[4e] - What the heck? (Player's Handbook 3)

[Shadow_Elf]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/news_20090519.jpg

Picture says it all. Divine, Primal and Psionic? This means that Martial is going to fall behind, I guess.

4 Martial
6 Arcane
6 Divine
6 Primal
4 Psionic

By PH3's release, AFAWK. Thoughts?

[Gralamin]

From the D&DI upcoming changes thread:

We already have 6 arcane classes (Wizard, Warlock, Artificer, Swordmage, Bard, Sorcerer).
I predict they will follow the 4/2/2 pattern and We'll end up with
Martial 4/Arcane 6/Divine 6/Primal 6/Psionic 4

Which means PHB4 will probably be something like: Shadow, Martial and Psionic.

[NeoVid]

Since Martial Power is already out, I thought that they were done with martial classes... It would be kind of frustrating if they did do more martial classes, since they wouldn't be getting any extra material, except maybe out of Dragon.

[Gralamin]

Since Martial Power is already out, I thought that they were done with martial classes... It would be kind of frustrating if they did do more martial classes, since they wouldn't be getting any extra material, except maybe out of Dragon.

A Martial Power 2 (http://www.amazon.ca/Martial-Power-4th-D-Supplement/dp/0786953896/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242764673&sr=8-1) has been in the works for ages

[Hal]

Could we get a Divine Power book first? My poor cleric just doesn't have much going for him.

Speaking of which, how about another way to learn languages? A good cleric who doesn't know supernal seems silly, but how many clerics take Int 13 to get Linguist?

[Hzurr]

So judging by the cover it looks like we'll be getting at least one (most likely both) of the Gith races. (Which I totally predicted, in a "what do you think will be in the PHB3 thread" by the way), which makes sense with the whole "psionic" power source thing.

And minotaurs? Ok, I guess. That actually strikes me as a bit odd, since they already have a full write up in Dragon Magazine. However, I can see minotaurs going well with the primal power source.

This also would imply that there's a very high chance of Shadar-Kai being released as a PC race in PHB#, when they introduce the shadow power source.

[Awesomologist]

Could we get a Divine Power book first? My poor cleric just doesn't have much going for him.

Speaking of which, how about another way to learn languages? A good cleric who doesn't know supernal seems silly, but how many clerics take Int 13 to get Linguist?

Divine Power comes out next month. I feel your pain about divine classes, since even DDI wasn't offering much in the way of new powers and feats.

[eepop]

A good cleric who doesn't know supernal seems silly, but how many clerics take Int 13 to get Linguist?

Mine did. :smallsmile:

We were starting above first level, so I also used one of my items on a Gem of Colloquy.

[TheEmerged]

Guess I should officially change my current project below then :) I was hoping when I saw the Monk Playtest document that PHB3 would handle psi. It'll be interesting to see what the others are :D

[Hal]

Divine Power comes out next month. I feel your pain about divine classes, since even DDI wasn't offering much in the way of new powers and feats.

Ah. Allow me to facepalm for being ignorant of the release schedule.

*facepalm*

I really ought to pay more attention to these things, but I tend to just download the Character Builder updates when they arrive and go for the PDFs when I see someone mention them here.

Guess I'm not getting my money's worth out of DDI these days.

[NPCMook]

Could we get a Divine Power book first? My poor cleric just doesn't have much going for him.

Speaking of which, how about another way to learn languages? A good cleric who doesn't know supernal seems silly, but how many clerics take Int 13 to get Linguist?

Good news about Divine classes are they are bringing back Domains, which are like the fighting styles for Martial classes, simply augmenting you At-Will powers, At least that's what the preview looked like.

[Optimystik]

Is there a CRPG in the works for 4e yet? I'm not even looking at it until then.

Or better yet... a webcomic! :smallbiggrin:

[NPCMook]

Is there a CRPG in the works for 4e yet? I'm not even looking at it until then.

Or better yet... a webcomic! :smallbiggrin:

If by CRPG you mean Computer/Console Role Playing Game then <insert WoW joke here>

[Awesomologist]

Good news about Divine classes are they are bringing back Domains, which are like the fighting styles for Martial classes, simply augmenting you At-Will powers, At least that's what the preview looked like.

If you have a DDI account, Bill Slavicsek's April Ampersand Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/2009April) talked about Domains. The Domains do more than give "Divine Fighting Styles". They also offer new Channel Divinity feats. Worshiping certain gods opens up a few of these domains essentially offering 3 more CD feats and style feats.

Needless to say, I'm really looking forward to this book :smallbiggrin:

[Colmarr]

Gem of Colloquy.

The polyglot gem also helps with languages, and is a level 6 Wondrous Item.

PS. I love the cover of PH3. Much more evocative than PH2, and probably superior to PH1.

[RTGoodman]

I personally would allow Divine characters the option of learning Supernal - at least one of my 4E PbP DMs let me do it for a Paladin, and I think it just makes sense.


PS. I love the cover of PH3. Much more evocative than PH2, and probably superior to PH1.

Yeah, I agree here. That minotaur is, frankly, bad-ass. I don't care for the Gith races, but the Minotaur is cool enough to make up for that.

Speaking of predictions, I'm gonna say he's probably either a Divine character or a Primal one - doesn't really look Psionic enough to be a Psy-Warrior or anything else.

[Colmarr]

Yeah, I agree here. That minotaur is, frankly, bad-ass. I don't care for the Gith races, but the Minotaur is cool enough to make up for that.

I'm ambivalent about the Gith races, because I've never played or met one in any campaign I've been involved in.

However, that pose is just so dynamic that it really makes the cover jump out at me (no pun intended).

Edit: In fact, I just noticed that her left leg is above the title bar at the bottom of the page. Is that a first for a D&D 4e cover?

Edit 2: Amazon says no. The wizard's staff on the cover of PH1 covers the title bar.

[Awesomologist]

PHB2 - The Shifter Shaman's leg also crosses the bar. But yeah that cover is great. The Minotaur looks like it could a Blackguard but then we don't know what the psionic defender may be like.

[Shadow_Elf]

Let's play a game!
Everyone come up with a set of classes they anticipate/hope for in PH3!
Place your bets now!

Psion/Telepath (Psionic Controller)
Psychic Warrior (Psionic Defender)
Monk (Psionic Striker)
Empath/Argent (Psionic Leader)
Shugenja (Primal Leader*)
Wu Jen (Primal Controller**)
Crusader/Samurai (Divine Defender***)
Favored Soul (Divine Leader/Controller****)

*more traditional leader mechanic than Shaman, more elemental focus
**plays more like Wizard, less like Druid. Possesses interesting summons and buffs
***more multi-enemy lock-down than Paladin, less turtle more reckless
****combines low-damage control of Invoker with healbottery of Cleric

Races:
Minotaur (cloned from Dragon Article)
Githyanki (improved upon from MM)
Githzerai (improved upon from MM)
Duergar (improved upon from MM2)
Bullywugs (improved upon from MM2)
Kobolds (improved upon from MM)

anyone want to agree/disagree/post ideas of their own?
(also, my bet goes to Githzerai Monk and Minotaur Shugenja or Crusader on the cover, if my guesses are right about classes/races)

[Colmarr]

Shugenja (Primal Leader*)
Wu Jen (Primal Controller**)
Samurai (Divine Defender***)

I'd put money on the fact that most if not all of the asian-themed classes are psionic.

[Blackdrop]

One of the new articles said that they aren't making a samurai a full-fledged class.

[TheEmerged]

Psion/Telepath (Psionic Controller)
Psychic Warrior (Psionic Defender)
Monk (Psionic Striker)
Empath/Argent (Psionic Leader)

Telepath pretty much looks like a given.

Monk is being playtested, so it's a given. I wouldn't at all be surprised if we ended up with the soulknife as a second striker (ala Rogue/Ranger).

Empath is a somewhat obvious name for a psionic leader, and a working one.

Psychic Warrior, however, I hope they call something else. That name STINKS, and my 3.0 kobold psion had one level in the class :smallwink: For my own attempt at a psionic defender I used Shaper as the name. For fluff I had the shaper reshaping their bodies, or manipulating an ectoplasmic 'frame'.


Races:
Minotaur (cloned from Dragon Article)
Githyanki (improved upon from MM)
Githzerai (improved upon from MM)
Duergar (improved upon from MM2)
Bullywugs (improved upon from MM2)
Kobolds (improved upon from MM)

I'd say Minotaurs and the two gith races are a given, given that cover. Duergar however are not *quite* as given -- don't be surprised if we see the Derro and/or Svirn...Sven... those evil psychic gnome things I can never spell :smallwink:

[Kurald Galain]

Telepath pretty much looks like a given.
I don't think there will be one - mindreading as a main class ability doesn't fit in with how 4E works. Also, they really need to keep the name "psion" for legacy reasons, so I believe it'll be psion rather than telepath.


Duergar however are not *quite* as given -- don't be surprised if we see the Derro and/or Svirn
Svirfneblin, iirc. I don't think we'll see those, nor duergar, nor bullywugs - they're simply not popular enough. Rather, I think there will be elans. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if they used only githzerai or githyanki, or consider the two the same race in the future.

[Dhavaer]

Svirn...Sven... those evil psychic gnome things I can never spell :smallwink:

Svirfneblin are neutral, not evil.

[skywalker]

Empath/Argent (Psionic Leader)

Sounds like candy.


Svirfneblin are neutral, not evil.

But they live in the ground, how could they not be?

[Malek]

Divine Power comes out next month. I feel your pain about divine classes, since even DDI wasn't offering much in the way of new powers and feats.
Correction - next month is Ebberon Player's Guide. Divine Power is month after that :smallwink:

[Erik Woodhollow]

Monks are now Psionic-empowered?! :smalleek:

Does this mean the Ki Power source is shelved for now? Is it being replaced by a different one, like the Incarnum source in the D&D forums?

Here's my guessing for PH3:

RACES

-Minotaur (duh)
-Gith (duh)
-Gnoll (they just seem so...Primal!)
-Elan, Human Dashing Swordsman
...uh...next!

CLASSES
-Monk (duh)
-Psion
-Psychic Warrior (an intriguing class I remember from 3.5)

That's all I got...:smallfrown:

[shadzar]

Monks are now Psionic-empowered?! :smalleek:

Yup. they probably realized how silly a power source would be to have but a single class for it.

That is the problem when you try to balance everything out, you find you have to throw some things out because they just don't fit well enough anywhere and have to consolidate others so they fit on your scales to be wieghed agaisnt the rest.

[Burley]

Monks are now Psionic-empowered?! :smalleek:

Does this mean the Ki Power source is shelved for now? Is it being replaced by a different one, like the Incarnum source in the D&D forums?

Here's my guessing for PH3:

RACES

-Minotaur (duh)
-Gith (duh)
-Gnoll (they just seem so...Primal!)
-Elan, Human Dashing Swordsman
...uh...next!

CLASSES
-Monk (duh)
-Psion
-Psychic Warrior (an intriguing class I remember from 3.5)

That's all I got...:smallfrown:

I'm not sure if you mean Elan the OotS character, or the Elan psionic race...
Anyways, I doubt the Elan race will get in, especially since they took Elans, cut them in half, and made Eladrin and Deva. To make Elans a PC race would probably be too much overlapping fluff to be happy with.
Also, Gnolls will not be a PC race. Aside from not many players ever actually wanting to play one, they're a race of demon worshippers. Not a "my parents made a deal" emo race like Tieflings, but honest to goodness Demon Worship. That will not fly in the whole "Good Triumphs" thing that 4e focuses on. Notice there is no place for a PC to get necromantic or evil spells. PCs aren't supposed to be evil, and gnolls are just evil. Their primary language is Abyssal, then Common! Sure, it's alphabetical, but it's also Evil!

I doubt Ki was ever really going to be a power source. Only a couple classes were really based on ki, and even then the thread was tenuous. There's no need reinforce oriental steriotypes on consumers, however well-researched, or chimeric, they may have been.
Incarnum probably won't see the light of 4e's day, either. Incarnum was all about replacing item and getting powers. It'd basically negate half of a character, or else it'd look like a whole power source of Wardens.

[Awesomologist]

As of Dragon 367 Gnolls are indeed a playable race and they're actually fairly interesting although they do not hold any stat advantages in any one class (CON/DEX). They do make decent Rogues, Rangers, and Warlocks. Although they don't have ideal stats, their feats also help make them good Fighters. Barbarians, and Druids (the beast kind).


Correction - next month is Ebberon Player's Guide. Divine Power is month after that
Doh! I misread the pre-order. *Sigh* Another month of Divine Classes being ignored.

[TheEmerged]

Monks are now Psionic-empowered?! :smalleek:

-Psychic Warrior (an intriguing class I remember from 3.5)

The class they called Psychic Warrior (starting in 3.0) is intriguing. The name for this class stinks greatly, however.

As for the monks being psionic powered? Frankly, back in 3.0 there was an ongoing argument on the D&D boards about whether or not they already were psionic in everything but name. In fact, there was one amusing post back in the day where someone posted a 'new psionic class' that was just the monk with some names\fluff changed.


I don't think there will be one - mindreading as a main class ability doesn't fit in with how 4E works. Also, they really need to keep the name "psion" for legacy reasons, so I believe it'll be psion rather than telepath.

/humor on
And if mind-reading were all there was to being a telepath you'd be right :smallcool:
/humor off

Humor aside, I base this mostly on the fact that the 3.x telepath archetype character appears in at least one artwork in the 4.0 PHB. Of course you can just as quickly say he's the psion archetype :smallbiggrin: I don't think they're as wed to the name psion as you believe, but naturally I could be wrong.


Svirfneblin, iirc. I don't think we'll see those, nor duergar, nor bullywugs - they're simply not popular enough. Rather, I think there will be elans. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if they used only githzerai or githyanki, or consider the two the same race in the future.

Interestingly, I've done the bolded part for my own campaign world. I simply called the race Gith, gave them a choice for one of their racial bonuses, and called their two factions the Zerai & Yanki.

And as for duergar & derro? You might be surprised about the popularity of the dark dwarf archetype.

[shadzar]

Interestingly, I've done the bolded part for my own campaign world. I simply called the race Gith, gave them a choice for one of their racial bonuses, and called their two factions the Zerai & Yanki.

:smalleek: Then what did you do with the race known as Gith? Did you rename them?


The gith are a race of grotesque humanoids that appear to be a peculiar mixture of elf and reptile.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.


Githyanki are an ancient race descended from humans. They dwell upon the Astral plane but will often leave that plane to make war on other races. They are engaged in a lengthy war with the githzerai.


Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.


Githzerai are the monastic, chaotic neutral counterparts to the githyanki (q.v.). The two races share a stretch of time in history; the githzerai are the lesser and more repressed offshoot of the original people that the warrior Gith helped to escape the slavery of the mind flayers millennia ago.


Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Both the -yanki and -zerai are descendants of the mind-flayers slaved Gith...or have the Gith died out?

*AD&D Core Rules CD-ROM quotes from Monstrous Manual.

[Artanis]

The Gith might be done like Shifters: two similar (but still different) things under the same label.

[Blackfang108]

Both the -yanki and -zerai are descendants of the mind-flayers slaved Gith...or have the Gith died out?

Yes.

The Githzerai and Githyanki are descended from the Gith. They had a falling out over religi-political issues, IIRC.

They HATE each other. The ONLY thing that will stop -Zerai and -Yanki from fighting is a Mind-Flayer nearby. and then only until the Flayer is dead.

Lords of Madness expands on this a little. (In the Mind Flayer chapter, obviously.)

[shadzar]

Yes.

The Githzerai and Githyanki are descended from the Gith. They had a falling out over religi-political issues, IIRC.

They HATE each other. The ONLY thing that will stop -Zerai and -Yanki from fighting is a Mind-Flayer nearby. and then only until the Flayer is dead.

Lords of Madness expands on this a little. (In the Mind Flayer chapter, obviously.)

So the race formerly known as Gith are not even present in 3rd, and not in 4th either?

WOW! They (yanki/zerai) lost a lot of their heritage then!

[RTGoodman]

So the race formerly known as Gith are not even present in 3rd, and not in 4th either?

WOW! They (yanki/zerai) lost a lot of their heritage then!

Well, it's not like they cut the backstory. It's just that the "Gith" race is the ancestor race of the two current ones, like, for instance, wolves are to modern dogs. The race itself is gone, but only because it split into the two new ones.

[shadzar]

Well, it's not like they cut the backstory. It's just that the "Gith" race is the ancestor race of the two current ones, like, for instance, wolves are to modern dogs. The race itself is gone, but only because it split into the two new ones.

Not to take this thread further off topic, but I see what you are saying for this book and edition purposes, but I bet the Gith pirates will return later Spelljamming the skies of some distant planet. :smallwink:

:smallfurious: Bloody pirates!

[Mr.Bookworm]

Monks are now Psionic-empowered?! :smalleek:

Does this mean the Ki Power source is shelved for now? Is it being replaced by a different one, like the Incarnum source in the D&D forums?


I would love to see an Incarnum power source, but no, not as far as I know. What Wizards did was the sensible thing, in my opinion. They decided that it would be fairly stupid to shove all of the vaguely-Asian themed classes into one power source, so they nixed the Ki power source.

For my bet, I'm guessing Psion (Controller), Wilder (Leader), and Soulknife (Defender). Psychic Warrior is a great class with a pretty stupid name, and Soulknife was always a cool idea with really bad crunch. Psion has tons of legacy value, and Wilder/Soulknife are both names already in use.

[TheEmerged]

The Gith might be done like Shifters: two similar (but still different) things under the same label.

Essentially I had them start out with the same attribute bonuses, but two different sets of skill bonuses and a different encounter power depending on which way you choose.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Not only do I not expect WotC to combine the two Gith races, I sincerely hope they do not. They kept them separate in MM1, both in their "monster" entries and their "player" entries. With the awesome fluff that both gith have with their feud and their war with the Mind Flayers, it would be a crime to lump them together. It seems to be a Githyanki on the cover with the badass Minotaur.

[Asbestos]

Not only do I not expect WotC to combine the two Gith races, I sincerely hope they do not. They kept them separate in MM1, both in their "monster" entries and their "player" entries. With the awesome fluff that both gith have with their feud and their war with the Mind Flayers, it would be a crime to lump them together. It seems to be a Githyanki on the cover with the badass Minotaur.

Yeah, I think the best bet is for them being separate since while both Shifter 'races' were under Shifter, each Gith race had its own entry. I think its a Zerth with the Minotaur since it appears to be a Monk and everyone knows that Zerth make better monks.

PHB3, the PHB for the 'other' player races?

[ghost_warlock]

For my bet, I'm guessing Psion (Controller), Wilder (Leader), and Soulknife (Defender). Psychic Warrior is a great class with a pretty stupid name, and Soulknife was always a cool idea with really bad crunch. Psion has tons of legacy value, and Wilder/Soulknife are both names already in use.

:smallconfused: Wilders don't really have any abilities even vaguely resembling a leader role in 3e. Soulknives are really more striker than defender, but I can see a re-hash of the class going that way. The big issue with the soulknife is the same one with the incarnum classes - the primary abilities of the classes is negation of equipment, which I doubt WotC will translate to 4e. More than likely, the soulknife and monk have been merged into one class.

PHB3 will probably have Psion (controller), Wilder (striker), Monk (defender), and some garbage like Ardent (leader). Alternately, the striker might be Lurk.

Although I want to reserve judgement, I have a suspicion 4e psionics is going to lead to some serious nerd rage. But, then, the most recent psionics supplement published by WotC was Complete Psionic, and we all know how that went down... XD

@v: Monk as a striker honestly makes a lot more sense than being a defender. Wilder may very well be shifted to the PHB4 (if it even gets carried over into 4th). I'd expect some version of the psychic warrior to be the defender, in this case.

What I'd really like to see, though, would be Egoist (defender), Kineticist (striker), Telepath (leader), and Shaper (controller). :smalltongue: PHB 4 would have Nomad (controller) and Seer (leader). :smallwink:

[Alteran]

PHB3 will probably have Psion (controller), Wilder (striker), Monk (defender), and some garbage like Ardent (leader).

We already know that the monk is a striker. I think psion being controller is likely, and I know far too little about psionics to say any more. :smalltongue:

[Artanis]

I would kinda like Psionic not to have a Leader, at least for now. It won't happen that way, but it'd be neat.

At any rate, my predictions are:

*Monk - Striker (duh)
*Psion - Controller, secondary Striker and Leader
*Psychic Warrior (or some equivalent) - Defender or Leader, secondary the other one

*Wilder - Psion Striker PP or build


Regarding the Soulknife: I haven't seen the Monk playtest, so I honestly have to ask, do Monks use some sort of weapon/implement/whatever? Because I'm with ghost_warlock on this one: it'd be very difficult, maybe bordering on impossible, for 4e's wealth system to accomidate a class that gets a free item as important as a weapon/implement. So I see the Soulknife going one of two ways:
1) PP for the Monk
2) Them making the PsyWar and calling it "Soulknife" (like how they made Changelings and called them "Doppelgangers")

[RTGoodman]

Regarding the Soulknife: I haven't seen the Monk playtest, so I honestly have to ask, do Monks use some sort of weapon/implement/whatever? Because I'm with ghost_warlock on this one: it'd be very difficult, maybe bordering on impossible, for 4e's wealth system to accomidate a class that gets a free item as important as a weapon/implement.

The Monk doesn't get anything for FREE - it uses either normal weapons or its unarmed attack, BUT the unarmed attacks can be enchanted at normal cost via the Enchant Item ritual.

[Artanis]

Yeah, that'd work. I don't expect to see them give two classes the same gimmick unique mechanic, so that reinforces my doubt that a translated 3.5 Soulknife will be a base class.

[Yakk]

*nod*, killing the Psychic Warrior, taking his stuff, and boosting the Soul Knife or Soul Blade into a psychic defender class seems possible.

You could also go weird and create a defender class that isn't a meatshield.

[Mauril Everleaf]

You mean, like the Swordmage?

[Gralamin]

On the Wizards forums a developer mentioned a class called Emapth (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16989089&postcount=271). Empath sure sounds like a psionic leader to me.