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Epinephrine
2009-05-22, 03:09 PM
How do you reveal "surface thoughts" to a player using detect thoughts? Have you had issues with players using this spell?

Clearly, surface thoughts are those that are most current, most present - but they seem easy to manipulate. After all, by asking questions you get certain thoughts to become most pressing. Can you give me some examples of how you use it?

As an example from my game, someone locked behind bars is begging the PCs to let him out, but he plans to attack them when he gets free. A PC goes to unlock the door, but another PC is detecting the prisoner's thoughts (she had gone out of the room, cast the spell out of earshot, and wandered back in maintaining concentration, while the prisoner fails his will save against the spell, so is oblivious). He has a blade hidden under his mattress, and I figure that's probably what's on his mind, so I tell the player that his current jumble of thoughts is something like, "hurry up... hurry up, I want to kill you. I think I'd best take the dwarf first, he's the biggest threat. That's right, smile at me you stupid git, you'll taste my blade soon enough. "

Too much? Is that about right? It's the main thing occupying him, he's thinking about how to grab his blade and attack as soon as the door opens.

In another situation, the party were interrogating people, and they suspected one of them was a shapechanger - so one by one, they brought them into the room and questionned them - starting with, "ok XXXX, we know you're the shapechanger, you may as well confess."

It seems pretty obvious that most who aren't guilty will have a thought that gives away their lack of guilt, like "What? What on earth is he talking about?? ", while the shapechanger will likely think something like "he's bluffing. They can't possibly know, this disguise is perfect. Lie to them, you can bluff your way out of this..."

Again, I don't know about how other DMs might handle it, but it seems like it would be hard not to have your surface thoughts jump to the issue presented to you.

Maybe I'm allowing too much from it, but it seems like a very potent for a 2nd level spell.

Belobog
2009-05-22, 03:38 PM
How do you reveal "surface thoughts" to a player using detect thoughts? Have you had issues with players using this spell?

Clearly, surface thoughts are those that are most current, most present - but they seem easy to manipulate. After all, by asking questions you get certain thoughts to become most pressing. Can you give me some examples of how you use it?

As an example from my game, someone locked behind bars is begging the PCs to let him out, but he plans to attack them when he gets free. A PC goes to unlock the door, but another PC is detecting the prisoner's thoughts (she had gone out of the room, cast the spell out of earshot, and wandered back in maintaining concentration, while the prisoner fails his will save against the spell, so is oblivious). He has a blade hidden under his mattress, and I figure that's probably what's on his mind, so I tell the player that his current jumble of thoughts is something like, "hurry up... hurry up, I want to kill you. I think I'd best take the dwarf first, he's the biggest threat. That's right, smile at me you stupid git, you'll taste my blade soon enough. "

Too much? Is that about right? It's the main thing occupying him, he's thinking about how to grab his blade and attack as soon as the door opens.

In another situation, the party were interrogating people, and they suspected one of them was a shapechanger - so one by one, they brought them into the room and questionned them - starting with, "ok XXXX, we know you're the shapechanger, you may as well confess."

It seems pretty obvious that most who aren't guilty will have a thought that gives away their lack of guilt, like "What? What on earth is he talking about?? ", while the shapechanger will likely think something like "he's bluffing. They can't possibly know, this disguise is perfect. Lie to them, you can bluff your way out of this..."

Again, I don't know about how other DMs might handle it, but it seems like it would be hard not to have your surface thoughts jump to the issue presented to you.

Maybe I'm allowing too much from it, but it seems like a very potent for a 2nd level spell.

It seems like you're playing it pretty much by the book; the only thoughts the players are getting are thoughts that are in the moment. There are a number of defenses against this spell, though, Mindblank being the first that comes to mind, and even a defense that's built into the spell itself (25+ Int creatures cannot have their thoughts read, I think it was). For the situations you've described, yes, it was helpful, but it's not like it's an infallible or unblockable spell.

Doug Lampert
2009-05-22, 03:38 PM
Maybe I'm allowing too much from it, but it seems like a very potent for a 2nd level spell.

I think you are making it a bit too powerful. Most of the time when talking you'll be thinking about what you're saying, not what you plan to do. Thus while someone is actually speaking I'd tend to almost always just give the words.

Similarly, if you are any good AT ALL at bluffing you DON'T think "How'd he know" or even "He couldn't possibly know" when someone seems to call you on it, that sort of thing delaying you is why some people act off when hit by that sort of question. A good liar/bluffer will have his story straight in his own mind and will be mentally "role playing" someone for whom that story is true.

All that said it is still a VERY powerful spell. The villain can't always avoid thinking about what he's actually doing, and combined with Zone of Truth and it's a killer since the character KNOWS if he succeeds at a save vs. the Zone (throw in a detect magic also and its essentially unbeatable in core, spells that hide auras only work on objects so if there's a spell or supernatural ability letting someone lie you'll detect it and the school).