A discrepancy in the seriousness of my players

[Vagnarok]

As my thread's title implies, I have a minor problem:
I DM for a group of 4 players, all of which are my best friends, and one of which is my wife. My guy buddies have played DnD in the past, are comfortable with the rules, and are really getting into my plot. My wife wanted to try DnD, and got really into making her first character (she even wrote a detailed back story, much to my surprise and delight). However, we have played up to level 5 (on a greatly accelerated xp scale), and during our sessions she frequently doodles on her character sheet, gets very tired, and doesn't contribute much to group discussions or decisions.
I have talked to her about this on several occasions, and each time she says that she wants to keep playing, but she wants to be more casual about it. She doesn't want it to matter if she skips a session. This is problematic for the group, as one of them (or I) has to play her character, and then we have to fill her in on what she missed. This combined with her general lack of interest is very troubling to me.

I want to make my campaign as engaging and immersive as possible for my players. If she wasn't my wife I'd boot her, but not only that, she's the skill monkey, and without her my players wouldn't be able to escape from a cage with a dc 10 lock on it. :/

What should I do?

[gibbo88]

I have something like this in one of my campaigns. My mate's girlfriend/my ex plays with us, and tends to space out, do other things on her computer that could really be done at another time, and generally slows down play because we have to re-explain things to her each round of combat. She then makes us speed up the game if it gets to the point where she wants to go home.

Anyway, best suggestion I can come up with is that you try and get the other players to meet in the middle someplace. Let her be a casual player, and just use the rogue basically as a point and use with nothing too complicated. Maybe have a friend with a relatively simple character use it to either a) sneak attack, b) scout or c) skill checks. Nothing complicated in combat.

[Myatar_Panwar]

To me, it sounds like she just doesn't want to play. She may have just been being nice when she said that she just wants to be casual about it.

[Random NPC]

As my thread's title implies, I have a minor problem:
I DM for a group of 4 players, all of which are my best friends, and one of which is my wife. My guy buddies have played DnD in the past, are comfortable with the rules, and are really getting into my plot. My wife wanted to try DnD, and got really into making her first character (she even wrote a detailed back story, much to my surprise and delight). However, we have played up to level 5 (on a greatly accelerated xp scale), and during our sessions she frequently doodles on her character sheet, gets very tired, and doesn't contribute much to group discussions or decisions.
I have talked to her about this on several occasions, and each time she says that she wants to keep playing, but she wants to be more casual about it. She doesn't want it to matter if she skips a session. This is problematic for the group, as one of them (or I) has to play her character, and then we have to fill her in on what she missed. This combined with her general lack of interest is very troubling to me.

I want to make my campaign as engaging and immersive as possible for my players. If she wasn't my wife I'd boot her, but not only that, she's the skill monkey, and without her my players wouldn't be able to escape from a cage with a dc 10 lock on it. :/

What should I do?

get a divorce :biggrin:

now, seriously, talk to her. Is she bored? What could you guys do to make her not bored? Maybe she doesn't like the whole strategic part of the game. Find a middle ground on her expectations so she can have fun too!

It's all about trying to get to the point where everyone can have fun equally.

[Ravens_cry]

Or maybe she is a newbie (in the sense of being new at something) who is intimidated by other players. I know I felt that way when I was first starting out. Getting into the groove of thinking 'in-game' can be a challenge.

[The_Werebear]

Not an easy issue to solve by any means. Thing is, she is probably going to want to play casually no matter what you do to make things more interesting for her in particular. There's nothing wrong with different levels of focus, and you might just have to accept that she's going to be a less committed player in the group. What I would do is give her an in character excuse to disappear from time to time, and then mod the adventure to have alternate ways around traps for when she isn't around.

[shadzar]

Sometimes you have to take the hard route. Either tell the offending player to get with the program or get out of the game no more how close you are to them.

If you don't do it early, it will only cause problems down the road for everyone.

[TSED]

Yeah, I have to say... Explain to her where you're coming from.

You've got your pals around who are really into the game as-is. It's great that she tried it and liked it, but she simply isn't keeping up.

Here's what I'd do (I'd outline the plan to her before you did any steps) :

Step 1) Set up another D&D game, same time or whatever, way more casual.
Step 2) Start phasing her out of your 'hardcore' game (for lack of better word). DMPC her character if you have to.
Step 3) Now she has her casual game, your pals have their not-casual game, and bam. Every one's happy?




EDIT:: I can't believe I said "same time or whatever." I meant "another time." I do not know how those words got there. Disregard them, and I am only leaving them there for clarity. What I meant is another game that is way more casual (once every 2, 3, whatever? weeks). Ask her what she thinks would be a good basis, even.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Alternative Option: Let her play NPCs.

In all honesty, it sounds like she doesn't want to play. She's being a drag on the group, but you (naturally) want to keep her involved. Well, if she had fun making up a backstory then she's probably more interested in the "roleplay" than the "roll play" part of the game; regardless of what the balance is in your game, for some people rolling dice and solving puzzles is just deathly boring.

First, let her become more casual. NPC her PC when she doesn't want to play - you can do it, trust me. If you have trouble with that, hand her over to another PC to run. If you never bug her about playing, she'll probably drop the character entirely.

Once she's missed several sessions in a row, ask her if, instead of being a PC, she'd like to play an "important" NPC. Design the PC to be part of a significant encounter that, regardless of outcome, does not affect the greater plot. So, the Guildmaster of a local Thieves' Guild that one of the PCs is trying to join would be OK - the Quest Giver, not so much. Give her some general notes about what the NPC knows and, only if she asks, details about the NPCs features or personality.

An Example
Henrich Silverpockets (Guildmaster of the Three Picks Thieves' Guild)
Background: Henrich is human male and in his late 40's. He has been running the Guild for 10 years and is comfortable with his current position. The Three Picks Guild is a "gentlemen rogue" Guild which trains its members to be thieves and encourages them to aim for daring thievery attempts. Potential members are sent to him for a once-over after they've been vetted by his underlings; if he thinks the applicant is worth a shot, he will pass them over to Vichy No-Step, his buxom 20-something "secretary" who hands out assignments for novices and lower-ranked members.

Knowledge: You know that a big-shot "rogue" from out of town has been sniffing around, trying to join. No one's quite sure why, but you suspect it is to get information about Blackstone Manor - the heavily defended home of a reclusive wizard. Nobody is supposed to know that the Three Picks Guild knows of a secret path through the outer defenses, but it is possible the big-shot learned of it.

Also on your mind is the Heart of the Ocean, a massive pearl that was recently obtained by Cassius Filgerine - a wealthy, but paranoid, merchant that built his Headquarters like a small keep in the middle of town. The pearl itself would be nice, but mostly you'd like to get it to tick off Char Redblade (F, 30), the Guildmaster of a rival thieves' guild (The Black Hand). Cassius is paying her protection money to ensure that nobody steals from him; a good deal since Char is known for her violent temper and her habit of brutally killing anyone that crosses her.

You haven't tried for the Heart yet because the Filgerine Headquarters is difficult to enter and even if your thief was successful, Char would kill him eventually. But, if this big-shot is all he says he is, he may not only be able to get the Heart for you, but maybe also take out Char in the process.

EXPLANATION
In this scenario, the PCs are in town on their way to another quest. They came to town to meet up with a contact of their ultimate employer who has some information on the MacGuffin they're looking for. He is willing to part with the information for a princely (but payable) sum of gold - or for a particular book from Blackstone Manor.

Your PCs have started looking for ways to get into Blackstone Manor and a rumor says that the Three Picks Guild knows of a secret entrance into the Blackstone Vault - a rumored treasure trove. The PCs know that the Wizard of Blackstone is away, and they would like to get a crack at that Vault, but the defenses of Blackstone are challenging (but doable) when approached head on.

Getting the Book is a side-quest with multiple ways to solve it - but Henrich Silverpockets is an important first contact and a potential reoccurring contact. And the description of Henrich is enough to give your wife as a skeleton character she can embellish.
If she says yes (she probably will - even if it's only for one time) then give her some prep time to think about the character and add any details she finds interesting. Then, when it's time for the character to appear, say "You enter the room and see..." and gesture to your wife. She will likely start describing the room unconsciously and then get to the character itself. By that point, she should be in-voice and having a jolly old time roleplaying.

After she's done, you can invite her to stay at the table, or to do something else - you'll call her if you need her to play her NPC again.

At the end of the session, ask her if she had a good time. If she gives an honest yes, mention that you liked having someone else bring a NPC to life and that, if she likes, she can do it again when her NPC shows up. If she's very enthusiastic, ask her to further detail a "support" NPC - someone her NPC interacted with while she was roleplaying, or someone mentioned in the original notes.

However, if she seems hesitant about giving an answer you may just have to accept that some people just don't care for RPGs. Whatever happens, don't pressure her to join in - let her come and go as she pleases.

[john_pullinger]

I've had a similar situation, Vagnarok. My wife took up D&D to try it out and join in with me. I'd only just started playing myself, along with my brother, and after a while we got a few friends online into it too and used GameTable to have a session once a week.

She enjoyed it to begin with, but gradually lost enthusiasm. Part of the problem was that she didn't read the player's handbook, so didn't know how to play in certain circumstances, and led to her feeling sub-par and out of place. We'd explain things when she needed it, of course, but despite a few hints she didn't look over the skills section of the book, or review the combat section. I'm all for learning by doing, but reading through a few pages here really would have helped her.

So in the end, she just stopped playing, and feels a little uneasy with me continuing to play (though she has allowed me a Wednesday evening to play online with a couple of friends, while she watches The Apprentice *Twitches*).

I'm not sure what to suggest, but know that you are not alone.

-John

[valadil]

Let her play but not as a main character. She's not going to be the star of the show or have her own plot unless she's willing to put the time into it, but that doesn't mean she can't participate.

[Ditto]

Oracle Hunter, your solution is genius. That's exactly what you want.

My girlfriend picked up the Serenity RPG and designed a ship and we've conned all our friends into playing sometime in the nearsoon, so we'll see how a bunch of storyteller folks do without any RPG experience. Should be fun!

[Devils_Advocate]

Doesn't this woman realize that Dungeons & Dragons is SERIOUS BUSINESS?! Obviously she fails to understand the level of attention and dedication needed for a group of friends to pretend to be elves and dwarves who kill orcs.

Seriously, though, unless her desire to treat the game as a fun, non-demanding recreational activity -- Imagine that! -- is really detracting from the other players' experience, it's not a problem. But if your group has trouble coping with a player who doesn't take the game seriously... well, first of all, yikes. But anyway, if that's the case, you might just have to consider whether or not she's adding more to the group than she's taking away.

I like Oracle_Hunter's idea. Maybe stuff that's disruptive or bothersome when she's playing a main protagonist wouldn't be a problem if she were filling different roles.


"I never realized that having fun was so much work."
"Oh, heck yes! Why, when you're really serious about having fun, it's hardly any fun at all!"

[shadzar]

^^Not everyone play's D&D as a reason to get together and have beer and pretzels. Some actually play it to play the game. :smalleek:

So any player that is disrupting the rest of the group is problematic even if that style of play would be accepted at another game.

It becomes a question of is this a distraction, or worse; a ploy for attention?

Either way the best thing to always do in the event of a disruptive player is to talk to that player outside of the game on a non-game day and discuss where styles are clashing that may be causing problems.

[elonin]

I love the suggestion about having her play npc's. That would give her a wide variety of classes to find what she's really into. A couple of years ago when I played in a live action roleplaying game NPC'ing was a great lead in to learn what my intrests were.

Also, skill monkeys are better left for more experienced players. I'd suggest for her to play a cleric since they give a view into combat and some casting and are very durable.

[tcrudisi]

My wife currently plays D&D with me one day a week, sometimes two. I have noticed that most women get into rpg's because a boyfriend got them into it. Some enjoy it enough to keep going, even when said boyfriend is no longer a boyfriend.

Here's what I believe it is, based on previous experience: She just wants to get involved in your life. She saw that there was a day of the week where you got together with friends and had fun. She wanted in, so she could share that with you. Obviously, she invested a lot in the beginning because she was wanting to work to make it happen.

My advice? If she's not having fun in D&D, pick another day where you two can do something. Actually, one thing I've found is a board game night. Invite those same D&D friends over (with their wives for more fun!) and just play board games for a few hours. Just, make sure there's a rule in place where no one talks about D&D, so the women do not get bored.

[woodenbandman]

^That's a good idea. Also:

At what points does your wife get bored? If it's during combat, then you know she doesn't like combat. If it's all the time, that's a more serious problem. Ask her or try to guess what she hopes to get out of the game and try to include that. Also get the other players to compliment her when she does well. Women like compliments :smallbiggrin:.

[Gorbash]

In my gaming group, there's an even worse and similar problem...

DM's girlfriend is playing with us, of course, he got her in and didn't even consult with others about it, but that's the least of the problems...
She has no idea how the game is played, aside that Cone of Cold lets her throw a lot of dice (she's a Sorcerer of course), she's always pissed when fails to contribute and then the DM allows her stuff which he shouldn't (last session she failed to overcome SR of some demon, he let her reroll etc), RP is non-existant (I have no clue what's the name of her character), she's the biggest reason why we have to skip sessions (since it's DM's rule not to play unless everyone's present) since she always has something better to do, and when she's present she just plays games on her cell until it's her turn...

And the worst part is... The DM doesn't even think her approach is bad. None of us can say anything about it, since of course he'll be overprotective and irrational, so we're stuck with playing with a horrible player.

So, with that being said, I know how your players feel and I know it must be very annoying for them. And you should definitely tell her that if she doesn't want to play then she shouldn't.

[Vagnarok]

Thanks for the responses guys, there has been some really great advice posted. Based on my current situation, I think that I'll talk to her about how much time she wants to invest in reading the PH a little. That might allow her to be more involved instead of learning by doing. Also, you're right. She DID start playing in order to spend more time with me. I need to consider either how to make DnD enjoyable for her or how to create another block of time for us.

I'll check with her about the role playing vs roll playing discrepancy. I think that might clear things up.

Also, that I have her play an NPC is a great idea, but I'm not sure that it would apply to my situation. If I ever have a similar problem, however, I'll be sure to use that great solution.

Thanks again!

[shadow_archmagi]

Suggestion: Movie night!

[shadzar]

I have never seen a disruptive player become a good NPC player.

If you can't get them to play their own character respectfully, then how do you plan to get them to play an NPC that you need to perform certain function respectfully?

[Satyr]

Disclaimer: I normally have little patience for so-called "casual players", because I never had found that tolerating lazy people who are unable or unwilling to contribute to the game and spent the necessary time, effort and dedication to the game, its rules and its setting usually leads to more problems than it solves; for me, so-called casual games are nothing but a waste of potential, and that is normally very frustrating. so my advice in a situation like this is going to be slightly biased.


I don't think that telling your girlfriend will help much with the situation; in most cases this will only lead to an argument and she will probably leave the group which may be a solution but it is certainly not the best one.
The best way to handle the situation is through an example. Make a session, where nobody talks out of character but for the most elementary needs, which cannot be expressed through the character. The GM should revel in excellence, neither players nor the GM himself should allow anything to distract them and statute an example of how this game should be played: fully concentrated, highly dedicated and without interruptions. Yes, this is a cumbersome and exhausting way to play the game, but if you cannot offer a pristine example of the potential that is wasted and neglected through "casual gaming" (I prefer the terms "incompetent" or just "bad" gaming for this, because they are a much more accurate description of this self-proclaimed "style"), how should you convince your girlfriend that the effort is worth it?

[shadzar]

Disclaimer: I normally have little patience for so-called "casual players", because I never had found that tolerating lazy people who are unable or unwilling to contribute to the game and spent the necessary time, effort and dedication to the game, its rules and its setting usually leads to more problems than it solves; for me, so-called casual games are nothing but a waste of potential, and that is normally very frustrating. so my advice in a situation like this is going to be slightly biased.

If it wasn't for the whole banning paintball as illegal thing, I think I would move to Germany.

[Another_Poet]

Since it's a combination of "different play style" and "wants to spend more time with hubby" I second what someone else said above, offer to run a separate campaign for her and her girlfriends. It'll be more casual (both in tone, attendance expectation and "rules lite" - hence less work for you to GM).

If she says no to that then have a weekly date night for the two of you.

ap

[kieza]

Let her play a planetouched character who is regularly the subject of Summon Planar Ally cast by other adventuring parties. You now have an excuse for her character to vanish and a handy character to drop into another campaign if an extra player shows up.

[Satyr]

If it wasn't for the whole banning paintball as illegal thing, I think I would move to Germany.

That's not an issue anymore. Someone remembered that populism loses its effect when it becomes so obvious. But this summer, a kind of larp for children was prohibitted, because it seemed too violent for the local authorities. Hillarity ensued.