The Borg vs. The UNSC (from Halo) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

GoC

2009-05-21, 05:40 AM

Smart AIs and MACs would rip huge holes in the fleet (more so if they can't adapt to metal, but I'm pretty sure they could, so nevermind).
A strong AI may be an intelligence beyond our comprehension but if it's tools (guns) are too weak to affect it's opponent's shields then it's doomed.

Spartans would basically take a cube a day (kind of like taking a Covenant flagship to the millionth power, but the Spartans are good at infiltration, plus *cough* they have Cortana)
How do they get inside?

Anyway, Cortana never really struck me as a true AI but simply a person in machine form (like all other sci-fi AIs and wasn't she human at one point?). Only having one copy of herself? Let's face it, that's really stupid. If you could keep backups of yourself in the of chance you died or were captured wouldn't you? Or create copies to advize other people as well?

Not sure an AI would be able to overpower them in such a fashion.
"Overpower"?:smallconfused:
I'm rather certain the word does not apply in this context. Hacking is not a battle of power, it's about wether or not an exploit exists (it does).

Arachu

2009-05-21, 05:51 AM

The Spartans would get in the way they always get in; they'd make a door :smallcool:

And, technically, Cortana's personality and learning capacity are from the cloned brain of the most intelligent being that the UNSC have at their disposal... So, combine that with the fact that her entire being is a supercomputer and you also have the most powerful AI at the UNSC's disposal.

Also, can the Borg adapt to melee? The Spartans are really good at that...

EDIT: To an AI, hacking is determined by power. 'Power' here referring to how well they apply their massive stores of information and programming. If it's an AI, then it's an actual, life or death struggle.

So, yeah... Wrestling a giant computer...

ZeroNumerous

2009-05-21, 05:57 AM

"Overpower"?:smallconfused:
I'm rather certain the word does not apply in this context. Hacking is not a battle of power, it's about wether or not an exploit exists (it does).

Actually it's a battle of speed. Whom can find the exploit first. And a battle between AIs(which, lets face it, the borg are an artificial intelligence in every sense of the word) ends with the destruction of both AIs as both create super viruses that destroy one another. End result: The Borg are deactivated as an AI sacrifices itself but humanity survives.

GrandMasterMe

2009-05-30, 04:28 PM

Seraph

2009-05-30, 06:34 PM

How do you adapt to a lead projectile? The whole adapting to phasers makes sence because it is simply creating the correct frequency to negate the laser..but adapting to bullets is a whole diffrent thing....

standard force fields, aka a technology so simple that almost every species in Star Trek, including the borg, possess them. also, before you bring up first contact, those weren't bullets but rather force-fields and holograms in the shape of a bullet, which is a ridiculously lateral way of attacking something that uses far more energy than whats necessary and only worked because there was no way to expect it.

Also, phasers aren't lasers, they're beams of exotic-matter plasma, or something.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-05-30, 07:32 PM

UNSC are so much cooler looking then the Borg and I love them with almost all of my twisted, barren heart.

That said, I don't think they would win this one. Their strengths generally lie in spearhead assaults and rapid movement, something which probably wouldn't be enough to save them from being annihilated.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to write Spartan V fanfiction :smallbiggrin:

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 12:06 AM

-Time Travel
-Phasers
-Quantum Torpedoes
-Antimatter
-Adaptability
-Warp speeds (Light speed to the 10th power)
-Thousands of troops
-Reanimate fallen comrades and enemies
-Literally stop at nothing

Im going to discount time travel outright because if it was readily available ot them the would always win by traveling back to the moment of genesis for their enemies specias and wiping them out.

Beyond that both sides have weavy weapons and FTL capabilites.

I think that one thing that will matter here is that Star Trek ships in the show often enganged at point-blank ranged while UNSC ships fight from hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of miles away.
If the UNSC get Super MACs then the Borg Cubes will be toasted before they know what hits them.
If not then its a more even fight.

On the ground the borge have the advantage of numbers but UNSC are faster and have better tactics despite not havign telepathic cohesion. The edge still goes to the borg for having lots of guys but UNSC marines have experiance fighting flood (lots of guys, assimilation, regeneration, and a much better method of infection) so the Borg doesnt have a psychological edge anymore.

Spartans would probably tear it up against the borg but they have very limited numbers.

If the UNSC are lucky, they have one of their planet destroying nukes with them.

But the borg can be hacked, which gives Cortana the power of a god for the purposes of this fight. If a human can force a borg to shutdown with hacking then an AI as powerful as Cortana certainly can.

Cortana:
Covenenant have captured Forerunner Tech, in additional to Elite and Prophet plasma and programming tech.
Forerunners could build dyson spheres and objects that wipe out all life int he galaxy.
Cortana defeated a covenant AI. Thus she can not only hack into alien programs but also defeat very advanced self-aware systems. (the borg have little self-awareness and can be hacked by a mere human)
From this she learned how to clone herself. These clones are imperfect, but usefull.
Cortana would sacrifice herself for the good of the human race if she had to, being loyal to John and to the Navy and also knowing that she will die anyway (AIs live only a decade or so)
She will also have assistance from the lesser ship AIs of the UNSC fleet.

My Conclusion: Unless the Borg are really good at that time travel bit they are screwed.

Long Range power- Human (MAC)
Close Range Power- Borg (Star Trek lasers and energy torpedos)
Tactics- Human (borg pretty much just have one tactic)
Elite Units- Human (Spartans while the borg only have their queens)
Numbers- Borg
Determination- Tie (Borg dont give up, AI and Spartans dont give up)
Hacking- Human
Conversion- Borg, narrowly. Cortana could probably sever Borg formt he collective en masse if she wanted.

This is assuming the Borg DONT just travel back to the year 9300 BC and wipe out the few humans around.

GoC

2009-06-05, 08:17 AM

Actually it's a battle of speed. Whom can find the exploit first. And a battle between AIs(which, lets face it, the borg are an artificial intelligence in every sense of the word) ends with the destruction of both AIs as both create super viruses that destroy one another. End result: The Borg are deactivated as an AI sacrifices itself but humanity survives.

Actually a battle between two real AIs results in an insult competition. Hacking requires you to excecute instructions sent to you by the other AI. As normally both AIs are smart enough not to execute unsigned code and not allow outside access to ship systems this just results in the AI equivalent of a dance-off. Unfortunately star trek AIs (and almost all other sci-fi AIs) and the borg are rather stupid.

Even if you need to use outside code you can segment yourself. Having a single computer (virtual or otherwise) to excecute the incoming code with yourself having control over the computer (the equivalent of a guy with a really big magnet standing beside his computer in case it gets hacked).

But the borg can be hacked, which gives Cortana the power of a god for the purposes of this fight. If a human can force a borg to shutdown with hacking then an AI as powerful as Cortana certainly can.
I'd hoped we were discounting Voyager...

Cortana:
From this she learned how to clone herself. These clones are imperfect, but usefull.
:smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallsigh:
See what I mean by stupid AIs? Really, how hard is it to make a "wait one second, copy cortana.exe, run cortana.exe" script, run it and then deactivate herself?

Long Range power- Human (MAC)
Close Range Power- Borg (Star Trek lasers and energy torpedos)
Tactics- Human (borg pretty much just have one tactic)
Elite Units- Human (Spartans while the borg only have their queens)
Numbers- Borg
Determination- Tie (Borg dont give up, AI and Spartans dont give up)
Hacking- Human
Conversion- Borg, narrowly. Cortana could probably sever Borg formt he collective en masse if she wanted.
The important things are speed, numbers and firepower (range doesn't matter given the speeds involved). Hacking is either irrelevant or an autowin.
What is the UNSC FLT speed?
So what is the rough length of the average UNSC ship?

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-05, 08:49 AM

Hacking requires you to excecute instructions sent to you by the other AI.

Your argument is sort of moot since I specified a virus. Two disguised as an automated sequence and then sent to one another inside the latest taunt would kill both of them assuming neither can modify themselves. That's how any AI battle would end, since as you specified hacking is impossible and any physical attempt to shutdown the other automatically fails since neither would be able to manhandle the other.

:smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallsigh:
See what I mean by stupid AIs? Really, how hard is it to make a "wait one second, copy cortana.exe, run cortana.exe" script, run it and then deactivate herself?

I would assume it's an impossibility since even the most basic of protections against rogue AI ruling the world is making it impossible to modify or copy itself.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 08:54 AM

The Borg have never shown the ability to adapt to non-frequency based weaponry. They can't adapt to UNSC kinetic weapons, which also, by the way, actually pack quite a bit more punch than any weapon extant in Star Trek as a whole, barring perhaps a few alien-of-the-week one-offs. Why people are giving this to the Borg is a total mystery to me.

And can you imagine a mass of Borg drones trying to take on the UNSC Marine Corps? :smallamused: The slaughter would be of epic proportions, due to the Marine's propensity to use armor, highly mobile vehicles, airstrikes, and combined arms tactics in general, to say nothing of bullets. :smalltongue:

Prime32

2009-06-05, 09:14 AM

I really doubt that the Borg could adapt to "being hit really hard". If they could, they'd have done it long ago, and Worf wouldn't be able to knock them down. I'm pretty sure that Spartans hit harder than Worf. Borg can adapt to phasers because they have a frequency - they still don't have a perfect defence against photon torpedoes (other than their ships being durable and decentralised).

In addition, it is standard protocol to wipe UNSC databases if there is a risk of capture, making it difficult for the Borg to assimilate their technology (the Borg couldn't assimilate Data without an explanation of his workings), though I'm not sure how much advantage that would give the Borg anyway (I doubt they'd start constructing MAC guns any time soon).

If you haven't read the books, Cortana is really, really smart. As in, she's smart enough to supply all the computing needs of a planet by herself. :smalltongue: And hacking is her specialty.

LCR

2009-06-05, 09:18 AM

And can you imagine a mass of Borg drones trying to take on the UNSC Marine Corps? :smallamused: The slaughter would be of epic proportions, due to the Marine's propensity to use armor, highly mobile vehicles, airstrikes, and combined arms tactics in general, to say nothing of bullets. :smalltongue:

They beam everybody into space.

Prime32

2009-06-05, 09:31 AM

They beam everybody into space.The Borg aren't that inventive. :smallamused: Besides, transporters are never used to their full potential in Star Trek.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 10:04 AM

They beam everybody into space.
When have they, or anyone else in Star Trek for that matter, used that tactic?

Dervag

2009-06-05, 10:15 AM

standard force fields, aka a technology so simple that almost every species in Star Trek, including the borg, possess them. also, before you bring up first contact, those weren't bullets but rather force-fields and holograms in the shape of a bullet, which is a ridiculously lateral way of attacking something that uses far more energy than whats necessary and only worked because there was no way to expect it.Waitaminute.

The Borg are repeatedly beaten in hand to hand combat using edged melee weapons. If the Borg can in fact adapt to normal bullets, why can't they adapt to being stabbed in the face? For crying out loud, we know the defense against being stabbed in the face already; you wear a prosthetic iron skin. Why haven't the Borg, with their thousands of years' experience in getting stabbed in the face by hostile aliens, figured out the trick yet?

The fact that the Borg fail to adapt to edged melee weapons indicates that there are limits on what their "adaptation" technology lets them cope with. Drop a Borg cube in the center of a star and it won't be able to adapt its way out, because there's nothing its technological toolkit that it can adapt for the purpose. Fire an interesting riff on the theme of "phaser" at them and they have a chance, because they already have shields that work against some phasers. Analyzing your specific phaser may let them tweak their shields for much better effect against that specific beam.

But that doesn't mean they can adapt to gain immunity against absolutely anything.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-05, 11:19 AM

The Borg are repeatedly beaten in hand to hand combat using edged melee weapons. If the Borg can in fact adapt to normal bullets, why can't they adapt to being stabbed in the face? For crying out loud, we know the defense against being stabbed in the face already; you wear a prosthetic iron skin. Why haven't the Borg, with their thousands of years' experience in getting stabbed in the face by hostile aliens, figured out the trick yet?
This, combined with the fact that Spartans are really really good at beating the crap out of people, means that I am inclined to give the Spartans a very good chance at winning any engagement with the borg up-close and personal. Hell, just the marines could probably take them.

However, the problem comes from the fact that the Borg generally don't like to get up close and personal. They like to blow the hell out of your ships and then assimilate the hell out of your planet.

So lets look at the space combat shall we? OP places borg fleet at half as many ships as the UNSC. Those odds are rediculously skewed in favour of the borg. Just *one* borg cube did a good job of kicking the crap out of Earth's defenses. In fact it happened twice (Once in that episode picard gets assimilated and once in First Contact).

And to put that in perspective, lets compare Haloverse Human tech to Trek Human tech--In the Haloverse, the covenant ships are armed with plasma weaponry, and it really does a number on UNSC ships... they are hopelessly outclassed in space. Then look at Star Trek... plasma weapons are what you stick on shoddy merchant ships to shoot asteroids with, they don't pose any meaningful threat to federation ships, let alone the borg. So if Plasma weapons are so devastating vs. the UNSC, imagine what weapons good enough to put on a Star Trek warship will do to them?

And let's not forget shields... In Star Trek it seems that pretty much if your shields go down, your ship explodes a few hits later. I imagine this is due less to fragility of design and more to the power of their weapons, and the UNSC has trouble piercing Covenant shields, which I'm assuming are weaker than Trek shields purely on the fact that the Haloverse is more or less rediculously underpowered.

So in a ground engagement yeah, UNSC, no problem. But there won't ever be a land engagement. Because the UNSC gets asploded in space because of how very different the levels of power involved are.

GoC

2009-06-05, 11:22 AM

Your argument is sort of moot since I specified a virus. Two disguised as an automated sequence and then sent to one another inside the latest taunt would kill both of them assuming neither can modify themselves. That's how any AI battle would end, since as you specified hacking is impossible and any physical attempt to shutdown the other automatically fails since neither would be able to manhandle the other.
That's the thing. They would read the taunts but they wouldn't excecute them outside an emulator or sealed system.

I would assume it's an impossibility since even the most basic of protections against rogue AI ruling the world is making it impossible to modify or copy itself.
Hmm... makes sense. Not being able to examine and modify your own code considerably reduces the awesome power that is strong AI.

I'd say the biggest problem the UNSC have is the fact that a borg cube is actually very very big (something the moron writers have completely failed to understand).
Ugh. One day I'll write a book about all the stupid things that are in star trek.:smallyuk:

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 12:16 PM

So lets look at the space combat shall we? OP places borg fleet at half as many ships as the UNSC. Those odds are rediculously skewed in favour of the borg. Just *one* borg cube did a good job of kicking the crap out of Earth's defenses. In fact it happened twice (Once in that episode picard gets assimilated and once in First Contact).
Because the Federation Starfleet, frankly, sucks. UNSC massively outguns both the Federation and the Borg; the Pillar of Autumn's magnetic accelerator cannon fires a 600 ton slug at 0.1c (10% of the speed of light, for those who don't know the notation), which produces a yield on target equivalent to 60 gigatons of TNT, far heavier hitting than any weapon in service by any of the major powers in Star Trek, the Borg included. The cubes would be pounded to scrap in minutes.

Prime32

2009-06-05, 12:17 PM

And to put that in perspective, lets compare Haloverse Human tech to Trek Human tech--In the Haloverse, the covenant ships are armed with plasma weaponry, and it really does a number on UNSC ships... they are hopelessly outclassed in space. Then look at Star Trek... plasma weapons are what you stick on shoddy merchant ships to shoot asteroids with, they don't pose any meaningful threat to federation ships, let alone the borg. So if Plasma weapons are so devastating vs. the UNSC, imagine what weapons good enough to put on a Star Trek warship will do to them?To be fair, Covenant ships fire a heck of a lot more plasma. Besides, ST shields might just be particularly good at stopping plasma.

And let's not forget shields... In Star Trek it seems that pretty much if your shields go down, your ship explodes a few hits later. I imagine this is due less to fragility of design and more to the power of their weapons, and the UNSC has trouble piercing Covenant shields, which I'm assuming are weaker than Trek shields purely on the fact that the Haloverse is more or less rediculously underpowered.
Check out http://www.stardestroyer.net/ (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) for a detailed comparison of Star Trek and Star Wars technology. In particular, ST shields actually seem to be weaker than heavy armour plating (see Voyager finale, where armour plating makes the ship nigh-indestructible, and a dozen cubes firing everything they have leaves it at 98%).

MAC = 60 gigatons
Photon torpedo = 64 megatons theoretical maximum

A MAC shot is one thousand times more powerful than a photon torpedo! :smalleek:

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 12:22 PM

I'd hoped we were discounting Voyager...

Not sure, i dont know much bout what happens after the older star treks.

:smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallsigh:
See what I mean by stupid AIs? Really, how hard is it to make a "wait one second, copy cortana.exe, run cortana.exe" script, run it and then deactivate herself?

You ever tried to make a copy of the Library of Congress? Or of a human brain?
Also, she was designed to not be able to do that (failsafe). She has...evolved.

The important things are speed, numbers and firepower (range doesn't matter given the speeds involved). Hacking is either irrelevant or an autowin.
What is the UNSC FLT speed?
So what is the rough length of the average UNSC ship?

For cruisers? A kilometer. So 1/3 as long as a borg cube but much thinner (1/6 to 1/3 a kilometer)
Also, i think that speed is a moot point since ships move so much slower than the bullets which, on the UNSC end, are being fires by AI.

So, how much energy can a Borg shield absorb?
Whats the Antimatter payload of a torpedo?

GoC

2009-06-05, 12:24 PM

Because the Federation Starfleet, frankly, sucks. UNSC massively outguns both the Federation and the Borg; the Pillar of Autumn's magnetic accelerator cannon fires a 600 ton slug at 0.1c (10% of the speed of light, for those who don't know the notation), which produces a yield on target equivalent to 60 gigatons of TNT, far heavier hitting than any weapon in service by any of the major powers in Star Trek, the Borg included. The cubes would be pounded to scrap in minutes.
Taking everything literally in ST results in some very nasty contradictions. Let's go with author intent.

Example of contradiction: A single salvo from a fleet of 30 fed ships can raze a planet and ships have armor that can withstand that. But two capital ships crashing into eachother at 10mph will leave them very badly damaged.

You ever tried to make a copy of the Library of Congress? Or of a human brain?
Both poor analogies. Have I ever copied 60 GB of files? Yes. Could I do the same with 60 TB of files? Yes. Put the library of congress on a hard drive and I'll copy it.
Copying the human brain is diffirent because we cannot meassure the state of each neuron. With a HD we are able to read it.

For cruisers? A kilometer. So 1/3 as long as a borg cube but much thinner (1/6 to 1/3 a kilometer)
So they're likely less than a thousandth of the size of a borg cube?

Also, i think that speed is a moot point since ships move so much slower than the bullets which, on the UNSC end, are being fires by AI.
I meant strategic speed. The ability to concentrate your ships at different points in the galaxy.
And actually the borg could detect incoming shots and warp away unless the ranges are small. Will they do this? Not with the level of intelligence displayed so far...:smallannoyed:

So, how much energy can a Borg shield absorb?
Borg shields are weird. They don't so much block something as reduce it's intensity.

Whats the Antimatter payload of a torpedo?
10-100 grams I think.

Prime32

2009-06-05, 12:27 PM

Note that even most Covenant ships can be destroyed by two MAC shots. And those are the ship-mounted ones. The orbital ones can destroy flagships in one shot.

warty goblin

2009-06-05, 12:36 PM

chiasaur11

2009-06-05, 01:07 PM

We forget an important factor here.

The USNC employs at least one (immortal!) Malcolm Reynolds and multiple Jayne Cobbs.

That is a massive edge right there.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 01:08 PM

The problem is that you have to hit. The more thought I've given it, the more unguided weapons suck in space. Even a lightspeed weapon can't be particularly effective at ranges of more than perhaps a half a light second, for the simple reason that a moving target at that range will be impossible to accurately target. A weapon going a tenth of that speed has a miniscule effective range in space combat.
Considering that confrontations between the Federation and the Borg tend to take place at close visual range, and that Borg cubes are gigantic cubes three kilometers on a side, I don't see this as a problem.

warty goblin

2009-06-05, 01:14 PM

Considering that confrontations between the Federation and the Borg tend to take place at close visual range, and that Borg cubes are gigantic cubes three kilometers on a side, I don't see this as a problem.

Then it depends on how fast you can rotate your ship, which is also a non-trivial challenge, particularly seeing as I didn't notice any actual maneuvering thrusters on the Pillar.

Prime32

2009-06-05, 01:44 PM

Then it depends on how fast you can rotate your ship, which is also a non-trivial challenge, particularly seeing as I didn't notice any actual maneuvering thrusters on the Pillar.
Keyes earned his fame by using some fancy manouevering to trick a Covenant vessel into firing on itself.

Apart from manouvering thrusters they have what are basically bombs attached to parts of the hull, which are detonated to provide dramatic shifts in trajectory.

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 01:46 PM

So they're likely less than a thousandth of the size of a borg cube?

Borg cubes are only 28 cubic kilometers.

Borg shields are weird. They don't so much block something as reduce it's intensity.

Might work against UNSC ship-mounted guns. If the UNSC have planetary rail-weapons then its toast.

The problem is that you have to hit. The more thought I've given it, the more unguided weapons suck in space. Even a lightspeed weapon can't be particularly effective at ranges of more than perhaps a half a light second, for the simple reason that a moving target at that range will be impossible to accurately target. A weapon going a tenth of that speed has a miniscule effective range in space combat.

Your fogetting that its impossible to dodge at those speeds due to sheer stress.

Your right that the weapons arnt usualy used at ranged beyond that tho (at least not the small ones) but since in star trek ships tend to shoot each other from what look like a few hundred kilometers at best this isnt a problem for the UNSC.

Also, the bigger MAC guns (still ships, but non-light semi-fixed implacements) fire much bigger and faster projectiles. About the requivelent to 135,010 kilograms of antimatter making a boom.
I used the calculator at http://www.edwardmuller.com to help figure that out.

GoC

2009-06-05, 04:28 PM

Borg cubes are only 28 cubic kilometers.

And the UNSC cruiser you mentioned is 1km by 1/6km by 1/3km, right? (a very sturdy looking ship I imagine) Halve that due to the fact it's not a perfect cuboid and you end up with 1/36 of a cubic kilometer. Which is 1008th of the size of a borg cube.

Note that I'm being rather generous here. They likely have a volume of around a four thousandth of a cube or less.

And before you ask: Yes, a single borg cube DOES outmass the entire dominion fleet. Blame the writers

Ravens_cry

2009-06-05, 05:18 PM

Because the Federation Starfleet, frankly, sucks. UNSC massively outguns both the Federation and the Borg; the Pillar of Autumn's magnetic accelerator cannon fires a 600 ton slug at 0.1c
If it hits. A standard Starfleet starship can out run that without even going into Warp (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Impulse_drive). Your uber weapon is not so uber when it can be out run.

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 05:21 PM

And the UNSC cruiser you mentioned is 1km by 1/6km by 1/3km, right? (a very sturdy looking ship I imagine) Halve that due to the fact it's not a perfect cuboid and you end up with 1/36 of a cubic kilometer. Which is 1008th of the size of a borg cube.

Note that I'm being rather generous here. They likely have a volume of around a four thousandth of a cube or less.

And before you ask: Yes, a single borg cube DOES outmass the entire dominion fleet. Blame the writers

Yes, ok. But how is that cube going to use that size to be anything but a very big target?

I think a cooler fight would be 1 Forerunner ship VS 100 Borg Cubes.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/f/fa/High_Charitypic.jpg

That thing is about 350 km wide at its semi-sphere bit and has a city inside of it along side an artificial star. The entire thing is capable of hyperspace travel.
It is being powered by a single 14km long forerunner ship.
That ship is being kept at partial spin because its core produces too much power for the city to handle when fully active.

If it hits. A standard Starfleet starship can out run that without even going into Warp. Your uber weapon is not so uber when it can be out run.
Weapon fires. Your ship speeds up. Your ships crew is turned to mush.
Keep in mind that Warp Speed, extrapolating from speeds and times on that page, is less than the speed of light by nearly 100,000 km/sec.

The biggest UNSC ships could theoreticly hold a Super MAC, which fires a much bigger projectile at .4c rather than .01c

stcfg

2009-06-05, 06:34 PM

I'm a fan of the borg beaming strategy, except instead of beaming into space, they would beam their enemies sans weapons on their own ship to be assimilated. That's usually their default strategy.

The reason they don't usually do that as much is because trek shields block transporters. Since UNSC ships don't have shields, they're pretty much at the mercy of transports.

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 06:54 PM

How far away do those teleporters work at and why dont the borg just fight the federation on planet surfaces where you dont have the resources to shield?

Hmm...If a single AI-carrying spartan got onto a Borg ship then they would use that same technology to space the Borg armies.
If the Borg tried that beam up and assimilate thing on Spartans that seems like the likely outcome. The Borg also wouldnt know better than to try that having never encountered Spartans.

Prime32

2009-06-05, 06:59 PM

Hmm...If a single AI-carrying spartan got onto a Borg ship then they would use that same technology to space the Borg armies.
If the Borg tried that beam up and assimilate thing on Spartans that seems like the likely outcome. The Borg also wouldnt know better than to try that having never encountered Spartans.
A cube full of Borg drones is nothing compared to The Library. :smallamused:

Finn Solomon

2009-06-05, 07:28 PM

We forget an important factor here.

The USNC employs at least one (immortal!) Malcolm Reynolds and multiple Jayne Cobbs.

That is a massive edge right there.

Why is there even a debate? UNSC wins, hands down.

GoC

2009-06-05, 07:30 PM

Yes, ok. But how is that cube going to use that size to be anything but a very big target?
Supposedly? Ridiculous firepower. 1000x the size means 1000x the weaponry and shields.

Weapon fires. Your ship speeds up. Your ships crew is turned to mush.
Inertial dampers and gravity generators.

Keep in mind that Warp Speed, extrapolating from speeds and times on that page, is less than the speed of light by nearly 100,000 km/sec.
Warp speed is weird. It's nonlinear

How far away do those teleporters work at and why dont the borg just fight the federation on planet surfaces where you dont have the resources to shield?
ST writers are idiots? With the technology the Fed has it could steamroll almost every other sci-fi out there.
You know what? The "reassemble" stage isn't even required. They could beam up an army and output a block of carbon, some water and trace minerals.

If the Borg tried that beam up and assimilate thing on Spartans that seems like the likely outcome. The Borg also wouldnt know better than to try that having never encountered Spartans.
They could just beam the spartan into a sealed room minus his armor and zap him unconcious. Enphasis on "could".

As you can tell I'm rather unsatisfied with the lack of attention the writers pay to plotholes.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 10:00 PM

Stormthorn

2009-06-05, 10:36 PM

Supposedly? Ridiculous firepower. 1000x the size means 1000x the weaponry and shields.

Inertial dampers and gravity generators.

Warp speed is weird. It's nonlinear

ST writers are idiots? With the technology the Fed has it could steamroll almost every other sci-fi out there.
You know what? The "reassemble" stage isn't even required. They could beam up an army and output a block of carbon, some water and trace minerals.

They could just beam the spartan into a sealed room minus his armor and zap him unconcious. Enphasis on "could".

As you can tell I'm rather unsatisfied with the lack of attention the writers pay to plotholes.

A: Just becuase it can have more weapons doesnt mean it does.
B: Why would they beam a Spartan without his armor? That owuld require them knowing what spartans where and being capable of beaming one thing but not another when their is 0 space between them.
C: I suppose an Inertial Dampner could work. Be useful as a shield too.

They can beat almost any "hard" sci-fi universe, but among soft sci-fi and most space opera, sending the United Federation of Planets against most powers is like dispatching a child to kill an armed Marine
I got this weird image of Captian Picard roaring in fury as he fires a phaser out of each hand into an onrushing wave of Khorn Berserkers.

chiasaur11

2009-06-05, 10:44 PM

A: Just becuase it can have more weapons doesnt mean it does.
B: Why would they beam a Spartan without his armor? That owuld require them knowing what spartans where and being capable of beaming one thing but not another when their is 0 space between them.
C: I suppose an Inertial Dampner could work. Be useful as a shield too.

I got this weird image of Captian Picard roaring in fury as he fires a phaser out of each hand into an onrushing wave of Khorn Berserkers.

Kirk, of course, would handle the problem with his fists.

Ganurath

2009-06-05, 10:59 PM

Humanity wins. Like all Star Trek shields, the Borg shields are energy fields shaped like the ship, and anchored to it by the shield generator within the ship. If kinetic force impacts the shield, it effectively impacts the ship for purposes of shaky-movement, but not so much for breaky-damage. This is why microdebris isn't an issue, but Worf punching out a drone is.

The UNSC primarily uses kinetic projectiles. Borg shields are worthless against UNSC weapons. The best they could hope to do is teleport some drones on board before dying and getting torn a new one. Those drones would then be detected by the onboard AI and be introduced to Genre Savvy tactics. Personal shields, say hello to ballistic turrets. Suck on depleted uranium.

The worst-case scenario for the UNSC is the Borg making it to a planet and beaming down before getting splattered. Even if they went unnoticed for a while, conservation of matter would limit the forces they could build up, and it would still end with either a preemptive orbital bombardment if they're seen coming, a decisive victory for the defenders if they attack a target with sufficient defenses, or the UNSC losing the target before they waste the site from orbit, followed by thorough scans for survivors and more orbital assault.

GoC

2009-06-05, 11:10 PM

No, they couldn't do all the fancy transporter tricks, because transporters are blocked by rock, metal, and even magnetic fields, and UNSC ships are encased in ludicrous amounts of armor and use gigantic electromagnets in their weapons. :smallsigh: And the Federation is positively low-end as sci-fi powers go; they certainly could not "steamroll almost every other sci-fi out there." They can beat almost any "hard" sci-fi universe, but among soft sci-fi and most space opera, sending the United Federation of Planets against most powers is like dispatching a child to kill an armed Marine.
Of course they can't defeat them all (or many of them at all)! I said that in theory they could if they actually used their tech properly.
Why?
This: Time travel+strong AI+replicators/teleporters
A deadly combo. To beat that you need all three as well.
All the planet/star destroying weapons and the one-off tech solutions are just a bonus.

It amazed me how they completely ignored the implications of the teleporting bullet gun in that DS9 episode... or the replicating mines.:smallsigh:
Combined they'd more or less render the star trek universe unrecognizable.

A: Just becuase it can have more weapons doesnt mean it does.
B: Why would they beam a Spartan without his armor? That owuld require them knowing what spartans where and being capable of beaming one thing but not another when their is 0 space between them.
C: I suppose an Inertial Dampner could work. Be useful as a shield too.
A. Well alright. It was just a hypothesis. Make up your own if you have a more feasable one.
B. They can beam up soldiers and remove their weapons during transport (including holstered ones). Beaming someone and removing their armor isn't much of a stretch.

Note: Transporters are not blocked by metals, rock or magnetic fields as evidenced by teleportation from Earth to spaceships and by teleportation through spaceship hull and from places slightly undergroud.

Ganurath: Isn't it amazing that Star Trek ships are both completely immune to and would be completely obliterated by relatavistic weaponry?
Any debate about Star Trek is impossible without OP rulings and defining a canon hierarchy (by episode number and time of event for instance).

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-05, 11:53 PM

Note: Transporters are not blocked by metals, rock or magnetic fields as evidenced by teleportation from Earth to spaceships and by teleportation through spaceship hull and from places slightly undergroud.
They are defeated by great thicknesses of rock and metal (note the inability to transport the Vulcan high council from their chambers in the latest movie, just to name the most recent of many, many examples) and UNSC ships are heavily armored in extremely dense material. They are also defeated by the magnetic pole of a planet, though I'll have to dig to find which episode that was in.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 12:23 AM

Weapon fires. Your ship speeds up. Your ships crew is turned to mush.
Keep in mind that Warp Speed, extrapolating from speeds and times on that page, is less than the speed of light by nearly 100,000 km/sec.

If we are going to give the UNSC their standard toys, we are going to give the Star Trek its standard toys. This one goes by the name of Inertial Dampers. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Inertial_damper)
Simply put, it means they can still accelerate fast enough to out run the bullet without becoming bulkhead jam. Besides, Warp Speed is more then just warp one, it's not the speed limit, it is just the beginning (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Warp).

The biggest UNSC ships could theoreticly hold a Super MAC, which fires a much bigger projectile at .4c rather than .01c
They might have to enter Warp factor. . .1, for that, but they can still out run the bullet.

LurkerInPlayground

2009-06-06, 12:43 AM

One cube would run over the entire UNSC.

-Time Travel
-Phasers
-Quantum Torpedoes
-Antimatter
-Adaptability
-Warp speeds (Light speed to the 10th power)
-Thousands of troops
-Reanimate fallen comrades and enemies
-Literally stop at nothing

And that's just the one cube it would take. A fleet with half as many ships as the UNSC would have millions of soldiers and all of those advantages.

Borg, without even a fight.
One Borg Cube is a big deal for the Federation, easily posing a threat to an entire armada of ships with such exotic technologies as phasers, shields and antimatter engines.

UNSC technology is laughably pathetic compared to what the average Star Trek faction has. That's sort of the point, since the Covenant are supposed to be able to walk all over a beleaguered human race.

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 12:45 AM

I always thought that ships couldnt fight when at Warp? If so then the fact that you can go FTL doesnt mean much. That MAC round is faster than anyhting but a laser that the Borg might bring to bear on the also FTL capable human ships.

They are defeated by great thicknesses of rock and metal (note the inability to transport the Vulcan high council from their chambers in the latest movie, just to name the most recent of many, many examples) and UNSC ships are heavily armored in extremely dense material. They are also defeated by the magnetic pole of a planet, though I'll have to dig to find which episode that was in

If storng magnetic fields do mess with teleporter tech then the borg are boned since all the ships have them.

or the replicating mines
If they dont need mass imput then why not just build replicating suns? If they do need mass imput why not just make them microscopic in scale to be harder to destroy?

UNSC technology is laughably pathetic compared to what the average Star Trek faction has. That's sort of the point, since the Covenant are supposed to be able to walk all over a beleaguered human race.
Although even the covenant are impressed by our fighting spirit and tech level for only having been spacefaring since the 1960's (about 1.5 thousand years in the haloverse i think.)

But still, the averge Federation ship is laughable compared to the average UNSC one. Granted the Borg are a bigger threat but i wouldnt count the humans out offhand.

Now, what i want to know is do the Borg cubes get Spheres and do the Borg have a Queen Ship?

LurkerInPlayground

2009-06-06, 12:52 AM

I always thought that ships couldnt fight when at Warp? If so then the fact that you can go FTL doesnt mean much. That MAC round is faster than anyhting but a laser that the Borg might bring to bear on the also FTL capable human ships.
Um . . . it's been stated in the Halo-verse fiction that the precise control that the Covenant has over their FTL posed a significant strategic advantage.

That is, they could pop up where they wanted to, whereas human ships popped at their location more randomly and then had to course-correct using less exotic propulsion. Moreover, the Covenant were generally stealthier because it was difficult to detect FTL movements and could attack without needing to rally in an obvious location within the same system. Star Trek ships, on average, have both superior detection and control.

A MAC round is a glorified bullet that has to be fired across a gulf measured in kilometers while aided by computer-generated firing solutions. Just about any beam weapon in the Star Trek universe travels at lightspeed or sublight speeds and are aimed by superior computers. Barring that, they're just as or more destructive than the plasma that the Covenant are fond of using.

The plasma alone sets UNSC ships on fire. Just the shielding systems on Covenant ships are generally enough that they give better than they get.

The average Federation ship outclasses a UNSC ship in terms of maneuverability, intelligence, firepower and defense. There's simply no comparison.

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 01:02 AM

and are aimed by superior computers

That is veyr much in doubt. I think the AIs of the UNSC beat the nameless voices of the ships in Star Trek. Its probably the area where their technology is most advanced.

And yes, MAC rounds are just big bullets. Its a side effect of the halo-verse being slightly harder sci-fi than Star Trek. Lasers exist, but they are huge unwieldy overheating things only carried by select infantry or mounted on the covenents biggest ships. That said, pound for pound they easily dwarf the standard photon torpedo in both speed and power.

maneuverability, intelligence, firepower and defense.

2 out of 4. They are move maneuverable sinve they can ignore acceleration stress and they have shielding for defense.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 01:03 AM

I always thought that ships couldnt fight when at Warp? If so then the fact that you can go FTL doesnt mean much. That MAC round is faster than anyhting but a laser that the Borg might bring to bear on the also FTL capable human ships.

Both Quantum (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_torpedo) and photon torpedoes (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo) are capable of of being fired during warp.

Ganurath

2009-06-06, 01:06 AM

2 out of 4. They are move maneuverable sinve they can ignore acceleration stress and they have shielding for defense.One out of four. My previous post in the thread explains how the Borg shields aren't effective against ballistic weapons.

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 01:07 AM

Both Quantum (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_torpedo) and photon torpedoes (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo) are capable of of being fired during warp.

Hmm. Well then i guess it goes tot he borg assuming the target can be in non-warp. The borg could do warp-speed bombing runs all day and raze any non star-trek universe to ashes since by definition no one else will be able to enter warp.

If the Borg can travel at Warp 10 then they could bomb any point in the entire universe in 0 time with that. Actually...even if you could enter warp you could never defend against that. The Borg could raze the entire star-trek universe as well. Simultaniously stike every federation ship on every planet by being in every space at once.

LurkerInPlayground

2009-06-06, 01:09 AM

That is veyr much in doubt. I think the AIs of the UNSC beat the nameless voices of the ships in Star Trek. Its probably the area where their technology is most advanced.
The Federation has holographic doctors with fairly convincing personalities and the capability to manage complex tasks. Basically, they have AI too, they just don't run their battleships with them. The "smart AIs" that the UNSC does have are generally rare and difficult to make and the "dumb AI" are really far more common.

And yes, MAC rounds are just big bullets. Its a side effect of the halo-verse being slightly harder sci-fi than Star Trek. Lasers exist, but they are huge unwieldy overheating things only carried by select infantry or mounted on the covenents biggest ships. That said, pound for pound they easily dwarf the standard photon torpedo in both speed and power.
It should be noted that the Covenant ships employ lasers as point defense weapons. And even those will mess up a UNSC ship pretty well. Maybe to the UNSC, lasers are large unwieldy overheating things, but to the Covenant, they're pretty miniaturized and convenient. Apparently they just like plasma more.

The average Federation ship has some sort of exotic "phased laser" thing going for them. Whatever that means.

Also, saying that MAC guns are more powerful than photon torpedoes seems pretty much like baseless fancruft. Photon torpedoes are spammable in all the appearances they've put in and self-guided. MAC guns are giant cannons with a fair amount of cooldown time -- not to mention that they depend on the ship's turning speed to point in the right direction.

For ships that can pop-up at pointblank behind you, a MAC gun is a joke. Nevermind that in the Star Trek universe, the notion of a physical projectile is a well-known concept. There's probably a reason why it isn't used.

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 01:17 AM

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 01:18 AM

The Federation has holographic doctors with fairly convincing personalities and the capability to manage complex tasks. Basically, they have AI too, they just don't run their important ships with them. The "smart AIs" that the UNSC does have are generally rare.

It should be noted that the Covenant ships employ lasers as point defense weapons. And even those will mess up a UNSC ship pretty well. Maybe to the UNSC, lasers are large unwieldy overheating things, but to the Covenant, they're pretty miniaturized and convenient. Apparently they just like plasma more.

The average Federation ship has some sort of exotic "phased laser" thing going for them. Whatever that means.

Also, saying that MAC guns are more powerful than photon torpedoes seems pretty much like baseless fancruft. Photon torpedoes are spammable in all the appearances they've put in and self-guided. MAC guns are giant cannons with a fair amount of cooldown time -- not to mention that they depend on the ship's turning speed to point in the right direction.

For ships that can pop-up at pointblank behind you, a MAC gun is a joke.

I dont remember them using lasers for point defense and taking any ships down with them. I remember that their biggest flagships have a small battery of three lasers that they could take ships down with. Only the flagships, and they have a long charge time.

MAC guns are less spamable than torpedoes, true. But the current gen smaller ones fire three rounds in rapid succession per barrel and the bigger ones can fire once every five seconds.

But like i said, if you can fire at warp ten you could launch X torpedoes at any target in 0 time where X is the number on every borg ship in the universe.

Why that isnt done in Star Trek (and why the ships dont usualy appear at point blank range behidn the target) i dont know. Perhaps its not as possible as you imply or perhaps the writers never thought of it.

fairly convincing personalities
This i need to address on its own. This implies that Federation AIs arnt fully recognised human-computer hybrids like smart AIs are for all intents and purposes. UNSC dumb AIs have personalities too.
But the smart AIs? A single agricultral-model AI was capable of running a million seperate pieces of machinery simultaniously across a whole planet as his standard daily task load and was capable of feeling love and seeking vengance.

LurkerInPlayground

2009-06-06, 01:43 AM

I dont remember them using lasers for point defense and taking any ships down with them. I remember that their biggest flagships have a small battery of three lasers that they could take ships down with. Only the flagships, and they have a long charge time.

MAC guns are less spamable than torpedoes, true. But the current gen smaller ones fire three rounds in rapid succession per barrel and the bigger ones can fire once every five seconds.

But like i said, if you can fire at warp ten you could launch X torpedoes at any target in 0 time where X is the number on every borg ship in the universe.

Why that isnt done in Star Trek (and why the ships dont usualy appear at point blank range behidn the target) i dont know. Perhaps its not as possible as you imply or perhaps the writers never thought of it.
Doesn't matter. The lasers are pretty damaging and effective at shooting down missiles.

At any rate, I don't care about the Sci-Fi inconsistencies in either Star Trek or Halo. There are plenty in both. But the common portrayal of a MAC and photon torpedoes makes it fairly obvious that the MAC has far more limitations as a weapon. That's the point. The best ship-based weapon the UNSC can muster against the Covenant is supposed to be inferior. The point of the story is that the humans are the underdogs.

Also, precision and fuel-supply probably become an issue with torpedoes when you're literally firing it across a galaxy. It's like trying to hit the American flag on the moon with a rifle. Or for that matter, trying to hit the red spot of Jupiter. It's not going to happen.

Ships in Star Trek appear face-to-face because:
A) It's harder to outflank a ship that can easily see you coming and is just as fast and accurate as you are.
B) It's a lot more photogenic and implies the kind of social encounter that the Star Trek drama is based around. The ships are "talking." Halo is military fiction. Star Trek is a space opera.

This i need to address on its own. This implies that Federation AIs arnt fully recognised human-computer hybrids like smart AIs are for all intents and purposes. UNSC dumb AIs have personalities too.
But the smart AIs? A single agricultral-model AI was capable of running a million seperate pieces of machinery simultaniously across a whole planet as his standard daily task load and was capable of feeling love and seeking vengance.
So doesn't matter. Creativity isn't the same thing as raw processing speed. The Star Trek AI's are effectively dumb AI's of the UNSC. But that's far too academic for what amounts to nerd-fiction.

The point being that being able to replicate creativity isn't the same as being fast at a calculation. Autistic idiot-savants are a prime example of this. They can give you the square-root of anything, but ask them to manage a series of social tasks?

As far as I can tell, Star Trek computers can be fitted onto a plastic wafer.

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 02:03 AM

So doesn't matter. Creativity isn't the same thing as raw processing speed. The Star Trek AI's are effectively dumb AI's of the UNSC. But that's far too academic for what amounts to nerd-fiction.

The point being that being able to replicate creativity isn't the same as being fast at a calculation. Autistic idiot-savants are a prime example of this. They can give you the square-root of anything, but ask them to manage a series of social tasks?

As far as I can tell, Star Trek computers can be fitted onto a plastic wafer.

I mentioned speed. As in, fast enough figure out how to, then explain in detail, punching a missile out of the air. Fast enough to simultaneously run a planet. Fast enough to cover every job a human brain can do, every job a supercomputer can do, and a few hobby calculations, all at once in less time than it takes to type this.

And "Can fit onto a wafer" is pretty irrelevant. In old transformers comics, Optimus Prime's brain fit on a floppy. Small computers are nifty, but if they have less power even with a ship's worth of them, it's just a bit of pointless bragging.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 02:37 AM

According to the Next Generation tables, Warp 10 would ordinarily eequire infinite energy (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Warp_10). According to some sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttlecraft_Cochrane) a super rare form of dilithium can be used to breach this barrier but the effects are dire. Let's hope the Borg never discover this or they COULD carpet bomb the universe. I think in all fairness we can take this out of their bag of tricks though. They still use transwarp (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transwarp) though, which is basically equivalent in speed, if not technique, to warp 9.99999 (approx.) but at much greater energy efficiency then traditional warp drive.

GoC

2009-06-06, 09:46 AM

They are defeated by great thicknesses of rock and metal (note the inability to transport the Vulcan high council from their chambers in the latest movie, just to name the most recent of many, many examples) and UNSC ships are heavily armored in extremely dense material. They are also defeated by the magnetic pole of a planet, though I'll have to dig to find which episode that was in.
In the case of Vulcan high council I think it was teleport proof deliberately (makes sense as you don't want any scry and die assassins).

So they are both defeated and undefeated by a planets magnetic pole... more star trek inconsistency fun.:smallannoyed:

If they dont need mass imput then why not just build replicating suns? If they do need mass imput why not just make them microscopic in scale to be harder to destroy?
What part of "writers=morons" aren't you getting here?:smallconfused:
Same goes for this:

Hmm. Well then i guess it goes tot he borg assuming the target can be in non-warp. The borg could do warp-speed bombing runs all day and raze any non star-trek universe to ashes since by definition no one else will be able to enter warp.

2 out of 4. They are move maneuverable sinve they can ignore acceleration stress and they have shielding for defense.
It's 1 out of 4 or 4 out of 4 depending on canon rankings. I believe that it's impossible to determine the side without the OP declaring a canon ranking. Get the OP in here and we can actually start getting somewhere.

But the smart AIs? A single agricultral-model AI was capable of running a million seperate pieces of machinery simultaniously across a whole planet as his standard daily task load and was capable of feeling love and seeking vengance.
So the UNSC AIs are approaching what a true strong AI could do? Hmm... I'm beginning to like the Halo-verse.:smallsmile:

Just realized: The Fed obviously has an advantage in sensor technology. Able to detect ships lightyears away.

LurkerInPlayground: You keep assuming that the people in the Fed have basic common sense and competence. They don't.

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 10:51 AM

So the UNSC AIs are approaching what a true strong AI could do? Hmm... I'm beginning to like the Halo-verse.

This is fromt he same people that made Marathon, in which an advanced AI can do soem really crazy crap.

It's 1 out of 4 or 4 out of 4 depending on canon rankings. I believe that it's impossible to determine the side without the OP declaring a canon ranking. Get the OP in here and we can actually start getting somewhere.

True. I think a bigger problem is tactics. If the borg act like they usualy due: "We are the borg and have warped in a few thousand kilometers from your ship. We will tell you are hostile intentions then teleport onto you." then they dont stand much chance againt the UNSC. Only a few waves would get ff before the UNSC intoduced the Borg to a brand new technology, the MAC guns (which the borg helpfully put themselves right in front of) and it would be up to the borg already in the ships to finish the war.

GoC

2009-06-06, 10:59 AM

No argument from me.

So the UNSC AIs are approaching what a true strong AI could do? Hmm... I'm beginning to like the Halo-verse.:smallsmile:
Wait. I take that back. I just remembered the flood.:smallannoyed:

LurkerInPlayground

2009-06-06, 11:21 AM

LurkerInPlayground: You keep assuming that the people in the Fed have basic common sense and competence. They don't.
The Covenant is generally portrayed as stereotypical warrior-fanatics with their Grunts being dispirited slaves. Everybody is a scientifically inept dogmatist and are completely unable to innovate anything new.

It still doesn't stop them from curb-stomping the UNSC until some plot-related shenanigans show up (i.e. the Spartans, weird super-science, the Flood and the rebellion of the Elites who then suddenly turn into noble-warrior types).

I also don't understand Stormthorn's rather creepy attachment to the idea that giant rail guns (or gauss cannons or mass drivers or whatever) are somehow really going to scare The Borg when they do little more than push around a shielded Covenant ship.

The only MAC guns that really could kill a Covenant ship in one elegant shot were the giant orbital guns that existed above Threshold and Earth. And those were BIG. Really BIG. And expensive. And easily circumvented by Covenant ground troops blowing up the generators or whatever.

Basically, Stormthorn really needs to stop getting a nerd hard-on for magnetically propelled cannon balls. It's like being told by some self-defense cultist that his Ultimate Killer Ninjitsu System will let you disarm a man wielding a gun and kill him with your thumbs. All you have to do is enact technique #4 in all circumstances.

Yeah. Sure. And Katanas can cut through tanks. No really! It's been folded a thousand times!

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 02:34 PM

True. I think a bigger problem is tactics. If the borg act like they usualy due: "We are the borg and have warped in a few thousand kilometers from your ship. We will tell you are hostile intentions then teleport onto you." then they dont stand much chance againt the UNSC. Only a few waves would get ff before the UNSC intoduced the Borg to a brand new technology, the MAC guns (which the borg helpfully put themselves right in front of) and it would be up to the borg already in the ships to finish the war.
To finish the initial skirmish, certainly. But the War? No. The Borg may lose one Cube. Then the other Cubes just out run the projectile, then double back around. The MAC may be a big phallic weapon of Freudian proportions. But against the kind of manoeuvrability the Borg, or even Starfleet, have shown, it is near useless.

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 03:05 PM

To finish the initial skirmish, certainly. But the War? No. The Borg may lose one Cube. Then the other Cubes just out run the projectile, then double back around. The MAC may be a big phallic weapon of Freudian proportions. But against the kind of manoeuvrability the Borg, or even Starfleet, have shown, it is near useless.

Remember the initial post?

They only get one cube. It gets wasted, and team multiple Adam Baldwins has glorious victory.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 03:31 PM

Remember the initial post?

They only get one cube. It gets wasted, and team multiple Adam Baldwins has glorious victory.

So, basically, I'm envisioning a fleet the likes of which the UNSC only place on vital worlds like Earth, accompanied by an entourage of Spartans as per the battle's late beginning, fighting against a Borg fleet of, like, half its size.

I don't know much about what the USNC uses to protect it's home worlds, but I am betting it's more then two ships.

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 03:40 PM

Ah, right.

Missed that.

Still saying the AIs, Adam Baldwins, and Nathan Fillion as Sergeant Reynolds will win the day for the good guys, but you're probably right the cubes will be a problem.

Unless we go by mass of a fleet, in which case, as shown above, one cube gets the UNSC whole masses of ships. Thousands, in fact.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-06, 04:30 PM

[in response to super-mac gun @ 0.4c]
They might have to enter Warp factor. . .1, for that, but they can still out run the bullet.
"CAPTAIN! THERE IS AN OBJECT APPROACHING AT 1/2 IMPULSE! (assuming as mentioned earlier impulse drive can get you up to .8c) OH NOES!

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 06:12 PM

Still saying the AIs, Adam Baldwins, and Nathan Fillion as Sergeant Reynolds will win the day for the good guys, but you're probably right the cubes will be a problem.

Unless we go by mass of a fleet, in which case, as shown above, one cube gets the UNSC whole masses of ships. Thousands, in fact.
No it gets them two. It's simple math. But even so,a single photon torpedo can theoretically knock out an unshielded ship. Which if the Halo wikia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Halcyon-class_Cruiser) is to (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Marathon-class_Cruiser) be believed (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix-class_Colony_Ship), USNC vessels (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Carrier) lack. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Supercarrier)
Yeah, once the Borg figure out how to dodge super bullet, which they would have to be holding onto the idiot ball with both hands and teeth not to, USNC is going to have big problems. Then no problems.

"CAPTAIN! THERE IS AN OBJECT APPROACHING AT 1/2 IMPULSE! (assuming as mentioned earlier impulse drive can get you up to .8c) OH NOES!
I was being generous as not all starships have .8 as a top impulse. 0.5 seems a bit more standard.
Still shows how impractical the antimatter cannon is against the Borg. The missiles are just as bad. Archer Missiles use bleeding high explosives, Shiva is a nuclear warhead. Earth stopped using those after the Earth Romulan War (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Earth-Romulan_War).
The USNC is slow, badly armed, and worse protected. Unless they have some ace in the hole I don't know about, which is quite possible I admit, they are getting curb stomped.

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 06:29 PM

No it gets them two. It's simple math. But even so,a single photon torpedo can theoretically knock out an unshielded ship. Which if the Halo wikia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Halcyon-class_Cruiser) is to (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Marathon-class_Cruiser) be believed (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix-class_Colony_Ship), USNC vessels (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Carrier) lack. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Supercarrier)
Yeah, once the Borg figure out how to dodge super bullet, which they would have to be holding onto the idiot ball with both hands and teeth not to, USNC is going to have big problems. Then no problems.

I was being generous as not all starships have .8 as a top impulse. 0.5 seems a bit more standard.
Still shows how impractical the antimatter cannon is against the Borg. The missiles are just as bad. Archer Missiles use bleeding high explosives, Shiva is a nuclear warhead. Earth stopped using those after the Earth Romulan War (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Earth-Romulan_War).
The USNC is slow, badly armed, and worse protected. Unless they have some ace in the hole I don't know about, which is quite possible I admit, they are getting curb stomped.

Borg usually hold the idiot ball with both hands. Have since they first showed on Voyager. By mass I mean mass. And one cube is utterly huge to the point, as someone mentioned earlier, thousands of UNSC ships are needed to balance it mass wise. And if you don't call multiple Nathan Fillions an ace in the hole worthy of certain victory, you and I have very different views on the concept of aces.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 07:08 PM

Borg usually hold the idiot ball with both hands. Have since they first showed on Voyager. By mass I mean mass. And one cube is utterly huge to the point, as someone mentioned earlier, thousands of UNSC ships are needed to balance it mass wise. And if you don't call multiple Nathan Fillions an ace in the hole worthy of certain victory, you and I have very different views on the concept of aces.
I have found no Nathan Fillons on the Halo Pedia. An actor named Fillons who does a character, sure. But while Gunnery Sergeant Reynolds (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Reynolds) may be an excellent tactical squad leader, the only reason he has any bad assery from a strategic perspective is because of Story Gameplay segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation").
I don't care if the actor was in Firefly, his character would be dead if it weren't for the player. It is no Ace in the hole. Besides, idiot balls are for things with plots and heroes. This is a straight mash up. The borg come pre adapted (they have been facing worse for hundreds of years) to everything the USNC can through at them besides the MAC, and if the USNC have thousands of ships, they are just going to be getting in each others way. Fire the MAC, the Borg dodge, and you may just hit a friendly ship. Photon torpedoes are guided. Against the lumbering minnows of the USNC, it's practically one per kill. Not to mention the rather devastating Borg cutting beam. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam). It slices, it dices, it makes the USNC fry.

Prime32

2009-06-06, 07:34 PM

Photon torpedoes are guided. Against the lumbering minnows of the USNC, it's practically one per kill.
Covenant plasma weapons are also guided, and UNSC ships are nimble enough that a skilled pilot can trick their enemies into hitting themselves with them.

Not to mention the rather devastating Borg cutting beam. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam). It slices, it dices, it makes the USNC fry.How often is that actually used in combat? The Covenant had a similar weapon on one of their larger ships which made mincemeat of UNSC ships, but most of the ship was devoted to providing power to it (and it still had a slow rate of fire).

chiasaur11

2009-06-06, 07:54 PM

I have found no Nathan Fillons on the Halo Pedia. An actor named Fillons who does a character, sure. But while Gunnery Sergeant Reynolds (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Reynolds) may be an excellent tactical squad leader, the only reason he has any bad assery from a strategic perspective is because of Story Gameplay segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation").
I don't care if the actor was in Firefly, his character would be dead if it weren't for the player. It is no Ace in the hole. Besides, idiot balls are for things with plots and heroes. This is a straight mash up. The borg come pre adapted (they have been facing worse for hundreds of years) to everything the USNC can through at them besides the MAC, and if the USNC have thousands of ships, they are just going to be getting in each others way. Fire the MAC, the Borg dodge, and you may just hit a friendly ship. Photon torpedoes are guided. Against the lumbering minnows of the USNC, it's practically one per kill. Not to mention the rather devastating Borg cutting beam. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam). It slices, it dices, it makes the USNC fry.

Well, if you're fool enough not to accept an immortal Mal Reynolds as a massive edge, there's always AIs. The Borg want tech. They grab an AI and try to assimilate it, and the AI clobbers their networks and turns a unified hivemind into, at best, a horde of very confused Hughs.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 08:04 PM

Covenant plasma weapons are also guided, and UNSC ships are nimble enough that a skilled pilot can trick their enemies into hitting themselves with them.
Photon torpedoes are designed to attack ships with inertial dampers, that is, extremely manoeuvrable craft compared to anything from the USNC if the crew being squashed by g's is a factor, as it seems to be considering the complaints about outrunning the MAC.

How often is that actually used in combat? The Covenant had a similar weapon on one of their larger ships which made mincemeat of UNSC ships, but most of the ship was devotewd to providing power to it (and it still had a slow rate of fire). Not often, but if the wikia (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam) is to be believed, (any uber fanboys to confirm this?) it can cut open planets. With thousands of USNC ships amassing against a cube, the words we are looking for 'swath', 'wheat', and 'knife' 'butter'. Phasers and tractors beams would also come in handy. Does the USNC have anything like that?

Well, if you're fool enough not to accept an immortal Mal Reynolds as a massive edge, there's always AIs. The Borg want tech. They grab an AI and try to assimilate it, and the AI clobbers their networks and turns a unified hivemind into, at best, a horde of very confused Hughs.
In many games plot important characters are immortal, in game. In universe however, the could die, they just don't. Having the characters die would ruin the story, so they live on. One sees this in plenty of RPG and more story intensive action adventure. Like how you couldn't kill Elvis in Perfect Dark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Dark). AI are an advantage for USNC, I grant.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-06-06, 08:44 PM

The Covenant is generally portrayed as stereotypical warrior-fanatics with their Grunts being dispirited slaves. Everybody is a scientifically inept dogmatist and are completely unable to innovate anything new.

This is based off of ... something. Possibly.

I have no idea where that ones coming from, the best you have is that grunts were intended to be comic relief. Elites always displayed tactical aptitude, Brutes don't seem very clever but are ridiculously tough, while hunters are a worm based hivemind of bizarrely destructive power. Infantry in the Trek-verse is generally shown to be more of the same and easily defeatable by any force which has decided to actually raise something which can resemble an army.

The Borg have fought glorified security guards, nothing more nothing less.

It still doesn't stop them from curb-stomping the UNSC until some plot-related shenanigans show up (i.e. the Spartans, weird super-science, the Flood and the rebellion of the Elites who then suddenly turn into noble-warrior types).

There was nothing sudden about it and the elites weren't as well positioned or equipped as you might hope. Almost all of the elite fleet was blown up by a nuke that a UNSC commander had shenaniganed into the picture, not expecting the elites to wind up on their side.

Weird super science fits in the picture easily, need I remind you that they're fighting TREK based adversaries? I thought so.

I also don't understand Stormthorn's rather creepy attachment to the idea that giant rail guns (or gauss cannons or mass drivers or whatever) are somehow really going to scare The Borg when they do little more than push around a shielded Covenant ship.

This is ... I don't know. It's the debate equivalent of a finger painting. You go girl? :smallwink:

The only MAC guns that really could kill a Covenant ship in one elegant shot were the giant orbital guns that existed above Threshold and Earth. And those were BIG. Really BIG. And expensive. And easily circumvented by Covenant ground troops blowing up the generators or whatever.

Basically, Stormthorn really needs to stop getting a nerd hard-on for magnetically propelled cannon balls. It's like being told by some self-defense cultist that his Ultimate Killer Ninjitsu System will let you disarm a man wielding a gun and kill him with your thumbs. All you have to do is enact technique #4 in all circumstances.

It is true that most of them can't do an elegant one shot kill ... against a flagship. The regular covenant cruisers can, however be one shotted with the basic MAC gun. Seeing as no standard weaponry cuts through another ship in one shot in trek, I don't think that the obsession was unjustified.

Again you follow tenuous reasoning with a questionable analogy, proving only your lack of true parable-fu.

Yeah. Sure. And Katanas can cut through tanks. No really! It's been folded a thousand times!

I lol'd :smallbiggrin:

Spoilered for irrelavence:

Hmm. Well then i guess it goes to the borg assuming the target can be in non-warp. The borg could do warp-speed bombing runs all day and raze any non star-trek universe to ashes since by definition no one else will be able to enter warp.

If the Borg can travel at Warp 10 then they could bomb any point in the entire universe in 0 time with that. Actually...even if you could enter warp you could never defend against that. The Borg could raze the entire star-trek universe as well. Simultaniously stike every federation ship on every planet by being in every space at once.

They still wouldn't be able to take down the Empire (Star Wars) at least by that way.

(Gravity Well generators.)

Stormthorn

2009-06-06, 09:38 PM

The Covenant is generally portrayed as stereotypical warrior-fanatics with their Grunts being dispirited slaves. Everybody is a scientifically inept dogmatist and are completely unable to innovate anything new.

It still doesn't stop them from curb-stomping the UNSC until some plot-related shenanigans show up (i.e. the Spartans, weird super-science, the Flood and the rebellion of the Elites who then suddenly turn into noble-warrior types).

I also don't understand Stormthorn's rather creepy attachment to the idea that giant rail guns (or gauss cannons or mass drivers or whatever) are somehow really going to scare The Borg when they do little more than push around a shielded Covenant ship.

The only MAC guns that really could kill a Covenant ship in one elegant shot were the giant orbital guns that existed above Threshold and Earth. And those were BIG. Really BIG. And expensive. And easily circumvented by Covenant ground troops blowing up the generators or whatever.

Basically, Stormthorn really needs to stop getting a nerd hard-on for magnetically propelled cannon balls. It's like being told by some self-defense cultist that his Ultimate Killer Ninjitsu System will let you disarm a man wielding a gun and kill him with your thumbs. All you have to do is enact technique #4 in all circumstances.

Yeah. Sure. And Katanas can cut through tanks. No really! It's been folded a thousand times!

I keep bringing them up because you keep dismissing them out of hand. You seem to think that a biggo hunk of metal going very fast cant cause any damage. I think you fail to understand just how fast c is.
Yes in the scale of space combat they are slow. But much faster than a Photon Torpedo (which also happens to be patheticly weak on average*).

I have no idea what your on about with the katanas and ninjitsu. They arnt folded a thousand times, although they may well have a thousand layers (fold once, two layers. Fold twice, four layers. And so on).

Phasers and tractors beams would also come in handy. Does the USNC have anything like that?
Tractor beams? No. UNSC is soft sci-fi rather than Space Opera. That said,the Covenant have transporters and gravity lifts and whatnot.

*When compared to the mainline weapons of the Covenant and UNSC fleets. A ship-based plasma weapon can destroy a city in seconds and their lasers can cut clean through entire ships (although they recharge very slowly). UNSC have nukes and MACs. Even if the power of a photon torpedo was the highest number i could find online (6 hundred something gigatons) its still patheticly weak because it blast radious (based upon the size of the Enterprise) is only 50 meters at very best. (a bit over 1/5 the length of the Enterpise form nose to tail-engine)

Ravens_cry

2009-06-06, 10:28 PM

Texas_Ben

2009-06-06, 10:58 PM

How often is that actually used in combat? The Covenant had a similar weapon on one of their larger ships which made mincemeat of UNSC ships, but most of the ship was devoted to providing power to it (and it still had a slow rate of fire).
We are talking about a universe in which your run-of-the-mill ship has enough power to convert energy into matter... and has a device to do so in everyone's bedroom! Do you have any idea the monstrous amounts of power replicators must consume?
That said, it stands to reason that the borg ships are simply much much much better at generating power than Haloverse ships.

And they have no sheilds. In Star Trek it's about pounding down the sheilds, and then getting in the one shot that destroys the target. With no sheilds, heh.
This.

Also, I saw cutting lasers and destroying cities mentioned...
Well as to the cutting lasers, well the borg have those too, except they *don't* take a long time to recharge.

And destroying cities in seconds? Trivial. Star Trek doesn't think twice about destroying or otherwise rendering uninhabitable planets or even entire systems. I think there was one episode of TNG where for some reason or another some guys virus-bombed or something-ed this planet for some plot-related reason or another, and it wasn't even a big deal. They were just all "oh yeah these klingon dudes just wiped out this planet let's keep searching for the macguffin".

I mean really, arguing that the UNSC beats the borg is like arguing that the UNSC beats the covenant... and really, we see how that turned out.

At any rate, Super Mac guns are easy to deal with. Transport some borgs down to disable the power facilities, and they go offline. (I believe that transporter range is somewhere in the vicinity of 40,000 kilometres)

lisiecki

2009-06-07, 12:33 AM

lisiecki

2009-06-07, 12:37 AM

Doesn't matter. The lasers are pretty damaging and effective at shooting down missiles.

"lasers? No laserscould get past even our navigational deflectors!" (

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 09:40 AM

UNSC technology is laughably pathetic compared to what the average Star Trek faction has. That's sort of the point, since the Covenant are supposed to be able to walk all over a beleaguered human race.
Prove it. The Covenant has nothing to do with Star Trek; being pitiful next to Covenant firepower is not equivalent to being helpless before everything else as well. The Covenant is vastly more powerful than anything in Star Trek; all the Trek powers would be just as helpless if not more so before a Covenant onslaught. UNSC performance against the Covenant says absolutely nothing about their performance against Star Trek powers. Using humanity's position against the Covenant to make assertions about their position against the Borg is a total non sequitur.

Your entire argument centers around the entirely groundless assumption that the Borg and the Covenant are on even footing, adding a second step in order to disguise the fact that you're making assertions without evidence. Well, I didn't just fall off the back of a truck here; you're going to have to do better than that.

No it gets them two. It's simple math. But even so,a single photon torpedo can theoretically knock out an unshielded ship. Which if the Halo wikia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Halcyon-class_Cruiser) is to (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Marathon-class_Cruiser) be believed (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix-class_Colony_Ship), USNC vessels (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Carrier) lack. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Supercarrier)
As the Borg are fond of pointing out, irrelevant. A single photon torpedo can knock out an unshielded Federation ship. Which is, surprise surprise, not a big deal, considering that if power to the structural integrity fields fail, a Federation ship will knock itself out without any outside assistance at all. Their ships might as well be made of papier-mache for all the punishment they can take when unshielded.

UNSC warships are built like tanks, only more so. There is no comparison.

YES!

Well unless you count photon torpedos that explode with the force of 690 gigatons of TNT.
No, actually, they don't. Cite your source, though; this should be amusing.
"lasers? No laserscould get past even our navigational deflectors!" (
No, those lasers couldn't get past their navigational deflectors. Presuming that because a relatively primitive power's lasers couldn't defeat the Enterprise, no lasers can defeat Trek ships no matter the power output behind them is a ludicrous no-limits fallacy. Furthermore, we don't even have to resort to pointing out the flawed reasoning, because the Borg use laser-based weapons, and have employed them to damage and destroy Federation starships.

Ravens_cry

2009-06-07, 10:13 AM

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 10:50 AM

A plasma (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Torpedo) apparently has possibility to destroy a USNC ship with one hit.
Irrelevant. The Borg are not using Covenant plasma weapons, and you have not shown any basis for comparison between the two.
A single, ordinary, photon torpedo (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo) can destroy a city. And that's the lower end.
A single, ordinary photon torpedo can be fired to the surface of a planet and have a visible yield approximately equal to a hand grenade. :smallamused: Interestingly, in Voyager season 3, episode 69, "Scorpion part II," 7 of 9 states that the yield of a photon torpedo is 200 isotons. Since "iso" in the Greek means one, we know the yield of a photon torpedo to be equivalent to 200 tons of TNT, less than the Little Boy atomic bomb. As long as we're taking character statements at face value. :smalltongue:

More seriously, in TNG Season 7, Ep# 164, "Pegasus," the entire photon torpedo complement of the Enterprise D is incapable of significantly damaging a hollow asteroid, putting the yield of individual torpedoes in the range of low hundreds of kilotons.

Prime32

2009-06-07, 10:50 AM

A plasma (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Torpedo) apparently has possibility to destroy a USNC ship with one hit. A single, ordinary, photon torpedo (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo) can destroy a city. And that's the lower end.
A group of Covenant ships firing their plasma weapons can render a planet uninhabitable (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Glassing). It should also be noted that a plasma torpedo is much larger than a photon torpedo.

Also, the UNSC have a nuke powerful enough to destroy a planet (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/NOVA_Bomb).

GoC

2009-06-07, 11:17 AM

The Covenant is vastly more powerful than anything in Star Trek; all the Trek powers would be just as helpless if not more so before a Covenant onslaught.
Retract this before someone else sees it and falls over laughing.:smalltongue:

Anyway, we need a canon ranking. Like I said ship power varies from "raze planet in a minute" to "hand grenade".

... And my new-found respect for Halo has just been extinguished by the Nova bomb.:smallannoyed:
Yep, there's no way Halo is hard sci-fi. We have a simple case of does-not-compute. If it's fusion it can't destroy the planet.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 11:51 AM

Retract this before someone else sees it and falls over laughing.:smalltongue:
I will not, because it's true. Star Trek's general tech level is below that of the Haloverse by a significant margin. Their toys are visually fancy, but measurably less powerful.

GoC

2009-06-07, 11:52 AM

I will not, because it's true. Star Trek's general tech level is below that of the Haloverse by a significant margin. Their toys are visually fancy, but measurably less powerful.

One letter: Q

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 11:58 AM

One letter: Q
Are you seriously suggesting Q would interfere on behalf of the Borg?

Prime32

2009-06-07, 11:59 AM

If it's fusion it can't destroy the planet.Um... why?

GoC

2009-06-07, 12:01 PM

Are you seriously suggesting Q would interfere on behalf of the Borg?

Here's your post:

The Covenant is vastly more powerful than anything in Star Trek; all the Trek powers would be just as helpless if not more so before a Covenant onslaught.

Calculations indicate...
Fusion: 645,000,000,000,000 J/kg
Energy for destruction of Earth assuming maximum efficiency: 2.3×10^32 J
Efficiency of explosion compared to controlled gradual removal and acceleration of Earth's mass<10%
Percentage of fusion bomb that's actual fuel<10%
Total mass of bomb: 3x10^17 kg or three million billion tons

This is generous.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 12:07 PM

... And my new-found respect for Halo has just been extinguished by the Nova bomb.:smallannoyed:
Yep, there's no way Halo is hard sci-fi. We have a simple case of does-not-compute. If it's fusion it can't destroy the planet.
Why? Need I remind you that stars are, in fact, gigantic fusion reactions? Fusion is quite capable of destroying planets if the reaction is large enough.

Need I also remind you that Federation impulse engines are powered by fusion reactors, and in fact fusion reactors are the only source of power the saucer section has? And yet the saucer section is entirely capable of combat when separated from the engineering section, meaning that the phasers evidently don't have the power throughput to use the warp core? (Not to mention that in TNG Season 3, Ep# 74, "The Best of Both Worlds part I," Riker objected to separating the saucer section because the loss of the saucer's impulse power would limit the combat capabilities of the ship, proving that fusion power is, in fact, a significant part of Federation starships' power sources.)

Yes, the UNSC uses nuclear weapons. That doesn't mean their nuclear weapons aren't powerful; they have simply created a better bomb then we are currently capable of building. The assumption that we, currently, as in right now, have developed the absolute maximum limits of nuclear weapons and that further advancement in destructive power must necessarily be through some form of exotic weapons system is absurd.

Here's your post:
We don't actually know what the Q are capable of. Q himself claims to be omnipotent, but whether or not he can be trusted aside, he quite clearly is not; on several occasions we have witnessed limitations to the power of the Q, up to and including members of the Continuum being killed. The Q are an unknown quantity, and one unlikely to do anything anyway.

GoC

2009-06-07, 12:09 PM

I edited this into my previous post:

Calculations indicate...
Fusion: 645,000,000,000,000 J/kg
Energy for destruction of Earth assuming maximum efficiency: 2.3×10^32 J
Efficiency of explosion compared to controlled gradual removal and acceleration of Earth's mass<10%
Percentage of fusion bomb that's actual fuel<10%
Total mass of bomb: 3x10^17 kg or three million billion tons

This is generous.

btw: Where did you get the idea that the saucer runs on fusion?
But anyway that's irrelevant. Star Trek is very soft sci-fi and knows it. I was just pointing out that I don't think Halo is hard sci-fi.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 12:17 PM

btw: Where did you get the idea that the saucer runs on fusion?
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Impulse_drive
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Impulse_reactor

And of course Halo isn't hard sci-fi. The various spaceborne powers are capable of superluminal travel. :smalltongue:

GoC

2009-06-07, 12:22 PM

We don't actually know what the Q are capable of. Q himself claims to be omnipotent, but whether or not he can be trusted aside, he quite clearly is not; on several occasions we have witnessed limitations to the power of the Q, up to and including members of the Continuum being killed. The Q are an unknown quantity, and one unlikely to do anything anyway.
Q can time travel and create alternate realities. Don't like them? Well there's also that race with Q-like members that killed an advanced race of a few hundred billion members with a thought. Or those unknown machine dudes who created V-Ger more or less on a whim. Or the ones that created the sun eater. Or the hyper-advanced ones descended from Earth dinosaurs who can teleport entire starships great distances and can phase out of reality.
There are a LOT of one-off races with amazing power.

The only limitations on the Q that I know of are other Q and their weapons.

It doesn't matter that they're unlikely to do anything. All that matters is that your statement that the Covenant can steamroll anything in the Star Trek universe is false and should be retracted.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 12:30 PM

Q can time travel and create alternate realities. Don't like them? Well there's also that race with Q-like members that killed an advanced race of a few hundred billion members with a thought. Or those unknown machine dudes who created V-Ger more or less on a whim. Or the ones that created the sun eater. Or the hyper-advanced ones descended from Earth dinosaurs who can teleport entire starships great distances and can phase out of reality.
There are a LOT of one-off races with amazing power.

The only limitations on the Q that I know of are other Q and their weapons.

It doesn't matter that they're unlikely to do anything. All that matters is that your statement that the Covenant can steamroll anything in the Star Trek universe is false and should be retracted.
The Q are not the subject of the debate. Regardless, we don't actually know that they can do any of these things; Q's more amazing interactions with the Federation tend to leave no lasting consequences, leaving open the possibility of illusion rather than actual time-travel to the formation of Earth and so forth. This is reinforced by the events of the Q civil war, in which the crew of Voyager clearly perceived an environment similar to the U.S. Civil War rather than what was actually happening, proving that the Q do in fact have large scale and very effective powers of illusion, possibly holographic in nature rather than supernatural as Q would have the Federation believe.

Even so, since they are an unknown quantity, I will amend my statement to any of the primary interstellar nations.

GoC

2009-06-07, 12:34 PM

Even so, since they are an unknown quantity, I will amend my statement to any of the primary interstellar nations.

Thank you.
And the Q can definitely time travel. Remember their first encounter? Illusions can't explain the fact that they had an entire trial in no time at all.
I vote that in order to decide who the winner of this thread should be we have our avatars battle to the death!:smallcool:

Prime32

2009-06-07, 12:40 PM

Thank you.
And the Q can definitely time travel. Remember their first encounter? Illusions can't explain the fact that they had an entire trial in no time at all.
...they could if they were purely mental. Didn't O' Brien experience years of virtual prison in hours on DS9?

Dinvan

2009-06-07, 01:28 PM

Lupy

2009-06-07, 01:36 PM

This thread is obscene.

The Borg have trillions of soldiers available and time travel (whether you like it or not).

These two things alone make this debate pointless.

lisiecki

2009-06-07, 01:37 PM

...they could if they were purely mental. Didn't O' Brien experience years of virtual prison in hours on DS9?

Well we also know that he can travel incredibly long distances in incredibly short periods of time. From Earth to the Delta Quadrant in less than 8 years.

Prime32

2009-06-07, 02:03 PM

This thread is obscene.

The Borg have trillions of soldiers available and time travel (whether you like it or not).

These two things alone make this debate pointless.
How have the Borg ever been defeated then?

chiasaur11

2009-06-07, 02:05 PM

How have the Borg ever been defeated then?

The fact they're all morons?
A factor curiously ignored by their defenders.

GoC

2009-06-07, 02:07 PM

The fact they're all morons?

I recall pointing that out about four or five times in this thread...

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-07, 02:48 PM

I wrote a nice long piece about how the Borg would win easily because they can assimilate any "superior" tech.

Then I remembered all the previous replies.....this is just a penis fencing contest between fan boys.....or girls *shudder*.
This only works if they can defeat the users of the superior tech in order to assimilate them. Just sayin'.

Dinvan

2009-06-07, 03:27 PM

This only works if they can defeat the users of the superior tech in order to assimilate them. Just sayin'.

Not true, they only need to have one drone infect a piece of technology with nanites for it to be reverse engineered and then sent back to the hive mind. Rail cannon technology is primitive compared to most treck tech as a lot of the energy weapons in trek are based on "I KILL YOU BY DISINTIGRATION"

Their transporter technology is far better than other species due to the fact they can beam through shields, some magnetic "field" won’t really stop that.

Anyway, my entire point is moot due to the fact that both universes operate under different "Imadethistuffupbybasingitonrealstuffscience".

Prime32

2009-06-07, 03:29 PM

chiasaur11

2009-06-07, 04:06 PM

Plus, as some have mentioned, they might grab a smart AI in the assimilating bit.

And one Haloverse AI could turn the collective's brain matter into swiss cheese pretty darn quick.

Dervag

2009-06-07, 05:51 PM

Not true, they only need to have one drone infect a piece of technology with nanites for it to be reverse engineered and then sent back to the hive mind. Rail cannon technology is primitive compared to most treck tech as a lot of the energy weapons in trek are based on "I KILL YOU BY DISINTIGRATION"Ah, but if my rail cannon can put an armor-piercing round through one side of your Borg cube and out the other, then your "advanced" disintegration weapon may not be more effective.

Which is not to say that my rail cannon can actually do that, but it's certainly possible to imagine one that can. The point here is that "my tech uses more exotic principles than yours" does not automatically translate into "my tech gives me weapons superior to yours."

A derringer is based on more advanced technology than a medieval arbalest; that does not make the derringer a more powerful or effective weapon.

I don't have an opinion on who would win. I just think that the Borg are overrated by people who expect too much of their vaunted talent for assimilation.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-06-07, 08:15 PM

Nukes? NUKES?!
Nukes are pathetic. Nukes are old school. The only Star Trek they ever saw use was Enterprise. Everyone else uses antimatter warheads or worse. The super MAC is nasty, if it hits you. But it's slow. I know, writers have no sense of scale. Only in Star Trek is 40% the speed of light slow. But with inertial dampers, accelerating to full impulse is only going to give a good old fashioned Star Trek lean to the crew.

Considering the fact that a single nuke wiped out the population of a planet, an enormous fleet and generally ****ed things up from a VERY sub-optimal point of detonation I'm pretty sure we can discount anything you say about them.

Also, "only in Star Trek"? Star Trek moves really slowly and with little sense of style. It had to be said. Keep in mind that dodging isn't as easy as you might think, there are always going to be ways to hit if you have the best computational mind imaginable

Star Treks basic power levels are more powerful then all but the most powerful of Halo's.

Unfounded pseudo speculation

The Borg were Star Treks curb stompers when at their best. The USNC is just not the same power level.

More unfounded pseudo speculation

And they have no sheilds. In Star Trek it's about pounding down the sheilds, and then getting in the one shot that destroys the target. With no sheilds, heh.

It has already been mentioned that armour plating has proven to be more effective then shields in Trek. The fact of the matter is that everyone in the Trekverse fights (basically) the same way, so it's an intergalactic penis size competition. When faced with a new adversary and one who show some actual innovation at that ... well.

Except for the super MAC, normal USNC weapons wouldn't scratch the paint on the Borg with the sheilds up. Nuclear weapons just don't have the power, the chemical explosive warheads even less.

Yeah, the fact that they have many many weapons that can punch straight through is irrelevant. What matters is what you think.

Lupy

2009-06-07, 08:31 PM

This thread is obscene.

The Borg have trillions of soldiers available and time travel (whether you like it or not).

These two things alone make this debate pointless.

The borg aren't Daleks, they can't go back in the blink of an eye, but they can build another time pod like they used in First Contact during the war, and without the Enterprise there to defeat them, crush Earth in the past.

GoldDragon

2009-06-08, 12:43 AM

Why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that the Borg Cube can regenerate itself? Sure, it's possible that you can punch a giant hole in it. It's just gonna fix itself while still fighting.

Verruckt

2009-06-08, 12:45 AM

This thread is obscene.

The Borg have trillions of soldiers available and time travel (whether you like it or not).

These two things alone make this debate pointless.

And Haloverse has obscenely powerful AIs, they're not Minds, but they would brain melt the Borg collective nine ways till Tuesday and the Borg wouldn't do a damn thing about it because they are Really Really Stupid.

All the talk about ship speeds and weapons power is moot. The Borg used time travel once with difficulty, and even then they didn't do it well. One side is a species that is irrevocably linked technologically, the other has Techno Gods that specialize in taking computer systems and bending them over a metaphorical table, of course the UNSC win, though not because of the Spartans or the MAC guns, but because of the AIs.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-08, 12:49 AM

Why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that the Borg Cube can regenerate itself? Sure, it's possible that you can punch a giant hole in it. It's just gonna fix itself while still fighting.
So you punch more holes in it until you hit something vital and it blows up. It's not like they don't have two railguns for every cube.

Viv

2009-06-08, 02:00 AM

Why haven't the Borg, with their thousands of years' experience in getting stabbed in the face by hostile aliens, figured out the trick yet?

The fact that the Borg fail to adapt to edged melee weapons indicates that there are limits on what their "adaptation" technology lets them cope with.

I would argue that it's not because they can't adapt by adding armor, it's because they choose not to. The loss of drones means roughly nothing to the Borg, and the drones may operate in their intended fashions better without said armor.

On the other hand, it might just be that the Borg are so insufferably arrogant that they don't think it's worth defending against something as primitive as kinetic melee weapons. I personally subscribe to this theory.

Your fogetting that its impossible to dodge at those speeds due to sheer stress.

For the Borg, it's not. c.f. Picard Maneuver.

For ships that can pop-up at pointblank behind you, a MAC gun is a joke. Nevermind that in the Star Trek universe, the notion of a physical projectile is a well-known concept. There's probably a reason why it isn't used.

I would submit that it's probably related to supply issues. It's probably more fuel-efficient to dump raw energy on someone than it would be to carry or replicate a kinetic projectile and then accelerate it. And pretty much all of the ships we see in ST are long-range, extended deployment ships.

The Borg were unable to assimilate Data in one of the movies. In Star Trek, most if not all ships have databases explaining how they work in detail. There are no Data schematics lying around, and the Borg are terrible at figuring things out on their own.

Unwilling is not the same thing as unable. They probably could have reprogrammed him and made him into what they wanted.

This was not their goal. They wanted Data to choose to fall in line. About all you can infer from their failure here is that they are not very good at seduction.

Well, if you're fool enough not to accept an immortal Mal Reynolds as a massive edge, there's always AIs. The Borg want tech. They grab an AI and try to assimilate it, and the AI clobbers their networks and turns a unified hivemind into, at best, a horde of very confused Hughs.

This. This here is the key, and this is where I really voice my opinion on the original question.

In a naval battle, the Borg have the advantage, and if you're honest with yourself, it should be clear that they do. They have inertial dampeners and warp drive. They have energy weapons that travel at light-speed, and the ability to use them at will. They have other weapons that can travel faster than the speed of light. They have transporter beams. They have superior sensor systems.

In short, they have superior maneuverability. They have superior firepower -- maybe not in terms of pure energy delivered, but in terms of what actually hits. They have the ability to place things and remove things from the enemy ships at will. They have superior battlefield awareness.

The only thing that can save the UNSC here is if the Borg choose to be stupid. I don't think we should rely on this being the case. In my opinion, the Borg are stupid as a plot element for ST, nothing more. If it's not a plot element, it's because the Borg basically have unlimited numbers, and they just don't care that much if they lose any specific battle.

Expect that to change if the unlimited reinforcements status changes. If you watch Star Trek, you'll notice that the Borg are generally smarter when they know that they've only got one chance at something.

Maybe, maybe the UNSC could exploit the Borg's arrogance. But I think that's about it in terms of duking it out.

But all of that said, AI is the key. The Borg are an inherently networked species. Without their network interconnects creating the presence of the Hive Mind, the Borg cease to be Borg. They may cease to operate, or in Seven of Nine's case, they may become individuals. But either way, they're not Borg.

If Halo-verse AI can find a way to infiltrate the Borg network and embed itself in the Borg computers, well then, that's it. The Halo-verse wins. Replicate infinitely, and shut-down the network. The game is over.

GoC

2009-06-08, 08:52 AM

Star Trek is inconsistent->debate=impossible

Dinvan

2009-06-08, 09:16 AM

Krytha

2009-06-08, 09:36 AM

The borg win. If not through technological superiority, then by sheer numbers. Someone in this thread something to the effect of two MACs for every cube? More like 5 cubes for every MAC... if not more. The borg are seriously limitless.

Also how are these amazing AIs gaining access to borg hive systems? Would they even know what to do when they got there?

+ nanomachines are borg toys

Dervag

2009-06-08, 10:01 AM

I would argue that it's not because they can't adapt by adding armor, it's because they choose not to. The loss of drones means roughly nothing to the Borg, and the drones may operate in their intended fashions better without said armor.

On the other hand, it might just be that the Borg are so insufferably arrogant that they don't think it's worth defending against something as primitive as kinetic melee weapons. I personally subscribe to this theory.The problem with this is that the Borg are supposed to be, well, logical. At least in the sense that when they do something, it's because they honestly did the math and decided it was a good idea. It's a big part of why they're a menace- not only do they have vast resources and high technology, but they are supposed to be efficient.

I don't care how cheap Borg drones are relative to the entire Collective budget; drones aren't cheaper than steel plates. Using steel plates to keep drones from being destroyed is cost-effective. The fact that the Borg don't do that indicates one of two things:

1)They are incapable, for programming reasons, of "adapting" a very simple engineering solution to a very simple problem, in a way that would occur to any human civilization almost immediately.
2)They are deeply irrational when it comes to calculating threats, to the point where they will spend the money-equivalent to put super-duper force shields that block phaser blasts on their drones, but not to give those same drones breastplates to keep them from getting impaled by savages with spears. Even when attacks with melee weapons have played a key role in many of their most serious defeats.
______

Honestly, I agree that the Borg have a lot of advantages compared to something like the UNSC, based on what I've heard. I can easily see them winning.

But for once, I'd like to hear someone admit that the Borg have limits, that their ability to adapt and destroy and respond efficiently to threats is finite.

Prime32

2009-06-08, 10:10 AM

Honestly, I agree that the Borg have a lot of advantages compared to something like the UNSC, based on what I've heard. I can easily see them winning.

But for once, I'd like to hear someone admit that the Borg have limits, that their ability to adapt and destroy and respond efficiently to threats is finite.
This. I've more been trying to point out inaccuracies in arguments than push one side as the winner.

Some one said in this thread that the borg don't invent their own tech. VERY untrue. A quote from the wiki
"Borg technology was a combination of technologies assimilated from other cultures and technology developed within the Collective in order to overcome obstacles to its goals. When confronted by a problem it could not solve with its existing resources, the entire Collective would work in concert to consider all possible solutions and implement the one determined to be the most efficient. By applying the unique skills of each drone to a task, the hive mind could engineer new technologies at a pace that would astound an individual. (TNG: "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II") "
And yet, there was the war against Species 8472, where Voyager was able to easily defeat them by making an incredibly minor modification to a piece of Borg technology which the Borg themselves were unable to come up with. The Borg were so desperate to find out how to do this that they formed an alliance with Voyager. Said modification caused 8472 to be assimilated then destroyed - after the Borg attained it, they were never able to remove the "destroyed" step, even though they would love to assimilate 8472.

Nukes are laughable in the trek universe.
Maybe the kind of nukes they have in ST are laughable, but the UNSC have developed nukes which can destroy planets. I mean, just because Riker says "Lasers? That won't even scratch our shields" doesn't mean that the Enterprise could survive being fired on by 100 Death Stars.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-08, 10:26 AM

BTW Guys, the borg are not as described in this thread.

For all you borg haters here who are saying the UNSC would beat a borg fleet half its size, please read the Star Trek wiki on the borg first. It is most enlightening.

Some one said in this thread that the borg don't invent their own tech. VERY untrue. A quote from the wiki
"Borg technology was a combination of technologies assimilated from other cultures and technology developed within the Collective in order to overcome obstacles to its goals. When confronted by a problem it could not solve with its existing resources, the entire Collective would work in concert to consider all possible solutions and implement the one determined to be the most efficient. By applying the unique skills of each drone to a task, the hive mind could engineer new technologies at a pace that would astound an individual. (TNG: "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II") "

Also, the original poster said a fleet half the size of the UNSC. So we are not only talking Cubes we are talking, dimonds, armored cubes(AKA WTFPWN), spheres and the smaller and more manouvable scout vessles (less armored ofcourse)

To me its an easy win for the borg, as I have said, due to the fact that only 1 normal cube almost defeated the majority of the Federation fleet at Wolf 359. 1 tactical armored cube would have decimated the entire federation had one of those been sent.

Its nothing to do with the tech in the halo universe being "bad" its more to do with the borg have FAR more time to have improved its tech and also assimilating other peoples tech. Can you really beleive that the borg would sit there and take a hit from a projectile weapon ? Or would they shoot its slow moving ass out of the sky?

Nukes are laughable in the trek universe.
You're still making a boatload of unwarranted assumptions.

First, you presume that an open-editing wiki is correct. :smalltongue: Memory Alpha may be quoting dialogue in good faith, but the statement is clearly untrue regardless; the Borg repeatedly take the most inefficient means of solving a problem that they could practically come up with. Sending single vessels in succession years apart to attack a nation that has defeated solitary vessels of yours in the past does not make sense; in fact, it meets the "doing the same thing and expecting different results" definition of insanity.

Second, the original poster said a fleet half the size of the UNSC, but did not specify its makeup. Since the Borg have absolutely no history of sending anything other than basic cubes to attack other powers, I see no reason to presume that they would behave differently by dispatching other ship types. I also see no reason to believe that doing so would affect the outcome.

Third, the assumption that the majority of the Federation Starfleet was defeated at Wolf 359 is not only unwarranted, we know it is false. The majority of Starfleet simply could not be rallied in time due to the relatively slow speed of warp travel and the Federation's propensity to dispatch most of its ships on long-range exploration missions. The assumption that a tactical cube would have decimated the entire Federation is unknown as well, due to the fact that the Borg in Best of Both Worlds were defeated via plot device, one which would have worked equally well on any type of Borg vessel.

Fourth, the assumption that the Borg would shoot down MAC rounds. Possible? Yes. If their weapons can burn through 600 tons of solid tungsten carbide, a much different exercise from destroying an unarmored starship with terrible structural engineering and a necessarily mostly hollow interior to make room for decks. Probable? No, because the Borg won't engage until within a few tens of kilometers if past behavior is any indication, a distance which a fractional-c projectile can cover in a time well shorter than their possible reaction time.

And fifth, the gross assumption that nukes are "laughable" to Trek. First, no. The stated yield of a photon torpedo is only a little over the yield of the largest nuclear warheads ever tested on Earth (the Soviets' Tsar Bomba could have been tested at a much higher yield than it was, actually; it's maximum was over the tech manual's stated maximum yield for a photon torpedo, but it was dialed down to half of that to enable the bomber dropping it to escape the blast), and photon torpedoes are obviously relevant. Second, as implied by the Tsar Bomba test, there is nothing inherently limited about nuclear weapons that makes them categorically unable to achieve the necessary power even if this wasn't true; the mechanism of the destructive power is irrelevant as long as it is sufficiently destructive. Exotic weapons principles are not inherently better, something which the writers of the Haloverse understand.
The borg win. If not through technological superiority, then by sheer numbers. Someone in this thread something to the effect of two MACs for every cube? More like 5 cubes for every MAC... if not more. The borg are seriously limitless.
Not for this scenario, they aren't. The OP specifies a Borg fleet half the size of the defending UNSC forces, so that's all they get for the purposes of the debate.

warty goblin

2009-06-08, 10:32 AM

Considering the fact that a single nuke wiped out the population of a planet, an enormous fleet and generally ****ed things up from a VERY sub-optimal point of detonation I'm pretty sure we can discount anything you say about them.

Also, "only in Star Trek"? Star Trek moves really slowly and with little sense of style. It had to be said. Keep in mind that dodging isn't as easy as you might think, there are always going to be ways to hit if you have the best computational mind imaginable

Speaking of unfounded speculation....
Let's make the following, apparently reasonable assumptions. Suppose the cube is engaging twenty UNSC ships at an average distance of 1,000 kilometers. Let's give the cube the previously bandied about number of .4c/second. Let's assume that the MAC rounds travel at .1c, relative to launch platform, and the starting relative velocity of the UNSC and Borg ships is negligable.

It takes light about 3.3 microseconds to travel a kilometer. Since the MAC round is going a tenth that speed it will take 33 microseconds, or 3.3E-5 seconds. Thus it will take the round 3.3E-2 seconds to travel 1,000km.

The cube can change its velocity by .4 in a second. The equation for change in position is:
x = x0 + v0(t) + (.5)a0(t^2)*,
where x0 is starting position, here irrelevant, v0 is starting velocity, assumed to be zero, a0 is acceleration, assumed to be .4c, and t is time, here 3.3e-2 seconds.

Some basic plug and chug then reveals that the cube can change it's position by 65,340 meters or 65.34km in the time it takes the slug to reach its starting location.

Now things get really, really fun. Since it can change its position that much, the volume of space it could be in over that time period is a sphere with a 65km radius, which comes to a volume of 1,168,272km^3. The cube is 27km^3, meaning it occupies a whopping .002311% of the volume.

I will now point out that the only thing being able to crunch numbers really fast would allow you to do in this case is to a) account for relativity and do a little less rounding, and b) realize just how horrible one's hit chance could be.
Furthermore, with an acceleration of .4c, the cube could be behind the UNSC ships in about .004 seconds. Given that UNSC ships don't seem to have inertial dampers, there's no way in hell that they can turn around that quickly.

Finally, on the point of Halo AIs being godlike constructs, allow me to point out that Cortana was, at one point, defeated by a door (Halo: Combat Evolved, the Silent Cartographer). Her solution? Wander around the island in hopes of finding the security controls, because everybody knows that highly advanced alien species always put the 'unlock important door' button in easily accessible locations without any security. Later in that same game, she was surprised that there were UNSC forces still alive on Halo, which strikes me as a little odd since she was walking around in a suit of armor that I'm fairly sure had a radio reciever in it... Bottom line, they might be good at calculating something, but I'm really not sure what.

*This is slightly optimistic, since it does not account for relativity. However both universes so thouroughly ignore this concept, I feel justified in doing so.

Prime32

2009-06-08, 10:49 AM

[MAC rounds are inaccurate]
And yet, Covenant have trouble dodging them with what appear to be similar speeds. Things don't always make sense in sci-fi. :smalltongue:

Furthermore, with an acceleration of .4c, the cube could be behind the UNSC ships in about .004 seconds. Given that UNSC ships don't seem to have inertial dampers, there's no way in hell that they can turn around that quickly.You're right, they don't. UNSC ships can turn around quickly, but the thrusters used for doing so have very limited fuel reserves and "rock the boat" quite a lot, so they can't do it much. However, their small point-defence guns can aim in any direction.

Finally, on the point of Halo AIs being godlike constructs, allow me to point out that Cortana was, at one point, defeated by a door (Halo: Combat Evolved, the Silent Cartographer). Her solution? Wander around the island in hopes of finding the security controls, because everybody knows that highly advanced alien species always put the 'unlock important door' button in easily accessible locations without any security. Later in that same game, she was surprised that there were UNSC forces still alive on Halo, which strikes me as a little odd since she was walking around in a suit of armor that I'm fairly sure had a radio reciever in it... Bottom line, they might be good at calculating something, but I'm really not sure what.
That is odd. Maybe the transmissions were blocked by something. Maybe Cortana was only pretending not to know (my memory of that part of the novelisation is fuzzy). She does crazy-genius stuff in the books though - even translating the Covenant's overly-complex and flowery language is supposed to stump the UNSC's most skilled linguists.

Stormthorn

2009-06-08, 11:18 AM

... And my new-found respect for Halo has just been extinguished by the Nova bomb.
Yep, there's no way Halo is hard sci-fi. We have a simple case of does-not-compute. If it's fusion it can't destroy the planet.

Actualy their isnt much of a limit on the power of a fusion weapon if you have the materials. Look at, for instance, VY Canis Majoris. According to wikipedia its 7,000,000,000,000,000 times the size of earth and its just one big fusion reaction.
The nova bomb was described by a non-scientist as having a yield of about 18 teratons. Of course, if the implied multiplication was instead an exponent (an easy mistake for him to make) then the yield would be 10 to the 255 power gigatons. I dont know what that is in Teratons but i think its more on scale with the power of the bomb

Borg tech might be superior.
Borg tactics are not.
If the UNSC use their tactics and the Borg use theirs the Borg will lose.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-08, 11:57 AM

The borg aren't Daleks, they can't go back in the blink of an eye, but they can build another time pod like they used in First Contact during the war, and with the Enterprise there to defeat them, crush Earth in the past.
I don't think they built a time pod, they just sort of decided "hey let's go back in time naow guise" and so they did it.

Trek time travel seems to operate on the principle of "whenever the hell we feel like it, but only sometimes". I mean at the end of first contact, they were all "hay guise lets go back to the future naow", same for that movie with the whales.

But then if time travel were ALWAYS that easy... well, **** gets very confusing very fast.

So yeah, that was pretty much unrelated to the topic at hand.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-08, 12:17 PM

And fifth, the gross assumption that nukes are "laughable" to Trek.
Except it isn't actually. While they might not be able to shoot down MAC rounds, Shooting down nukes would be easy. It's been a long while since I've watched TNG, but didn't the cube that attacked earth in the series shoot down missiles launched against it?

GoC

2009-06-08, 04:34 PM

Stormthorn

2009-06-08, 04:37 PM

Keep in mind that in all likelyhood the Borg could, due to the confines of the OP, only go back in time to the begining of the engagement with the UNSC. Also, this would now be a seperate timeline and in the origional one that they left from it would be as if they gave up and retreated, a UNSC win.

Sooooo... you claim this fusion bomb had a yield of 10255 gigatons? I'll let you mull that over for a bit. Then you can come back and tell me: A) The size of this bomb. B) It's mass. C) The number of universes the UNSC has had to consume to make this bomb.
No idea about those. Im just trying to come up with an explanation for why what the general describes as its power isnt the same as its displayed power. 18 teratons cannot break a planet. The bomb was described as being able to and was demonstrated as being able to destroy a moon when detonated in orbit around a planet.

Verruckt

2009-06-08, 04:37 PM

Finally, on the point of Halo AIs being godlike constructs, allow me to point out that Cortana was, at one point, defeated by a door (Halo: Combat Evolved, the Silent Cartographer). Her solution? Wander around the island in hopes of finding the security controls, because everybody knows that highly advanced alien species always put the 'unlock important door' button in easily accessible locations without any security. Later in that same game, she was surprised that there were UNSC forces still alive on Halo, which strikes me as a little odd since she was walking around in a suit of armor that I'm fairly sure had a radio reciever in it... Bottom line, they might be good at calculating something, but I'm really not sure what.

In the case of the AIs in Halo I think it's more reliable to look to the books as canon than the games. An obvious plot hole given her capabilities used in order to extend a given level does not really make her less powerful. In the books AIs are capable of some intense number crunching (Firing solutions, predicting mine placement, hyperspace jumps, missile punching) One AI holds together a habitat made of linked asteroids whizzing around a gas giant and the traffic that flows in between, which is some insane vector calculus to say the least. Cortana herself deciphered the Covenant language and destroyed a covenant AI (and absorbed its individuality into her own :smallamused:) giving precedent that she has skill in combating and subjugating advanced alien systems.

The Borg are faster, stronger and dumb as a brick. They will assimilate, and attempt to absorb the UNSC's tech, they will bump into an AI, and they will be made to dance like cyborg sockpuppets until the Haloverse's factions figure out what to do with their new pet geometric battlefleet.

Prime32

2009-06-08, 04:51 PM

Of course, if the implied multiplication was instead an exponent (an easy mistake for him to make) then the yield would be 10 to the 255 power gigatons. I dont know what that is in Teratons but i think its more on scale with the power of the bomb
A teraton is 1000 gigatons.

10255 is a 1 with 255 zeros after it. Even measuring that in yottatons (http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html) would be difficult. That's over two googols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googol) of gigatons, and far exceeds the power of a TNT bomb the size of the universe.

Stormthorn

2009-06-08, 04:51 PM

In the case of the AIs in Halo I think it's more reliable to look to the books as canon than the games
Yea. the universe has a big involved backstory that is much more expanded and connected than the games let on. Probably because the games where designed for FPS fans while the novels and Cortana Letters and whatnot are designed for fans of the setting and series.

GoC

2009-06-08, 04:59 PM

No idea about those. Im just trying to come up with an explanation for why what the general describes as its power isnt the same as its displayed power. 18 teratons cannot break a planet. The bomb was described as being able to and was demonstrated as being able to destroy a moon when detonated in orbit around a planet.
Basic maths. You'll need it in debates.
I've already calculated the required size of a fussion bomb breaking the planet. It would be HUGE. Weighing over three million billion tons.

Still pathetic compared to your bomb though. Your's wouldn't fit in the universe even if it was made out of neutronium and anti-neutronium.

Prime32

2009-06-08, 05:02 PM

Dervag

2009-06-08, 05:18 PM

The cube can change its velocity by .4 in a second...

Some basic plug and chug then reveals that the cube can change it's position by 65,340 meters or 65.34km in the time it takes the slug to reach its starting location.

Now things get really, really fun. Since it can change its position that much, the volume of space it could be in over that time period is a sphere with a 65km radius, which comes to a volume of 1,168,272km^3. The cube is 27km^3, meaning it occupies a whopping .002311% of the volume.This works quite well if the Borg are in the habit of zigzagging their cubes at random all over space in an attempt to evade enemy fire.

To the best of my knowledge, they're not, but I could easily be mistaken. It would be a logical counter in this scenario, assuming Borg cubes do indeed have the immense acceleration you give them. But it's also a counter that the Borg could and should have used for other reasons in other situations in the past... and didn't. By all rights, a Borg cube that can do this trick should never be hit by photon torpedoes, because it could outmaneuver any torpedo we've ever seen.

Verruckt

2009-06-08, 05:23 PM

GoC

2009-06-08, 05:54 PM

As to the NOVA bomb: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_Bomb
not much there seems to explain its supposed power, but I think it's safe to say that it's doing something other than simple conventional nuclear explosion.

So it says it's a nuclear explosion but it isn't?:smallconfused:
Simpler explanation: Unreliable narrators.

Stormthorn

2009-06-08, 09:24 PM

Basic maths. You'll need it in debates.
I've already calculated the required size of a fussion bomb breaking the planet. It would be HUGE. Weighing over three million billion tons.

Still pathetic compared to your bomb though. Your's wouldn't fit in the universe even if it was made out of neutronium and anti-neutronium.

If your going to limit this battle to the bounds of physics then both sides are really screwed, the Borg more so.

I mean srsly, you should have been bringing this up as soon as i mentioned the UNSC FTL capabilities since that also requires more-than-infinite energy.

Since looking back the book doesnt really give a size for the sub-warheads we could say they are multi-teraton bombs themselves.

Viv

2009-06-09, 06:51 AM

The problem with this is that the Borg are supposed to be, well, logical. At least in the sense that when they do something, it's because they honestly did the math and decided it was a good idea. It's a big part of why they're a menace- not only do they have vast resources and high technology, but they are supposed to be efficient.

The Borg are, in fact, insufferably arrogant. Think about their standard operating procedure. They roll up on a civilization. They stop what they're doing, and send a message: "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

This is not efficient. Nobody ever goes, "Oh, it's the Borg, I guess I'll surrender."

Also, do recall that Federation troops repeatedly beam onto Borg ships, and go about their business for extended periods of time until they prove themselves a threat. Up until that point? The Borg just plain ignore them.

Arrogant in the extreme.

I don't care how cheap Borg drones are relative to the entire Collective budget; drones aren't cheaper than steel plates. Using steel plates to keep drones from being destroyed is cost-effective. The fact that the Borg don't do that indicates one of two things:

False dichotomy. There's another obvious option that both you and I have alluded to. Perhaps a drone is more efficient overall without said body armor.

After all, as you said:

At least in the sense that when they do something, it's because they honestly did the math and decided it was a good idea.

I assure you that physical combat armor for drones is not beyond the capability of the Borg. Even if the idea is something that would be beyond their capability to come up with alone, they've assimilated so many species that surely they've encountered the concept before.

If the Borg don't have personal body armor on, it's because they choose not to.

(Personally, I go with "they're arrogant" as to why on this one. This is just a more specific version of your possibility that they are deeply irrational about threats.)

By all rights, a Borg cube that can do this trick should never be hit by photon torpedoes, because it could outmaneuver any torpedo we've ever seen.

Photon torpedoes are capable of faster than light travel. There is no reason to believe that they aren't just as maneuverable as a Borg ship.

But for once, I'd like to hear someone admit that the Borg have limits, that their ability to adapt and destroy and respond efficiently to threats is finite.

And as far as this is concerned, I did say that. I stated that, essentially, in a toe-to-toe fight, the Borg are going to win. If I recall correctly, with the exception of that one species in Voyager, this is always the case. You go toe-to-toe with the Borg, and you lose.

But, when you go at them slightly askew -- usually using their arrogance against them -- then you win.

More than likely, an AI infiltrating their hive mind would be ignored until it did something threatening -- and by then, if the AI was smart, it would be far too late. This is the scenario I envision the UNSC winning with.

Viv

2009-06-09, 07:08 AM

I will, however, confess that stupidity regarding boarders is a basically universal thing in the Star Trek universe.

I don't know about you guys, but if I have a boarding party on my ship and operational transporters, my response would be, "Beam those suckers off the starboard bow, Scotty."

No muss, no fuss, and no need to send a detachment of your crew into combat.

GoC

2009-06-09, 07:15 AM

If your going to limit this battle to the bounds of physics then both sides are really screwed, the Borg more so.

I mean srsly, you should have been bringing this up as soon as i mentioned the UNSC FTL capabilities since that also requires more-than-infinite energy.

Since looking back the book doesnt really give a size for the sub-warheads we could say they are multi-teraton bombs themselves.

Reference points. We need them. Without basic maths and physics the only reference point we'd have is how cool they look.

Dervag

2009-06-09, 10:06 AM

The Borg are, in fact, insufferably arrogant. Think about their standard operating procedure. They roll up on a civilization. They stop what they're doing, and send a message: "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

This is not efficient. Nobody ever goes, "Oh, it's the Borg, I guess I'll surrender."

Also, do recall that Federation troops repeatedly beam onto Borg ships, and go about their business for extended periods of time until they prove themselves a threat. Up until that point? The Borg just plain ignore them.

Arrogant in the extreme.I don't disagree. What I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter why the Borg are inefficient, why they keep making the same mistakes over and over, why they do things that don't work, why they fail to take simple, cost-effective steps to adapt to the most primitive possible weapons.

The fact remains that they do. You can call it "arrogance." You can call it bad cost-benefit analysis by the hive mind. You can call it plot-induced stupidity. But whatever the cause, it happens so consistently that it represents a major weakness in the Borg empire. They have vast resources and powerful technology, but they use those resources very inefficiently compared to other, more adaptable and flexible species.
_______

False dichotomy. There's another obvious option that both you and I have alluded to. Perhaps a drone is more efficient overall without said body armor.But even the drones being beamed into potentially hostile environments (such as the USS Enterprise) are unarmored. A drone that works tending a big vat of fungus is probably more efficient without body armor. But how is it efficient or "adaptable" to board enemy ships with drones that have the same configuration as the fungus-tender drones?

This shouldn't take a species with a giant computronium brain to figure out. So I think it indicates a profound limitation on the Borg ability to "adapt." They'll make their drones phaser-proof, but they won't make them knife-proof, even though most drones are far more likely to be stabbed (industrial accidents happen) than they are to be shot with a phaser, and even though shields that can stop phaser fire almost have to be more expensive to produce than armor that can stop a knife.
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I assure you that physical combat armor for drones is not beyond the capability of the Borg. Even if the idea is something that would be beyond their capability to come up with alone, they've assimilated so many species that surely they've encountered the concept before.

If the Borg don't have personal body armor on, it's because they choose not to.Yes. Exactly. That's my point. The Borg cannot possibly be ignorant of the idea of armor. The fact that they don't use it, even in situations where they know damn well that their drones are going into an environment full of dangerous and untamed lifeforms at close quarters, says something very bad about the vaunted "efficiency," "rationality," and "adaptability" of the Borg civilization.
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(Personally, I go with "they're arrogant" as to why on this one. This is just a more specific version of your possibility that they are deeply irrational about threats.)But that level of arrogance borders on complete madness, with the decision-making process being so dysfunctional that it's a miracle their species still exists. I mean, what foolishness will they come up with next? Will they be too arrogant to notice that their drones need food, water, and air to breathe? Will they start headbutting doors open because they're too proud to use an undignified tool like a doorknob?

The behavior we see from the Borg is no mere arrogance; it's insanity.
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Photon torpedoes are capable of faster than light travel. There is no reason to believe that they aren't just as maneuverable as a Borg ship.Do we ever see them miss a ship travelling at sublight speeds?

Also, my impression is that phasers are (at least when fired in normal space) light-speed weapons. If the Borg were that agile, it should be impossible for any ship to target them effectively with light-speed weapons... or even to see them without using FTL sensors. They just wouldn't stand still long enough to be anything more than a very diffuse blur.
_______

And as far as this is concerned, I did say that. I stated that, essentially, in a toe-to-toe fight, the Borg are going to win. If I recall correctly, with the exception of that one species in Voyager, this is always the case. You go toe-to-toe with the Borg, and you lose.That depends on the quality of your weapons relative to the Borg, and on the ability of the Borg to bring overwhelming numbers against you. In this case, the possibility of overwhelming numbers has been ruled out, so for the Borg to beat the UNSC toe to toe they must have superior weapons. The evidence suggests that their weapons are superior, but those MACs are big enough that I'm not entirely sure of that. Multiton near-relativistic projectiles are dangerous.

Viv

2009-06-09, 12:40 PM

But how is it efficient or "adaptable" to board enemy ships with drones that have the same configuration as the fungus-tender drones?

(...)

They'll make their drones phaser-proof, but they won't make them knife-proof, even though most drones are far more likely to be stabbed (industrial accidents happen) than they are to be shot with a phaser, and even though shields that can stop phaser fire almost have to be more expensive to produce than armor that can stop a knife.

The Borg probably spend very little of their time dealing with species that are a threat to them in hand-to-hand combat. I think one reasonable interpretation is that they simply don't feel that creating a special class of drone for close combat is efficient.

The phaser-proof phenomenon may be a be a result of the drones already having all the necessary equipment for personal shielding for other reasons. I agree, if they're putting shielding on the drones for no other reason than personal defense against phasers, but failing to put body armor on them -- that makes no sense.

But there's no reason to believe that the personal shielding is there uniquely for that purpose.

Do we ever see them miss a ship travelling at sublight speeds?

Also, my impression is that phasers are (at least when fired in normal space) light-speed weapons. If the Borg were that agile, it should be impossible for any ship to target them effectively with light-speed weapons... or even to see them without using FTL sensors. They just wouldn't stand still long enough to be anything more than a very diffuse blur.

I can't say that I fully know the answer to this, but I can say that:

(1) Phasers are only used at sub-light speeds. Canonically, they simply can't be used at warp because you're going faster than light, and hence faster than the phaser beam can go anywhere.
(2) Photon torpedoes do get used at warp speed because they are capable of warp travel.

Because of (2), assuming that the Borg can't dodge sub-lightspeed weaponry on the basis that they can't dodge photon torpedoes is not reasonble.

I think one of the reasons you see so much face-to-face space fighting in Star Trek is because of the issue of phasers. Even light takes time to travel, and because of the maneuverability of the opponent, you have to get pretty damn close to hit them with a phaser fast enough that they'll still be there when the energy stream hits.

And phasers are generally what are used to bring down enemy shields, because, well, my impression is that for some reason, photon torpedos are bad at it.

That depends on the quality of your weapons relative to the Borg, and on the ability of the Borg to bring overwhelming numbers against you. In this case, the possibility of overwhelming numbers has been ruled out, so for the Borg to beat the UNSC toe to toe they must have superior weapons. The evidence suggests that their weapons are superior, but those MACs are big enough that I'm not entirely sure of that. Multiton near-relativistic projectiles are dangerous.

Well, that's sort of why the Borg didn't go toe-to-toe with the race in Voyager and win. They didn't have superior anything against that race.

But, I think if you reasonably look at the situation, you'll find that the technology the Borg can bring to bear really is vastly superior to what the UNSC can bring to bear -- with the exception of the AIs.

Dervag

2009-06-09, 12:56 PM

The Borg probably spend very little of their time dealing with species that are a threat to them in hand-to-hand combat. I think one reasonable interpretation is that they simply don't feel that creating a special class of drone for close combat is efficient.Yes, but they really ought to have a special class of drone for general combat, one they can send into environments with dangerous animals or unassmilated aliens. And those drones really ought to be armored, and should have at least basic hand-to-hand combat ability.

Moreover, the armor is multifunctional- the same armor that protects them from stab wounds is also useful against shrapnel (either deliberately from fragmentation weapons, or as a side-effect of other types of explosion).

If the Borg find themselves involved in ground combat so rarely that they don't even need specialized infantry drones, then they could make armor that the drone can put on, rather than surgically welding it to their skin. The body armor would be specialized gear used only by drones who expect a fight, much as drones might wear or use other specialized tools for other specific tasks. Since that's what everyone else in the galaxy does, the Borg have surely encountered this notion of wearing armor rather than building it onto the drone.

Honestly, I can't see any good excuse for Borg drones sent into a combat situation to be so inferior at simple hand to hand combat. If the Borg can figure out how to build starships, surely they can figure out basic infantry tactics, invent body armor and things like that.

It's just not logical. And regardless of why they act illogically, the fact remains that they're not being as rational as they're made out to be.
_______

Because of (2), assuming that the Borg can't dodge sub-lightspeed weaponry on the basis that they can't dodge photon torpedoes is not reasonble.But we see photon torpedoes used at what are definitely sublight speeds and short ranges. They take more than a few milliseconds to reach their targets; why aren't the Borg cubes jinking around trying to dodge?

I think one of the reasons you see so much face-to-face space fighting in Star Trek is because of the issue of phasers. Even light takes time to travel, and because of the maneuverability of the opponent, you have to get pretty damn close to hit them with a phaser fast enough that they'll still be there when the energy stream hits.But how do you stay with a ship to keep yourself in phaser range if it can dodge as fast in every direction as Warty Goblin says a Borg cube can? Even if you're just as agile, all it takes is a few hundred microseconds' delay in spotting the enemy's course changes and reacting to them to make it impossible to keep the cube in your gunsights.

Viv

2009-06-09, 01:10 PM

But we see photon torpedoes used at what are definitely sublight speeds and short ranges. They take more than a few milliseconds to reach their targets; why aren't the Borg cubes jinking around trying to dodge?

I submit that it's because there's no point in trying to jink or try to dodge a photon torpedo. If you go FTL, it will too. If you don't go FTL, it can match any move you make. As such, trying to avoid a photon torpedo that has a lock is a pretty pointless exercise.

A dumb projectile travelling at say, .4c is another story entirely.

But how do you stay with a ship to keep yourself in phaser range if it can dodge as fast in every direction as Warty Goblin says a Borg cube can? Even if you're just as agile, all it takes is a few hundred microseconds' delay in spotting the enemy's course changes and reacting to them to make it impossible to keep the cube in your gunsights.

It is not unprecedented for phasers to miss in ship to ship combat, so I expect that most species are capable of this kind of maneuverability -- including the Borg.

Frankly, though, I don't think the Borg bother trying to dodge because for the most part phaser fire is quite ineffective against them.

So, basically, my interpretation is that if MAC weaponry were a greater threat than phaser fire, the Borg should have no trouble trying to dodge it. If it weren't, the MACs would hit all day -- but they wouldn't be particularly effective.

Renegade Paladin

2009-06-09, 01:49 PM

Photon torpedoes never missing? Not that old canard again. Ah well, I needed a good joke. :smallamused:

This is normally the point where I'd post the famous (Darkstar would say infamous) Trekmiss video, but for some reason Poe's set it to private on YouTube. Regardless, photon torpedoes do, in fact, miss, as profusely demonstrated in DS9 season 4 episode 1, "The Way of the Warrior."

Seraph

2009-06-09, 03:38 PM

But we see photon torpedoes used at what are definitely sublight speeds and short ranges. They take more than a few milliseconds to reach their targets; why aren't the Borg cubes jinking around trying to dodge?

because as demonstrated by Star Trek VI, if you try to move out of the torpedo's path then it will follow you. unlike MAC slugs, they're guided weapons and they will home in on their target if possible. hell, the only time I remember them actually missing was in First Contact, and that was deliberate.

chiasaur11

2009-06-09, 03:55 PM

because as demonstrated by Star Trek VI, if you try to move out of the torpedo's path then it will follow you. unlike MAC slugs, they're guided weapons and they will home in on their target if possible. hell, the only time I remember them actually missing was in First Contact, and that was deliberate.

The comment above disagrees with you on the count of missing.

Apparently, those things miss a lot.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-09, 04:03 PM

No muss, no fuss, and no need to send a detachment of your crew into combat.

Not only a detachment of your crew, but usually a whole load of important people up to and including the first officer and/or the captain.

warty goblin

2009-06-09, 04:10 PM

The comment above disagrees with you on the count of missing.

Apparently, those things miss a lot.

Even if they do miss, that doesn't mean that c-fractional evasive maneuvres are particularly effective in making them do so, since it is fairly undeniable that they can be fired from, and operate at, superluminal speeds. Given that Star Trek operates on 'more power to X!' engineering, it's probably wiser to give it all to shields than to jerking around like the Little Photon that Couldn't.

Viv

2009-06-09, 04:16 PM

The comment above disagrees with you on the count of missing.

Apparently, those things miss a lot.

Yeah, but is that because the target dodged, or is that because the torpedo had a poor target lock in the first place?

It might be that if the torpedo has a poor lock, it's missing you pretty much no matter what -- and if it has a good lock, it's hitting you pretty much no matter what.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-09, 04:27 PM

Viv

2009-06-09, 04:58 PM

Um, photon torps can't jump to warp. Their warp engine is a "sustainer". In other words, if fired at warp, it can continue at warp speeds, though that will start dipping into payload after a point. If it's fired at sublight, they've never ever suddenly jumped to warp.

Sort of depends on who/what you believe. If you believe Memory Alpha, a class 8 probe (uses the same delivery system as a proton torpedo) was launched from sublight into warp in The Emissary.

Again, if you believe Memory Alpha, the notion that proton torpedoes can't enter warp is apparently derived from Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, which is apparently a non-cannon source.

Also, you see photons used against both shielded and unshielded targets all the time. If anything, it makes more sense to save phasers for unshielded targets, what with the whole "disintegrate matter" feature and all.

Point taken, but I have distinct memories of Picard and Kirk opening up the phasers and finishing with a torpedo. I always assumed that this was because proton torpedos were sub-optimal for penetrating shields as compared to phasers, but I guess it could just be style.

And how can a torp have a "bad lock" in ST? Their sensors can read a newspaper half a mile underground or some such; even if there's no sensor packet on the torp (which I'm pretty sure there is), telemetry from the main ship should help it. Not to mention it's like sensors take up that much room; just look at tricorders, and how much info they show.

As powerful as these sensors, are, wouldn't you imagine that the opposing ship has a similarly powerful countermeasure suite? I mean, yeah, they never talk about it, but it just boggles my mind that they wouldn't.

The fact of the matter is: photon torpedoes are guided missiles that can travel tremendous distances. They're not going to just shoot off into the void on their original trajectory if you move unless something makes them.

To me, that implies that something went wrong with their targetting and/or guidance system.

You may have some other explanation in mind, but that's the one I subscribe to.

That's not to say I recall torps missing a whole lot, but I'm pretty sure it's happened, especially in DS9 during the whole Dominion War bit.

Eh, it's not so much that I think that torpedoes never miss, it's that I don't think they generally miss due to evasive maneuvers post-firing.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-09, 05:22 PM

You say it boggles the mind that there wouldn't be countermeasures for sensors.

It also boggles the mind that they wouldn't have: proper body armor for security forces; better safety railings in some places; seatbelts, well, anywhere in a ship; actually ergonomic weapon design, along with proper sighting and bracing bits; some sort of circuit breaker so your displays don't explode all the time.

And so on.

Basically, plot rules over technical common sense in Star Trek.

Roupe

2009-06-09, 05:27 PM

Looking from the point of Technology & infrastructure the Borg should win.

But UNSC wins on the screen. Master Chief is all the UNSC needs in order to beat them.

Borg have (like many movie/tvshow military forces) problems in defending against guerilla & assymetrical warfare -from a a small group of attackers or individual. If Captain Picard or Captain Janeway can beat them, Master Chief will do the same.

Prime32

2009-06-09, 05:30 PM

So, basically, my interpretation is that if MAC weaponry were a greater threat than phaser fire, the Borg should have no trouble trying to dodge it. If it weren't, the MACs would hit all day -- but they wouldn't be particularly effective.
Borg never try to dodge, even in hand-to-hand. After Hugh screwed things up, the "free Borg" became dramatically more effective as they dodged behind cover, made use of suppression fire, etc. (Riker: "It was more like fighting Klingons than Borg. No offense.")

Viv

2009-06-09, 09:09 PM

Borg never try to dodge, even in hand-to-hand. After Hugh screwed things up, the "free Borg" became dramatically more effective as they dodged behind cover, made use of suppression fire, etc. (Riker: "It was more like fighting Klingons than Borg. No offense.")

Okay, now that really is a valid point. I'll concede that despite being technically capable of it, the Borg probably would choose not to dodge.

Dervag

2009-06-10, 10:46 AM

I submit that it's because there's no point in trying to jink or try to dodge a photon torpedo. If you go FTL, it will too. If you don't go FTL, it can match any move you make. As such, trying to avoid a photon torpedo that has a lock is a pretty pointless exercise.My impression was that photon torpedoes have a "warp sustainer" so that they can remain in warp when fired from warp, but cannot themselves go FTL. Do we have specific examples of a ship in normal space (not using warp) successfully engaging an enemy in warp using photon torpedoes?

It is not unprecedented for phasers to miss in ship to ship combat, so I expect that most species are capable of this kind of maneuverability -- including the Borg.

Frankly, though, I don't think the Borg bother trying to dodge because for the most part phaser fire is quite ineffective against them.Then they will likely be very surprised by that first six hundred ton depleted uranium spear. Whether they will then start dodging depends on whether or not Star Trek ships have the ability to jitter their position by kilometers in millisecond time scales. I've never seen them do it, or heard anything that makes me certain they hold this capability in reserve. While they may have very high accelerations (especially in warp), that doesn't mean they can enter warp instantly, or accelerate in any direction. If their engines operate along a fixed vector, they may not be able to jump sideways with as much agility as they can jump forward.
_______

because as demonstrated by Star Trek VI, if you try to move out of the torpedo's path then it will follow you. unlike MAC slugs, they're guided weapons and they will home in on their target if possible. hell, the only time I remember them actually missing was in First Contact, and that was deliberate.Yes, but you can still generate a miss if you duck to the side faster than their seekers can track you. Wait until the torpedo is five milliseconds from impact, then go to Warp Five at a ninety degree angle from the torpedo track, and there's a good chance the torpedo will overshoot and lose lock.

Unless, of course, you can't do those millisecond-timescale dodges that we never see in any of the actual footage.
______

Okay, now that really is a valid point. I'll concede that despite being technically capable of it, the Borg probably would choose not to dodge.In which case they start taking MAC rounds. Can they handle that kind of pounding? I'm not entirely sure.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-10, 12:00 PM

Unless, of course, you can't do those millisecond-timescale dodges that we never see in any of the actual footage.
What you see isn't necessarily what you get.

This was hammered home when I was watching Enterprise (A very poor decision I very much regretted) And they were being chased by some dudes and the guy was all "ON SCREEN" and they looked behind them and it looked like your typical trek 'oh they're 2 feet behind us' deal, except then they're all "RANGE IS 50,000 KILOMETRES AND CLOSING".

So yeah, take anything you see/don't see trek ships doing with a grain of salt.

Alternatively, take anything they say with a grain of salt.

Stormthorn

2009-06-10, 11:09 PM

Even if they do miss, that doesn't mean that c-fractional evasive maneuvres are particularly effective in making them do so, since it is fairly undeniable that they can be fired from, and operate at, superluminal speeds. Given that Star Trek operates on 'more power to X!' engineering, it's probably wiser to give it all to shields than to jerking around like the Little Photon that Couldn't.

But can a superluminal torpedo even act on something in regular space-time?

better safety railings in some places;
When i read this i got this little montage of redshirts going flying from all those times the ship got hit.
I swallowed my gum laughing.

Dervag

2009-06-11, 02:34 AM

What you see isn't necessarily what you get.

This was hammered home when I was watching Enterprise (A very poor decision I very much regretted) And they were being chased by some dudes and the guy was all "ON SCREEN" and they looked behind them and it looked like your typical trek 'oh they're 2 feet behind us' deal, except then they're all "RANGE IS 50,000 KILOMETRES AND CLOSING".

So yeah, take anything you see/don't see trek ships doing with a grain of salt.

Alternatively, take anything they say with a grain of salt.Granted, but for the ships to be jinking around on millisecond time scales to avoid enemy fire, the reality would have to contradict the visuals so grossly that it would take a lot more than a grain of salt for me.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-11, 12:05 PM

Granted, but for the ships to be jinking around on millisecond time scales to avoid enemy fire, the reality would have to contradict the visuals so grossly that it would take a lot more than a grain of salt for me.
I'm merely pointing out that in addition to an extremely convoluted canon, What you actually see in the show is not necessarily what you get.

Which begs the question what exactly their ships are doing when they say "Take evasive action", because I can't seem to remember them ever actually showing them take evasive action, and their evasive action never seems to be anything resembling effective anyway. It's always all "TAKE EVASIVE ACTION" And then it's all "OH SNAP OUR SHIELDS ARE AT xx%!"

So if any hard-core trekkies out there can tell us what trek ships actually do when they "Take evasive action" we can work from there.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-11, 12:09 PM

Much of the battle screentime for the Defiant?

Prime32

2009-06-11, 12:18 PM

Much of the battle screentime for the Defiant?Well, the Defiant was intended as the most badass ship in Starfleet.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-11, 12:33 PM

Well, the Defiant was intended as the most badass ship in Starfleet.

Right, but it does duck and weave. My memory recalls other smaller ships performing similar maneuvers.

Then there's the Big E in Nemesis. I'm pretty sure they were dodging all over the place, as best they could with that ship.

It's just that, the larger the ship, the harder it would be for evasive action to work fully. But it might reduce the full impact.

I mean, if they didn't do any evasive maneuvers, their shields might go down in 1-2 hits, instead of 5-6.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-11, 12:45 PM

Much of the battle screentime for the Defiant?
Ah, I'm only on my first run through DS9 now, and I'm only about 3 episodes into the 2nd season, hasn't been much space combat yet.

Then there's the Big E in Nemesis.
I have erased everything pertaining to that film from my mind.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-11, 12:49 PM

Well, DS9 is the show with major war battles that occur, with out and out CGI, which allows for much more dynamic movement.

And other complaints aside, like I said, Big E dodged around in Nemesis as I recall.

Also, I'm pretty sure Voyager zigged and zagged a lot. Though again, it's a smaller ship, such as it is.

Dervag

2009-06-11, 02:23 PM

Right, but it does duck and weave. My memory recalls other smaller ships performing similar maneuvers.

Then there's the Big E in Nemesis. I'm pretty sure they were dodging all over the place, as best they could with that ship.

It's just that, the larger the ship, the harder it would be for evasive action to work fully. But it might reduce the full impact.

I mean, if they didn't do any evasive maneuvers, their shields might go down in 1-2 hits, instead of 5-6.Yes, but were their evasive maneuvers letting them make radical course changes (not just in speed but in [i]direction[i]) in a matter milliseconds?

Because that's what Warty Goblin says they should be able to do.

The Glyphstone

2009-06-11, 02:33 PM

Probably not, but isn't Warty defending Borg Cubes specifically? All the Federation ships listed actually have engines/thrusters, usually visible ones. I've only seen First Contact, but as far as I remember, the Cube there just sort of floated in the direction it wanted to go, no thruster plumes or engines visible.

KnightDisciple

2009-06-11, 02:42 PM

Yes, but were their evasive maneuvers letting them make radical course changes (not just in speed but in [i]direction[i]) in a matter milliseconds?

Because that's what Warty Goblin says they should be able to do.

Whoa now. I'm not siding with Warty or anything.

I'm just noting that they do some level of dodging, that's all.

warty goblin

2009-06-11, 03:22 PM

Fan

2009-06-11, 03:26 PM

I wasn't even really taking a side. I was simply pointing out that, given the accelerations listed by other people as possible, subluminal dumbfire weapons are meaningless over any distance one would consider at all reasonable. Whether or not Star Trek ships do in fact engage an enemy in this fashion is a different question...

I will now direct you to the Keyes Manuever, the manuever that places you within INCHES of a enemy ship, cork screws you around, and puts your weapons mere meters away from the enemy. It also scrapes the bottom off your ship, but 3 point blank MAC rounds are pretty much undodgeable, even with post luminal speeds possible.

Stormthorn

2009-06-11, 03:34 PM

I will now direct you to the Keyes Manuever, the manuever that places you within INCHES of a enemy ship, cork screws you around, and puts your weapons mere meters away from the enemy. It also scrapes the bottom off your ship, but 3 point blank MAC rounds are pretty much undodgeable, even with post luminal speeds possible.

Not to mention he used it to make homing weapons impact the firing ship and that ship had evergy shields until a million tons of UNSC metal smoothed into them. Its like it was custom made to combat Star Trek tec.

Texas_Ben

2009-06-12, 10:26 AM

I will now direct you to the Keyes Manuever, the manuever that places you within INCHES of a enemy ship, cork screws you around, and puts your weapons mere meters away from the enemy. It also scrapes the bottom off your ship, but 3 point blank MAC rounds are pretty much undodgeable, even with post luminal speeds possible.

I'm not sure getting real close to a borg ship is such a good idea. I mean the borg do like their tractor beams yes? And once they have your ship in the beam your MAC gun is useless (Because it fires where the ship is pointing, and I'm assuming they would hold your ship pointing somewhere else).
All told, I think such a maneuver is undesirable.

Fan

2009-06-12, 04:30 PM

I'm not sure getting real close to a borg ship is such a good idea. I mean the borg do like their tractor beams yes? And once they have your ship in the beam your MAC gun is useless (Because it fires where the ship is pointing, and I'm assuming they would hold your ship pointing somewhere else).
All told, I think such a maneuver is undesirable.

Yeah, but honestly. Are the Borg going to expect that kind of crazy ever?
Jean Luc Picard, OR James Tiberius Kirk would NEVER try that, and one time is enough to destroy a borg cube entirely.

warty goblin

2009-06-13, 08:52 AM

Yeah, but honestly. Are the Borg going to expect that kind of crazy ever?
Jean Luc Picard, OR James Tiberius Kirk would NEVER try that, and one time is enough to destroy a borg cube entirely.

It would also destroy the UNSC ship in all likelyhood, even if the borg just sat there. At a range of 'inches' they are going to take hits from every piece of debris, and if the reactors blow up, they are at ground zero for that as well. Plus ramming the cube is, to put it mildly, stupid. First of all from that sort of range they won't be able to build much momentum, and second even a large UNSC ship is going to be so badly outmassed by their enemy that the damage they inflict will be small compared to the damage they take.

Prime32

2009-06-13, 09:11 AM

I'd like to point out that Keyes said that if one of his officers had suggested performing the "Keyes' Loop", he'd have laughed at him. He was really desperate at the time. The UNSC made the manouever famous though, to boost morale.

Tycoon126

2015-09-07, 01:18 AM

I am 100% certain that all of these points have been made before in this massive thread, but I am also sure that most of us are too lazy to read through it, and i am bored, so here it is:

The UNSC would win, but with heavy losses.
Fronts

Space:
The borg would have the advantage, in that they will be able to counter UNSC fleet weaponry without any adaptation (they are designed to take asteroid strikes going just as fast, and projectiles can be shot en rout by phasers). Spartan II's and III's could board and disable several cubes. They would be able to break through base armor with assimilation tubules, but the Spartans in Mijolner Mark V and VI would be safe due to shields, and the borg would not assimilate shield data from a Mijolner IV. This means that they would get a few Spartan III's MAYBE, but we saw in reach that they are capeable of going down fighting, to they point where their corpses would be unusable. Furthermore, if the Master Chief is any indication of the skill of a Spartan II, they would NEVER take one down, not even in a cube.

Ground: Despite the skill of the Spartans, the only hope would be to draw the borg to the surface of a planet. Marines would fall like cannon fodder, but the Spartans would win hands down. The borg do not have vehicles, and Spartans are total Bad asses.

Cyber warfare: A fleet full of advanced AI's would be a match for the collective, but it would be close. They would be able to protect ships from assimilation, and reek havoc when captured, but they would not be 100% effective- they would fall with time.

Result: UNSC victory.

GloatingSwine

2015-09-07, 02:25 AM

Ground: Despite the skill of the Spartans, the only hope would be to draw the borg to the surface of a planet. Marines would fall like cannon fodder, but the Spartans would win hands down. The borg do not have vehicles, and Spartans are total Bad asses.

I'm not sure the Marines would have that hard a time.

Individual borg drones show no sense of self preservation or tactics beyond "clomp slowly towards it", and they've never shown any capability to adapt to kinetic weaponry, despite the fact that Species 8472 mowed through them with only a pair of claws, suggesting that they probably can't, and they can be destroyed or disabled by relatively simple firearms like a tommy gun.

So against an army which predominantly uses kinetic energy they'll actually get horribly slaughtered in ground combat.

Also, despite maybe being able to dodge a MAC round, the Borg probably wouldn't try because, well, that's not what they do. Again even against things which can horribly murder their spaceships (like, again, the 8472) their evasive ability seems to be "float around a bit, maybe spin to bring more weapons to bear".

They're too used to having the ability to adapt to any attack that they are utterly incapable of any other problem solving. That's why they needed Voyager to save their sorry asses in Scorpion.

MLai

2015-09-08, 06:03 AM

ST has too much conflicting canon and dumb writers syndrome for any argument using writers' stupidity to be a valid honest argument. Because at that point you're not arguing that the Borg is bad, you're just arguing that the writers are bad.

I think the rail gun would be completely ineffective against a Cube. This isn't based on what Cubes can be seen doing onscreen, but rather a logical conclusion without which the ST universe cannot function:

(1) ST ships fly through normal space at superluminal speeds without shields up.
(2) Space has debris floating around.
(3) ST ships do not get disintegrated by colliding with space dust and space pebbles at superluminal speeds.

In order for the franchise to exist, all ships must have the ability to deflect collisions from objects at superluminal speeds. I guess that's what the Enterprise's deflector dish is all about? Basically all ships from warships down to science vessels have this fundamental tech; and that's why no one uses rail guns at each other.

You think the Borg will even notice a subluminal projectile?

Mato

2015-09-08, 11:21 AM

When have they, or anyone else in Star Trek for that matter, used that tactic?99.99999% of space fairing races use deflector shields which prevent transporters from locking on. And without those shields, you can freely capture the crew or destroy the entire thing.

The Federation, for as peaceful as they seem, are still at war and typically choose the latter instead of leaving an empty war vessel to be captured.

The Borg aren't that inventive. :smallamused: Besides, transporters are never used to their full potential in Star Trek.

Quickly arranging a demonstration, O'Brien shows how a micro-transporter could be attached to the muzzle of a TR-116 rifle to beam the bullet close to the target, where it continues its trajectory. With an exographic targeting sensor, the murderer could have scanned through bulkheads, meaning he or she could be firing from anywhere on the station, at anyone. Unfortunately, the micro-transporter does not leave enough of a transporter signature to track back.Actual Federation star ships have multiple internal shields so even if you were inside it'd be worthless but the base DS9 uses is outdated Bajoran technology so in this one instance where there isn't much shielding, a guy built a Farsight XR-20 and proceeded to assassinate targets.

Bonus points, the weapon is created by using a replicator (illegally of course).

Check out http://www.stardestroyer.net/ (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) for a detailed comparison of Star Trek and Star Wars technology.That is quite possibility the worst and most inaccurate site on this planet next to the best page in the universe.Like SD.net estimated all 12+ class photon torpedos to have a maximum 64.4MT based off the amount of antimatter contained there in even through ST's science does things ours says it can't (fictional science measured by non-fiction standards), then they argue that in DS9's data book everyone uses 18 isoton warheads for only 72% of that figure. Problem is DS9's data book in the same paragraph that mentioned earlier tech was limited to 18 isoton says the theoretical 25 isoton figure was reached, because it's the introduction to the quantum torpedo entry. And the databooks also say this.

Matter from the primary deuterium tankage and the total supply of antimatter from the storage pods on Deck42 are expelled simultaneously, producing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly equivalent to 1,000 photon torpedoes.So each standard-issue torp of an unknown class by the Enterprise era delivers 10^12mj of energy which is the equivalent of 239mt.

Then they assume the turbo lasers are 200gt based on the first prequal's databook entry for a specific class of ship. It's the only gigaton rated weapon in the entire book but assuming it's not a typo, in Clone Wars we can confirm those cannons use bullets. And no I'm not kidding, the blue-colored lasers are shot out of a cannon that reload shelled munitions. The green-colored lasers in the originals do not use shelled munitions. It's impossible to say they are the same weapon but SD.net will.

So this creates fallacy of comparisons, ST's figures are limited to real life science and calculations which is in direct contradiction to stated values. However when discussing SW, the incorrect comparison and stated value of one weapon is used as fact for another. You can't have it both ways, use the stated values or don't. Don't cherry pick from the middle.

If you haven't noticed it, the site was created by a Star Wars fan trying to say SW wins. The writer is only only in see what they want because that's the only thing they are looking for. And the entire site is literally built on assuming ST has zero access to ever earth/star buster or problem solving ability display in every single episode and it ignores pretty much everything from DS9 and Voyager.

The data books are also a good way to clock in the Borg's undurance. The handheld phasers have an internal battery pack that holds 4.5x10^7mj, or about 10kt. This is split into a wide number of settings and on the 16th level, maximum for the handhelds, it delivers 1.55x10^6 joules in 0.28 seconds or about 4,476.88 gigawatt-seconds per shot, which as displayed is enough to vaporize an unshielded drone.