How to fix the DnD economy?

[AvatarZero]

If you don't think the DnD economy is anything to get irritated about then feel free to skip this one, but I've never liked the way it works in any of the systems I've played.

The prices for mundane items and everyday life never make sense. Wealth and experience level are always tied together so you can throw away character concepts that don't match the system (ie. "no you can't play a prince or start play with an airship"). Prices for magic are always massively arbitrary. And because magic items are so expensive and desirable, you can't suggest not looting the still warm corpses of your opponents without becoming a social pariah at your gaming table.

The problem is, I can't see any way round this. A PC flat-out needs magical items of a particular level in order to function at his or her expected competency in 3.5 and 4E. As for the

Does anyone have any solutions for this one? Any system by which you can separate out how wealthy a character is and how good their equipment is? Anywhere I can find an alternative list of prices or wages or coinage for a system that isn't shackled to the +1 sword?

Any solution that isn't just "Play Exalted instead, it's got a much better setting."?

[Faulty]

Communist revolution?

[chiasaur11]

Communist revolution?

The proletariat is kinda hosed even if they try it.

Leveling just encourages the disparities inherent in the system!

[elliott20]

without basically throwing out the entire system? not really.

But here's an easier "fix" that I think is worth trying. Basically, when using the WBL table, never hand out actual currency or wealth. The crux here is PCs need equipment, not money. So give them equipment, or at least methods that allows them to get the equipment they need without actually having to go through the step of attaining large amounts of wealth.

This doesn't actually fix much, since you still are not putting the players into a realistic economic model. the price of things really should start gravitating based on the demands and needs of the society itself. i.e. +1 sword would probably be really expensive to buy and probably be really hard to sell in a society that is largely peaceful and doesn't have needs for a crap ton of weapons.

and then you also have to fix the fact that all monsters must drop treasure. Why must they? it doesn't make sense for every orc to have level appropriate treasure. it really doesn't. Hell, in the OOTS comic poked fun at that in the forest bandits story arc.

To really be able to run a full economy that makes sense, you almost HAVE to ditch the WBL after a while.

[Ravens_cry]

Have them work for someone, someone important. Like a Lord or a King. If they need equipment, have them requisition it. Or have it forged by their lieges armor smiths and weapon smiths. Sure he hands out a stipend, but he expects you to return the wealth from dungeons, except for a certain percentage. If they need magic items, have them talk with his Artificers and Alchemists, maybe it can be the hook for little side quests. But don't have it be Ye Olde Magic Shopee with buckets of gold, make their equipment special and meaningful.

[Levyathyn]

Screw the WBL. I use it sometimes, for convenience, but D&D money is angled from an Adventurer's perspecitve. 1) It's shiny and gold. Completely unrealistically. 2) A sword is much, much more expensive than th average stay at an inn, even a good one. A reliable blacksmith making mediocre goods can expect to live better than anyone else in his villaige, even on just two or three parties of adventurer's a year. I always drop to the steel coin and overpower the players slightly. It changes the game system, but it has a few benefits. The first is that early on, I can double the number of enemies I throw at them. A horde of orcs is more impressive than four, and just as dangerous. Same with goblins. Later on, more difficult single encounters can be thrown at them, and in fact, towards 20, the CR seems to even out a bit. But changing the prices is an in depth affair. I had a full typed list for the PHB once, but it's long gone. Basically, swords cost as much as three meals. Magic was rarer, though, and a little more expensive than normal, but often cooler and much more personalied in my games.

Unfortunately, I haven't run game like this since, but it's a good concept, and it always worked for me.

[elliott20]

massaging the numbers, while might give you a better fit of the prices for a particular time frame, it doesn't do very well if you want your campaign to span over the course of years in game time, where prices frequently change in a turbulent society.

There needs to be some mechanism or method that allows you to make adjustments on prices so that it can reflect at least some kind of supply/demand relationship. That alone will go a long way in fixing the pricing issue.

[Behold_the_Void]

4e low magic can be managed by giving characters bonuses that correspond to enhancements at various levels to signify their badassery.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Does anyone have any solutions for this one? Any system by which you can separate out how wealthy a character is and how good their equipment is? Anywhere I can find an alternative list of prices or wages or coinage for a system that isn't shackled to the +1 sword?


:confused:

Why shouldn't the wealthy characters have the best equipment? Particularly among adventurers, you purchase the most powerful items you can afford to make sure you can live to spend the rest of your purse.

I don't think you're talking about an economics problems - you're talking about a mechanics problem.

Magic items are important in any D&D economy because they are made important by the mechanics of the game. I mean, it doesn't help that it is assumed that you can get them at a store, but any WotC D&D basically requires you to level up your gear as you level up.

If you don't like that, it is easy to solve - extract the mechanical effects magical items are supposed to have and grant them to your PCs at the appropriate times. There are lots of "low magic worlds" over in the Homebrew section which handles this well.

Now, there are D&D games which aren't based on the prices of magical items - they're the TSR D&D games. There, magical items were not assumed for any level because there was no "standard encounter" for anything. Sure, you could have level-based wandering monster tables, but their lethality varied wildly depending on your roll. The prices were designed to "simulate" a medieval economy, with listings for standard wages and such. Also - making a magical item was Serious Business; there would be no magical item shops, so they would not be commoditized.

If that doesn't work for you, could you elaborate a bit on exactly what you want?

[Faulty]

The proletariat is kinda hosed even if they try it.

Leveling just encourages the disparities inherent in the system!

Generic classes only! Remove the division of party roles!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Generic classes only! Remove the division of party roles!
Experience is the opiate of the masses!

NPCs unite! You have nothing to lose but your plot hooks :smallcool:

[Pie Guy]

The way to fix the DnD economy is to have 10 foot poles cost less than a ladder. Everything else will just fall into place.

Check for yourself:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#adventuringGear

[Swordguy]

Experience is the opiate of the masses! You have nothing to lose but your character sheet!

...dammit O_H...

I think I hurt myself laughing.

Also, approves of your post:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Futurama_219_-_Mother%27s_Day.jpg/200px-Futurama_219_-_Mother%27s_Day.jpg

[chiasaur11]

Experience is the opiate of the masses!

NPCs unite! You have nothing to lose but your plot hooks :smallcool:

And probably your lives the instant the PCs feel like it.

Such is life.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And probably your lives the instant the PCs feel like it.

Such is life.
Ha!

The number of the NPC is legion - the bourgeois PC ruling class cannot kill every innkeeper and jail guard before they are overwhelmed by our 1d4 fists of revolution!

And the ruling class needs us - who else will rent them rooms, forge them swords, and dispense plot coupons? No, they only think they control us :smallcool:

[elliott20]

somebody needs to write the NPC manifesto.

[Faulty]

1d4 fists of revolution!

No way, it will be a permanencied revolution. :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

Ha!

The number of the NPC is legion - the bourgeois PC ruling class cannot kill every innkeeper and jail guard before they are overwhelmed by our 1d4 fists of revolution!

And the ruling class needs us - who else will rent them rooms, forge them swords, and dispense plot coupons? No, they only think they control us :smallcool:

They'll find them on corpses.

Nicking stuff off corpses is how PCs roll.

[Faulty]

There is something somewhat disturbing about an economy that is essentially based on the three pillars of feudalism, mercantalism and corpse looting.

[Waspinator]

Something from the original post: if the plot of the game warrants the PCs having an airship or a magical mecha or whatever other kind of vehicle you can think of, I say let them have one. It might not be the nicest one ever, but they can always upgrade it with their own cash later. Just make them out of character promise to not be jerks and immediately sell the thing to get other gear.

[Oracle_Hunter]

There is something somewhat disturbing about an economy that is essentially based on the three pillars of feudalism, mercantalism and corpse looting.
Bellisario's Maxim (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim) applies especially to D&D.

After all, you're a band of (usually) young mercenaries that wanders from town to town performing contract killings and various other criminal acts. In addition you leave a trail of corpses wherever you go, always thoroughly desecrated .

Best of all, you rarely act with any official sanction whatsoever - you're just so strong nobody can try to stop you :smalltongue:

[Theodoriph]

Fix the economy?

What economy?

D&D doesn't have an economy. It has players going around buying and selling things. Outside of those transactions, nothing occurs.

The current system would be no different from say the Gods awarding a character new equipment and items every level.

There is no real economy.

Of course a DM could create and roleplay an economy, but I've never seen one do it.

So perhaps you should create an economy for your campaign if you want one. =D If you just want a different way of distributing wealth, just remember that the wealth by level and monster treasure things are guidelines.

In one of my campaigns, my monsters never dropped treasure. Instead, every once in a while the PCs would find a useful item for the party members (e.g. they'd stumble across a dead adventurer) or receive one as a reward (e.g. for completing a quest for the local lord). They'd get free potions or scrolls from organizations they helped (e.g. the church or wizard's guild)...things like that. It made much more sense than the monsters having gold thing to me anyway.



It basically turned into a barter economy.

You want something from the rogue's guild? An invisibility potion...a magic dagger perhaps? If the guild has one and is willing to part with it, they ask you to complete a quest.

If the item is fairly cheap...the quest could be as simple as finding a villager and collecting on his debt....or (if the item is expensive) it could be a dungeon crawl that you'd integrate with your main plot.

You could have the guilds be proactive about it and approach the adventuring party about different goals they want fulfilled in the same dungeon (e.g. The Fighter's guild wants the kobolds wiped out, the thieves guild wants the diamond the kobolds are rumored to possess, the druids guild wants you to destroy the kobold's foresting operation, the wizards want the staff of the kobold shaman). And they'd each offer a different reward.

*shrugs*



I'm not sure the problem you're having can be resolved. An economy based on the gold piece is not viable in the standard dungeons and dragons world. A bartering economy is. Gold can be used, but it's more a thing for nobles in cities. The common person likely trades a hot meal for help thatching his roof or some milk for some wheat.

You won't be able to really create a system that makes sense given the situation.

[Malacode]

I seem to remember a topic on the wizards boards disproving the "Flawed Economy" hypothesis. It proved that a familiy of commoners could support themselves easily for a year with enough money left over for a horse, cart and plough, then showed that all the expensive magical gear was essentially useless to anyone -but- adventurers. Then again, that isn't your major gripe.

Think of it this way: You start out with what you're given, really. That snotty farm kid's best weapon is the old rusty sword that belonged to his great grandfather, who was drafted into some war. It sure ain't masterwork and there's no way it's +1. As he learns to use the sword, he earns money. He doesn't get better because he gets money, he gets money 'cause he's getting better and earning more. Now he can afford a bigger, shinier, plussier sword.
"But what about the kids/grandkids/greatgrandkids of adventurers/nobles/merchants? They'd have acess to awesome magical gear" I hear you cry. Don't forget, it's a medieval-style setting. Just how many people could be considered weathly during the dark ages? Not that many. Just how many of these wealthy people would -want- to go out and fight Orcs and Hydrae?
There are way more snotty farm kids with a ploughshare and the desire to have a better life than haughtly noble-borns willing to risk everything for nothing.

[Ponce]

Hardline monetary policy to push down inflation.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hardline monetary policy to push down inflation.
Dude, it's a specie-based economy.

The only way to "push down inflation" is to start Disintergrating piles of gold :smalltongue:

[Theodoriph]

You could create multiple economies.

A rural economy and an urban economy, with people in cities being more likely to use money and people in rural areas being more likely to trade goods.


As for the distinction between wealth and equipment, that's up to the DM. It says in the DM's guide that magic items may be more or less expensive...if you can find someone who has one.

So, if you want to allow someone to be rich yet they don't have great equipment, you just need to restrict the supply of equipment and hand it out as rewards.

Restrictions on magic equipment make sense too. It's not like there are a lot of adventurers running around who need it. And there probably aren't alot of high enough crafters who can make them.

In other words, there's not enough of a demand for there to be a large supply.

This would also fix the problem that every peasant should be training their kid as a blacksmith =D

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't know how well this is going to work, but... for my theoritical campaign, all the PCs will be from "monster" races, and will largely be operating on a barter economy.

And while magic items will be fairly common place, in order to get good equipment, you need to get good materials, and get favor with powerful spirits.

Forget the part that says that WBL that is "gold", and assume it's just "value". Gold's value is completely arbitrary in the real world anyways.

So. Here's how I see it. That big list of prices for goods and services? Just consider that a theoretical thing, and let the PCs get whatever they want. They want 8 ten foot poles? Alright. (Assuming they can carry them of course). 100 pounds of food? Why not? They might get hungry.

All those nifty weapons and magic equipment and all still has the same prices though.



Not only that, but rather than finding a bunch of gold and exchanging it to a conveniently located magic weapon shop... how about the monsters have it on them. I mean if you think about it, who is that flaming sword of +5 murder going to benefit more. Some foppish Prince, or Urloc, Lord of the Trolls.

There's no need to put an arbitrary number of coins on corpses with the intent for them to be looted, just that after every kill each player gets some "potential wealth".

How does a PC get the equipment they want, rather than what you arbitrarily decide to give them? That's really where it helps if you can go off to the outskirts of town to talk to that strange Shaman... He'll yell at the spirits and coerce them into helping you, because you're the only ones kind, or insane enough to actually talk to him. Assuming of course you can find where they live and bring back the right items. It's really probably better to set this up ahead of time, so that you can hide it in some of the loot.

Certainly makes treasure hunting more interesting. A worthless little chunk of iron might be necessary in order to make your Shield of convincing rhetoric, or necklace of long winded examples that don't really go anywhere +3.


Mind you, I'm of the school of thought of letting Adventurers get creative, and loot the physical components of the dungeon. Like the big metal iron doors. Sure they're big and heavy... but that's what multidimensional magic is for. Knock it off it's hinges into your physics defying sack! Of course, nothing is saying that the big metal door couldn't also be home to Rak, spirit diplomat of the door lord.

[Oslecamo]

Ok, I have to ask this:

If real-world economists who worked for decades in economy and were paid huge bucks for it can't fix it, what hopes does D&D as a simply roleplaying game to attain this?

Simply put, there isn't a single economic economy system that actually makes sense and it's completely unbreackable, be it in a game or real life. There will always be exploitable loopholes that'll allow people to get rich easily in the system if they're smart enough and will simultaneously screw random people who weren't smart/ruthless enough.

So why keep beating the dead horse? You'll have an easier time trying to unite all the forces of physics or finding the cure for all kinds of cancer than to fix economy in any situation.

[Murdim]

This would also fix the problem that every peasant should be training their kid as a blacksmith =DWhy a blacksmith ? Who need a blacksmith when a 11th level wizard with 20 Int and 5 ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) can cast Fabricate twice a day to transform 11 cubic foot of metal into masterwork blades in 66 seconds ? :smallbiggrin:

[shadzar]

A PC flat-out needs magical items of a particular level in order to function at his or her expected competency in 3.5 and 4E. As for the

As for the... what? :smallconfused:

Try an older edition where you had more money than you could spend it on things?

3.x throw out ye olde magick shoppe of wands etc. have people depend less on their bag of rats, and bag of CLW sticks.

Have them make their own dang gear. :smallannoyed:

4th, you are pretty much screwed. Just follow the instructions on the box, or rewrite the whole system. There really isn't much to spend money on anyway outside of magic items, so all the other needs of the characters are met under the systems defualt. If you want to add other things not listed for players to do and spend money on, then just add some coinage to the treasure to allow them to spend on it. If they decide to spend that on items instead, then it is their own fault, and they will have to "melt" down magic items for the 20% value of residuum for the lower levels items in order to spend on any of your extra stuff.

You could also just alter the exchange rates for items and remove the 1/5 concept if you feel that isn't enough or players want to haggle and not get ripped off by Wizards merchants.

Maybe give a few extra level 1 junk items in treasure so they can turn it into some more money should you feel they need it.

Sorry I can't help more with 3.x and ideas, but that was a mess.

Older editions really have a better bit of room for an economic system.

You can always just rewrite the prices for any game you play to make them work better for your group. Just be cautious with 3rd+ editions as they do rely on players having X amount of wealth.

What types of things are you really looking to do with the economy outside of removing the shackles of the magic item based economy?

EDIT: starting wealth and character concepts.

Knew I was forgetting something from the OP.

Well the system just doesn't allow it because if you think about it it doesn't work, and each system has explained why. If you have someone coming form a wealthy family, then why are they adventuring? Do they just automatically have the best gear they can find? Who would want to adventure with this stuck up snob that doesn't even need them to do anything but carry his allotment of gear for him?

Example: Cavaliers

The games just don't allow for it because why would a prince be out adventuring anyway if they have money? The royalty usually get other peopel to get their hands dirty for them.

I have never seen any justification for a wealthy person to start adventuring with the rest of the group, or a way to no make things that aren't nrear TPKs, for a wealthy starting party.

There is little in the way for them to earn anything if they a;ready have the best stuff for 5-6 levels ahead worth of fighting.

If I misunderstood your dilemma, then please correct me in understanding the problems.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding the airship, couldn't you just ask the DM for a quest where you can get one early in the game if you wanted one? (I'd probably let the players get one somehow if they wanted one). As far as spells go, my campaign worlds tend to be high magic settings where Clerics are paid for out of taxes to provide healthcare for the Commoners, so their spells tend to be cheaper for PCs as a result. (I tend to use this to explain why it's quite easy to buy magic items as well.) Admittedly, the fact that Fabricate and Create Food and Water traps would eliminate the need for labourers, so I should probably ban those from my games to make the situation more plausible.

[Theodoriph]

Why a blacksmith ? Who need a blacksmith when a 11th level wizard with 20 Int and 5 ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) can cast Fabricate twice a day to transform 11 cubic foot of metal into masterwork blades in 66 seconds ? :smallbiggrin:


Being a blacksmith is inherently less dangerous than sending your kid out as a level 1 wizard =D

That's why =D

[Faulty]

Bellisario's Maxim (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim) applies especially to D&D.

After all, you're a band of (usually) young mercenaries that wanders from town to town performing contract killings and various other criminal acts. In addition you leave a trail of corpses wherever you go, always thoroughly desecrated .

Best of all, you rarely act with any official sanction whatsoever - you're just so strong nobody can try to stop you :smalltongue:

Pretty much everyone with wealth is either nobility/royalty, a merchant, a high level priest or caster at a church or academy, or a character with a lot of levels in PC classes. A lot of the characters with a lot of levels in PC classes did it through killing things, and a lot of people who kill things to level up are adventurers. Adventurers generally do this by breaking into homes, castles, caves and ruins, slaughtering every moving inhabitant and then looting wall-to-wall and grabbing everything that looks like it might be worth one copper piece. Hell, if you read adventures in Dungeon, they list the market price of objects in people's homes.

When you think about it, powerful adventurers/people are pretty much their own self-sustaining economic niche. They're the only people who can reasonably afford and make use of high level equipment and magic items, and the only ones who can make or obtain them. When you think about it, it's somewhat absurd.

And no one got the permanancied revolution joke? :smallfrown:

[Zaq]

The D&D economy is right next to the HP system, the AC system, and the whole concept of the initiative system on my list of "Meh, it's D&D, it doesn't have to make sense" items.

Basically, these things (as well as countless others) are the way they are simply because trying force them to make sense would be a headache at best and damn near impossible at worst. There are plenty of aspects of the game that actively make less sense the more you think about them. While I'm all in favor of intelligent discussions about the finer aspects of D&D, there are some things that simply defy rational discussion.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And no one got the permanancied revolution joke? :smallfrown:
It was from "The revolution will not be televised" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised) right? :smallconfused:

[Halaster]

In order to fix the economy, you would have to kick out like 90% of the system. D&D revolves around characters so insanely powerful compared to ordinary folks that they practically need a separate economy of their own. From that point of view the whole thing makes sense. If you can single handedly wipe out a mid-sized town, then why not spend the yearly budget of the average barony on a sword?
Then again that leads down dangerous pathes. Are not the Munchkins in effect right when they ignore all the rules and just go about killing whoever displeases them, taking whatever they want and telling the so-called powers that be to go make love to themselves?

So, fixing the economy isn't the issue really. Fixing your expectations is. You must simply assume that all the power and money in the world is in the hands of high-level characters, because nobody else could hope to hold on to it. If an old adventurer has a young son, he won't give that kid a +3 sword. That would only get the boy killed by someone high-level enough to actually deserve that blade. Instead t old man gives him a simple longsword and hopes that he will stay under the radar until he's tough enough to earn his own +X weapon.

So, tying wealth to level is not only sensible, but inevitable, as wealth in the hands of low-level folk bleeds away like nothing. That doesn't even require the aid of Munchkin type "I kill the king" players. Just imagine a dragon who thinks about stealing the royal treasury. What's to stop him? A level 1 noble and 200 level 1 warriors? I don't think so. Who can get the money back? An 18th level adventuring party. Why would they do that? So they can be the rulers instead. It's just human (and the king is dead anyway).
If I remember right, the good old Forgotten Realms had pretty much that setting. Anyone important and wealthy was high-level, towns were ruled by retired adventurers or warrior-kings. Handle your world like that and suddenly the economy made sense. Except for the thing with the ladder and the 10-foot-pole.

[Oracle_Hunter]

OK - economies can be modeled as you want them; even D&D economies. You just figure out the assumptions of the system, and extrapolate.

In WotC D&D the following is assumed:
- Magical Items are expensive, but easy enough to make that they can be sold in markets
- The "mundane" economy is built around the 1sp/day an unskilled laborer makes
- Magic is powerful and necessary for facing powerful foes

A two-tier economy is easy to work out:
- Commoners, who deal in ladders, turnips and farm equipment
- Elite, who deal in magic

The PHB depicts the Commoner Economy which dominates most of civilization. Goods are cheap enough for Commoners to be able to survive. The Elite Economy needs to be constructed, but as a broad framework it is the purview of adventurers, casters, and rulers and is based around the gold piece.

In the Elite Economy, magic items are the daily bread of the Elite classes. Elites possess magic items that are expensive and highly desirable; if they do not keep up with the arms race they will be killed for their items by other Elites. Making magical items and finding them in ruins are the two main methods of "production" here; gold & experience is required for the creation of magic items and, as you cannot trade experience, gold becomes the base currency of the system.

The Elite Economy does not have a "market" per se, but there is trade. Adventurers and Casters can produce magic items and offer them to other Elites in exchange for gold. Gold, in addition to making magic items, can be used to purchase other Elite accoutrement - property, permanent magic buffs - and attend to more mundane needs. Since Elites are so much more powerful than Commoners, it makes sense that their base currency can buy much more from the Commoner Market; Commoners rely on Elites for protection from other Elites (and monsters) and if Elites only accept gold & magic as currency there will be a huge demand for both in a Commoner Economy. Unfortunately, magic items are so valuable that few Commoners could afford to buy one, let alone a powerful one - so gold is the main exchange currency between the two Economies.

How's that?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Does anyone have any solutions for this one? Any system by which you can separate out how wealthy a character is and how good their equipment is? Anywhere I can find an alternative list of prices or wages or coinage for a system that isn't shackled to the +1 sword?

You want a game that's not D&D. Conan d20 is really, really close, but better in many small ways (combat, multiclassing, magic). D&D is too equipment-dependent, which makes it money-dependent. Yes, that sucks. Heroes shouldn't be defined by their gear, but by their abilities. Equipment-dependency only works out well for modern, cyberpunk, and science fiction games with a focus on technology (but then it works out really wonderfully, and increases realism).

I can never, ever recommend Conan d20 too highly (unless, I suppose, I were to claim it is superior to The Riddle of Steel). The book even tells you that the default for every adventure should be the players starting out, true to Howard's novels, with no money and probably no more equipment than a loincloth and a sword, if that. If they do have money, power, an army, or whatever, it's only so they can lose it. The heroes are supposed to wade their way naked through screaming hordes of picts, steal a hauberk off a Nemedian mercenary, and crush skulls with their sledgehammer fists in absence of actual weapons. Also, when they have more than a handful of coins, their cost of living is 50% of all money on hand per week. I love that.

[Faulty]

It was from "The revolution will not be televised" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised) right? :smallconfused:

Nope, somewhere else. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_revolution)