Other spells RC could have used [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-22, 09:19 PM

I'm not a huge D7D guy, so I was wondering what other options would an evil cleric such as Redcloak have at his disposal to quickly fend off an attack from O-Chul? It was obviously a heat of the moment choice, so I was wondering if there would have been a more effective spell if he had time to sit and think about it for a moment.

Depending on level, Blasphemy is pretty good. If, say, RC is level 17 and O-Chul is 12, then its a will save or be paralyzed.

Repulsion also 7th, is a will save and keeps O-Chul at bay until someone else can help.

Anti-life shell is 6th level but even better against O-Chul since it's no save and keep's him 10 feet away.

But RC would have to have to have these memorized and we don't know what he's got. Plus RC is casting in the heat of the moment. Oh and he's fighting ironic justice...that's a tough one to beat.

Flame Strike.
Fire Storm is better if RC has 8th level spells but prob does not stop O-Chul either.

Fine then, Phantasmal killer. Uses a will save. So o-chul would be screwed, or is it not a cleric spell?

Not a cleric or domain spell RC would know and it's a will save followed by a fort save. What you think Save or Die comes cheap at 4th level?

Olo Demonsbane

2009-05-22, 09:21 PM

Harm might have worked...the only problem is whether you can or cannot actually kill someone with it. It depends on your reading of the rules.

Disentegrate was actually a pretty good choice. If O-chul failed his Fortitude save, he would have been severely injured.

OTOH, Redcloak probably should have targeted a different save. There are several Will save or Lose spells that he could have used. Because O-chul is a multiclass Fighter/Paladin with a godly constitution, Fortitude is easily his best save.

O-chul doesnt have to make Fortitude saves, Fortitude has to make O-chul saves!

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-22, 09:23 PM

Harm might have worked...the only problem is whether you can or cannot actually kill someone with it. It depends on your reading of the rules.
Harm is a touch attack against O-Chul...and in Soviet Russia...

enarch3t

2009-05-22, 09:23 PM

Fine then, Phantasmal killer. Uses a will save. So o-chul would be screwed, or is it not a cleric spell?

I'm pretty sure that Phantasmal Killer is an arcane spell and not a cleric spell.

Really though disintegrate is a good choice, I don't know what level Red Cloak is, speculation in the comic is that he's 17th level, so that could mean 34d6 damage! Not many things could survive the attack . . . . I think I'm right about the damage, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: ninja'd

theinsulabot

2009-05-22, 09:25 PM

Fire Storm is better if RC has 8th level spells but prob does not stop O-Chul.

Depending on level, Blasphemy is pretty good. If, say, RC is level 17 and O-Chul is 12, then its a will save or be paralyzed.

Repulsion also 7th, is a will save and keeps O-Chul at bay until someone else can help.

Anti-life shell is 6th level but even better against O-Chul since it's no save and keep's him 10 feet away.

But RC would have to have to have these memorized and we don't know what he's got. Plus RC is casting in the heat of the moment. Oh and he's fighting ironic justice...that's a tough one to beat.

remember, o-chul has some seriously hot dice, blasphemy would of been a good choice, but either of the other two and o-chul would of almost certainly thrown the bar. the same natural 20 would of either impaled RC or went straight through that eye anyway

SadisticFishing

2009-05-22, 09:26 PM

There's no save against Blasphemy...

I hope Rich never touches it as a spell, heh.

Volkov

2009-05-22, 09:26 PM

Stab undead human. :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Paladin

2009-05-22, 09:34 PM

Fine then, Phantasmal killer. Uses a will save. So o-chul would be screwed, or is it not a cleric spell?
1.) It's not a cleric spell.

2.) It allows a Fortitude save to take (a small amount of) damage instead of dying if you fail the Will save. It would not have likely stopped O-Chul even if he could cast it.

Volkov

2009-05-22, 09:36 PM

1.) It's not a cleric spell.

2.) It allows a Fortitude save to take (a small amount of) damage instead of dying if you fail the Will save. It would not have likely stopped O-Chul even if he could cast it.

Summon Pun-Pun?

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-22, 09:36 PM

Really though disintegrate is a good choice, I don't know what level Red Cloak is, speculation in the comic is that he's 17th level, so that could mean 34d6 damage! Not many things could survive the attack . . . . I think I'm right about the damage, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

It depends on the particulars. Takes the stats from the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005) but say RC is level 17 (which he is probably not) with a wisdom of 24 with wisdom enhancing items. Then it's 34d6 damage which avergaes to 119 hp which may or may not kill O-Chul. Howver, O-Chul gets a DC25 Fortitude save to take only 5d6. So say O-Chul is a fighter 4/ paladin 8 with a 24 Constitution. Then, his Fortitude save is +19 and he only needs a 6 to save. So then RC has, with these assumptions, a 25% of killing O-Chul almost killing O-Chul and 75% of giving O-Chul an ouchy.

Now if RC can target O-Chul's Will save then RC's chance of success probably goes up to 95%.

There's no save against Blasphemy...

I hope Rich never touches it as a spell, heh.

Yeah it's better than many other choices except it's not an insta-win unless O-Chul is 5 levels lower than RC. Sure dazed is good but then what happens next round?
:redcloak: A little help here.
:xykon: Can't you see I'm busy?

Volkov

2009-05-22, 09:38 PM

It depends on the particulars. Takes the stats from the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005) but say RC is level 17 (which he is probably not) with a wisdom of 24 with wisdom enhancing items. Then it's 34d6 damage which avergaes to 119 hp which may or may not kill O-Chul. Howver, O-Chul gets a DC25 Fortitude save to take only 5d6. So say O-Chul is a fighter 4/ paladin 8 with a 24 Constitution. Then, his Fortitude save is +19 and he only needs a 6 to save. So then RC has, with these assumptions, a 25% of killing O-Chul almost killing O-Chul and 75% of giving O-Chul an ouchy.

Now if RC can target his will save then his chance of success probably goes up to 95%.

Would Summon Pun-Pun stop O-chul? Or Summon Space Marine?

Volkov

2009-05-22, 09:43 PM

Yeah it's better than many other choices except it's not an insta-win unless O-Chul is 5 levels lower than RC. Sure dazed is good but then what happens next round?
:redcloak: A little help here.
:xykon: Can't you see I'm busy?

Blasphemy, then run to tsusiko, for help.

Zevox

2009-05-22, 09:43 PM

If Redcloak hit O-Chul with DISINTEGRATE and it left him still charging full-speed with wisps of smoke billowing from him, do you really think Flame Strike would have make much of a difference?
It might have, actually. The most likely explanation for O-Chul surviving the Disintegrate is not that he was able to take the full brunt of it and live, but that he made his save, which reduces the damage it does to a fairly negligable amount for characters of the levels we're looking at. Disintegrate allows a fortitude save, which Paladins and Fighters both are inherently good at, and which is bolstered by your constitution score, which we know is a good one for O-Chul, so it stands to reason that thats why he survived that.

Flame Strike, though, he'd have a much tougher time making his save against. That uses a reflex save, which is poor for Paladins and Fighters both, and in general Paladins aren't too likely to have a high dexterity score to help it. And we know O-Chul has charisma as a dump stat, so he likely gets little, if any, help from the Paladin Divine Grace ability. Odds are, a Flame Strike would hurt O-Chul much more than that Disintegrate did.

But all that is moot, as Flame Strike requires a Divine Focus, which means Redcloak could not cast it without his Holy Symbol.

Fine then, Phantasmal killer. Uses a will save. So o-chul would be screwed, or is it not a cleric spell?
Its not a Cleric spell. And it allows two saves, both will and fortitude, not just a will save. O-Chul may fail the will save, but odds are he'd make the fortitude one. Which would change the affect from "death" to "3d6 damage" - even less than the disintegrate did on a successful save.

Would blasphemy have worked?
If he had it prepared, possibly. Depends on what his exact level is and what O-Chul's exact level is. If O-Chul is 5 or more levels below him, definitely. If he's only one to four below him, probably - even though that would only stun O-Chul for one round and weaken him for a few more, that one round of stun would let Redcloak retrieve his Holy Symbol and cast a healing spell on himself, which could change things significantly. But again, that hinges on him having it prepared in the first place.

Zevox

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-22, 09:46 PM

Blasphemy, then run to tsusiko, for help.

The same thing happened in the comic but it was way more juicy and satisfying.

Would Summon Pun-Pun stop O-chul? Or Summon Space Marine?

I summon...Undead Prince

Volkov

2009-05-22, 09:52 PM

The same thing happened in the comic but it was way more juicy satisfying.

I summon...Undead Prince

I summon, a thirsty russian and give the undead prince vodka in plain sight of the russian.

Zevox

2009-05-22, 10:02 PM

Lets see here, the core (SRD) spells that Redcloak could cast without his Holy Symbol that might help him in that situation (and running under the assumption that he is incapable of casting level 9 spells) are:

- Word of Recall (Duh.)
- Blasphemy (Depends on their exact levels, as I mentioned above.)
- Command/Greater Command (The former would only buy him one round, and may not work due to its low level leaving it with a comparably low save DC. The latter would probably win it for him. 15+ rounds of O-Chul doing nothing...)
- Cure spells/Heal (To restore himself to fighting shape.)
- Ethereal Jaunt (Buys him time to restore himself, he can re-enter the battle once he's ready. Probably better tactically than Word of Recall, as he could retreat if he felt it necessary, too.)
- Firestorm (Better offensive spell than Flame Strike.)
- Harm (150 damage, will save half. Probably his best offensive option. Whether it would work depends on how much hp O-Chul has left.)
- Inflict Spells (Inferior offensive option to Firestorm or Harm.)
- Plane Shift (Save-or-die [effectively] that uses a will save.)
- Searing Light (Highly unlikely to be useful unless O-Chul actually failed his Disintegrate save but survived anyway and thus has very low hp now. Inferior to Firestorm, Harm, and most of the Inflict spells in any event.)
- Unholy Aura (Buff spell, probably not worth using, but you never know without knowing exactly what Redcloak's AC vs O-Chul's attack modifier is.)

So he had a few options which may have been better than Word of Recall, but only one that was almost certainly better (didn't rely on O-Chul failing a save or having low enough hp to KO in one shot, or on other unknowns like his level or attack mod), that being Ethereal Jaunt. And all of these are highly dependant on him actually having them prepared (except the Inflict spells, since he can cast those spontaneously, but they're a poor choice anyway). So from where I'm sitting, Word of Recall was a pretty good choice.

Zevox

EyethatBinds

2009-05-22, 10:13 PM

Ethereal Jaunt, would've made him able to fight with ease, and made sure that he wouldn't lose any important organs. Then extended Summon monster VII would finish off the unarmored, nearly unarmed paladin without issue. While Redcloak continues to weaken the prisoner with disintegrate, Symbol of Pain, Poison, Doom, and of course my favorite, Darkness.

Of course he could also have just pretended to surrender and cast regenerate on O'Chul. If O'Chul attacked an unarmed opponent who flown the white flag he'd be likely to lose his paladin abilities.

In short, Redcloak used the poorest possible tactic by not being a smart villain.

Badgercloak

2009-05-22, 10:20 PM

He could have used Disintegrate on the floor instead. Dropping O-Chul for falling damage and getting some distance.

Nightmarenny

2009-05-22, 10:22 PM

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-22, 10:30 PM

Ethereal Jaunt

That's just running away at a slower pace if he has it ready.

Then extended Summon monster VII would finish off the unarmored, nearly unarmed paladin without issue.

That's at least two rounds later.

While Redcloak continues to weaken the prisoner with disintegrate, Symbol of Pain, Poison, Doom, and of course my favorite, Darkness.

All of which require RC to become material to either cast or touch attack.

In short, Redcloak used the poorest possible tactic by not being a smart villain.
Actually, it's the smart villians who run away from the PCs.

He could have used Disintegrate on the floor instead. Dropping O-Chul for falling damage and getting some distance.
You must have an easy DM.

Axl_Rose

2009-05-22, 10:33 PM

Maybe he could have summoned that bigass demonic elephant like he did during the Siege of Azure City, cuz I would imagine it could run faster than RC can and etc.

Secris

2009-05-22, 10:50 PM

Just to clarify, since I wasn't clear and a few people misunderstood, I meant this about spells to cast instead of disinigrate, not word of recall. And I'm amazed at how many replies such a simple question got, keep them coming! I havn't even heard of a few of these spells.

FatJose

2009-05-22, 11:57 PM

He could have used Disintegrate on the floor instead. Dropping O-Chul for falling damage and getting some distance.

I say that would do it. :smallamused:

Tanaar

2009-05-23, 12:11 AM

I like the Disintegrate on the floor idea, and some of the others aren't bad. But here's where I win this thread:

Wall of Stone

No save to block O-Chul from getting to Red Cloak entirely, at which point RC can deal with the threat at his leisure. Allow me to repeat. No save. Let that sink in for a moment. I'll wait.

...

...

Alternatively, the spell description specifically permits you to attempt to entrap a moving target, with a Reflex save to avoid it. Reflex IS O-Chul's worst save*. At best, he's got maybe 13 Dex (probably much lower), multiclassing means his cumulative base Reflex is low, and his Charisma is notably lower than most paladins (so Divine Grace won't save him). So RC shouldn't be targeting Will, and definitely not Fort, but rather Reflex.

*O-Chul probably has 13-14 Wis, both because of the necessity for Wis-based spellcasting and because he has repeatedly shown a remarkable understanding and insight (check out his analysis of MitD).

Potential problems: 1) Structural weight of the stone, solved if he does not conjure the maximum he is capable of. 2) It is unlikely RC prepared Wall of Stone.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-23, 12:22 AM

Repulsion (will save, no one can come near you)

Word of chaos (can be cast without the amulet)

Blade barrier 15d6 damage to move though

Antilife Shell No save. Living things can't get within 10 feet.

Wall of stone: Box redcloak and the door in, o chul out.

Zevox

2009-05-23, 12:26 AM

While Redcloak continues to weaken the prisoner with disintegrate, Symbol of Pain, Poison, Doom, and of course my favorite, Darkness.
Er, all of those are very poor choices. Disintegrate he doesn't have a second shot with - he only has it as a domain spell, and you can only prepare those in domain slots if they're not normally Cleric spells, which that one isn't - and even if he did, O-Chul's high fortitude save would likely reduce its effect to a minimum anyway.

Poison also allows a fortitude save, and is medium-level spell, so its highly unlikely it would work, given O-Chul is a Fighter/Paladin with a high constitution score.

Symbol of Pain has a 10-minute casting time (that's 100 rounds), rendering it absolutely impossible to use in a battle that is already underway. And even if he could cast it in a reasonable timeframe, it would either require O-Chul to actually read/touch/look at/pass over the symbol, or it would affect Redcloak too if he left himself to able to trigger it. And it allows a fortitude save.

Doom is a low-level spell that would only impose a -2 penalty to his attack rolls, saves, skills and ability checks, and that's if he failed a comparably-easy will save. Its not worth using at this level.

And Darkness only gives him a 20% miss chance. Yeah, not a great defense, given it leaves him with an 80% chance of being hit. And if O-Chul has the Blind-Fight feat (an easily accessed and useful one for fighters), its even less useful.

Of course he could also have just pretended to surrender and cast regenerate on O'Chul. If O'Chul attacked an unarmed opponent who flown the white flag he'd be likely to lose his paladin abilities.
That's extremely questionable, given the situation. O-Chul is aware of the threat Redcloak poses to reality, and of his past actions with regards to populace of Azure City. And he doesn't seem to be under the illusion that he'll survive his current attack on Xykon & co (and frankly, he's absolutely right about that), which means he can't expect to take Redcloak prisoner. Which means even if Redcloak surrendered, sparing him would be stupidity at its finest, because the odds that that surrender would actually mean anything are long indeed.

In short, Redcloak used the poorest possible tactic by not being a smart villain.
Not at all - his decisions were quite good given the circumstances. Disintegrate was a poor choice, true, but hardly the worst, and Word of Recall was a good move. Perhaps not the best, but not at all poor, nor anywhere near the poorest he could take (the poorest he could take would get him killed).

You must have an easy DM.
Er, but Disintegrate can do that. If used on an object - like a floor - it disintegrates a 10-foot cube. Unless the floors of Xykon's tower are thicker than that, he could indeed disintegrate it right out from under O-Chul to halt his attack. (Heck, even if they're thicker than that, using it that way would leave O-Chul in a 10' deep hole he'd need to spend time and climb checks trying to get out of, which isn't half bad in and of itself. Certainly better than using Disintegrate on O-Chul directly. And its even questionable if he could climb out of it - the climb skill says that perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surfaces cannot be climbed at all, and one could easily argue that's what a Disintegrate spell would leave if used this way.)

Just to clarify, since I wasn't clear and a few people misunderstood, I meant this about spells to cast instead of disinigrate, not word of recall. And I'm amazed at how many replies such a simple question got, keep them coming! I havn't even heard of a few of these spells.
Oh, I see. You should have mentioned that.

In that case, in addition to spells I gave as alternatives to Word of Recall, I'd say (again, limiting myself to core/SRD spells):

- Repulsion: Keeps creatures from approaching within a certain distance of the caster (up to 10' per level, chosen by the caster). Allows a will save, which is probably poor on O-Chul.
- Blade Barrier: Would probably do better damage than the disintegrate did, if only because O-Chul's reflex save is not likely to be good. Inferior to Harm, though.
- Antilife Shell: Like Repulsion, but no save. Only a 10' radius, but that's sufficient for Redcloak's purposes.
- Flame Strike: Like Blade Barrier, more likely to significantly harm O-Chul than Disintegrate. But unlike Blade Barrier, wouldn't stick around after the one use. And still inferior to Harm.
- Wall of Stone: Shape it as a cylinder around O-Chul to imprison him instantly. If the tower's floors are made of stone, anyway.

Personally, for the best offensive spell he could have used, I'd go with Harm or Plane Shift. For the best defensive, Antilife Shell or Wall of Stone, maybe Ethereal Jaunt.

But of course, all this depends on him actually having those spells prepared. Though at least one of those "best" selections, Harm, he almost surely does, given they're so useful for healing Xykon in addition to being potent offensive spells (plus he can prepare it in his 6th-level domain slot). And we know he's prepared Plane Shift before (used against Azure City's High Priest), so it would hardly be unprecedented for him to have it.

Zevox

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 12:37 AM

I like the Disintegrate on the floor idea, and some of the others aren't bad.

Sheesh...OK let's try this. First, by the book, you disintegrate a 10 foot cube. So that should cover roughly maybe a 60x60 square section of floor. I'm not going to consider any structural damage to the tower cause it's just too much thinking.

That means not only O-Chul falls but so do you and V. To the next floor. OK that's maybe 20 feet down so that 2d6 damage for everyone.

O-Chul finishes his move next to you and he full attacks.

Er, but Disintegrate can do that. If used on an object - like a floor - it disintegrates a 10-foot cube. Unless the floors of Xykon's tower are thicker than that, he could indeed disintegrate it right out from under O-Chul to halt his attack. (Heck, even if they're thicker than that, using it that way would leave O-Chul in a 10' deep hole he'd need to spend time and climb checks trying to get out of, which isn't half bad in and of itself. Certainly better than using Disintegrate on O-Chul directly. And its even questionable if he could climb out of it - the climb skill says that perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surfaces cannot be climbed at all, and one could easily argue that's what a Disintegrate spell would leave if used this way.)

Now in the case of a dungeon or say outside, you are basically creating a pit trap under O-Chul. The easiest way to adjudicate is treat it as a pit trap, so O-Chul gets a Reflex save DC 15. That's close to a 50-50 so that is better at least than Fort save but only 1d6 damage. As for trapping O-Chul, that hardly seems fair to be able to trap a high level fighter type in a mere 10' deep pit and give him no chance of escape. I'd say it's a rough surface with a corner so it's a DC 20 or 25 climb check. So it will depend on on his climb skill and strength modifier.

But here's where I win this thread:

Wall of Stone

Heh...that's actually pretty good. Now that's thinking outside of the 10x10 room.

EyethatBinds

2009-05-23, 12:40 AM

My list of spells were suggestions of what to use after casting Ethereal Jaunt and Summon Monster VII. Since O'Chul has a limited number of smite evils per day darkness would be a great method of negating some of them, potentially.

As would Doom, and the other harrying spells I suggested. I guess I let symbol of pain slip my mind since I called Xykon using it on the Order without too much effort, but that could've been set up in advance.

Redcloak is a support caster, particularly since he eschews a weapon and armor. He's better off letting another thing take the front line and just pulling out evil tricks from his sleeves.

With the ethereal jaunt he can just escape any time it would be prudent.

kirbsys

2009-05-23, 12:43 AM

It's been mentioned a few times, but blasphemy is still my favorite. He can cast it if he can cast disintegrate, and there's no save (at least not for the effects), so at least O-Chul would have been dazed, probably worse.

Occasional Sage

2009-05-23, 12:50 AM

Blasphemy, then run to tsusiko, for help.

That would be my favorite. They hate one another; I wouldn't bet against Tsukiko helping O-Chul kill Redcloak, then trying to take him on alone.

Zevox

2009-05-23, 01:00 AM

My list of spells were suggestions of what to use after casting Ethereal Jaunt and Summon Monster VII.
I know. But to cast any of those and have them affect O-Chul, he'd have to abandon the Ethereal Jaunt. Spells cast while ethereal cannot affect the material plane according to the spell. (Heck, its even questionable whether the summoned creature wouldn't show up on the ethereal plane rather than the material one if the caster is under the effect of an Ethereal Jaunt...)

Since O'Chul has a limited number of smite evils per day darkness would be a great method of negating some of them, potentially.
But he can do so much better than that meager miss chance with other spells, so why waste his time on that?

As would Doom, and the other harrying spells I suggested. I guess I let symbol of pain slip my mind since I called Xykon using it on the Order without too much effort, but that could've been set up in advance.
But those other harrying spells (aka poison, since disintegrate and symbol of pain are impossible and darkness was covered) would almost certainly not work. And even if doom did, the benefit is minimal. Other spells will be much more useful. Heck, at the very least there's Hold Person, a 2nd-level spell that would paralyze O-Chul for 15+ rounds if he kept failing will saves, which likely aren't good for him given he has two classes which are both poor at that. And he can do a lot better than that, too.

Redcloak is a support caster, particularly since he eschews a weapon and armor. He's better off letting another thing take the front line and just pulling out evil tricks from his sleeves.
Try telling that to him. Most of the spells we've seen him cast in combat have been damaging ones (Disintegrate, Harm, Blade Barrier, Flame Strike in SoD) or save-or-dies (Plane Shift, Destruction, Slay Living). Aside from those, we've only seen him use summoning spells, posion during the fight with Azure City's High Priest, and a couple of restorative spells in SoD. He clearly seems to prefer the role of a more offensive caster.

And honestly, he has better choices for support spells than the low-level ones you gave. Antilife Shell, Blasphemy, Repulsion, Wall of Stone, Greater Command; there are any number of support-type spells that could halt someone like O-Chul where he stands. But Doom, Darkness, and Poison? Those aren't among them.

Zevox

FatJose

2009-05-23, 01:02 AM

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 01:08 AM

My list of spells were suggestions of what to use after casting Ethereal Jaunt

But your spells can't affect him while you are ethereal. They only effect those on the ethereal plane.

and Summon Monster VII

First you would be summoning on the ethereal plane. You would have to summon something like a Jann or a Xill (Summon Monster VI) that could go from the Ethereal to the Material planes. Or you would have to move away, go material and cast the summons. Summoning is a full round casting. So at best you have 2-5 Xills summoned and ready to attack O-Chul in 2 rounds. I don't think O-Chul would be standing still all this time.

Look, O-Chul cannot win. He knows he cannot win. He stated he cannot win. Yes Redcloak could have used a slightly better spell. But even with the not-best spell selection by Redcloak, he did not defeat Redcloak. He has no chance against Xykon. It is a heroic last stand.

Aren't you technically able to control your output? I dont know if this actually a rule either way but can't you, as a caster, tone down your power output?

This is where a young DM could get exasperated but experience is a great teacher.

:redcloak:: I disintegrate the floor under O-Chul!

Me: Fine you disintegrate the floor. Everyone falls for 2d6.

:xykon::Except me. I'm just laughing.

Me: Yes except Xykon who is still flying.

:redcloak:: No I meant only the floor under O-Chul.

Me: OK. Let's make it easy. Let's forego the ranged attack to hit a floor section O-Chul is running through. O-Chul gets a DC15 reflex save to avoid the pit you create under his feet.

:redcloak:: Wait how does he do that?

Me: When starts to fall, he tries to jump and grab the ledge.

:redcloak:: He can't do that.

Me: Do you want me to ask you to justify your Reflex saves to avoid Fireball's and such? O-Chul gets a DC 15 reflex save. If he makes it he continues his move. If he falls, he gets 2d6 and lands 20 feet down on the floor below.

There may be more correct ways to adjudicate this but speed makes up for a errors in judgement.

FatJose

2009-05-23, 01:37 AM

*takes notes down*

Ok, how about...Disintegrate on the weapon? Well, that would be much harder to hit...and O-Chul would probably stop for a second and then just punch his eye out. Kimbo Slice style

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-23, 01:42 AM

Getting a reflex save to be able to move away from barriers that appear in your square in someone elses turns are pretty standard, so I'd agree with you there.

Wall of stone will or won't have a save depending on how its used. If you try to put him in his own box, he gets a save to be on the other side of it. if its used to box in, say, redcloak and the exit, he does not.

Ok, how about...Disintegrate on the weapon

Would probably work. It gets o chuls fort save, but 5d6 would probably finish off a bar of metal.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 02:08 AM

Would probably work. It gets o chuls fort save, but 5d6 would probably finish off a bar of metal.

Ninja'ed! But yeah this covers it.

Disintegrate on the weapon? Well, that would be much harder to hit

The sword's AC should be something like 10 + 2 (size mod) + O-Chul's Dex mod which should not be too hard for RC to hit.

and O-Chul would probably stop for a second and then just punch his eye out.
Can't fight fate.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-23, 04:08 AM

I can't believe no-one's mentioned Hold Monster yet.

And Redcloak does have it, he used it in Start of Darkness.

daggaz

2009-05-23, 04:47 AM

Of course he could also have just pretended to surrender and cast regenerate on O'Chul. If O'Chul attacked an unarmed opponent who flown the white flag he'd be likely to lose his paladin abilities.
.

Sounds like the Awful Stupid alignment if you ask me... I thought Rich had cured us playgrounders of this ailment with the awesomeness that is O'Chuul contrasted with Miko who was never meant to be..

Seriously? An evil goblin cleric who worships an evil god, who not only waylaid your home city, slaughtering hundreds or thousands of civilians as well as decimating the holy ranks of the paladin guard, but as well is on a mission with a terribly evil lich sorcerer to take over an evil power strong enough to destroy all of creation including the gods, to which said paladin guard has been destined throughout time to guard, and you are going to believe his obvious lies??

Are we reading the same comic???

If I were DM, I would have a strong urge to have you fall for utterly failing your God and Vows for believing such an obvious lie and taking such a clear and unacceptable risk, soon after RC rather quickly turns the tide on you and takes full advantage himself.. The only thing that might stay my hand in this case is the fact that your God would have a rather vested interest in keeping you in the battle as much as possible.

At any rate, really bad things should happen if O'Chuul were to take this choice.

daggaz

2009-05-23, 04:52 AM

I can't believe no-one's mentioned Hold Monster yet.

And Redcloak does have it, he used it in Start of Darkness.

Hold Monster holds...monsters. Redcloak does have hold person tho, as a cleric. The question is just if he had it prepared today... Personally I almost always have it prepared, considering its such a useful low level spell.

The saving throw is pretty paltry tho in this case, even with RC's wisdom bonus, its a pretty big risk to take. If RC has a 26 wisdom like people talk about on the boards a bit, its only a DC 20 saving throw. O'Chuul probably has +4 or +5 wis from his fighter/paladin progression, personally I lean towards +5, and I would be shocked if he has any less than 16 wisdom, so thats +7 to +8 right there. 60 to 70% success with hold person like that, but O'Chuul could very well have some feats that give him a bonus or even a double chance on the roll... Awfully risky for RC when word of recall is a sure thing, especially when you take into account that Hold Person requires a divine focus, so he cant even cast it in the second round :smallamused:

Haven

2009-05-23, 05:01 AM

Hold Monster holds...monsters. Redcloak does have hold person tho, as a cleric. The question is just if he had it prepared today... Personally I almost always have it prepared, considering its such a useful low level spell.

Hold Monster affects any living creature. (As V says, "We are all in the monster manual somewhere, are we not?")

Secris

2009-05-23, 05:07 AM

If Hold Monster works on humans (and elves, ect ect), what is the point of Hold Person? And does Hold Person work on monsters? Again, not well versed in the ways of D&D.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-23, 05:09 AM

If Hold Monster works on humans (and elves, ect ect), what is the point of Hold Person? And does Hold Person work on monsters? Again, not well versed in the ways of D&D.

Hold Monster is basically a more powerful version of Hold Person. It affects more types of monsters. Also, as a higher level spell than Hold Person, the save DC would be higher, improving the chance of success.

daggaz

2009-05-23, 05:13 AM

Hold Monster affects any living creature. (As V says, "We are all in the monster manual somewhere, are we not?")

I always forget that... dont play enough wizards.

Still, it requires a divine focus for a cleric to cast, so its a no go (he should have tried that the first round, really)

lord_khaine

2009-05-23, 05:21 AM

Redcloak is a support caster, particularly since he eschews a weapon and armor. He's better off letting another thing take the front line and just pulling out evil tricks from his sleeves

well, for a cleric with low physical stats, using weapons are generaly inferior to just using your spells.
and RC does actualy use armor, he says so in start of darkness.

also something we have to keep in mind, is that RC does not have our knowledge of O'chuuls stats, and generaly paladins have pretty good saves all around.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-23, 05:25 AM

Still, it requires a divine focus for a cleric to cast, so its a no go (he should have tried that the first round, really)

That's the point of this thread: What should he have cast instead of disintegrate?

Innis Cabal

2009-05-23, 05:47 AM

Sheesh...OK let's try this. First, by the book, you disintegrate a 10 foot cube. So that should cover roughly maybe a 60x60 square section of floor. I'm not going to consider any structural damage to the tower cause it's just too much thinking.

That means not only O-Chul falls but so do you and V. To the next floor. OK that's maybe 20 feet down so that 2d6 damage for everyone.

O-Chul finishes his move next to you and he full attacks.

Now in the case of a dungeon or say outside, you are basically creating a pit trap under O-Chul. The easiest way to adjudicate is treat it as a pit trap, so O-Chul gets a Reflex save DC 15. That's close to a 50-50 so that is better at least than Fort save but only 1d6 damage. As for trapping O-Chul, that hardly seems fair to be able to trap a high level fighter type in a mere 10' deep pit and give him no chance of escape. I'd say it's a rough surface with a corner so it's a DC 20 or 25 climb check. So it will depend on on his climb skill and strength modifier.

Heh...that's actually pretty good. Now that's thinking outside of the 10x10 room.

Except it would just create a 2 square by 2 square hole 2 squares deep. Chances are that room is way bigger, and at the time he could cast it, O-chul would have been more than 10 feet away. All in all not a bad plan. You must just not like creativity.

Nevadie

2009-05-23, 06:05 AM

I'm gonna stick with saying Word of Recall was his best option. Considering how long he's been in that city, he more then likely has his sanctuary set to a room inside the tower. Probably no more then 20-30 feet away. If it wasn't then I don't believe Red would be that stupid has to risk all hes worked for.

Me? I have faith in red.... and....
I would not be surprised if he didn't show back up on 2-3 rounds with a whole squad of goblins.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-23, 06:11 AM

Of course he could also have just pretended to surrender and cast regenerate on O'Chul. If O'Chul attacked an unarmed opponent who flown the white flag he'd be likely to lose his paladin abilities.

A caster is never unarmed. Gagged, stripped, tied up, and hit over the head they're still dangerous.

In start of darkness

Paladins slaughter an entire village of goblins, men women and children, without falling. And those are the ones that DIDN"T overrun azure city

theinsulabot

2009-05-23, 07:12 AM

remember, o-chul has some seriously hot dice, blasphemy would of been a good choice, but either of the other two and o-chul would of almost certainly thrown the bar. the same natural 20 would of either impaled RC or went straight through that eye anyway

just reiterating this for those who believe such spells as repulsion or anti life would be good used of RC's round. i think the best attack would be a high level incapacitate that targeted the reflex save, because even a set of weighted dice cant bail you out of everything, but remember, o-chul, rolls 20s. any spell designed to make distance on o-chul needs to repel EVERYTHING, or he would very likely throw that bar like a javelin.

Zevox

2009-05-23, 10:28 AM

Now in the case of a dungeon or say outside, you are basically creating a pit trap under O-Chul. The easiest way to adjudicate is treat it as a pit trap, so O-Chul gets a Reflex save DC 15. That's close to a 50-50 so that is better at least than Fort save but only 1d6 damage.
That seems reasonable.

As for trapping O-Chul, that hardly seems fair to be able to trap a high level fighter type in a mere 10' deep pit and give him no chance of escape.
Its not intended to be fair - its intended to be effective. And its hardly the only spell of that level that can screw fighter types over instantly. We've already noted that Wall of Stone could trap him just as thoroughly with a reflex save more difficult than the pit trap one you proposed. Other spells, some of even lower level, will outright kill him if he fails a save.

I can't believe no-one's mentioned Hold Monster yet.

And Redcloak does have it, he used it in Start of Darkness.
Ooo, good catch, I hadn't noticed that one. That means he has the Law domain, too. Which makes his surprise at seeing the Azure City High Priest use it a little odd, but oh well.

Ok, how about...Disintegrate on the weapon?
I don't think he's allowed to target objects that are "attended" (held/worn/etc) by another creature with a ranged attack like Disintegrate without the non-Core feat Ranged Sunder. Would probably work if he could though, since even on a save it would likely do enough damage to destroy the bar, as others have noted.

Zevox

Simanos

2009-05-23, 10:54 AM

Sheesh...OK let's try this. First, by the book, you disintegrate a 10 foot cube. So that should cover roughly maybe a 60x60 square section of floor. I'm not going to consider any structural damage to the tower cause it's just too much thinking.

That means not only O-Chul falls but so do you and V. To the next floor. OK that's maybe 20 feet down so that 2d6 damage for everyone.
OK I read you other posts in this thread and I have to say you are the one with the problematic DM (or you are that DM in fact).
Disintegrate says that used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. This implies that you can do less if you want. And even if it didn't you could always target the floor 10 feet away from you so that the effect stops at your feet. And no O-Chul would not get a reflex save because gravity doesn't allow saves. He would only get a save if he had like a readied action to jump (and could jump far enough), but that would also mean wasting his turn. The only reflex save I would give would be to avoid (half) falling damage or something, assuming O-Chul was caught dead centre. As someone else said you must have a dislike for creativity.

As for disintegrating the weapon I'm pretty sure you're wrong again, calculating its AC like that. It's not an unattended object or simply carried, it's a wielded weapon and you have to use sunder rules. At the very least it's as hard to affect the weapon as O-Chul (if not harder) and 5d6 are not going to easily destroy it when iron has 10 hardness and 30 hitpoints per inch of thickness. Not to mention that O-Chul could still attack afterwards (even grappling would be bad).

Hold Monster sounds nice, but still has a save, while Wall of Stone (or similar) is indeed the best suggestion in this thread so far. Depends on where Word of Recall teleported RC to of course.

lord_khaine

2009-05-23, 11:58 AM

OK I read you other posts in this thread and I have to say you are the one with the problematic DM (or you are that DM in fact).
Disintegrate says that used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. This implies that you can do less if you want.

the problem is that you can not specificaly target carried items with most normal magical attacks.

And even if it didn't you could always target the floor 10 feet away from you so that the effect stops at your feet. And no O-Chul would not get a reflex save because gravity doesn't allow saves. He would only get a save if he had like a readied action to jump (and could jump far enough), but that would also mean wasting his turn. The only reflex save I would give would be to avoid (half) falling damage or something, assuming O-Chul was caught dead centre. As someone else said you must have a dislike for creativity.

and you have a severe like of rule abuse.
the reflex save isnt against gravity, its for managing to either take a fast step or a wild jump before the ground is finished turning into dust.
and there are precedence for the reflex save, what you do these is basicaly simulating a pit trap, just without the spikes, and there you also (sometimes) get a reflex save to avoid falling.

Simanos

2009-05-23, 12:45 PM

the problem is that you can not specificaly target carried items with most normal magical attacks.

and you have a severe like of rule abuse.
the reflex save isnt against gravity, its for managing to either take a fast step or a wild jump before the ground is finished turning into dust.
and there are precedence for the reflex save, what you do these is basicaly simulating a pit trap, just without the spikes, and there you also (sometimes) get a reflex save to avoid falling.
The floor isn't being carried. I was talking about the floor.

I said gravity tongue-in-cheek, but if you like let's talk more about the reflex save. Usually saving does not allow you to move to other "squares". You just save where you are. If it's not possible (the whole room floor falls and you can't hold on to the sides) there is simply no save (or near impossibly high DC). Lot's of spells and traps have no save. It all depends on the DM really. As you can see a wall of stone would allow no save. See:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm

FatJose

2009-05-23, 12:58 PM

Hold Monster affects any living creature. (As V says, "We are all in the monster manual somewhere, are we not?")

Humans aren't in the monster manual.

Simanos

2009-05-23, 01:03 PM

Humans aren't in the monster manual.
Just in case you're being serious, the actual spells says "any living creature" not whatever is in the MM. Hmm, does that mean it doesn't affect undead or constructs? I think it used to in 2nd edition. Though there's always been a Hold Undead spell too (and lower level too).

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 01:08 PM

Except it would just create a 2 square by 2 square hole 2 squares deep. Chances are that room is way bigger, and at the time he could cast it, O-chul would have been more than 10 feet away. All in all not a bad plan. You must just not like creativity.

The difference between creativity and nonsense is a fine line.

For ex, just how do you propose to create a 10x10x10 pit in a tower floor?

In my previous post I stated it was, overall, not a bad play for Redcloak because it would play to O-Chul's Reflex save not his Fort save. If O-Chul does not make his Reflex save he falls the floor below and Redcloak is safe. Effectively, if O-Chul fails his save, it is like Redcloak using an escape spell like Word of Recall or Ethereal Jaunt, except it is O-Chul who leaves the scene (though the escape is only momentary).

Wall of Stone, depending on circumstances, may have been the best choice because it may be able to limit O-Chul's movement with no save.

But Disintegrate should not result is some kind of insta-kill with no save.

And creativity is not the same as unfairness. If you open a hole under O-Chul, why should be not get a save? If O-Chul falls in a 10x10x10 pit (say Disintegrate was cast in a dungeon or outside), why should he have no chance of getting out?

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 01:11 PM

Its not intended to be fair - its intended to be effective. And its hardly the only spell of that level that can screw fighter types over instantly. We've already noted that Wall of Stone could trap him just as thoroughly with a reflex save more difficult than the pit trap one you proposed. Other spells, some of even lower level, will outright kill him if he fails a save.

No I meant, if a player fell in a 10x10x10 pit, I would most certainly give a chance to climb out. Why not O-Chul?

I don't think he's allowed to target objects that are "attended" (held/worn/etc) by another creature with a ranged attack like Disintegrate without the non-Core feat Ranged Sunder.

So then Xykon should not have been able to shatter Roy's sword.

Zevox

2009-05-23, 01:24 PM

Just in case you're being serious, the actual spells says "any living creature" not whatever is in the MM. Hmm, does that mean it doesn't affect undead or constructs? I think it used to in 2nd edition. Though there's always been a Hold Undead spell too (and lower level too).
Correct, Hold Monster does not work on non-living creatures, like Undead or Constructs. Of course, Undead and Constructs have built-in paralysis immunity anyway, so they couldn't be held even if the spell didn't use the term "living creature."

No I meant, if a player fell in a 10x10x10 pit, I would most certainly give a chance to climb out. Why not O-Chul?
Because this one was created by a disintegrate spell, and thus would likely have completely vertical walls with no handholds/footholds to use to scale it. As mentioned before. I wouldn't give a player a chance to climb out of that without a rope or something to aid in the climb, and probably help from his allies. But of course, I likely wouldn't use such a trick on a player unless I knew they had a way out anyway.

So then Xykon should not have been able to shatter Roy's sword.
Shatter doesn't involve a ranged attack, it just targets the object directly.

Zevox

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 01:36 PM

OK I read you other posts in this thread and I have to say you are the one with the problematic DM (or you are that DM in fact).

No I am a good DM. This thread is illustrative of something. Some posters stated that in the heat of battle RC used a less than effective spell. The some posters stated that RC should disintegrate the floor...even though they had plenty of time to think about it. So I say OK, disintegrate the floor means that, disintegrate the floor. Then it is claimed, that it was meant only a section of the floor should be disintegrated. This happens all the time in a game. Then when I say, well if you are just opening up a 10x10 square hole in the floor -- sort of what would happen if he would step on a pit trap -- O-Chul should a save or fall 20 feet down to the next floor, then you say that is not fair? So what exactly is fair to you? Redcloak should be able to use Disintegrate and trap O-Chul in a tower tower floor without a save?

And no O-Chul would not get a reflex save because gravity doesn't allow saves.

Fine, next time your character falls into a pit, no save. Do not confuse creativity with unfairness.

As for disintegrating the weapon I'm pretty sure you're wrong again, calculating its AC like that. It's not an unattended object or simply carried, it's a wielded weapon and you have to use sunder rules.

How would you apply the Sunder rules with a Ray? Or how would you calculate the AC then? O-Chul's touch AC is 10 + Dex and he is running and dodging. He can give his sword a better AC because he's wielding it? Maybe you mean it's harder to his because it's smaller. Well then the touch AC would be 10 + Dex + Size.

At the very least it's as hard to affect the weapon as O-Chul (if not harder) and 5d6 are not going to easily destroy it when iron has 10 hardness and 30 hitpoints per inch of thickness.

Correct, and someone ninja'ed me to that statement, that the sword would get O-Chul's save. That's in the same post where I gave the AC. So I was saying, it would be a ranged touch to hit and then a Fort save (with O-Chul's check). However, to nitpick, I don't think hardness would apply and its hit points would be more like an that of another all-metal weapon which by the RAW is 20 HP. So 5d6 has some chance of disintegrating it.

PS Good cath on Hold Monster to whoever came up with it.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 01:52 PM

Because this one was created by a disintegrate spell, and thus would likely have completely vertical walls with no handholds/footholds to use to scale it. As mentioned before. I wouldn't give a player a chance to climb out of that without a rope or something to aid in the climb, and probably help from his allies. But of course, I likely wouldn't use such a trick on a player unless I knew they had a way out anyway.

If you notice the description of rough wall in the RAW it says a brick wall is rough. How many of us can climb a brick wall? It's certainly does not have enough handholds for me physically. But there are people who can do that. Now take a character like O-Chul who can survive a bite from an acid-breathing shark in tank full of acid and still fight. I would say he is the kind of character who might find a way to climb out a 10 foot pit. And what in the description of disintegrate nothing says the walls are left "perfectly" smooth. So that is an assumption on your part.

So how do we judge this situation fairly? (The one not in the tower because you can't create a 10x10x10 pit in a tower floor, but one in which you cast Disintegrate, say, on a dungeon floor.) The climb rules say a rough wall is DC 25 with a corner it's 5 less, trying to climb at half speed is 5 more. So basically the PC or NPC in the pit has a tough climb DC unless he has huge strength or lots of skills in ranks or some other means of escape. And while he is trying climb out, the caster has more or less a free round. And this is unfair to you?

Shatter doesn't involve a ranged attack, it just targets the object directly.
Zevox
So a spell with a target effect can hit O-Chul's weapon. And someone with a meelee weapon can try to Sunder it, which requires them to hit the weapon. Or someone with Ranged Sunder can do the same. But someone with a Ray spell with a touch attack, can't target O-Chul's weapon? Where does it say that in the RAW?

FatJose

2009-05-23, 02:00 PM

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 02:07 PM

Yes, the person I quoted said that, not being serious. Where's Hold Undead? I dont see it. There's a Hide Undead but that's it.

It's Halt Undead, Sor/Wiz 3.

Optimystik

2009-05-23, 02:21 PM

Did anyone mention Destruction yet? He knows that one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) Shatter on O-Chul's bar would also work, and doesn't require an attack roll. He used it in SoD.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 02:24 PM

Godskook

2009-05-23, 02:33 PM

Flickerdart

2009-05-23, 02:43 PM

Did anyone mention Destruction yet? He knows that one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) Shatter on O-Chul's bar would also work, and doesn't require an attack roll. He used it in SoD.
Clerics know all spells, of course he knows it. He just didn't prepare it, possibly, not expecting to be attacked. Word of Recall, True Seeing, Greater Dispel? Utility. Disintegrate? Domain slot. Magic for killing things? While in a city occupied by an allied army, with an Epic Lich Sorcerer at the helm? Bare minimum, if any at all.

ericgrau

2009-05-23, 02:44 PM

blasphemy requires O-Chul to be awfully low level, otherwise it only buys RC the round it took him to cast it. Yay?

A wall of stone will go down with a single power attack. Also unlikely that RC normally has a use for such a spell, so it wouldn't be prepared. Ditto for repulsion and antilife shell, though those might actually work.

Disintegrate on the floor gives O-Chul a DC 15 reflex save to catch the ledge, as mentioned. That isn't just for pit traps; the same DC is given for ledges in general in other rules. That's far lower than the DC for disintegrate, so it doesn't really help that's it's reflex not fort. Then either he ends up on the tower floor below or in a pit that's easy to get out of. DC 16 jump check to jump 2 feet in the air then reach up another 8 feet to grab the ledge. Retry ok. Disintegrate on his weapon is a ranged sunder, which is against the rules. OTOH it's been done before in OotS. But O-Chul could still snatch the holy symbol and unarmed strike smite the goblin with pretty much the same attack bonus as an improvised weapon.

The best suggestion I've seen so far is another high level damage spell with a reflex save to do a little more damage, but still not enough.

Volkov

2009-05-23, 03:02 PM

Zevox

2009-05-23, 03:21 PM

And what in the description of disintegrate nothing says the walls are left "perfectly" smooth. So that is an assumption on your part
Yes it is. The way I figure it, a spell like disintegrate will remove precisely the area described in the spell, perfectly. Which would thus mean the walls are perfectly smooth and vertical. You're free to disagree, but that's the way I imagine it.

because you can't create a 10x10x10 pit in a tower floor
And why not? If the floor is that thick, it certainly should work. If the floor is less than or exactly 10' thick, all it would mean is that the hole would dump him down to the next floor. Which works fine as well.

The climb rules say a rough wall is DC 25 with a corner it's 5 less, trying to climb at half speed is 5 more. So basically the PC or NPC in the pit has a tough climb DC unless he has huge strength or lots of skills in ranks or some other means of escape. And while he is trying climb out, the caster has more or less a free round. And this is unfair to you?
I see it as illogical, because I do no envision a spell like disintegrate as leaving a surface that is anything but precisely disintegrated area, and thus the pit so created as having perfectly smooth walls. It seems to me that the fairness of the situation is covered by the pit-trap reflex save you proposed and the fact that there are other ways to get out of such a pit.

So a spell with a target effect can hit O-Chul's weapon. And someone with a meelee weapon can try to Sunder it, which requires them to hit the weapon. Or someone with Ranged Sunder can do the same. But someone with a Ray spell with a touch attack, can't target O-Chul's weapon? Where does it say that in the RAW?
Because attacking an attended object with anything that uses an attack roll is, by definition, an application of the Sunder rules, which do not allow sundering with a ranged attack, only melee. Ranged Sunder bypasses this, but as an obscure non-Core feat with minimal benefits to him, odds are that Redcloak would not have it.

Did anyone mention Destruction yet? He knows that one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) Shatter on O-Chul's bar would also work, and doesn't require an attack roll. He used it in SoD.
That one allows a fortitude save, though. It's no more likely to be effective than Disintegrate was. (And technically, Redcloak "knows" all the Cleric spells - he can choose from any of them that aren't good- or chaotic-aligned when preparing his spells, and only has those restrictions because he himself is lawful evil.)

That 10ft hole only requires O-Chul to make a DC 16 jump check.
I'm not sure where you're getting that one. The PHB/SRD rules for jumping only give high jump DCs up to 8 feet, and that's already DC 32. And those DCs get doubled without a 20' running start, which he couldn't get in a hole only 10' wide and long. No way is he jumping his way out of that one without maxed out ranks, a high strength score, and some sort of hefty magical boost to his jump skill.

blasphemy requires O-Chul to be awfully low level, otherwise it only buys RC the round it took him to cast it. Yay?
But that one round of being stunned could be spent by Redcloak retrieving his holy symbol and casting a Heal or Cure Critical Wounds spell on himself, which would be a game-changer. And that 2d6 strength penalty O-Chul would suffer would last 2-8 rounds, and significantly hamper his combat prowess.

And its hardly unrealistic for O-Chul to be 5 or more levels below Redcloak. Redcloak is quite high level, at least 15. We don't have enough information about O-Chul to pin down his level, but 10 doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me. And if Redcloak is above 15 and we just haven't gotten the evidence to show it yet, its even easier to imagine. Frankly, if Redcloak is 17 or higher, I'd say its very likely.

A wall of stone will go down with a single power attack.
Not if Redcloak makes it thick enough.

Zevox

Volkov

2009-05-23, 03:28 PM

Yes it is. The way I figure it, a spell like disintegrate will remove precisely the area described in the spell, perfectly. Which would thus mean the walls are perfectly smooth and vertical. You're free to disagree, but that's the way I imagine it.

And why not? If the floor is that thick, it certainly should work. If the floor is less than or exactly 10' thick, all it would mean is that the hole would dump him down to the next floor. Which works fine as well.

I see it as illogical, because I do no envision a spell like disintegrate as leaving a surface that is anything but precisely disintegrated area, and thus the pit so created as having perfectly smooth walls. It seems to me that the fairness of the situation is covered by the pit-trap reflex save you proposed and the fact that there are other ways to get out of such a pit.

Because attacking an attended object with anything that uses an attack roll is, by definition, an application of the Sunder rules, which do not allow sundering with a ranged attack, only melee. Ranged Sunder bypasses this, but as an obscure non-Core feat with minimal benefits to him, odds are that Redcloak would not have it.

That one allows a fortitude save, though. It's no more likely to be effective than Disintegrate was. (And technically, Redcloak "knows" all the Cleric spells - he can choose from any of them that aren't good- or chaotic-aligned when preparing his spells, and only has those restrictions because he himself is lawful evil.)

I'm not sure where you're getting that one. The PHB/SRD rules for jumping only give high jump DCs up to 8 feet, and that's already DC 32. And those DCs get doubled without a 20' running start, which he couldn't get in a hole only 10' wide and long. No way is he jumping his way out of that one without maxed out ranks, a high strength score, and some sort of hefty magical boost to his jump skill.

But that one round of being stunned could be spent by Redcloak retrieving his holy symbol and casting a Heal or Cure Critical Wounds spell on himself, which would be a game-changer. And that 2d6 strength penalty O-Chul would suffer would last 2-8 rounds, and significantly hamper his combat prowess.

And its hardly unrealistic for O-Chul to be 5 or more levels below Redcloak. Redcloak is quite high level, at least 15. We don't have enough information about O-Chul to pin down his level, but 10 doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me. And if Redcloak is above 15 and we just haven't gotten the evidence to show it yet, its even easier to imagine. Frankly, if Redcloak is 17 or higher, I'd say its very likely.

Not if Redcloak makes it thick enough.

Zevox

Climbing a perfectly smooth wall requires a dc 70 climb check. Well beyond O-chul's ability.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-23, 03:35 PM

Yes it is. The way I figure it, a spell like disintegrate will remove precisely the area described in the spell, perfectly. Which would thus mean the walls are perfectly smooth and vertical. You're free to disagree, but that's the way I imagine it.

Find then we disagree on the RAI. But as another poster pointed to jump up to, grab the edge and pull himself up is a DC 16 jump check followed by another DC 15 climb check as per RAW.

And why not? If the floor is that thick, it certainly should work.

A floor of practically any material 10 foot thick is impossible heavy for a tower and a waste of space.

If the floor is less than or exactly 10' thick, all it would mean is that the hole would dump him down to the next floor. Which works fine as well.

Correct.

Because attacking an attended object with anything that uses an attack roll is, by definition, an application of the Sunder rules, which do not allow sundering with a ranged attack, only melee.

Which are for weapon to weapon interactions. Your basically saying Redcloak can target any tiny creature trying to protect itself but not O-Chul's weapon. Besides which, as someone else posted, Shatter would get better results. Why not Disintegrate?

I'm not sure where you're getting that one. The PHB/SRD rules for jumping only give high jump DCs up to 8 feet, and that's already DC 32. And those DCs get doubled without a 20' running start, which he couldn't get in a hole only 10' wide and long. No way is he jumping his way out of that one without maxed out ranks, a high strength score, and some sort of hefty magical boost to his jump skill.

He has 8 foot reach so he only needs to high jump 2 feet to reach the ledge which is a DC 8 x 2 for no running jump. It's in the RAW

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

High Jump

A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared.

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet.
Vertical Reach Creature Size Vertical Reach
Colossal 128 ft.
Gargantuan 64 ft.
Huge 32 ft.
Large 16 ft.
Medium 8 ft.
Small 4 ft.
Tiny 2 ft.
Diminutive 1 ft.
Fine ½ ft.

Obviously, the difficulty of reaching a given height varies according to the size of the character or creature. The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.)

Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.

Volkov

2009-05-23, 05:19 PM

He could have casted "Rock falls! Everyone dies!!" a no saving throw allowed instant kill spell. That's level 0, and takes a free action.

ericgrau

2009-05-23, 05:33 PM

A single power attack? That's B.S if I ever saw it.

Each 5-foot square of the wall has 15 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached.

Ah I thought it said the wall has 15 HP but it has 15 HP per inch an 1 inch per 4 caster levels. So probably 4 inches for 60 HP. Even so, O-Chul can still take it down in about 3 attacks, which still probably takes only 1 round. If it's twice as thick as normal then it takes two rounds. The spell doesn't specifically say you can do this, but it might be inferred from the context. But even at normal thickness a 10 foot high wall made by a 16th level caster would only be 40 feet long. 20 feet might not be long enough to block O-Chul.

I'm not sure where you're getting that one. The PHB/SRD rules for jumping only give high jump DCs up to 8 feet, and that's already DC 32. And those DCs get doubled without a 20' running start, which he couldn't get in a hole only 10' wide and long. No way is he jumping his way out of that one without maxed out ranks, a high strength score, and some sort of hefty magical boost to his jump skill.

Jump rules give a medium creature an 8 foot reach. O-Chul needs to jump 2 feet up, for a DC of 8 or 16. Common sense should at least make you think twice about this and check the rules again, or are you saying I need a DC 64 jump check whenever I get locked out and hop the 8 foot fence to my backyard? No, I don't bother running first.

But that one round of being stunned could be spent by Redcloak retrieving his holy symbol and casting a Heal or Cure Critical Wounds spell on himself, which would be a game-changer. And that 2d6 strength penalty O-Chul would suffer would last 2-8 rounds, and significantly hamper his combat prowess.

And its hardly unrealistic for O-Chul to be 5 or more levels below Redcloak. Redcloak is quite high level, at least 15. We don't have enough information about O-Chul to pin down his level, but 10 doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me. And if Redcloak is above 15 and we just haven't gotten the evidence to show it yet, its even easier to imagine. Frankly, if Redcloak is 17 or higher, I'd say its very likely.

He can't cast spells before he has retrieved his holy symbol. Any thing he could do during the round of daze he could do instead of casting blasphemy. So really it becomes equal to a quickened enfeeblement, for 7 strength damage on average. That'll hurt O-Chul's ability to damage RC a bit and RC might still cast one of the other spells suggested thus far, but disarming the holy symbol is still fairly likely. It's an easy check.

It's possible for O-Chul to be way lower than RC, but then that doesn't make for much of a dramatic fight. At level 10 a couple firestorms would take out O-Chul's HP, and RC would not even need to run.

Volkov

2009-05-23, 05:47 PM

Ah I thought it said the wall has 15 HP but it has 15 HP per inch an 1 inch per 4 caster levels. So probably 4 inches for 60 HP. Even so, O-Chul can still take it down in about 3 attacks, which still probably takes only 1 round. If it's twice as thick as normal then it takes two rounds. The spell doesn't specifically say you can do this, but it might be inferred from the context. But even at normal thickness a 10 foot high wall made by a 16th level caster would only be 40 feet long. 20 feet might not be long enough to block O-Chul.

Isn't there some form of penalty for using a slashing or piercing weapon against an object?

Flickerdart

2009-05-23, 05:51 PM

Isn't there some form of penalty for using a slashing or piercing weapon against an object?
An Improvised Spear can become an Improvised Club at a moment's notice.

Gwynfrid

2009-05-23, 07:07 PM

Yendor

2009-05-23, 07:10 PM

Of course, once badly wounded, lying prone and relieved of his symbol, Word of Recall is Redcloak's only valid solution. He has no reason whatsoever to want to die a hero. His underlings would certainly not resurrect him, but rather take his place ("hey, looks like a nice mantle, once you clean the blood off").

According to their rules, wouldn't they make O-Chul their new Supreme Leader? :smalltongue:

Nevadie

2009-05-23, 08:01 PM

Oh course no one has thought about a spell to get X's attention, that would possibly save the day.

Undead Prince

2009-05-23, 08:38 PM

Among the ideas proposed so far, the ones I like best are defensive, especially Antilife Shell (better than Repulsion, because the latter allows a Will save). Sure O-Chul might still do a lot of damage by throwing his iron bar, but after that he's out of options.

He won't be able to use Smite Evil with a ranged attack. So even if he has a STR of 18 and crits, it's only (8 weapon +4 STR [thrown weapon])*2 = 24 damage. And once he's thrown the bar into the Antilife Shell, he's got no more weapon. Whereas Redcloak is free to heal himself and pound O-Chul with Destructions.

Second best are attempts to restrain O-Chul through a well-shaped Wall of Stone or Disintegrating the floor. The problem with those two is the Reflex save. As DM, I would never allow a hole in the floor to catch someone without allowing a save, and the DC would be reasonable, for the reasons given by some commentators above. Wall of Stone's DC would be higher

Enclosing a mobile target in a Wall of Stone gives the target a Reflex save vs. DC 15. So at least 50% chance of failure (100% if we consider O-Chul's rolling 20s).

Most offensive solutions are weak, because, like Disintegrate, they allow a save. Destruction has a Fortitude save too. It is better than Disintegrate since damage is 10d6 in the event O-Chul saves, but that's nowhere good enough.

Destruction is a 7th level spell, at 16th level Redcloak should have it in spades. Four of them would likely kill O-Chul even if he saves every time.

I vote against Blasphemy for 2 reasons:
1) Redcloak has no reliable way to know what level O-Chul is. He has seen O-Chul survive incredibly tough challenges, so it is quite reasonable for him to overestimate his opponent's level. For all he knows, O-Chul might even be higher level than him !

Redcloak's probably knows O-Chul's physical stats down to the last hit point. He's the one torturing and healing him every day for [weeks? months?]. Remember, even Xykon managed to apply a spell precisely enough to leave O-Chul alive, but with negative hit points. Knowing the total amount of hit points, Constitution, and class (both paladin and fighter have the same d10 hit dice) is enough to estimate his level fairly accurately. And Redcloak, being the geeky scientific type, would definitely note these things.

2) Redcloak is worried (not unreasonably) that a bunch of elves may have breached the defenses. In that case, he is much better off saving his Blasphemy until the time he has a chance to cast it at a group of opponents (lower-level ones, presumably).

It was obvious Redcloak was scared witless by the charging paladin. With his own life in clear mortal peril, he would be wise to use the most powerful spell at his disposal.

I would also point out evidence to the opposite: if O-Chul was such a high-level character, why did he never cast any Paladin spells? At least a Bull's Strength would have been a great help against those iron bars. And paladins start receiving spells from level 4.

All-in-all, even though O-Chul probably gained some levels while imprisoned, he's still most likely well behind Redcloak. At least one level behind. That's why Blasphemy was reasonable, in my opinion.

I would propose something a bit different: use Summon Monster VI or VII to get a big monster (or several smaller ones) as a buffer in front of O-Chul. That might not be enough to win, but it would buy Redcloak a couple of rounds to regroup, try some offensive spells, get Xykon's attention, or call for other help.

Yes, that's a good alternative. Although I'd prefer Redcloak not running for help but dealing with the problem himself.

So this is my take:

ROUND 1

:redcloak: Blasphemy.
:redcloak: [Move 20ft away]

O-Chul: [dazed for 1 round, -7 STR for 5 rounds, no save]

ROUND 2

:redcloak: Summon Monster VIII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVIII.htm): Bone Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#boneDevilOsyluth).
[Two Bone Devils appear next to O-Chul]
:redcloak: [telepathic communication with Devils] Seal this paladin with yourselves within two Walls of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm). Renew the walls whenever the paladin breaks through one of them (do not forget 5ft steps to avoid Attacks of Opportunity). Position yourselves to get Attacks of Opportunity on the paladin when he tries to move in my direction. Otherwise, engage him in melee combat.
:redcloak: [Move 20ft away]
[Devils encapsule O-Chul with themselves in two Walls of Ice.]

ROUND 3

:redcloak: Air Walk. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm)
:redcloak: [Moves above the engagement]
:redcloak: Next round - Destruction, paladin.

Undead Prince

2009-05-23, 08:47 PM

I summon, a thirsty russian and give the undead prince vodka in plain sight of the russian.

Heh, I am Russian.

So we'd just drink that vodka together.

Sadly, undead can't really enjoy their vodka anymore. But I'll still drink, for the company 8=)

Haven

2009-05-23, 09:02 PM

Humans aren't in the monster manual.

:smallannoyed: As long as we're taking things out of context to nitpick in a way that doesn't apply: that's only true in 3rd edition.

Nevadie

2009-05-23, 09:13 PM

You also have to remember, while we have days to think about what he could of used to stop him.

Red, had all of 1-2 seconds from the moment he saw O-chul to the point he HAD to act or get stabbed. I'm surprised he even got a spell off in time, chalk that up to a good initiative roll.

Which is instant proof that O-chul does not have weighted dice, cause if he did, he would of won initiative and destroyed Red before he got a spell off.

UNLESS of course, he decided he wanted to roll low just to prove how much of a bad ass he truly is.

Red XIV

2009-05-23, 09:20 PM

Blasphemy, then run to tsusiko, for help.
Redcloak? Run off to a human and say "I've been rendered helpless, please take care of the paladin with no armor and an improvised spear for me!"? Not going to to happen. His pride would never allow it.

Especially since Tsukiko hates Redcloak. She'd probably be more inclined to "accidentally" allow O-Chul to kill him so that she could take Redcloak's place as Xykon's lieutenant.

Gwynfrid

2009-05-23, 09:27 PM

He won't be able to use Smite Evil with a ranged attack.

Good point.

Enclosing a mobile target in a Wall of Stone gives the target a Reflex save vs. DC 15.

Should be DC15+Redcloak's Wisdom bonus, unless I'm missing something.

Destruction is a 7th level spell, at 16th level Redcloak should have it in spades. Four of them would likely kill O-Chul even if he saves every time.

Preparing four would be fairly crazy, given what else is available at that level: Blasphemy and Summon Monster VII, to name just two.

Knowing the total amount of hit points, Constitution, and class (both paladin and fighter have the same d10 hit dice) is enough to estimate his level fairly accurately. And Redcloak, being the geeky scientific type, would definitely note these things.

I'll grant you it would be in character. But as a DM, I would never allow that degree of metagaming to work. Now, that's just me.

I would also point out evidence to the opposite: if O-Chul was such a high-level character, why did he never cast any Paladin spells? At least a Bull's Strength would have been a great help against those iron bars.

But he doesn't have a symbol right now. He can't cast Bull's Strength. He could cast Bless Weapon to go after Xykon, though.

All-in-all, even though O-Chul probably gained some levels while imprisoned, he's still most likely well behind Redcloak. At least one level behind. That's why Blasphemy was reasonable, in my opinion.

Reasonable, but unlikely to afford him more than one additional round.

A
So this is my take:

ROUND 1

:redcloak: Blasphemy.
:redcloak: [Move 20ft away]

O-Chul: [dazed for 1 round, -7 STR for 5 rounds, no save]

ROUND 2

:redcloak: Summon Monster VIII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVIII.htm): Bone Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#boneDevilOsyluth).
[Two Bone Devils appear next to O-Chul]
:redcloak: [telepathic communication with Devils] Seal this paladin with yourselves within two Walls of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm). Renew the walls whenever the paladin breaks through one of them (do not forget 5ft steps to avoid Attacks of Opportunity). Position yourselves to get Attacks of Opportunity on the paladin when he tries to move in my direction. Otherwise, engage him in melee combat.
:redcloak: [Move 20ft away]
[Devils encapsule O-Chul with themselves in two Walls of Ice.]

ROUND 3

:redcloak: Air Walk. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm)
:redcloak: [Moves above the engagement]
:redcloak: Next round - Destruction, paladin.

A good solution overall. The Bone Devils are a nice touch. I would skip round 1 altogether, though. This Blasphemy is overkill and may be needed later (we know there are no other elves attacking, but Redcloak does not). At least pick Antilife Shell over Blasphemy if you think O-Chul can somehow bypass the devils.

Flickerdart

2009-05-23, 09:29 PM

Heh, I am Russian.

So we'd just drink that vodka together.

Sadly, undead can't really enjoy their vodka anymore. But I'll still drink, for the company 8=)
You need three to drink, man. And some pickles.

Undead Prince

2009-05-24, 08:48 AM

You need three to drink, man. And some pickles.

Hey, a bottle of vodka is perfectly drinkable by two. In fact, better.

The three persons trope came around since back in the 80s vodka in USSR usually cost about 3 roubles. So it was easy/convenient for three guys to pool money and get themselves a bottle to drink right away.

But for a real party, one bottle (0.5 litre) per three persons is not enough. One per two is better. However, we have a saying: "no matter how much vodka you buy, you'll still have to go to the store at least twice" 8=) and it's true most of the times *-))

Undead Prince

2009-05-24, 09:53 AM

Enclosing a mobile target in a Wall of Stone gives the target a Reflex save vs. DC 15.

Should be DC15+Redcloak's Wisdom bonus, unless I'm missing something.

Correct, DC 15 +all appropriate modifiers.

Preparing four would be fairly crazy, given what else is available at that level: Blasphemy and Summon Monster VII, to name just two.

It was just a numerical example. Summoned monsters would bring O-Chul's hp down, so fewer Destructions would be needed, Blasphemy would daze him allowing the monsters to bring his hp down some more, etc. But if we use only Destructions, four should probably do the trick even if he makes all saves (depending on his exact level and CON, of course).

I'll grant you it would be in character. But as a DM, I would never allow that degree of metagaming to work. Now, that's just me.

Again:

1. Redcloak's been torturing and healing O-Chul every day for a long time now. He should know how much healing O-Chul needs to bring him from negative hp to full health, for instance.

2. Xykon managed to bring O-Chul's hit points into the 10-hp range that exactly coincided with his bet. He used Ray of Frost to do this - a cantrip which does 1d3 damage, which would have been pointless unless Xykon knew O-Chul's hit points very well.

3. Class hit dice have been referenced several times by the characters.

Thus, it seems very likely that they would know his approximate level.

As for real games, although the characters don't exactly know the concept of levels, they are well aware of that which levels represent - overall experience and power. Having observed and experimented upon a creature for a long time would likely give the necessary knowledge to reveal its relative power, and would give adequate grounds for a decision on how a spell like Blasphemy would affect this character.

If characters were totally precluded from estimating other creatures' levels/hit dice, many spells and abilities would become entirely useless or completely random in effect.

But he doesn't have a symbol right now. He can't cast Bull's Strength.

If I played a character with paladin spellcasting in O-Chul's situation, I would try all ways to create a holy symbol. Scribing it on a wall or floor surface, cutting it into your own flesh - that sort of thing. Just roll Craft [something] every day until it works and the god finally deigns to take notice of his entroubled disciple. And judging by the Go sessions, O-Chul had plenty of time and low enough supervision to attempt this.

Complete Champion - a book specifically devoted to paladins & the like - has this to say on the subject: "In truth, many different types of holy symbols exist. Each incorporates the symbol of the deity in some way, but the styles and materials used can vary widely."

Complete Champion also has a simple 1st level Cleric/Paladin spell Summon Holy Symbol. That would've resolved the issue straight away.

He could cast Bless Weapon to go after Xykon, though.

Yes, or Cure Minor Wounds to heal himself whenever it was needed. We've never seen him perform any divine spellcasting (and he's obviously got Wisdom to spare). That means his Paladin level is likely lower than 4. So he'd have to be a 14th level fighter/3rd level paladin in order to be higher than Redcloak. That would make him a better fighter than Roy, and a paladin to boot. It would also make him 2 levels higher than the highest estimate for Miko, who was the toughest paladin in Azure City. Of course, being tortured might have given him a bunch of XP, but enough to advance three levels or more? Unlikely, especially given the fact that he didn't actually defeat anyone except maybe a few lowly hobgoblins.

Reasonable, but unlikely to afford him more than one additional round.

When affecting a character at least 1 level lower than the caster, Blasphemy not only dazes, but also Weakens the target: -2d6 STR ( -7 average) for 2d4 rounds (5 average). This would severely impede O-Chul's melee and wall-breaking capabilities: instead of STR 18 (+4 modifier), for instance, he'd have STR 11 (+0 modifier).

A good solution overall. The Bone Devils are a nice touch. I would skip round 1 altogether, though. This Blasphemy is overkill and may be needed later (we know there are no other elves attacking, but Redcloak does not).

It's not overkill, as it severely damages O-Chul's main weapon - Strength. And Redcloak has already dispatched Jirix to deal with the possible elven threat. If he believed the possible other elves were such a danger as to warrant Blasphemies, he'd have gone to patrol the grounds himself, sending Jirix to check the prisoner.

At least pick Antilife Shell over Blasphemy if you think O-Chul can somehow bypass the devils.

If Redcloak uses Antilife Shell instead of Blasphemy as his opener, he leaves O-Chul free to do the following:

1. Throw the iron bar as a javelin at Redcloak - and since O-Chul's rolling twenties, it would hurt. Although the bar wouldn't kill Red, it would perhaps still gouge out his eye. Not an optimal path, IMHO.

2. Run away: O-Chul can traverse 120 ft per round if running, which means he'll likely be out of the room next round, and Redcloak would have a hard time catching up with him.

Blasphemy immediately followed by the Bone Devils' Walls of Ice keep O-Chul rooted to the spot. Meanwhile Red will be free to buff himself up and either enjoy the show or cast a levitation spell such as Air Walk and pound O-Chul with spells from above.

Simanos

2009-05-24, 10:04 AM

...
Did you even read the Transmute Rock to Mud spell I linked?
There's no save there either. It sets a precedent. And a Disintegrate spell is not a pit trap. And pit traps aren't all the same. Some have a reflex save with 15 DC other 20 or more and others have no save. It depends on how the trap is designed.

Shatter doesn't involve a ranged attack, it just targets the object directly.
Doesn't the Shatter spell say:

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
So Roy's ancestral sword was not magical at that point?

That 10ft hole only requires O-Chul to make a DC 16 jump check. Starting as a fighter, he probably has 5+ ranks in jump, and his favoring of heavier melee weapons means he probably has decent strength modifier. He'll make the check 50% of the time rather easily. With some effort in that regard, he'd make it before he rolled, assuming he didn't roll a 1, and O-Chul doesn't roll 1s unless he wants to.
Yeah a 10 foot pit with smooth walls is not a death sentence even to someone with no magic powers. All it takes is to jump and grab the edge and pull yourself up. I would also allow tumbling and the use of a corner to help with this. Though it's kinda harder if someone readies to knock you back down in the middle of it. And in this case it would not be a 10 foot pit, but a trip to the next floor wherever that is. :smallcool:

BTW, Undead Prince, I'm pretty sure Summoning Monsters has 1 round casting time so your plans won't work exactly like that.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-24, 11:54 AM

Did you even read the Transmute Rock to Mud spell I linked?
There's no save there either. It sets a precedent.

No. You fail to understand how magic works in D&D and by magic I a mean the game mechanics of magic.

Transmute Rock to Mud is a battle field control spell which "A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a -2 penalty on attack rolls and AC."

Sot it reduces movement and combat effectiveness. In this way it's similarly mechanically to other spells like Solid Fog and Wave of Fatigue which have no save (notice these spells have different fluff).

And a Disintegrate spell is not a pit trap.

But the game-mechanical effect (victim is trapped) is the same and so the victim gets a reflex save. Notice that Transmute Mud to Rock is another trapping spell and thus allows a reflex save.

And pit traps aren't all the same. Some have a reflex save with 15 DC other 20 or more and others have no save. It depends on how the trap is designed.

That does not depend on the trap construction but on the trap CR. Why should disintegrate be able to auto make a high CR pit trap.

Doesn't the Shatter spell say:

So Roy's ancestral sword was not magical at that point?

What's that got to do with how you target a sword like object. Targetting and effect are different things.

Volkov

2009-05-24, 12:00 PM

Heh, I am Russian.

So we'd just drink that vodka together.

Sadly, undead can't really enjoy their vodka anymore. But I'll still drink, for the company 8=)

Dangit, wait your Russian as well? I thought I was the only one.

brilliantlight

2009-05-24, 12:15 PM

Depending on level, Blasphemy is pretty good. If, say, RC is level 17 and O-Chul is 12, then its a will save or be paralyzed.

Repulsion also 7th, is a will save and keeps O-Chul at bay until someone else can help.

Anti-life shell is 6th level but even better against O-Chul since it's no save and keep's him 10 feet away.

But RC would have to have to have these memorized and we don't know what he's got. Plus RC is casting in the heat of the moment. Oh and he's fighting ironic justice...that's a tough one to beat.

Fire Storm is better if RC has 8th level spells but prob does not stop O-Chul either.

Not a cleric or domain spell RC would know and it's a will save followed by a fort save. What you think Save or Die comes cheap at 4th level?

Yeah, O-Chul would probably pass both He seems to have high wisdom and constitution and a paladin's fort saves are good. If he has even a mediocre charisma of 12 he gets a +1 for his saves as well.

Volkov

2009-05-24, 01:07 PM

Not to derail the thread but dang my promotion to barbarian was fast.

hamishspence

2009-05-24, 01:11 PM

I think there is a rule somewhere saying we aren't supposed to make a fuss about titles.

Volkov

2009-05-24, 01:26 PM

Any way, he could have casted greater invisibility and run away.

hamishspence

2009-05-24, 01:28 PM

And probably been followable- O-chul could have chased the sound of receding footsteps.

Volkov

2009-05-24, 01:29 PM

And probably been followable- O-chul could have chased the sound of receding footsteps.

He could run to tsusiko, or a bunch of hob goblins.

hamishspence

2009-05-24, 01:31 PM

true. We don't know where he Recalled to- could be within tower, where he can load up on wargear, and come back with Tsusiko & goblins.

Simanos

2009-05-24, 01:50 PM

...
The point is both literally remove the floor from under your feet with magic. Why doesn't Transmute Rock to Mud allow a reflex save to jump to safety too?

The game-mechanical effect (victim is trapped) is the same only because you choose to say it is the same. I disagree.
Also Transmute Rock to Mud doesn't allow a reflex save in its trapping version, only when you target it on the ceiling to cause cave-in damage. You utterly fail to prove Disintegrate is a pit trap so far.

Trap CR does depend on trap construction. You got it backwards. You don't arbitrarily apply stats to a trap. You decide the CR of the trap based on how you (the DM) made it. Disintegrate should be able to make a high CR trap because it isn't a trap, it's a spell that instantly evaporates the floor you are walking on. With a normal pit trap you can be at the edge of it (instead of dead centre) or you might hear the mechanism just before it goes of an react or it doesn't happen so instantly and can still push a bit on the falling trap door surface with your feet to reach a place of safety.

About Shatter you missed the point again, but I'm not surprised. Anyway my comment on that was directed to Zevox, so I don't really care if you understood it or not. :smallcool:

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-24, 02:18 PM

The point is

The point is to have fun. Look several posters here who are knowledgeable, not just myself, have stated that the "standard" interpretation of disintegrating the floor beneath an opponent is to give the opponent a reflex save. But hey, if you are the DM and you want to rule it your way, that is fine. As long as you and your players are having fun, then you are all doing things the right way.

As for the rules argument, you can have the last word.

Undead Prince

2009-05-24, 03:46 PM

BTW, Undead Prince, I'm pretty sure Summoning Monsters has 1 round casting time so your plans won't work exactly like that.

It's a full-round action, but, sure enough, the effect takes place in the beginning of the next round... so, right you are, not an optimal choice when facing a charging O-Chul.

Blasphemy + Anti-Life Shell it is, then. Blasphemy still good for mitigating the damage from the thrown bar and for making O-Chul easier to take down later on by seriously gimping his combat stat - STR.

But after that, summoning Bone Devils would be a good move, IMHO, especially in terms of preventing O-Chul from escaping. Yes, Red gives him a round of running while the spell's being cast, but the spell range would be 65 ft, and the Devils can instantly cast their own Walls of Ice around O-Chul, containing the escapee.

Dangit, wait your Russian as well? I thought I was the only one.

No, there are about 142 million of us in Russia alone 8=) you should come over some time.

Undead Prince

2009-05-24, 04:10 PM

The point is both literally remove the floor from under your feet with magic. Why doesn't Transmute Rock to Mud allow a reflex save to jump to safety too?

Disintegrate affects one 10ft cube. TRtM affects two 10ft cubes per level. Mayhap therein lies the distinction? At the lowest castable level, TRtM would transform into mud a surface of 1800 square feet. The intended target wouldn't have anywhere to leap away - there's mud all around.

Now, an example from this same thread: Wall of Stone allows Reflex saves to avoid being entrapped by the Wall, although it's created as instantly as Disintegrate destroys the floor.

There's also the general rule: Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm) Using Disintegrate to destroy the floor under a creature would definitely be both unusual and magical, so although this precise attack is not specifically regulated in the rules, it should be adjudicated in accordance with the general rule and by analogy with other spells.

You have to take into account that even though characters perform actions in turn, they are considered to act simultaneously. So the intended target won't be standing still for six seconds while the floor's being disintegrated; it would jump and twist and grab at edges & whatnot. If Disintegrate affected the entire floor, like Transmute Rock to Mud, then the creature would have no chance; but a 10ft square hole is not that large and can be cleared with a reasonable jump, so a Reflex save would be both logical and in the spirit of the rules.

Disintegrate should be able to make a high CR trap because it isn't a trap, it's a spell that instantly evaporates the floor you are walking on.

It's not actually instant in the eyes of the beholder. Casting the spell takes a Standard Action, then the caster points his finger and a green beam hits the surface, and then the hole appears. So the intented target does have hints as to the nature of the danger. Same as with area-effect spells like Fireball - the effect takes place on your turn, but the targets still get their Reflex saves.

Gwynfrid

2009-05-24, 04:14 PM

It's a full-round action, but, sure enough, the effect takes place in the beginning of the next round... so, right you are, not an optimal choice when facing a charging O-Chul.

Good point, I should not have forgotten that.

Blasphemy + Anti-Life Shell it is, then. Blasphemy still good for mitigating the damage from the thrown bar and for making O-Chul easier to take down later on by seriously gimping his combat stat - STR.

Anti-Life Shell is probably good enough. Throwing the bar means no Smite Evil and no Power Attack. Even a two-handed critical hit could not deal more than 30 damage or so, and that is stretching it, since O-Chul has no STR buff. And if he does throw it, then he has lost his weapon for good.

Flickerdart

2009-05-24, 04:18 PM

Dangit, wait your Russian as well? I thought I was the only one.
There's quite a few of us here. Rubakhin was, too, but I don't see him around anymore.

If only O-chul had a 10ft pole, he could reach through the Antilife shell.

King of Nowhere

2009-05-24, 05:50 PM

It's not actually instant in the eyes of the beholder. Casting the spell takes a Standard Action, then the caster points his finger and a green beam hits the surface, and then the hole appears. So the intented target does have hints as to the nature of the danger. Same as with area-effect spells like Fireball - the effect takes place on your turn, but the targets still get their Reflex saves.

Not to mention that you can actually dodge a disintegrate, so that ray can't be too quick.

Anyone tougth of hold person? All those anti-life shell and wall of stone are spells that Redcloak probably has not prepared, while he probably has a hold person at disposal (he should have, like, 7 2nd level slots, + the domain slot).
Assuming a realistic wis of +7 (may be higher, but just for the assumption) it would require a 19 to save, and O-Chul has a will save of +4 (probably) base, +wis modifier, + eventually iron will. Even in the most favorable conditions, O-Chul has an even chance of saving, a quarter in the worst scenario.
So probably it won't work too well, especially considering O-Chul gets a new save every round, but it could have been the most reliable chance if Redcloak lacks the rigth high level spells prepared. Buy a few time to escape, or to hit harder.
Probably destruction would have stood a greater chance of working.

I wonder what kind of CA Redcloak is sporting. He's a cleric, he should be a walking can. He surely should have a CA high enough to resist effectively the attacks of a 12ish level fighter type without magic equipment, instead O-Chul hits easily.

It seems both Redcloak and Xykon are vastly understimating fighter types. The traps was setted against someone using arcane magic, Redcloak never invested in decent protective gear, Xykon building himself against casters...
By the way, that also means that Redcloak probably has not prepared those spells, since they're oreinted to fight a melee, nonmagical threat. Summon monster, probably he's got some prepared.
I can't help but feel that this way of thinking will be their demise (well, that and the fact that Roy is the main character...)

Secris

2009-05-24, 06:55 PM

It seems both Redcloak and Xykon are vastly understimating fighter types. The traps was setted against someone using arcane magic, Redcloak never invested in decent protective gear, Xykon building himself against casters...

...

I can't help but feel that this way of thinking will be their demise (well, that and the fact that Roy is the main character...)

V isn't the only arrogant one, even if she shows it even more than Xykon. Casters generally believe that magic, be it arcane or divine, is the way to go. That's why they chose caster classes. The same probably applies to melee sorts as well.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-24, 11:20 PM

V isn't the only arrogant one, even if she shows it even more than Xykon. Casters generally believe that magic, be it arcane or divine, is the way to go. That's why they chose caster classes. The same probably applies to melee sorts as well.

Well, there's a reason for this.

The casters are right.

Wizards start out kind of weak. They get three spells, and 3 encounters between rests. Around level 3-5 they come up even with the melee types. After that they're doing most of the damage/killing while the fighters are just body guarding for them.

When you hit Level 13, everyone is flying, teleporting, dimension dooring all over the place. The monsters become save or die every round, and the only thing fast enough to put them down is a spellcaster doing the same. Move up and whack once for 40 points of damage just doesn't cut it. The fighter is more of a distraction than an actual threat.

Now move on to epic and linear warriors quadratic wizards doesn't even begin to describe it. ANYTHING the fighter can do, the wizard can do better with the right epic spell. Armor class, hit points, survivability and most importantly lethal damage and save or die (or just die) can be sent through the roof.

Undead Prince

2009-05-25, 03:39 AM

Not to mention that you can actually dodge a disintegrate, so that ray can't be too quick.

Yep, a ranged touch attack. So, even more arguments point towards the necessity of a Reflex save.

Anyone tougth of hold person? All those anti-life shell and wall of stone are spells that Redcloak probably has not prepared, while he probably has a hold person at disposal (he should have, like, 7 2nd level slots, + the domain slot).
Assuming a realistic wis of +7 (may be higher, but just for the assumption) it would require a 19 to save, and O-Chul has a will save of +4 (probably) base, +wis modifier, + eventually iron will. Even in the most favorable conditions, O-Chul has an even chance of saving, a quarter in the worst scenario.

1. Sure, people thought of it.

2. Hold Monster, a level 6 Law domain spell, is better as it offers +4 DC over Hold Person (and is not limited to only humanoids, which is irrelevant in the present situation but bumps up its general usefulness). Redcloak would likely have it prepared, too, as his other Domain spell for this level is Harm - a common cleric spell and not terribly useful overall.

3. Using a Will save based spell against a character with high Wisdom while being in a life-or-death situation is not optimal. Even a 25% chance is too great a risk, and remember, O-Chul's rolling twenties.

So probably it won't work too well, especially considering O-Chul gets a new save every round, but it could have been the most reliable chance if Redcloak lacks the rigth high level spells prepared.

It's no more reliable than a Disintegrate, which gets +5 DC over Hold Person, being a 7th level spell, and the difference between O-Chul's base Fort and base Will at this level is only +4.

Probably destruction would have stood a greater chance of working.

Destruction would have the exact same chance of working as the Disintegrate. I.e. it wouldn't work.

I wonder what kind of CA Redcloak is sporting. He's a cleric, he should be a walking can. He surely should have a CA high enough to resist effectively the attacks of a 12ish level fighter type without magic equipment, instead O-Chul hits easily.

Don't you mean AC?

And Redcloak CoDzilla ain't. He wasn't even wearing heavy armor on that occasion (no shoulder plates).

It seems both Redcloak and Xykon are vastly understimating fighter types. The traps was setted against someone using arcane magic, Redcloak never invested in decent protective gear, Xykon building himself against casters...

Well, only someone with Teleport could get straight into the throne room bypassing walls & gates, and teleportation is generally the realm of arcane casters (with only one clerical domain offering it).

Xykon sure enough has Deflection and Dodge AC on him, so he's probably using magic items that would protect agaisnt melee attacks as well.

Redcloak, sure, always did strike me as totally un-CoDzillaish. He's got the mindset of a Cloistered Cleric without the features of one. But we can't say he didn't sport some AC-boosting magic items - remember, O-Chul got a critical hit, which succeeds regardless of how high AC is.

By the way, that also means that Redcloak probably has not prepared those spells, since they're oreinted to fight a melee, nonmagical threat. Summon monster, probably he's got some prepared.

Blasphemy and Anti-Life Shell are excellent all-around spells when you're in the evil business. Hold Person is nice for a low level spell when your enemies are mainly humanoid (and Red's are); Hold Monster is not bad at 6th level as well for someone who can churn out a high DC (and Red can); Destruction is a good direct damage spell, as it's ranged, doesn't require an attack roll, kills instantly on a failed save, and does as much damage as a 10th level Fireball even if the target saves. The Hold spells are less useful against casters, but arcanes usually don't invest much in Wisdom, so it might work.

I can't help but feel that this way of thinking will be their demise (well, that and the fact that Roy is the main character...)

Well, now Xykon and Red's butts were both kicked by melee fighters (Roy & O-Chul, respectively). But I think in the decisive confrontation, teamwork will be the key to victory (as both Roy and V failed against Xykon mano-a-mano).

Undead Prince

2009-05-25, 03:59 AM

Wizards start out kind of weak. They get three spells

They also get Scribe Scroll, and can have a bunch of six-spell scrolls (I call 'em "six-shooters") when they go into their first dungeon - assuming one would want to go dungeoneering with a 1st level wizard (and one really shouldn't, I believe).

Generally the best level to start dungeon-crawling for a wizard is 3rd - that's when you get the spells that really keep you alive (Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, False Life, Darkvision, Levitation etc) and by then you can accumulate enough money through scrollmaking so as to positively brim with six-shooters. 5 scrolls would contain 15 2nd level and 15 1st level spells, take only 5 days to make, and with Magical Artisan would be cheap as hell.

Up until then, just get easy XP by doing non-combat quests around towns and butchering various animals with the help of your hired goons 8=))

Oh yes, and the hired goons are a big help in the dungeons as well.

and 3 encounters between rests.

You don't have to go adventuring at this level. See above.

When you hit Level 13, everyone is flying, teleporting, dimension dooring all over the place.

Including the fighters, right?

The monsters become save or die every round, and the only thing fast enough to put them down is a spellcaster doing the same.

There also appear a lot of monsters with spell resistance, and even immunity to magic (constructs?). When your spells have only a 50% chance of working or don't work at all, the trusty blade will do the trick (and provide a nice meatshield).

Move up and whack once for 40 points of damage just doesn't cut it.

40 points of damage? At level 13? Come on.

The fighter is more of a distraction than an actual threat.

A good charging build with a command word item of 14th level Phantom Steed (we are talking 13th level characters here, right?) can do a lot of ownage at this point. Slap a See Invisibility continuous item on him, take a level of Cleric w/Magic Domain and a lance with a wand of Wraithstrike inside, & there you go - caster-killer, monster-killer, you name it. I won't even start on the Tome of Battle goodness.

And this isn't even one of those optimised builds which output thousands of damage per round. And not mentioning Leadership at all.

Now move on to epic and linear warriors quadratic wizards doesn't even begin to describe it. ANYTHING the fighter can do, the wizard can do better with the right epic spell. Armor class, hit points, survivability and most importantly lethal damage and save or die (or just die) can be sent through the roof.

Let's not go epic, shall we? AMF at will and immunity to divinations via the proper magic items would deal with most of the threats, and everything else requires a detailed discussion which would only clog the thread.

Suffice to say, meleeists can hold their own. And don't forget the amount of time and money it takes to develop epic spells, and that any epic spell that's really worth something is uncastable without serious Spellcraft cheesing.

King of Nowhere

2009-05-25, 04:45 AM

1. Sure, people thought of it.

2. Hold Monster, a level 6 Law domain spell, is better as it offers +4 DC over Hold Person (and is not limited to only humanoids, which is irrelevant in the present situation but bumps up its general usefulness). Redcloak would likely have it prepared, too, as his other Domain spell for this level is Harm - a common cleric spell and not terribly useful overall.

Yes, I forgot about hold monster. My bad

It's no more reliable than a Disintegrate, which gets +5 DC over Hold Person, being a 7th level spell, and the difference between O-Chul's base Fort and base Will at this level is only +4.

If O-Chul were a single class, yes. But being multiclass with two classes with high fortitude he gets a better base save. It's 2+0,5*level, and O-Chul get the +2 two times.
And anyway, given O-Chul's con, even the standard hold person stood a better chance of not saving. In fact, hold monster should give O-Chul like 0,25 chance.
Ok, blasphemy would be better, and probably Redcloak prepared it. Anti-life shell would work, but Redcloak may not have it prepared. It protects only against melee, so it would not work against a caster, so Redcloak may feel it's not so useful.
I'm just working on the hypotesys that Redcloak don't have prepared it.
So, ok, if we assume O-Chul roll 20 at every roll, there's not that much to do...

Destruction would have the exact same chance of working as the Disintegrate. I.e. it wouldn't work.

The chance of making the save would be the same (unless spell focus involved), yet O-Chul survives disintegrate even when failing the save (he may even be able to survive two disintegrate), when the same don't apply to destruction. And destruction would do more damage even on a succesful save, so no reason for Redcloak to not use it in place of disintegrate, except that he paniked.
Of course, O-Chul passed the save, so the outcome would have been the same.

Don't you mean AC?

Yes. I accidentally used the italian abbreviation

Well, now Xykon and Red's butts were both kicked by melee fighters (Roy & O-Chul, respectively). But I think in the decisive confrontation, teamwork will be the key to victory (as both Roy and V failed against Xykon mano-a-mano).
Not to mention Miko mopping the floor with Redcloak and (spoiler from extra material) The silver dragon in No cure for the paladin blues, that kicked both of them. Even if that dragon was powerful enough to not count it as a failure of the couple (he had a spell resistance high enough to resist Xykon), but as a level appropriate encounter for the dragon that just went wrong for bad rolls

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-25, 05:11 AM

King of Nowere

Dragons will often do that. They're a good bit harder than their CR's would indicate, partially because of their versatility. If you're strong on magic, they pin you to the ground. If you're big on melee, they keep you at a distance and blast you. They have a wizards offense and a warriors defense with no real weaknesses unless you go for not carefully reviewed spells with no saves.

Prowl

2009-05-25, 06:09 AM

Redcloak could have used Dancing Lights, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

Simanos

2009-05-25, 10:19 AM

It's a full-round action, but, sure enough, the effect takes place in the beginning of the next round... so, right you are, not an optimal choice when facing a charging O-Chul.
The biggest problem would be that with a 1 round casting time he would get full attacked by O-Chul and have to make many concentration checks. So first he has to stop O-chul some other way as you say later.

As for dodging rays, it doesn't have to be that they are slow. The attacker can aim badly, or the defender dodging left and right causes aiming to be harder. Not all bullets hit in real life and they are pretty fast too. At any rate I would not use a 15 DC reflex save for such a creative use of a spell that could otherwise kill an enemy and instead it is used in a fashion that merely inconveniences him. Why would you use 15 and not 20 or 25 as DC? There's no rule and going by Transmute Rock to Mud I would give no reflex save (it's a similar snare used this way). You say that it has a larger area (more than 40 foot square instead of 10), but if you catch multiple enemies with it surely some will be near the edges and able to reflex jump to safety and do not get reflex saves by the rules. As DM I would support the creativity instead of make the player wish he had targeted the enemy directly instead. Though it could create a bad precedent for a bridge situation...

BTW, Destruction is not the same as Disintegrate. It has no (ranged touch) attack roll, death instead of 40d6(max) of damage and 10d6 instead of 5d6 on a save. It only lacks in range, but that doesn't matter here. They're both 7th level spells for Clerics. The way I see it, RC used his domain spell slot which could only be Disintegrate since he has Destruction and not Death domain. He almost always has 1 Disintegrate memorized, but not a Destruction. Could be wrong though.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-25, 11:25 PM

There's no rule and going by Transmute Rock to Mud I would give no reflex save (it's a similar snare used this way)

Yes, but going by wall of X, every trap in the game, blade barrier, earthquake, Transmute Mud to Rock, and the basic concept of the game that you can't be completely screwed without some sort of opposed roll there should be a save.

Instead of solid ground, imagine the fight is taking place over a bridge 200 feet off the ground. Are you going to tell your players "Oh, the monster casts disintegrate under you, you fall to 20d6 damage, no save?" You might make it harder than those in the middle (+2 for every 5 feet they need to move) but spells that have no opposed roll should be very limited in their ability to affect people. Transmute mud to rock doesn't allow a save is balanced by it reducing movement (not stopping it), not preventing ranged attacks, and doing no damage

Endarire

2009-05-26, 12:15 AM

Wall of stone "must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone." Xykon's castle is probably made of stone, but doing so in that room may be problematic.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-26, 03:24 AM

For wall of stone, a stone floor is at it needs. There's no problem there.

Undead Prince

2009-05-26, 06:42 AM

The biggest problem would be that with a 1 round casting time he would get full attacked by O-Chul and have to make many concentration checks.

Yes, that's why I said Summon Monster would be a bad opener.

So first he has to stop O-chul some other way as you say later.

That's what I said. Wait, you already noticed that. Then why... eh, never mind.

As for dodging rays, it doesn't have to be that they are slow. The attacker can aim badly, or the defender dodging left and right causes aiming to be harder.

No one said the ray was slow, right? I said the caster had to go through a certain routine before the spell effect would take place. This gives the intended target a chance to avoid or mitigate the negative consequences (e.g.: dodge the ray with his Dodge AC; deflect it with his Deflection AC; jump away with the Reflex save; etc.).

At any rate I would not use a 15 DC reflex save

DC 15 +all appropriate modifiers.

for such a creative use of a spell that could otherwise kill an enemy and instead it is used in a fashion that merely inconveniences him.

Moving on.

And if there was a Bottomless Pit (TM), or a lake of lava, or a vat of acid under that floor? Or the spell didn't have a chance to work at the enemy (high Spell Resistance or something)? Would you have given it a lower DC? There goes your rule consistency.

Why would you use 15 and not 20 or 25 as DC?

1. Again: DC 15 + modifiers.

2. Because that's how spell DCs are calculated.

3. Because that's what the DC is in other cases of spells being used creatively to hinder intended targets rather than targeting them directly (example: Wall of Stone).

There's no rule and going by Transmute Rock to Mud I would give no reflex save (it's a similar snare used this way). You say that it has a larger area (more than 40 foot square instead of 10), but if you catch multiple enemies with it surely some will be near the edges and able to reflex jump to safety and do not get reflex saves by the rules.

This is a case clearly adjudicated by the rules. If it wasn't, perhaps the DM would rule that those near the edge of the affected area get a Reflex save. With Disintegrate, there is no such clear rule; so we have to go by a) General rule on saves; b) Examples of other spells (Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, to name but a few). TRtM does not go against this (due to its vast area of effect), except for fringe cases (heh, one more bad pun), which are clearly in the minority.

As DM I would support the creativity instead of make the player wish he had targeted the enemy directly instead. Though it could create a bad precedent for a bridge situation...

Yes, you see it now, do you? Sending an enemy to certain doom without a save or an attack roll (you'd have to be blind not to hit the floor with the ray).

BTW, Destruction is not the same as Disintegrate.

Did anyone ever say it was? I said it was "no more reliable than a Disintegrate" in the O-Chul situation. It has the same DC, so O-Chul would have saved, and 10d6 damage is a minor portion of his total hp (being immersed in acid deals 10d6 damage per round, and he swam there like he's in a pool). Redcloak would've still been hit with the critical, lost the eye and the holy symbol, so there's no practical difference between Disintegrate and Destruction as the opener.

The way I see it, RC used his domain spell slot which could only be Disintegrate

No, it could also be Dictum (Law Domain). While not as useful as Blasphemy for an evil character, it's still quite cool as it affects all non-lawfuls (i.e. chaotics and neutrals).

Apart from the domain slot, Red's 7th level has Blasphemy, which would've made a much better opener than the Disintegrate.

since he has Destruction and not Death domain.

Yeah, it's funny how the Destruction domain gives you a spell which is much worse at destroying than the spell Destruction of the same level. The only edge Disintegrate has is that it affects objects (and the longer range, perhaps).

He almost always has 1 Disintegrate memorized, but not a Destruction.

I'm not sure what your angle on this is, but

1. He could easily memorise Destructions for his non-domain 7th level slots;

2. Disintegrate is probably better than Dictum (which only affects non-lawfuls, while Team Evil's main enemies ATM are lawful good paladins).

So it makes sense for Red to have Disintegrate memorised. It doesn't make sense to use this spell against a character with high class Fort save and exorbitant Constitution (of which Red should be well aware by now). But, sure, he panicked, I can buy that.

Simanos

2009-05-26, 08:13 AM

Yes, but going by wall of X, every trap in the game, blade barrier, earthquake, Transmute Mud to Rock, and the basic concept of the game that you can't be completely screwed without some sort of opposed roll there should be a save.

Instead of solid ground, imagine the fight is taking place over a bridge 200 feet off the ground. Are you going to tell your players "Oh, the monster casts disintegrate under you, you fall to 20d6 damage, no save?" You might make it harder than those in the middle (+2 for every 5 feet they need to move) but spells that have no opposed roll should be very limited in their ability to affect people. Transmute mud to rock doesn't allow a save is balanced by it reducing movement (not stopping it), not preventing ranged attacks, and doing no damage
Not every trap in the game has a save. It's up to the DM and how the trap is designed. Though most traps without save have onset delay it doesn't have to have it. And Rock to Mud is a bit different to Mud to Rock. As are the other spells. Are you going to tell me there are no spells with no save?

And I already mentioned the bridge situation. Did you read my last post whole? Why do you try to present it like an original idea that I hadn't thought of? Anyway, it's D&D, bad things happen. If someone is stuck in a falling bridge he has to suck it up. You now say +2 DC per 5 feet, but the initial suggestion was DC 15 and when I suggested it should be 20 or higher (if not no save) people tried to argue that it was a simple pit trap.

BTW, Rock to Mud says creatures large enough to walk on the bottom can wade through the area at a speed of 5 feet. so I would have to rule that smaller creatures are stuck in it (unless they can levitate out or be pulled out) even though the description earlier is a bit misleading.

Undead Prince, when I repeat things it's to make note of my agreement on them. Someone did indeed comment on the speed of the ray, look in previous pages (also note that a caster targets after he completes the spellcasting). As you can see I'm aware of the "bridge" scenario. You might want to read the whole post before you begin your omni-slashing. We should also bear in mind that when Disintegrates are being thrown around people tend to have many ways to avoid falling. What if it was a normal trapped 100-foot rope bridge (over a chasm) and the players were to careless (or bad rolls) to see the trap? When they are in the middle one end is cut and they fall, maybe they can grab onto the bridge and climb on the safe side. But what if both sides are cut? I guess they should have checked for traps or use some means to fly or something. There doesn't have to be a saving throw. You can't jump 50 feet (unless one of them can and that's what saves him).
In the end if the enemy gets the same saving throw as for eating the Disintegrate in the face, why would anyone use it in a more creative way?

Finally no more reliable than a Disintegrate does mean that Destruction is as reliable as Disintegrate or less. And I just proved that it is patently more reliable, even if by only a little. Death vs 40d6 and 10d6 vs 5d6 is clear. We don't even know O-Chul had full hitpoints when this started. Why would he?
When I say his domain spell slot which could only be Disintegrate I meant it can't have been Destruction, I was comparing the two. Of course it could have been another domain spell. I didn't phrase that well.

puzpuz

2009-05-26, 09:35 AM

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-26, 10:10 AM

As I said, imagine the fight a week after you say disintegrating the floor doesn't allow for a save. The fight is taking place over a 200 foot bridge. One of your players disintegrates the stone under the Big bad guys feet... now what?

Not every spell allows an opposed save but nearly all requires some sort of opposed roll. The ones that don't allow a save usually require a ranged touch attack or a touch attack. Rock to mud is an exception because the effects it has on the targets is far, far less than most spells of its level. Its the exception, not the rule, and its not the closest approximation. You are effectively creating a wall 10 by 10 around the opponent. From a wall spell, they'd get a save.

Volkov

2009-05-26, 10:31 AM

Call max hit dice gibbering orb. :P

King of Nowhere

2009-05-26, 12:21 PM

As I said, imagine the fight a week after you say disintegrating the floor doesn't allow for a save. The fight is taking place over a 200 foot bridge. One of your players disintegrates the stone under the Big bad guys feet... now what?

The big bad has a way to fly?

But, why not using the spell's dc for the saving throw? I would put the normal dc for the ref save to avoid any effect, and a dc of 15 to grab the edge. Or a dc of (regular dc-5) to grab the edge.

Anyway, if you fight on a rock bridge, and use transmute rock to mud, the bridge would collapse and allow no saving throw. It would also collapse on the enemies when they're fallen to the ground. It would be a great scene...

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-26, 12:52 PM

The big bad has a way to fly?

on someone else's turn? Nope.

Having people get an affect without some sort of opposed roll just seems wrong. Everything in the game, if it were left up to a dms call, would sound over the top and physically impossible. "its a ball of fire! it exploded right next to you.. no save!" Anything thats going to kill you without a roll of some kind is going to make the game not fun, and that violates rule -1, which preceeds even rule 0.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-26, 01:12 PM

The big bad has a way to fly?

But, why not using the spell's dc for the saving throw? I would put the normal dc for the ref save to avoid any effect, and a dc of 15 to grab the edge. Or a dc of (regular dc-5) to grab the edge.

Anyway, if you fight on a rock bridge, and use transmute rock to mud, the bridge would collapse and allow no saving throw. It would also collapse on the enemies when they're fallen to the ground. It would be a great scene...

Transmute Rock to Mud has no save when you sink into its area of effect and it slows you down to a 5 foot move and gives you a -2 penalty to AC and attack. That is when the TRtM's game mechanical effect is comparable to a debuffing/battle field control spell of roughly the same level that also allows no save (like say Solid Fog or Wave of Fatigue), then TRtM's game mechanical has no save.

When you use TRtM to cause of roof collapse then it does 8d6 damage with a Reflex save for half. In other words, when it would cause area damage comparable to another spell of the same level that also allows a Reflex save (like say Cone of Cold), TRtM also allows a Reflex save.

When you use TRtM to create an effect not covered explicitly by the rules, then the DM has to adjudicate. In the case of TRtM, or some other spell, causing, say, a floor to collapse underneath a character, then I (as others have similarly said), that if the collapse was partial, then the characters should get a Reflex save to avoid falling. Because that is similar to what would happen if you used another game effect of the same level to try to instantly win the fight -- for example by opening up a pit trap underneath the character (Reflex save) or using an instakill spell like Hold Monster (Will save).

If the collapse is total or large scale, then the characters should not get a save. So for example, say you use Disintegrate to destroy a 30 foot long beam spanning across a chasm, then I would say anyone on it gets a Reflex save to avoid the fall. How did the characters avoid falling in game? Well that is up to your imagination. Maybe one character jumped clear and another held on to the edge and yet another used a whip to grab on to something on one side. But consider the same beam not spanning a chasm but levitated in the air above open ground near no structure. Now, if Disintegrate was used to destroy the levitated beam, then it makes no sense (in terms of suspension of disbelief) to give a Reflex save to characters to avoid falling. This has nothing to do with the physics of the situation. In fact the less you think of the way the make believe world works physically, the more suspension of disbelief you have. So in the example of the levitated beam, a character falling from it can still avoid damage by the RAW by a casting a "simple magic spell" or performing a "Tumble" check with a high enough DC.

Now, also consider that if a DM is willing to allow PCs to use spells like TRtM or Disintegrate in such a way that NPC's and monsters are insta-killed/trapped/neutralized without a save, then it is also reasonable for the DM to use such tactics against PCs. In general, this is bad for PC's. And in general, players will complain when their PC's are treated to the same tactics.

It is perfectly fine to have a game where PCs can use insta-kill tactics that allow NPCs or monsters no saves and where the PCs are not subject to the same tactics in return...if the players and the DM are having fun. In my experience, I did not find that to be the case. I prefer a game where the same game-mechanics are effectively appled to PCs, NPCs and monsters (with the PCs having the edge in power -- after all they are the heroes). YMMV.