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View Full Version : Convincing people of the truth of your words (3.5)



msully4321
2009-05-21, 02:33 PM
Lying to NPCs is nicely modeled by opposed Bluff and Sense Motive checks, but (as far as I know) there isn't a good way to model trying to convince an you are telling the truth when you are.

I'm curious what people have to suggest about this.

Thoughts I have:

It should probably be more along the lines of "convince people that you *think* you are telling the truth"
It should maybe be easier to convince someone with a good Sense Motive
Perhaps the relevant skill should be *either* Bluff or Diplomacy (I'm using Rich's modified Diplomacy rules)

shadzar
2009-05-21, 02:39 PM
:smallconfused: I guess you need evidence, or the bluff check.

That, or more naive NPCs.

Frosty
2009-05-21, 02:42 PM
So...if the NPC has reason to suspect the PC's truthfulness, have him roll a Sense Motive check against a DC10 with modifiers based on the situation. If he fails, he thinks the PCs are lying. At that point it's either a level check or a diplomacy check (use whichever is higher) to convince the NPC otherwise using Rich's diplomacy rules.

ocato
2009-05-21, 02:43 PM
I use diplomacy for when I'm telling the truth and they don't trust me enough to believe me. Makes sense to me.

Telonius
2009-05-21, 02:54 PM
Two separate issues... Sense Motive, opposed (or not) by Bluff, to determine whether or not the NPC thinks you're being honest with them. Opposed Diplomacy to determine whether or not you convince the NPC that you're right, with the Initial Relationship bumped one to the "Nemesis" end of the chart if he thinks you're not being honest. He might still buy that particular rationale, but thinks you're hiding something important. (Think of it like a used car salesman telling you the car has a certain bluebook value. That might be correct, but you notice that he didn't say anything about this particular car, just the model in general... )

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-21, 03:08 PM
I'd say it's a new use of the diplomacy skill. Maybe something like this:

Gain Trust: The DC of this diplomacy check is DC 20. On a success, the NPC becomes willing to trust you, and concedes that you are probably telling the truth.

Special Modifiers:

You've been caught lying to the NPC in the past: -4
NPC is hostile toward you: -4
NPC has negative Wisdom modifier: -2
NPC would be greatly inconvenienced by information you present: -2
Evidence or character witness seemingly contradicts your evidence: -2
You have no proof to back up your claims: -2
NPC is Friendly toward you: +2
NPC has 5 or more ranks in sense motive: +2
NPC would consider your information good news: +2
Character witness or circumstantial evidence backs your claims: +2
Solid proof backs your claims: +4

Special: Anyone whose disposition is helpful or better automatically believes you are telling the truth.

Example: You are trying to convince the Lord that an earth quake is going to destroy his hamlet, and he needs to evacuate now or he and all his vassals and serfs will be destroyed.

The base DC to convince him is 20, but since your news is a great inconvenience, you have -2 to your roll. Additionally, you have no proof except for what you saw with your own eyes, for an additional -2. Furthermore, the lord is famously unwise, giving you another -2 to your roll. On the other hand, your friendly relationship with the lord in the past as well as the cooboration of your story by the lord's spiritual advisor each grant you a +2 to your check, for a total combined modifier of -2.

You, a bard with 16 charisma (+3), a +2 synergy bonus from Bluff, and 8 ranks in diplomacy must roll a 9 or better to convince the Lord of your earnestness.

Deepblue706
2009-05-21, 04:08 PM
Diplomacy is to change someone's attitude towards you. Someone might love you, but not believe you. Therefore, diplomacy isn't appropriate for convincing someone that you're telling the truth; although, the rules state someone who wants to believe you gets a -5 to their Sense Motive check.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm

Bluff is to make a target believe something that you want it to believe. I think this is a bluff check vs their sense motive.

LibraryOgre
2009-05-21, 04:19 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm

It's not a bluff check on anyone's part, and in no way an opposed check. They make Sense Motive (modified by evidence and the like). If the total is 20 or higher, they get the sense that you are trustworthy (Hunch: DC 20). If it is les than 20, they don't get that sense (but that doesn't mean they automatically disbelieve you, either).

Tequila Sunrise
2009-05-21, 04:32 PM
Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Convincing someone of your truthfulness requires the same tricks as hiding your untruthfulness.

Deepblue706
2009-05-21, 04:58 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm

It's not a bluff check on anyone's part, and in no way an opposed check. They make Sense Motive (modified by evidence and the like). If the total is 20 or higher, they get the sense that you are trustworthy (Hunch: DC 20). If it is les than 20, they don't get that sense (but that doesn't mean they automatically disbelieve you, either).

Wait, couldn't both apply? If they don't get a Hunch, they might still be persuaded, no?

Dhavaer
2009-05-21, 05:16 PM
Bluff + Sense Motive vs the difficulty of what you're trying to convince them. So if you're a titan polymorphed into a halfling, you'd roll 1d20 + your Bluff mod + their Sense Motive against DC 30.

shadow_archmagi
2009-05-21, 06:26 PM
EDIT: Above post is correct.

However, I would rule that if your character has a habit of being a horrible liar (or particularly truthful)then you should get a bonus when telling the truth.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-05-21, 07:46 PM
EDIT: Above post is correct.

However, I would rule that if your character has a habit of being a horrible liar (or particularly truthful)then you should get a bonus when telling the truth.

I'd give 'em a 'truth bonus' even without an honest history. 'Cause, well, it's easier to appear truthful if you're actually telling the truth. (You don't have to concentrate on looking someone straight in the eye or on breathing normally or eliminating any of the other tells.)

woodenbandman
2009-05-21, 08:09 PM
I say eliminate the diplomacy skill, and turn bluff into persuasion. A lie gives a negative modifier to "persuasion," depending on the outrageousness of said lie. Evidence when trying to persuade someone that a given fact is true gives a circumstance bonus.

Diplomacy as written is way broken and doesn't even cause the NPC in question to believe your words, only to like you better.