remove his mind reading before anything or else they die room one, never reaching the wizard, no matter what you do no matter how prepared you are so everyone should concentrate on one thing until afro (sorry don't know your full username) says omeone has found a suitable solution. But assuming my Immune to Magic thing Works, the wizard could just leave before your in range to reach you and then just collapse the dungeon, (this is plausible to know you are there as he probably has a conventional alarm system) therefore you die again, so the players have to find a way to know where the wizard is exactly and teleport there for a suprise round where they can beat him down as he hopefully won't have his buffs up for a non-exisitant threat, though the players will have to have high innitiative to ensure going first to dimensional anchor on the wizard. Just somehing to think about and my possible solution.

So REMEMBER: STEP 1: Disable his all knowingness
STEP 2: Come up with a plan, that's your, the hypothetical PCs, job :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 04:57 PM
It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.


For instance; sure, the wizard can have only a single gate active at a time. And sure, RAW he can only control up to 2x his CL in HD. But that doesn't stop Mr. Lvl 20 Wizard from using a single gate to pull in six hecatonchieres, or twelve atroposes, or fifteen chichimecs, and then teleporting out.

Gate is a special case, as indicated before, because gate is being changed. No wizard will be able to summon any of those things without resorting to horrific Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks, plus the potential consequences of being sucked back through or suffering temporary spell loss.


Or casting a Maximized time stop on his turn (using a metamagic rod, and maybe Extend Spell with metamagic reducers) and setting himself up with a wall of iron (to stand on); stone shape (as a dome) and prismatic sphere just outside the stone shape, to prevent entry into the sphere and to prevent damage to the dome, as well as a dimensional anchor spell on the stone shaped dome to prevent teleportation in.

Alright, so two options: ignore his time stop or walk through his prismatic sphere and break his stone shape. Hello, non-teleporting wizard!


A shapechange

That one I shan't contest.


and two ring-gates (one to keep inside the dome, and one with his familiar for him to cast out of).

Shouldn't ring gates not function under dimensional anchor, being based on gate? Not too big a point, though, regardless.


A Quickened limited wish or shadow evocation to get whatever extra contingencies he might decide that he needs at the spur of the moment (see: contingent teleport).

Shadow evocation does not exist. Contingency can be bypassed.


A few well-thought-out shrink item'd items that will act as both offense (via telekinesis + thousands of pounds of boulders, or several hundreds of gallons of shrunken cloth-of-black-lotus-extract, amongst other things), and defense (the aforementioned shrunken dome, and numerous other clever ruses).

All very clever tactics.


A pre-prepared magnificent mansion and/or rope trick for an easy escape.

Item to bypass both.


Another gate spell set to open into some incredibly inhospitable plane (such as the paraelemental plane of lava, or the far realm) to flood the room (while the wizard, of course, is safely tucked away inside his prismatic shell, or maybe just a resilient sphere).

Neither plane exists in the cosmology; attempting to open a gate to either would be more risk than it's worth.


A reverse gravity to hurl you into an open gate, into a prismatic sphere, or some other hazard.

Ignore the spell.


An army of undead, golems, elementals, demons, devils, and other permanent slaves, bound to him via any number of means (see: create (greater) undead, lesser/greater planar ally, dominate monster, etc etc etc).

Again, what one would expect from an intelligent wizard.


As well as the spellcasting gumption of every other arcane and divine class out there, given that he has access to all of their spell-lists (via any number of spells, including polymorph, shapechange, polymorph any object, - since spellcasting is officially an Ex attack - and summons).

Where was this ruling made? I'd very much like to see it.


Virtually every status effect in the game; negative levels, ability penalties, ability damage, ability drain, disjunctions, fear effects (shaken, not stirred), exhaustion effects, and myriad others.

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.


Battlefield-control which can simply shut down anyone he feels like; solid fog + dimension lock, for instance.

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.


He can target any and all defenses you have; at least one of which will likely be your weak spot (and with his insane Knowledge skills, he'll most likely know which defense is your weakness). Many of his abilities have no defense, even for things "immune" to magic.

Yes, but once again, they all rely on the same function. Ignored.


Note that the aforementioned spell onslaught has hardly put a dent into the number of spell-slots he has available, since he can use rods of absorption as both defensive tools (to absorb incoming spells) and to burn instead of spell-slots. He also has pearls of power, Mordenkainen's lubrication (the better to screw you with, my dear), rings of spell storing, rings of wizardry, and all sorts of other ways to save his slots. All of which he's fully capable of crafting, if he feels like it.

Alright, so the wizard has a boatload of toys that all enrich the same function. Ignored.


And he can change his abilities every single day, to suit his whims. You will never, ever know exactly what he has prepped for any given day, because his spellbooks should have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells filling them to the brim, and he can access any spell that it's possible to research, given just a bit of time. And good luck reaching his spellbooks, given that he can place them permanently out of anyone's reach but his own.

I don't disagree, but the only spells that matter in battle are those in the her and now.


I don't think you quite realize just how insane casters really are at high levels. THAT is why I'm being 'negative'. It's like picking up a few grenades and attempting to assassinate GOD. It just doesn't work.

I am well aware of exactly how insane casters are at high levels, and I'm starting to find it more than a bit insulting that you give me so little credit.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 05:29 PM
Those were just a few examples of what a core-only wizard can do.

Just a fraction. I can come up with tons more, if you like. And they don't even really rely on a specific build; just RAW access to spells that wizards are supposed to get anyway.

Also, there are beasties that still cast as Xth-level clerics/wizards/sorcerers, even if they have commoner levels. And you get access to those spells. Just look at dragons. And outsiders. And illithids. And all the Su abilities you get access to (which mimic some pretty powerful spells).

I'm fully aware that you get the supernatural abilities of creatures into which you shapechange, but I would like to see how you were able to infer that you get their spellcasting. You don't.

Spells do not have a tag because they don't need one, because they work in the same way as they would for a member of a character class. Are those extraordinary abilities?

Note that I'm neglecting the really badly-written entries where possesion of a vorpal sword is considered a supernatural ability (which was also really inconsistent, because magic items are not listed as having one of the three standard types either).

Also, the abilities you mentioned before can all be countered with homebrew abilities and character options. Do you have any combos which are not dependent on the same few spells?

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 06:38 PM
Currently, an 18th level monk in the upcoming campaign setting can rather cheerfully murder a wizard who goes for time stop. Non-illusory defenses and active battle strategy instead of superiority complex/uber-spell reliance combo will be required.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 06:42 PM
An interesting technique could be to take a leaf out of the human immune system's book and make characters more resistant to spells the more times those spells are used against them in an encounter.

A feat, maybe?

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 06:55 PM
Ehh, I don't think anyone would have fun tracking it. Nor would it be too practical.

Right now, Fifth Vasrah lets a monk get away with wizard-murder, but few others will be able to take it. There's a magic item that emulates it somewhat, but a related ability might be better.

Tehnar
2009-05-20, 07:28 PM
Maybe what you need is a continuation of the Mage Slayer line of feats:

- one that allows you to send non material plane creatures whence they came from
- one that deals with polymorphed creatures, such as turning them into their true form and keeping them there for a bit
- one that penetrates magical spell effects, negating them or dispelling them (such as walls of force, prismatic spheres, walls of fire, etc).

Maybe add other features, like allowing classes with trapfinding to use disable device checks to dispel/supress/bypass spells affecting a area, and not just traps.

Remove, edit, or clearly define the extent of effect of some troublesome spells.
Remove some items. I personally don't allow metamagic rods in my games.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 08:03 PM
Maybe what you need is a continuation of the Mage Slayer line of feats:

- one that allows you to send non material plane creatures whence they came from

In this campaign setting, that would be fairly futile most of the time.


- one that deals with polymorphed creatures, such as turning them into their true form and keeping them there for a bit

Now that would be useful... and more of a ritual than a straight-up feat.


- one that penetrates magical spell effects, negating them or dispelling them (such as walls of force, prismatic spheres, walls of fire, etc).

You've seen Fifth Vasrah; you know what it can do.


Remove, edit, or clearly define the extent of effect of some troublesome spells.
Remove some items. I personally don't allow metamagic rods in my games.

I have to do both due to the nature of the setting.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 08:29 PM
Gate is a special case, as indicated before, because gate is being changed. No wizard will be able to summon any of those things without resorting to horrific Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks, plus the potential consequences of being sucked back through or suffering temporary spell loss.That's a good change to make, agreed.


Alright, so two options: ignore his time stop or walk through his prismatic sphere and break his stone shape. Hello, non-teleporting wizard!Can't break the stone shape. It's being protected by the prismatic sphere. And you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because there's a dome of stone along its inner radius.

Ignoring a time stop is all well and good, except that if the wizard knows you can do that (and he will), he'll merely Quicken the stone shape instead.


Shouldn't ring gates not function under dimensional anchor, being based on gate? Not too big a point, though, regardless.If the wizard targeted a ring gate directly, sure. Though I suppose, since he's already shapechanged into an incorporeal critter, he could forgo the dimensional anchor and merely leave a 1' x 1' x .5' space at the bottom of the stone shape to store the ring gate (with the rest consisting of solid stone); he can cast out of the ring gate easily enough, and nothing else can really affect him whilst he's inside the sphere, inside the dome, and physically (or not...) inside solid stone.

He'll figure out which one works the best some day prior, when his life isn't being threatened.


Shadow evocation does not exist. Contingency can be bypassed.Like I said; nerfs and bans.

And you can't really bypass a contingency if it's a self-buff (note that a contingency will trigger regardless of whether or not the wizard is aware of the action that triggered it; so long as the trigger occurs, the contingency activates). And even if you try the AMF, he can easily get around that, too.


All very clever tactics.Thanks. Anyone with a sky-high Int should be clever. Especially when they can literally rewrite reality on a whim.


Item to bypass both.If such an item exists, he can simply research a spell that allows him to bypass the item's effects.

Or, while he's tailing those who are planning to kill him (via scrying or doing it the old fashioned way, using some Knowledge/Gather Info/etc checks, using spells such as moment of prescience and by taking 10), he'll just pay off (or Diplomacize, or dominate, whatever it takes) whoever is making such items to 'add a little something special' to your items.

Part of being a wizard is knowing what's going on, and being all-but-omniscient. And if he knows you're coming, he's going to go on recon, guaranteed.


Neither plane exists in the cosmology; attempting to open a gate to either would be more risk than it's worth.Then some other nasty plane. The wizard should have a REALLY high Knowledge (The Planes) check, and would have some good ideas he'd tested out way in advance, if such was on his list of desired tactics.

Knowledge really DOES equal power, after all.


Ignore the spell.Nice argument.

Not.

Reverse gravity doesn't allow for SR, or a save. No allowances are made for flying creatures, either. The only way to avoid it is if you attach yourself to something.

Homebrew an item for it if you want; however, how much money are you spending on all of these things again?


Again, what one would expect from an intelligent wizard.'Tis the tip of the proverbial iceburg.


Where was this ruling made? I'd very much like to see it.Two places, actually.

One (from the SRD): "Natural Abilities
...Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

Two: In the MM V, the creatures with spellcasting have it listed as an Ex attack.

So, either way, since spellcasting isn't elsewhere marked as Su or Sp, you've got the choice between Natural Abilities (which you get), or Ex attacks (which you likewise get).


All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.Same function? What?

If you simply houserule something to the effect of, "You are immune to anything that a wizard can do," then of course you'll win. But that requires Rule 0 and nerfage, which I've already covered.


All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.Again, what?


Yes, but once again, they all rely on the same function. Ignored.Please explain. Otherwise you're simply brushing off things without even showing that you're considering their ramifications.


Alright, so the wizard has a boatload of toys that all enrich the same function. Ignored.He can continue to kick ass over and over and over all day long, and not even chew through his spell slots. This is important for those advocating wearing him down through conflict over the course of a whole day. And I haven't even touched things like scrolls/wands/staves yet.

It's important, even if you're ignoring it.


I don't disagree, but the only spells that matter in battle are those in the her and now.Except that you simply don't know what tricks are up his sleeves. Generally the best way to garner knowledge is through observation, and that's absolutely useless here, since he can change his entire build (essentially) every single day.

Not at all unimportant.


I am well aware of exactly how insane casters are at high levels, and I'm starting to find it more than a bit insulting that you give me so little credit.Considering your responses ("Ignored!" and "Unimportant!"), you shouldn't feel insulted whatsoever.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 08:47 PM
I'm fully aware that you get the supernatural abilities of creatures into which you shapechange, but I would like to see how you were able to infer that you get their spellcasting. You don't.

Spells do not have a tag because they don't need one, because they work in the same way as they would for a member of a character class. Are those extraordinary abilities?See my post above.

All abilities are A.) Natural, B.) Ex, C.) Su, and D.) Sp, (unless they're E.) Ps, and they ain't) and spellcasting can only be A or B, due to the way C and D work. And those spells grant you A and B.


Note that I'm neglecting the really badly-written entries where possesion of a vorpal sword is considered a supernatural ability (which was also really inconsistent, because magic items are not listed as having one of the three standard types either).Fair enough.


Also, the abilities you mentioned before can all be countered with homebrew abilities and character options. Do you have any combos which are not dependent on the same few spells?I do. Dozens of clones (hidden away all over the world, in secret vaults under the earth, or even in safe-deposit boxes at well-respected financial institutions); dozens of simulacrums (only some of which are of YOU; the rest can be things like high-powered demons, devils, and celestials, all of which retain their casting and Su abilities); trap the soul gems placed in the party's bags of holding/belt pouches/treasure hoards (note that the value of relatively cheap gems can be increased dramatically using fabricate and uber-high Craft checks) - any time one of you willingly touches a gem, your body and soul are sucked inside; traps of antimagic field placed over pits of acid/fire/spikes/monsters that require flight to overcome; Metamagicked-out-the-wazoo disintegrates; depending on the party's general alignment, being a well-loved public figure well-known for his work with hungry orphans (good luck escaping your wanted status as deranged criminals...all set up in advance, of course); lots of no-save-and-still-die spells, such as imprisonment; a Twinned/Split Ray'd/Empowered/Maximized enervation, followed by a Quickened/Empowered version of the same; etc, etc, etc.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 09:09 PM
Can't break the stone shape. It's being protected by the prismatic sphere. And you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because there's a dome of stone along its inner radius.

:smallconfused: Fine, then break the stone shape through the prismatic sphere, in the same way you would have stepped through it. Other than its explicit "I destroy everything" effect, prismatic sphere doesn't actually defend from most physical objects passing through, unless they're ranged or a breath weapon.


Ignoring a time stop is all well and good, except that if the wizard knows you can do that (and he will), he'll merely Quicken the stone shape instead.

He likely won't, since the same trick that you can use to get around his time stop also lets you dodge his finding out about said trick. Also, mind blank.


Like I said; nerfs and bans.

Shadow spells aren't being banned for their power or anything; they're banned because the voters told us "no Plane of Shadow." Contingency is not being nerfed; there is a new way to bypass it, but the spell itself has all the capabilities it ever did. More, actually, when programmed contingency joins the party.


And you can't really bypass a contingency if it's a self-buff (note that a contingency will trigger regardless of whether or not the wizard is aware of the action that triggered it; so long as the trigger occurs, the contingency activates). And even if you try the AMF, he can easily get around that, too.

Of course you can: have an ability that makes contingency ignore you and the things that you do.


Thanks. Anyone with a sky-high Int should be clever.

Are you trying to imply that you have a sky-high Int? :smallwink:


If such an item exists, he can simply research a spell that allows him to bypass the item's effects.

Ah, now that may not be so true.


Or, while he's tailing those who are planning to kill him (via scrying or doing it the old fashioned way, using some Knowledge/Gather Info/etc checks, using spells such as moment of prescience and by taking 10), he'll just pay off (or Diplomacize, or dominate, whatever it takes) whoever is making such items to 'add a little something special' to your items.

A good idea, but likely not an option...


Part of being a wizard is knowing what's going on, and being all-but-omniscient. And if he knows you're coming, he's going to go on recon, guaranteed.

Oh, of course, but dump a truck full of scorpions in anyone's mouth and they'll be a bit preoccupied.


Then some other nasty plane. The wizard should have a REALLY high Knowledge (The Planes) check, and would have some good ideas he'd tested out way in advance, if such was on his list of desired tactics.

There seriously are none. Discovering any plane outside the twin planes takes ludicrous Knowledge checks, and employing gate in such a fashion has terrible risks.


Nice argument.

Not.

Once again, you are completely ignoring the purpose of this thread in your quest to prove the superiority of wizards.


Homebrew an item for it if you want; however, how much money are you spending on all of these things again?

Oh, that's not an item.


One (from the SRD): "Natural Abilities
...Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

This argument is effectively specious. It's a cousin of rope trick, the drowning rule flaws and the question of being a very active dead guy. In other words, an essential flaw that assumes players will (correctly) interpret spells as spell-like.


Two: In the MM V, the creatures with spellcasting have it listed as an Ex attack.

Alright, I went 100 pages in and didn't spot a native spellcasting creature. Care to name one?


Same function? What?

Everything a wizard does boils down to one simple fact:

"This is a spell."

Whatever horrors a wizard intends to perpetrate, he does so via spell. If you can ignore a spell, you can ignore just about anything that a wizard can try on you. There are some distinct exceptions, may of which are decent tactical options in their own right.


If you simply houserule something to the effect of, "You are immune to anything that a wizard can do," then of course you'll win. But that requires Rule 0 and nerfage, which I've already covered.

Neither of which I am going to do.


Considering your responses ("Ignored!" and "Unimportant!"), you shouldn't feel insulted whatsoever.

Funny how that came off as an insult as well. :smallannoyed:

Lycanthromancer, do you actually intend to contribute to the goals of this thread, or are you simply here to cheerlead for the wizard and tell me I can't be rid of him unless I rocket him to godhood?

Tohron
2009-05-20, 09:12 PM
I wonder, does foresight work on someone inside an anti-magic field? Say, if a rogue is inside a personal anti-magic field and decides to stab his old chum Wizardly Wizardington, would Wizardly be able to perceive it?

Anyway, killing wizards is a simple as doing a bluff check. To fool the universe and its fat twin reality of your intent. After you've managed that, the wizard might as well lay down and die, because nothing, NOTHING will be able to save him.

Nobody else seems to have noticed this post, but that's a good point - although from the wording of the DC 100 Epic Bluff ability, it sounds like it would only fool thought detecting spells, not general divination spells like Foresight. However, if a character with Int 10 or lower used this ability, they could make themselves appear unconscious by lowering their apparent Int, thus (depending on how you interpret the ability) potentially altering divination outputs so that the Wizard does not detect them sneaking up. Once they are close enough, they activate a scroll of Gate to summon their Ubercharger companion, then their contingent Antimagic Field goes off. The Ubercharger then uses a readied action to charge the wizard and make them go splat.

So to do this, this guy needs to be able to make a DC 100 Bluff check, a DC 37 UMD check, and be able to beat a wizard's Spot and Listen modifiers with the usual buffs. His companion needs to be able to reliably kill a wizard without buffs in a single charge, without the use of magic items. Are there any problems with this plan? If not, how would you go about building these characters?

Haven
2009-05-20, 09:13 PM
Definitely Wizardbane...or more accurately, Wizard'Bane'. It's very appropriate considering we're trying to 'break' the wizard's dominance.

Now that's a scary thought, actually. Bane with magic?

Oh man...whatever this thread comes up with has to be called "the Bane build", because it's all about breaking Batman's back.

Enochi
2009-05-20, 09:19 PM
Was a thread awhile back called the Joker build which was designed to counter the batman...it failed if I remember correctly.

brujon
2009-05-20, 09:37 PM
Have a Half-Clay Golem Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. Make it so the Half-Clay template is added only after the barbarian received a mind-blank. That way, the wizard won't know that the template is received. Good. Now, he can't be scryed on, since he's immune to spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects. Now the only thing that can hurt him is earthquake, move earth, and disintegrate. Get him an item that A) Makes him immune to slow B) Makes him immune to the spell Disintegrate and C) Freedom of Movement. So now, the wizard can't blast him with ANYTHING. He's in fact, immune to anything the wizard throws at him the first round of combat (The surprise round). Now, get him a +12 initiative bonus item, and a buffed out spear, as well as a 100-feet emanation that blocks all teleport effects and can be supressed as a free action. I'll leave the details to you. Then, he rages and frenzies, charge the wizard, and wins.(If you don't want a charger, make him a grappler, either way, the wizard loses.)

(I'm away from books right now so i can't really make all the crunchy crunchy details, but with the WBL of the entire party, it can be done... The wizard will be like "WTF?!" when he sees that his spells don't even make a dent.)

Swordguy
2009-05-20, 09:53 PM
Hey guys, I've been thinking about this thread since I saw it, and on balance, I think people are going about this the wrong way. When the wizard can play his game (auto-win init, Time Stop, boom, drain, bam, etc) you've got no chance. I think we're all agreed to that. What we need to do is change the rules of the game at a fundamental level. No, not the mechanics, but the core assumptions underlying most of the discussion here.

This mission is actually closer to something out of Shadowrun than out of D&D. In SR, you're often presented with missions where you have to break into facilities what are labeled a "break-in proof" by corporations with better people, better equipment, and unlimited budgets - in short, every advantage. Yet you still have to do it. What we look for "play" in the facility's security setup. Locks have "play," a small amount of theoretically unnecessary movement. However, if you remove the play, the lock is so tight that it won't rotate at all, even for the legit key. This play is what allows lock picking to work.

Most systems have play. Without some play systems typically break down. You absolutely, positively need ID to enter the building? What happens when someone steals your ID? How can you get into the building to get a new ID issued? Heck, how can you get in in the first place to get the ID? Any motion in the yard triggers an alarm? What about squirrels and birds? Absolutely uncrackable safe that can only be opened by a password memorized by the company's CEO? What happens when the CEO gets run over by a truck?

Seek out the edge cases and determine where a system needs play to cope with the real world. Then arrange exactly those circumstances.

Coming back to the topic, where is the play in the wizard's "auto-win intitiative, and killinate you all without breaking a sweat" routine? The answer is easy - ALLOWING THE WIZARD TO ROLL INIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. We're all gamers, we have a basic assumption that when there's going to be combat of some sort, everyone starts off by rolling init. Even if there's a surprise round (which the wizard also auto-wins), there the opportunity to react to an attack. But this isn't necessarily the case. What we have to do is find a way to hit the wizard WITHOUT giving him even the opportunity to roll initiative.

If you can find a way (offhand, I'd suggest a stealthed sniper of some sort) to get ONE attack off without the wizard being aware of it until it actually hits (and activates all his contingencies), then you've got a chance. Then the question become how to manufacture the opportunity for the attack. Find a way to remove the wizard from his home turf, preferably. But the most important step is finding that first point of failure in the mechanics of the wizard's "I win" routine - and exploit it.

Unless, of course, the wizard has a contingency that goes off "whenever someone else takes an action that I want to interrupt" or similar. In which case it's hopeless.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 10:08 PM
This mission is actually closer to something out of Shadowrun than out of D&D. In SR, you're often presented with missions where you have to break into facilities what are labeled a "break-in proof" by corporations with better people, better equipment, and unlimited budgets - in short, every advantage. Yet you still have to do it. What we look for "play" in the facility's security setup. Locks have "play," a small amount of theoretically unnecessary movement. However, if you remove the play, the lock is so tight that it won't rotate at all, even for the legit key. This play is what allows lock picking to work.

Most systems have play. Without some play systems typically break down. You absolutely, positively need ID to enter the building? What happens when someone steals your ID? How can you get into the building to get a new ID issued? Heck, how can you get in in the first place to get the ID? Any motion in the yard triggers an alarm? What about squirrels and birds? Absolutely uncrackable safe that can only be opened by a password memorized by the company's CEO? What happens when the CEO gets run over by a truck?

Seek out the edge cases and determine where a system needs play to cope with the real world. Then arrange exactly those circumstances.

See, that's sort of where I'm going with this, except that what I'm looking for breaks down to:

• Given motion sensors, how can you move without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or bring your movement to a scale that the sensors must ignore to be of any practical value.

• Given heat sensors, how can you be present without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or change the threshold at which they detect and hide within it. Who's seen Sneakers? :D

• Given twenty-seven guards ambushing you with automatic rifles and impenetrable armor, how can you survive?
○○ Have impenetrable armor yourself, or hold the CEO hostage as a human shield, or bluff the guards, or be somewhere else and have that be a decoy.

In other words, it's not "what are you capable of doing now," it's "what would you need to be able to do."

Swordguy
2009-05-20, 10:17 PM
See, that's sort of where I'm going with this, except that what I'm looking for breaks down to:

• Given motion sensors, how can you move without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or bring your movement to a scale that the sensors must ignore to be of any practical value.

• Given heat sensors, how can you be present without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or change the threshold at which they detect and hide within it. Who's seen Sneakers? :D

• Given twenty-seven guards ambushing you with automatic rifles and impenetrable armor, how can you survive?
○○ Have impenetrable armor yourself, or hold the CEO hostage as a human shield, or bluff the guards, or be somewhere else and have that be a decoy.

In other words, it's not "what are you capable of doing now," it's "what would you need to be able to do."

See, that's the thing - regarding this problem, I don't know. I've gone out of my way to play 3.x in the way it was intended to be played, and never played the overoptimization game. What I'm trying to do with my post is break the mental logjam in this thread by pointing out conceptually what people should be looking to do, which has everything to do with how you think, and not the details of the mechanics.

Then, once we know where to look and how to think, the people who get some sort of sexual thrill out of breaking games and making DM's miserable can take care of the nitty-gritty "how do make the mechanics give us the desired result" part. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 10:29 PM
See, that's the thing - regarding this problem, I don't know. I've gone out of my way to play 3.x in the way it was intended to be played, and never played the overoptimization game. What I'm trying to do with my post is break the mental logjam in this thread by pointing out conceptually what people should be looking to do, which has everything to do with how you think, and not the details of the mechanics.

That's entirely fair. I'm not asking about mechanics, after all. I am asking about process.

The_Werebear
2009-05-20, 10:37 PM
Heh. I am a bit ashamed of myself. You're putting all this effort into remaking the system. I just threw up my hands and shifted to playing E6.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 10:42 PM
No such thing; merely trying to add extra options for the guys that never *actually* get any.

The setting should be both fairly compatible and also scary as all Hells with E6.

Y'nokhs
2009-05-20, 10:43 PM
I think swordguy is right, the key is to go for a one-hit kill. This of course requires some sort of way to fool the wizard's scrying (localized antimagic field?) so you can set up a plan. Where exactly is this wizard? If he's in a tower or any such exposed place, I'd go for a snipe. Antimatter rifle would be best (hey, it's in the DMG! Its core (maybe)!) If not, you need something huge. Something epic. Something like...a catapult filled with dynamite? Beacons that can encase an area in an antimagic field? An artifact that produces a divine shield? Barring something like that, I can only see using a ridiculous amount of magic items. The base ones would probably be: Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity, Rod of Epic Absorption, Armor of Great Reflection, Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, Cloak of Epic Resistance, etc.
You did say they had a big budget :smallamused:

The_Werebear
2009-05-20, 10:45 PM
I did a big E6 campaign recently, and it worked well enough because there was a severe discrepancy in how squishy the wizard compared to a fighter, and the fact that they didn't have enough spell slots to answer every problem....


Come to think of it, that's something else. It needs to be feasible to grind down a wizard and force them to fight without resting. It goes along with reducing their escape methods, but probably even further to addressing the issue of the 15 minute adventuring day. Maybe needing a certain amount of time before you can begin to rest to restock spells.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 10:46 PM
Their budget wouldn't let them have even one of those.

And I'm not looking for the one-hit kill; I'm looking for how to contest the wizard.

Y'nokhs
2009-05-20, 11:11 PM
And I'm not looking for the one-hit kill; I'm looking for how to contest the wizard.

I know. My opinion is that if the wizard can react to anything, can pull out a super-combo in the first rounds of combat, then the only way to "contest" him is to beat him without giving him the opportunity to react, or even teleport away. That's why being able to act without his knowledge is key. This is hard, yes, but it seems the only way to win without homebrewing a bunch of items, houserules and PrC's for the express purpose of taking out a 20th level wizard. Like it or not, straight-up combat is going to get you killed. Do something unexpected. Collapse his lair with explosives. Have the rouge or spellthief hide in a golem, protected from magic, and then pop out for sneak attack goodness. Get a ring of wishes or a creature that can use it and strip away his magical abilities (I wish the wizard known as X would not be able to cast arcane spells at any point in time from this moment forward) Even if it gets twisted to give him 20 cleric levels or such, its better than facing a tricked-out wizard. Be creative

Darmont
2009-05-20, 11:22 PM
I have 2 simple ways of beating the Wizard, just need a rogue with maxed UMD and a ring of 3 wishes.

First wish is I wish all the wizard's name goes here spell books were erased.
Second wish is I wish the wizard forgot all his spells.
Third wish is I wish the Wizard was 3 feet in front of me and my group.

The second way is having a Silver Dragon Cohort, or having a Paladin with the feat, I forget what the feat was, where he can get a Dragon mount and confront the wizard then.

The third is more complicated involving everyone have UMD as a class skill and then 2 people using wands to counter and 3 people casting Disjunction from scrolls.

DragoonWraith
2009-05-20, 11:24 PM
So I was reading another thread, and it suggested that a great plot-hook is to have the villains attempt to initiate some game-breaking cheese, and have the players recognize it and try to prevent the villain from succeeding. You could turn this on its head - instead of simply DM-fiating away Wizard powers, give the heroes a way to eliminate or withstand those powers by earning it - and give the Wizard the opportunity to try and stop them. Let the players earn those Wizard-nerfs.

Provide artifacts or magical shrines or temples to gods that can be used to weaken the Wizard from afar. Like doing a quest for a god to get that god to agree to withhold his minions from the Wizard's summonings. Some god with enough influence in the pantheon to get the rest to agree to it. Or an artifact that allows you to follow anyone who teleports, allowing you to keep hounding the Wizard. Etc etc. This leads to two things - do enough quests and you can hunt down the Wizard and stand a chance, because you've eliminated enough of his power. Alternatively, the Wizard realizes what is going on, and decides he needs to eliminate this threat immediately. This means the Wizard attacks the players - eliminating some of his home-turf benefits, for one thing. For another, they don't need to kill him at that point - if they can survive long enough that he's forced to teleport out, they're free to continue questing. At some point, it becomes a losing proposition for the Wizard - he's running out of his most powerful abilities, and the players can press their advantage. This allows for a "fight" that is not a matter of "who goes first?" that you presumably want to avoid.

You'd have to be careful about it, though. If the Wizard attacks immediately and pulls out all the stops, they haven't done anything yet that can protect them from him. I think exactly what the Wizard is told may have a lot to do with it. If the gods tell him "those folks over there have been charged with your destruction," he may ignore them if they don't appear to be actively pursuing that goal. If on the other hand, the gods say "they are currently working towards your demise", he may be able to figure where they're going with it and nip them in the bud.

But most of the "Wizard can't be beaten" players assume the Wizard is fighting defensively. Certainly not because he has to, but it's just the default assumption. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that yes, that's exactly what a Wizard would do. He'd wait for them to come to him, because he has better things to do and besides, the chance of them posing any threat is minimal.

afroakuma
2009-05-20, 11:26 PM
I know. My opinion is that if the wizard can react to anything, can pull out a super-combo in the first rounds of combat, then the only way to "contest" him is to beat him without giving him the opportunity to react, or even teleport away. That's why being able to act without his knowledge is key.

Practically impossible, though. And not necessarily even viable. I have a wizard BBEG who lives for people to try this, because it cannot work on said BBEG.


This is hard, yes, but it seems the only way to win without homebrewing a bunch of items, houserules and PrC's for the express purpose of taking out a 20th level wizard. Like it or not, straight-up combat is going to get you killed.

As I've mentioned, it takes fewer than one might think. One effect to avoid contingency, one effect that allows you to ignore a certain number of spells, one effect to stop the wizard from getting away/yank the wizard back, one effect to deny freedom of movement and, for the grand finale, something to grab the wizard's soul and prevent his clones, if any, from activating.


Have the rouge

No. Full stop. You lose right here and now.

There is no such class. I don't care how red one is in France, that is not the title of any known base class. I don't care if one is a makeup spokesperson, that is not a class available to either PCs or NPCs.

Darmont
2009-05-20, 11:36 PM
If it is allowed, you could fill portable holes with gun powder, and set the kegs of the gun powder against the wizard's tower and stand back with a bow of fire arrows and hit an open keg with one of said arrows. Watch the tower blow up. :-)

Y'nokhs
2009-05-20, 11:43 PM
No. Full stop. You lose right here and now.

There is no such class. I don't care how red one is in France, that is not the title of any known base class. I don't care if one is a makeup spokesperson, that is not a class available to either PCs or NPCs.

What!? You have not heard of the ultimate french weapon, the rouge? A cosmetic so deadly it can cause instant surrender with no save? It's from Frenchies and Frogs: the Complete Guide to all things France, alongside such items as the Baguette of Smiting Uncultured, the Beret of Superiority Armor, and the Pretentious Painting of Pointed Particularity.

In other news, aI is badd speeller

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-20, 11:53 PM
I hate to say this, but giving 'immunity to spellcasting' as part of a homebrewed class (PrC or otherwise) is part and parcel of the 'nerfs and bans' thing.

And as I said, if you Rule 0 that the wizard can't win, the players can't lose regardless, thereby making the point null and void.

If you want something homebrewed to take out the wizard, just make a feat that says "I win," and there you are.

It's Super-Effective!

[edit] To make my point more clear, it'd be better if you went inside the rules to overcome casters, rather than making up rules to destroy casters.

Otherwise, it's arbitrary and a rather pointless exercise.

Clever use of the rules is good, but you can't simultaneously say that you don't want to overhaul the system and still overhaul the system at the same time.

Radar
2009-05-21, 02:27 AM
Apart from Shrink Item cheese, there are other bad things, that can get you, if you activate AMF.

Suppose, that the floor is only held together by some permanent force effect (Tenser Discs over a paper sheet or something). When you activate AMF, the floor collapses and you fall into an acid/poison vat with spikes and some other goodies inside. Or a ceilling held only by a reverse gravity spell.

AMF triggered collapsable rooms are just one type of traps that can be invented. It also has to be bypassed without Disable Device, because there is no device to dismantle.

So if AMF is to be used against the wizard, there has to be a way to overcome serious nonmagical threats as well. A way to non-magically ignore high amounts of damage would be helpfull.

Learnedguy
2009-05-21, 02:41 AM
In a battle to beat the wizard, it's all about information. And unfortunately, the Wizard got a bit of leg up at that aspect (as in, he'll know everything he needs to know ever by waving his hands a little bit).

So what do you do?

Well you convince him that all he knows is in fact wrong:smallwink:

Sense motive isn't a class skill for him. Bluff might be for you. Do the math.

"I'm detecting your thoughts mister Roguy Bringstabbity! They tell me that you plan to kill me!"

"Kill you? Hah, that's a laugh. When I think kill you see, I'm actually thinking about birthday parties! Speaking of which, how about you take a bite from this simply delicious arsenic cake?!"

"But my foresight tells me that I'll die if I do that!"

"Wizardly Wizardington, have I ever lied to you before?"

Frankly, the only way to beat a wizard is to make him beat himself:smallconfused:

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 04:55 AM
I hate to say this, but giving 'immunity to spellcasting' as part of a homebrewed class (PrC or otherwise) is part and parcel of the 'nerfs and bans' thing.

And as I said, if you Rule 0 that the wizard can't win, the players can't lose regardless, thereby making the point null and void.

If you want something homebrewed to take out the wizard, just make a feat that says "I win," and there you are.

It's Super-Effective!

[edit] To make my point more clear, it'd be better if you went inside the rules to overcome casters, rather than making up rules to destroy casters.

Otherwise, it's arbitrary and a rather pointless exercise.

Clever use of the rules is good, but you can't simultaneously say that you don't want to overhaul the system and still overhaul the system at the same time.

Except that we aren't handing out "Immunity to Spellcasting"

We're trying to hand out abilities that get around the most effective wizard defences, making a batman wizard or BBEG wizard into a major challenge, rather than an insurmountable one.

Characters who are 'transparent' to certain spells (but not all). Rituals that can prevent the wizard polymorphing into something else. Selective anti-magic such as Temporal Repair from Dragon magazine (auto-dispels Time Stop, Haste, Celerity and other spells that mess around with the time stream). Ways of preventing the target being resurrected (which I believe afro has already handled).

How would you allow a wizard BBEG in your own games to be defeated by four martial characters without having the wizard hold back (beyond avoiding a small selection of spells that make no sense in the campaign setting?

Are you honestly saying you just wouldn't use a wizard as BBEG? Or that you would ban Conjuration, Necromancy and Transmutation?

I have my own ideas on how to fix the wizard by making the class weaker, and at some point I will try to share them.

Tehnar
2009-05-21, 06:21 AM
What I was thinking when I said feat that allows a character to dispel/disable effects such as the wall of force; I was thinking more in the lines of angry barbarian trapped inside a force cage, hits the cage with his club, and grins as the force cage is destroyed. Or hits a prismatic shell 9 times and it is destroyed.

Also a lot of the best ways to fight spellcasters are spells. Why not make feats/class features that mimic those spells in some fashion? There is a nifty spell that deals damage (and a lot of damage) to a creature depending on the amount of active spell effects it has on its person. Perhaps add a feat that melee strikes deal extra damage to creatures with spell effects on them.

And to be on the safe side ban the dire tortoise. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2009-05-21, 08:17 AM
A few random thoughts ...

Wizards get their power from a couple of different sources. Spells, items, and the requirements needed in order to use both. Hitting the Wizard with negative levels, or enough INT penalties and drains, would prevent them from casting their nastiest spells.

Why are diplomacy, bluffing, and guile out altogether? Even a high-level Wizard has some motivation, even if it's just self-interest or desire for more spells. Otherwise, why does anybody even know he exists? An explicitly 100% paranoid Wizard would never leave his demiplane, and nobody in the rest of the multiverse would care if he has 75 9th-level spell slots. The Wizard cares about something; whatever that something is, can and should be part of any strategy you come up with to defeat him.

Gaiyamato
2009-05-21, 08:18 AM
If you had a spellcaster you could go:

Sorcerer 5 > Dread Witch 4 > Nightmare spinner 5 > Paladin of Mystra 4 > Church Inquisitor 2

As an idea. :P
Dread witch 4 lets fear spells and effects work on even those who are immune to them and Nightmare spinner 5 lets you target the wizard with an ability that forces him to make a check aganist fear or die.
Failing that you also had a good deal of protection etc.

But that gives you a CL of 17 with the sorcerer and 4 with the paladin (with a nice little feat you can add your paladin levels to your sorcerer/wizard levels for CL) and a Spell progression of 14 levels for the sorcerer.
That's all I can work off the top of my head.

But the OP states no caster level above 5th, which rules that idea out.
So you need a pretty magic savvy fighter.

What about races. Is there any limit on alignment or races??

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 08:21 AM
I hate to say this

No you don't.

I don't know what you want here. Honestly. Do you want me to just roll over and say "you're right" and then you'll leave us alone to brainstorm?

Do you want me to just give up entirely? Because I'm not going to. Everything I've done so far has gotten fair to excellent peer reviews.


but giving 'immunity to spellcasting' as part of a homebrewed class (PrC or otherwise) is part and parcel of the 'nerfs and bans' thing.

...which, again, is explicitly not what I'm going to do.

What I am attempting to address is the fact that, as you say, wizards can do it all and can do it better than those who are supposed to. Having a high-level fighter be able to bash through solid walls is not unbalancing, because an 11th-level wizard can do it (disintegrate). Having a high-level rogue be able to take a high bonus to any skill check a number of times per day is not unbalancing, because a 15th-level wizard can do it (moment of prescience).

But what I am doing is different than handing spells to others, because they work in a different fashion. How does a wizard hurt three guys packed together at close range? Burning hands. How does a fighter do it? Takes his axe and swings it in an arc big enough to hit three guys.

These are not "spells," nor "powers," but combat options and feats that still have to be applied tactically and judiciously.


And as I said, if you Rule 0 that the wizard can't win, the players can't lose regardless, thereby making the point null and void.

Which, yet again, I am not doing. If you want to put it in terms of Rule 0, then I am Rule 0'ing it that a wizard can't win with a snap of his fingers. That paladin that you just held is now breathing down your neck. The monk you thought was time stopped just punched you nine times in the face. That ranger is shooting arrows at you - why aren't your contingencies firing?

You yourself said that these would be an infinitesimally small portion of what a wizard is capable of. I am by no means fiating the wizard to death.


If you want something homebrewed to take out the wizard, just make a feat that says "I win," and there you are.

It's Super-Effective!

And this is what I mean by being negative. You do not want to contribute, and you apparently don't want us doing likewise. You refuse to accept anything other than the two extremes of "wizard must always win" or "wizard only loses 'cause you said he had to."


[edit] To make my point more clear, it'd be better if you went inside the rules to overcome casters, rather than making up rules to destroy casters.

Which, as you yourself have pointed out, cannot be done. So why would I waste my time?


Otherwise, it's arbitrary and a rather pointless exercise.

No, I think it's pretty clear that arguing with you about this is the pointless exercise. You're not going to see my perspective, I really don't understand yours, and it's detracting from things I could otherwise be doing.

Gaiyamato
2009-05-21, 08:50 AM
Idea! Conan the Barbarian could do it!!!

:)

I'm serious. Go and read TQBII. Handy dandy book.

But as I asked before, what about races and alignments?
There are ways to get a non-standard race non-spellcaster chaotic evil barbarian with an SR of over 40. lol.

That would make the wizard's day I bet. ;)

Tohron
2009-05-21, 09:16 AM
As I suggested earlier, there's an interpretation of the DC 100 Epic Bluff ability that allows someone with Int 10 or lower to make themselves appear unconscious to spell effects, since the ability allows you to alter your apparent Int score by 10 or fewer points this could allow him to bypass the wizard's user protections, since divinations would detect him as being incapable of what he plans to do.

Once they make the check, they just need to sneak up on the wizard, and once they are close enough, activate a scroll of Gate to summon their Ubercharger companion, then their contingent Antimagic Field goes off. The Ubercharger then uses a readied action to charge the wizard and make them go splat.

The requirements are a DC 100 Bluff check, a DC 37 UMD check, and the ability to beat a wizard's Spot and Listen modifiers with the usual buffs. His companion needs to be able to reliably kill a wizard without buffs in a single charge, without the use of magic items.

To make the bluff check, he can get +46 from skill ranks and Item Familiar, +11 from Charisma, +5 from Skill Focus(Bluff), and Persuasive, +40 from Glibness (Bard 3) and Improvisation (Bard 5, both purchased), allowing him to make the check on a 1. With Skill Focus(UMD), he can also make the UMD check on a 1. I'm not sure what all they'd need to do to make successful Hide and Move Silently check, what would they need to beat?

So, would this build work?

Gaiyamato
2009-05-21, 09:16 AM
I've got it!

6 of these:
Halfling Monk 2/Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 2/Scout 2/Ninja 2/Swordsage 1/Shadowdancer 10

With these feats:
Vow of Poverty
Improved Initiative
Yondalla's Sense
Lunatic Insight
Daring Outlaw
Swift Ambusher
Ascetic Stalker
Ascetic Rogue
Improved Skirmish
Fists of Iron
Swarmfighting
Superior Unarmed Strike

maybe also:
throat punch
head shot

and some other stuff!

The Glyphstone
2009-05-21, 09:22 AM
Idea! Conan the Barbarian could do it!!!

:)

I'm serious. Go and read TQBII. Handy dandy book.

But as I asked before, what about races and alignments?
There are ways to get a non-standard race non-spellcaster chaotic evil barbarian with an SR of over 40. lol.

That would make the wizard's day I bet. ;)

It will, actually, since most of a wizard's nastiest weapons are SR: No. Afro needs ways to negate said weapons.

Gaiyamato
2009-05-21, 09:26 AM
See my last post then. :)

Halfling ninja's of doom. lol.

Just one hit with head shot and he cannot cast spells for a round.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-21, 09:38 AM
How will your VoP character fly? You can bet the wizard will if he's out and about.

Telonius
2009-05-21, 09:44 AM
While I would really like that to work, it doesn't. If it did, there would be no problem even with a VoP Monk20.

There are several reasons why.
- You have to actually get up to the Wizard to deliver the hit. Vow of Poverty means you can't. One fly spell, and the wizard can park himself 100 feet up and be impervious to any assault.
- If the Wizard knows a bunch of Monks are coming, it will have polymorphed into something that is immune to critical hits. No stunning fist = sad monks.
- How are you fitting 12 feats into that build? VoP only allows bonus Exalted Feats, not bonus regular Feats.
- Unless you're using fractional BAB, that is going to have a pretty low attack bonus.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 10:34 AM
As I suggested earlier, there's an interpretation of the DC 100 Epic Bluff ability that allows someone with Int 10 or lower to make themselves appear unconscious to spell effects, since the ability allows you to alter your apparent Int score by 10 or fewer points this could allow him to bypass the wizard's user protections, since divinations would detect him as being incapable of what he plans to do.


You know, I'm liking this Epic Bluff idea more and more. Is it a standard thing for uber-wizards to be contingencied against poisons? Especially when you can keep up said epic bluff to fool divinations?

I'm thinking abuse the hell out of this bluff check. Teleport to his demi-plane as a pizza delivery guy, bluff wizard into thinking you're legit, hand him poisoned pizza. Done. I mean, with a bluff check of 100, you're convincing GODS that you aren't really you. This doesn't seem that difficult by comparison. There's no illusions involved for True Seeing to pick up, or an initiative score for the wizard to auto-win. Just you vs. the Wizard's Sense Motive...

...and I don't know a lot of Wizards who pump Wisdom.

Sure, there's no fireworks, but why does there need to be? Just like in Shadowrun, the best run is the one where you never have to use your guns.

Twilight Jack
2009-05-21, 11:12 AM
The biggest problem with this exercise is the assumption that the wizard knows everything he needs to know in order to mulch your party. He knows you're coming. He knows who you are. He's got all the stinky, stinky gruyere associated with wizards and is assumed to have enough intel on the party of non-casters who want him dead to use it all at optimum effectiveness.

Best bet I see is for the party to pack a metric f***tonne of protective items and free action toggle on/off AMF and to include at least one Lion Totem Barbarian (two is better, to get around Abrupt Jaunt 1/round). Take what precautions are necessary to ensure that both Barbarians survive the initial onslaught (since we're assuming that this wizard spends all his free time as a Dire Tortoise), then have them both charge and attempt to initiate a grapple. Since a grapple check is an attack, not a standard action, both these boys will get their full attack actions worth of grappling on the initial charge. The rest of the party (made up of Rogues, if you please) will delay their action until the barbarians have gone.

The barbarians charge the wizard, who Abrupt Jaunts away from the first, but not the second. He grapples the wizard with his first attack, pins with his second (using the "you can't speak" option), and does damage with all subsequent attacks. The rogues then move in and stab the pinned wizard to death with sneak attacks.

Employ AMFs to prevent contingencies based upon grappling from ever firing off.

Of course, the wiz-if-ever-a-wiz-there-was probably knows that this is the plan, so has put together multiple contingencies based upon the AMF and the mere presence of a Lion Totem Barbarian coming within 30' of him. So the party is still screwed under the terms of this engagement.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 11:35 AM
Hmmm...other out-of-the-box thinking...

Okay, so make sure to have a Paladin in the party. Here's the thinking. The Paladin is LG, and is required to punch-out the wizard. Since the Paladin can't knowingly commit an evil act, and the OP said nothing about Paladins either falling from this or not being able to do the mission, that means the Wizard has to be evil by default - if the Wizard was good, the Paladin would fall or not be able to be part of the mission.

Thusly, give the Paladin a Necklace of Prayer Beads (String of Prayer Beads, I think it is, in 3e). Use the Bead of Summons...you get an avatar of your God to aid you for a day. Explain your quest and problem, point out that you as a Paladin have absolutely no way to deal with this incredibly powerful evil, and ask for help. Part of being a servant of a good-aligned god is being humble - and knowing when you're legitimately overmatched and asking for divine assistance is a mark of a hero. Ideally, ask for the wizard's personal demi-plane to get wiped, but really, even if you just get a couple of Solars for help, it goes a LONG way toward evening the odds. Sure, we've left the realm of "what can we do via RAW mechanics" and thrown it squarely back into the lap of the DM...but I can't think of a single DM worth his screen out there who, when presented of the image of an HONESTLY penitent Paladin who's done so much to aid the forces of good in the world (assumed, since it's a Pal20 here) asking for the help of his god wouldn't do SOMETHING pretty major to assist the character.

And if the god him/herself happens to get involved (which, frankly, isn't out of the question given the magnitude of the quest and the fact it's a Pal20 asking for help), well...

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 12:28 PM
Hmmm...other out-of-the-box thinking...

Okay, so make sure to have a Paladin in the party. Here's the thinking. The Paladin is LG, and is required to punch-out the wizard. Since the Paladin can't knowingly commit an evil act, and the OP said nothing about Paladins either falling from this or not being able to do the mission, that means the Wizard has to be evil by default - if the Wizard was good, the Paladin would fall or not be able to be part of the mission.

Thusly, give the Paladin a Necklace of Prayer Beads (String of Prayer Beads, I think it is, in 3e). Use the Bead of Summons...you get an avatar of your God to aid you for a day. Explain your quest and problem, point out that you as a Paladin have absolutely no way to deal with this incredibly powerful evil, and ask for help. Part of being a servant of a good-aligned god is being humble - and knowing when you're legitimately overmatched and asking for divine assistance is a mark of a hero. Ideally, ask for the wizard's personal demi-plane to get wiped, but really, even if you just get a couple of Solars for help, it goes a LONG way toward evening the odds. Sure, we've left the realm of "what can we do via RAW mechanics" and thrown it squarely back into the lap of the DM...but I can't think of a single DM worth his screen out there who, when presented of the image of an HONESTLY penitent Paladin who's done so much to aid the forces of good in the world (assumed, since it's a Pal20 here) asking for the help of his god wouldn't do SOMETHING pretty major to assist the character.

And if the god him/herself happens to get involved (which, frankly, isn't out of the question given the magnitude of the quest and the fact it's a Pal20 asking for help), well...

Nicely done. Let's see Batman wriggle out of that one...

It may qualify as using casters against the wizard though. I'm pretty sure it also makes less sense in the campaign setting, although the Friendly Neighbourhood Overgod tends to get annoyed when wizards start tampering with the natural order (e.g. Genesis abuse)

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 12:40 PM
It may qualify as using casters against the wizard though.

Since you're making something else that's more powerful than you do the job - yeah.


I'm pretty sure it also makes less sense in the campaign setting, although the Friendly Neighbourhood Overgod tends to get annoyed when wizards start tampering with the natural order (e.g. Genesis abuse)

It makes no sense in the campaign setting, since with very few exceptions the gods don't actually exist, and those that do won't cross the line.

Genesis is a physical impossibility in the setting, unless you leave the planes to do it, which requires a very difficult gate spell out and in virtually all circumstances no way back in.

Keld Denar
2009-05-21, 01:18 PM
I'm sorry, I like my cleric idea. Contingency Battlemagic Perception? Thats awesomesause. It should work!

Really, without magic, you have nothing to disable the wizards contingencies, since immediate actions happen immediately prior to any actions that would trigger them. Try to AMF the wizard? Contingency teleport triggers. Try to Disjoin the wizard? Contingency teleport triggers. Try to HIT the wizard? Contingency teleport triggers.

Maybe if you had an ability that functioned something like the Psionic Trace Teleport power that you could use to follow the wizard like the bad guys did with Jump scars in the movie Jumper. Still, that only counters a small part of his defenses.

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 01:27 PM
Really, without magic, you have nothing to disable the wizards contingencies, since immediate actions happen immediately prior to any actions that would trigger them.

Yes; what I've been looking at is a static ability that makes you and your actions unreadable by contingency. As well as a spell that, in addition to not triggering contingency nor being in any way a valid trigger for same, suppresses contingency while active.

Of course, I'm also giving wizards a better contingency to play with, so I think it evens out.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 01:55 PM
Since you're making something else that's more powerful than you do the job - yeah.

I'm afraid you misunderstand. I'm not saying the god does all the work. But asking your god to even the playing field by stripping away the wizard's buffs and contingencies? That just evens the playing field. Moreover, you aren't a spellcaster yourself as a Paladin (since the OP specified partial caster of 5th level spells or less are fine) and the God isn't casting spells, it's using its various divine abilities (I can't recall the name of the ability - alter reality or something.). You and your buddies are still doing the work, and still have to actually get there and stomp on the wizard...but with no buffs or contingencies immediately available you've got a chance if you nail him quickly or otherwise keep him from escaping.

I swear I've read the whole thread, but I've missed the campaign setting. Are there no gods in your setting? Homebrew? 'Cause I can't think of a WotC 3e setting where the gods would flat-out ignore a request like this...especially when the gods set the whole thing up in the first place. It's hard to say there's no gods when they're mentioned in the OP...


EDIT: Oh, and the epic bluff delivery of poisoned pizza hasn't been disproven yet.

Thorcrest
2009-05-21, 02:34 PM
I must say I like the epic bluff idea... provided that the Pcs can get to the wizard, as he will think they are trying to kill him and defend himself accordingly. Also, earlier it was mentioned that being immune to spellcasting is rule breaking, this is a lie. Check the Magister, It's in complete divine I believe, and it clearly says he is immune to all magic for seven months, then he loses one school for the immunity, this continues for all immunities, but he still has a 44% chance of the spell not effecting him, fair odds, on top of that, he can redirect any spells cast at him back to the caster or any third party of his choice as long as he is immune or the spell passes his 44% check, lets see how the wizard deals with that. (this class is recommended that the PC becomes an NPC, it is that powerful)

I suppose he would shape change and force you to fight him, but thats better than bam you die.

Problem: he might know you have this and flee forever until he can get around your immunity, or build an army of clones. Speaking of clones his clones must NOT be DESTROYED. This seems strange, but if he has some then he can never be killed until they are all destroyed, but if you destroyed them he could make more, therefore you have to booby trap them without the wizard knowing, bam Epic Bluff (lie to the wizard through your thoughts) Hard to think that would fool him, but worth a shot, anyways you need to trap all his clones to die when they have him enter, or else he will never die, and he can't KNOW the clones are trapped or he will just make new ones.

Thats my thoughts on this currently, Hopefully it helps.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 02:50 PM
Point of order: can Celerity interrupt a held action? As in, the PCs have held actions set to go off immediately once they teleport? Offhand, I'd have the held actions go off, and then initiative would get rolled (meaning the wizard's Celerity can go off).

Point of order the 2nd: There used to be a maximum limit to the number of Contingencies a person could have active on them at any one time, and a hard limit to their power (they had to have a very specific trigger AND not reference the metagame whatsoever - so a Contingency for "whenever someone makes an offensive action against me" wouldn't qualify, and neither would "whenever I lose initiative", since the concept of initiative is a meta concept). Are these limitations still in effect? Because if not, then I think it really is impossible, because the wizard can have an infinite number of contingencies for every possible theoretical situation. You can find yourself in a situation where the wizard literally has a contingent spell for every action you can theoretically take. Clarification, thusly, is needed.

EDIT: Never mind - IRA idjit.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 05:58 PM
Okay, okay. I might as well be useful here. I admit I haven't exactly been particularly so in my previous posts, and I apologize.

My suggestions are:

Everyone needs as many stackable miss-chances as possible (and make sure at least one is full-concealment that cannot be overcome via something like true seeing. Full concealment means he can't directly target you. At all. He can fire into your space, and use AoE attacks (granted, this still leaves you open, but not to nearly as many effects). I suggest a permanent item of greater concealing amorpha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm), one of improved invisibility (along with nondetection and a high Hide score), and one of greater blink.

Sky-high skills, especially in Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, Diplomacy, and similar. Supplementing them with feats such as Darkstalker (from Lords of Madness) will help.

I suggest high SR, if only as an extra layer of protection against the things he can throw at you.

A high touch AC will help, though the aforementioned miss-chances and immunities are better.

Access to shapechanging yourself will help considerably. I suggest a psychoactive skin of proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalitems.htm#skinofProteus), the Assume Supernatural Ability feat (excellent if you can find one you'll use often, such as the antimagic cone from a beholder, or greater invisibility from a pixie), at least one level in a manifesting class (psion or psychic warrior, for preference), and Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) (as well as Practiced Manifester, if need be, to allow you to qualify for the MT feat).

Having the ability to change shape at will, conjoined with clever uses for your various forms, should really help your ability to get close to the wizard and take him out PDQ. The ability to turn into an object (along with various means of remaining undetectable) should help you considerably. Turning into a Diminutive-sized object and getting into his space (preferably if he voluntarily picks you up himself) should help you when you immediately activate an antimagic effect and get the drop on him. It'll also grant you a number of immunities you might not otherwise find easy to get.

Masquerade as a powerful (intelligent) magic item with things the wizard might find useful, especially against the assassins he knows are coming. Plant false information about this powerful item (such as: "It was once a man, who was cursed into a magic item, which is why, if you'll be so kind as to cast true seeing, will show you the man he used to be"), and have one of the party members (with a sky-high Disguise and Bluff score) offer to sell it to him, etc.

If you can trick him into getting you close to him of his own volition, you won't NEED to work at getting past his other defenses. From there, it'll be relatively easy to take him out when the time is right.

Thorcrest
2009-05-21, 06:47 PM
Lycanthromancer makes an interesting point in the above post, now all he needs to do is come up with a way to beat the wizard on his own terms:smallbiggrin:

This should be fun!:smallwink:

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 06:55 PM
Perhaps have one character do the Bluff thing, one do the Disguise-as-object thing, and have all of the party members (including the first two) specialize in stabbity-death-for-spellcasters.

Have the character Disguised as the item pack along some way to pull in the other three (a ring gate would work, if the other three were Small sized or smaller, or could wildshape/shapeshift/etc into something minuscule.

Have the metamorphosis'd character pack along a few objects that will make the sword/amulet/whatever give the spellcaster some good effects while it's nearby (but not necessarily worn).

When the wizard is asleep/distracted/otherwise busy, have the Disguised character turn into something nasty and immediately nullify the wizard (especially good if you can get in his space prior to AMF'ing him, or something, so he can't shield himself properly; check out this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988) for ideas), then pull in the others via Ring Gate, or whatever, and immediately go on the offensive to slaughter him in the first round.

Mission (possibly) accomplished.

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 07:09 PM
Everyone needs as many stackable miss-chances as possible (and make sure at least one is full-concealment that cannot be overcome via something like true seeing. Full concealment means he can't directly target you. At all. He can fire into your space, and use AoE attacks (granted, this still leaves you open, but not to nearly as many effects).

A very good suggestion, and one that I've had covered on a few bases.


Sky-high skills, especially in Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, Diplomacy, and similar. Supplementing them with feats such as Darkstalker (from Lords of Madness) will help.

They certainly never hurt; the ranger acquires abilities to hunt down things that hide from conventional senses, and a basic spell is available to beat simple magic defenses in the short term.


I suggest high SR, if only as an extra layer of protection against the things he can throw at you.

That's a given. :smallwink:


A high touch AC will help, though the aforementioned miss-chances and immunities are better.

Yes, but anything that offers extra insurance against enervation and disintegrate is worth it.


Access to shapechanging yourself will help considerably.

That's an escalation I would prefer to avoid. Shapechange is bad enough as it is without sharing with the rest of the class(es).

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 07:23 PM
Note that a skin of proteus only allows you to use metamorphosis (essentially a 4th level spell), at manifester level 7, which gives you inanimate objects and creatures up to 7 HD, but no more, and it requires a standard action to change. You do get healing out of it (equal to one night's rest), but for 84k, you should get some nice perks.

In any case, it'd help them level the playing field without actually casting spells themselves. :smalltongue:

In any case, it was just a suggested course of action (and it is quite effective if you can get Mr. Wizard to fall for it - easy with an insane Bluff check or two).

[edit] How about classes such as the wildshaping monk/ranger/druid? They're not spellcasters, but they can do awesome things nonetheless.

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 07:38 PM
Note that a skin of proteus only allows you to use metamorphosis (essentially a 4th level spell), at manifester level 7, which gives you inanimate objects and creatures up to 7 HD, but no more, and it requires a standard action to change. You do get healing out of it (equal to one night's rest), but for 84k, you should get some nice perks.

In any case, it'd help them level the playing field without actually casting spells themselves. :smalltongue:

Sadly, the setting does not have psionics. It didn't mesh with the source material. But excellent suggestions.


[edit] How about classes such as the wildshaping monk/ranger/druid? They're not spellcasters, but they can do awesome things nonetheless.

Can't do non-Core variants either, unfortunately - I tried to pull that already.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 07:44 PM
Then recruit a phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) that (preferably) has a grudge against the wizard to do this thing you ask. Equip him/her/it/whatever with the means to pull you close, and be ready with that AMF item.

Then go to town.

Thorcrest
2009-05-21, 08:04 PM
With all the posts on keeping the wizard from escaping to his plane, I had a strange idea. What if the PC's could somehow forcibly send the wizard to their own secret plane type of thing and fight him on even footing where the wizards defenses don't need to be overcome.

The Pcs would still have to take on a Lv 20 Wizard, but he won't have any traps or countless hordes of monsters waiting, as well as suprise now being on the PC side.

Is there any way to get this to work form a distance to really suprise the wizard and get an edge.

Oh, don't know my epic stuff very well, but if Mind Blank is a spell, which I am assuming it is, could the wizard not cast it at the party to 100% dispel it type of thing?

Please respond, It would help me come up with more ideas.

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 08:21 PM
With all the posts on keeping the wizard from escaping to his plane

It's not a concern. The wizard can't get one to retreat to.

Now, a tower surrounded by columns of flame, with water traps that spring into existence from nowhere, golem servants... he can certainly run there.

Thorcrest
2009-05-21, 09:04 PM
I'm glad you posted that! lots of people were saying the wizard could just Time stop+ go to his secret own plane; that;s good... but I guess now the PC's can't drag him to their own either... hmmm... Gotta go think of something else.

afroakuma
2009-05-21, 09:59 PM
I'm glad you posted that! lots of people were saying the wizard could just Time stop+ go to his secret own plane; that;s good... but I guess now the PC's can't drag him to their own either... hmmm... Gotta go think of something else.

Well, let me break down the official magical policy:

There are two planes. Effects requiring a specific plane, other than those that draw on the power of an Inner Plane, will very likely fail. Exceptions are made for Transportation effects that, per fluff, employ the Astral Plane.

Gate has been nerfed. It still functions as a portal and can bring some creatures of reasonable power across planes. You have no control over such creatures.

Shapechange remains untouched. Many creatures favored by shapechange exploiters are unavailable. Knowing this spell, there will still be many ways to horribly abuse it.

Psionics in their entirety are unavailable.

Binding, shadow magic and truenaming are unavailable.

Effects that would require the deific structure (planar ally, contact other plane, commune) do not exist.

Did I miss anything?

DragoonWraith
2009-05-21, 11:12 PM
Sadly, the setting does not have psionics. It didn't mesh with the source material. But excellent suggestions.
Couldn't you homebrew a similar effect, though?

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 11:30 PM
The item would be 100% exactly the same, except it takes a different feat and a different spell.

See? None of those icky psionics, but you still have the awesome.

Thorcrest
2009-05-21, 11:36 PM
The item would be 100% exactly the same, except it takes a different feat and a different spell.

See? None of those icky psionics, but you still have the awesome.

Then you could just go: [Insert Epic spell here] is now a feat, Awsome! I can win now, thats just a rediculous shift in the game and I don't think its what Afro is looking for

Sorry! I keep forgetting your full user name!

The Glyphstone
2009-05-21, 11:55 PM
that's drifting towards fallacy territory, though I couldn't determine exactly which one. Psionics and Magic are intended to be mostly interchangable, as indicated by Psi-magic Transparency being the default rule, and half of the XPH being Psionic . It's not unreasonable to make, say, a magical [i]Robe of the Phasm instead of a Ectoplasmic Skin of Proteus, substituting the closest magical equivalents (Polymorph and Craft Wondrous Item) for the psionic equivalents (Metamorphosis and Craft Psionic Item).

Epic Magic and normal Magic is a completely different ballgame. Epic Spells specifically cannot be contained in items anyways, so there's good precedent for them never being required for crafting items.

Gaiyamato
2009-05-22, 01:59 AM
While I would really like that to work, it doesn't. If it did, there would be no problem even with a VoP Monk20.

There are several reasons why.
- You have to actually get up to the Wizard to deliver the hit. Vow of Poverty means you can't. One fly spell, and the wizard can park himself 100 feet up and be impervious to any assault.
Then you need to make sure you get him inside.
We have ground rules on where this fight is taking place.


- If the Wizard knows a bunch of Monks are coming, it will have polymorphed into something that is immune to critical hits. No stunning fist = sad monks.
They only have a couple of levels for monks so that they don't even need weapons. They can still have magic items you know just not many.


- How are you fitting 12 feats into that build? VoP only allows bonus Exalted Feats, not bonus regular Feats.
Not. It was just a list of random feats and ideas, not a complete character build.
I'm not sure if flaws are allowed, they would help a lot.
and yeah your going to have some cool Exalted feats.


- Unless you're using fractional BAB, that is going to have a pretty low attack bonus.
But you have weapon finesse. and 20 levels of pumping a hafling who started out with 20 in Dex. lol.
Plus the BAB should be around 8, more with fractional.
The halflings also has init roll sof 1D20+7+DEX Bonus+WIS Bonus.
We know the wizard knows that we are coming. Everyone is ready and expecting the fight. So unlikely to be any surprise rounds there.

Also with the shadowdancer levels they can summon a whole pile of various elvels of shadows. They can also vanish into the shadows and then leap out at the wizard from all sorts of places, even right from under him.
If they manage to take the swarmfighting two of them can fit in an adjacent hex right next to him and can use his own shadow to jump there.

They can at least put up a damn good fight.
Also even if he can engate sneak attack damage they still get the skirmish damage attack. Which has the sneak attack bonuses sacked onto it as well.
He cannot actually prevent the damage so long as they keep moving. lol.
I think there is around +12D6 damage each hit there if you have 4 specific feats.

Level 20 character has 6 feats to chose, they get weapon finese for free. So 7 feats all up. If you use 2 for SV and VoP then you still have 4 to chose plus then you gain a bunch of exalted feats.

Even two or three combined with a couple of other characters would be a huge help.

Oslecamo
2009-05-22, 04:02 AM
Been there, done that.

This match already hapened. In this forums. The wizard went down to three players thanks to a combination of force arrows+skill tricks+time stands still to detect the wizard while it was super-invisible.

Altough technically it wasn't punching indeed.

olentu
2009-05-22, 04:45 AM
Been there, done that.

This match already hapened. In this forums. The wizard went down to three players thanks to a combination of force arrows+skill tricks+time stands still to detect the wizard while it was super-invisible.

Altough technically it wasn't punching indeed.

Of course you might be thinking of a different match from the one that I am thinking of so is this the match where the person playing the sorcerer deliberately decided not to use the best or I think even the second best tactics that came to mind, and such a match took place in a featureless arena that was impossible to leave. Also I am sure that I am forgetting other circumstances that made that fight quite different from this one.

Telonius
2009-05-22, 09:55 AM
Then you need to make sure you get him inside.
We have ground rules on where this fight is taking place.

They only have a couple of levels for monks so that they don't even need weapons. They can still have magic items you know just not many.

No, they can't. They are only allowed the clothes on their backs, simple non-masterwork non-magic weapons, nonmagical clothes, etc. They cannot own or borrow any magic item, though they can benefit from a magic item used by somebody else on their behalf. Vow of Poverty is not a way to make an awesome character awesomer. It is a way to make a character that owns no items, playable at all.


But you have weapon finesse. and 20 levels of pumping a hafling who started out with 20 in Dex. lol.
Plus the BAB should be around 8, more with fractional.
The halflings also has init roll sof 1D20+7+DEX Bonus+WIS Bonus.
We know the wizard knows that we are coming. Everyone is ready and expecting the fight. So unlikely to be any surprise rounds there.


Without fractional BAB, that's an attack of 12+DEX. At 20, let's assume he put full Exalted bonuses into DEX, so that's 28 + 4 from levels, so 32, +11. + 5 from exalted strike. So, 12 + 11 + 5 = +28. Not terribly impressive. A Half-Orc Samurai20 wielding a +2 sword gets a bigger bonus. Str 20/+5 base, add in 4 from leveling to get +7 STR. BAB 20 + 7 + 2 (magic) = 29. (That's without strength-boosting items, tomes, etc). Fractional BAB does help slightly: your attack roll is +31.


Also with the shadowdancer levels they can summon a whole pile of various elvels of shadows. They can also vanish into the shadows and then leap out at the wizard from all sorts of places, even right from under him.
If they manage to take the swarmfighting two of them can fit in an adjacent hex right next to him and can use his own shadow to jump there.

Negated by a level 0 spell, Light. Remember, he knows who's coming, and will prepare accordingly.


They can at least put up a damn good fight.
Also even if he can engate sneak attack damage they still get the skirmish damage attack. Which has the sneak attack bonuses sacked onto it as well.
He cannot actually prevent the damage so long as they keep moving. lol.
I think there is around +12D6 damage each hit there if you have 4 specific feats.
Correct, if they can hit him. There's still the matter of negating miss chance due to fog cloud, etc, and actually hitting him despite having a low attack. Also spending four specific feats out of 6 total non-Exalted, with the other two feats (Dodge and Mobility) being required for entry into Shadowdancer (assuming the Monk took Combat Reflexes as his second-level bonus feat).


Even two or three combined with a couple of other characters would be a huge help.
Combined with other characters, this could possibly be a hindrance to the Wizard. But with what you had said - a party of six of these things - it would not work.

Thorcrest
2009-05-22, 12:00 PM
Alright, do the shadow dancer thing doesn't work, I suggest that none of the PC's have elemental based anything, or else the Wizard can just take advantage of it. I think I have a similar idea that may work: 6 level 20 Rogues. All they need to do is know exactly where the wizard is and teleport to him, the Wizard CANNOT know theyare about to do this, and then all can sneak attack him in a suprise round, provided the wizard dosen't have defenses to stop teleporting to a location (oops, did I just make him stronger, nah you already thought of that) then all sneak attack, with dex buff items and weapon finesse, they can all sneak attack from closecombat or range, preferably both, odds are one will hit, if your lucky two, get all weapons to stun (the wizard isn't immune is he?) then thats at least 10D6 + Dex Mod + weapon + stun= A wizard that can't fight back and might die faster than you think.

pendell
2009-05-22, 12:55 PM
:smallsigh: No, no I have not.

Must I spell it out for you?

I am going to take the notes from this thread and homebrew some means for even a lowly fighter to stand a chance against a wizard, including bypassing contingency, shrugging off spells, ignoring illusions and any other bloody thing that a wizard might try.

In other words, I don't fracking care if the only way to beat the wizard is to play a wizard, because I don't care about ways that currently exist to do so. What I need to get is what needs to be available in order to stand against a wizard, in raw flat terms, rather than "spells." "Spells" are not needed to beat a wizard, the ability to get around what a wizard can do is needed to beat a wizard.

Can I try?

A lowly fighter taking on a wizard.

1) Deception. I know the wizard has warning and has exact knowledge of my capabilities. That therefore makes this a no-go. So I scrap the plan. In fact, I may even scrap the character, because any self-respecting wizard will kill my character from a distance if they believe my character poses a remote threat. Perhaps I leave the job of 'kill this wizard' to another individual .. also a low-level person.

2) Intelligence. I need to know as much about the wizard, how (s)he protects herself, as I can. If possible, this means signing on with the wizard as a mook, possibly to get as high as Trusted Lieutenant. If I can't do that, maybe just working as the janitor. It's amazing how much stuff a servant can learn. No one pays them any attention, and they go everywhere.

3) Exploit the Weakness (if any). Once I have concealed myself from the wizard (by obscurity, since I don't have the means of protecting myself magically), I know just what the wizard is capable of and what the weakness is.

Does the wizard have a weakness that a low-level can exploit? For instance, does their magic not work against the color yellow? Does their power derive from a ring that can conveniently be tossed into the local volcano? Is hir soul secretly kept in a box?

If there's a Mcguffin weakness, there's your answer: A rogue quest to steal the Mcguffin and destroy the wizard by dropping a torpedo into the exhaust port, right below the main port.

What if the wizard doesn't have a weakness? What if s/he's just an uber-powerful mage all the time and is always protected by spells or what not?

Then it's time for step 4..

4) Kill with a borrowed knife.
The wizard is protected by magics I can't hope to penetrate. That means I have to ensure the wizard gets into a fight with someone -- or some thing -- else who can.

This is easier if I'm the wizard's trusted Lieutenant. Trick the wizard into fighting the Tarrasque (Vanity? The Wizard thinks they are the most powerful being in the world? Bragging rights? Rare spell components made from the claws)? Or provoke a military assault on some city that the wizard must defend. The wizard doesn't have to be good-aligned to do this. Sauron would defend Barad-dur. Or find another archmage and kill his dog, carefully leaving my target's monogrammed handkerchief on the bloody corpse.

One way or another, the objective is to put the wizard in as tactically disadvantaged a position as possible -- away from his lair, away from his minions, stripped of most of his defensive magics, out of offensive magic of his own, and low on hit points.

This is best done by provoking or tricking him into fighting something near or at his or her own power level. This is probably another archmage, but might be some horrendously overpowered monster, or even a conventional invading army.

5) Kill the target.
Once I've manipulated the wizard into the above position of being away from home, alone, low on hit points, and out of magic, THEN move in for the kill. Best chance, I simply whack him over the head with a sap for submission damage, then slice his throat from ear to ear while he's unconscious. Even as down as he is, it's still best to kill him by surprise if possible. NOW is the time to bring out the anti-magic field, when I, his trusted lieutenant, am only five feet away from the badly hurt, all-spells-expended mage.

====
So there's my answer. There are two basic ways for a low-level character to kill an epic-level wizard: By Mcguffin, or by lots and lots of guile.

There are four ways to kill a high-powered wizard:
1) Overpower or counter his magic with magic of your own.
2) Destroy the Macguffin from which he draws his power.
3) Manipulate him into countering his own magic.
4) Manipulate someone else into overpowering or countering most, or all, of his.

A non-spellcaster character has options 2-4 available. 3 and 4 require a great deal of guile and a talent for deceit and manipulation -- something your average heroic paladin or knight doesn't really want, and isn't exactly heroic. That's why Macguffin plots are so common in sword and sorcery stories.

I note that OOTS used this pattern a few times:

1) Brigand leader on daughter. Pretended to be her faithful servant, waited until a band of adventurers had weakened her, then punched her out. This is an EXACT fulfillment of the trope above, and he literally did punch out the wizard! Well, sorceress, to be exact.

2) ABD on Vaarsuvius. ABD took all the steps above of A) Conceal self B) Gather intelligence C) Put V in a tactically disadvantaged position. She was helped in that V put hirself in the bad situation, purely by hir own choices, thus saving time. D) Strike. I note that the AMF + claws could just as easily been a human fighter with AMF and a sword.

3) Xykon on Durkon in OOTS. He lured him out by deliberately using Lirian as bait

So this is the pattern: Conceal yourself, gather intelligence, find the weakness, strip the defenses, make the kill. I suspect most battles where low-level fighters kill high-level wizards will follow this trope.

Personally, I recommend the Mcguffin trope. Give the wizard some weakness that a low-level fighter can exploit, and make the wizard so arrogant he'll sit back and laugh and allow the fighter to complete all or most of the quest without doing what a prudent man would do, e.g squash the fighter like a bug at the outset.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thorcrest
2009-05-22, 09:03 PM
New idea: Raise an army, but make all of them look like the PC, the Wizard won't know which one is the real one, as all are exact copies, clones persay. All of whom will appear to have the same skills when they are infact weak, then get to the wizard and he will have to waste many spells on some pointless NPCs, and, even if he is not hurtm, he will have many less spells from fighting the hundreds of thousands of clones, then, without his magics, the PCs will ahave an easy time of it.

Yes it is a far fetched idea

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 09:25 PM
Yes it is a far fetched idea

Also really not helpful in the context of what we're looking for.

Voldecanter
2009-05-22, 09:43 PM
So everyone really needs to tone down their critical anaylisis of this question the awnser is simple but however I doubt my awnser will be the correct one .

My Suggestions :

Have a basic Party of Rogue type character , Paladin , Bard , Fighter and a so-what class like ranger .

Equip your Rogue with items(preferably duelwielded daggers) that can do two of the following : Make the rogue somewhat immune/resistant to timestop effects , and a stun/daze type effect .

Have the Paladin have a sentient Item that Gets into his head every now and then and can somewhat confuse the wizard when trying to read his mind , there will be two voices /train of thoughts to follow so he might have to think about who is who at times causing him to waste time , or spell slots for time stop maybe ?

Bard is good for moral , you might want to try to fascinate the wizard so you can use suggestion one him so that maybe , just maybe he will tell you his source of all knowingness(This Wizard Must have a Cheesbane I could use on HIm!)

Fighter Fighter , well the Fighter can have magick items that make him immune/resistant to mind effects/spells . and some nifty weapons so that if the rogue manages to stun this bastard he can simple HIT WITH STICK , HIT WITH STICK !

Have a 20th lvl Wizard Craft you a Dispel Scroll , and then pay a diviner to scry on this wizard for you- maybe the wizard won't check this guy out with his knowingness- and use dispel on the wizard , then use the crafty rogue with the bard , then the paladin for restorative help , and later the fighter when things start looking up ! Maybe hire a monk Npc to use Subdual dmg on this wizard so you can actually punch him out .

Maybe we should have some kind of Continingencies so that we can use word of recall or something , the wizard might follow immediatley but perhaps we can buy some time if everything goes down under . buy time to heal perhaps ?

If all else fails tell the people that gave you the job to kill this Wizard Hell No , go home , grab your gold pieces and your party and head to the bar , maybe you will see this wizard there , looking for some lvl 20 Pc's that aren't always trying to kill him .

Gaiyamato
2009-05-22, 09:51 PM
No, they can't. They are only allowed the clothes on their backs, simple non-masterwork non-magic weapons, nonmagical clothes, etc. They cannot own or borrow any magic item, though they can benefit from a magic item used by somebody else on their behalf. Vow of Poverty is not a way to make an awesome character awesomer. It is a way to make a character that owns no items, playable at all.
Not all of them need the VoP. and the VoP states that they may benefit from items used on them by others. Which means only 1 or 2 of the halflings need to bother with magic items that acn be used to buff the other halflings.



Without fractional BAB, that's an attack of 12+DEX. At 20, let's assume he put full Exalted bonuses into DEX, so that's 28 + 4 from levels, so 32, +11. + 5 from exalted strike. So, 12 + 11 + 5 = +28. Not terribly impressive. A Half-Orc Samurai20 wielding a +2 sword gets a bigger bonus. Str 20/+5 base, add in 4 from leveling to get +7 STR. BAB 20 + 7 + 2 (magic) = 29. (That's without strength-boosting items, tomes, etc). Fractional BAB does help slightly: your attack roll is +31.
Against a Wizard? It is 1D20+31 vs A wizards AC. lol.
With flurry of blows x 6?? The Wizard has 20D4+CON HP and 10+DEX+Magic AC bonus (the different spells don't stack. The best he can do amgically is +6 AC and +4 DEX) Even if he has a huge dex his AC wont be above 20.
That is a good dozen hits per round as only a 1 misses. The only problem might be if he is incorporeal so they have a 50% miss chance.



Negated by a level 0 spell, Light. Remember, he knows who's coming, and will prepare accordingly.
Negates only one instance of darkness. If he used Quickened, forked spells he is still at best only casting 4 per round. With over 18 Shadow creatures who are shadows themselves and can cast varying levels of darkness they can ensure that there is always permanent darkness.
If the Wizard casts AMF he looses all of his buffs and the light anyway so the Halflings just slaughter him. lol.
The only solution for the Wizard is to run. Which he can do easily.



Correct, if they can hit him. There's still the matter of negating miss chance due to fog cloud, etc, and actually hitting him despite having a low attack. Also spending four specific feats out of 6 total non-Exalted, with the other two feats (Dodge and Mobility) being required for entry into Shadowdancer (assuming the Monk took Combat Reflexes as his second-level bonus feat).
See above. The have a better to hit than the Wizard can possibly have as an AC given that magical armor bonuses and delfection bonuses don't stack.
That is the huge flaw of Wizards.
The only way around that is if he is an armored wizard.



Combined with other characters, this could possibly be a hindrance to the Wizard. But with what you had said - a party of six of these things - it would not work.
Yeah I'll pay that. Maybe 6 of these guys solely won't work if the wizard is smart enough.
But one or two would be a major pain in the ass for the Wizard.


So everyone really needs to tone down their critical anaylisis of this question the awnser is simple but however I doubt my awnser will be the correct one .

My Suggestions :

Have a basic Party of Rogue type character , Paladin , Bard , Fighter and a so-what class like ranger .

Equip your Rogue with items(preferably duelwielded daggers) that can do two of the following : Make the rogue somewhat immune/resistant to timestop effects , and a stun/daze type effect .

Have the Paladin have a sentient Item that Gets into his head every now and then and can somewhat confuse the wizard when trying to read his mind , there will be two voices /train of thoughts to follow so he might have to think about who is who at times causing him to waste time , or spell slots for time stop maybe ?

Bard is good for moral , you might want to try to fascinate the wizard so you can use suggestion one him so that maybe , just maybe he will tell you his source of all knowingness(This Wizard Must have a Cheesbane I could use on HIm!)

Fighter Fighter , well the Fighter can have magick items that make him immune/resistant to mind effects/spells . and some nifty weapons so that if the rogue manages to stun this bastard he can simple HIT WITH STICK , HIT WITH STICK !

Have a 20th lvl Wizard Craft you a Dispel Scroll , and then pay a diviner to scry on this wizard for you- maybe the wizard won't check this guy out with his knowingness- and use dispel on the wizard , then use the crafty rogue with the bard , then the paladin for restorative help , and later the fighter when things start looking up ! Maybe hire a monk Npc to use Subdual dmg on this wizard so you can actually punch him out .

Maybe we should have some kind of Continingencies so that we can use word of recall or something , the wizard might follow immediatley but perhaps we can buy some time if everything goes down under . buy time to heal perhaps ?

If all else fails tell the people that gave you the job to kill this Wizard Hell No , go home , grab your gold pieces and your party and head to the bar , maybe you will see this wizard there , looking for some lvl 20 Pc's that aren't always trying to kill him .

Dominate the Rogue, backstab the Paladin while a summoned Demon holds off the Fighter. :)
That's why I tried to avoid to many specialised characters.
At least if you have 6 of all the same then it does not matter if he takes out one or two.

I am thinking that it is impossible to make a party that can defeat the wizard in all possibilities.
There are massive flaws in all plans given the range of tools available to a level 20 wizard.

Without a spellcaster the Wizard can easily work his way around anything you can think of if he is clever enough.
The best you can hope for is to put up a damn good fight and get lucky enough to take him out. :P

Thorcrest
2009-05-22, 10:19 PM
Ok, not a joke ths time... its buisness time.

Ok Get a scroll of anti magic field that can cover the whole stronghold, then have a bunch of buffed martial classes, whatever you prefer, remember someone needs to have use magic item, now the wizard can't cast spells, and can't leave, as well as having no buffs, the PCs can then take him out easily enough, they just have to get through all of his minions first, which as far as everyone here seems to be concerened isn't a problem... for some reason.


Afroakuma, I was wondering, what kind of minions does the wizard have at his disposal, other than the ones he must summon magically?

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 10:20 PM
Afroakuma, I was wondering, what kind of minions does the wizard have at his disposal, other than the ones he must summon magically?

What would you like him to have?

Various undead, demons, devils, human beings... scour the MM, generally, especially for creatures that would fit in with the Arabian theme.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-22, 10:29 PM
The Wizard has 20D4+CON HP and 10+DEX+Magic AC bonus (the different spells don't stack. The best he can do amgically is +6 AC and +4 DEX) Even if he has a huge dex his AC wont be above 20.See above. The have a better to hit than the Wizard can possibly have as an AC given that magical armor bonuses and delfection bonuses don't stack.
That is the huge flaw of Wizards.
The only way around that is if he is an armored wizard.



I recommend you go re-read the rules on stacking bonuses, because this is so wrong it's painful. Bonuses always stack as long as they're not the same type of bonus, so the wizard can be sporting an Armor bonus (from Mage Armor), a Shield bonus (from Shield), a Deflection bonus (from a Ring of Protection or a spell of Protection from [Your Alignment]), a Natural Armor bonus (from an Amulet of Natural Armor), plus dodge bonuses, luck bonuses, sacred/profane bonuses....wizards can send their AC through the stratosphere without too much trouble if they want to.

Woot Spitum
2009-05-22, 11:03 PM
Ok, not a joke ths time... its buisness time.

Ok Get a scroll of anti magic field that can cover the whole stronghold, then have a bunch of buffed martial classes, whatever you prefer, remember someone needs to have use magic item, now the wizard can't cast spells, and can't leave, as well as having no buffs, the PCs can then take him out easily enough, they just have to get through all of his minions first, which as far as everyone here seems to be concerened isn't a problem... for some reason.Not to rain on your parade, but antimagic field emanates in a ten foot radius centered on whoever cast it. So you couldn't cover someone's whole stronghold with it.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-22, 11:09 PM
Negates only one instance of darkness. If he used Quickened, forked spells he is still at best only casting 4 per round. With over 18 Shadow creatures who are shadows themselves and can cast varying levels of darkness they can ensure that there is always permanent darkness.
If the Wizard casts AMF he looses all of his buffs and the light anyway so the Halflings just slaughter him. lol.

Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm).

Everything else is so wrong I won't address it, but I thought I'd point this out.

Juhn
2009-05-23, 01:08 AM
*facepalm* Afro, if you would just be straight-up in these threads and go "This is for VUAx, so I want homebrew solutions, within x theme, and these are the specifics of what I'm working with in the first place", you wouldn't have many of these problems.

You went several pages before someone figured out you're looking for homebrew solutions in this thread, and something along the lines of a "wizards can't be beaten" argument started up.

Note to anyone who's not aware: this relates to the setting decided on for Vote Up a Campaign setting, which is based around an Arabian Nights sort of theme. Some changes have been made, including the existence of only two planes (part of the reason for Afro mentioning the wizard not getting gate cheese or genesis).

Links to the VUACS threads could be posted if it'd help anyone here, or afro could simply give a better rundown than I just did.

DragoonWraith
2009-05-23, 01:48 AM
*facepalm* Afro, if you would just be straight-up in these threads and go "This is for VUAx, so I want homebrew solutions, within x theme, and these are the specifics of what I'm working with in the first place", you wouldn't have many of these problems.
To be fair, I figured that out the first time I read it. I was flabbergasted that it took to the third page for everyone else to figure it out. Of course, I started reading when it was on like page 5, but yeah, I couldn't believe it when it took so many posts for people to get that.

Juhn
2009-05-23, 01:52 AM
Yeah, upon further reading that post may have come off as ruder than I meant it. I just noticed that people don't tend to get all the information they need to do things efficiently right from the get-go.

Part of the reason people didn't get it may simply be that this isn't in the Homebrew forum and thus people try to look for solutions within the game as it stands.

Perhaps I should stop posting these things while sleep-deprived.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-23, 09:03 AM
You can't 'get' something if you're not familiar with everything involved.

I don't usually go into the Homebrew forum, and I'm willing to bet that not everyone else does.