Reactions to Start of Darkness (Spoilers, Obviously)

[[TS] Shadow]

I just finished reading Start of Darkness, and I have to say that it is a great book. If you haven't read it yet, get up, buy it, read it, then come back.

The book is just masterfully done, making the villains the most developed and relatable characters in the entire series. However, most of the people tend to see Redcloak as a "sympathetic" character after reading, and I honestly can't agree with that. At the beginning, sure. He's honestly making sacrifices in order to improve the well being of the goblin race. However, as time goes on, I can't see Redcloak as a sympathetic character anymore because his real motivations changed after spending so much time and energy on the Plan. He became so attached to it that if he gave up on it, his entire life would have been pointless. What began as a “noble” action became a selfish one, to the point where he’s willing to sacrifice lives in order to prove he wasn’t wrong. It’s really relatable to how V is acting in the current strips. While not a bad character (anything but, Redcloak is awesome) he isn’t as noble and upstanding as the members of this forum have played him out to be.

If I had to give the award of “Most Subtly Developed Character,” it would be Xykon. Most people who only read the online strip would think that Xykon is just a jerk who enjoys bossing people around and killing things…and to be fair they’re right. However, I find that why he acts like that is one of the greatest strokes of genius that the Giant has ever had. Xykon is just an angry kid who is tired of being treated like he’s inferior and wants to stand out in some way, and he chooses to do this be being evil. He really shows how stuck up wizards are in the OotS world as well. Sorcerers are seen as “untalented” and that they only got their magic by pure luck. This sort of thing naturally ticks Xykon off, and that’s something that is relatable to me. He knows what he’s doing is wrong, yet he doesn’t care. While that sounds like stereotypical villain, the way it plays out in SoD make it seem like much more.

The real sympathetic character of them all is Right-Eye. Right-Eye is a very believable and relatable character. He made some mistakes in the past that he just wants to move on from. While Redcloak foolishly holds on to his hopes, Right-Eye can admit that he was wrong and move on. His frustration at being forced to remain in the past accumulates at the end, where he tries to attack Xykon. We’ve all been in a situation that we just want to get out of, and I can admire Right-Eye’s determination to be freed from his confinement.

The developed and emotional characters as well as the darker storyline made me feel like I wasn’t even reading an OotS story anymore. While humor was still present, it wasn’t as laugh-out-loud funny as it is in the online strip or in OtOotPCs. I think that it’s like that on purpose, though, because if things were too funny, it would ruin the general tone of the story. I think that the Giant realized how depressing he was making the last few pages, and he added in the part with the MitD’s tacos. This is really the only part of the book that falls flat for me. It doesn’t contribute to the plot and is just there to lighten the mood between depressing monologues (some of which are absolutely fantastic.)

Start of Darkness filled in a lot of blanks for me, and it also showed that anything, even OotS, can have a really well developed and dark storyline.

[SPoD]

Shadow;6127278']I think that the Giant realized how depressing he was making the last few pages, and he added in the part with the MitD’s tacos. This is really the only part of the book that falls flat for me. It doesn’t contribute to the plot and is just there to lighten the mood between depressing monologues (some of which are absolutely fantastic.)

I disagree slightly: I think the taco jokes are there precisely for one moment. When the MITD notices that Right-Eye is dead, he says something like "Bummer, dude" to Redcloak--and Redcloak lashes out at him in impotent rage, flinging his tacos all over the place. This is an important moment because it shows Redcloak's fury and self-hatred, and how he chooses to take it out on someone else. It establishes for the first time the pecking order we see in the main comic: Xykon picks on Redcloak, Redcloak picks on MITD.

It also has a subtext of telling the audience "Shove the comedy up your ass. We know that OOTS is a comedy story, but this is frickin' dead serious. It can't be undone with a punchline or a joke panel. Take it seriously, NOW." If anything, I think it enhances the depressing mood at the very end of the book by slapping any attempt at lightheartedness down.

Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

[Lissou]

I like your analysis.

Redcloak is my favourite character and obviously I loved the character development from Start of Darkness. I agree he's not that perfect, noble guy, but I don't think he's only doing it because he can't admit he's wrong. There is some of that, but also the fact that he's dedicating his life to that task, and he thinks the end justifies the means. He sacrificing lives, true, but he doesn't seem to care more than that about sacrificing his own to the Snarl (he admits it's a clear possibility).

The end if very rushed for him, and I think it really establishes Xykon as bullying Redcloak and having a lot of power over him. However he's been getting away from that.
At the beginning of the strip, soon after SoD ends, RC is submitted to Xykon, but shocked when he kills goblins (I realise he wasn't developed as a character then, but I think it's perfectly coherent).

Later, when they meet up with the hobgoblins, he's still pissed at Xykon for killing the goblins, but he also joins in the sacrificing out of revenge from being bullied by the hobos... and I daresay it's a possible transfer of his rage against Xykon that he knows he can't have against him (whether he's aware of it or not).
It's even more obvious with the Xykon decoys. And then something happens to Redcloak, and he realises he'd been turning into Xykon by sacrificing hobgoblins like that, and he's putting a stop to it. Later, when torturing O-Chul, he doesn't kill any of the humans he's threatening to kill. Not that he cares about their lives, no. But I think that's one thing that separates Redcloak and Xykon (apart the time when Redcloak was turning into Xykon, as he said): Xykon will kill for fun. Redcloak will kill for a reason.
We might not think his reasons are good, but if he has no reason, even if he could kill easily, then he doesn't bother. I think it's an important difference.

For Redcloak, the end justifies the means, it's obvious and clear. Xykon doesn't care that much about the end, he just wants to have fun during the "means" part.

Redcloak has been growing further and further from Xykon. He's a lot less respectful than he used to be, and he doesn't trust him at all. He lies to him, he follows his own agenda and gets Xykon to want the same thing if possible, while avoiding direct confrontation.

What is interesting is that right now, Redcloak went out of the picture. Away from Xykon (possibly. Unless he teleported like right next to where he was before). What will happen next? I think that could be extremely interesting.
Will Tsukiko "replace" Redcloak with Xykon, while RC finds someone else? Will he think about it all while he's away? Will he just come back because he can't change tracks now?

For all we know, they still don't know how Girard's gate is protected. But Redcloak knows where all gates are, he decrypted it himself. He could in theory go there directly. I'm not saying that it's likely, but I have to say I am very curious... Will he decide the hobgoblin city has been established enough, for instance?

Anyway, that's another discussion altogether. I just wanted to share my two cents.

[Ancalagon]

I agree to the posters before, but Taco-Night also establishes something else which is very important: The Creature is not going to be useful as minion. It got a direct, very simple order (take the zombies and just go there) and was unable to execute it because it did not like it, did not WANT it.
Instead of taking part in the madness of the battle that is all around, it just does "something" else, something harmless and something it likes.

While all drowned in fighting and seriousness, the creature in the shadow showed very, very clearly that it is going to pretend all that does not happen and refuses to take part into it. And it escalates all in the Right-eye-death-scene that was mentioned ("Oh, bummer, he was fun!")
Also, in contrast to all the other characters this scene makes very clear the creature does not have any goals, any amibitions, any ties to anything Redcloak and Xykon are doing.

[King of Nowhere]

I want to point out two things.
First, Redcloak. I'm one of those who roots for him, and that's for many reasons, but one of the most important is that he accepted to live with his brother in the small village before Xykon came and spoiled everything.
If not for Xykon, Redcloak would have settled, and I don't see him doing any evilness in that village: he just would not have enough reasons to try to attack the humans.
But Redcloak cannot turn away because Xykon will track him wherever he goes.
And, frankly, if I were a goblin in a D&D based world, I wouldn't shy at resorting to the snarl. They are really in a bad place, and I don't think the humans have no faults in it.

Second, the final scene: I don't know if the mitd doing fiesta was there to establish some relief or to send a message, but I would say that surely the reunion of Lirian and Dorukan was there for relief for all the bad things that happened. If Xykon had trapped them in two separate gems I probably would have cryed. Heck, I was going to cry anyway.

[hamishspence]

Sympathetic as in empathise and to some extent sympathise, if not approve, yes.

Question is, how realistic, in the context of OOTS, is the "the scribble strips in SOD are all propaganda and the gods aren't really like that" theory?

I find it more implausible than the "scribble strips are only very slightly slanted in the goblin's favour theory."

[[TS] Shadow]

[QUOTE=King of Nowere;6131532]I want to point out two things.
First, Redcloak. I'm one of those who roots for him, and that's for many reasons, but one of the most important is that he accepted to live with his brother in the small village before Xykon came and spoiled everything.
If not for Xykon, Redcloak would have settled, and I don't see him doing any evilness in that village: he just would not have enough reasons to try to attack the humans.
But Redcloak cannot turn away because Xykon will track him wherever he goes.
And, frankly, if I were a goblin in a D&D based world, I wouldn't shy at resorting to the snarl. They are really in a bad place, and I don't think the humans have no faults in it.QUOTE]

I never said that Redcloak didn't have some pretext for his actions. The goblins were wrongfully treated right from their creation. However, as time goes on Redcloak's goal deteriorated from "helping the goblin race" to "finish this plan so I don't have to admit that I was wrong." While he did agree to settle into the village, he spent many years AFTER that working for Xykon, holding onto his pride, even when Right-Eye had before shown him a way out.

[Moriarty]

Shadow;6131656']

I never said that Redcloak didn't have some pretext for his actions. The goblins were wrongfully treated right from their creation. However, as time goes on Redcloak's goal deteriorated from "helping the goblin race" to "finish this plan so I don't have to admit that I was wrong." While he did agree to settle into the village, he spent many years AFTER that working for Xykon, holding onto his pride, even when Right-Eye had before shown him a way out.

what else could he have done? Xykon depends on RC, so if he tries to run away, Xykon will search for him, so a life in a village or something is impossible.

The "way out" was extremely risky. if right eye had failed trying to kill Xykon, Xykon would have slaughtered his goblin-followers as RC pointed out. we also know that RC was right, the plan couldn't work because Xykon warded himself against the attack

[[TS] Shadow]

what else could he have done? Xykon depends on RC, so if he tries to run away, Xykon will search for him, so a life in a village or something is impossible.

The "way out" was extremely risky. if right eye had failed trying to kill Xykon, Xykon would have slaughtered his goblin-followers as RC pointed out. we also know that RC was right, the plan couldn't work because Xykon warded himself against the attack

On your first point, you're mostly right, but if Redcloak wanted to he could have resisted Xykon. He wasn't Epic level then, and while it would have been challenging I'm sure that Redcloak might have been able to take him. Not likely, but probablity is willing to hide in a corner so drama can take the stage.

On your second point, I was refering to when Right-Eye told Redcloak to give the Crimson Mantle to another goblin.

[NamonakiRei]

I have bought SoD recently and expect to get it this Sunday. However, I've read all spoilers beforehand(I know I shouldn't have, but...), and I can say a few things here.Must.Post.Reply.To.Avoid.Nervous.Breakdown.

I agree in you vision of Xykon. However, your reaction toward Redloak is the most frequent reaction I see after people read SoD.

Okay, Redcloak is not noble. He's sorta weak and all flawed up. His goals have deteriorated through time, and so have his priorities. He can't admit he's wrong. He simply can't, because doing so would emotionally kill him. Because no matter how awful is the reality you bring upon yourself, it must be better than what will come if you break from it. Redcloak is clinging to "foolish hopes" as you called them, but it's about the only thing that keeps him whole.
Maybe a part of him being like he is now is the "finish this plan so I don't have to admit that I was wrong", but it's not all there is to it. He believes on what he's doing. He thinks it is for the best, and he can't really see a way out. After all, what good is there on escaping right now? The best he can do for now is to try and keep on the plan, at least until Xykon is defeated.

And, about Redcloak giving the Crimson Mantle to another goblin... well, that's a good idea... but I bet that when you've given it all up for a plan, then you want to complete it yourself. It just isn't the same... besides, there wasn't any goblin of Redcloak's level, right? And I think we all know Xykon wouldn't wait patiently fot the new goblin to level up. He'd just kill him and tell Redcloak to get back in the plan or have everyone slaughtered, probably...

[Haven]

Shadow;6127278']If I had to give the award of “Most Subtly Developed Character,” it would be Xykon. Most people who only read the online strip would think that Xykon is just a jerk who enjoys bossing people around and killing things…and to be fair they’re right. However, I find that why he acts like that is one of the greatest strokes of genius that the Giant has ever had. Xykon is just an angry kid who is tired of being treated like he’s inferior and wants to stand out in some way, and he chooses to do this be being evil. He really shows how stuck up wizards are in the OotS world as well. Sorcerers are seen as “untalented” and that they only got their magic by pure luck. This sort of thing naturally ticks Xykon off, and that’s something that is relatable to me. He knows what he’s doing is wrong, yet he doesn’t care. While that sounds like stereotypical villain, the way it plays out in SoD make it seem like much more.

I would have to disagree. In my mind, the "oppressed by wizards" thing falls rather flat, as it only came up three times--with "Xavion", with Fyron and with Dorukan--and each time it felt rather incidental to the scene. Would Xykon have turned out differently if Xavier hadn't looked down on him? It really doesn't feel that way; his motives rants aren't "I'm doing this to get back at wizards!" It's "I'm doing this because I'm evil!" It added a nice little bit of depth, sort of a grace note to the rest of his character, but its absence wouldn't have changed anything.

And while his speech at the end was superficially badass, to me it seems like he's rationalizing desperately--if he really felt that way, he wouldn't have been pissed about losing his sense of taste, but rather accepted it and embraced it as a sign he was more badass and more willing to be ruthless to win than anyone else. Though he technically did "rip off his own living flesh", that was worthless to him (he was about ninety and, well..."sixteen years"); he was unwilling to give up anything important, like his mind.

To me, this was all Redcloak's book. The first hint I got of Redcloak's character in the strip proper was "This one's for you, Mom" as he fires the catapults at Azure City, but he deepened like all getout in the prequel, which has me convinced he's going to turn out to be the real Big Bad, because he has a much deeper reason for doing what he does than Xykon, who was ready to go with the first evil plan he heard about (that wasn't introduced by someone with a long name, anyway).

[B. Dandelion]

I, too, like Xykon as I see him as something of an oddball, a shallow personality that is actually written very well and often even subtle in characterization despite only rarely being subtle in character. (The fact that he's a serious contender for Funniest Character in the Whole Damn Strip doesn't hurt either.)

But...


Xykon is just an angry kid who is tired of being treated like he’s inferior and wants to stand out in some way, and he chooses to do this be being evil.

This is not quite how I see it. He does want to be acknowledged but it always hits me as pure entitlement. "Yeah, but I've been thinking: If I have these cool things I can do, doesn't that make me special? Shouldn't other people, like, respect me?" Xavion tells him that respect is earned, and Xykon takes that as his cue to kill him -- "What? I'm earning other people's respect through my action of killing you. That's how it works, right?"

Well, no. Not quite what he was talking about. Respect that you earn is respect people give you for living up to their expectations of what a person should be -- you share and exemplify their values. Xykon thinks he ought to be respected for who he is already, he's special and cool and awesome and can liquefy your internal organs, so respect him or else. He's not trying to "earn" respect but to coerce it and demand that people conform to his values (or lack thereof). He does not get this -- he fundamentally does not get it. One of my favorite exchanges is with the Unholy Master:

UM: You, on the other hand, have all the strategy of a rabid wombat. You just find the enemy and blast away at it with your magic. No subtlety, no skill.
X: Does my method work?
UM: Often, but that's hardly the point.
X: How is whether or not it works not the point?!?

It's just so funny and Xykon's complete frustration is both understandable but also really illustrative of his blind spot. Xykon doesn't care what YOU think is important and so it might as well not exist for all he's concerned. When wizards look down on him and harp on the "unearned" aspect of his magic, they may be snooty and wrong-minded but they're actually hitting on that same theme that is rooted in his entitlement -- and thus a valid criticism that has become a lifelong sore spot. It's not even a universal trait in wizards -- Yydranna wasn't suggested to feel that way. While she did tell Xykon, honestly, that he wasn't good at strategy, she never suggested he hadn't "earned" anything, only that he'd have a hard time getting what he wanted unless he did start thinking ahead.

Xykon is not characterized as someone who's been unfairly looked down on and condescended to, he's had no more of that than is a strictly average human experience. People don't respect you for what you're not good at, and if you don't try to improve yourself they never will. Xykon is characterized as a spoiled bully who feels he's "owed" people's respect if he has to take it from them at gunpoint. His attempts to "prove" himself are about "proving" how his values can beat up yours -- nothing more.

[Lissou]

Shadow;6131869']On your second point, I was refering to when Right-Eye told Redcloak to give the Crimson Mantle to another goblin.

Redcloak still had the phylactery. I can't see Xykon not trying to get that back.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mantle isn't that easy to give up.

[[TS] Shadow]

Redcloak still had the phylactery. I can't see Xykon not trying to get that back.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mantle isn't that easy to give up.

Oh...yeah, I forgot about that.

[King of Nowhere]

I think giving the crimson mantle to another goblin would be a really bad act, and in facct I blame Right-eye for suggestig it.
I mean, Redcloak would put another goblin in his very situation to free himself; that is really selfish, and Redcloak is everything but selfish.
Also, said new goblin won't have the experience for handling the mantle. Redcloak is a skilled and selfless leader, I fail to see a random goblin doing better than him. Despite all his failures, Redcloak managed to do pretty well given the crap he's into.