ARGH! How do I deal with my players?!

[Meirnon]

I DM for my friends, mostly by request cause I'm the best one out of us. In fact I'm creating a world for use. Think you could help? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112229, yeah, I know, I'm terrible with plugging myself. Anyways, I'm really having problems with a couple of my players.

First off, I want you to know that these guys are my best friends, and as much as I'm annoyed by them, I'd have a hard heart to actually do anything drastic about it. My current players are...

Will- He's the one that causes the most problems. He constantly makes characters designed to derail the campaign and cheats. Him being a DM is even worse, but that's a thing for later.
Jake- He's the other one that's causing the problems. He doesn't actively do anything bad normally, but constantly reinforces Will. I give him credit for attempting to keep practical characters and RPing, though.
Tyler- He has little ability to RP, but otherwise he's doing fine.
Eric- Probably the best one in the group when it comes to the keeping of order and stability in the campaign. I must say, excellent at RPing, although he's kind of bad at building optimized characters.
Sean- Terrible at RP, terrible at optimization, and terrible at keeping the game stability at an acceptable level. He's my little brother, though, and I love him. I only started to let him play cause my dad made me, but he's been getting better, and with some guidance he'll get good.

So... Will, like I said, constantly decides to derail the campaign. In my latest adventure, Eric admitted to me that Will and Jake have agreed to ruin it.
I have a number of grievances against Will, but openly trying to ruin the campaign is probably the worst.
So my question is, how do I deal with him (and probably Jake)? Currently, I have a couple players ready to replace them, both of them are new to the game, and eager to play. Is getting new players to replace them without them knowing the best option?

[DamnedIrishman]

So... Will, like I said, constantly decides to derail the campaign. In my latest adventure, Eric admitted to me that Will and Jake have agreed to ruin it.
I have a number of grievances against Will, but openly trying to ruin the campaign is probably the worst.
So my question is, how do I deal with him (and probably Jake)? Currently, I have a couple players ready to replace them, both of them are new to the game, and eager to play. Is getting new players to replace them without them knowing the best option?

Two possibilites with regards to Will and Jake: either they're not really interested in playing your campaign, in which case they shouldn't be playing it, or alternatively (and I mean no offense) they're being railroaded into a specific plot and they don't like that.

Assuming the first, I suggest you find new players.

[WeeFreeMen]

Well as far as best friends go..these guys seem to be lacking if they are openly admitant to ruining the groups fun..

As far as Crowd Controlling them, Your the DM, grab yourself a Notecard and a Sharpie, write in nice clear letters "DM" and then make copies. Load them into your hand and get ready to Smite Will/Jake with them :p

Also, what exactly are they Derailing your campaign with? Most often problems can be solved In-Game before out of game. Unless hes using Pun-Pun or some DMM Cheese, he shouldn't be a huge pain, and judging from the groups XP, It doesn't seem like you got Power-Gamers at your hands. What are they running?

As far as cheating goes. Nuts-2-That. Have them roll in the middle of the table/floor for all to see, get a Notecard with everyones AC/HP/Saves. This lets you judge encounters difficulty as well as keeping an eye on cheaters..lets say Mr. Will has a Fort Save of 4, and you hit him with a DC 25. He cant make it without a 20....so next time he say "I got a X" you can say that it isnt possible, (unless circumstance deem otherwise).

Before replacing them with new players, I suggest you try a In-game fix that way you can stay "Best-Friends" if all else fails, throw DM at them, if that fails explain to them alternate routes (Re-rolling characters, taking away over-powered items, etc). However, leave on good terms, ALWAYS.

Good luck.

[Meirnon]

Two possibilites with regards to Will and Jake: either they're not really interested in playing your campaign, in which case they shouldn't be playing it, or alternatively (and I mean no offense) they're being railroaded into a specific plot and they don't like that.

Assuming the first, I suggest you find new players.

No offense taken by the second one. Here's the situations...
Will and Jake are often quick to play, because while they do derail the campaign, they genuinely enjoy it. I'm the best DM out of us, and that's saying something seeing as how my best friend is the son of the best DM we've seen. My only lacking is I'm inexperienced, but have plenty of potential.

As for the whole "railroaded", that's not the case, either. I actually set up the adventure AFTER they made their characters and based it off their backstories. Further, I let them do pretty much WHATEVER they want in the world, but throw in elements to keep them on track. It works rather well, in fact. Or at least it would if they'd try not to mess it up. I'm not the only one who's annoyed by it, too. The best player, Eric, complains to me every session about Will and sometimes Jake.

Anyways, the complaints that Will and Jake have is that the campaign goes 'slowly'... which is because of their antics. I'm getting really peeved, and am seriously considering the new players. One is my Policy Debate Partner, and playing with him should help our teamwork enough (we're aiming for 1st in state next year, and we're clearly capable. Teams are actually afraid of us. XD), and the other is a good friend of ours who is clearly capable of great RP. The problem I'm having with that Idea is the fact that I won't be telling Will and Jake. They should at least deserve to know.

[Meirnon]

Well as far as best friends go..these guys seem to be lacking if they are openly admitant to ruining the groups fun..

As far as Crowd Controlling them, Your the DM, grab yourself a Notecard and a Sharpie, write in nice clear letters "DM" and then make copies. Load them into your hand and get ready to Smite Will/Jake with them :p

Also, what exactly are they Derailing your campaign with? Most often problems can be solved In-Game before out of game. Unless hes using Pun-Pun or some DMM Cheese, he shouldn't be a huge pain, and judging from the groups XP, It doesn't seem like you got Power-Gamers at your hands. What are they running?

As far as cheating goes. Nuts-2-That. Have them roll in the middle of the table/floor for all to see, get a Notecard with everyones AC/HP/Saves. This lets you judge encounters difficulty as well as keeping an eye on cheaters..lets say Mr. Will has a Fort Save of 4, and you hit him with a DC 25. He cant make it without a 20....so next time he say "I got a X" you can say that it isnt possible, (unless circumstance deem otherwise).

Before replacing them with new players, I suggest you try a In-game fix that way you can stay "Best-Friends" if all else fails, throw DM at them, if that fails explain to them alternate routes (Re-rolling characters, taking away over-powered items, etc). However, leave on good terms, ALWAYS.

Good luck.

Said grievances, sir, are as such...
-Will plays alignment conflicting characters. He says he's LG most of the time, but he constantly plays his characters like they're CE.
-Will fudges his rolls when I'm paying attention to other players.
-When Will played a cleric, he didn't keep track of his spells. I got rid of spontaneous casting because of him, and the other players are peeved.
-Will's in game RP creates MUCH difficulty for the party.
-Will cheats on his HP, often counting the HP down, then if he's about to die, counting that as his wounds.

As for Jake, he just encourages Will, and goes along with him.

I tried the notecards once... They don't help a whole lot cause i'd lose them after every session, so I'd run out. Never done it with conviction, though. I doubt it'd help, too.

[WeeFreeMen]

Said grievances, sir, are as such...
-Will plays alignment conflicting characters. He says he's LG most of the time, but he constantly plays his characters like they're CE.
-Will fudges his rolls when I'm paying attention to other players.
-When Will played a cleric, he didn't keep track of his spells. I got rid of spontaneous casting because of him, and the other players are peeved.
-Will's in game RP creates MUCH difficulty for the party.
-Will cheats on his HP, often counting the HP down, then if he's about to die, counting that as his wounds.

As for Jake, he just encourages Will, and goes along with him.

I tried the notecards once... They don't help a whole lot cause i'd lose them after every session, so I'd run out. Never done it with conviction, though. I doubt it'd help, too.

Okay then.

My advice.
Flat out tell him it is unacceptable for him to be doing this, as its unfair to the group as well as you. You can shift his alignment into CE,by whatever means he screws up. IE: Paladin knifing a noble in the face.

On a side note. I often let my players take what they deserve from their actions, as such a recent player of mine played a Corpse Factory Cleric (Summon/make lots and lots of undead). So..I endured this for awhile UNTIL it conflicted with the group and ITS interests. I slammed him with 2 LG Clerics and 1 LG Paladin sent to kill him, after all he was amassing a army of undead..

My point being, let them pay for being stupid, if he dies, he dies. I suggest keeping track of the cards or adding them into your DM notes/folder, they become infinitely useful.

Force him to roll when your looking, or even re roll if you didn't see it. That is completely fair, were as Johny might be rolling 10s in front of you Mr. Will is getting this miraculous 20's every time you blink. Not cool.

As far as Jake the Instigator, he too can pay.
Your the DM dude, its your world, you control it to the letter.

If his RP is creating problems for the group, give them a NPC diplomat to get THEM out of the situation, Will/Jake can perish.

Call me cynical, but I find stupidity funny until it becomes hindering.
Youll get the hang of it with some experience, but if it becomes to much of a headache, just throw em out and grab the newbies.

Some Ideas

-Sent a Justicator after him, they are THE law enforcement. (This is geared if he is doing something Evil)
-Send inevitable after him with the appropriate cause, IE: Have him sign something, but small print says..."No Shenanigans" or what have you.
-Good old fashioned Guest/Quest + Mark of Justice (Order of the Stick)
This lovely combo allows you to further your plot, and torture Will/Jake
-My personal favorite: Split them from the party, so all actions are accountable to them, and have them pay for it. Much like my Cleric/Paladin scenario, you can send anything at them, given a reason. (Inevitable for contracts, Justicator for law, Demons for tampering, Assassins because they RP'd badly and screwed up diplomatic plans.. I mean the sky is the limit man.

But that all being said, if you dont wanna DM fiat them to death, jsut DAS BOOT them :p

[Starbuck_II]

Said grievances, sir, are as such...
-Will plays alignment conflicting characters. He says he's LG most of the time, but he constantly plays his characters like they're CE.

Give a situation where this is the case.
Maybe it is an alignment arguement: sadly there are ways to count any alignment as any other if thought of in a certain way.

This is how people can view Captain Jack Sparrow as CG, NE, LN, CN, and LG (that one surprised me) on this board at same time (I favor CN fior him).


-When Will played a cleric, he didn't keep track of his spells. I got rid of spontaneous casting because of him, and the other players are peeved.

How does he mess that up? Why remove spontaneous casting: that he does'nt need to worry about preparing cure spells.



-Will cheats on his HP, often counting the HP down, then if he's about to die, counting that as his wounds.

That is bad.

[KillianHawkeye]

The problem I'm having with that Idea is the fact that I won't be telling Will and Jake. They should at least deserve to know.

So tell them. Don't be a jerk about it, and maybe everything will turn out for the best.

[Meirnon]

Thanks for the ideas, WeeFreeMan. While there are problems concerning their conceivability, I LOVE that you used the word "Fiat". I'm a debater, and you have no idea how many times using fiat has saved my arse. In fact, my partner and I's plan next year relies heavily on the fact of fiat. It's that the U.S. congress and president decide to De-Develop the United Sates to get rid of poverty. Our opponents say how, we say "Fiat".

Anyways, for you, Starbuck, Will does the alignment thing in more than one campaign. In fact, it's quite a Will thing to do.
In Ed's campaign (my best friend's dad), he plays a Ranger named Togg. We constantly joke about how-
1. If an enemy says it surrenders, Will gets an attack of opportunity.
2. That when questioning the enemies, not only does Will torture them, but when he finally gets them to cooperate, he kills them before they answer anything.

While these are a bit of exaggerations on the rules on attack of opportunities, the rest is actually true. Last I checked, also, (in the BoED) LG people are obligated to take prisoners when they surrender and are forbidden from torture. That's a rather small but exemplary example, and I'm sure you can understand why we joke about it. We've pretty much have had enough with the trouble it's causing for us RP wise, and even joking about it doesn't really help. >.>

[Glyphic]

At the heart, remember that this is a game. If you're not having fun playing it, something needs to change. Weather that something is your player's outlook, your players, your own outlook, ect. Don't do it if it's frustrating or not fun.

Open discourse is your best bet.

"Hey guys, I'm trying really hard to be a DM, and craft this game so it's fun for all of us. ______ is hurting my enjoyment of the game."

[WeeFreeMen]

Thanks for the ideas, WeeFreeMan. While there are problems concerning their conceivability, I LOVE that you used the word "Fiat". I'm a debater, and you have no idea how many times using fiat has saved my arse. In fact, my partner and I's plan next year relies heavily on the fact of fiat. It's that the U.S. congress and president decide to De-Develop the United Sates to get rid of poverty. Our opponents say how, we say "Fiat".

Anyways, for you, Starbuck, Will does the alignment thing in more than one campaign. In fact, it's quite a Will thing to do.
In Ed's campaign (my best friend's dad), he plays a Ranger named Togg. We constantly joke about how-
1. If an enemy says it surrenders, Will gets an attack of opportunity.
2. That when questioning the enemies, not only does Will torture them, but when he finally gets them to cooperate, he kills them before they answer anything.

While these are a bit of exaggerations on the rules on attack of opportunities, the rest is actually true. Last I checked, also, (in the BoED) LG people are obligated to take prisoners when they surrender and are forbidden from torture. That's a rather small but exemplary example, and I'm sure you can understand why we joke about it. We've pretty much have had enough with the trouble it's causing for us RP wise, and even joking about it doesn't really help. >.>

I'm not in the mood for a debate lol, but yeah, no problem on the advice.
The advice was more guideline based, I'm sure you can think of better, but good luck I'm out
(Ramens done :D)

[AslanCross]

Said grievances, sir, are as such...
-Will plays alignment conflicting characters. He says he's LG most of the time, but he constantly plays his characters like they're CE.
-Will fudges his rolls when I'm paying attention to other players.
-When Will played a cleric, he didn't keep track of his spells. I got rid of spontaneous casting because of him, and the other players are peeved.
-Will's in game RP creates MUCH difficulty for the party.
-Will cheats on his HP, often counting the HP down, then if he's about to die, counting that as his wounds.

As for Jake, he just encourages Will, and goes along with him.

I tried the notecards once... They don't help a whole lot cause i'd lose them after every session, so I'd run out. Never done it with conviction, though. I doubt it'd help, too.

First of all, talk to them outside the game. I've learned that saying "I'm the DM, follow me" at the table isn't an effective way to control aberrant players. Let him know that his behavior is wrecking the game and making it difficult for other players and yourself, and that tabletop RPGs are meant to be for the enjoyment of the entire group involved. Doing random stuff for chuckles at the expense of the party is a serious offense in my book, as I've seen my players fly into a screaming rage when this is done to them---thankfully it's only happened once.

As for specific problems:
1. Change his alignment--talk to him about this outside the game and come up with an agreement that will involve his alignment shifting due to his actions.

2. I always have my players roll on a tray in the open so that everyone sees it, and to avoid the dice falling on the floor or landing cocked. Might be a good idea to know their roll modifiers too, so that they can't lie to you.

3. I punish not keeping track of spells/maneuvers/psionic powers quite severely:
a. If you don't know what it does, you cast it but it does nothing. I will not look it up for you.
b. If you summon something you don't know the stats of, you don't really know what you're summoning, and your spell or scroll is wasted.
c. If you don't scratch off your spells after use, I scratch them off for you.

4. In-game RP? Such as being lewd, random, and otherwise offensive? Yeah, RPing isn't an excuse for being a jerk to other people.

5. I'm not familiar with the wound point system, but yeah---you keeping track of his HP will help. Whenever my PCs get damaged, I always tell them to sound off how much HP they had left, so I can scribble them down. Never had them cheating on me, though.

Again, it's best to talk to him about this (he's your friend anyway) and come to an agreement outside of the game instead of just shoving your new house rules in his face next session.

[Meirnon]

Thanks for the suggestions. Of course there are problems, but I'm sure I can overcome them. The biggest ones are, of course...
I don't see him much anymore besides at the gaming table. He's now a "theater kid" in our school, so he ignores his old friends (us). The Theater kids in our school are pretty much the generic preps you think of. They're not so much bully's, but they make up for that with obnoxiousness and acting like they're better than everybody else. *sigh*
Also, the plan I had for his spells was "no spontaneous casting and you have to pay for spell components". It worked for a little while, but then he just said "Eff this, i'm not keeping track of my money, either".

His In-game RP is lewd, offensive, and causes problems with NPC's alot. The biggest problem with punishing him In-Game is that he's usually able to overcome it. He powergames, for one, and for two, when he DOES follow the rules he's still overpowered. My favorite thing I did to his cleric was when only Eric, Tyler, and Sean were able to play, I killed his character and had the others sell his stuff to pay for the resurrection. That was entertaining. Of course, all he did was complain, and threatened to quit playing.

Will knows he's ruining it for the others, and that only makes it better for him. I'd explain in detail why I don't necessarily blame him for this cause his home life is rather crappy and his siblings do that to him so he thinks it's right, but that'd get a little too personal. My friends say I'm too forgiving alot, and generally I'm the most compassionate person out of all of us, although it's even getting on my nerves... or else I wouldn't've started this thread. I'd really like to talk it out with him, because I really do enjoy peace-making over outright punishment, although I wholly agree that the latter has it's place.

And finally to clear this up for you: He started counting his HP down from MAX, which is what we normally do. Then when he was about to take a blow that would drop him into the negatives, he reversed it, so that he was counting up the wounds/damage till they hit his HP. Hope I cleared that up...

Really, thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely put them into the campaign when the need arises. There's still alot to be solved about it, though...

[Gorbash]

From my experience as a DM (not too long, about a year and a half), I concluded that if you don't want players to cheat/fudge, you have to do it for yourself. That is:

Keep track of their character sheets - make online copies and just cross reference them once they level up. If you suspect they're cheating on HP, you have the original version.
Concerning HP cheating - this one's easy, don't let them keep track of HP, you do it.


-Will fudges his rolls when I'm paying attention to other players.

I use this method - the only roll that counts is the one that I'm observing, I almost never take the player's word for it, except on attack rolls, and even that only after I know their total AB.


-When Will played a cleric, he didn't keep track of his spells.

Whenever they prepare spells, ask them to write it down twice on a paper, take one for yourself, and keep track of it.

I know it's completely untrustworthy and maybe troublesome to keep track of all of that, but only that way will you avoid the situations where players cheat. It happens unintentionally to someone, but but you never know.

Point is, treat your players as unable to do anything by themselves, and you'll do fine.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Actually, "DM Fiat" is the standard term :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and here's my solution:

1. First, tell Will and Jake that you are going to start making them accountable for their IC actions if they do not stop.

2. Tell your other friends that you are going to do this, so that they dont think that you are being a jerk.

3. Alignment: If Will tries to roleplay an alignment different from whats written on his character sheet, do one of the following:
3.a. Remove his class features if he is playing that type of class.
3.b. Simply change his alignment.
3.c. Have a paladin use detect evil and attack him whenever he is being evil in a place where there might be paladins.
3.d. Dont let him choose his alighnment, choose it for him according to his actions.

4. Routinely check character sheets, noting basic stats.

5. If you catch him cheating on rolls, start sending addtional monsters that only attack him. The more he cheats, the more monsters there will be. You might want some of your other friends to help you here.

6. If he doesnt have it written down on his character sheet, he doesnt have it.

7. His ingame RP: If he acts in some manner, have the NPCs actually respond appropreately. If you want to, you could put some stuck up, overpowered, Paladin NPC in the party, ready to smite him with a sap whenever he is rude or crass.

8. ?????

9. Profit!

[Meirnon]

Heehee... Makes me glad I became a playgrounder. You guys are helpful.

As for the whole "Players incapable of doing anything" approach, I'd feel extremely uncomfortable doing that. Like I said, I'm the compassionate, empathetic & sympathetic one, although I'm tough on them if I have to be. I like the idea of a paladin smacking him over the head with a sap. It actually fits into my campaign setting. Yes I'm plugging it again... I'm shameless, but you guys are good at this and I need help... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112229

And for his RPing, I do make him punish for most of it. Nearly got his cleric character executed after he hit on and impregnated a noble woman at the most innapropriate of times. He bought his way out of it though, and the seeming drop in power for him was enough for me to bite on. Creating a new character would only cause more problems.

Anyways, the thing that I want to make clear is that Will is supremely stuck in his ways, and we're all extremely smart, so he'll find a way around that, too. There's a reason he was my debate partner our freshman year. I feel that above all else, I should replace him. Without him, though, I don't have any real way to reach Jake with any ease, and while Jake would be fine without Will, I wouldn't be able to contact him. >.>

I'm having real trouble when it not only comes to what I should do, but also real-world solutions and conceivability.

[Volkov]

I DM for my friends, mostly by request cause I'm the best one out of us. In fact I'm creating a world for use. Think you could help? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112229, yeah, I know, I'm terrible with plugging myself. Anyways, I'm really having problems with a couple of my players.

First off, I want you to know that these guys are my best friends, and as much as I'm annoyed by them, I'd have a hard heart to actually do anything drastic about it. My current players are...

Will- He's the one that causes the most problems. He constantly makes characters designed to derail the campaign and cheats. Him being a DM is even worse, but that's a thing for later.
Jake- He's the other one that's causing the problems. He doesn't actively do anything bad normally, but constantly reinforces Will. I give him credit for attempting to keep practical characters and RPing, though.
Tyler- He has little ability to RP, but otherwise he's doing fine.
Eric- Probably the best one in the group when it comes to the keeping of order and stability in the campaign. I must say, excellent at RPing, although he's kind of bad at building optimized characters.
Sean- Terrible at RP, terrible at optimization, and terrible at keeping the game stability at an acceptable level. He's my little brother, though, and I love him. I only started to let him play cause my dad made me, but he's been getting better, and with some guidance he'll get good.

So... Will, like I said, constantly decides to derail the campaign. In my latest adventure, Eric admitted to me that Will and Jake have agreed to ruin it.
I have a number of grievances against Will, but openly trying to ruin the campaign is probably the worst.
So my question is, how do I deal with him (and probably Jake)? Currently, I have a couple players ready to replace them, both of them are new to the game, and eager to play. Is getting new players to replace them without them knowing the best option?
Edition please?

[Meirnon]

3.5e
We don't have books from earlier editions besides our honest interest, and there's no way we're reducing ourselves to 4e. Yeah, we're closed-minded about it, but MINIONS HAVING 1 HP IS ONE OF THE DUMBEST IDEAS I'VE EVER HEARD. Also, dwarves are NOT from the plane of elemental chaos. They come from the earth. Gawd, 4e breaks too much.:smallsigh:

[Volkov]

3.5e
We don't have books from earlier editions besides our honest interest, and there's no way we're reducing ourselves to 4e. Yeah, we're closed-minded about it, but MINIONS HAVING 1 HP IS ONE OF THE DUMBEST IDEAS I'VE EVER HEARD. Also, dwarves are NOT from the plane of elemental chaos. They come from the earth. Gawd, 4e breaks too much.:smallsigh:

Someone who agrees! Yay!

Any way talk to will and see what you can come to.

[Meirnon]

Someone who agrees! Yay!

Haha... Anyone with half a mind and not overcome by WoW should agree... or at least see the merit in the argument. I'm actually dealing with a friend who plays 4e and thinks it's great, but has shown an interest in 3.5e. He doesn't know any other edition, so I can't really blame him... bless his poor soul.

Talking to Will is easier said than done. Trust me. Another little tid-bit about him is that he's a hardcore stubborn Jack of an Ass. (As in Jackass... not a swear ><) Not to mention a total bible thumper. He can preach, but he has a terrible time practicing it (lol). I shouldn't bash him on it, though, especially at the risk of getting into any real religious stuff. My point being is that Will cannot be reasoned with short of a natural 20 on diplomacy (yes, haha, I used terminology for real life... I suck). Honestly, dealing with him WILL have negative reprecussions, but I'm not low enough to just ditch him. He is my friend.

[Tiki Snakes]

He is my friend.

Doesn't reallly sound like it. Or rather, it doesn't sound at all like the feeling is mutual, perhaps.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, this is not the mark of anyone who deserves the title 'friend' in my book. Besides, what's a bible thumper doing playing D&D anyways?

[Meirnon]

First... lol.
Second, I'm extremely loyal. Will's my friend, and while we have our differences, we get along extremely well, especially when he's not near any Theater Kids. He's been friends with Derrick (my best friend) since elementary, and our friendship happened second year of middle school. Funny story, actually.

In 6th grade, Will hated me because I was friends with Derrick (jealousy?). Anyways, he kidney-punched me till I peed blood. Teachers didn't do a thing about it. Yeah, Goodrich Middle School sucks. Anyways, the only reason we became friends was because we played D&D. We get along fine, and while Will has a conservative view in the world, while I have a liberal one, we can often find a middle ground... usually at my expense, but I don't much mind.

Also, Will plays D&D so he can be the "Righteous Crusader" and such... although he plays like an evil tyrant. He also plays it because... well, it's a great game. It's fun to pass the time with your friends around a morphic story and epic characters. I'm sure you can understand :smallwink:

When I'm someone's friend, though, I'm their friend with all conviction. I got suspended by beating up a kid who was gonna break Derrick's glasses while harassing him. Nearly broke his nose, too. Felt it give under my fist, so I pulled it back. I'm a nice guy, but I'm a bad-ass when I have to be. There's a reason Will doesn't dare kidney punch me anymore. Anyways, while I'd be glad to share my family's ability at fisticuffs (military backround, my brother's an MMA fighter with a perfect record. Only loss was because of my dad), I'm gonna click submit now.

[RebelRogue]

People incapable of following the damn rules themselves without me having to do triple the work just to keep them from cheating would have to leave my game pretty fast (unless it happens at work, in which case I get paid for it, but it still annoys me greatly).

I'm not one to say how you should pick your friends, but to me it sounds like charity, not friendship... Which may be a noble thing to do, but it sure does sound tiring!

[Meirnon]

Cynic one, aren't you? Haha... I can understand the viewpoint. I don't entirely argue with the Charity part, though... Will's a jerk, and he needs friends. The theater kids aren't gonna be friends with him years down the line, and if he keeps it up I doubt he'll have many. Could we move this away from the personal stuff, though? This isn't a Meet a playgrounder thread... I'm trying to deal with his antics in a comfortable but expedient and efficient way...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

1. Rocks fall.
2. Will's character and Jake's character die.
3. Your backup players enter the story.
4. ?
5. Profit.

Part of being a good GM is being able to lay down the law. If you are behind the screen, but players are running the game, that potential you were talking about goes to waste. I made a print-out, before my first attempt time running a game, that pretty much spelled out that I was God in games I ran. My word was law, my will was what's in the best interest for the group as a whole. If players are being disruptive, and refuse to change that behavior after being warned, they're gone. It's harsh, but sometimes nerds need the rolled up newspaper to the snout so that they learn.

[RebelRogue]

Cynic one, aren't you? Haha... I can understand the viewpoint. I don't entirely argue with the Charity part, though... Will's a jerk, and he needs friends. The theater kids aren't gonna be friends with him years down the line, and if he keeps it up I doubt he'll have many. Could we move this away from the personal stuff, though? This isn't a Meet a playgrounder thread... I'm trying to deal with his antics in a comfortable but expedient and efficient way...
Though I do have a cynical side it doesn't show too often (I hope). Sorry if I dragged it all too much in a personal direction.

As for solutions, I think the idea of policing the players, as tedious as it may be is the way to go. Also, more or less harsh consequences of stupid actions should happen (preferably only to the offending characters). Keep it balanced, though: there should be room for being badass and slightly anti-heroic if the players want to, as long as it's not gameshattering.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Haha... Anyone with half a mind and not overcome by WoW should agree... or at least see the merit in the argument.

Firstly, let me point out here that this is a very bad, very incorrect generalization.
I play, enjoy, and support 4e more than 3.5 (Mostly because I hate the casters = god mentality associated with 3.5). I do not play WoW (And never have. I gave it a try once and quickly got bored), and I'm pretty sure that within my head there is at least one half of one fully functional mind. Minions have 1HP for cinematic purposes and level-appropriate attacks and defenses, as well as being a relativly small pool of creatures. Chaos plane Dwarves is nothing I've ever heard about.

Now - to end the derails here and adress your issue.
Will and Jake are activly trying to destroy your game? That's not cool. confront them. Out of character.
ask them why, and if it's something on your end ("Too much railroading!"), fix that on your end.

If the issue is them ("We thought breaking the game would be fun."), warn them that at the next offense, the DM will cast his prepared Steal Character Sheet And Utilize Eraser spell.
If they continue to act up, cast the aforementioned spell and bring in your two reserve players.

[Meirnon]

First, Rogue, no offense taken. I appreciate the help, and I realize I come off as a bit brash when I'm tired.

To Thanatos- No, I'm not railroading, and yes they openly admitted to destroying my campaign "for fun". And as for the stealing the character sheets? It'd be more like taking back :smallbiggrin:

Also, to end the 4e conversation here and now (not because I don't enjoy a good argument, but because it'd be too tedious to have both in a single thread) I have to say this. 4e isn't traditional D&D. Cinematic or not, it doesn't play like a fantasy game should. Also, read the cosmology of 4e. Dwarves come from the plane of Elemental Chaos, Eladrins come from the Feywild, and all planes have the underdark but the underdark can't be reached by digging so it MAY or MAY NOT be another plane altogether. It's all needlessly confusing, and 3.5e does a much better job of cosmology. I'm sure I'm missing stuff for the 4e cosmology, but that's just what caught my eye. In conclusion, whether you like 4e or not, I don't and most likely will not. I'll leave you alone about it if you leave me alone. (also, I tried WoW once... Derrick said that all I could do was go and fight boars, so I did until I died and then didn't know what to do. That's how WoW was ruined for me.)

[Thanatos 51-50]

To Thanatos- No, I'm not railroading, and yes they openly admitted to destroying my campaign "for fun". And as for the stealing the character sheets? It'd be more like taking back :smallbiggrin:

Call it what you like, but I'd issue and carry out the threat if provoked.They're ruining the game for you and the oher players. Issue the kill order.

As for 4E...
I'mma stop before an edition war derails this thread.
I have not read the in-depth cosmology, but I don't recall it being said anywhere in the Dwarf entry in the PHb that they're anything but "Sons and Daughters of the Earth". They don't even have a Chaos Origin. they aren't listed as (Chaos) in the Monster Manual, and I'm really confused as to how you've come about this fact/idea.
Shoot me a PM.

[Meirnon]

Sorry if I came off as abrasive in my opinions as 4e, but that's how I feel. I'm not going to PM you simply because I DON'T want an argument that might spill over. Sure, if it was in good fun, but it seems to me that we're both on opposite ends of the spectrum here. I like 3.5e and think 4e isn't D&D. You like 4e, and think that anyone who doesn't isn't being open-minded enough. That's fine, but I don't want to start anything over it, and I know that anything that comes from an argument between us would only be bad for the both of us.

And it'd be more like taking back cause I supplied the sheets in the first place. I've warned Will and Jake numerous times, and they don't listen. I've given them penalties and adapted the game slightly and it doesn't work. I'm not sure I want them to come over again to play just to see if they'll have a change of heart when they're set on destroying the campaign. I'm having a difficult decision on what to do with them, which is why I brought it to the forum. I've got 2 players to replace them, and so far, the easiest option to me is just acting like the old campaign died out and replacing Will and Jake, even though I strongly feel that this isn't a fair thing to do. They've been warned before. Should I punish them now, then? Or should I let them get a chance to shape up? I can already see the reactions they'd have when I confronted them about it. Will'd get angry and Jake'd act defensive and innocent. Urgh... headaches don't help when you're tired...

[BobVosh]

1. Kick Will. (lol, when I typed that it combined to Kill)
2. Warn Jake.
3. Seriously reconsider your friendship with Will, any jerk who won't admit to some people that they are friends with you aren't your friend.
4. Man this thread reminds me how much I hated High School.
5. Invite the new people
6. ???
7. Profit

If you are unwilling to kick will, cheat back at him. You don't have to cheat to kill him even, just abuse CR rules until it is completly broken and kill him. Do this every time he cheats. (make sure it is monsters who will kill one person to eat, and then leave) Eventually classical conditioning will win. Or you guys will have a great story of how this one guy shows up to your game table with 5 characters each session. Paranoia is a great game.

As for Jake do the same thing.

Worst comes to worst, they leave. Your worst is a half win, your best is a full win.

[Thanatos 51-50]

And it'd be more like taking back cause I supplied the sheets in the first place. I've warned Will and Jake numerous times, and they don't listen. I've given them penalties and adapted the game slightly and it doesn't work. I'm not sure I want them to come over again to play just to see if they'll have a change of heart when they're set on destroying the campaign. I'm having a difficult decision on what to do with them, which is why I brought it to the forum. I've got 2 players to replace them, and so far, the easiest option to me is just acting like the old campaign died out and replacing Will and Jake, even though I strongly feel that this isn't a fair thing to do. They've been warned before. Should I punish them now, then? Or should I let them get a chance to shape up? I can already see the reactions they'd have when I confronted them about it. Will'd get angry and Jake'd act defensive and innocent. Urgh... headaches don't help when you're tired...

They've been warned, in private and in frank terms, they have continued to act like asshats.
Issue the punishment.

But that's just me.

EDIT: It just now strikes me that you may have just warned them over IM or something. If they do continue to act like asshats after having been warned, issue the punishments. Part of being a good and fair referee is to dole out penalties where approriate. Such things would be appropriate right now.

[Meirnon]

1. Kick Will. (lol, when I typed that it combined to Kill)
2. Warn Jake.
3. Seriously reconsider your friendship with Will, any jerk who won't admit to some people that they are friends with you aren't your friend.
4. Man this thread reminds me how much I hated High School.
5. Invite the new people
6. ???
7. Profit

If you are unwilling to kick will, cheat back at him. You don't have to cheat to kill him even, just abuse CR rules until it is completly broken and kill him. Do this every time he cheats. (make sure it is monsters who will kill one person to eat, and then leave) Eventually classical conditioning will win. Or you guys will have a great story of how this one guy shows up to your game table with 5 characters each session. Paranoia is a great game.

As for Jake do the same thing.

Worst comes to worst, they leave. Your worst is a half win, your best is a full win.

1.Hmm... Killing isn't really an option... Although I'd like to tell you about a little something when Will was my debate partner.

Y'see, we were at Nat. Qualifiers this one time last year, and Will said "Y'know what, if I screw up our debate rounds for us, you can go ahead and kick me in the balls". So, our two debate rounds go by, and it's double elimination (lose two, you're out.) The judges both rounds said that "By the time Will's speach came around, I was voting for the other team already". Tell you what. A couple kicks is what I owe Will, and I've been saving them. I'll probably serve them metaphorically, though. They taste better that way :smallbiggrin:
2.Jake's been warned. Numerous times.
3.I'm loyal: I won't just stop being a friend because they're wayward.
4.God I hate high-school... Too much drama :smallannoyed:, plus the counselors CONSTANTLY screw up my schedule. I'm not taking any electives I chose this semester, but rather the ones that were "left-over" cause no other kids wanted to them cause they deleted my old choices. I have to say, though, I'm getting a near-perfect grade in Architecture.
5.I've been discussing it with them, and they're enthused.
I'm leaving the other two out because they're mutually exclusive to the conversation and are just for kicks. Although profit does sound nice...

For the other idea, it's not exactly fast, and it kinda jipps the other two players who wanna join. It'd take months to put it through.

EDIT: No IM. I've done it before, especially the session I found out they were trying to destroy it. They seemed to comply for a little while, but they acted up again near the end. Will even said "this character sucks. I'm going to kill him off just so I can make a new one." he said that simply because he had a level adjustment and was one class level lower than everyone else.:smallsigh:

[BobVosh]

When I said kick, I meant "kick from the game," expunge his presence from your gaming circle, eradicate his influence on your table of minis, etc

Physically kicking him out of your house, while shouting "This is MY GAME" is for bonus points. Particually if he was carrying a skull for Hamlet, or some other crazy reason.

If you are worried about jipping the other two players and you don't want to kick these two...what is your plan?

Also being loyal to someone who isn't trustworthy isn't something you should do.

[Meirnon]

I have the feeling you're a person who thinks kittens being punted is funny... But maybe that's just a tired-vibe. Anyways, I kinda do want to kick them, but it's not courteous. It revolves around the issue that "they're my friends" vs. "what about my other friends" vs. "I don't want trouble and the easiest method also seems to be the fastest although the most negative-karma inducing". The last one is doozy of a long one, I know. If I have to go another session or two, sure. A month or so? No. I have an obligation to keep the peace as much as I can and to keep the most people I can happy. This is turning into one big headache for me...

Also Will and Jake are... trustworthy (?) enough to be considered friends, and honestly when it comes to most other things they are a great deal of fun to be around. Also, my best friend lives in another city, Tyler and Jake go to a different school, and Will's the only friend I have a class with... a single class. Eric goes to my school, but our contact is limited to lunch and after school. I would spend lunch with Will, too, but he spends it with the Theater Kids... *grumble grumble... stupid theater kids... so obnoxious... and annoying... and loud...*

[Thanatos 51-50]

'Kick' being meant in the metaphorical sense, not the ;iteral one. Disallow him from conituing to partake in your game.

[Talic]

Derailing campaigns is something players do when they start an arms race with the DM. They can't challenge the DM's power level (as the DM has no limits that he doesn't set himself), so they attack the story, the thing that the DM has to abide by certain rules in, to keep things making sense...

...So have the story fight back. The hobo in the alley saw something that the PC was trying to keep hidden, and reports it. Now the PC is wanted.

A wizard did it. Scrying is all too common. Same as above, but wizards generally deal with issues personally.


Other things? Encounters? Well, the jungle cat happens to attack from the rear when the problem PC is in the back.

And if the PC cheats? Back at em. If you see him go on a 'Nat 20' spree, nothing says that the monsters can't get a hot streak too.

In other words? If the character is disruptive... Kill the character. With subtlety. After a few times, people pick up on the hint, and get back in line a bit.

Now, I'm not saying players shouldn't be able to change the plot. They absolutely should. But when they attempt to destroy your prep work because they can? That's a bit much for my taste.

[Meirnon]

A wizard did it.

Oh, if only real life were as easy as these 4 simple words.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Meirnon, I realize you have a history with your buddies, but you have to draw the line somewhere. You say you don't want to make this a personal issue, but it already IS. You should have a heart-to-heart with Will, but chances are he's still going to spend game time ruining everyone else's fun and smiling all the way. After a while everyone will get fed up with him and then someone will get REAL personal with him. Friends will likely be lost and campaigns ended. When you cut away all the BS, you have a decision to make: is the campaign more important or is your 'friend?'

If it's the campaign, you kick Will out and dam how he feels about it. If you still want him as a friend and he's mature enough, you two can do other stuff together outside of D&D. If Will is more important than the game, you either cater the game to him or you end the game for everybody.

PS: He might be your friend with a hardknock story, but so do rapists and murderers.

PSS: 4e's not perfect, but I'd rather play it than the mess that is 3e. There, I waved my flag and now I'm done.

[Talic]

That's too close to a godwin for my taste. Associating an asshat with a murderer is a bit...meh. Homedude isn't causing real lasting harm... Just frustrating mischief.

It's more akin to a dog that pees on the floor. Just gotta find the right action to drive home the metaphorical newspaper to the nose.

"Bad will! No peeing on the sofa!"

[Viv]

2.Jake's been warned. Numerous times.


Then punish him.

That aside, here's the deal.

If you have players who are cheating, just remember that you're the DM. You can adjust for this by cheating yourself -- except, because you're the DM, it's not cheating, it's The Golden Rule in practice.

Don't tell your characters NPC stats, or situational modifiers. Just ask them to roll, have them apply all of their modifiers, and figure out the result behind the DM screen.

If their cheating at the time makes the game more fun, then just pretend you didn't notice and let it slide. If it makes it less fun, well, only you know what's behind the screen, and you can fudge to restore the balance.

This is the key, really. Your goal is to have fun. When I DM, I "cheat" all the time. If the result of a die roll is within fudge factor range and a particular result is more interesting, then that's what happens. Period. Sometimes this goes in the player's favor, sometimes not. Hell, sometimes I "cheat" when it's NOT in the fudge factor range and the result would be too detrimental to the campaign.

The fact is, you're the DM. Apply the Golden Rule. You make all mechanics calls and determine the results of all die rolls. If something is more fun, do it. If something is less fun, don't. Just be sure to be fair to the players in the process, and it'll work itself out.

[Theodoriph]

Honestly...the guy cheats. I'd kick him out just for that. And you should too. He obviously doesn't take the game too seriously and he shows a complete lack of respect for the game itself and for your efforts.

Being a DM isn't a walk in the park. You shouldn't have to put up with gross tomfoolery on top of the effort you put into making an enjoyable campaign.

Can him.





P.S. Since he ignores you at school now that he's hanging out with the "preppy kids", he doesn't sounds like much of a friend. :smalltongue:



Edit: Honestly...the guy cheats and is disruptive...and you have honest and eager players who want to get into the game. It's a no-brainer!

[Tequila Sunrise]

That's too close to a godwin for my taste. Associating an asshat with a murderer is a bit...meh. Homedude isn't causing real lasting harm... Just frustrating mischief.

It's more akin to a dog that pees on the floor. Just gotta find the right action to drive home the metaphorical newspaper to the nose.

"Bad will! No peeing on the sofa!"
Right, the point is: everyone has excuses for the bad things they do, but at some point you have to stop using the softly spoken "no, nos" and use the metaphorical newspaper.

[valadil]

How old are you and your players? It sounds like they're new to RP and still exploring what they can and can't do. When we first got started in middle school we were crazy disruptive just because we were figuring out how open the game was.

I wouldn't play with Will at all. I certainly wouldn't GM for him. If you really want to you could try keeping track of HP and spells for him and calling him on his attempts to cheat. But I don't think it's worth the effort.

If you really do want to play with these people, why not give them what they want? Give them a sandboxy world with a vague semblance of plot to derail. Maybe once they tire of that they'll be interested in a real game.

[Darmont]

I would either literally kill the involved players characters or effectively kill them, if Will is the cleric I would use Imprisonment or Trap the Soul. Keeping base information on the characters stats I feel is a must. If he goes below negative hit points on a roll, inform him of this and if he feels to still take his turn proceed to ignore his actions and if you want to be mean remind him each time that it may have worked, had he been concious.

Friends or not, I am a **** when it comes to the rules and will use the rules to beat a cheater simply by knowing game mechanics and use monsters that will neutralize their abilities, even if it is a homebrew monster.

[The Glyphstone]

I remember what it was like in High School. I actually remember having a friend much like Will, an obnoxious and self-centered jerk who was rude to me and everyone else around him that I, for some reason, stuck by because we had been friends for a long time....the difference is that this guy had always been a ****, but I still had a similar feeling that "he's not actually bad' or 'he can be changed'. I also remember when I finally wizened up, dropped him like a hot potato (one of the last people to do so) and how much more fun my life was without him around.

You don't seem to be willing to go this far, which is commendable to a certain degree. But note that since this is a repeated pattern of behavior that they've been warned against and will not stop, it's not going to go away. If they remain in your games, they'll keep ruining them. If they go to other people's games, they're ruin them. If they don't get in your games, they'll do something else out of spite because you denied them their fun (i.e. denying other people fun). And in the process, they'll lay waste to the enjoyment of D&D for ever other person in their path, including you and the other players. Seriously, the question at this point is not whether to kick Will and Jake from your game; the question is if you still want to try and be their friend AFTER you kick them from the game.

[Meirnon]

*sigh*...
1. I've been RPing for 3 years, almost 4. While technically the newest (besides my little brother), I'm the best out of the group. Everyone else has been playing since elementary school.

2. I've slept on it and considered all things there are... I'm probably not going to do another session with Will and Jake. I'm the DM, I have to lay down the law. I've warned them before, and they still didn't listen. So, an abrupt end would be the best course.

3. We REALLY wouldn't doubt if Will would turn into a mass murderer.

4. Enough with the 4e vs. 3e :smallannoyed: 3e wasn't great with the rules, but that's why they had 3.5e, and 4e strays too far from tradition. Normally I'd say "good, get away from convention and learn something new", but in this case it's just simplification and mixing the old formula into something "new'.:smallconfused:

5. I enjoy the metaphors. While a bit of an annoying and even unpleasant subject, they make me laugh to no end, especially when thinking about them literally. :smallbiggrin:

6. If I do do one more session with them, it'd be more of a probationary session or, if they really can't stay, a "courtesy" session where I kill them off. If it were really up to me, I'd have them stay AND have the new players come in. While that's conceivable, there's problems concerning the already short supply of food and drink. I can't serve libations to 8-9 people including myself without dipping into my monthly savings. I'd tell you why I won't even think of that, but it's a personal matter. I'm sure you can understand.

7. I like the help, but I honestly feel a little intimidated when I see 700 something views in less than a day. Does a thread like this ACTUALLY get this much attention from the playgrounders? And should I consider myself a playgrounder after having 3 successful threads?

8. I really don't have the heart to end my friendship with Will. That's not something I'd do, and it's causing a bit of a headache. (dun argue this... no matter how much you guys/gals'd say "well then if he's giving you head ache...etc.", you're not gonna change my mind.)

[SmartAlec]

8. I really don't have the heart to end my friendship with Will. That's not something I'd do, and it's causing a bit of a headache. (dun argue this... no matter how much you guys/gals'd say "well then if he's giving you head ache...etc.", you're not gonna change my mind.)

Kicking him out of the game does not mean ending a friendship. You're just doing what you have to do; nothing personal. It's up to him how he wants to take it, and if he takes it badly, then it's him ending the friendship, not you.

Sometimes you just have to consider your own needs in this life or you never get anywhere, man.

[Meirnon]

Kicking him out of the game does not mean ending a friendship. You're just doing what you have to do; nothing personal. It's up to him how he wants to take it, and if he takes it badly, then it's him ending the friendship, not you.
I know, but alot of playgrounders are saying that Will isn't really a "friend" and that I shouldn't hang around with him anymore.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I know, but alot of playgrounders are saying that Will isn't really a "friend" and that I shouldn't hang around with him anymore.
I'd want to hang out with him if I were you...it'd be interesting to watch the transition from troubled youth to murderer. I'd buy myself a two inch knife though.

How Many Threads Must I Start to Be a Playgrounder? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4nPJ-YYHBc)

[Meirnon]

I'd want to hang out with him if I were you...it'd be interesting to watch the transition from troubled youth to murderer. I'd buy myself a two inch knife though.[/url]

... It'll take more than a two inch knife to stop Will if he's determined. He's a big and tough guy, and I know enough of him that if he really went on a murderous rampage it wouldn't stop him. Maybe a three-inch. Three and a half.:smalleek:

[Meirnon]

I'm reconsidering my previous stance on my friendship with Will. Today he did something that truly hurts.

Today, our best friend Derrick came back into town, and all the guys decided to watch a movie (Terminator: Salvation). The movie itself doesn't matter to me, but the circumstance of why I wasn't invited. There's two things, only reinforced by how Tyler was able to go.

Tyler, who is always the hardest to contact out of all of us, was the last one to be invited. They really wanted him to go, so they raided him while he was still in bed and even paid for his ticket and beverage. If money was the problem (which it most certainly wasn't) they would've paid for me, too, and contact/availability DEFINITELY wasn't the problem. They know how to reach me, can even walk to my house, and know I never have anything going on on the weekends.

The two reasons I can think of are...:
1. Will told them I wasn't able to go. He made a passing mention about Derrick being in town today and something about Terminator, but didn't even bother getting a response. I figure that he either didn't want me to go, or didn't care. Still, if he didn't care, then it's the same because he certainly DID care if Tyler went, to the extent of going into his house and waking him up. So in this case, it's all on Will.

2. They all didn't care. They didn't bother asking, they didn't even invite me. I highly doubt this because Derrick CERTAINLY would have made sure. He's my best friend, and we're like brothers. We openly admit that we love eachother like brothers, and he would have liked it if I could go. This option isn't really the most believable one, so I'm going with number 1.

In this case, Will obviously doesn't even care if I'm around, despite not only being friends for quite a few years (about 5?), but because our mutual friends would have liked me to come, especially Derrick. He would have had to go out of his way to make up my response just so I wouldn't go, and had no reason to say I couldn't go unless he really didn't want me to. So... Despite me not wanting this to go to a personal level, I'm reconsidering my stance with Will. Sure, he doesn't hang out with me during school, but not hanging out with me despite being with old friends (thus having no more social rank to lose) and at even a minor effort to make sure he wouldn't really pushes things. Gah... I have a terrible headache right now...

[TempesT]

Well, Ive been reading this thread since about 55 post ago and finaly decided to post.

This is almost the carbon copy of whats been happing to me for the last couple of years. Pretty much there is this jerk who constantly like to beat the fun out of the game we would play, kill any npc, raid anything, kill anyone, min/max/persuade to use expermental rules, smash, and make it pretty much imposible to play any other style.

And I like to play the classic "You are the heros of the land" type game. This of course didnt work so well as my good bard tried to defend a pesent being bullied out of his money, he preety much sent me to negatives in one hit and said he'd kill me if i tried again:smalleek:. yes he's quite a charmer, So i kept quiet bout it. And he actualy is a very charismatic person so pretty much everyone likes the guy. Making it impossible to start a new group at the moment.

He then pretty much bullied me around when ever possible other wise. IG, and OG.

Hands down if hes this big a jerk IG, OG, and then messing with your personal plans by lying, then drop him there and walk away. That is no friend, ats what happen to me and it made me miserable.

well now thats of my chest.

Edit: He's also that type that needs a three inch knife.

[Meirnon]

Well... I think it's nice that so many playgrounders have taken an interest in my plight, even a passing one. I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do by now. I talked to one of my players who was indifferent to Will (Tyler). After I explained it to him, he agreed that I had to drop Will, and probably Jake. So, It's pretty much set in stone now that I'm dropping Will without telling him, and giving Jake another chance. I'm gonna bring in the two new guys, and hopefully everything'll go alright now.

Also, I like to play the "hero" campaign. I've been trying to convince them to actually become Exalted, and they don't seem to understand the possible benefits of it. (Saint template, ftw)

Anyways, my patience is wearing really thin with Will. The only way I was able to keep it was because he was fine with hanging out with me when no theater kids were around. Now he doesn't even want to hang around with our own mutual friends, going to a length to keep me out. Seriously... getting pissed.

[Glyde]

Don't worry about it too much. I'm going to sound harsh, but from the sounds of things he's just some loser that you're too good for. Keep your head high.

[Xuincherguixe]

Seems to me changing alignment isn't the way to go about this, because really, a PC can be any of them. Even Villains can have heroic qualities, and it's good to try different sorts of characters.

It's not even an issue of being disruptive. A certain amount of chaos is always good. That's what makes them heroes. They're the kind of people that shake things up. Bringers of change. I like disruption. When I'm the GM (D&D isn't really my game. And the way I play it is very unlike what the game is supposed to be) I want my PCs to be disruptive. And when I'm a PC, I want to be able to be disruptive too. Not to the point of ruining other peoples fun mind you. I manage an interesting sort of Chaotic Evil that can work in a team. There's a difference between setting fire to a field full of goblins cackling with glee as the poor farmer cries at the loss of his crop of corn and being an ass (err, out of character.)


And you know what? **** anyone who can't be honest with you. You're better off without people like that in your life. There's no need to put up with people like this. I mean, it's not like you're in politics. Or work in... ah crap, those people are everywhere.

That being said, you at least have control over who you play D&D with. Ditch the ass.


Cheating is fairy easy to deal with in comparison. Do all the rolls and information in the open. In theory, you shouldn't have to put up with it either, and it also reflects a bad attitude. But the actual cheating itself is easy enough to deal with. Keeping everything in the open is a good idea in general. The PCs can even communicate with each other over the best way to use their resources.

Mind you, this does bring up the question of how to handle monsters. Since they probably shouldn't have that kind of intricate knowledge of them.


Anyways, it's a good idea to involve the PCs. Find out what they want to do. That urge to rip apart plans can serve the game too. Nothing makes them feel like they're involved better than if they avoid getting a lot of people killed by killing the villain long before he can cause harm.

...Or the fallout from their bad decisions leaves the land uninhabitable for generations. But these are the kind of things that make good stories.

[Lycar]

Anyways, my patience is wearing really thin with Will. The only way I was able to keep it was because he was fine with hanging out with me when no theater kids were around. Now he doesn't even want to hang around with our own mutual friends, going to a length to keep me out. Seriously... getting pissed.

I have followed this thread from the start and all the time wondered if I should mention this.

There is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder) link which might help you understand the situation. Or not.

But be warned: You will probably not like what is written there. :smallfrown:

All in all I can only agree that it is best to cut your ties with this person. If anything, your willingnes to put up with his abuse trains him to expect to get away with this kind of behavior.

Also, brace yourself for some possible violence xoming your way. Seriously.

And if it does happen, for the love of god, do press charges! It is the only way that he will learn that actions have effects. Or repercussions as the case may be.

Lycar

[Xuincherguixe]

And don't be afraid to fight dirty either. He's pretty much asking to get punched in the jaw to begin with.

[only1doug]

I hate it when I read a thread like this and become worried about a fellow playgrounders physical safety.

Meirnon, watch yourself around Will, he sounds like a bully and a thug, you are mostly safe as long as you go along with him but if you stand up to him he might resort to violence.

I personally would kick him from my Game (with witnesses) and then be careful to avoid dark alleys or otherwise being alone with him. Oh, and tell your friend Derrick that Will seems to be biased against you and ask him to take anything Will says about you with a pinch of salt.

[Meirnon]

I am quite familiar with ASPD. In fact, one of my biggest niches is Psychology. I want to become a Youth/Community worker when I graduate from college, and I'm probably going straight for my masters. (I'm perfectly capable, and my ACT scores are in the top 99%). I myself am APD, and internet makes it easier to communicate with anyone because of it's impersonal level.

Also, I'm not entirely afraid of Will in a fight, but without a weapon I realize that I'd be hurt by the end of it. Where Will's strong and tough, I'm fast and smart. Like I said, there's a reason he doesn't want to get in a fight with me after seeing what I did to a kid who decided to push it a little bit too far with a kick to the groin (that missed... as well as the other 10 kicks while I tried to tell him to stop before I clocked him).

And to settle this, I'm kicking Will, warning Jake, taking the two new guys, having them roll in the open but leaving freedom of decision to them while popping in hints for the campaign, and using this as an example of what happens to people who don't listen to my warnings.

[d13]

The problem I'm having with that Idea is the fact that I won't be telling Will and Jake. They should at least deserve to know.

You said yourself they're your friends, so there shouldn't be a problem if you explain them why.

I have already banned my girlfriend, my brother and two of my best friends from my games, because of the same reason you want to replace this 2 guys. (OK, I give them chances once in a while, but nothing more than a one-shot, and just to 'keep practicing' xD).

"I'm sorry guys, but I don't think you're getting it right. The thing about gaming is that we ALL have fun, not just the two of you, and I'm getting tired of it. You have two choices, stop ruining the rest of the players' fun, or find a new gaming group. Yeah, we're still friends, and we can hang 'round whenever you want, but unless you're really willing to play with the rest, not against them, I'm going to have to ask you not to come again to this gaming table."

Or something a little less harsh xD


Scrapped after reading the second page. He really is a rear end in a top hat (quoting Something Awful forums xD).

[holywhippet]

-Will fudges his rolls when I'm paying attention to other players.


Invest in a dice boot/tower. If you've never seen one, it's a small tower where you can drop dice in the top and they come out the bottom. It helps prevent dice from flying all over the place or off the table.

Place it in the middle of the table so you can see the exit spout. Tell players that all dice rolls must use this device. Any other rolls are null and void - no exceptions.

[Meirnon]

I'll prolly just build one of those if I really need to. Now that Will's out I'll only have to put up with him in D&D when I go to Ed's campaign. As for this subject, I do believe that this thread is over because I figured out what I'm going to do. I'll be as respectful as I can about it, although I expect some resistance from Will.

Anyways... I've also been working on a homebrew D&D setting that I've been working on for my players and was wondering if I could have help from at least a few of you. I'm an unseasoned DM, and this is a daunting task at best, especially because I'm starting off with just my base ideas and none of it is highly developed yet. The link to the forum is on my signature. And yes, I am shameless for plugging myself yet again, but I really do need help. I don't plan on it being published, although I do hope that someone besides me uses it if and when it gets finished, just so I can see how it fares.