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View Full Version : So let's say...[3.5 Epic]



SillyBee
2009-05-22, 10:53 AM
...you wanted to setup/play/run an Epic level game. The group you are playing with is not necessarily a group of optimizers, but they aren't slow to learn either.

The house rules that have so far been agreed upon are:

-Core plus PHB2,DMG2,Epic Level Handbook
-Druid from PHB2 is only one allowed
-No Gate perpetuity strategies
-No Epic spell creation

What types of characters would you foresee being created? Let's assume these are all typical people from your regular experiences.

Would this still allow for the fun of Epic without hamstringing anyone?

Would any of the typical Epic level encounters be too much for a group adhering to these guidelines?

Thanks for the assistance.
SB

The Glyphstone
2009-05-22, 10:56 AM
Without the Completes, you're deeply crippling melee ability to keep up at high levels, core melee simply doesn't have the damage output a core caster would. Even rogues are downright worthless without the various ways to bypass Sneak Attack Immunity available in splatbooks when practically everything is SA-proof in Epic.

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-22, 11:08 AM
Without the Completes, you're deeply crippling melee ability to keep up at high levels, core melee simply doesn't have the damage output a core caster would. Even rogues are downright worthless without the various ways to bypass Sneak Attack Immunity available in splatbooks when practically everything is SA-proof in Epic.

Second this. Be more "open" with meleers, or the only way to drop quickly and enemy will be Overwhelming Critical.

Optimystik
2009-05-22, 11:13 AM
Thirding the addition of Completes - not just to save your melee, but to make the game a lot more fun with the PrCs and feats in each.

SillyBee
2009-05-22, 11:23 AM
However, would we not also see an upper scale for casters as well? That is the primary reason for the limitation of books.

Within those books, is there a specific house rule that could be applied or created in order to assist melee classes a bit better? Something like have the weapon focus/specialization feats give increment increases per level or the like? I am just somewhat loathe to broaden the perspective so much. As I said, the group is somewhat new to the game, but are catching on very quickly, so I don't really want to see Incantatrix or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or the like. As well as outside spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-22, 11:34 AM
However, would we not also see an upper scale for casters as well? That is the primary reason for the limitation of books.Core melee has nothing on the power of core casting. If you want balance, introduce either ToB or CWar and CS. It won't be balanced, but it will help.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-22, 11:40 AM
ToB alone would do wonders for increasing melee potency.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-22, 12:06 PM
It's not just the Complete series. For instance, Rogues are pretty much dead at Epic levels without Penetrating Strike (from Dungeonscape), weapon augment crystals (from Magic Item Compendium), sneak attack enabling spells (Spell Compendium) and the rule about swift casting from wands (from Rules Compendium), and Craven feat (from Champions of Ruin).

Penetrating Strike deals 1/2 sneak attack damage to enemies normally immune when you flank them.

The Greater Truedeath and Greater Demolition weapon augment crystals let you do full sneak attack damage to undead and constructs, respectively.

The spells Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike let you do normal sneak attack damage against undead, constructs, and plants, respectively. But these are all swift action spells with only 1 round duration. If you use wands with the core rules these spells take a standard action to trigger, meaning you can't attack in the same round; these wands are useless. Rules Compendium changed the trigger time to be the same as the normal casting time -- a swift action -- meaning Use Magic Device with these wands allows full attacks with sneak attack damage.

Craven adds 1 point of damage per character level to sneak attacks, pulling the Rogue's damage potential up near that of Fighters with Power Attack. And this bonus damage isn't from dice, so it gets multiplied on critical sneaks.

That's a real example from my experience playing Rogues who can hold their own at high levels. Other martial types benefit similarly from having more books available. As an example, core Monks are very weak -- but the unarmed Swordsage variant (Tome of Battle) is a reasonable replacement.

Core full spellcasting classes are plenty powerful. Core martial classes are relatively weak. At Epic levels there's just no comparison.

Now, I don't think it would be fair to allow the necessary books for martial types and disallow them for spellcasters. But I think you can allow most books and still keep spellcasters from dominating everything.
Ban Epic spells; they're just unworkable. You've done this already.
Assume spellcasters will have lots of ongoing spells, such as from the Persistent Spell feat. The enemies should be cranking out Greater Dispel Magic and similar spells to take care of this problem. They wouldn't have become Epic enemies otherwise.
Most spells have verbal components. Silence is golden for enemies who don't need to make noise.
Anything that can grant a Wish is going to twist the results. Guaranteed. And Gate will only bring in creatures that have already exhausted their daily Wish ability.
No Nightsticks are available. They just aren't sold.
Ditto for Thought Bottles.
Run a very tight ship regarding custom magic items.
Magical flight can be very dangerous to PCs. Flying grapplers and high-level Favored Souls casting Antimagic Field can take down spellcasters pretty easily. All the Favored Soul has to do is fly 10' above the spellcaster and cast Antimagic Field, then furl wings. Both the FS and the enemy spellcaster will drop at the same rate, maintaining the 10' separation on the magic-free descent. Except the Favored Soul can open wings and fly away when the other spellcaster goes splat.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-22, 12:12 PM
As I said, the group is somewhat new to the game, but are catching on very quickly, so I don't really want to see Incantatrix or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or the like. As well as outside spells.

If nobody has leveled a character to or near 20 by playing rather than starting at that level, then you shouldn't throw them into the epic levels so soon. IMO someone should play every character level from 1-20, not necessarily on the same character but at least level through each of those levels in a group and see how their own and the other characters are played at each level, before they should even consider playing an epic level game.

Anyone who plays a class that can get 9th level spells should stay restricted to your list of books, but anyone who doesn't have levels in a class that can eventually get 9th level spells should be able to use the Completes. Even if a character doesn't have 9th level spells yet, if they'll eventually be able to get 9th level spells via one of their classes then they can't use the Completes. Allowing the Tome of Battle (but not the prestige classes in it that advance spellcasting) would also help out the nonspellcasters considerably.

Majuba
2009-05-22, 12:44 PM
The house rules that have so far been agreed upon are:

-Core plus PHB2,DMG2,Epic Level Handbook
-Druid from PHB2 is only one allowed
-No Gate perpetuity strategies
-No Epic spell creation

Would this still allow for the fun of Epic without hamstringing anyone?

I ran epic through 31st level - the Fighter types (melee and ranged) - and everyone else - does just fine *without* PHB2 or DMG2. The gear available to an epic level character is more than enough to overcome any inherent limitations.

In My Experience, at least.

lsfreak
2009-05-22, 03:16 PM
Casters are utterly overpowered with core-only, while melee are utterly gimped. Throw in splatbooks - Completes plus ToB - and you boost melee up to being much more acceptable, while making casters marginally more powerful. But what does it matter, casters are world-shatteringly broken with just Core anyways, so give them a little more power in exchange for making melee playable.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-05-22, 06:08 PM
The problem with noncore stuff, especially ToB, is that there's little/no support for it in epic play. Not that there's anything wrong with homebrewing, but epic homebrewing requires even more attention than regular homebrewing. At one point I wrote up a set of epic rules to completely replace the ELH, but I agree with others; if these are new players I don't think epic is worth it. If you want a high level experience, 11th level might be a better idea.