Is he THAT tough?

[babaganoush]

I remember Hinjo saying O-Chul is the toughest paladin of them all, but... man! Did he just survived that Disintegrate?
I know there have been other characters that have survived a disintegrate, but when Hinjo got hit by one, he was barely alive. Man, even the Black Dragon got hurt badly.
O-Chul's toughness compares to that of an ABD. Who could tell?

[Cizak]

The dragon that was hurt badly by a Disintegrate was NOT ancient, it was a young adult. The ABD was hit by a Quickened Disintegrate and she was barely hurt, too.


But yes, he IS tough.

[Zerg Cookie]

He made his save
Paladins have good fort saves, and O-Chul's con is in the mid 20's
Edit: O-Chul is a Fighter/Paladin, but fighters have good fort saves too

[Ave]

I remember Hinjo saying O-Chul is the toughest paladin of them all, but... man! Did he just survived that Disintegrate?
I know there have been other characters that have survived a disintegrate, but when Hinjo got hit by one, he was barely alive. Man, even the Black Dragon got hurt badly.
O-Chul's toughness compares to that of an ABD. Who could tell?

5d6 damage is not that much (with fortitude save).

[dps]

I know there have been other characters that have survived a disintegrate, but when Hinjo got hit by one, he was barely alive. Man, even the Black Dragon got hurt badly.


Hinjo was jumping off a ship when he was hit by the disintegrate, and it knocked him backwards onto the deck. The spell itself didn't hurt him much, but he got knocked out when his head hit the deck.

[Dreadon]

Disintegrate a Save or die spell. if you make it you get a scrach if you dont you die. A pally has good saves for all stats and O-Chul has one of the highest Fort saves in the game the only way he could have died from that spell woudl have been if he had rolled a 1 on a D20.

[Benj]

This is nothing on surviving; not only the explosion caused when the gate shattered (which split Miko in two, baring in mind she is higher level than him), but also the fall from where he was blasted (probably similar in height to the fall that killed Roy, who is also higher level than him). There are whole threads which ill tell you this in lots of creative ways but O-chul is TOUGH

[averagejoe]

He made his save
Paladins have good fort saves, and O-Chul's con is in the mid 20's
Edit: O-Chul is a Fighter/Paladin, but fighters have good fort saves too

Actually a fighter/paladin will have a better fort save than either a fighter or a paladin.

[Zolem]

Disintegrate a Save or die spell. if you make it you get a scrach if you dont you die. A pally has good saves for all stats and O-Chul has one of the highest Fort saves in the game the only way he could have died from that spell woudl have been if he had rolled a 1 on a D20.

Psst, wrong edition. His save reduces the damage to 5d6 instead of 40d6 as I assume Redcloak is maximized number of dice.

[Zerg Cookie]

If we assume that O-Chul is level 12 or 13, he has a +8 to fort saves from class levels
And we know his Con is in the mid 20's, so let's assume he get a +7 from it (24/25).
Saving against a 6th-level spell Redcloak casts has a DC of 20 (At least)
So all he need is 5 or more on the d20, which means he has an 80% chance to save (I know you'd think it's 75%, but trust me. I'll explain if you REALLY want me to)

Also, O-Chul may have like 13d10+13*5~ (Because he didn't have 25 con at 1ts level, so let's assume it's the average), and if we convert it to d6's it's about 35d6~, which is enough to survive even if he failed his save

[Zolem]

Well, yeah, because a 1-4 would be a failure, so that means that 20% is a failure, so the 80% left over is success.

Also, he is the TOUGHEST Paladin and SECOND IN COMMAND. Let's not forget that Miko said (I beleive) that she had the second highest number of levels for the order. O-Chul could very well be the highest level NPC in all of the Saphire Guard. Make him level 17 or so, and he can really kick ass.

[Jaysyn]

Disintegrate a Save or die spell. if you make it you get a scrach if you dont you die. A pally has good saves for all stats and O-Chul has one of the highest Fort saves in the game the only way he could have died from that spell woudl have been if he had rolled a 1 on a D20.

Maybe in 2nd Edition

Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)

[Zerg Cookie]

Also, he is the TOUGHEST Paladin and SECOND IN COMMAND. Let's not forget that Miko said (I beleive) that she had the second highest number of levels for the order. O-Chul could very well be the highest level NPC in all of the Saphire Guard. Make him level 17 or so, and he can really kick ass.

2nd page, last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
:miko:You may be the second most powerful paladin in the guard, Hinjo, but you know you are still no match for me in battle

Loophole: O-Chul is not a single-classed paladin.
More loophole: So was Miko

[NerfTW]

Well we know he's not higher level than Roy, due to Eugene's comment about being the highest level good character on the battle field.

But still, he's likely close to Roy's level.

[DarkEternal]

Well, he wasn't the highest levelled character before, but from when Miko said that and today a lot of time passed, most of it for O'Chul a time when he had to get loads of experience on practically a daily basis. Who knows, maybe he surpassed her level wise already.

[Zolem]

Also,s eh never said she was the highest level herself. She mgiht have been 3rd highest but felt that her monk training gave her an extream advantage over the single classed Hinjo.

[Forbiddenwar]

Well we know he's not higher level than Roy, due to Eugene's comment about being the highest level good character on the battle field.

But still, he's likely close to Roy's level.

O-chul wasn't on the battlefield. He was in the tower. So he could have been higher than Roy.
Besides, Eugene is not the most reliable narrator. He may have said that just to push Roy's buttons.

[Tomada]

You forget that Miko was HIGHER level than the OOTS, so O-Chul could be the same level, as 15. Or even higher after some months of torture.

[Kurald Galain]

Psst, wrong edition. His save reduces the damage to 5d6 instead of 40d6 as I assume Redcloak is maximized number of dice.

He probably hasn't - there is no indication that Redcloak is level 20. He's more likely to be 15 or so.

[Zolem]

You forget that Miko was HIGHER level than the OOTS, so O-Chul could be the same level, as 15. Or even higher after some months of torture.

Since he did three attacks in a single round (attack, trip, dissarm) he is at least level 15, but less than 20.

[King of Nowhere]

1) Miko said she was the highest level in the sapphire guard, and she was 15-16. She also said Hinjo was second, and he's around the dozen. This leaves O-Chul third, we may assume he had maybe a level on Hinjo at the time but leveled during captivity. O-Chul's level is in the 11-14 range.

2) The fighter levels improve O-chul saving throw over the base paladin, because there's the extra +2 at first level. If O-chul is 13th level, he's got a base of +10 (for any combination of fighter and paladin), when a 13th level paladin got a +8.

3) O-Chul's con is stated to be in the mid 20s, but I don't see how. Assuming he started with an 18, and is at least 12 level, he could only got a 21 without magic items. Also, O-chul probably already took some aging penalties, making it a 20 without items. The only way he could get more con is by having an inherent bonus from having found somehow the right book, but it is unlikely at his level.
On the upper hand, you gain hp retroactively when you increase your con.

4) I don't think the dc against a disintegrate from redcloak is 20. A cleric of his level, focused on spellcasting and weak in melee, has at least a +6, probably a +7 in wisdom. Still, O-Chul has a decent chance of saving, as it seems has happened. Still, he has enough hp to survive a full disintegrate from Redcloak, probably even two disintegrate.

5) If we conside the bar O-Chul is wielding an improvised spear, he also get extra damage for charge. So you get enough damage to put redcloak in a bad shape.
I wonder, if it's so easy to take away the holy simbol of a cleric, why no one else did it before.

6) Redcloak was 15th level during the battle, assuming he leveled I don't see him higher than 17. Disintegrate would deal 2d6 per level on a failed save, so 34 top.

[King of Nowhere]

Since he did three attacks in a single round (attack, trip, dissarm) he is at least level 15, but less than 20.

Correction: at least 11, no more than 15.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

2nd page, last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
:miko:You may be the second most powerful paladin in the guard, Hinjo, but you know you are still no match for me in battle

Loophole: O-Chul is not a single-classed paladin.
More loophole: So was Miko

There's a difference between toughness and power. Hinjo could probably take O-chul in a fight (or rather, he could take a higher level evil thing, so the use of their paladin powers were put in the equation) but throughout said fight, o-chul could probably take more punishment

[Zerg Cookie]

Redcloak was 15th level during the battle, assuming he leveled I don't see him higher than 17. Disintegrate would deal 2d6 per level on a failed save, so 34 top.

He could have been over 15 at the time of the battle of Azure city
As much as I can remember, the only evidence for him being only level 15 is his blade barrier damage dealing 15d6 damage, which is the maximum for blade barrier.
So he was at least level 15, probably higher. Or maybe I missed some evidence...

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

[Axl_Rose]

Damn it Tsukiko, this is all your fault!

[Jaysyn]

Psst, wrong edition. His save reduces the damage to 5d6 instead of 40d6 as I assume Redcloak is maximized number of dice.

Why would you think that Redcloak is 20th lvl? He hasn't used any spells above 8th that I am aware of.

[Shadic]

O-Chul's con is stated to be in the mid 20s, but I don't see how.

He likely just got an awesome bonus. He's an NPC, and making a character with higher than 18 as a base stat is entirely feasible.

O-Chul is just one tough mofo.

[Jaysyn]

....making a character with higher than 18 as a base stat is entirely feasible.


Sure, if he wasn't human.

[Moriarty]

There's a difference between toughness and power. Hinjo could probably take O-chul in a fight (or rather, he could take a higher level evil thing, so the use of their paladin powers were put in the equation) but throughout said fight, o-chul could probably take more punishment

/agree


Ochul might be tough, because high con etc. but with charisma as a dump stat, his smitings arent nearly as powerful as Mikos or Hinjos

[shadzar]

Damn it Tsukiko, this is all your fault!

:smallconfused: You think a paladin wouldn't hit a girl that was evil-aligned and helped kill many members of, and take over your entire city?

She would have been boned (:smallbiggrin: boned!) to stick around.

[Silverraptor]

Also, O-Chul may have like 13d10+13*5~ (Because he didn't have 25 con at 1ts level, so let's assume it's the average), and if we convert it to d6's it's about 35d6~, which is enough to survive even if he failed his save

WRONG, SIR!!! It doesn't matter *what* your con is at first level, it stacks if you con goes up. I've played plenty of tanks so I've done many of caluclations on increased con modifiers.

Here's an example (I'll make it simple). Say a wizard just reaches 4th level and has a 13 +1 con. Now i'm just going to average the hp so at 3rd level he would have 9 hp total, (2hp +1) So if he puts a point into con making it 14 +2, by what you said, he would have 13 hp at 4th level (9 hp + (2 hp +2)). But when you finally calculate in the past levels and add a +1 hp for each level, the wizards actual hp is 16, not 13.

And that is what happens when your con goes up. I think it even applies to skill points if your INT goes up as well. You get an extra skill point for each existing levels.

[BRC]

Miko said she was the strongest paladin in the sapphire guard. I see several ways O-Chul could be this tough. Either Miko wasn't counting O-Chul's fighter levels, or she just THOUGHT she was more powerful than the Chulster.

[skeeter_dan]

I wonder, if it's so easy to take away the holy simbol of a cleric, why no one else did it before.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm:


As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.

If you’re attempting to disarm a melee weapon, follow the steps outlined here. If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails.
Since Redcloak's holy symbol is not a weapon, he takes a penalty on the opposed attack roll.

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.
Redcloak is not armed with a melee weapon and does not threaten with his unarmed attacks, therefore he doesn't get an attack of opportunity. O'Chul could feasibly have the Improved Disarm feat, but it's not necessary for the sequence of events in the comic.


Step 2
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.
O'Chul is wielding a two-handed weapon and gets a +4 bonus on the opposed attack rolls. However, it's likely considered an improvised weapon and thus takes a -4 to the roll, so that balances out. Redcloak is not wielding a weapon, so takes a -4 penalty on the roll. As a multi-classed fighter/paladin, O'Chul has a higher base attack bonus than Redcloak the cleric, and likely a higher strength modifier as well. Thus, O'Chul easily wins the opposed attack rolls and succeeds on disarming Redcloak: the phylactery/holy symbol falls to the ground.

[Borris]

In this scene, it seems Redcloak wins the initiative and goes first as. We know that Redcloak is at least a 15th-level cleric, and specialised in spellcasting. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he's 16th-level, with a Wisdom score of 24 (16 starting, +4 from levels, +4 from items; or any other combination that gives the same). He uses quite a wide array of spells, so it's unlikely he has any Spell Focus feat. That leaves his save DC for Disintegrate at DC 24, for an average of 56 hp of damage on a failed save, and 18 on a successful one.

Now we know O-Chul is a multiclass fighter/paladin, with likely more paladin levels. We know Charisma was his initial dump stat, so I don't expect it to be any higher than 11, but we also know he is the toughest paladin around. Assuming a starting Constitution score of 18 and 2-3 level increases, that leaves him at 20. (the Giant said his Constitution score was in the mid-20's, but that must have been with magic items). Let's say he's a fighter4/paladin8. He ends up with a hp total of 130, and his fortitude saving throw is +15. He saves on a roll of 9, so he has a 60% chance of succeeding (and he apparently did). But even if he failed his save, he'd still be slighty above half of his hp. You can argue with the numbers I've given, but even with one less level for O-Chul and one more for Redcloak, O-Chul is still more likely to save than not and can take two average-damage unsaved disintegrate spells without dying.

Now for O-Chul's attacks. Redcloak was already hurt. I doubt he would have saved against V's Chain Lightning, as Reflex is Redcloak's worst saving throw. That leaves him with 35 points of damage (out of maybe 90-110, depending on whether he has a Constitution modifier of +1 or +2). I don't think O-Chul was charging or he likely wouldn't have made three attacks. Let's assume a Strength score of 16. His bonus to hit on a full-attack would be +11/+6/+1.

First attack was a critical hit (as hinted by the strip's title). What O-Chul is using looks like an improvised spear, so average damage would be 33 (2x(1d8+4 plus 8 from smite)). Along with the 35 from Chain Lighting, that leaves Redcloak under 50% of his total hp (even assume 16th-level cleric with 14 a Constitution).

Let's take the second attack to be a Trip attempt. Redcloak gets no attack of opportunity since he's unarmed. The bonus may be only +6, but it's a touch attack, so it's easy to hit. A +3 Str check opposed by Redcloak's Str or Dex is likely to succeed, and even moreso if you consider Redcloak to be small-sized despite what the art makes it look like.

Third attack either a Disarm or a Sunder on the holy symbol's chain. But you can only sunder a weapon or shield the opponent is holding. In the case of Disarm, Redcloak still gets no attack of opporunity. Then there's an opposed attack roll, which would be O-Chul's two-handed improvised weapin (at +15) versus Redcloak's unarmed strike (likely at +8, assuming a Str of 10). Furthermore, "if the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus." So that's an even easier win for O-Chul. But let's not forget it's O-Chul's third attack, so it's +9 for O-Chl vs +8 for Redclokak, still tilted in O-Chul's favor. Now Redcloak may have a Str of 8 since goblins get a Str penalty and Redcloak never fights with a weapon, and he may also have a -4 size penalty on the opposed roll.

Round 2. Redcloak goes first again. He's at roughly 68 points of damage out of 90-110. He can't cast most of his spells since he doesn't have his holy symbol. If he gets up, O-Chul gets an attack of opportunity with a +4 bonus (and likely with another Smite Evil thrown in), and what is Redcloak going to do without a holy symbol or a weapon? Xykon can take care of O-Chul. Besides, Redcloak doesn't care about the lich enough to risk another full-attack from O-Chul.

[Dalenthas]

It's generally agreed that Miko was the "most powerful" but O-Chul was always the Toughest. Miko's Con was probably 14-16 or so, while O-Chul's is 24-26 or so. Start with an 18, +3 for level (if he's level 12+), a +3 book isn't entirely out of the question (though it'd account for the vast majority of his gear by level). It's possible that the OoTS campaign setting also includes new fighter-only Feats (as evidenced by Horace teaching Roy a new feat that doesn't match any feats in the core rules) to make him more badass, possibly including an Mega Toughness feat that actually adds to Con... actually, that's a really good idea for a house rule...
We could theoretically assume he also has Boxers of Constitution +4 if we wanted to, though I'm fairly sure Redcloak would have cast Detect Magic and ripped anything magical off of our out of his body painfully before now.

[Pronounceable]

Of course not, he's tougher.

[Ted The Bug]

Yes his is.

[Cracklord]

Ochul might be tough, because high con etc. but with charisma as a dump stat, his smitings arent nearly as powerful as Mikos or Hinjos

I'll wager Redcloak would disagree with that particular aseesment.

Belkar hypothosised that Redcloak was 17th level, just after the battle. Admitedly Belkar is a less then reliable narrator, but there you go.

Also, he's likely around fifteen, as he made three attacks (assuming none missed). This would blace his costitution in the 21-22 range.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Also, he's likely around fifteen, as he made three attacks (assuming none missed). This would blace his costitution in the 21-22 range.What three attacks? He hit Redcloak in the eye, and then either used a disarm or a sunder to remove the holy symbol. That's two. He doesn't do a trip, or at least none that I see any action for. The eye being put out and RC falling over seem to be plot related, as neither occur in D&D without house rules or a trip attack.

And the third attack (KATHUNNK!) takes place in round two, or RC couldn't cast the WoR spell. So, two attacks per round for O-Chul.

[Zevox]

He could have been over 15 at the time of the battle of Azure city
As much as I can remember, the only evidence for him being only level 15 is his blade barrier damage dealing 15d6 damage, which is the maximum for blade barrier.
So he was at least level 15, probably higher. Or maybe I missed some evidence...
You didn't. That's all the evidence we have of his level - we know he can cast 8th-level spells, and that his Blade Barrier does 15d6 damage. That puts him at level 15+. But why would you assume he's "probably higher" without any other evidence?

Incidentally, for those figuring the odds of O-Chul making the fortitude save, we know from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) that the save DC on his Destruction spell was at least 22. Assuming this wasn't due to some Spell Focus feat, that means his Disintegrate is at least DC 21 (and that he has a wisdom of 20 or higher - which would actually be low for a pure Cleric focused on spellcasting of his level).


Also, he's likely around fifteen, as he made three attacks (assuming none missed).
As the poster above me said, I see only two, not three. And in any event, with full bab per level (as a Fighter/Paladin would have) you get three attacks starting at level 11.

Zevox

[Shpadoinkle]

He could very well have found or bought (and read) a Manual of Bodily Health. Since his Constitution was stated somewhere to be in the mid-twenties (just for argument's sake, let's say it's 25), that means he could have started with a Constitution of 17, added his bonus stat points to Con at levels 4, 8, and 12, then used the Manual for a 5 point boost. If he's level 16 or higher, he could have started with a Con of 16 and still have it up to 25 at this point. I'm sure there are other ways of permanently raising one's Constitution score, but I don't know of them right offhand.

[KillianHawkeye]

WRONG, SIR!!! It doesn't matter *what* your con is at first level, it stacks if you con goes up. I've played plenty of tanks so I've done many of caluclations on increased con modifiers.

Here's an example (I'll make it simple). Say a wizard just reaches 4th level and has a 13 +1 con. Now i'm just going to average the hp so at 3rd level he would have 9 hp total, (2hp +1) So if he puts a point into con making it 14 +2, by what you said, he would have 13 hp at 4th level (9 hp + (2 hp +2)). But when you finally calculate in the past levels and add a +1 hp for each level, the wizards actual hp is 16, not 13.

And that is what happens when your con goes up. I think it even applies to skill points if your INT goes up as well. You get an extra skill point for each existing levels.

WRONG!! You don't get retroactive skill points for Intelligence increases. You also don't get skill points for temporary increases from items. :smallwink:

[The Pilgrim]

2nd page, last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
:miko:You may be the second most powerful paladin in the guard, Hinjo, but you know you are still no match for me in battle

Loophole: O-Chul is not a single-classed paladin.
More loophole: So was Miko

Even more loophole: That doesn't imply that Miko IS the most powerfull paladin in the Guard.

So even more loophole: Miko was deluded about her role as God's willmaker, and quite possible also about her own capabilities. O-Chul on the other hand looks more like the wise type that doesn't go around bragging about his strenght.

[Silverraptor]

WRONG!! You don't get retroactive skill points for Intelligence increases. You also don't get skill points for temporary increases from items. :smallwink:

Ok, so maybe not Int (As I stated that I wasn't certain)... but I'm positive that Con works that way.

[Cracklord]

Ok, so maybe not Int (As I stated that I wasn't certain)... but I'm positive that Con works that way.

Well I hope so, or I've been playing DnD wrong for years.

[Silverraptor]

Well I hope so, or I've been playing DnD wrong for years.

Hehe.:smallamused: Maybe we all have been.

[BillyJimBoBob]

WRONG!! You don't get retroactive skill points for Intelligence increases. You also don't get skill points for temporary increases from items. :smallwink:WRONG! Nah, I just said that for the fun of it. It is kinda lame that the rules are different between CON and INT increases. One rule one effect is usually the best way to go, and a few additional skill points isn't going to break the game*.




* Any more than it is already broken, that is.

[Steward]

I guess he is that tough.

[Fostire]

Even more loophole: That doesn't imply that Miko IS the most powerfull paladin in the Guard.

Actually, it does. If Hinjo is the second most powerful paladin, and Miko can beat him (as implied by the "you're no match for me" part), then logic says that Miko is indeed the most powerful paladin in the guard.

[Axl_Rose]

:smallconfused: You think a paladin wouldn't hit a girl that was evil-aligned and helped kill many members of, and take over your entire city?

She would have been boned (:smallbiggrin: boned!) to stick around.

Of course I don't think that; but she could have assisted RC. She's pretty powerful in her own right.

[Shadic]

Sure, if he wasn't human.
Or he's an NPC with fudged stats.

[Spiky]

Actually, it does. If Hinjo is the second most powerful paladin, and Miko can beat him (as implied by the "you're no match for me" part), then logic says that Miko is indeed the most powerful paladin in the guard.

Yes, of course it does. That is the very definition of "imply". Perhaps the poster meant to say "That doesn't guarantee..."

[ericgrau]

O-Chul may not be the strongest paladin, but Hinjo clearly said he was the toughest. He probably has the highest con and hp. Assuming 13th level and 21 con (18 + 3 from levels), that's 141 HP. Even if he did fail his fortitude save against the disintegrate, 40d6 averages to 140 damage at caster level 20. RC's disintegrate probably does 36d6-ish for 126 damage. If he makes the save, which his battle damage seems to indicate, he only takes 1/4 damage.

Sundering a worn object is much easier than sundering a weapon. It's only 10 + wearer's dex mod + object's size mod (2, assuming the symbol is "tiny" like the phylactery). Even with an improvised weapon and no sundering feat (though as a fighter he could easily have the feat), it's an easy attempt. Disarming is just as easy, and arguable this might have been a disarm attempt.

Why don't more people sunder/disarm holy symbols? Or sunder spell component pouches? Or grapple casters? Or ready actions to disrupt spells? Or silence them? Dispel their buffs? Or get a race/class with spell resistance? Or get immunity to 101 spells from their cleric buddy? Use anti-magic fields? Etc.? Beats me, they really should. Though that could lead to spare holy symbols, eschew material components, still spell, combat casting, freedom of movement, contingency, gloves of arrow snatching, silent spell, etc. But then that takes lots of feats, higher level spell slots, gold spent on magic items, etc. Still, it would really mitigate casters if DMs and martial-players started using more interesting tactics instead of "bash your foe til he drops". It's not like they've never seen a caster before.

[derfenrirwolv]

Why don't more people sunder/disarm holy symbols?

Because that trick only works ONCE.. against a player or a dm. After that they will have backup holy symbols, and holy symbols welded or engraved onto their armor.




Or sunder spell component pouches?

Because then the spell components are still in the square.




Or grapple casters?

People DO grapple casters. Even picking monsters out of the monster manual at random will give you a ton of graplers. Seems every monster from a third party source book does it too. In one campaign it got to the point that i refused to play a sorcerer simply because of how boned they are by grappling rules.




Or ready actions to disrupt spells?

That's not as viable as you'd think. You have to declare specifically what PARTIAL action you're going to take in someone elses round. So, melee needs to START your round standing next to the spell caster. You then need to specify

1) Take 5 foot step and attack when they cast

OR

2) Partial charge when they cast

If you specify 1 and they move back, suck up the attack of opportunity, you don't get to interrupt. You've traded a full attack for 1 attack of opportunity.

If you ready a partial charge and they 5 foot step back and cast, you've completely wasted your round.

If the caster simply withdraws, you've lost your action for the round either way

So for melee this is pretty much a waste of time. Archers have trouble doing enough damage to beat the casters concentration check.

Blasty wizards though, it works better than counter spell.



Or silence them?

Will save or they can just move away from it.




Dispel their buffs?

Happens all the time. Of course, the right buffs will prevent that from happening long enough for the caster to kill them



Or get a race/class with spell resistance?

Racial and class SR tends not to scale very well to encounters.



Or get immunity to 101 spells from their cleric buddy?

Because by the time the cleric can do that the foes are raining down the 407: A comprehensive look at arcane obliteration versions


Use anti-magic fields?

Because the people that can make them are the ones that are boned by them.

[theinsulabot]

:smallconfused: You think a paladin wouldn't hit a girl that was evil-aligned and helped kill many members of, and take over your entire city?

She would have been boned (:smallbiggrin: boned!) to stick around.



why are you bringing miko into this?


:smallamused:

[RebelRogue]

3) O-Chul's con is stated to be in the mid 20s, but I don't see how. Assuming he started with an 18, and is at least 12 level, he could only got a 21 without magic items. Also, O-chul probably already took some aging penalties, making it a 20 without items. The only way he could get more con is by having an inherent bonus from having found somehow the right book, but it is unlikely at his level.
I've always sort of assumed he was one of thouse prodigious characters (I don't remember what book they're from, but they're generally thought to be mostly NPCs) that got a Con bonus. Fits his concept quite well.

[ericgrau]

....

Pouch: You need to draw a spell component to cast a spell. If the pouch is merely in your square, it's a move action that provokes to pick up something from it.

Readied Actions to disrupt: You typically use a ranged attack for this, not melee, hence the glove of arrow snatching counter. Even in melee you may combine a 5 foot step with a readied action. The ranged version is a common tactic. Scorching ray, etc. works too of course.

Silence: Has a 20 foot radius which can cover an entire room, or at least the entire area the caster can safely move. Also a common tactic.

SR: Tends to increase 1 for 1 with level. Caster level tends to increase the same way, since in core at least there is very little to increase it and it's expensive. FWIW a high level monk has a far better chance against a caster than a fighter or barbarian for this reason, though some may say that doesn't mean much. Drow also get decent progression, many high level monsters have it, etc.

Immunities: On the monster side a lot of monsters have 101 inherant immunities. Common in high level monsters.

AMF: The guy using the AMF doesn't have to be the one fighting. He can screw you while his buddy fights. Common tactic of an old DM of mine.

Though, again, there are the counters to these I mentioned before.

[the_tick_rules]

You just need a fortitude save to not be dusted. Palading have good saving throws.

[Schaffer1979]

I just had to get in on the debate.

You can only use Miko's statement as factual if the debaters agree she was a reliable character/narrator. She may have always been sincerely telling the truth as she knew it but that does not mean she was telling THE truth or that she was right or accurate.

I don't hold Miko as a reliable source of information, especially since canon shows that she twists things to fit her own opinions, available for your analysis throughout the story since she was introduced.
--------------

And with regard to the whole O-chul/Hinjo fight...paladin levels and smite evil do not matter as both people are lawful good and would not be impacted by that ability. I would actually say since O-chul has more fighter levels and higher con that he likely would be more accurate and be able to outlast Hinjo with his ability to take more damage, make more fort saves if any massive damage rules were in place and possess the same ability to heal (the last which is debatable or could be thrown out depending on if the DM lets the paladin use lay on hands in small increments until the total is used up or only allows one use of lay on hands in totality).

[Zombie Nixon]

O-Chul's probably gained 2-3 levels from all the torture

[Dagren]

(the last which is debatable or could be thrown out depending on if the DM lets the paladin use lay on hands in small increments until the total is used up or only allows one use of lay on hands in totality).
Lay on Hands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#layonHands)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.The rules seem pretty clear on this point, I don't think a DM would argue this unless he was actively trying to screw you.

[derfenrirwolv]

Ericgrau

Pouch: You need to draw a spell component to cast a spell. If the pouch is merely in your square, it's a move action that provokes to pick up something from it.

it still has the same problems as sundering the holy symbol. People will start carrying spares or tucking certain materials in the sleeves of their robes. Its also a houserule mess as to what happens to the components. If you smash the thing i'm carrying sulfer and bat guano around in, chances are there's some i can pluck off my robes.


Readied Actions to disrupt: You typically use a ranged attack for this, not melee, hence the glove of arrow snatching counter.

Ranged just doesn't hurt enough to get through the concentration check. Spellcasters.. yeah, they're pretty dumb for not doing this.



Even in melee you may combine a 5 foot step with a readied action. The ranged version is a common tactic. Scorching ray, etc. works too of course.

You can only combine the 5 foot step with a readied action if you started the round next to the caster. You cannot 5 foot step and move or charge at all.




Silence: Has a 20 foot radius which can cover an entire room, or at least the entire area the caster can safely move. Also a common tactic.

Its still only 4 squares. Mayby i have a bigger gaming table than you? :smallsmile:


SR: Tends to increase 1 for 1 with level. Caster level tends to increase the same way, since in core at least there is very little to increase it and it's expensive. FWIW a high level monk has a far better chance against a caster than a fighter or barbarian for this reason, though some may say that doesn't mean much. Drow also get decent progression, many high level monsters have it, etc.

The core monk can't HIT a caster at that level...
Drow is higher than i remembered, but its still 2 below your ecl. (and often not allowed by dms)



Immunities: On the monster side a lot of monsters have 101 inherant immunities. Common in high level monsters.

Right, but doesn't help the players much.


AMF: The guy using the AMF doesn't have to be the one fighting. He can screw you while his buddy fights. Common tactic of an old DM of mine.

Right, but that doubles the difficulty of the encounter. And it would be harder to kill the pair if Warrior was playing body guard and the high level wizard was blasting. It does work well for parries though

[Superglucose]

or only allows one use of lay on hands in totality).

What kind of GM would do that? Not only is it against RAW but it nerfs a class that doesn't need nerfing :smallconfused:



Lay on Hands (Su)

Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once.