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Tough_Tonka
2009-05-20, 09:48 PM
I'm trying to build an 11th level Doppelganger Rogue for a DnD game this Saturday. I've never built a 4e Rogue so I thought I'd ask for advice.

His stats are:

Str: 11
Con: 14
Dex: 20
Int: 11
Wis: 11
Chr: 20

And I'm planning on taking the artful dodger build for obvious reasons but I'm not decided on all my feats, powers, and magic Items.

For skills I picked
Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Intimidate, Stealth, Thievery (I think I'll get streetwise if I have any left over feats)

For Powers:

I know I want:

Sly Flourish: Lv 1 At Will
Flamboyant Strike: Lv 3 Encounter (Martial Power)
Ferret out Frailty: LV 6 Utility (Martial Power)

But the rest I'm uncertain about.

Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated so thanks in advance. :)

Mando Knight
2009-05-20, 09:55 PM
Don't pick up any skills through Skill Training if you haven't Multiclassed yet.

Get Backstabber. Those d8s will mean a lot, especially if you're going with the more accurate (but less powerful) daggers.

Artful Dodger focuses on ignoring OAs. You can easily be firing off hordes of shuriken at point-blank, or walk right through a dragon's reach. Look out for any powers that grant your Cha modifier to anything.

Get Weapon Focus: Light Blade. And if PHB II is available to you, Weapon Expertise: Light Blade. The former is good for increasing your damage even more, and the latter makes sure you hit, and is considered the most essential feat in the game.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-20, 10:02 PM
I currently have PHB, PHB2, Martial Powers, Forgotten Realms Players Guide, and Adventures Vault.

The rest of the part consist of a Bard, Wizard, and Warden. The DM mentioned adding an NPC Invoker as well.

Colmarr
2009-05-20, 10:13 PM
As far as I'm concerned, one of the key aspects of playing a successful rogue is making sure your companions know just how crucial combat advantage is to your damage output.

If they're not going out of their way to obtain it for you, they're not playing as a team.

Of course, that's not build advice, that's play advice.

As for build advice, I assume the 20 in Dex and Cha mean you started with 17in each (and added +1 to each at level 4, 8 and 11)? If so, I'd recommend that you start with an 18 (or more if possible) in Dex. Rogues really shine when you combine high damage with good chance to hit.

Drop Charisma a couple of points if you have to. It's not vital (unless you want to be the party face, in which case you should be taking Skill Training: Diplomacy).

Belobog
2009-05-20, 10:29 PM
Have you decided on a Paragon Path yet? Also, what exactly do you have in mind for a concept (sniper, highwayman, mercenary, etc.)?

SadisticFishing
2009-05-20, 10:35 PM
To be honest, Flamboyant Strike is probably not nearly as good as either Nasty Backswing or Low Slash.

I like Nasty Backswing. If you don't have combat advantage, kick them, and when you miss, use it.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-20, 10:36 PM
We're playing in an Eberron campaign. So the character's back story is he's a spy that's been running from old enemies he made during the last war. That's why I wanted to get streetwise for him. I was thinking about taking the infiltrator paragon path since it goes well with the background.

TheEmerged
2009-05-20, 10:50 PM
*cracks knuckles*


And I'm planning on taking the artful dodger build for obvious reasons but I'm not decided on all my feats, powers, and magic Items.

Artful Dodger is a good, fun choice. The rogue in the party I DM for took Brutal Scoundrel, and it is also a good fun choice for anybody else that might be reading these posts for advice.

Attributes are fine. You will want to check with your DM to find out what s/he is going to do about the lack of racial feats for your chosen race.

Feats: you're going to be selecting 6 heroic feats and 1 paragon feat. Let's look down the list of feats you may be looking at.

*Backstabber (PHB): will be adding 3pts of damage, on average, per sneak attack you do at your level.

*Initiative Feats: Quick Draw (PHB) versus Improved Initiative (PHB) versus Martial Alacrity (MP). All three have their charms, but Improved Initiative is probably the best choice. You will want one of them (they are all feat bonuses and do not stack) to take advantage of your First Strike feature.

*Reckless Scramlbe (MP): I've only tested it in test scenarios (remember, the rogue in the party I DM is Brutal Scoundrel), but I've never seen a situation where it would have been that large of a deal.

*Slaying Action (MP): TAKE THIS. You'll be doing this once every other encounter (more or less).

*Skill Focus (PHB): depends on your DM. A lot of DM's will note that you have the feat and promptly increase the difficulty of all locks/traps/etc by three.

*Skill Training (PHB): do NOT take this feat until you have taken a multiclass feat.

*"Surprise Round" feats from MP -- not a great choice. Surprise rounds don't seem to happen often for these feats to be worth it.

*Speedy Response (MP) -- as an Artful Dodger, your big schtick is not being hit by opportunity attacks so this doesn't add up.

*Nimble Blade (PHB): take this as soon as you can spare the feat -- first or second level, ideally.

*Press the Advantage (PHB): you qualify, but should only take it if you have nothing else pressing to take. You won't be critically hitting as often in 4.0 as you were in 3.x, in my experience.

I'll have to come back to this post later.

Colmarr
2009-05-20, 10:53 PM
*Nimble Blade (PHB): take this as soon as you can spare the feat -- first or second level, ideally.

The OP has access to PHB2, so Weapon Expertise is a better feat in every way than Nimble Blade.

Arbitrarity
2009-05-20, 11:05 PM
I'm trying to build an 11th level Doppelganger Rogue for a DnD game this Saturday. I've never built a 4e Rogue so I thought I'd ask for advice.

His stats are:

Str: 11
Con: 14
Dex: 20
Int: 11
Wis: 11
Chr: 20

And I'm planning on taking the artful dodger build for obvious reasons but I'm not decided on all my feats, powers, and magic Items.

For skills I picked
Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Intimidate, Stealth, Thievery (I think I'll get streetwise if I have any left over feats)

For Powers:

I know I want:

Sly Flourish: Lv 1 At Will
Flamboyant Strike: Lv 3 Encounter (Martial Power)
Ferret out Frailty: LV 6 Utility (Martial Power)

But the rest I'm uncertain about.

Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated so thanks in advance. :)

As an artful dodger, you should definitely go daggermaster.
At wills should be Piercing Strike and Sly Flourish.
I recommend Positioning Strike, Low Slash or Nasty Backswing (minor and free actions, extra attacks are great), From the Shadows (dash in, hit, dash out, with often free CA, and hide), and daggermaster power is non-negotiable.

Daily, I recommend Blinding Barrage (awesomeness), Driving Assault (2 attacks, with your crit range and damage, is a nice bonus), and KNOCKOUT. Always knockout. Knockout is the best thing ever. Especially with Bloodiron weapons and, eventually, Assassin's point. Get it, and never look back :D.

Utility, I think fleeting ghost is OK if you haven't got secret stride yet. Otherwise, sneak in the attack and tumble look decent.
Chameleon is always nice, Ferret out Frailty... shouldn't be necessary, with a good party. I like threatening glare, it synergises well with artful dodger. Ignoble escape is also a great choice.
Excecutioner's Mein, Gap in the Armor, and Combat Tumbleset are all fun, as is Shadow Stride.

Grab Nimble Blade, Backstabber, and Weapon Expertise. The +1 to hit, +3 from CA, and 3d8 SA make you deadly accurate, and highly damaging. Slaying Action does look pretty nice, Rogue Weapon Mastery is a decent choice (+2[w] on your 18-20 threat range, even if it's only d4s)

tcrudisi
2009-05-20, 11:27 PM
Artful Dodger build

Sly Flourish: Lv 1 At Will
Flamboyant Strike: Lv 3 Encounter (Martial Power)
Ferret out Frailty: LV 6 Utility (Martial Power)

Other powers:
Level 1 At-Will: Piercing Strike. It attacks Reflex. This is huge.
Level 1 Encounter: Positioning Strike. Attacks Will and allows you to move the enemy.
Level 1 Daily: Trick Strike. Move him around so you can ensure combat advantage for all.
Level 2: Sneak in the Attack. Show your allies how cool being a Rogue is.
Level 5: Driving Assault. Two attacks (twice the chance to hit!), plus a neat effect.
Level 7: Circling Predator. Two attacks, plus C.A. next turn? Sweetness.
Level 9: Knockout. You knock them unconscious. This means you can coup de grace his butt. If you take no other suggestion of mine, take this one.
Level 10: Combat Tumbleset. Shift your speed.

Feats suggested:
Backstabber (d8's for sneak attack damage? Yes, please)
Slaying Action (Sneak Attack twice a round? Sweetness. This becomes even better if your DM runs you through several encounters without an extended rest).
Melee Training (Dexterity): Just so you can make basic attacks (OA's, charge attacks, etc.)
Weapon Expertise (Light Blade): The extra chance to hit is nice.
Improved Init: As someone above said, you need one of those feats. This, in my opinion, is the best of them.
Weapon Proficiency (Double Sword): Okay, this is cheese. Really, it's cheese. It counts as a light blade and a heavy blade, so it opens up a lot of features. Plus, it increases your weapon damage to a d8 instead of a d4.
Danger Sense: Roll twice for initiative? Heck yeah! Acting first is important for any self-respecting rogue.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-21, 12:23 AM
For items the DM told me I get one 12 lv, 11 lv and 10 magic item and 5000 gp.

Two Items I've been considering are the Cloak of the Mountebank AV pg. 149 and Bracers of Infinite Blades AV pg 115.

I haven't been able to decide on a good magic weapon though.

Mystic Muse
2009-05-21, 02:26 AM
Vicious weapons in PHB can be pretty nasty last time I checked.

tcrudisi
2009-05-21, 02:30 AM
For items the DM told me I get one 12 lv, 11 lv and 10 magic item and 5000 gp.

Two Items I've been considering are the Cloak of the Mountebank AV pg. 149 and Bracers of Infinite Blades AV pg 115.

I haven't been able to decide on a good magic weapon though.

Hmm.... He's giving you the basic starting gear for a non-level 1 character: a level +1, a level, and a level -1 magical item, plus gold equal to a level -1 item.

Here's what I would pick:
Feytouched Leather Armor +3 (+3 to Init and the ability to become invisible once an encounter? Awesome)
Dynamic Dagger +3 (This is to save money. Since I chose a feat that allows me to use a Double Sword, I'd use this. It allows me to switch it back and forth: Double Sword for melee and into a Dagger to be thrown.)
Cape of the Mountebank +2 (I can't disagree with you here. It's nice)
Iron Armbands of Power (A static +2 item bonus to melee damage rolls? A rogues job is to do damage. This helps.)
Stag Helm (Probably my weakest choice. I like the +2 to passive Perception. The ability to draw my weapon as a minor action during a round which I'm surprised is just icing on the cake.)
Luckbender Gloves (Ability to reroll a 1 on that damage roll once an encounter as a free action? Yes, please.)
Eternal Chalk (Okay, I only had a few gold left over, but by god, no Rogue should ever be without this. Use it to mark traps so you don't fall for them a second time and it just has a lot of general uses.)

Nukewaste
2009-05-21, 02:43 AM
Backstabber? Really? So many people say that?

Show of hands, who here who said backstabber have actually played 4e rogues?

You're on the right track, I guess, and down the line, sure if you have a feat to spare, take backstabber, but the first one you should take is Distant Advantage, from PHB2.

You're not a tank. Much better to let some other people (especially that Warden) do the flanking, and let you just sly flourish sneak attack from a safe spot.

The bard in your party might get stuck doing it, and he won't appreciate it, but you're a rogue; he'll understand. If not, steal his lute. That'll learn him!

As you're building to level 11, not too big a deal, but starting from level one, Distant Advantage is the best thing you can do. Backstabber can wait.

Combat Advantage as often as you can get it is the key to success.

Then pick attacks that let you slide enemies, and/or let you shift, and you should be able to keep yourself out of trouble, and your enemies in your crosshairs.

Deft Strike is a good at-will for stealthy attacks, also. Be hiding out of sight, move 2 spaces, attack with CA, use move action to get back behind cover. Hide. Repeat as needed.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-05-21, 03:12 AM
For items the DM told me I get one 12 lv, 11 lv and 10 magic item and 5000 gp.

Two Items I've been considering are the Cloak of the Mountebank AV pg. 149 and Bracers of Infinite Blades AV pg 115.

I haven't been able to decide on a good magic weapon though.

I could never figure out the purpose for the bracers of infinate blades. The idea is cool, but in 4e all magic throwing weapons return automatically, so you could just have a magic dagger instead of the bracers, and keep throwing it.

In my experience, a rogue wants to either dual wield a rapier and dagger or go with a double sword.

Rapier 'n' Dagger
Pro: you can throw the dagger, you get an extra point of accuracy from the dagger
Con: dagger damage is really bad, both of your hands are full

Double sword
Pro: extra point of AC, d8 damage, counts as heavy blade and light blade
Con: cheesy, looks stupid, occupies both hands

I'd personally advocate the rapier 'n' dagger aproach. The idea is to use the increased dagger for throwing attacks and attacks with significant control features that outweigh the damage (knockout, positioning strike, etc), where hitting at all is more important than the actual damage dealt. The rapier is for attacks with multiple [w]'s where the damage is the important part, or where you would already hit on 2's without the extra +1 from the dagger (after a bunch of buffs from a warlord, for example).

The two most obvious choices for your weapons would be bloodclaw or reckless, but a lot of people have started looking down on those two since they are in many ways flat-out better than other choices, in terms of raw damage output. My personal favorite for rogue weapons (other than the aforementioned two) would have to be the jagged weapon, which is great because it increases your critical hit range to 19-20 well before epic tier. Even critting with an at-will power at this level can do serious damage, since it maximizes all those delicious d8s you get to roll as a rogue (assuming you took the backstabber feat). Conveniently, the jagged weapon is level 12, so there ya go.

In terms of non-weapon items, the iron armbands of power are great. Any items that up your stealth are good too. The boots of the fencing master are great for almost any type of character, and can be thematically appropriate for rogues, since they tend to be one of the few character types who uses rapiers.

For power selection, I'd make sure I took piercing strike and sly flourish as my at-wills, and knockout as my level 9 daily. Piercing strike will be your melee at-will, and sly flourish you can use on a ranged attack when you throw your dagger, or as a melee attack if the enemy's reflex is only like 1 worse than its AC.

Knockout is both really cool and really good. You can do very nasty things like knockout --> action point --> sneak attack coup de grace, all in the first round of a combat. Additionally, knockout doesn't have a size limit for enemies like some powers do; nothing says "cool" like punching out a dragon!

tcrudisi
2009-05-21, 03:28 AM
Backstabber? Really? So many people say that?

You're on the right track, I guess, and down the line, sure if you have a feat to spare, take backstabber, but the first one you should take is Distant Advantage, from PHB2.

The bard in your party might get stuck doing it, and he won't appreciate it, but you're a rogue; he'll understand. If not, steal his lute. That'll learn him!

As you're building to level 11, not too big a deal, but starting from level one, Distant Advantage is the best thing you can do. Backstabber can wait.

Combat Advantage as often as you can get it is the key to success.

Backstabber is, on average, slightly better than +3 damage per sneak attack. Distant Advantage is really a sub-optimal feat selection with his party. Invoker and Wizard are 100% ranged classes. The Bard has a 33% chance (at best) of being melee. Which means Distant Advantage will not work when there is only one melee at the front-line: the Warden. If the Rogue wants C.A. with this party, he'll have to do it himself. Having the ability to throw daggers is still nice, but with that party make-up I wouldn't even consider Distant Advantage.

I've played a Bard all the way up the Heroic levels, and I am consistently the biggest "team-player" in all of my gaming groups. But if the Rogue looked at me and said, "you'll have to flank all the enemies so that I can throw daggers all day long," I would laugh at him and tell him to find a new healer. Artful Dodgers have a much better AC than Bards. His role should be befriending the Warden. Trust on your Defender to defend, just as your party should trust your Rogue to do steady, consistently high damage throughout every encounter.

However, were his party make-up different and the OP wanted to be a ranged character, I would agree with your post completely. Unfortunately, his party make-up does not give him that luxury. Also, I never read anywhere that he specifically wanted to be a ranged character, so with Rogues I assume that means "melee mostly, ranged when necessary." (But that's an assumption, and we all know that makes an @ss out of you and umption, whoever that is. hehe)

HMS Invincible
2009-05-21, 03:46 AM
Do any of you bother getting combat advantage through the bluff and stealth skill checks in the middle of encounters? Or are they not worth the actions that you spent?

Hal
2009-05-21, 06:39 AM
I've had good dealings using Two-Fisted Shooter, which lets you carry a hand-crossbow in your off-hand and reload it as a free action. This gives a lot of versatility if you take powers that can be used with melee or ranged weapons.

Of course, magic thrown weapons return after the attack, so an enchanted dagger works for this as well. It just depends on what you want to do with it.

NecroRebel
2009-05-21, 10:25 AM
Do any of you bother getting combat advantage through the bluff and stealth skill checks in the middle of encounters? Or are they not worth the actions that you spent?

I've tried it with stealth. The problem is hiding while you're being observed; you really need means to become invisible that doesn't end when you attack. However, if you have such a means, you can essentially extend the duration via stealth.

Essentially, you want to go invisible, attack, then move and hide. This way, you get essentially an extra round of invisibility (the one or two from the power, and one from hiding). There are also some powers, I'm thinking specifically of the level 7 encounter from Martial Power From the Shadows though I know that there are others that I'm simply not thinking of, that allow you to hide at the end of an attack.

Bluff checks are, unfortunately, standard actions to use to hide or feint and are thus not very useful. I do belive there's a paragon path that reduces this to a minor, but still, it's really only worthwhile as a finisher once most of the enemies are dropped and you don't have any other means of gaining CA.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-21, 11:01 AM
I could never figure out the purpose for the bracers of infinate blades. The idea is cool, but in 4e all magic throwing weapons return automatically, so you could just have a magic dagger instead of the bracers, and keep throwing it.


I thought they were for attacks like Rain of Steel and Blinding Barrage that allowed you to attack multiple targets with one attack. I thought magic throwing weapons only come back after the attack ends but I could be wrong.

Artanis
2009-05-21, 11:22 AM
PHB 270 and 271 both say that you need one thrown weapon or piece of ammo per target. So yeah, you'd want the bracers for AoE attacks.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-21, 12:07 PM
So far I think I'm gonna go with the following feats:

Heroic

Backstabber
Weapon Expertise
Slaying Action
Melee Training (Dex) For the opportunity attacks
Pact Initiate (Streetwise Skill and Eyebite power)
Quick Draw

Paragon
Danger Sense

Tengu_temp
2009-05-21, 12:16 PM
The OP has access to PHB2, so Weapon Expertise is a better feat in every way than Nimble Blade.

Of course, their bonuses stack, so after taking WE he can take NB.

Tough_Tonka
2009-05-21, 01:17 PM
Hmm.... He's giving you the basic starting gear for a non-level 1 character: a level +1, a level, and a level -1 magical item, plus gold equal to a level -1 item.

Feytouched Leather Armor +3 (+3 to Init and the ability to become invisible once an encounter? Awesome)
[

What book is this in?

tcrudisi
2009-05-21, 01:25 PM
What book is this in?

I created everything via the character builder without even considering that some magic items might come from a book you did not have. Feytouched is from Manual of the Planes.

*edit* It dawned on me that printing exactly how that armor works may not be such a smart thing to do, so I removed it.

Shadow_Elf
2009-05-21, 03:47 PM
Maybe someone already mentioned this but:

1. Multiclass Warlock (Fey)
2. Use Eyebite to provoke an OA, which misses and triggers the Warden's Mark. Action Point for Sneak Attack

This gives Rogues something good to do with their AP. Unfortunately, it gives you the rather useless skill training (Arcana), so it may be somewhat suboptimal.

EDIT: Also, Psychic Lock + Mindiron Crossbow + Rattling Exploits = Profit.

TheEmerged
2009-05-21, 04:22 PM
Of course, their bonuses stack, so after taking WE he can take NB.

This. I got interrupted by reality in the middle of my post so didn't get through all the feats I was going to discuss. Weapon Expertise is the OTHER feat you should take as either your 1st or 2nd level feat.

RE: Backstabber. Hmm, I see I could have been clearer here. Let me try this again. It adds +3 damage per sneak attack on average at the paragon level. I should have added that this means it isn't as impressive as some people make it sound, but nor is it to be dismissed. I'd rank it behind Weapon Expertise, Nimble Blade, Slaying Action, the multiclass feat of your preference, AND the initiative feat of your preference -- meaning 10th level feat if nothing else appeals to you.


Do any of you bother getting combat advantage through the bluff and stealth skill checks in the middle of encounters? Or are they not worth the actions that you spent?

The rogue in our party hasn't needed to do this yet -- he gets combat advantage from simple flanking most of the time, or from powers used by other party members.

Nukewaste
2009-05-21, 04:52 PM
... Invoker and Wizard are 100% ranged classes. The Bard has a 33% chance (at best) of being melee. Which means Distant Advantage will not work when there is only one melee at the front-line: the Warden. If the Rogue wants C.A. with this party, he'll have to do it himself.
... However, were his party make-up different and the OP wanted to be a ranged character, I would agree with your post completely. Unfortunately, his party make-up does not give him that luxury. ...

On paper, okay, you're right, but think about pretty much every battle you've been in. In the ebb and flow of combat, with your allies and your enemies constantly shifting and moving, it's going to happen that someone will end up with flanking opportunities.

There will be many times where this party's wizard and invoker will find an enemy has gotten past the warden, and gotten between the two of them.

It's in everyone's best interest to kill that enemy as quickly as possible, before he takes the softies out of the fight.

The rogue is on the other side of the room, and even if he could get close enough, one of the casters would have to move, for the rogue to get into flanking position.

Or, with distant advantage, he already is, so applies 2d6 (8 with backstabber) extra damage. It's saved my party much trouble on many occasions. It's almost more important to have Distant Advantage when you don't have good flankers. It becomes more crucial to apply as much damage as possible to those endangering your squishy members.

Only a few times have I actually recommended someone move to a certain place, so on my upcoming turn, I can sneak attack them. I guess this guy wouldn't always want to boss his bard around (though, to be fair, you bards do kinda ask for it...)

Most of the time, it just happens with all the chaos of the fight, that a flank occurs. It will happen to this party, just like every other party.

And you'll be happy to have distant advantage, when it does.