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Person_Man
2009-05-20, 10:46 AM
I considered posting this in the Class and Level Geekery thread, but thought this might be a better place to talk about crunch.

O'Chul is a Fighter/Paladin with Cha as a dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) (presumable 12 or lower). When he fought Xykon in the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), he had one attack when he charged. But now it appears (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) that he has 2 or more attacks on a charge - which probably comes from some sort of Pounce (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5884385) or some sort of Improved Trip and/or Critical Hit combo that gives him an extra attack (which he used to Sunder or Disarm Redcloak's holy symbol, which is a favorite tactic of mine against casters). He also appears to have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html) Improved Unarmed Strike, some ranks in Swim, and a ton of hit points.

So, let's assume that you want to play O'Chul, and that you wanted to respect how he is portrayed. How would you build him? Assume that all non-setting specific books are allowed, as well as everything written by Rich.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-20, 10:51 AM
Given that O'Chul looked at Chuck Norris and the latter broke down in tears, I'd give him divine ranks. :smalltongue:

Maybe he wasn't charging, so much as he was taking a double move on one turn an full attacking the next?

FinalJustice
2009-05-20, 10:52 AM
Isn't there a feat somewhere to switch Wis to Cha in Paladin's Class Features. Serenity, if I'm not wrong. That would seem to fit.

Then, Monk/Fighter/Paladin/Badass seems fit.

Epinephrine
2009-05-20, 10:55 AM
So, let's assume that you want to play O'Chul, and that you wanted to respect how he is portrayed. How would you build him? Assume that all non-setting specific books are allowed, as well as everything written by Rich.

Ascetic Knight feat, to allow multiclassing of monk and paladin, they stack to determine smite and unarmed strike damage? Covers some of those feats nicely.

Silver Smite? Adds some damage, makes that fiery thing happen when he smites?

I'd give him a heck of a lot of Con. Probably also Improved Toughness, Endurance, and Steadfast Determination (use Con in place of Wis on Will saves, don't automatically fail Fort saves on a 1)

Keld Denar
2009-05-20, 10:58 AM
The knockdown could be a function of the Awesome Smite tactical feat from Complete Champion. The 3rd ability allows for an opposed trip check for free at the end of a smite. As far as the necklace, I was initially thinking some kind of sundering cleave (as allowed by the Combat Brute tactical feat), though Combat Brute explicitly states weapon/shield only. It could be just DM fiat because he rolled a 20/spent a fate point though.

O'Chul seems to have a lot of feats, so I'd wager that he's more fighter than paladin. Probably Pal1/Ftr8 or so.

Also, there is some definite jumping action, but no definative indication of a charge. It could be deduced that O'Chul has either a level of Warblade or Martial Study x2 to grab the Sudden Leap maneuver from the Tiger Claw discipline which would allow a full attack combined with movement. We don't really know where the turn broke, I'm guessing that O'Chul moved to within 15 or so feet of Redcloak, then Redcloak cast Disintegrate, which O'Chul succeeded on his fort save for, and then at the start of the next turn, BAM! Sudden Leap + Full Attack with his only smite attempt rolled in there with Awesome Smite.

Paramour Pink
2009-05-20, 11:07 AM
I'm not really sure he has levels of warblade, or anything like that, really. OotS seems to stick to more core-ish classes. That said, whatever fits with what we see is good. :smallsmile:

For the jumping, the Leap Attack feat seems like an equally fitting choice. I don't think his charisma is 12 or lower; his last few conversations with the MitD makes me think it's at least 13-ish with an equal or higher wisdom score.

Totally Guy
2009-05-20, 11:11 AM
Don't forget this guy has an absurdly high constitution. Maxed at every opportunity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 11:36 AM
Don't forget this guy has an absurdly high constitution. Maxed at every opportunity.The stat OotS thread back when O'Chul was being tortured by the acidic shark thing figured on (IIRC) ~170 HP. For his level, he ended up having to start with 18 con, max it at every level, take Imp Toughness, and even a few regular Toughness feats.

In other words, Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked O'Chul. Chuck ended up with a broken foot.

Haven
2009-05-20, 11:49 AM
The stat OotS thread back when O'Chul was being tortured by the acidic shark thing figured on (IIRC) ~170 HP. For his level, he ended up having to start with 18 con, max it at every level, take Imp Toughness, and even a few regular Toughness feats.

In other words, Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked O'Chul. Chuck ended up with a broken foot.

I'd assume this just means O'Chul gained a few extra levels, which makes sense, as all those deathtraps are like level grinding from hell.

And I didn't think that was an extra attack on the charge; I thought that was just a new round where he grabbed the pendant. Except then he probably should have been able to finish off Redcloak with the rest of a Full Attack, but...hmm.

RTGoodman
2009-05-20, 11:52 AM
Here's how I see it:

O-Chul has to use the full-round Run action to get to Redcloak. on his turn, Redcloak hits him with disintegrate, but it doesn't do much (5d6 is average 17.5 damage, probably 1/10th of his HP or less).

Next round, on his turn, O-Chul is finally adjacent to Redcloak (EDIT: or takes a 5-foot step, as douglas says) and does a full attack, hitting him with a Smite Evil (maybe with the Awesome Smite tactical feat) on the first attack and then using his second attack to make a disarm attempt against his holy symbol. Since Redcloak doesn't have a weapon on him, he can't make the AoO (or O-Chul has Improved Disarm), and since O-Chul's hands are full the disarmed items lands in a random adjacent square. That's all for his full attack, if he's 10th level or lower (as someone said earlier). On his turn, Redcloak teleports away, probably glad that word of recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/WordofRecall.htm) doesn't require anything other than a Verbal component.

Douglas
2009-05-20, 11:55 AM
I think O'Chul's jump was only a 5' step. Take a look at how close he is when Redcloak casts Disintegrate. That is where he is when his turn starts. That looks plenty close enough to me for a 5' "step" and full attack. The fact that his full attack is only two attacks (one smite evil + one disarm) puts his maximum level at 10.

Alleine
2009-05-20, 12:18 PM
That metal bar he's wielding could also be considered a double weapon, like a quarterstaff.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-20, 04:37 PM
The Pious Templar PrC makes a lot of sense for O'Chul. Mettle and damage reduction.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-20, 04:40 PM
When he fought Xykon in the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), he had one attack when he charged.
I believe that Xykon had readied an action (to cast Ray of Frost if O-Chul would attack him) and since this dropped O-Chul to negative hit points, he didn't get to make any more attacks.

Person_Man
2009-05-20, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. So, I think I agree with the following:

ECL 10 (2 attacks, but high hit points)
Con 20 (18 base, 2 from levels)
Skills: Swim, Diplomacy, probably others.
Feats: Improved Toughness, Serenity, Improved Unarmed Strike, Awesome Smite or Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock-Down, probably Power Attack (req for Awesome Smite).

Serenity (Dragon Magazine) in particular makes sense, because it moves all of his Paladin features from Cha (his "dump stat" - his words, btw, not mine) to Wis. His roleplaying and actions in combat clearly point to high Wis, and it would make sense that in order to survive so many death traps, he'd need sky high Saves.

He might also have Fearless Destiny - once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable (Races of Destiny). Assuming they only torture him to near death once per day and avoid poking him when he's unconscious, it would allow them to torture O'Chul indefinitely (unless they kill him with magic that ignores hit points, or if he dies of old age).

An interesting point that I can't decide on is his Paladin level. In 542, he uses Smite Evil twice - against the Shark and Xykon. So he needs 5 Paladin levels, or the Extra Smite feat. But if he has 5 Paladin levels, then he would have a Special Mount. It's also possible that he has an alternate class feature like Charging Smite (PHBII). But then his build would be Fighter 5/Paladin 5, which would be a very poor crunch decision (Fighter 5 being a dead level, and Smite Evil being very difficult to optimize for a multi-class Paladin) but not unthinkable.

Also, I don't think he has any Monk levels, because then he would have Flurry of Blows, and probably Stunning Fist and/or Evasion, which he clearly hasn't used.

EvilRoeSlade
2009-05-20, 04:46 PM
O'Chul was born a 10th level paladin and from there just gestalted whatever class he felt like.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-20, 04:53 PM
Con 20 (18 base, 2 from levels)
The Giant states that O-Chul has a con in his mid-twenties.


Skills: Swim, Diplomacy, probably others.
Profession: go player



Serenity (Dragon Magazine) in particular makes sense, because it moves all of his Paladin features from Cha (his "dump stat" - his words, btw, not mine) to Wis.
He doesn't appear to be able to Lay On Hands, so far.


An interesting point that I can't decide on is his Paladin level. In 542, he uses Smite Evil twice - against the Shark and Xykon.
He doesn't smite the shark. That's a regular fist blow.

Zergrusheddie
2009-05-20, 05:44 PM
Warblade needs to be in there. Look at how much badassery he unleashed with a Metal Bar from his cage; definitely Weapon Aptitude. I would say Fighter/Warblade (at similar levels) and 3 level of Paladin. 3 because he is immune to Fear, but he has not used a special mount which is a level 4 ability. Fighter/Warblade/Paladin also nets him a huge Fortitude save, which is the reason why a malnourished prisoner did not go splat when he was hit with Disintegrate.

RTGoodman
2009-05-20, 06:06 PM
If he indeed has Cha as his dump stat (i.e., less than 12), then Lay on Hands wouldn't work anyway. (It says it only works for Paladins with a 12 Cha or higher. Also, Paladin Level x 0 still equals 0.)

He probably doesn't have warblade levels, either. You don't need Weapon Aptitude to fight with an improvised weapon, you just take the -4 non-proficiency penalty. My guess? Fighter 6-7/Paladin 3, with a high Str (16-18+, since he still hits even with an improvised weapon), a REALLY high Con, decent Wis, and low Cha (below 12, probably 10 or so). He also has 9 feats; he MAY have Serenity, but I doubt it - that would give him some good Lay on Hands, which he hasn't used. Also, it's a Dragon Mag feat, and the Giant doesn't really use that much non-Core stuff.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-05-21, 12:45 PM
I see him as a Fighter 8/Paladin 4, since he's never shown a mount, though he's clearly been a Paladin long enough to be a senior member/commander in the Sapphire Guard. For starting stats, he obviously has a really, really, really high Con (18), a good Strength (14-16), probably a decent Wisdom (12-14), probably a average-decent Dex (10-12), and although he said Charisma was a dump stat, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a 10 or 11 in that.

Under this, he obviously pumped at least two of his level boosts into Con, and possibly three, though I wouldn't be surprised if he put that last one into Cha or Wis.

For feats, Improved Toughness is a yes. Beyond that, *shrugs*. (Can you take Improved Toughness more than once? If you can, I'd say O-Chul has that twice or thrice.)

That would give him, assuming average and rounding down...

10+4=14
5+4=9 (x7)
5+5=10 (x4)

That's 117 HP, only with HD. Then 129 with Improved Toughness. Plenty of HP.

ocato
2009-05-21, 01:30 PM
Kinda looked like he got a surprise round on Redcloak, then the fight 'started' and he sundered the holy symbol. Redcloak then chooses to escape on his turn. I mean, that seems like the simplest explanation (O-Chul's razor, get it? GET IT?!?!).

As for O-Chul's levels, definitely a lot of Fighter with a little bit of Paladin. He might not even have enough levels for his mount, since I don't recall seeing O-Chul summon one yet.

Draz74
2009-05-21, 01:59 PM
Lots of possibilities ...

Instead of Warblade levels, any tricks we've seen that break the core rules could be a function of Martial Study feats.

He could have only 2 Paladin levels and still have two Smites by using the Extra Smiting feat (or whatever it was called).

He could have a BAB of +11-15. If that's the case, his full attack on Redcloak in the latest strip included a separate Trip attack that, in-character, got "flavored" as part of his Smite attack instead of being a separate attack. (This would actually not be a stupid tactical decision on his part, if Redcloak has low Strength, and considering that Redcloak wasn't wielding a weapon and couldn't make an AoO. It gave him a healthy bonus to his subsequent Disarm attack to get the holy symbol.) This option lets us make him higher level, and also saves him a feat (Awesome Smite).

I like the Serenity feat idea, even though I really doubt OotSverse allows Dragon Mag content. :smallwink: But if his CON really is in the mid-20s, even when he's stripped of gear, then there's obviously some rule-bending going on (or he found a Manual of Bodily Health at an unusually low level).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 02:41 PM
But if his CON really is in the mid-20s, even when he's stripped of gear, then there's obviously some rule-bending going on (or he found a Manual of Bodily Health at an unusually low level).Level 8, starting with an 18, he'd have a 20. Imp Toughness 'ghosts' that up to 22. He could then be Human Paragon for 24, which works.

Person_Man
2009-05-27, 11:06 AM
Wow. After the most recent strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), it looks like O'Chul's hit points are even more ridiculous then we all though.

Disintegrate: 14d6 or higher (Save for only 5d6 damage)
Meteor Storm: 32d6 (No Save if Xykon made his touch attacks)
Maximized Lightning Bolt: 60 damage (Ref Save for Half)

I just don't know how he could swing a Con in the mid 20's around ECL 10ish without any equipment. I guess the only rational conclusion is that Rich ignores crunchy matters if they stand in the way of good story telling (which I'm fine with).

V'icternus
2009-05-27, 11:13 AM
Remember, O-Chul's still an NPC, so he has DM's (or in this case, writers) protection. He's allowed to start with unspeakably large stats, if that's what the plot calls for.

Epinephrine
2009-05-27, 11:21 AM
Wow. After the most recent strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), it looks like O'Chul's hit points are even more ridiculous then we all though.

Did he make 4 attacks that round? It looks that way. The bar *might* be a double weapon, but it looks like he's hitting with the same end each time, suggesting a +16 BAB, no?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-27, 03:43 PM
Wow. After the most recent strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), it looks like O'Chul's hit points are even more ridiculous then we all though.

Disintegrate: 14d6 or higher (Save for only 5d6 damage)
Meteor Storm: 32d6 (No Save if Xykon made his touch attacks)
Maximized Lightning Bolt: 60 damage (Ref Save for Half)

I just don't know how he could swing a Con in the mid 20's around ECL 10ish without any equipment. I guess the only rational conclusion is that Rich ignores crunchy matters if they stand in the way of good story telling (which I'm fine with).He probably made the Disintigrate save, meaning 189 damage. Xykon could have rolled low, or O'Chul could have leveled since we learned that he was weaker than Miko.

Justin B.
2009-05-27, 06:47 PM
It's obvious that the assumption that O'Chul is only 10th level is flawed.

If the OotS is around 13-15, Miko could have been around 13-15, meaning the O'Chul might have been ECL 10 when Xykon tackled the throne room.

However, this precludes the ideas that these traps and tortures were not legitimate threats for O'Chul to overcome. Sure, he didn't escape from Xykon, but he did overcome the acid pit, he overcame the shark, and he killed the guards who threw him in.

Imagine how many things he would have killed in the zombie gladiators scenario that Xykon and Pigtail-chick were setting up?

Not to mention the "encounters" between himself and Redcloak during interrogation. Throwing a "charisma dumped" Paladin into a "social" situation and forcing him to act could certainly be argued a challenge, therefore, worthy of experience.

Yes, I think it's quite safe to say that O'Chul has gained levels since being captured.