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pasko77
2009-05-21, 08:32 PM
So in my group there is a 40% (2 out of 5) of female players, both girlfriends of another player in the group. That would be nice, if they were not cause of trouble.

1) One of the girls plays a bully, continuously cohercing into obedience other characters. Since she plays an Orc she says it is just in character. While it might be true, other players find unfair the fact she does not share treasure. She currently has an unused magic weapon in her inventory, while other characters still have mundane gear.

2) The other girl simply plays the "chaotic stupid" at its worst. Portal to hell? She trips her teammate into the portal. Pact with the kobolds? She offers the lives of her teammates for money.

I'm really having a hard time on not justifying the teammates just to slit their throats while they sleep.

In the current session, girl 2 just caused the dead of herself and another character. What i foresee is that both will start a war to kill each other again and again, thus ruining the game.

Further things: there are no issues in the couples. Lady psycho did trip another character in hell, not her boyfriend, and the bully one is my girlfriend... and she can't bully the DM :)
But she simply won't listen. Either i coherce her into what i think right (and i won't) or she will keep bullying others. And hell, i KNOW she will get mad if anything happens to her character.

What should i do?

Faulty
2009-05-21, 08:33 PM
Get their boyfriends to talk to them about it? They might be more prone to listen to their mates.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-21, 08:34 PM
Let the other players kill them. When they whine they did it because they're female, say that no, they did it because they're acting like stupid jerks.

Alternatively, talk with them. Tell them that "I'm roleplaying my character!" is not a good reason for acting like a stupid jerk towards the other party members.

pasko77
2009-05-21, 08:34 PM
Get their boyfriends to talk to them about it? They might be more prone to listen to their mates.

Tried and failed. :(

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-21, 08:37 PM
Let the other players kill them. When they whine they did it because they're female, say that no, they did it because they're acting like stupid jerks.

Alternatively, talk with them. Tell them that "I'm roleplaying my character!" is not a good reason for acting like a stupid jerk towards the other party members.

This. If the characters wouldn't stand for that sort of treatment, and are used to reacting with violence, the jerks that are screwing them over deserve what they get for purposefully pissing them off.

After the smoke clears, explain that their characters got what they deserved, and that if they don't want another PK they should play someone a bit more friendly to the group.

Faulty
2009-05-21, 08:40 PM
Show them that there are consequences for their actions. A lot of people new to D&D who are used to video games are used to antisocial actions not having real consequences. Have the other players fight back, so to speak, and have them talk to the boyfriends first, so they don't get defensive. Alternatively put NPCs after them; city guards, bounty hunters, overzealous paladins, inevitables, etc. Show them their actions have consequences, just like in the real world.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-21, 08:41 PM
Talk to them. Directly. if you really feel their actions in game and out are disrupting the game, tell them. Be considerate, but firm.

AslanCross
2009-05-21, 08:43 PM
Explain to them (gently) that this game is one whose primary consideration is everybody's fun. Thus, one's own fun should not be at anyone else's (player's or DM's) expense.

"RPing my character" is never an excuse for being nasty about it.

Honestly, this isn't limited to girl players. My female players have always been the more mature ones.

Keld Denar
2009-05-21, 08:45 PM
Alternatively, talk with them. Tell them that "I'm roleplaying my character!" is not a good reason for acting like a stupid jerk towards the other party members.

+1

As Saph would say:

Rule 1: No Douchebaggery
Rule 2: See Rule 1

Gender is not an excuse, either way. Handle it like an adult, talk about it like an adult, and worst case worst, politely ask the player to leave. Don't make a big production, just say "I feel like you are causing problems to the detriment of the fun of others. Please stop, or find another game." Be firm, yet willing to be understanding. If the other players have any maturity to them, they will hopefully be able to see their problems and change, or understand the reasons behind your request.

Either way, don't make a big production out of it, and don't do it in front of the other players (other than the SO, possibly). People generally don't like being called out in public, and that may cause animosity. Outside the game, handle it like an adult.

Mobey_Wee
2009-05-21, 08:48 PM
I was in a similar situation. My girlfriend was playing, and because my girlfriend played, this other guy's girlfriend had to play too. My lady friend was (and still is) a great player. She's not exactly the leader type for the party, but she role plays well, and gets into the narrative and stuff. Other guy's girlfriend is the chick who is setting off traps and alarms, trying to fight EVERY SINGLE character in the game, also chaotic stupid to the extreme. What happened? My girlfriend and I got another smaller game going with some of the other players, and the first game just became a back up game, and for those games, my gal didn't play that one anymore, so the other chick didn't feel the need to either. But yeah. Not much of a solution. Kind of sucks, specially since your lady is one of the ones making it worse on every one. You should probably slap her around a bit... in the game of course. Chaotic stupid is much harder to deal with. The bully, you could probably talk to the other players in the group, they stop healing/buffing her, rogue takes the weapons, stuff like that. And if she gets mad at that, well "it is just in character."

sambo.
2009-05-21, 08:52 PM
the only problem with girl players is: there aren't enough of them.

woodenbandman
2009-05-21, 08:53 PM
Let the other players kill them. When they whine they did it because they're female, say that no, they did it because they're acting like stupid jerks.

Alternatively, talk with them. Tell them that "I'm roleplaying my character!" is not a good reason for acting like a stupid jerk towards the other party members.

When a character attacks another character, the death of the first character is a perfectly viable in-character response. After all, that's what happens when NPCs attack other characters.

Swordguy
2009-05-21, 09:26 PM
[apologies in advance]

Tell them you've got a new game for them that, judging by the way they behave, is right up their alley.

FATAL. Don't tell them ANYTHING about it it ahead of time.

When they complain, tell them that if they behave, they can go back to a game that doesn't suck. Or D&D - their choice.

elliott20
2009-05-21, 09:36 PM
i find it interesting that the OP feels the need to point out the players are girls when the problem is clearly not a gender one.

Justin B.
2009-05-21, 09:36 PM
I understand your issues with your girlfriend being a poor player. When I game with my girlfriend she finds it extremely hard to seperate in character actions from out of game actions.

I used to go to bed many a night haing to deal with an angry young lady because we decided to go another route on a plan other than her "better" alternative.

However, I'm a firm believer in in-game actions create in-game consequences. A character holding a magic item that could potentially be useful for someone else? That's inappropriate and requires action. Not only is a magic item of some severe worth, it's a potentially life-saving device that this character is keeping to herself. She should find it removed from her bag in the middle of the night.

This is going to create problems for you, as you're the boyfriend. She may come to you angry that the others are mistreating her. Simply make it clear that in-character is in-character and you're not playing favorites.

Secondly, imagine for a second how the other players must feel? The GM's girlfriend is the one causing them the problems, they may be hesitating to act on their own behalf because they fear some kind of retribution from you. Sooner or later you'll find that all of your players have vanished unless you take some form of action.

I would suggest an NPC that joins up with the party for a bit, examines the ways that the bully character is treating the rest, and suggests some actions. If the other PC's go along, great, if not, the NPC leaves disgusted with the party and take something important with him. Maybe it's a vital piece of information, maybe it's a magic item.

Good luck.

WrathOfLife
2009-05-21, 10:10 PM
[apologies in advance]

Tell them you've got a new game for them that, judging by the way they behave, is right up their alley.

FATAL. Don't tell them ANYTHING about it it ahead of time.

When they complain, tell them that if they behave, they can go back to a game that doesn't suck. Or D&D - their choice.

Wow, thats harsh, still it may actually work....

but if it backfires and they like the game which must not be named, well then, you got yourself a real problem....

elliott20
2009-05-21, 10:13 PM
that's like a black guy taking a liking to minstrel shows.

Dacia Brabant
2009-05-21, 10:23 PM
i find it interesting that the OP feels the need to point out the players are girls when the problem is clearly not a gender one.

I was thinking the same thing. I was expecting something like the other girl-gamer threads that are active right now (why so many all of a sudden I wonder), but I don't see what their two X-chromosomes have to do with it. Well other than the genes on them that make them predisposed to jerkassery I guess.

If they want to play chaotic stupid/stupid evil just have rocks fall on their heads and have them make new characters. If they do it with their next characters drop more rocks on them and tell them if you have to drop rocks one more time all their subsequent characters reincarnate as 0-level, 0-hit point Commoners incapable of ever gaining any XP or taking any actions.

Edit: Oh I didn't notice that one of the problem players is your girlfriend. Hmm, yeah that makes this a lot harder. You may just want to end the game for now and talk with her privately about her behavior.

yilduz
2009-05-21, 10:33 PM
I understand your issues with your girlfriend being a poor player. When I game with my girlfriend she finds it extremely hard to seperate in character actions from out of game actions.

I used to go to bed many a night haing to deal with an angry young lady because we decided to go another route on a plan other than her "better" alternative.

However, I'm a firm believer in in-game actions create in-game consequences. A character holding a magic item that could potentially be useful for someone else? That's inappropriate and requires action. Not only is a magic item of some severe worth, it's a potentially life-saving device that this character is keeping to herself. She should find it removed from her bag in the middle of the night.

This is going to create problems for you, as you're the boyfriend. She may come to you angry that the others are mistreating her. Simply make it clear that in-character is in-character and you're not playing favorites.

Secondly, imagine for a second how the other players must feel? The GM's girlfriend is the one causing them the problems, they may be hesitating to act on their own behalf because they fear some kind of retribution from you. Sooner or later you'll find that all of your players have vanished unless you take some form of action.

I would suggest an NPC that joins up with the party for a bit, examines the ways that the bully character is treating the rest, and suggests some actions. If the other PC's go along, great, if not, the NPC leaves disgusted with the party and take something important with him. Maybe it's a vital piece of information, maybe it's a magic item.

Good luck.

I can't believe it took 15 posts to make this point (the bolded part). Of course the other players aren't doing anything, and of course she feels she can get away with it... her boyfriend is the one running the world.

You're stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one, though. Let the game be ruined by your girlfriend (because the other players WILL get fed up with it eventually) or have a very angry girlfriend. I don't envy you.

Knaight
2009-05-21, 11:04 PM
Or let somebody else GM for a while. Or attempt the in character method, which usually doesn't work well, but it is possible that your girl friend is trying to play a character who is deeply cynical of sentient life as a whole, and has developed a callous shell towards it, but is actually a nice person. The sort of thing that would work well for a main character in a novel. Ask if that is what she is going for, it can work well, and be fun to play. I've done something similar, with a character who was basically an *******(sorry about the language, but its the only real way to explain it), and thought he was better than everybody else at everything. He was used to dealing with a carefree lifestyle that didn't suit him well, and came around to understanding there are other dedicated, competent people, because of his party. Fun character for everyone, and not the only character with psychological problems and an attitude.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-05-21, 11:12 PM
Man, I hope I wasn't this much of a jackass when my girlfriend was GMing a game.

I'd say first thing is to try harder to make them both, including your girlfriend, understand that they are making the game not fun for other players. D&D is a game of cooperation both in the game and the metagame, so just suggest that if they feel the need to ruin other peoples' days, they find some way to do it to people who aren't your (presumably mutual) friends who want to play a team game with them.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-22, 12:01 AM
So, a player decides that it's a good idea to play a big jerk. This pisses everyone off.

"I'm just roleplaying my character!"

"It's good to roleplay your character's personality. But you shouldn't give your character in the first place a personality that's obviously going to make the game unpleasant for the other players! You chose to make your character this problematic, when you created her if not when you roleplayed her. Why did you make that choice?

And you know what? The reason that you get to roleplay your character is because of how the other players are choosing not to roleplay theirs. If they were reacting realistically, your character would be dead or at least kicked out of the group by now. But they're making a metagame decision to tweak their characters' behavior in a friendly direction because they don't want to go against another player. Well, I've got news for you. If you can't extend them the same courtesy, they may stop doing that for you.

In any situation, there are lots of plausible ways your character could act. It shouldn't be too hard to find a choice that lets her get along well with the rest of the party. Decide to react differently (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html)!"

Ashdate
2009-05-22, 12:20 AM
I'm echoing the statements here that the fact the players are female is completely inconsequential.

Also, my solution towards a player who was 'roleplaying' a jerk? Nail him with a Gaes/Quest spellbook trap right out of the Logicninja's guide, declaring that he must return the spellbook unharmed and perform a quest for me. I told him he had to act nice and encouraging to his party members for one year.

He hasn't lasted 10 minutes, but that's alright. I'll just keep reminding him he's got a -2 to darn near everything he rolls.

Giggling Ghast
2009-05-22, 01:48 AM
The fact that they're girls is irrelevant. Problem players happen at any table.

I would suggest talking to the first player, the one with the orc character. Inform her that she's alienating the other members of the group. Roleplaying a gruff, pushy orc is one thing, but it's another to be a bully.

As for the Chaotic Stupid player ... man, I don't know. I've dealt with those players before, and the only thing I can suggest is booting her. Or, again, maybe talk to her. If she's screwing with the game, she probably doesn't even like it.

If nothing else, throw your hands up in the air and say "I quit." Maybe one of the girls will take over DM duties.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-22, 01:50 AM
Why is FATAL such a bad game? If I'm honest, I'm guessing that explaining gentally that they ar disrupting everyone elses fun won't have any effect here due to how they were claiming they were acting IC when this was brought up before.

Pronounceable
2009-05-22, 01:56 AM
It's more like problems with girlfriend players. Which is the reason OP can't just simply say "**** off, I don't want you in my game anymore.", which is the perfect course of action against such players under normal conditions.

I would drop the game entirely. Other players hating this is a given. There's only so much crap one can put up with, it's a wonder they haven't left already. Except for the two jerks, everyone is miserable. That is not a good game. If it doesn't get better very fast, it'll trainwreck. Stopping now would be mercy killing.

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-22, 02:05 AM
Get their boyfriends to talk to them about it? They might be more prone to listen to their mates.

You don't know women so much, do you?

/sexism

My stoopid joke aside, the title is misleading - they are problematic players, male or female does not matter.

Simply talk again to them, try to argument better the risks the campaign can face with their behaviour.

Serpentine
2009-05-22, 02:22 AM
I think it's worth explaining something that I found out fairly recently: It is a very good thing to roleplay your character well. However, it is you, the player, who determines the personality of your character. If roleplaying your character properly is causing this sort of damage, then you need to reassess your character's personality and adjust it - maybe even in the form of in-game development - to something that you can roleplay just as devotedly without the jerkfacedness.
Also it'd probably be a good idea to tell the other players that you're aware of these problems and are struggling to fix them, and that if they have any ideas they shouldn't be afraid to tell you just because you're going out with one of the problems.

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 02:52 AM
Why is FATAL such a bad game? If I'm honest, I'm guessing that explaining gentally that they ar disrupting everyone elses fun won't have any effect here due to how they were claiming they were acting IC when this was brought up before.

I can say this from actually having played it (unlike, I guarantee, everyone else who'll answer this question)... Take two pounds of incorrect historical "facts", add three cups of stupid, a dash of idiocy, a pound of misogyny, a half-pound of pathetic sexual innuendo, 6.27oz of racism, and a 40lb box of rape, along with just a pinch of actual historic accuracy, put it all in a jumbo-sized blender from hell and hit "gooify"...and you get FATAL.

Really. We tried it for laughs (VERY mature group who, like you, was curious what was up with it), and if you ignore most of the misogyny, poop references, and sexual innuendo, and are a fan of Rolemaster-style gameplay (which we are), then it's a workable game - as long as the GM is willing to put in a HUGE amount of work bypassing the squicky bits. It's certainly not "good" by any definition of 'good" I'm aware of. As written, it's very DEFINITELY deserving of the title "worst game ever published", just edging past Synnibarr and SenZar.

The horrible part is that, for all its faults, it's the only game I can think of offhand that does make a big deal about the misogyny and racism which really were present in the Middle Ages, along with some rape statistics (which are difficult to figure - since in a feudal male-dominated setting consent is immaterial anyway when discussing relations between the aristocracy and the peasantry) that are at least in the ballpark of correct. The times really did suck and the game reflects this - it's that nobody in their right mind...nobody...wants to actually play that sort of life for any length of time. It's a horrible game because it reflects, in part, the setting. It's ADDITIONALLY a horrible game because the creators are horrible people and added so much horrible stuff to an already bad game to make it...well...horrible.


And all this is why I can make an educated statement that FATAL is best used as a "punishment" for unruly players. It's certainly not good for anything else. OK...maybe kindling. If you print it. And your printer doesn't catch on fire.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-22, 02:59 AM
:smalleek: Thanks for explaining. Considering my tastes in RPing (eg: my favourite RPing character is a talking fennec fox with Generic Spellcaster levels and my games are as gory as a standard Sonic the Hedgehog game), I'm better off avoiding that. It could work as far as teaching the players a lesson goes, but it could also cause arguements due to the content.

kamikasei
2009-05-22, 03:02 AM
And all this is why I can make an educated statement that FATAL is best used as a "punishment" for unruly players. It's certainly not good for anything else. OK...maybe kindling. If you print it. And your printer doesn't catch on fire.

Isn't the rulebook something like 600-900 pages? Get it vanity printed in hardcover and use it to stun intruders.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-22, 03:08 AM
Isn't the rulebook something like 600-900 pages? Get it vanity printed in hardcover and use it to stun intruders.
Can't you just hold it in front of you and use Turn Stomach? :smallbiggrin:

Still, someone who actually played FATAL. Way to take one for the team :smalltongue:

Also: I'm going to say that using object lessons to change player behavior is generally a bad idea - I would go so far as to say always, actually. At best it's a heavy-handed way of communicating an idea; at worst it is a passive-aggressive waste of time guaranteed to make everyone angry.

Here's what I'd do
Why are these girls playing in the first place? Were they roleplayers beforehand, or are they just there to spend time with their S.O.'s? If they are roleplayers then you just have to explain to them that this kind of behavior won't fly in your game - and stop running the game entirely if your girlfriend won't play nice. You can easily kick someone else's S.O., but I would never suggest doing that with your own S.O. - a relationship should not hinge on a single hobby.

If you keep things going as they are, someone is going to snap - it's a pressure-cooker situation. You can either way until they alienate the other players or their boyfriends get sick of the whole thing OR you can head it off now. Later, after everyone has some time to cool down, you can start up another game with the "good" players and, if the girlfriends want to join in, make sure they know they are on probation and that if they start the crap that shut down the last game, they're out.
But, before doing all that, try to have an honest conversation with your girlfriend to find out why she's acting this way. Make it as mature as you can; if there is some underlying problem you can address it. If she's just "one of those players" then you'll have to go with Plan B. But always try to speak frankly about these things before doing anything else - the direct route will be less painful than the passive-aggressive one.

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 03:12 AM
:smalleek: Thanks for explaining. Considering my tastes in RPing (eg: my favourite RPing character is a talking fennec fox with Generic Spellcaster levels and my games are as gory as a standard Sonic the Hedgehog game), I'm better off avoiding that. It could work as far as teaching the players a lesson goes, but it could also cause arguements due to the content.

Well...that's half the point. The very MOMENT one of the OP's players complains about the content (preferrably one of the trouble players) he immediately references all the horrible things the PCs had been doing in the D&D game, and points out that since they want to do these horrible things, he felt that they should switch to a system better suited for it.

DM: "So guys, I just wanted to point that out, y'know, since this game actually has mechanics for all the stuff you wanted to do in D&D. Just pointing it out - I figured you'd be happy that we're running a system better suited to your tastes. Now, I'm gonna need everyone to check their anal circumfrence stat...oh wait, I forgot. I guess I could offer to switch back to D&D if you don't want to play like this. I mean, I've invested a lot of time into resetting the game like this, but I'm sure you could convince me to run D&D again. But, if you'd rather continue the way we've been going, we should probably just stick with FATAL. *sigh* Now, about those checks..."

About now is when every player who's worth gaming with in the first place starts clamoring to bring back D&D, whatever the cost.

Applied psychology, my dear Watson. :smallbiggrin:

Swordguy
2009-05-22, 03:13 AM
Still, someone who actually played FATAL. Way to take one for the team :smalltongue:

Can you...NOT...use that particular turn of phrase in reference to FATAL?

Please?

:smallwink:

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-22, 03:22 AM
While it's possible to have evil characters in a party, even jerk ones, it tends not to work very well most of the time.

My general rule is, only NPCs are acceptable victims.

For me, it goes without saying that the PCs are somehow special. It applies to a lot of circumstances. And of those is, that the party members treat each other differently than they might to other people.

I think that the rule books should come with a few lines about what it means to be playing the game. And one of the big ones is that you're a team. Weather that's the kind of team from a bad sports movie, the kind pulling a big heist, or a cabal of cultists intent on bringing forth their dark god to purge this unclean world in black flames, so in it's ashes it can be made a better place in which ice cream subsidies are greater in quantity.

The point is, that you're all working together to the same goal. It's not about who gets to push people around.

I can't help but wonder if this is an extension of their normal personality. Yeah, I know you'll say it isn't and they're nice and all but... sometimes we don't see people for who they really are. I'm not saying you're dealing with violent psychopaths, but they could be a more subtle kind of bully. At the very least they have looked at the game, and found a way to take control of it. That's not how this game is to be played, and they should know better than to be that selfish.


People need to learn how to play heroes before they play villains, because roleplaying games are a cooperative experience. If Johnny Mustache Twirler can't stop kicking burning puppies into the orphanage long enough to actually advance the plot, it's not going to be a very fun game.

Chaotic Stupid also bothers me. If you're going to play a maniac, play a genius maniac. (Think Jack Sparrow here. Or at least the kind of person who throws waffles at demons. That sounds like the kind of stupid that could be smart.)


In order for a game to be good, some level of disruption is necessary. The PCs should be able to throw a monkey wrench into the works as it were. Shooting the villain in the middle of his speech. Killing enemies way too soon. Ruining the economy by flooding it with treasure.

It's fine if the GMs plans get messed up, but if a player screws things over for the rest of the party they're doing it wrong.


There's all kinds of entertaining, kamic things you can do to disruptive PCs, but they really fail to address the real problems.

I would tell them that, they're ruining the game for the others. And if they want to keep playing, they'll have to adjust their characters.

And if they demonstrate they can work the rest of the PCs, in the next game everyone can play villains. That way, the team gets to be disruptive together, and only other people get hurt.


If you can't work things out, I would say drop the game entirely. Best not to ruin a relationship over a game.

pasko77
2009-05-22, 03:57 AM
i find it interesting that the OP feels the need to point out the players are girls when the problem is clearly not a gender one.

Yes, yes. Rereading my own post i found it sexist.
The problem might be i've been taught to be more gentle to girls, i'm quite puzzled to see girls bully around boys... :)

The problem is definately not gender-related.
Sorry if i caused offense to anyone.

The problem is in relationships, i'm not sure how to handle it not to have anyone hurt/angry. I can't simply kill lady psycho every single session (as likely consequence of her own actions) till she get frustrated enough to leave. It would mean the leaving of her boyfriend too, I suppose...

Vuzzmop
2009-05-22, 04:20 AM
The fact that they're girls is irrelevant. Problem players happen at any table.

I would suggest talking to the first player, the one with the orc character. Inform her that she's alienating the other members of the group. Roleplaying a gruff, pushy orc is one thing, but it's another to be a bully.

As for the Chaotic Stupid player ... man, I don't know. I've dealt with those players before, and the only thing I can suggest is booting her. Or, again, maybe talk to her. If she's screwing with the game, she probably doesn't even like it.

If nothing else, throw your hands up in the air and say "I quit." Maybe one of the girls will take over DM duties.

Why is the fact that they are female irrelevant? The situation is made more complicated by having two other players (DM included) romantically intangled with the causes of the problem.
Bad things happen to chaotic stupid people. Talk to them briefly about how fracking annoying their behaviour is, and when they pack a sad and continue their behaviour (which they almost certainly will), see them punished in the same way they would be in real life situations.
As for the bully, explain to her that the point is not to act exactly as her character would do with no consideration of the characters around her, but rather to rationalise more agreeable behaviour through the lense of that character. For example, a Neutral Evil character may share items and gold with her good aligned team-mates, her rationality being that she is better off with them as allies against a shared threat than as enemies.
Anyway, here's 2cp. Use it wisely.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-22, 04:21 AM
I was thinking more about domestic arguements rather then game-based arguements as far as using FATAL went. Also, converting the whole game to FATAL sounds bad for everyone else (playing it with just the players who were causing trouble would get round that problem, though).

shadzar
2009-05-22, 05:07 AM
Sex is not a carrot to dangle in front of someone else or to threaten to take away to get your way.

Let the boyfriends start showing les interest in them in game and it will hsake something up.

if they lose the girl, then probably better for them, if they are just in the game to screw it up to get the BF to quit to spend more time with them.

I have seen this often, and ban relationship from my table. Both players have to leave the game until they can come back as individual plauyers and NOT a couple.

D&D is not the dating game. Leave all that outside of the game.

Otherwise treat any disruptive player as such.

Also talk to the party (guys) and see about a party pool for treasure.

Any treasure collected is gathered is collected in the party pool, and divided when back in town.

If the person to carry it happens to be one of the girls, and they get to town and don't want to split the pool with the rest of the party, then the party can just leave that character in town and go off without them.

There is no excuse for disruptive players. The attitude of the characters should have been discussed before the game started. This would make sure that any one player would not disrupt the rest with a playing style contrary to the group.

It just seems like the same old problem of mated pairs joining a game to be close to the significant other at the cost of everyone else to get attention.

Not a healthy relationship for the couples, or the game group.

Serpentine
2009-05-22, 05:16 AM
Why is the fact that they are female irrelevant? The situation is made more complicated by having two other players (DM included) romantically intangled with the causes of the problem.If it had been the boyfriends causing the problem, the problem would be exactly the same. Yes, the relationships make it more tangled, but which member of the relationship is causing the problem has nothing to do with it.

Vuzzmop
2009-05-22, 05:27 AM
If it had been the boyfriends causing the problem, the problem would be exactly the same. Yes, the relationships make it more tangled, but which member of the relationship is causing the problem has nothing to do with it.

And your point is? We're arguing over something so trivial. The person who started the thread was simply creating a mental image for us; the two players creating the problems share one defining characteristic, and that happens to be dual X chromosomes.

Serpentine
2009-05-22, 05:29 AM
My point is simply that the person you contradicted was correct, the number and type of their chromosomes is irrelevant.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-22, 06:03 AM
i find it interesting that the OP feels the need to point out the players are girls when the problem is clearly not a gender one.

Seriously. We've seen these exact same complaints ("I'm an ass because I'm roleplaying my character!" and Chaotic Stupid) a million times without specific reference to gender (not counting your silly English gendered pronouns and possessives).

For players behaving badly, a talking-to. For players who don't get it, a swift kick in the ass in the direction of the door. If you can't get a friend (or a girlfriend or a boyfriend) to respect you and the other players enough to not be an ass, they're not much of a (girl-, boy-)friend to begin with, are they?

And yes, you've got a responsibility to sort this out, because it's negatively affecting the enjoyment of the majority of your group.


that's like a black guy taking a liking to minstrel shows.

That's a bit of an inaccurate analogy (especially considering FATAL is more racially offensive than minstrel shows). It's more like a woman liking a game where her gender is portrayed as only being fit to be raped (an activity which is encouraged on practically every page).


If it had been the boyfriends causing the problem, the problem would be exactly the same. Yes, the relationships make it more tangled, but which member of the relationship is causing the problem has nothing to do with it.

Critical analysis, not an excuse: Because in a patriarchal society, male is the default (especially for men).

Talic
2009-05-22, 06:33 AM
Ideally, try to get them a bit away from the "slave to the character" justification.

It's a cop out. "I'm not doing it, I agree with you, but see? That orc in the game? Yeah, she's having none of that."

No. Players control their characters. Players should know that the number one goal of anyone going to a game is to have fun. Tell them they're detracting from the game, and other players are actually actively not having fun.

Then try to find a middle ground, one that expresses creativity while giving them opportunities to shine.

For example, ask your GF to help you. Tell her you want to get the party more involved, and, if she'll cooperate, you can give the character a reason to share the wealth, without forcing her to lose the bully attitude.

Then proceed to work and engineer a situation where the orc is in a supremely dangerous situation... One that she'd be ok in, provided another character had a magic item that she has. Let the party be tense too. Put them in a bit of danger... But they, a team, have the means to bail each other out first... and get the items back... THEN the orc gets rescued.

Triaxx
2009-05-22, 07:02 AM
Find out if the other players are having fun. If they aren't then TPK. And point out that if the new character is identical to the original, so will the TPK be.

Simple, direct, and if the player causes a problem, don't let them come back.

DeathQuaker
2009-05-22, 07:06 AM
Agree wholeheartedly with the masses of people who suggest a talking to outside of game. Even if you've talked to them before, make it clear that
- this is unacceptable behavior
- that no one is having fun (I doubt even they are having fun)
- that you will try to keep going, but you WILL have realistic in-game consequences to their actions--choose to play a jerk and the world will react as it tends to do to jerks. (But DON'T bring in those consequences UNTIL you've told them this and explained to them why this might happen. Just dropping negative consequences on them without explanation, or not explaining until they're upset, will just make them assume you're persecuting them for no reason.)
- That the game will end if they are unable to change their behavior.

If you have a healthy relationship with your girlfriend, she will care about your feelings and listen to you. She will not bully you or manipulate you. She may disagree, but she will listen and try to see your side of things. You should be able to come to compromises. If she is consistently disregarding the time you put into her or into gaming or into anything you do together, then she is being disrespectful and mean, and you have a much bigger problem on your hands than a difficult roleplay style.

I've noticed with a few rare exceptions, GMs just should not run games with their SOs as players. Either favoritism occurs even if subconsciously, or other problems arise. IMHO, it's fine to play together as players with someone else GMing, but don't put one or the other in a position of "authority" in a social setting (which is what D&D is, geeky though it may be).

Fitz10019
2009-05-22, 07:29 AM
Can you get these two to piss each other off? When one of them complains about the other, the whole thing can be dealt with. Arguments resolve more easily when both parties are in the wrong. Instead of pitting nice players v. jerky players, get the jerks to square of against each other.

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-22, 07:34 AM
Can you get these two to piss each other off?

This is a recipe for destruction (and even this thing it's not related to XX or XY chromosomes).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-22, 07:51 AM
Find out if the other players are having fun. If they aren't then TPK. And point out that if the new character is identical to the original, so will the TPK be.

Simple, direct, and if the player causes a problem, don't let them come back.

You know that stands for "Total Party Kill", right?

Epinephrine
2009-05-22, 07:58 AM
You know that stands for "Total Party Kill", right?

I thought is was thiamin pyrophosphokinase...

DeathQuaker
2009-05-22, 07:59 AM
Find out if the other players are having fun. If they aren't then TPK. And point out that if the new character is identical to the original, so will the TPK be.

Simple, direct, and if the player causes a problem, don't let them come back.

"Simple, direct?" Uh, try "nasty and passive-aggressive." And as with all passive-aggression, insanely easy to misinterpret in the worst way possible. The problem players (who tend to be unaware of the problems they cause, at least to some degree) are far more likely to assume in that event the GM is just being a power-control-freak jerk than doing anything in relation to their behavior.

Plus the nice players, even if they agree to it (which seems unlikely), will be out a game.


Can you get these two to piss each other off? When one of them complains about the other, the whole thing can be dealt with. Arguments resolve more easily when both parties are in the wrong. Instead of pitting nice players v. jerky players, get the jerks to square of against each other.

Then the nice players get to watch the jerk players bicker with each other the whole session. No.

What do people have against direct communication and actual problem solving? What is it with the vengeance and answer jerk-comebacks with more jerk-comebacks? Wouldn't that instead validate that behaving like a jerk is the only way to handle gameplay?

Charity
2009-05-22, 09:45 AM
Oo another thread that can be answered in 5 words.
I like these


Talk to them about it.

I understand some of you guys are quite young and not 'socially agile' but the easiest way to deal with any (but the most extreme) conflict is to talk openly and honestly with those involved.

Mobey_Wee
2009-05-22, 10:18 AM
I would just like to point out, that OP did talk to the players, and said it didn't work out. So other options, such as in character reactions, have been presented.

edit: and yes, talking should probably work, but yeah...

Roderick_BR
2009-05-22, 10:31 AM
[apologies in advance]

Tell them you've got a new game for them that, judging by the way they behave, is right up their alley.

FATAL. Don't tell them ANYTHING about it it ahead of time.

When they complain, tell them that if they behave, they can go back to a game that doesn't suck. Or D&D - their choice.
Maybe Paranoia would be better. At least they try to be funny in it.
Or Shadowrun/Cyberpunk, where selling your teammates is profitable.

Another_Poet
2009-05-22, 10:34 AM
It seems like most people are either suggesting an OoC approach (talking to them) or an IC consequence approach.

PUT THOSE HANDS TOGETHER BABY!

Give them the gentle, OoC pre-game talk (again). THEN put some teeth in it by saying, "If you really believe that's how your characters would act, then go ahead, but next time you do something bad to a teammate I'll have to change your alignment to evil. I don't allow evil characters in my games so then you will have to roll up a new character."

At least one of them will test you on it. Next time they steal loot or attack a PC, hand them a blank sheet and tell them they need to roll new stats. For your own sanity, preferably do this first to the one who's NOT your girlfriend :)

Anyway, she'll either stop playing, or roll a character and be a team player, or roll a paladin and find a new way to annoy everybody but at least not kill her own teammates.

Any of those three outcomes solves the problem at your gaming table. And once you do it to one of them, the other will probably shape up on her own.

ap

RebelRogue
2009-05-22, 12:24 PM
As for the Chaotic Stupid player ... man, I don't know. I've dealt with those players before, and the only thing I can suggest is booting her. Or, again, maybe talk to her. If she's screwing with the game, she probably doesn't even like it.
The problem is, that it's not the only thing she's screwing with! :smallwink:

(Sorry, I know that was horrible, but I had to :smallbiggrin: )

grautry
2009-05-22, 01:07 PM
As far as "But I'm roleplaying my character!" excuse for douchebaggery goes, just direct them to this (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html) article.

Besides that, just talk to them like you would to any other person. Say that their play is disruptive and it's simply not fun for other players and RPGs are all about the fun of EVERYONE at the table. If they're adults, then they should listen.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-22, 01:50 PM
I would just like to point out, that OP did talk to the players, and said it didn't work out. So other options, such as in character reactions, have been presented.

edit: and yes, talking should probably work, but yeah...
This is why I, at least, emphasized that the OP needs to have a conversation with his girlfriend. "Talking to" someone can be terribly one-sided; if you engage someone in a conversation then either you find out they refuse to talk about the topic (a red flag to be sure) or they will tell you their side of the story - which helps you understand their position.

Very rarely does talking with a player about problematic behavior fail to resolve an issue. If they refuse to engage, you either have to boot them or shut down the game; otherwise you find some traction and can work the issue out.

jguy
2009-05-22, 02:46 PM
This happened to me once. It was back when me (and my character) were constantly picked on and threatened by my group. The female of the group was playing a psion and constantly saying how we all had to treat her nice and give her all the good stuff or she'd nuke us.

My dude is a cleric of Hoar and didn't appreciate the threats. I ended up putting a Mark of Justice on her in her sleep with the condition she goes into epileptic seizures if she makes any aggressive acts against us with intent to harm. DM allowed it but had to reverse it since she hadn't technically done anything yet and my god wouldn't allow it. She, along with my group, found out about it and have backed off considerably. It doesn't pay to piss of the little hafling cleric of vengeance while we quest in the Plane of Shadows.

Narmoth
2009-05-22, 02:50 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but I think I have, well not a solution, but at least ideas:
1. The orc player: Come up with examples of how she could play a different kind of orc. A more nuanced orc. Try goblins and dominic deegan for inspiration.

2. Consequences of player stupidity should hurt him/her most. So, set up traps for her to trigger that will nearly kill, or kill her character, not other characters who did nothing wrong and could do nothing about it.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-22, 04:06 PM
To eximplify why "I'm just roleplaying my character" isn't necessarily a valid excuse:

If you make a very honest character and she comes into conflict with the party because they want to lie to someone, that conflict might be an unforeseen consequence of your character's personality. You came up with this seemingly viable character concept and now you don't want to be forced to compromise it to make everyone else happy. You're not just being a jerk.

If you make a jerk character who beats up and steals from his own teammates, he'll come into conflict with the rest of the party as a foreseeable consequence of his personality. The problem isn't a surprise, it's something you created by making your character like this. You decided to play a character who would clearly be disruptive, and now you're not willing to stop doing that to make the other players happy. You're pretty much just being a jerk.

"My character's personality is responsible for this, not me" doesn't make sense because you're the one responsible for your character's personality. And some choices of personality are plainly jerk choices. In those cases, conflict caused by your character's personality isn't an accident; it's your fault.

It's probably best just to have PCs and NPCs respond realistically to disruptive characters from the get-go. If you pull your punches, that can just make the problem player upset when you change your approach later, because she thinks that you've made a metagame decision to start opposing her. And she's right, you have! Explaining that you're just reversing an earlier metagame decision probably will not make her content. Best not to tolerate bad behavior in the first place.


The problem is in relationships, i'm not sure how to handle it not to have anyone hurt/angry.
Well, are people already upset with the way things are now?

Would dealing with this at least move things to jerks being upset because they refuse to stop being jerks?

Because that seems like it might be an improvement.


I can't simply kill lady psycho every single session (as likely consequence of her own actions) till she get frustrated enough to leave.
Well, the idea is that she learns to play a more reasonable character. If she refuses to learn that, then maybe you're better off with her leaving.


What do people have against direct communication and actual problem solving? What is it with the vengeance and answer jerk-comebacks with more jerk-comebacks? Wouldn't that instead validate that behaving like a jerk is the only way to handle gameplay?
I wish to express my agreement with this sentiment.

"Actually solve the problem" is a different goal from "get back at the other person". Now, the latter isn't inherently bad; it could be part of a fun little prank war or something if no one involved takes it too seriously. But prompting the other person to get back at you is pretty much the opposite of what you should do if your goal is to eliminate conflict.

Edit:
Maybe Paranoia would be better. At least they try to be funny in it.
Or Shadowrun/Cyberpunk, where selling your teammates is profitable.
You know, this could actually be a good idea. If two of the players want to be able to screw over their teammates, maybe the solution is to run a game where that's acceptable or even expected. An evil D&D campaign could work too. Then the other players at least would feel like they're allowed to get back at the problem players. (They really should feel that way anyway, but maybe they're just too nice. Or too afraid of pissing off their girlfriend / the DM.)

The "Chaotic Stupid" character actually sounds more Stupid Evil (doing evil things at every opportunity without regard for the consequences) than Chaotic Stupid (doing random things all the time without regard for the consequences).

Mobey_Wee
2009-05-22, 04:40 PM
Ok then, talk with your player, not to your player... if that really needs to be clarified, which I don't think it does.


It seems like most people are either suggesting an OoC approach (talking to them) or an IC consequence approach.

PUT THOSE HANDS TOGETHER BABY!

Give them the gentle, OoC pre-game talk (again). THEN put some teeth in it by saying, "If you really believe that's how your characters would act, then go ahead, but next time you do something bad to a teammate I'll have to change your alignment to evil. I don't allow evil characters in my games so then you will have to roll up a new character."

At least one of them will test you on it. Next time they steal loot or attack a PC, hand them a blank sheet and tell them they need to roll new stats. For your own sanity, preferably do this first to the one who's NOT your girlfriend :)

Anyway, she'll either stop playing, or roll a character and be a team player, or roll a paladin and find a new way to annoy everybody but at least not kill her own teammates.

Any of those three outcomes solves the problem at your gaming table. And once you do it to one of them, the other will probably shape up on her own.

ap

I think this is the most reasonable approach, assuming the guy wants to keep his girlfriend, and the game. Besides banning evil, just having the other characters react how they should.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-22, 04:48 PM
Devils_Advocate is a wise person and speaks sense about player responsibility.

Every player has to understand what the game is about, and play the game with the others, not against or despite them. If the game calls for team players, be - and create - a team player. (Not that you can't create a character who isn't a team player, yet still manage to not upset or hinder the team. It just takes good awareness of the separation of the game and of the story.)


I also wouldn't recommend Shadowrun or Cyberpunk for screwing with other players; PCs in those games have even less reason to tolerate anyone going off the resevation. I think WW's Vampire may work a little better? Amber might be the best, since players are playing against each other right from the start of character creation, as I recall.

Not that that solves anything; it's an evasion, and letting the problem people control you. Not good.

Triaxx
2009-05-22, 06:25 PM
I'm aware what it stands for. I'm also aware that any talking to or with will result in: 'It's the character not me.' So to get out of that, you have to eliminate the character.

It might be passive-aggressive, but only until it's explained why it was done, in as clear and concise as possible.

The only other option is to simply stop playing period and refuse to play with them.

EndlessWrath
2009-05-22, 07:12 PM
I have a similar problem in 2 of the 3 games i'm in. (we're all one big group, 3 different systems).

In our Naruto D20 group, a group of players of the 19th level and higher have basically made themselves god mode and are taking over all countries just cause they want to. They're also making it Player Vs. Player... so they're disabling all party members and cu det grat.

Alternatively, the other game, they're purposely trying to end the world and take fights from anything. all members on 1 side are CE, while the others are NG. they've not only bullied our team (outside of game), but also are taking time from us for the DM. (distractions, making him drive away during one of our meetings. etc.). While i don't mind Player Vs Player, i find this lack of Sportsmanship distressing. I've talked to the guys and its ok for now, but the DM of the second game had to stop running for a bit and revamp (giving our team a little better of an advantage... 6v3 does that sometimes =/)

in the naruto game though, the dm has to change the entire storyline... and I had to FORCE myself to be more important and story changing. Instead of rolling with the punches, i've started throwing punches of my own. I don't suggest this.
-------------------
If your the DM, Talk to the players, tell them its not that kind of game... and very importantly...that the point of the game is to be fun to everybody... Split magic items up? give them a taste of their own medicine? etc. Don't be overly done, but maybe change the next magic item to a cursed item if they want to take it. Or Have Disjunction ready? Non-orc weapons? like.. orcs-bane that deals dmg and penalizes orcs from wielding? I only suggest this as a last resort to "teach a lesson" I do not suggest direct confrontation, but sometimes the DM needs his 10000d12 Purple lightning bolt. :smalleek:

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-23, 05:03 AM
I'm aware what it stands for. I'm also aware that any talking to or with will result in: 'It's the character not me.' So to get out of that, you have to eliminate the character.

It might be passive-aggressive, but only until it's explained why it was done, in as clear and concise as possible.

The only other option is to simply stop playing period and refuse to play with them.

It's still idiotic. Punishing the other players because they're already suffering from two problem players?

OOC problems are always dealt with OOC. If the players do not respond to talking, they should be kicked out of the group. It's as simple as that.

Hawriel
2009-05-23, 05:25 AM
+1

As Saph would say:

Rule 1: No Douchebaggery
Rule 2: See Rule 1


Damn thats a hard one. On of my friends is playing a character named Sir Bagga Douche. He is also a halfing with little man sindrome.

Damn dude Yokoed in stareo!! :smalleek:

Ah the double standerd gender trap. If they where guys it would be alot easyer for you as the GM to curb stomp their characters, or let the other players do it. I say imbrase equality and do it :smallamused:.

However it should be within the game. If the bully is 'in character' a jerk. Let the other players respond in character. Let the party sell her into slavery. Sell her out to the local militia. Kill her in her sleep. Walk away when she gets in over her head. Steel her stuff and pawn if for lotto tickets. what ever. Im not saying star a war, the accasional fire fights are ok. Just make the problem players see that there are consiquences to their actions. Whether its from the other players, NPCs or enviornment.

pasko77
2009-05-23, 11:52 AM
Thanks to everybody for the answers.
I'll try the pre-game dialog approach.
With my girlfriend (i think) it worked.
Now i need to deal with lady psycho, next session.

Thanks again, Pasko

ShadowFighter15
2009-05-24, 03:46 AM
Might I suggest you wear a box when you do (a cup in-case you're American).