Overrun vs. Improved Trip

[Quietus]

As I see it, Improved Trip is more useful in many ways. It does require the touch attack, but that's really easy to make, and lets you get in a free attack. However, it requires two feats, and a good Int score.

For, say, your average Half-orc Barbarian, what's the consensus on Improved Overrun? Same benefits as Improved Trip (minus the free attack, sadly), but requires one less feat, and as a brute beatstick, the prerequisite is something you should, by all rights, already have.

What's everyone's opinion of this in a core-only setting? What about non-core?

::Edit:: I see... this feat doesn't remove the attack of opportunity either, does it. Well, that's a pretty big hit against it.

[Salt_Crow]

I'd go for improved trip if you have the Int score for combat expertise. Otherwise, forget about both of them. I've never seen overrun as a viable tactic apart from druids shuffling around in their dinosaur forms.

[Oracle_Hunter]

As a low level Fighter, Overrun is almost strictly better than your basic attack. Yes, you trigger an OA, but then you also put them on the ground - granting combat advantage to everyone and a free OA if they decide to stop sucking. It's really hard to lose that STR check too, until you start fighting really big guys.

Improved Trip definitely works for longer, but it requires you to put points in INT. If you wanted skill points, you shouldn't be a Fighter anyways :smalltongue:

[Quietus]

I'd go for improved trip if you have the Int score for combat expertise. Otherwise, forget about both of them. I've never seen overrun as a viable tactic apart from druids shuffling around in their dinosaur forms.

Triceratops shuffle ftw? I can't wait to put that to the test, but that's quite a ways off.

It does seem like a decent pick, depending on your campaign, for a big stupid brute style PC. I'm just not sure if it works in-game as well as it works on paper. Not that you NEED the feat to do it; Sometimes you just wanna get where you're going.

[Darrin]

As I see it, Improved Trip is more useful in many ways. It does require the touch attack, but that's really easy to make, and lets you get in a free attack. However, it requires two feats, and a good Int score.


There are several other ways to get Improved Trip without a high Int. Monks can pick it up as a bonus feat at 6th level (Core). Wolf Totem Barbarian (UA) gets it at 2nd level. If you don't have the Int and can't get it any other way, you can take Martial Study: Mighty Throw or buy Slippers of the Setting Sun (ToB) and get the same effect as Improved Trip plus "throw my opponent 10' away".



For, say, your average Half-orc Barbarian, what's the consensus on Improved Overrun? Same benefits as Improved Trip (minus the free attack, sadly), but requires one less feat, and as a brute beatstick, the prerequisite is something you should, by all rights, already have.


Not worth it. You're limited to one overrun attempt per turn, no matter what your BAB or character level is. Trip can be used multiple times a round or on an AoO. Once you use it, you're also not limited with what you can do with the rest of your attacks. If you attempt an overrun and use your standard action for that, you can't do anything else that round, even if you have iterative attacks.

If you really want to overrun something, buy a mount with Trample (Ex), which has several advantages over Improved Overrun or the Trample feat. The target(s) must choose between taking an AoO at a -4 penalty or making a Ref save for half damage. Trample (Ex) can be used on multiple opponents up to twice the mount's speed (Improved Overrun or the Trample feat only work up to once it's speed). I think... Diprotodon (Sandstorm) is the lowest HD animal I see with Trample (Ex).



What's everyone's opinion of this in a core-only setting? What about non-core?


Core, Improved Trip is still better. Non-Core, a trip build is even more effective. I've never heard of an Overrun-based build.



::Edit:: I see... this feat doesn't remove the attack of opportunity either, does it. Well, that's a pretty big hit against it.

Hmm... you can get rid of that pesky AoO with Elusive Dance (Dragon #333), although 5 ranks of Perform (Dance) can be tricky to pick up as a Barbarian.