A New Test of Might!

[Ixahinon]

Damn..I'd DM ECL 20 if I wasn't DMing ECL 7-9....

[OMG PONIES]

Is there anyone willing to DM an ECL 15-16? I'd like to try my hand at it...

[Talic]

I'll run a second ECL 15-16 if needed. I have a couple updates to the villain based on practical testing. More or less, something that makes it not quite an Auto-TPK.

Afro, you'll note they were the special attack changes we've been tossing around.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No future players of any level:You changing the swarm mechanics? The auto-make 5+ saves a round deal seems like an abuse of the CR system.

[Keld Denar]

Reply to above:

I wasn't under the impression that you could "stack" swarms? Overlapping swarms are no more swarmy then individual swarms. Maybe a good question to ask in a seperate thread.

[SillyBee]

Afro,

I can DM a low to mid-level game. I'd like to get my feet wet, as it were.

[Eurus]

Hey, would it be possible to trade the Complete Adventurer for the Complete Scoundrel (or a different Complete-for-Complete exchange)? I'm working on another party, and I find myself really wanting access to both Complete Mage and Complete Scoundrel (for different characters)...

[Master_Rahl22]

Ok, I'm ready for the ECL 7-9 challenge if there's a DM available. My party is below.

7-9 DM, Keep Out!

Elorhir McBardington (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131549)
Timothy Von Clericowicz (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131565)
Morekal Olysamet -Dervish (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131541)
Fred de la Wizardamos (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131571)

[afroakuma]

Hey, would it be possible to trade the Complete Adventurer for the Complete Scoundrel (or a different Complete-for-Complete exchange)? I'm working on another party, and I find myself really wanting access to both Complete Mage and Complete Scoundrel (for different characters)...

No. If you really feel you need a particular thing, you can beg me for it via PM.

[Eurus]

No. If you really feel you need a particular thing, you can beg me for it via PM.

Hmm. Well, I definitely want Complete Scoundrel, but I can probably do without Complete Mage if I need to. Shame to lose access to Master Specialist, though; I'm sure I'll need every advantage I can scrounge for the ECL 20 encounter. :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Can someone send Sillybeee the ECL 7-9? I know enough of you have it. Or know where it is.

[Eldariel]

@ People not DMing 15-16: here's my roster so far (posting just to see if anyone notices any mistakes in the stats I haven't caught; note that Rodrig and Eleriel are still somewhat unfinished):
Will Nothere (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128332) - Goblin Rogue
Darr Minsord the Made (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=129149) - Elan Psychic Warrior
Rodrig de lay Fey (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128456) - Human Druid
Eleriel Farjeon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=129148) - Gray Elf Diviner (Wizard)

[Eurus]

Another question (I know it's already been asked, but it's a big thread and I'm having trouble finding it): can the skillmonkey take a PrC from Complete Warrior (War Chanter for the bard)?

[afroakuma]

War Chanter for a bard: yes.

[Ixahinon]

I'm ready to DM the 7-9 Encounter, just need to know how to make maps on forums

[afroakuma]

I just use the Table code, myself. Other DMs have been using images.

[Ixahinon]

Photobucket, MS Excell, and Print Screen works...I suppose

[Master_Rahl22]

So where we gonna do this? I'll be available in about 3 hours if that works for you Ixa.

[Ixahinon]

Yea, I can do it whenever...just need a room. Kind of waiting on Afro's 'Ok....GO!' command

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Since it just came up, and ToB is popular, might I suggest we get a ruling for how future uses of IHS work? There are innumerable possible interpretations, so getting a standard will probably help keep the DM and players on the same page.

[afroakuma]

Since it just came up, and ToB is popular, might I suggest we get a ruling for how future uses of IHS work? There are innumerable possible interpretations, so getting a standard will probably help keep the DM and players on the same page.

As I look it up, what is your own ruling on Iron Heart Surge?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't DM, and the ability is so poorly worded I just ask whichever DM I have to make the ruling before I pull anything out of ToB.

Since you said 'look it up', I'll assume you aren't up on the issue. The ability requires a standard action to use, and allows you to 'end one effect that affects you with a duration'. It's written to allow you to throw off Dominate and similar because you're 'just that awesome'. It actually is useless against dominate, but allows you to end AMFs, Solid Fogs, Black Tentacles, or the Sun(if you consider 4.5 billion years to be a duration and are a Drow). Yeah. It's one of the few ToB things that is actually broken.

Look here (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=407) for an idea of how it usually ends up working in a normal session.

[afroakuma]

Hmm. I do recall the issue, but it's been a while.

My first instinct (and someone please warn me if this would be insufficient or have glaring flaws) is to rule that it terminates any magical or supernatural effect upon you to the extent that it affects you; provided that it allowed a saving throw.

So you can break free of dominate, hold, even web if you like, because you really are that awesome. You can't leap out of the Tarrasque's stomach sideways, because there's only three ways out and two of them really don't involve awesome. The third does, but it's a pointy kind of awesome.

Similarly, you can't Surge off an acid arrow, but you can throw off iron bands of Bilarro.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would say at least drop the save requirement. There are plenty of powerful effects without saves(Enervation comes to mind) that you should be able to ignore. Limiting it to affecting you is a general houserule, but leads to problems where one guy can walk through a Web and the party is left floundering, with no magic to explain it.

I don't know(which is why I don't rule on it personally), but it seems too limited the way you want it. Also, soundstage A is where it came up, IIRC, in case you haven't seen it yet.

[afroakuma]

I would say at least drop the save requirement. There are plenty of powerful effects without saves(Enervation comes to mind) that you should be able to ignore.

Does enervation qualify under the original, per RAI? I had understood it to be limited to effects with a set duration, and as a DM I would certainly not include a negative level under that.


Limiting it to affecting you is a general houserule, but leads to problems where one guy can walk through a Web and the party is left floundering, with no magic to explain it.

It has nothing to do with magic; as per the original, it has to do with being so... determined, I suppose, given the name, that you are able to fight through via sheer willpower and stubbornness what others fall to.


I don't know(which is why I don't rule on it personally), but it seems too limited the way you want it.

The way I posited above was suggested to specifically avoid all the effects you mentioned. Not limiting it to save effects puts all of them back on the table.

Can you suggest any other effects, other than enervation, that do not have a save and that you would want to associate with IHS?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Does enervation qualify under the original, per RAI? I had understood it to be limited to effects with a set duration, and as a DM I would certainly not include a negative level under that.Enervation levels only last 15 hours. It's so they don't give you an actual neg level, since it's so easy to do. A penalty like that seems what this was designed to allow you to throw off. And I think maybe neg levels would qualify anyway under your rules, given that they allow a save, just...later.

I'd say I'd allow you to remove anything from the Condition list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), at least if it was something that allowed you to take actions. As an example, many fear effects have no save, but being Shaken is exactly what this was designed to ignore.

[afroakuma]

Enervation levels only last 15 hours. It's so they don't give you an actual neg level, since it's so easy to do. A penalty like that seems what this was designed to allow you to throw off. And I think maybe neg levels would qualify anyway under your rules, given that they allow a save, just...later.

The rules can be adjusted to specify "an effect that permits a save when originally applied."


I'd say I'd allow you to remove anything from the Condition list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), at least if it was something that allowed you to take actions. As an example, many fear effects have no save, but being Shaken is exactly what this was designed to ignore.

Fear allows a save, so even if shaken via a partial Will save you could dismiss it with IHS. Frightful presence would be exempted as an extraordinary ability under these rules, however, even though it had a save associated.

Ultimately, I'm trying to find a decent generalization, rather than having to present a case-by-case list of exclusions. For instance, grappling, pinned, and prone should not be removable by being really stubborn.

What about those related to spell resistance? Would that work better?

[theterran]

Wow, all this over me using IHS...:smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

Oddly, my impulse is to provide some general guidelines, expected results, and then just adjudicate it as needed from there. I know that sounds odd, given that I probably come off as a letter-of-the-law man, but I'm actually more of an RAI dude.

That's not practical for this series of challenges though.

[afroakuma]

...an ability that even WotC couldn't figure out how to sort.

An ability that everyone knew going in to be consistently questionable. Annnnnnd you just used it for one of its sketchiest applications.

How do you feel about using the above proposal as a generalization and adjudicating inclusions as they arise?

[Doc Roc]

IHS is both that good, and that strange. It's a huge topic of debate over on my home turf at WOTC-CO.

WOTC is famously bad at these things, frankly.

My wording would be:
Any single-sourced effect with a definite and specified duration currently impeding your ability to function that is not from a continuous source such as an AMF or Solid Fog[..] may be made to cease to affect you. This does not terminate the effect in general.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm really not the one to talk to about balance. You could make a new thread about it, have it go on 20 pages, and come up with no results, but I'm definitely not going to be that helpful. I don't do balance.

This ability has RAW that is stupid-broken. Which means you have to guess at the RAI. Then you have to balance it for 5th-20th levels, usable at-will, no magic, but able to cancel magic. And you need to preserve the original intent well enough that no one will complain. The number of opinions of what it should be is equal to X+1, where X is the number of people who have ever seen it used it in a game. It's AMF, but worse, and 8 levels lower, to boot. The +1 is the original writer, who should have his pen broken and be banished from the literate world

[Doc Roc]

:: gentle smile :: but it sits in an important position in the ecology of power for DnD. I do not think it can just be discarded. We have the advantage of being able to use extremely dedicated and precise language, as well as adding single-case errata. What I mean, in other words, is that we can fix problems as they come up.


Design is not a committee process.
Implementation... Though... :)

[afroakuma]

We have the advantage of being able to use extremely dedicated and precise language, as well as adding single-case errata. What I mean, in other words, is that we can fix problems as they come up.

Design is not a committee process.
Implementation... Though... :)

Quite true.

For now, the above implementation will be considered law; individual inclusions should be checked for as needed. This will stand until I see a better recommendation.

[theterran]

Honestly, I had never seen it used to kill an AMF until just recently...and I thought..."Oh, that could be useful!" because I only dabble in ToB...I'm not terribly familiar with it...just enough to be dangerous...it appears...:smallannoyed:

[theterran]

Quite true.

For now, the above implementation will be considered law; individual inclusions should be checked for as needed. This will stand until I see a better recommendation.

So what's the final ruling on IHS?

[afroakuma]

Iron Heart Surge terminates any magical or supernatural effect upon you to the extent that it affects you; provided that it allowed a saving throw at the time it originated upon you.

The above.

And I still haven't read ToB and have never used it. It collects dust around here.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

IHS is both that good, and that strange. It's a huge topic of debate over on my home turf at WOTC-CO.

WOTC is famously bad at these things, frankly.Is there any threads devoted to just debating it? A link to one of those, even if it has concluded, could provide more perspective than we'll see in this one.

Edit@AA: Do so. At the least, you need to understand the mechanics for this test. It's also about the most fun you can have with a meleer that won't get you arrested in Alabama.

[Doc Roc]

Please...
Read ToB.

[afroakuma]

Is there any threads devoted to just debating it? A link to one of those, even if it has concluded, could provide more perspective than we'll see in this one.

Quite concurred.


Edit@AA: Do so. At the least, you need to understand the mechanics for this test.

In the case of stances, strikes et. al that are less ambiguously worded, I can familiarize myself with the appropriate information quickly enough.

When I find myself some time (like after VUACS is finally finished) then maybe I'll settle down and give it a considered run-through.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Quite concurred.



In the case of stances, strikes et. al that are less ambiguously worded, I can familiarize myself with the appropriate information quickly enough.

When I find myself some time (like after VUACS is finally finished) then maybe I'll settle down and give it a considered run-through.IHS is one strike. Read it, read the section on what it takes to initiate a maneuver. Remember, it's availible to one of the 3 classes with an IL for that class of 5 or more. So a single-classed Warblade can get it at 5, any class can get it with 2 feats by 9th level.

[afroakuma]

IHS is one strike. Read it, read the section on what it takes to initiate a maneuver. Remember, it's availible to one of the 3 classes with an IL for that class of 5 or more. So a single-classed Warblade can get it at 5, any class can get it with 2 feats by 9th level.

I have read both. The fact that it's so broadly accessible only reinforces my view that the general ruling should be restrictive with inclusions factored in case-by-case.

Reading it as written, I can understand how to actively DM it, but not how to leave it as a passive rule, because if given to the player to adjudicate it's too ridiculous for words.

[theterran]

I have read both. The fact that it's so broadly accessible only reinforces my view that the general ruling should be restrictive with inclusions factored in case-by-case.

Reading it as written, I can understand how to actively DM it, but not how to leave it as a passive rule, because if given to the player to adjudicate it's too ridiculous for words.

Yeah...the player might try to break an AMF with it :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

I have brutally murdered TheTerran with my zerg rush of glyphseals. He would like a retry minus my landsharky shape.

[sofawall]

Zergling Apocalypse?

Oh man, I am totally homebrewing a zergling now...

[Talic]

Just a reminder: I have crafted a ECL 7-9 villain, that needs test runs before official inclusion.

If anyone wishes to run against it (Or run it against someone), let me know. I'd like to see how it fares against a solid party.

[SillyBee]

I'm reiterating my interest in DM'ing a low to mid-level game. 7-9 would be perfect.

Once there is an available player, I'll be happy to run a game.

[Master_Rahl22]

So, I've seen two people say they will run the 7-9 challenge and I'm ready to play the 7-9 challenge. When can we get started?

[afroakuma]

You were allocated to a soundstage already. Soundstage F, I believe.

[SillyBee]

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113160&page=7) Master_Rahl22

[theterran]

I have brutally murdered TheTerran with my zerg rush of glyphseals. He would like a retry minus my landsharky shape.

I said nothing of the sort, I said I would like a retry w/ you as the DM :P

[afroakuma]

Retrial then. Same soundstage.

[Ixahinon]

I'm ready for you Rahl...just waiting for you to make your post.

[Ixahinon]

I'd imagine by the lack of posts, that this challange is dying down..but figure I'd put this out ther anyway...ECL 7-9 challange is underway with Rahl and I, if you are bothering to update the front page.

[Zid]

I´m sorry if this is a dumb question, but can you use a ToB base class instead of a fighter/barbarian class for one of your PCs?

[Eldariel]

I´m sorry if this is a dumb question, but can you use a ToB base class instead of a fighter/barbarian class for one of your PCs?

ToB is an allowed book, so yes, go ahead.

[TSED]

I'm tempted to ask if I could run as a player for a level 12-13ish area.


I'm pretty sure I'll get slaughtered, but I am curious to see if my knowledge of d20 is halfway as good as I think it is.


EDIT:: On the topic of allowed books, are they ALL allowed, or do we have a specific limit on the number of them? Or does that just apply to the specific-character-in-a-role-creation?

[Keld Denar]

Check the OP, its detailed there...

[Talic]

I'm reiterating my interest in DM'ing a low to mid-level game. 7-9 would be perfect.

Once there is an available player, I'll be happy to run a game.

Which would you prefer running? The standard ECL 7-9? Or the alternate?

[Doc Roc]

I'll be ready to start up the ECL 16 with Terran again come monday night, I think.

[TSED]

Check the OP, its detailed there...

I reread it twice and can't figure out where this nagging question came from, so I figured I'd just ask it.

Trust me, I read it. It didn't state explicitly either way.

[Talic]

Players' Rules
• The party must conform to these specifications:

○○○ One barbarian, fighter, monk, psionic warrior or Complete Warrior base class

○○○ One bard, ranger, rogue or Complete Adventurer base class

○○○ One cleric, druid, paladin or Complete Divine base class

○○○ One psion, sorcerer, wilder, wizard or Complete Arcane base class

(or, to put it more succintly, one beatstick, one skillmonkey, one healbot and one blaster)

• The books allowed are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. The character in each role can use the Complete book from their listing.

• You may select one additional sourcebook from the following list: Complete Champion, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel; or, you may request specific material from another book.

• If one or more of your characters are psionic, you may exchange the Complete book that character would normally be permitted with Complete Psionic. Should you choose to do so, the original book is no longer available and must be used as an extra source if used at all. You must do this for each character who wishes to use Complete Psionic if you do not intend to select it as your extra source.



I've removed non-relevant information from the post.

1:All characters may use: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium.

2:The Beatstick may use Complete Warrior.
The Blaster may use Complete Arcane.
The Skillmonkey may use Complete Adventurer.
The Healbot may use Complete Divine.

3:In addition, you may use 1 additional book, selected from the following: Complete Champion, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel. All characters gain access to that book. If you want something else, ask Afroakuma for it, and items may be approved on a line-item basis.

If you've chosen a psionic class, the role in question can forego the book granted in section 2, and instead take Complete Psionic. This choice only applies to that character. So if you have a Psionic Warrior for your beatstick, a Psion for your blaster, and a Lurk for your skillmonkey, and chose Complete Psionic for the Lurk, the Psion and Psywar would not have it (unless they gave up Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior for them).

[TSED]

So basically to answer my (in hindsight poorly worded) question, "Yes."

[Talic]

So basically to answer my (in hindsight poorly worded) question, "Yes."

Well, I wasn't sure exactly what you were asking, so I placed a detailed description in there.

[TSED]

Amazing what a few words missing can do to semantics. To clarify, what I meant was:

"Are the books in the following list available for unlimited acces? :

Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium."


As you've answered that, thanks.

And I restate: any one up for DMing the level 12-13ish area?

[Talic]

Amazing what a few words missing can do to semantics. To clarify, what I meant was:

"Are the books in the following list available for unlimited acces? :

Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium."


As you've answered that, thanks.

And I restate: any one up for DMing the level 12-13ish area?

I've got the creature in question, but I'm currently running 7-9 and 15-16. I can run it, but if there's another willing, I'd like to keep my DM workload reasonable.

As for "unlimited access"? Not quite, but mostly. Any bannings are the limits. For example, the DMG has Leadership. However, it's banned.

[Doc Roc]

Is ur-priest banned? I was never clear on that.

[TSED]

I've got the creature in question, but I'm currently running 7-9 and 15-16. I can run it, but if there's another willing, I'd like to keep my DM workload reasonable.

As for "unlimited access"? Not quite, but mostly. Any bannings are the limits. For example, the DMG has Leadership. However, it's banned.

I'll take you up on it when your schedule clears. I don't really want to rush into this anyways, as I'm doing more than my usual summer laze (ie: actively working on things!) right now.

IE: 2, 3, 4 weeks time would be lovely.

EDIT:: And yeah, I left out the "specifically banned things" for ease of use. Is there a list of specifically banned things outside of Genesis, Leadership, et al? I didn't see one.

[Talic]

I'll take you up on it when your schedule clears. I don't really want to rush into this anyways, as I'm doing more than my usual summer laze (ie: actively working on things!) right now.

IE: 2, 3, 4 weeks time would be lovely.

EDIT:: And yeah, I left out the "specifically banned things" for ease of use. Is there a list of specifically banned things outside of Genesis, Leadership, et al? I didn't see one.

It'll be less than that, I'm sure. The ECL 15-16 challenge? My opponent can only survive until his spells run out. He's not making enough of an impact to really harm it.

And my ECL 7-9? Well, he's debuffed the heck out of it, but it's still a lethal threat.

[theterran]

Is ur-priest banned? I was never clear on that.

Yes, I would like to know the answer to this. I would also like to know the ruling on Ruby Knight Vindicator and if it's allowed. (I will assume that the class feature that grants extra swift actions only will grant one extra a turn, even though that's most likely the RAI and not the RAW, RKV is ToB pg. 122).

[afroakuma]

RKV was ruled early on to grant only one swift action per turn. Under that errata, it's allowed.

Ur-Priest is not allowed. I'll have to remember to go formally ban that.

[theterran]

Ur-Priest is not allowed. I'll have to remember to go formally ban that.

A shame, but understandable.

[Eurus]

It'll be less than that, I'm sure. The ECL 15-16 challenge? My opponent can only survive until his spells run out. He's not making enough of an impact to really harm it.

Well thanks. :smalltongue: But yeah, I figured as much. I just can't do anything when two out of my three surviving party members are unavoidably locked down like this (and will likely be locked down again a few turns after they come to their senses). I'm willing to formally surrender right now, instead of dragging this on forever when it's not really going anywhere. Lin shall escape with her life yet again! :smallbiggrin:

[Eurus]

Is Miracle banned? I know Wish is, but I don't think Miracle was mentioned. No, I'm not trying to Planar Bind a Balor in two rounds, why do you ask?

[SillyBee]

Which would you prefer running? The standard ECL 7-9? Or the alternate?

Any.

Just interested in running something.

[afroakuma]

Is Miracle banned? I know Wish is, but I don't think Miracle was mentioned. No, I'm not trying to Planar Bind a Balor in two rounds, why do you ask?

I can't think of a magic item that grants miracle; wish isn't banned, items that would provide you with wishes are banned. The same would apply to miracle.

[Eurus]

Ah, okay. I misunderstood the ban on Wish-granting items to be a total ban on Wishing in general. In that case, yay!

[afroakuma]

Ah, okay. I misunderstood the ban on Wish-granting items to be a total ban on Wishing in general. In that case, yay!

Oh, by no means. If that were the case, I wouldn't be able to abuse wish and miracle myself.


:amused:

The words "don't try it" come to mind.

[Eurus]

Oh, by no means. If that were the case, I wouldn't be able to abuse wish and miracle myself.


:amused:

The words "don't try it" come to mind.

Don't try abusing Wish/Miracles? Well, I won't... but then, you may have a somewhat different definition of "abuse" than I. Using Miracle to use spells with long casting times with one standard action seems (relatively) fair to me, since that's one of the only ways that such spells could actually be used in these encounters, what with the rule against bringing already-summoned/called/crafted allies into battle and the inability to retreat and come back later. And since the enemies, of course, have no such restriction, it's really just evening the playing field a bit. :smallwink:

Of course, if you meant "don't try calling up fiends," then I'm afraid you're far too late to change my mind. I've wanted to try a Malconvoker for far too long, and not trying to bend demon lords to my will would feel like such a waste. :smallcool:

[Ixahinon]

Just a reminder: I have crafted a ECL 7-9 villain, that needs test runs before official inclusion.

Am I to understand that your own villians can be used now? Cause that's kinda cool..I'd run my own villian I made for my campian, just to see how it goes..

[afroakuma]

Using Miracle to use spells with long casting times with one standard action seems (relatively) fair to me, since that's one of the only ways that such spells could actually be used in these encounters, what with the rule against bringing already-summoned/called/crafted allies into battle and the inability to retreat and come back later. And since the enemies, of course, have no such restriction, it's really just evening the playing field a bit. :smallwink:

Correction: you're expected to design your party such that they don't need outside help, or if they do it can be supplied via summon monster or the like. The enemies are all solos themselves, so they get help so as not to be teamed up on instantly.

And considering the vast difference between the class of minion generally used in these trials thus far and the kind of creatures you're thinking of packing...

[Eurus]

Correction: you're expected to design your party such that they don't need outside help, or if they do it can be supplied via summon monster or the like. The enemies are all solos themselves, so they get help so as not to be teamed up on instantly.

And considering the vast difference between the class of minion generally used in these trials thus far and the kind of creatures you're thinking of packing...

But what makes Planar Binding considered outside help when Summon Monster isn't? They're both spells in your arsenal, the only real difference is that one is a bit more risky and difficult to pull off but provides (significantly) stronger assistance. You don't even have to offer a reward to whatever you're binding if you make a good enough check, so it's not even a matter of "buying" the help rather than getting it yourself. Summoning is a perfectly good strategy (that, in my opinion, is actually less unbalanced than spamming save-or-dies all day), and Planar Binding/Ally spells are just an extension of that.

And, in my defense, I have no idea what to expect, except that it's presumably quite bad. Both of the encounters I've been in so far pounded my party into the ground, and as I imagine this one to be even worse (relatively speaking) since it's intended to do to level 20 parties what the other encounters do to lower-level ones, I'm attempting to step up my game. To not use every resource at my disposal (especially when half of my PrC focuses on Planar Binding spells already) doesn't make sense. Plus, for all I know my big nasty outsider could get smacked away by one Banishment spell...

[afroakuma]

But what makes Planar Binding considered outside help when Summon Monster isn't? They're both spells in your arsenal, the only real difference is that one is a bit more risky and difficult to pull off but provides (significantly) stronger assistance.

You answered it yourself:


You don't even have to offer a reward to whatever you're binding if you make a good enough check

I know someone will try to bring in what are essentially free allies with power rivaling (or possibly exceeding) that of a PC. And I know that it can be done, via even crude optimization, with a fair degree of consistency.


Summoning is a perfectly good strategy (that, in my opinion, is actually less unbalanced than spamming save-or-dies all day), and Planar Binding/Ally spells are just an extension of that.

Planar Binding/Ally spells, in this limiting environment, would be always too good to pass up because you'd guarantee yourself an extra high-quality party member. If it's that vital as a strategy, and potentially that swingy, then it's barred.


And, in my defense, I have no idea what to expect, except that it's presumably quite bad. Both of the encounters I've been in so far pounded my party into the ground, and as I imagine this one to be even worse (relatively speaking) since it's intended to do to level 20 parties what the other encounters do to lower-level ones, I'm attempting to step up my game.

And I can understand that, but there's a difference between stepping up your game within the rules provided (and may I remind you that Tidesinger was able to do so to such an unreal extent that I had to concede pre-match out of the futility of even making the attempt) and trying to rewrite the rules. The enemies don't use Ur-Priest, Incantatrix, gate, shapechange or wish. And if they have access to planar binding, they similarly do not use it.


To not use every resource at my disposal (especially when half of my PrC focuses on Planar Binding spells already) doesn't make sense.

To have decided to go with a PrC that focuses on a banned tactic also doesn't make sense.

[Eurus]

And I can understand that, but there's a difference between stepping up your game within the rules provided (and may I remind you that Tidesinger was able to do so to such an unreal extent that I had to concede pre-match out of the futility of even making the attempt) and trying to rewrite the rules. The enemies don't use Ur-Priest, Incantatrix, gate, shapechange or wish. And if they have access to planar binding, they similarly do not use it.

Well see, that's the thing. I wasn't trying to rewrite the rules, I was trying to work within them. At the moment, the two rules that you have concerning what I'm trying to do both forbid calling allies before the battle starts. When you say that Action 1 is not allowed in Situation A, it's implied that it is allowed outside of that situation, so when the rules said "no calling any extraplanar allies before battle starts," I assumed that you didn't have a problem with it once the fight started, so I tried to make my summoner able to do that. If that's not the case, and you don't want calling spells used at all, then I'll just change the character to focus more on Summon Monster instead.

[afroakuma]

Well see, that's the thing. I wasn't trying to rewrite the rules, I was trying to work within them. At the moment, the two rules that you have concerning what I'm trying to do both forbid calling allies before the battle starts. When you say that Action 1 is not allowed in Situation A, it's implied that it is allowed outside of that situation, so when the rules said "no calling any extraplanar allies before battle starts," I assumed that you didn't have a problem with it once the fight started, so I tried to make my summoner able to do that.

If you think you'll have the 10 minutes when the battle begins, then you go right ahead. They're not banned during battle because they're impractical.

What I won't stand for is cutting down their casting time. If you want a fast minion that badly, use gate.

[Doc Roc]

Hrum, so is alacritous cogitation disallowed, then?

[afroakuma]

Hrum, so is alacritous cogitation disallowed, then?

The words Hells yes come to mind. When the first search results are "alacritous cogitation cheese" and "alacritous cogitation trickery," life becomes dangerous.

[Eurus]

If you think you'll have the 10 minutes when the battle begins, then you go right ahead. They're not banned during battle because they're impractical.

What I won't stand for is cutting down their casting time. If you want a fast minion that badly, use gate.

Very well, I'll drop those last four levels of Malconvoker and devote myself to Summon Monster instead, then.

EDIT: Huh, I've never actually read the text of Alacritous Cogitation too closely. WotC really needs to get some better proofreaders.

[afroakuma]

Very well, I'll drop those last four levels of Malconvoker and devote myself to Summon Monster instead, then.

Very sorry, but I simply can't have spells that strong being pulled off with such negligible casting times. Especially when the adversaries aren't guaranteed to have any method of dealing with the called creature.

[Eldariel]

Alacritous Cogitation is funny. RAI, it just grants you an "Oh ****!"-button for when you need just that one spell prepared or get TPKd. RAW, someone forgot to add the "Spell's casting time becomes a full-round action unless the spell's own casting time is already as long or longer than that." which suddenly makes it absolutely broken.

Since RKV got "rationality rule", you could just allow Alacritous Cogitation with that modification. The other uses of the feat outside just casting the spell are fairly minor.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I'll DM again, if I am needed.

[Eurus]

Very sorry, but I simply can't have spells that strong being pulled off with such negligible casting times. Especially when the adversaries aren't guaranteed to have any method of dealing with the called creature.

Fair enough. There's more than one way to skin a campaign-ending opponent. :smallamused:

[afroakuma]

Since RKV got "rationality rule", you could just allow Alacritous Cogitation with that modification. The other uses of the feat outside just casting the spell are fairly minor.

Does anyone want Alacritous Cogitation with that modification? :smalltongue:

If so, then go ahead.


Fair enough. There's more than one way to skin a campaign-ending opponent. :smallamused:

...provided said opponent has skin, and is not incorporeal, or a skeletal undead, or a fire elemental, or a skinless blibbering madthing.

(I was gonna say earth elemental, but then I rememebered that there isa way to skin those.)

[Eurus]

...provided said opponent has skin, and is not incorporeal, or a skeletal undead, or a fire elemental, or a skinless blibbering madthing.

(I was gonna say earth elemental, but then I rememebered that there isa way to skin those.)

Don't be silly, you just need to try harder. If you're determined, you can darn well polymorph that skeleton, elemental, or eldritch abomination into something that does have skin! (Incorporeal creatures are even easier; what do you think Ghost Trap is for?) :smallbiggrin:

[Ixahinon]

I took in a few 'Call Marut' spells with the intent of walling myself in and spending 10 minutes to cast it on both casters, getting two Maruts...but then I found out that my ECL20 Scenerio had a time limit on it ; ;.

[afroakuma]

Oh, don't play with Inevitables. Inevitably, I'll truck out the more dangerous ones. Satuts. Galadiuts.

[Doc Roc]

Alacritous Cogitation is still very very good. I'd rather use Uncanny Foresight, but that's out of reach. :)

[Ixahinon]

I'm torn on the summoning thing too. Figure a Master of Shrouds, True Necormancer, or just a pimped out undead summoner with the right spells would be fun.

[Doc Roc]

True Necromancer is a terrible class.
There've been long discussions about how bad it is, in gentle and careful terms on the other CO boards.

[Ixahinon]

Yea, I wouldn't take it just cause of the massive amount of levels in it, leaves little room for little else...but I love undead...I'd play it.

Anyway...I wouldn't mind signing up for an ECL 14 run, if there are still DMs for it...

[Doc Roc]

You... :: head in hands :: you are never ever gonna listen to me, are you? Not really.

Dread necro + MoS 3 is about a million times better.

[Talic]

Well thanks. :smalltongue: But yeah, I figured as much. I just can't do anything when two out of my three surviving party members are unavoidably locked down like this (and will likely be locked down again a few turns after they come to their senses). I'm willing to formally surrender right now, instead of dragging this on forever when it's not really going anywhere. Lin shall escape with her life yet again! :smallbiggrin:

If it makes you feel any better, the beastie could have had all three of your characters locked down.

The stats for that thing are a hoss, though. It's crazy how sturdy that thing is.

In any case, that does free me up to run another round.

[Talic]

Am I to understand that your own villians can be used now? Cause that's kinda cool..I'd run my own villian I made for my campian, just to see how it goes..

After DMing a couple, I made one, submitted it to afro, and got it put on the page. I believe someone else made a gauntlet that was absurdly unbalanced, so such matches are hit or miss. Mine? I tried to make balanced to the CR it was assigned, and place the party 3-4 levels below that (to represent villainy, and BBEG nature, as Afro did).

[Ixahinon]

oh no...Dread Necromancer is better, that's a given, I'm not even gonna attempt to dispute it otherwise...but I'd still play a True Necromancer, because it's there. Like...in a campaign with friends, whre Libris Mortis was allowed, but that's about it in terms of undead goodies.

Probably would never do it on a forum game, or if you had a chance of seeing it...simply because I don't want to get laughed at for not ubermaximizaplendiforizing my characters to the ultimamaxuber limit

I want to play a Diciple of Mephistopoles, too...but that's BoVD...and I can't ask for two source books, now can I? *waits for the swarm of links, examples, and theories provided by Tides on how badly Diciple of Mephistopoles sucks*

[Doc Roc]

........
Not the nicest way I've been talked about recently.

Talic, if I have a standard level 20 character, may I use it as a villain or an encounter within a run?

[Eurus]

If it makes you feel any better, the beastie could have had all three of your characters locked down.

The stats for that thing are a hoss, though. It's crazy how sturdy that thing is.

In any case, that does free me up to run another round.

Heh. Yeah, I really was at a loss for what to do about that. I mean... that's not the sort of thing you expect to have to deal with, y'know? :smallsigh:

[Talic]

Heh. Yeah, I really was at a loss for what to do about that. I mean... that's not the sort of thing you expect to have to deal with, y'know? :smallsigh:

No, it's not. Hence why I suggested a few tweaks to it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

oh no...Dread Necromancer is better, that's a given, I'm not even gonna attempt to dispute it otherwise...but I'd still play a True Necromancer, because it's there. Like...in a campaign with friends, whre Libris Mortis was allowed, but that's about it in terms of undead goodies.

Probably would never do it on a forum game, or if you had a chance of seeing it...simply because I don't want to get laughed at for not ubermaximizaplendiforizing my characters to the ultimamaxuber limitIt's not that you aren't playing Pun-Pun, it's that Mystic Theurge is better. Mystic Theurge should never be better. It loses even more casting than MT, Turn Undead is penalized too severely to keep up even with the +'s, and the requirements hurt. Dread Necro gets everything it does, but better, as does just playing a Cleric. We don't want you to be CoDzilla, just better than a core-only Fighter.

[Doc Roc]

Thank you. Thank you so much. It's nice to know that someone groks my viewpoint sometimes.

MT is good in a few limited cases, mostly involving Ur Priest. But generally, even as contorted as Lyrist builds end up, I'd rather do a Foccy build. You'd have to pay me to use true necromancer. Strictly better options exist, with more interesting gameplay mechanics behind them.

[afroakuma]

You know, you folks should start pairing up for the encounters you want to run.

[Doc Roc]

I've got Terran as my player for ECL 16. Could you reset the stage for me, AA?

I can run either the existing ECL 20 encounter or a variant of the ECL 16 encounter.

[afroakuma]

All done. Back to your old stomping ground, Soundstage A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6303076#post6303076).

[Doc Roc]

Hook is up. I'm allowing a single use of Contact Other Plane again, as I have changed the hook, the dungeon, and the reliability of the primary source.

[Ixahinon]

I want an ECL 14 DM...with Libris Mortis as my extra sourse again...

[Doc Roc]

I mean, I can do this, if you like, AA. But I think Ixa will not want me as a GM.

[afroakuma]

I'll leave it to him to decide.

[Ixahinon]

Sure, you can have your fun and humiliate me. The party I am building now is just for fun, really. Always wanted to see how the party type I am building would work.

So you putting together an impossible secenario and beating me...or Joe-Schmo that just started playing D&D yesterday can build a sceneario and beat me...don't matter now.

Only reason why I didn't want you to DM the ECL20, is cause I actually tried on that one...and would have cried if some guy that seeks out ways to break things killed me in one round via Contigencied Wish that wishes for three Djinns that offers three more wishes each, that in turn wish for CR 10 devils to kill me in one round...

..or whatever it is you do that makes you good at what you do.

I'm not done with my party of four yet, anyway..so you got time. Just started, actually. Had to get CPR certified, and just got back ; ;

[Eldariel]

I should be able to finish the rest of my party today. After that we can finally get that show on the road too. I've even had some time to design tactics and strategies for the party to employ!

[Doc Roc]

I'm not done with my party of four yet, anyway..so you got time. Just started, actually. Had to get CPR certified, and just got back ; ;

CPR cert is basically one of the things I really do not enjoy. I'm always worried I'm just gonna shatter their ribcage. :|
I think I'll skip, actually. I have no desire to "humiliate you."

[SillyBee]

You know, you folks should start pairing up for the encounters you want to run.

Afro, can you get me a copy of the available DM materials? The low to mid-range ones, at least.

That way I can offer to DM people...

[Ixahinon]

I don't have Unearthed Arcana...but people keep saying that Traits/Flaws are rather helpful for things like this...do I like...get to pick a feat as a trait? Then take a penalty as a flaw? Can someone direct me to somewhere online that explains this?

It sounds like just a '+1 bonus to something while a -1 bonus to something else' if that's the case...eh

[Doc Roc]

The OGL (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Variant_Rules) is so awesome.

[Ixahinon]

....yup. Silly

[Zid]

CPR cert is basically one of the things I really do not enjoy. I'm always worried I'm just gonna shatter their ribcage. :|

Take it from a pro- if you are not breaking a few ribs, you are not doing it right. Besides, broken ribs heal, unlike brain oxygen deprivation and broken ego´s.

So much concern for peoples ribs, so little concern for their painstakingly built PCs. I understand you crush those with impudence? :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

So much concern for peoples ribs, so little concern for their painstakingly built PCs. I understand you crush those with impudence? :smallwink:

I lie below, you float above
In the pretty white ships that I've been dreaming of
And I'd like to swim beside you
Getting dizzy in your wake
Getting close enough to touch you
Getting brave enough to take you into my arms
And bring you down to be with me

But I can't do that thing anymore
I can't be the thing I was before
Maybe I am better off alone
Because I crush everything
And I crush everything
And I crush everything
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0CmrwYj_g)

[Eurus]

I'm not sure when I'll be done with my ECL 20 party, but it should be fairly soon. I'm good with whoever's willing to DM.

[Doc Roc]

Om Nom Nom?

[Eurus]

Bring it on. :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

In the future, players and DMs who are ready are gonna PM me and I'm gonna add them to the first post.

And by future, I mean the rapidly approaching next incarnation of this thread.

[Doc Roc]

If you'll set the stage and hand me the most current rendition of the villain, I can handle Eurus. Is the gear finished properly yet or should I work on it some and wait until say.... friday night?

[Eurus]

Hmm... My divine caster was going to be a Favored Soul with a dip in Sacred Exorcist for turn undead, but now I'm wondering if Cleric might be better to benefit from Incense of Meditation. I didn't realize that it only worked for prepared casters. It'll be a pain to redo her spells, though. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Was that addressed at me or AA? I'm going to need another day or so to finish my party.

[Doc Roc]

EDIT: Was that addressed at me or AA?

Yes, it was.

[Ixahinon]

Eh...I made a straight cleric (Githzeri) and he could turn up to 26HD of undead on a roll of 6 or higher...and afffect a max of 34HD undead if he rolled snakes eyes on d6's. No need to go out of your way to get it.

I want to meet the undead that resist that...save for Atropus...we all know Atropus don't count.

EDIT: Ok..maybe a lot of things...Dracolich maybe...custom made Epic Undead...but you get the point.

[afroakuma]

If you'll set the stage and hand me the most current rendition of the villain, I can handle Eurus. Is the gear finished properly yet or should I work on it some and wait until say.... friday night?

Epic Soundstage Z, as before. And no, I've largely left it alone, if you'd like to go over it?

[Ixahinon]

Are you gonna post a link to the new thread here? So we don't have to fish for it/because we are too lazy to fish for it?

[Doc Roc]

I'd like that too. I'd like to go over it, and I'll make my working changes to gear. I'll be up and ready by friday.

[afroakuma]

Are you gonna post a link to the new thread here? So we don't have to fish for it/because we are too lazy to fish for it?

When it gets there, yeah. Should be about 100 or so posts.

[Ixahinon]

ECL 20 Stuff that Players shouldn't see..

don't know if you looked at the last few posts in there or not between Keld and I, and I don't know if it will even matter much, but everything was kind of laid out in there, after we had to quit due to too much complications.

Just thought I would warn you just in case it does give something away.

[Eurus]

Eh...I made a straight cleric (Githzeri) and he could turn up to 26HD of undead on a roll of 6 or higher...and afffect a max of 34HD undead if he rolled snakes eyes on d6's. No need to go out of your way to get it.

I want to meet the undead that resist that...save for Atropus...we all know Atropus don't count.

EDIT: Ok..maybe a lot of things...Dracolich maybe...custom made Epic Undead...but you get the point.

It's for Divine Metamagic (Rapid and Twin Spell), of course. And Domain Spontaneity (with a 1-level dip in Contemplative for the Trickery domain; Time Stop + Summon Monster = Good). Because really, who actually uses turn attempts for turning undead? :smallwink: One of the advantages of Favored Soul over Cleric is that FS is charisma-based, so you end up with more turn attempts.

[Doc Roc]

Depends on if you'll let me take Nomad Shaman.... turning ANYTHING that's incorporeal is hilarious because half the time that includes wizards.

[Ixahinon]

I made it that high with the express intent to turn undead, and turn lots of HD of undead. Of course, I took Divine Feats too..since I had like...24 turns a day...but When you can use Greater Turn to anniliate 3 Dread Wraith just for looking at you? (And that is on a bad roll of 2d6)

Yea...I like Turn Undead.

[afroakuma]

I made it that high with the express intent to turn undead, and turn lots of HD of undead. Of course, I took Divine Feats too..since I had like...24 turns a day...but When you can use Greater Turn to anniliate 3 Dread Wraith just for looking at you? (And that is on a bad roll of 2d6)

Yea...I like Turn Undead.

I like Turn Living. :smallamused:

I like Rebuke Living. :smallamused:

[Eurus]

Heh, fair enough. It can be useful, to be sure. The problem is that a lot of good prestige classes don't advance it, making actually trying to turn undead nearly useless if you take any of them. Plus divine feats have the advantage of being effective no matter what you're fighting.

EDIT: *Shakes fist at AA* Yeah, I figured that out a while ago. :smallamused:

[Ixahinon]

I'd like those too..if the existed...especially for the party I am making now. If it does exist...show me, please.

rebuke undead is just as awesome, when you are going the other way.

And yea...I do love my Divine Feats...so many of them are rather useful. Divine Metamagic is pretty wicked... Plus..just for splashing cleric, you can make a high charisma (Or paladin) pretty neat too...with some of the Divine Feats that do damage (To Evil Creatures, or whatever) or just a battle cleric.

Yay for divine feats.

[Eurus]

I like Rebuke better than Turn, really. Turning just gets rid of 'em, Rebuking can actually give you some minions.

[afroakuma]

I'd like those too..if the existed...especially for the party I am making now. If it does exist...show me, please.

Oh, I'll show you, alright. :sabine:

Fun fact: did you know the living don't get saves to resist turn/destroy either?

[Ixahinon]

Neither do Undead, if we are still speaking of the game..and not some joke that went over my head.

They can get items to increase turn resistance...but once it happens..it happens.

[afroakuma]

Neither do Undead, if we are still speaking of the game..and not some joke that went over my head.

They can get items to increase turn resistance...but once it happens..it happens.

I said either. See above.

The joke is,

one or more of the villains can do it. There is no defense for you. If you don't have enough HD to resist it, you die, no save.

[Eurus]

And even if you have enough hit dice to avoid destruction, you may (read: probably will) still be turned. Not fun.

[Ixahinon]

Like Power Words, I suppose. I have an idea of who you are talking about...which is kind of harsh. Enervate...Turn Living or whatever...should give people in those scenarios a item or spell or something to find to increase change of not being blown up/turned. cause it sucks...and not a damn thing you can do about it once you are Enervated enough.

Speaking of power! My party for the ECL 15:


Nalenreel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130955)
En'Tha'Kash (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130874)
Ixahinon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130873)
Xy'zxy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130963)

Yea...so many things to take down this party fast...but still it's cool. En'Tha'Kash has DC: 32 against his Paralyzing touch, DC: 28 against Stench ,and DC: 23 against Ghoul Fever...has to accound for something.

Hell, Nalenreel has DC: 30 against Enervating Touch...scary.

Technically, Ixahinon get's an undead cohort as a class ability but I don't know if Afro allows that or not..since it acts as Leadership...which is banned. Otherwise..I'd have a 13th level undead cohort with me, too.

[afroakuma]

Like Power Words, I suppose. I have an idea of who you are talking about...which is kind of harsh. Enervate...Turn Living or whatever...should give people in those scenarios a item or spell or something to find to increase change of not being blown up/turned. cause it sucks...and not a damn thing you can do about it once you are Enervated enough.

...says the guy who schemes to one-shot any undead adversary with hyped-up turning.

The warning was made clear over the course of the thread, and will be stamped on the forehead of its reincarnation: all the jerk moves players love, these villains pull routinely. Things you don't expect to see turned on you. In more than one instance, the player's own metagame thinking ended up burning them.

The only saving grace is that DMs are lenient with players who are playing fair. :smallamused:

[afroakuma]

Ixahinon

Technically, Ixahinon get's an undead cohort as a class ability but I don't know if Afro allows that or not..since it acts as Leadership...which is banned. Otherwise..I'd have a 13th level undead cohort with me, too.


Just another reason for me to be leery of Libris Mortis, isn't it? Crossing the streams, as always, results in a dangerous effect despite my best intentions.

In this case, the rules have a clear precedent. You do get the cohort, but it falls under my approval as High Arbiter and DM.

[Ixahinon]

I didn't metagame in the least...I guessed correctly, and planned accordingly. It has always been my thoughts that end game content is always something as cliche as a lich, dragon, demilich, dracolich, or humanoid villian (Soth, etc)

Just so happens I was right....You know you'd be laughing your ass off if I went through all that based on a guess...and I was 100% wrong, and I would be the one pissed.

In fact..I thought I was wrong..when I finally got to that elven lady, and no one bothered telling me it was an Illusion...Figured it was over then..cause half of my preperations were based on one thing.

As far as 'jerk moves.' How is Turning Undead even remotely a 'jerk move?' It's core...it's a common ability. I mean...Picking 8 differant PrC's and pulling out loopholes and other bizarre combinations that allow you to summon something that takes 10 minutes in just 1 minute, or less...that's a jerk move.

Even better. I will concede that one of my tactics was a jerk move. That was using Greater Divine Surge with my 24 Con Crusades to unload 20 points of Con, while using Sacred Vengeance, and wielding his +3 Holy Surge of Undead Bane at the same time...to get a +60ish to hit, and 9d6 + 46d8 points of damage in one hit.

Then since my cleric was right after him...cast heal to get rid off all that con damage...

But hell..I didn't even get to do it...

PS: Yes...I am assuming this is directed at me...because I feel it is.

[Eurus]

As far as 'jerk moves.' How is Turning Undead even remotely a 'jerk move?' It's core...it's a common ability. I mean...Picking 8 differant PrC's and pulling out loopholes and other bizarre combinations that allow you to summon something that takes 10 minutes in just 1 minute, or less...that's a jerk move.

Should I be taking offense to that? :smalltongue: The "two turn Planar Binding" trick wasn't even that complicated, it was really just the power of the Miracle spell. Which is also core. (Yes, it was a rather "cheap" tactic, but it was a pretty simple one)

[Ixahinon]

No Eurus...you shouldn't. I didn't even know you did that, really...remember some talk in this forum about it..but not the specifics in the soundstage. I'm talking about the Super Potent Cheese..the type where you sit down for a half an hour and figure out how to break the game...

not the type where you look at some well known feats, spells and such and go 'Oh look...I can do this...'

[afroakuma]

I didn't metagame in the least...I guessed correctly, and planned accordingly.

Wasn't referring to you.


It has always been my thoughts that end game content is always something as cliche as a lich, dragon, demilich, dracolich, or humanoid villian (Soth, etc)

Death Star? I have one... we're just not using it.


Just so happens I was right....You know you'd be laughing your ass off if I went through all that based on a guess...and I was 100% wrong, and I would be the one pissed.

I would have stopped you had I known you to be focusing entirely on the wrong thing. I also knew the encounter was staffed with Dread Wraiths, so I let you proceed. The trial is no good to me if you're set up in such a way that one team waltzes over the other.


As far as 'jerk moves.' How is Turning Undead even remotely a 'jerk move?'

Ask an undead.

It's certainly a jerk move when I do it to you. (You meaning a player, not you specifically.) It's a jerk move because the mechanic behind it offers no prevention and no save, and really only token protection. Imagine you were playing a party of undead and I sent a cleric of Pelor at you. Turning would be a jerk move.

[Ixahinon]

Ask an undead.

It's certainly a jerk move when I do it to you. (You meaning a player, not you specifically.) It's a jerk move because the mechanic behind it offers no prevention and no save, and really only token protection. Imagine you were playing a party of undead and I sent a cleric of Pelor at you. Turning would be a jerk move.

No. That's the differance though. 90% of the game does not involve undead characters. In fact, I'm probably the only doushe bag out there that actually enjoys playing undead characters. A lot of people (Such as Tides) will tell you that it is completely not worth it...as you Only gain 4d12hp at 8th level 48 hit points at level 8. A 8th level Fighter with 10 con has more hit points. The Undead Immunities does not, in any way, shape, or form makes up for the 'BOOM! YOU'RE DEAD!' aspect Undead get when they hit 0...not -10...0.

Undead Turning, in 90% of games out there, only ruin DMs plans for world domination. It does not ruin player experience. (Unless you are the doushe bag that enjoys playing undead)

Also, Protection against turning is not token, unless you want it to be. +5 Cloak of Turning Resistance on a 20HD Ghoul with +2 Natural Turning Resistance, the Feat Improved Turning Resistance, and standing next to a cleric that has Necropotent Presance (+4 Turning Resistance) suddenly makes that Ghoul a 35HD creature when it comes to turning.

Even a cleric like mine...specifically designed to blow up undead...can't touch him. That ghoul would look at my cleric...and laugh.

...I love undead.

PS: If I ever find a campaign where I can play as one of my many pre-created undead creatures...I would gladly accept and fully welcome turning attempts. I would make sure I have the best CoA for running away, hope my party is evil enough to like having me around, and go with it.

If I was blown up...well poo...it happens. New character...probably undead again, cause it's allowed in the campaign...and


...I love undead.


I also knew the encounter was staffed with Dread Wraiths

That I totally walked all over. One came out, and was blown a part. I would have blown up three in that round if I would have typed my readied action more specifically.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

...I love undead.Lichloved?

Also, they are a fun type. So many roleplay possibilities.

[Ixahinon]

Lichloved?

Also, they are a fun type. So many roleplay possibilities.

I don't go that far..but that is a fragging FUNNY feat....screw undead and get +1 circumstance bonus on saving throw against mind-affecting spells, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning and disease! OMG YAY!!!

[afroakuma]

No. That's the differance though. 90% of the game does not involve undead characters.

I'm well aware. However, as the DM, my team probably does.


Undead Turning, in 90% of games out there, only ruin DMs plans for world domination. It does not ruin player experience. (Unless you are the doushe bag that enjoys playing undead)

I know that. Again, that's my point. I could have called this contest "DM's Revenge" with all the DM-hating stuff I'm turning back against players. :smallwink:

More to the point, though, it ruins these excellent thematic creatures because you can remove or neuter even the best of them without worry of even token resistance.


Also, Protection against turning is not token, unless you want it to be.

Oh? Let's observe:


+5 Cloak of Turning Resistance on a 20HD Ghoul with +2 Natural Turning Resistance, the Feat Improved Turning Resistance, and standing next to a cleric that has Necropotent Presance (+4 Turning Resistance) suddenly makes that Ghoul a 35HD creature when it comes to turning.

So, expensive magical item in an important body slot, undead creature with natural resistance to the effect, burning a feat slot and being a satellite to a character with a comparatively rare ability. All to defend against one effect.

In reality, you're normally going to have one, maybe two of those things. So that's a 29 HD creature.

Sure, you can build for stacks of turn resistance, but normally it's not gonna be there.

[Ixahinon]

So, expensive magical item in an important body slot, undead creature with natural resistance to the effect, burning a feat slot and being a satellite to a character with a comparatively rare ability. All to defend against one effect.

In reality, you're normally going to have one, maybe two of those things. So that's a 29 HD creature.

Sure, you can build for stacks of turn resistance, but normally it's not gonna be there.

In a normal game? Possibly. But you are giving us 760,000 gold to work with at an ECL 20. Burning one feat (Or two..since you can take Necropotent on anyone), and buying one item that is only a meager 11,000gps.

If that ghoul was a fighter...two feats is pidley for assurance to not instantly die. Hell..even with the standard 7, I'd find spots for two if it meant I don't get a 'YOU DIE' situation on me. Ghouls and Wights get two bonus feats, so that's 9...hell...there are your reserve spots for those two feats.

If undead don't want to be turned...they won't.

If Humans don't want to be turned in your game...to fragging bad. Now...if there were Cloaks of Turn Resistance, Natural Turning Resistance, and Turning Resistance Feats on the living...have at it. Or if Good Clerics could 'bolster' their courage or something...Turn Living away...least the playing field is is a bit less slanted....the PCs would have to somehow be aware of the shock that is about to hit them...thus giving them time to prepare for it...which is still in your advantage...but at least we had the option of prepping for it.

Point is: Turn Living was not a design meant to be encountered...if it was, you'd be damn sure the living would have a countermeasure for it.

EDIT: But you could have a cleric follow you around, and Bolster you for more resistance, if you wanted...but yea..the satiliate thing is probably not a good idea..unless the game you are playing allows Cohorts.

[Eurus]

As a ghoul, I'd be more worried about one or two good Disintegrates, and probably wearing a Cloak of Resistance...

[Ixahinon]

As a ghoul, I'd be more worried about one or two good Disintegrates, and probably wearing a Cloak of Resistance...

That's cause you are crazy....I'd be wearing a Ring of Resistance, and a Cloak of Turn Resistance. Or a Ring of Turn Resistance, and a Cloak of Resistance.

Or...I would use the hide skills of a ghoul to just not have that disintigrate tap you in your decayed ass.

EDIT: and really...Disintegrate is the last arcane spell I would be worried about, as an undead.

[Eldariel]

EDIT: and really...Disintegrate is the last arcane spell I would be worried about, as an undead.

It should be amongst the first spells you're worried of, because your Fort-save will suck (no Con, poor Fort progression - it's gonna be horrible), and you have immunity to Fort-save spells that do not affect objects. Guess what? Disintegrate affects objects.

[Eurus]

Well, there's also Command/Control undead. But Disintegrate is still rather nasty with no Con score.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's cause you are crazy....I'd be wearing a Ring of Resistance, and a Cloak of Turn Resistance. Or a Ring of Turn Resistance, and a Cloak of Resistance.

Or...I would use the hide skills of a ghoul to just not have that disintigrate tap you in your decayed ass.

EDIT: and really...Disintegrate is the last arcane spell I would be worried about, as an undead.Poor Fort progression and no Con bonus. If a Fort spell gets through your laundry list of immunities(which Disintigrate does), you fear it. Especially one that has a 50/50 chance of one-shotting you if cast by someone who has CL=your HD.

[Ixahinon]

Yea...I suppose. At 11th level you are looking at +4 base..that's if you go fighter. But there is a Feat that gives you +4 bonus to Fortitude if you are undead, if you were really scared of getting disintigrated, I think that counts towards everything..could be wrong.

But yea...Disintegrate is a threat...but I would be worried about all the rest that affect undead specifically..or worse...force you to attack allies, though your will is pretty good.

Disintegrate with Energize Spell (50% more damage to undead) would be overkill.

But hey...I already know playing as an undead creature has way more cons than pros.

EDIT: Besides, anything that does a crap ton of hp in a hit is a threat. I mean..at 11th level, totally maxed HD rolls...78hp as a fighter.

[Eurus]

Oh, I don't know about more cons than pros. Immunity to anything mind-affecting (normally the equivalent of an 8th-level buff) and most things that require fort saves is pretty darn good. It does present some challenges, though, as mentioned.

[Eldariel]

Disintegrate's biggest thing is that it's a save-or-die vs. you, and vs. a bad save. Most of the others don't kill you outright. Disintegrate does such ridiculous amounts of damage that it usually does. And the save is rather high; it's base 16 + casting stat + any spell focuses. On 11, casting stat is at minimum 19 (15 start from Elite Array, no racial plusses, two level ups, +2 item) and could be as high as 26 (18 start from point buy/roll, +2 racial, +2 level ups, +4 item); 30 is really the absolute maximum, but you gotta bend over backwards to get that (+6 item, old age to the last one) so I'd say you're looking at a DC of 20-28 (30 base + 2 spell focus), probably 22-25 (for those who took Spell Focus: Transmutation towards Archmage).

Your HP is gonna be 1d12 for each level, for an average of 77 on level 11 (assuming max on level 1). Level 11 Disintegrate does 22d6, or an average of 77 damage. If there's a CL boost (such as the Ioun Stone, Magic Tattoo or such), it's 24d6 adding up to 84. Either is enough to dust you, mind. In Neverwinter Nights II, I've been dusting some CR 8-above-my-party-level Vampire Ancient Monks with Empowered Disintegrates no problem. Easily my favourite Undead Killer ever (although it does require Touch and go through SR).


It definitely has more Pros than Cons, but you gotta be prepared to cover your Cons.

[Doc Roc]

Be aware that twinpowered disintegrates are not impossible or even very difficult to pull off.

[Ixahinon]

Keep in mind that undead gain a HD every other level. So at 8th level you are looking at 4d12hp. 11th level 7d12.

[Talic]

Keep in mind that undead gain a HD every other level. So at 8th level you are looking at 4d12hp. 11th level 7d12.

No they don't. When advancing by class levels, all classes/races/what have you gain a HD every level.

Undead just have no Con modifier. It's a crippling weakness, and a hard one to cover. No matter how you build it, an undead is not going to be able to take a hit. This means, in high-powered areas, you need:
A great set of saves
A Great AC/Touch AC
Good SR
Magic Avoidance methods

to even have a chance. Otherwise? They get dusted really quick.

Incidentally, what source are you getting your "HD every other level" from?

[Eurus]

A rules question: do effects that grant additional attacks stack? Obviously a Speed weapon doesn't stack with Haste, but does it stack with Flurry of Blows? What about Slashing Flurry? What about stacking Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Strikes (the Exotic Weapon Master ability)? What about both of those, plus Whirling Frenzy, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Raging Mongoose? Most of these abilities don't say anything about not stacking with other extra attack abilities, so does that mean they do stack?

[afroakuma]

What did I say about cheese?

[Adumbration]

What did I say about cheese?

That you like low-fat Edam?

[Eurus]

What did I say about cheese?

Oh, you are no fun at all. :smalltongue: It was a legitimate question, really... And besides, I'm going against Tidesinger, of all people. You saw what he did to TheTerran! :smalleek: (A fate which, admittedly, would not have been averted by any amount of combat prowess, but possibly could have been by a bit more paranoia...)

But if you insist, I'll content myself with no stacking of extra attacks at all. It's not a vital part of my combat strategy anyway.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A rules question: do effects that grant additional attacks stack? Obviously a Speed weapon doesn't stack with Haste, but does it stack with Flurry of Blows? What about Slashing Flurry? What about stacking Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Strikes (the Exotic Weapon Master ability)? What about both of those, plus Whirling Frenzy, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Raging Mongoose? Most of these abilities don't say anything about not stacking with other extra attack abilities, so does that mean they do stack?Yep, extra attacks stack unless they state otherwise(which is generally only the Haste and Haste-like effects).

And AA, it's not cheesy IMHO. Many of those effects have a cost associated with them, either -2 AB, feat and class level requirements, or similar. And each one you take is a comparitively smaller boost to overall damage. Unless he's building to the nat-20 TO someone(Keld?) posted a couple months ago, don't worry about it.

[Eurus]

Yep, extra attacks stack unless they state otherwise(which is generally only the Haste and Haste-like effects).

And AA, it's not cheesy IMHO. Many of those effects have a cost associated with them, either -2 AB, feat and class level requirements, or similar. And each one you take is a comparitively smaller boost to overall damage. Unless he's building to the nat-20 TO someone(Keld?) posted a couple months ago, don't worry about it.

Seeing as I've never heard of this "nat-20 TO," no, I'm not trying to build one. A War Chanter (for Inspire Recklessness) may be involved, however. But like I said, I don't really need the extra attacks. They're nice, but I don't need 'em.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Seeing as I've never heard of this "nat-20 TO," no, I'm not trying to build one. A War Chanter (for Inspire Recklessness) may be involved, however. But like I said, I don't really need the extra attacks. They're nice, but I don't need 'em.The thread was discussing taking every feat, class ability, and odd weapon that was supposedly balanced by an attack penalty. At once. Power Attack, Stone Power, Improved Combat Expertise, Exotic Gold Heavy weapons, and any number of other things. After all, once you need a nat-20 to hit, further attack penalties are just a free bonus.

[Adumbration]

The thread was discussing taking every feat, class ability, and odd weapon that was supposedly balanced by an attack penalty. At once. Power Attack, Stone Power, Improved Combat Expertise, Exotic Gold Heavy weapons, and any number of other things. After all, once you need a nat-20 to hit, further attack penalties are just a free bonus.

Was the base creature an Insectile Thri-Kreen with Girallon's arms? (Of course, since those are claw attacks, you use Fuse Arms to get rid of them for boni.)

[afroakuma]

And AA, it's not cheesy IMHO.

I didn't say it was, only that he's walking near the line. I saw a horrifically abusive attack-multiplying build last time, one that basically rendered the trials moot, so I just want to be sure we're all on the same page regarding what's going on.

[Eurus]

The thread was discussing taking every feat, class ability, and odd weapon that was supposedly balanced by an attack penalty. At once. Power Attack, Stone Power, Improved Combat Expertise, Exotic Gold Heavy weapons, and any number of other things. After all, once you need a nat-20 to hit, further attack penalties are just a free bonus.

Ah, interesting. As to the possibility of cheese; Time Stands Still is pretty ridiculous on its own for sheer number of attacks (since a TWFer with a BAB of at least 16 can get 14 attacks without any other additional-attack-granting abilities...). On the other hand, compared to some of the stuff that a 20th level spellcaster can pull off, it's not as impressive as it seems.

[Ixahinon]

Incidentally, what source are you getting your "HD every other level" from?

Libris Mortis. I'll use the Example of a wight on page 40

Wight
{table=head]level|Hit Dice|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skill Points|Special

1st|
1d12|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|
(4 + Int) x 4|Feat, Slam 1d4

2nd|
1d12|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|
-|+1 Natural Armor

3rd|
2d12|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|
4 + Int|+2 Cha

4th|
2d12|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|
- |+2 Natural Armor

5th|
3d12|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|
4 +Int |Feat, +2 Wis

6th|
3d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|
- |+3 Natural Armor

7th|
4d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|
4 + Int|+2 Str

8th|
4d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|
- |+4 Natural Armor, +2 Cha, Energy Drain, Create Spawn
[/table]

Unless that is to read that you roll 1d12 at first, 1d12 at second, and then 2d12 at third, and so on...I took it as every other level.

You also only get sill points on every odd level, which is every time yo uget a new hit die..so it made sense to me

[TSED]

I'm taking party level 11


This is basic make up of classes, not finished yet.

Extra book: Complete Scoundrel

Crusader 11, charge-focused, heals from devoted spirit are there too.
Scout/Ranger 4/7, scouting ability, basic ranged competence, some minor chargey goodness.
Warlock 11, UMD for versatility, ranged support / utility.
Druid 11, going to be built last to shore up weak points, probably have at least SOME healing.

I was originally going to go with Dragon Magic, then realised I needed more levels to get ahold of the stuff I wanted, so dropped that. Then I decided to go with Complete Scoundrel, but I could change my mind, go for another book, and drop the S/R for a bard still. Doubt it, but it's a possibility.

[Eurus]

Libris Mortis. I'll use the Example of a wight on page 40

Wight
{table=head]level|Hit Dice|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skill Points|Special

1st|
1d12|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|
(4 + Int) x 4|Feat, Slam 1d4

2nd|
1d12|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|
-|+1 Natural Armor

3rd|
2d12|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|
4 + Int|+2 Cha

4th|
2d12|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|
- |+2 Natural Armor

5th|
3d12|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|
4 +Int |Feat, +2 Wis

6th|
3d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|
- |+3 Natural Armor

7th|
4d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|
4 + Int|+2 Str

8th|
4d12|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|
- |+4 Natural Armor, +2 Cha, Energy Drain, Create Spawn
[/table]

Unless that is to read that you roll 1d12 at first, 1d12 at second, and then 2d12 at third, and so on...I took it as every other level.

You also only get sill points on every odd level, which is every time yo uget a new hit die..so it made sense to me

Ah, that's the monster class progression. The four levels that you're not getting hit dice, you're basically getting your level adjustment. From level 9 and on, though, you take class levels and get hit dice (still d12s, no matter what class you are) as normal.

[Ixahinon]

I know..but you are still looking at craptacular hp from levels 1-8. If you do it right, you can off set this with feats and what not...but still waaaay under par.

[Eurus]

True. At higher levels, it balances out somewhat, since your level adjustment becomes a smaller portion of your total level, but yeah, it hurts. Any race with a high level adjustment tends to run into that, though; undead just have it worse because they can't compensate with a high constitution. But hey, on the plus side, you get energy drain. :smallbiggrin:

[TheCountAlucard]

The monster classes (and the ideas behind them) are fairly suck-tastic. Look at the Mohrg. They're a CR 8 opponent, but it's supposed to be the equivalent of a 20th-level character...

Yeah, something is particularly messed up here. IMO, just having the Mohrg's abilities strewn out over fourteen hit dice is enough punishment. Don't even start comparing it to what an actual twentieth-level character has. Hell, even a blinded, one-armed monk is more useful in combat.

[Ixahinon]

Yes...I have Energy Drain with a DC of 30. I enjoy it.

Morhg does hurt...but I'd still do it...I could probably make a Morhg that walks around a monk.

[Doc Roc]

{Scrubbed, as I am trying to be less abrasive}

[Ixahinon]

You don't have to hold back for me, Tide. After all, I'm just doing this for fun...are you?

[afroakuma]

Can I be abrasive instead??? :smallbiggrin:

[Ixahinon]

don't hold back..but wait for me to get some tissues first.

[Doc Roc]

Can you avoid being abrasive? :: gentle smile ::

[Ixahinon]

Do multiple doses of poison stack? Example: Hit with purple worm poison...fail save..take 1d6 strength damage. Hit with it again, fail save, take another 1d6 strength damage...or can you not stack initial damage until secondary damage kicks in?

after I type it out..it sounds stupid if initial damage stacked.

[Colmarr]

I wish Afro and Zeta Kai would stop changing their avatars!

I just read three pages of forum before realising who was talking :smallannoyed:

[Olo Demonsbane]

...I was wondering why Zeta Kai was posting so much...

[Doc Roc]

Har Har Har.
Eventually I'll change mine, and no one will know what's going on at all.

[afroakuma]

I wish Afro and Zeta Kai would stop changing their avatars!

I just read three pages of forum before realising who was talking :smallannoyed:

It messes me up too. Switched back.

For now... :smallamused:

[Eurus]

Do multiple doses of poison stack? Example: Hit with purple worm poison...fail save..take 1d6 strength damage. Hit with it again, fail save, take another 1d6 strength damage...or can you not stack initial damage until secondary damage kicks in?

after I type it out..it sounds stupid if initial damage stacked.

I believe so. Never heard anything to the contrary, anyway.

As to Mr. Morhg, I'd say his biggest weakness as a fighter is hit points. True, he's got a high AC and decent saves, but his touch AC isn't too great, and one good Meteor Swarm does an average of 112 damage, assuming all hits (and even with a few misses, it'd still hurt). Some energy resistance from an item or two would help with that, though. The tongue is nasty, too. I know I wouldn't want to get in melee with him. :smallwink: But, eh... shouldn't his base attack bonus be +7, not +20?

[Ixahinon]

I believe so. Never heard anything to the contrary, anyway.

As to Mr. Morhg, I'd say his biggest weakness as a fighter is hit points. True, he's got a high AC and decent saves, but his touch AC isn't too great, and one good Meteor Swarm does an average of 112 damage, assuming all hits (and even with a few misses, it'd still hurt). Some energy resistance from an item or two would help with that, though. The tongue is nasty, too. I know I wouldn't want to get in melee with him. :smallwink: But, eh... shouldn't his base attack bonus be +7, not +20?


that build was to counter the 'A one handed monk can beat him' comment. If it was to be more well rounded...I'd maybe focus on some more stuff...like maybe items to help the skills Move Silently/Hide/Spot/Listen...since Mr. Morhg would likely strike from the darkness, rather than just charge in...cause yea..his hit points are his biggest weakness. And I would certainly take feats to up his turn resistance/energy resistance.

His bab is 7...but I spent 227,500gp for a continuous Amulet of Divine Power. For that +6 Strength Enchantment, BAB of 20, AND Temp Hit points that will restart at the start of each day.

If I had more money, I'd want something to fire off Negative Energy Aura for healing equivilent to Fast Healing 3-5 (Depending on how high I can enchant it) or just good 'ole Harm...but 760,000gps only goes so far...

The idea would be that if I can sneak up to a Wizard or Cleric, and initiate grapple (Mohrgs get Improved Grapple for free, provided they make an attack with their Slam)...or just lick 'em, and force 'em to make a DC 33 Fortitude that they are likely (I hope) to fail...then just Coup De Grace...

..But everything works perfectly on paper...God knows there are an ass load of arcane and divine spells to reveal a good sneaker.

It's just a shame I can't fit Lurking Terror in there for +3 to Paralysis DC check, +30 feet to Darkvision, and Hiding in Plain Sight.

EDIT: Personally, I find it really hard to go out of your way to up Touch AC...best ways I know how is High Dex, and +5 Protection...I don't know of any items that offer dodge bonuses to AC...else I'd get those too..I'd love to get Touch AC into the 30s to go with the 47 AC...but no idea how...

[Eurus]

His bab is 7...but I spent 227,500gp for a continuous Amulet of Divine Power. For that +6 Strength Enchantment, BAB of 20, AND Temp Hit points that will restart at the start of each day.

Oh, I see. Expensive as heck, but definitely worth it.

EDIT: Ghost Ward armor helps a bit with touch AC.

[Talic]

that build was to counter the 'A one handed monk can beat him' comment. If it was to be more well rounded...I'd maybe focus on some more stuff...like maybe items to help the skills Move Silently/Hide/Spot/Listen...since Mr. Morhg would likely strike from the darkness, rather than just charge in...cause yea..his hit points are his biggest weakness. And I would certainly take feats to up his turn resistance/energy resistance.

His bab is 7...but I spent 227,500gp for a continuous Amulet of Divine Power. For that +6 Strength Enchantment, BAB of 20, AND Temp Hit points that will restart at the start of each day.

If I had more money, I'd want something to fire off Negative Energy Aura for healing equivilent to Fast Healing 3-5 (Depending on how high I can enchant it) or just good 'ole Harm...but 760,000gps only goes so far...

The idea would be that if I can sneak up to a Wizard or Cleric, and initiate grapple (Mohrgs get Improved Grapple for free, provided they make an attack with their Slam)...or just lick 'em, and force 'em to make a DC 33 Fortitude that they are likely (I hope) to fail...then just Coup De Grace...

..But everything works perfectly on paper...God knows there are an ass load of arcane and divine spells to reveal a good sneaker.

It's just a shame I can't fit Lurking Terror in there for +3 to Paralysis DC check, +30 feet to Darkvision, and Hiding in Plain Sight.

EDIT: Personally, I find it really hard to go out of your way to up Touch AC...best ways I know how is High Dex, and +5 Protection...I don't know of any items that offer dodge bonuses to AC...else I'd get those too..I'd love to get Touch AC into the 30s to go with the 47 AC...but no idea how...

At ECL 20, a touch AC of 70 is not all that hard to get.

[Talic]

Do multiple doses of poison stack? Example: Hit with purple worm poison...fail save..take 1d6 strength damage. Hit with it again, fail save, take another 1d6 strength damage...or can you not stack initial damage until secondary damage kicks in?

after I type it out..it sounds stupid if initial damage stacked.

Let's take a poison example, where I correctly apply poison.

Joe McDwarfFighter, the Dwarf Fighter, is fighting 3 monstrous spiders. He wisely drinks an antitoxin in the first round.

Now Joe's AC isn't stellar, sadly enough, but he's tough as nails. So, it's no surprise when two spiders hit him.

He must make 2 saves versus poison. Call this Dose 1 and Dose 2.

Round two, he gets hit once. He must make another save. Call this Dose 3.

Round three, he gets hit twice. He needs two more saves, for Dose 4 and 5.

After this, the spiders all die, to a overzealous sword, a lightning bolt, and a flanking sneak attack.

Round 11, he'll make 2 more saves (Dose 1 and 2).
Round 12, he'll make another (Dose 3).
Round 13, he'll make 2 more saves (Dose 4 and 5).

Luckily, he's a dwarf fighter, with a high con, and an antitoxin. Most spiders haven't much chance of affecting him. But it's a total of 2 saves per dose, and all doses are independent of each other.

[Ixahinon]

EDIT: Ghost Ward armor helps a bit with touch AC.

I misread Ghost Ward...I thought it offered enchantment to touch AC only against Incorporeal Attacks..not everything...which makes me wonder...why is Ghost Touch just Icorporeal Attacks, and Ghost Ward everything? Odd... But yea...another +5 bonus to Touch AC from Ghost Ward would be sexy.

[Ixahinon]

I love how confusing D&D can be with their wordings.

When reading the text for Bracers of Armor, it says it generates a field of intangable force around the wearer. Then goes to say it grants +1 to +8 armor bonus to AC. If it generates force, wouldn't Bracers of Armor count against Incorporeal Touch Attacks?

Doesn't help Touch AC against spells...but I'm working on it. Strangely enough...I'm interested in making Mr. Morhg better...

[Doc Roc]

Questions:
Does swordsage count as a skill monkey?
Can we use feat rogue?
How much of the "skillmonkey" class do we need to use as a base?

Could I go Rogue3/Wb2/etc?

[afroakuma]

Questions:
Does swordsage count as a skill monkey?

How are you using it?

Probably not.


Can we use feat rogue?

Huh with the what now? :smallconfused: Explain?


How much of the "skillmonkey" class do we need to use as a base?

Your character needs to act as the skillmonkey. Your build needs to reflect that you are a skillmonkey, and plan on skillmonkeying in combat.

Short answer? No ToB for anyone who is not the beatstick please and thank you and have a lovely day with crumpets and strawberry jam.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How are you using it?

Probably not.



Huh with the what now? :smallconfused: Explain?



Your character needs to act as the skillmonkey. Your build needs to reflect that you are a skillmonkey, and plan on skillmonkeying in combat.

Short answer? No ToB for anyone who is not the beatstick please and thank you and have a lovely day with crumpets and strawberry jam.Swordsage gets light armor, wis to AC, only d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and 6+int skill points from a pretty nice list. No trapfinding, but a lot of other skillmonkey traits, and his maneuvers are based around using his opponents size against him, thinking his way through combat, and striking from concealment. It's the skillmonkey of ToB, and is generally used to replace the Rogue, Monk, Ninja, and similar classes.

Feat Rogue is UA, loses SA for fighter bonus feat progression.

[afroakuma]

Swordsage gets light armor, wis to AC, only d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and 6+int skill points from a pretty nice list. No trapfinding, but a lot of other skillmonkey traits, and his maneuvers are based around using his opponents size against him, thinking his way through combat, and striking from concealment. It's the skillmonkey of ToB, and is generally used to replace the Rogue, Monk, Ninja, and similar classes.

...then you would be using it as a skillmonkey, in which case go ahead.

I am not familiar with the book. I have not read it yet. If I see ToB, I assume it refers to a strong melee class. I know Warblade is a strong melee class, so that's pretty much out as far as your skillmonkey is concerned.

The intention clause is meant to have people self-regulate using common sense and their own actual plans for the build.


Feat Rogue is UA, loses SA for fighter bonus feat progression.

I don't think it should be available, no. Any DMs want to weigh in?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

...then you would be using it as a skillmonkey, in which case go ahead.

I am not familiar with the book. I have not read it yet. If I see ToB, I assume it refers to a strong melee class. I know Warblade is a strong melee class, so that's pretty much out as far as your skillmonkey is concerned.In short:
Warblade:
d12 HD, lots of offensive abilities, schools based on TWF(Jump), fighting smarter(Conc), hitting harder, and helping your allies. Fighter, Barbarian, similar non-magical martial classes.
Crusader:
d10 HD, lots of defensive abilities, schools based on defense and healing, hitting harder, and helping your allies. Paladin.
Swordsage:
d8 HD, lots of abilities to compensate for his skillmonkey-ness, schools based on TWF(Jump), fighting smarter(Conc), hitting harder, throwing the enemy, lighting the enemy on fire(tumble), and avoiding the enemy(hide). Rogue, Monk, similar skillmonkeys and magical meleers.

I mentioned skills if they're important to the school.

[afroakuma]

In short:
Warblade:
Fighter, Barbarian
Crusader:
Paladin.
Swordsage:
Monk, similar magical meleers.

Is what I was aware of going in.

[Ixahinon]

Don't know crap about UA, but wow, taking Rogue Feat for Fighter Feat Progression on Rogue? Very nice. Would allow for progression in to more trees.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack comes to mind, along with Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting (and Superior Two Weapon Fighting?)

That's the basic seven right there, and who cares about things like Improved Evasion when there are items out there to get 'em (Ring of Evasion) and probably spells.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't know crap about UA, but wow, taking Rogue Feat for Fighter Feat Progression on Rogue? Very nice. Would allow for progression in to more trees.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack comes to mind, along with Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting (and Superior Two Weapon Fighting?)

That's the basic seven right there, and who cares about things like Improved Evasion when there are items out there to get 'em (Ring of Evasion) and probably spells.You lose the Rogue SA for Fighter feats. You keep the other Rogue abilities. I've generally heard it's balanced, especially since you don't have the ability to use the Fighter feats to the same degree as an actual fighter(partial BAB).

[Doc Roc]

Could one get lords of madness as their extra book for mindsight and ocular spell? I wanna build the X-men!

[Ixahinon]

Ocular spell is the ****. I'd say yes just to see it.

Can I get a ECL 15 DM?

[SillyBee]

Ocular spell is the ****. I'd say yes just to see it.

Can I get a ECL 15 DM?

Do you have your heart set on a very experienced DM or are you up for a newer DM to run it?

[afroakuma]

Could one get lords of madness as their extra book for mindsight and ocular spell? I wanna build the X-men!

Yes, you may.

[Talic]

Note: Ocular spell is the basis for some metamagic abuse combos.

[Doc Roc]

True story. I will NOT be building the twice-betrayer of shaar, or anything like that. I do have a trick, but it's more funny than useful.

On DMing: I'm ready when Eurus or Terran is.

[Talic]

Afro, I'd like you to introduce a different villain for ECL 19-20. I wanna build something, but I've already witnessed the current one.

[Eurus]

True story. I will NOT be building the twice-betrayer of shaar, or anything like that. I do have a trick, but it's more funny than useful.

On DMing: I'm ready when Eurus or Terran is.

I'm almost ready. Finishing up my party is taking longer than expected.

[Doc Roc]

Don't worry, I understand. Mine took so much work it wasn't even funny. I was pretty upset when I couldn't use them, but they'll end up as NPCs in one of my campaigns or another. Should be cool! In fact, I think the primary arcanist already has a home!

[Keld Denar]

I was pretty upset when I couldn't use them

You can't honestly, and in good conscience, believe that playing with a Tainted Sorcerer would actually make it, right? Thats like bringing a tac nuke to a knife fight. I don't care how good you are at knife fighting, when the other guy levels 16 city blocks in a bright flash of light, you are dead. I don't mean to insult you, but come on...thats rediculous.

[Doc Roc]

I dropped tainted sorcerer at your request long before submitting them for approval.
If you must laud my nightmarish works, please, laud what I actually did. :: malevolent grin ::

[theterran]

True story. I will NOT be building the twice-betrayer of shaar, or anything like that. I do have a trick, but it's more funny than useful.

On DMing: I'm ready when Eurus or Terran is.

I've about got my Divine caster you stole remade :smallmad:

And my arcane is about refreshed...so I'm very close to being ready to die again! :smallamused:

[afroakuma]

Afro, I'd like you to introduce a different villain for ECL 19-20. I wanna build something, but I've already witnessed the current one.

*sigh* crap. I'll see what I can pull together.

[Eurus]

Don't worry, I understand. Mine took so much work it wasn't even funny. I was pretty upset when I couldn't use them, but they'll end up as NPCs in one of my campaigns or another. Should be cool! In fact, I think the primary arcanist already has a home!

Yeah... I still have most of my party's wealth to spend, which is one of the most difficult parts. I'm also trying to make sure I have all of my bases covered; I'd really hate it if something happened that I could have avoided/survived, if I was prepared for it.

[theterran]

Yeah... I still have most of my party's wealth to spend, which is one of the most difficult parts. I'm also trying to make sure I have all of my bases covered; I'd really hate it if something happened that I could have avoided/survived, if I was prepared for it.

You mean like an AMF going up and the cave collapsing on you? :smalleek:

[Talic]

You mean like an AMF going up and the cave collapsing on you? :smalleek:

I have been known to set 10x10x10 blocks of stone on top of forcecages, blended into the ceiling... lol Someone dispels or AMF's out, they have a squishy surprise.

[Eurus]

You mean like an AMF going up and the cave collapsing on you? :smalleek:

Heh, yeah, like that.

[Ixahinon]

Afrokuma...seriously..I got the perfect ECL 20 villian I would love to use...I've been debating PMing you for permission to use it..but been holding back for fear of a 'no.' I tested it with level 20 characters, and it should be just the challenge..and it will be fun...if you are interested in at least looking..let me know.

As for my ECL 15 DM? I don't care if they are experienced or not..we are all just here to have fun.

[afroakuma]

Go ahead and PM it to me.

[afroakuma]

Gentlefolk, this thread has hit the magic number. I've opened a new thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6325932#post6325932) and cleaned all the slates.

[Doc Roc]

Eurus, your avatar was kinda confusing me, since it's one of the really commonly used defaults. Attached is a stick-avvie of shodan if you would like it.

I can ditch the green backing, or put a "screen" around her. Up to you.

http://h1.ripway.com/DrRocktopus/Shodan3.png
Screen Frame:
http://h1.ripway.com/DrRocktopus/Shodan4.png


Not my best work, but was using no reference and no existing textures. Seemed appropriate, on a thread about villains.

[Eurus]

Ooh, cool. :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

You may wish to resize it. I make it a little bit intentionally. There's now a picture framed one, as well.

[Eurus]

How's that?

[Roland St. Jude]

Gentlefolk, this thread has hit the magic number. I've opened a new thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6325932#post6325932) and cleaned all the slates.

Sheriff of Moddingham: Enjoy your shiny new thread!