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Zhalath
2009-05-19, 06:57 PM
Now, I've been looking at all the reach weapons Player's Handbook and other books have, and I'm wondering this:
are any of those reach weapons worth using?

Talic
2009-05-19, 07:00 PM
Guisarme is good.

Spiked Chain is crazy good.

Spear is a viable reach weapon with throwing ability.

yilduz
2009-05-19, 07:06 PM
I agree with spiked chain. It is a very awesome weapon.

Deepblue706
2009-05-19, 07:34 PM
How much use you'll get from a particular reach weapon will vary greatly by the level of play you're at.

The Spiked Chain has reach when you want it to, and can strike adjacent creatures as well. It grants a bonus on disarm checks, and allows for trip attacks; therefore it's a great weapon for mid-to-high level warrior PCs. The only drawbacks are that it costs a feat to use effectively (exotic weapon), and it deals piercing damage; which means it can't really be used to sunder, and it will fail to be effective against monsters with basic DR (only really an issue at low levels). The Spiked Chain's variable reach, however, makes it ideal for the defense of your friends (when paired with Combat Reflexes and like feats).

The Lance is a decent reach weapon, but only because of its increased damage capabilities while Mounted. If you're investing skill points in Ride and are sure to always have a horse, you're sure to get use of this on a charge. Unfortunately, you get few other benefits from this weapon, aside from having the option to use it one-handed while mounted, which enables you to use a shield. Shields unfortunately lose much steam after early levels, so the Lance only continues to hold a strong choice if you're deliberately making your character a mounted charger (i.e. you intend to take the Cavalier PrC).

The Guisarme makes for similar use of a Spiked Chain, but it doesn't grant you the ability to strike adjacent opponents. Thankfully, you can always invest in Armor Spikes to overcome that disadvantage; but nonetheless you will lose out on some benefits. Guisarmes can be used to make trip attacks, like the Spiked Chain, but you do not get any bonuses to disarm. Additionally, if you do choose to rely on Armor Spikes, any attacks with them will generally be lackluster. Slashing damage means you can overcome the DR of zombies at low-levels, and also have the option of Sunder. But, most will agree that these benefits fall short of what the Spiked Chain grants you.

The Ranseur grants a bonus to Disarm attempts, but does not allow you to Trip. If you're fighting humanoid or semi-humanoid foes who cannot be tripped easily (Dwarves, Formians), Disarm may prove a viable option, making this reach weapon fairly useful. Apart from situations like these, however, the Ranseur will probably prove inferior.

Unfortunately the regular Spear doesn't have reach, and the Longspear cannot be thrown. The Longspear is only useful against foes charging at you; which might be appropriate if you're fighting rank-and-file...but that isn't a common D&D theme, from what I can tell. If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency, you don't have much reason to specifically use the Longspear as your reach weapon, apart from aesthetics.

The Whip...yeah I don't have much to say about the Whip.

From Complete Warrior, there are a few more reach weapons:

The Greatspear is a 2d6 weapon with reach, and has a range increment of 10ft. Since you have to spend a feat to become proficient with it, it's not too great an option. Only something to choose for the aesthetics.

The Mancatcher is a non-lethal exotic reach weapon that allows for a free grapple check (no AoO) against anyone of the same size or one size category lower upon a successful hit. Anyone you have in a grapple with it may also be tripped (no attack roll, your "hit" is automatically assumed). There are some scenarios where this might prove useful, but overall it's not too solid a choice. I find they're most appropriate for NPCs, when you want to annoy your Players. :smallbiggrin:

The Heavy Poleaxe is not unlike the Greatspear; 2d6, reach, except it also deals slashing damage, and can be set against a charge (I find it interesting that the Greatspear cannot). You might find the idea of it fun, but mechanically it doesn't give you much for its cost of Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Faleldir
2009-05-19, 07:36 PM
Don't forget the kusari-gama, which is like a spiked chain but light and slashing. It's great for a dual-wielding Rogue/Swashbuckler.

John Campbell
2009-05-19, 08:30 PM
Unfortunately the regular Spear doesn't have reach, and the Longspear cannot be thrown. The Longspear is only useful against foes charging at you; which might be appropriate if you're fighting rank-and-file...but that isn't a common D&D theme, from what I can tell. If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency, you don't have much reason to specifically use the Longspear as your reach weapon, apart from aesthetics.

There's a cheap spear-only weapon enchantment in MIC called changeling, which lets you change a spear between shortspear/spear/longspear as a swift action. This basically gives you Short Haft - plus the ability to turn your longspear into something throwable, or one-handed - for the price of a couple thousand gold instead of one of your precious, precious feat slots.


The Whip...yeah I don't have much to say about the Whip.
It sucks! Does very little damage, does non-lethal damage, does no damage at all against anything with armor or any significant natural armor - which is practically everything. Can attack any square within 15', which would be good, except that it doesn't actually threaten those squares, which eliminates most of the point of having reach... Oh! And using it provokes attacks of opportunity! And to add insult to injury, it needs Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

You can trip and disarm with it, which is good, because you can't really attack with it. Doesn't make it worth using.

monty
2009-05-19, 08:35 PM
To be fair, a whip can be pretty good with a duskblade. Full attack channel at 15 feet is pretty nice.

Glimbur
2009-05-19, 08:38 PM
I have thought of a use for the whip. It combines several seemingly unrelated facts.
1) Bards are proficient in the whip.
2) Bards generally have a high Cha.
3) There's a feat called Intimidating Strike. As a standard action, make a melee attack. If you hit, you also make an intimidate check against your target. You can take a penalty to hit to get a bonus to the check, but whatever. The real benefit here is if you intimidate the target they are shaken for the rest of the combat.

So, as a low level bard, you throw ranks into intimidate and debuff with a whip.

Rhiannon87
2009-05-19, 08:43 PM
Spiked Chain = win. Yeah, you have to burn a feat, but it is so completely worth it, especially for rogues (IMO). You have an enemy 10 feet away, with a fighter between you and the enemy, and another fighter in flanking position off the first one. That's 3 people getting flanking bonuses, the rogue can sneak attack and doesn't have to worry about getting hit, and-- if they have a decent STR-- might be able to knock the enemy prone and let the fighters stab it to death.

We butchered a 15HD necromancer in a surprise round with two rogues, one of whom had a spiked chain. It was amazing.

Talic
2009-05-19, 08:52 PM
Don't shortchange the Guisarme.

Rather than armor spikes, try the feat <Improved Unarmed Strike>. You get power attack with both, a rarity. Yeah, you miss out on the +2 bonus of the Spiked chain, but you get the options for slashing damage and bludgeoning... Much better damage types, typically, especially at low levels.


As for shields falling behind... Yeah. But there are Charisma based builds that can get a good amount of power out of Divine Shield... Specially at level 10, when it starts lasting for entire combats. Take a +2 Heavy Steel shield, add a +5 Charisma modifier to it, and suddenly you're looking at +9 AC. Or about the same as plate. As the Cha goes up, so does the AC. Classes that do this will generally start out paladin, so it also adds in to Saving Throws and Lay on hands, as well.

Let's say we have a 12 dex pally with +1 Full Plate, the +2 shield above, and a Ring of Protection +1. You're looking at a 30 AC out the box.

So yeah, shields can fall behind. But they can also be fairly effective. I mean, as 1 handed weapons go, shields are decent weapons. Not disarmable, solid damage...

JackMage666
2009-05-19, 09:02 PM
Spiked Chain = win. Yeah, you have to burn a feat, but it is so completely worth it, especially for rogues (IMO). You have an enemy 10 feet away, with a fighter between you and the enemy, and another fighter in flanking position off the first one. That's 3 people getting flanking bonuses, the rogue can sneak attack and doesn't have to worry about getting hit, and-- if they have a decent STR-- might be able to knock the enemy prone and let the fighters stab it to death.

We butchered a 15HD necromancer in a surprise round with two rogues, one of whom had a spiked chain. It was amazing.

Can you point to where in the rules it says you can do that?

Rhiannon87
2009-05-19, 09:14 PM
Can you point to where in the rules it says you can do that?

It might not be RAW, but as far as I can tell the rules on flanking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking) don't prohibit such a thing. Since you can use a reach weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) around a friend (if you've got an enemy, a fighter, then someone behind the fighter with a reach weapon, the person wielding the reach weapon can attack around their friend without a problem, as best I can tell), and you are threatening the enemy, I don't see why you wouldn't get the flanking bonus.

Might be a house-rules interpretation, but I don't think it's against the "official" rules.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-05-19, 09:16 PM
Can you point to where in the rules it says you can do that?

Isn't it because you can threaten from a 10 foot range... There for you count as flanking and friendlies don't block your attacks.

snoopy13a
2009-05-19, 09:17 PM
In regards to non-spiked chain reach weapons:

1) In most circumstances, you can take a 5' step back and full attack

2) If you cannot take a 5' step back, you can drop the reach weapon as a free action, draw a backup weapon (such as a Heavy Flail) as a move action that doesn't provoke an AoO and do a standard attack.

3) As said, you can also drop the reach weapon as a free action and do a full attack with spiked gauntlets.

At low levels, (before you get multiple attacks) I'd think going with a guisarme and a heavy flail as a backup weapon may be a better option than spending a feat early on spiked chain proficiency for a early trip build.

JackMage666
2009-05-19, 09:20 PM
Isn't it because you can threaten from a 10 foot range... There for you count as flanking and friendlies don't block your attacks.

That seems like there should be something clarifying, about the whole "Allies don't block attacks" thing. I agree on the flanking bit, but the being able to attack with a spiked chain while your fighter buddy stands right in front of you seems... Off.

Rhiannon87
2009-05-19, 09:22 PM
That seems like there should be something clarifying, about the whole "Allies don't block attacks" thing. I agree on the flanking bit, but the being able to attack with a spiked chain while your fighter buddy stands right in front of you seems... Off.

Well, with polearms and spears, you're stabbing over your friend's shoulder. With a spiked chain, you're whipping it around their legs. At least that's how I've always pictured it... and then if you critical fumble, you hit or trip your buddy. (Which has also happened. To my character. I nearly murdered our spiked-chain-wielding-rogue that day.)

Maybe it's not that realistic, but we are discussing a game in which people regularly shoot lightning bolts from their hands. I'm just sayin'. :smallwink:

RagnaroksChosen
2009-05-19, 09:27 PM
depends on the spike chain i know in the eberron books theres is a drow chain an they us it similar to a scorpian tail.

The_JJ
2009-05-19, 09:27 PM
'course, abusing the spiked chain can have... interesting results.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Rhiannon87
2009-05-19, 09:28 PM
'course, abusing the spiked chain can have... interesting results.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

None of my players read OotS (tragic, I know.) I plan to punish them for this by throwing that exact enemy at them someday. :smallbiggrin:

Glimbur
2009-05-19, 09:34 PM
None of my players read OotS (tragic, I know.) I plan to punish them for this by throwing that exact enemy at them someday. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't actually work that way. The charge only provokes one AoO because it's just one action. If I move next to someone and then step sideways, that provokes. In that same move, I can then proceed to dance around them without provoking another attack. Then if I stop and draw a potion, that provokes again because it's a new action.

snoopy13a
2009-05-19, 09:37 PM
'course, abusing the spiked chain can have... interesting results.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Interestingly, the Half Ogre is almost certainly cheating. If Roy hadn't gotten a C- in AoO class, he may have called him on it.

The Half Ogre says he used up five feats (actually he needs six):

1) Combat Expertise (Oops, never mind that one)
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Exotic Prof: Spiked Chain (well, he doesn't actually need this but it doesn't look like he's taking a -4 penalty)
4) Dodge
5) Mobility
6) Spring Attack

Anyway, the key is that you can only do one type of AoO on an enemy per round. Thus, Roy can only get attacked for moving out of a threatened square once. Now, if Roy provoked two different AoOs such as moving out of a threatened square and drink a potion, he could be attacked twice.

There is a feat that allows more than one AoO for the same type of AoO (can't remember it) but that would break the five (or six) feat limit. I wonder if the Giant messed up or if he is having the characters mess up (more likely, especially with Roy's C-)

Rhiannon87
2009-05-19, 09:46 PM
It doesn't actually work that way. The charge only provokes one AoO because it's just one action. If I move next to someone and then step sideways, that provokes. In that same move, I can then proceed to dance around them without provoking another attack. Then if I stop and draw a potion, that provokes again because it's a new action.

Aww, ruining all my fun. :smalltongue: Oh well. It's still a relatively annoying build that I am sure will make my players stabby.

monty
2009-05-19, 09:47 PM
Why Combat Expertise?

snoopy13a
2009-05-19, 09:49 PM
Why Combat Expertise?

Oops, messed up there.

Faleldir
2009-05-19, 09:55 PM
The Half-Ogre's strategy would make sense if he had Hold The Line. Obviously there are a lot of ways you could improve that build, (permanencied Enlarge Person?) but he's not meant to be very smart.

Shademan
2009-05-20, 01:09 AM
I like the glaive. It has 1d10 damage, slashing damage and decent crit to if memory serves me right.
also, it SHOULD also have the trip attack option as glaives used to have hooks on the other end. I always rule that Glaives can trip.

John Campbell
2009-05-20, 01:57 AM
Polearm nomenclature's not an exact science, but as far as D&D is concerned, if it's got a hook on it, it's a guisarme.

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-20, 02:39 AM
Attacking through your friend with a reach weapon gives the opponent a +4 cover bonus the same way shooting through a friend does.

Players handbook page 151 "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon) use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks

I think there's a feat somewhere that negates this. can't for the life of me remember where though.



During your turn you can use a free action to switch from holding a pole arm to using the spiked gauntlet or armor spikes with no problem.

Armored spikes require a free hand to use outside of a grapple, so when its not your turn you can have reach with a pole arm, or hit opponents 5 feet away, but not both.



Even if you're not a monk, you can use a smaller weapon to threaten the adjacent squares. You'll have to hold the reach weapon in one hand and wield the smaller weapon in the other hand. Since most reach weapons are two-handed weapons, you're only holding onto the reach weapon, not wielding it, and you don't threaten an area with it. Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. Drawing the smaller weapon requires an action, but if you have the Quick Draw feat, it's a free action. Note that you can take a free action only during your turn.

If you want to use this trick, you must draw the smaller weapon while it's still your turn. When you do so, you don't threaten any area with your larger weapon until you wield it in two hands again. To resume using the bigger weapon on your turn, you'll have to drop the smaller weapon (a free action) to free up your hand for the bigger weapon.

Weapons such as the spiked gauntlet or armor spikes are ready for use whenever you have a free hand, and you don't need to drop them to use your hand for something else.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-20, 02:48 AM
I too love the Glaive. No extra feats to use it, decent damage, x3 crit.

The Talenta Sharrash from ECS is probably one of the best reach weapons: 1d10 damage, 19-20/x4 crit, and it can make trip attacks, but it requires an exotic weapon proficiency. They errated it to be 19-20/x2, but then it was reprinted in another book with its original 19-20/x4, though that was probably by someone ignorant of the errata. I'm not entirely sure which book it was reprinted in, but a few people I play with who will use the weapon at every opportunity know exactly where to find it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-20, 02:53 AM
Attacking through your friend with a reach weapon gives the opponent a +4 cover bonus the same way shooting through a friend does.

Players handbook page 151 "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon) use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks

I think there's a feat somewhere that negates this. can't for the life of me remember where though.
They changed that in the PHB errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), creatures provide soft cover, and soft cover never has any affect on melee attacks.

Shademan
2009-05-20, 03:31 AM
Polearm nomenclature's not an exact science, but as far as D&D is concerned, if it's got a hook on it, it's a guisarme.

but that is bull-poop! D8
The guisarme have different damage than the glaive.
actually, there are more weapons that should be able to trip. like axes (maybe they allready have the ability?)

... i got an idea:
Hook. 15gp. add a hook to your weapon to allow trip attacks. works only on those and those weapons. to lazy to do more work on this.

Coidzor
2009-05-20, 03:46 AM
I think most weapons can be used to trip if they're of sufficient size, it's just that some get bonuses for it due to the way they're designed. Spiked chain being almost entirely designed to be used to wrap around an opponent or object and wrench it something awful.

John Campbell
2009-05-20, 03:59 AM
but that is bull-poop! D8
Not really. It accurately reflects the tendency to put hooks on any random polearm and call the result a whatever-guisarme.


The guisarme have different damage than the glaive.
Yes. The glaive does a half-point more damage, on average; the guisarme has the ability to trip. If you also give the glaive the ability to trip, there's no reason to ever use a guisarme.

If you want lots of weird hybrid polearms, most of which there's no reason to ever use, you ought to be playing AD&D.


actually, there are more weapons that should be able to trip. like axes (maybe they allready have the ability?)
You can do a lot of things with weapons that D&D doesn't adequately reflect. I've been known to trip people with a longspear - it's a useful defensive move when someone with a shorter weapon is inside the point and closing. You don't need a hook or anything... just stick it in front of their feet when they're running, and they fall over.

I've stabbed people in the face with a longspear at knife-fighting range, too... WotC may think that choking up on a polearm so you can use it at close range is a complicated maneuver that warrants a feat, but out here in the real world, that's Polearm 101 material.

Shademan
2009-05-20, 04:08 AM
Well then my point is: the guisarme is USELESS! just use a glaive! it is superior!
and I agree. the spear is a relatively simple weapon, but damn is it useful!