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afroakuma
2009-05-22, 09:12 PM
Alright, everyone, the last series of staged battles under the banner of Test Your Might were very enlightening. Now, I ask for challengers to face more complex foes.

As these foes are notably more complex, I've decided to apply more than just my own DM's perspective on how best to run them.

Test Your Might runs a mock battle between a four-person party and an unknown, homebrewed opposition, via PbP. If you would like to join on the players' side, please read the Players' Rules (and only the Players' Rules) below. If you would like to join on the DMs' side, all information is available to you.


Players' Rules
You will be constructing a party of four characters, to a reasonable level of optimization, with the following rules:

• The party must all be the same level

• If you have XP costs to pay or abilities requiring XP, you are treated as having half the amount it would take for you to reach the next level. You cannot spend XP over this limit.

• The party has free rein to purchase goods and magic items as their WBL would allow, excepting items which grant a wish or gate power or a fashion to obtain same (candle of invocation, ring of three wishes etc.)

• Each character uses a 32 point buy.

• HP is full on first HD, average on every HD thereafter, rounded down.

• The party must conform to these specifications:

○○○ One barbarian, fighter, monk, psionic warrior or Complete Warrior base class

○○○ One bard, ranger, rogue or Complete Adventurer base class

○○○ One cleric, druid, paladin or Complete Divine base class

○○○ One psion, sorcerer, wilder, wizard or Complete Arcane base class

(or, to put it more succintly, one beatstick, one skillmonkey, one healbot and one blaster)

• The books allowed are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. The character in each role can use the Complete book from their listing.

• You may select one additional sourcebook from the following list: Complete Champion, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel; or, you may request specific material from another book.

• If one or more of your characters are psionic, you may exchange the Complete book that character would normally be permitted with Complete Psionic. Should you choose to do so, the original book is no longer available and must be used as an extra source if used at all. You must do this for each character who wishes to use Complete Psionic if you do not intend to select it as your extra source.

• The Leadership feat is specifically banned.

• The Craft Contingent Spell feat is specifically banned.

• The spell genesis is specifically banned.

• Explicit cheese is to be kept to a minimum.


DM's Rules
We are planning the best stratagem for a villain to take on a party of four. Each villain available is homebrewed; some have abilities that permit creative exploitation of the rules, others have budgets beyond a PC of their ECL.

We may set up to reasonable parameters the area of the encounter and dictate the encounter range. Any questions or difficulties that might crop up, or ambiguities raised by a particular rule, ability etc. must be determined in advance if needed.

For the combat setup, you must also dictate lighting conditions and decor. Ad hoc rulings as necessary are encouraged. Until the party can actually see the enemy, list all enemy initiative rolls and actions in a spoiler under the bolded heading Observers Only. Any other battle data that the player should not be privy to should also go in such a spoiler.

For the ease of observers, any rules discussion, clarification, debate etc. should take place in Spoiler tags.

• ECL 1-2 is an underwater encounter against a CR 4 merfolk Sorcerer.

• ECL 5 is a cavern encounter against a CR 8 predatory vermin.

• ECL 7-9 is an encounter against a CR 12 living bodak with an energy draining ray.

• ECL 9-10 is an encounter against a CR 14 unseelie fey Hexblade.

• ECL 10-11 {New!} is an indoor encounter against a CR 15 sentient living spell.

• ECL 12-13 is a stealth encounter against a CR 17 Ninja assassin.

• ECL 14 is a cavern encounter against a CR 19 predatory vermin.

• ECL 15-16 is a dark encounter against a CR 20 wraith dragon.

• ECL 20 is an encounter against a CR 25 lich.


Battle Rules

• Encounters occur in a chamber dictated by the needs of the opposition, in an otherwise infinite and unoccupied world.

• Encounters occur without foreknowledge on the part of either side.

• Encounters occur at a range determined by the DMs.

• No external force is paying active attention to the conflict. No planar entity of any kind will provide you pre-battle assistance.

• The party may elect to begin combat having had time to generally prepare (including buffs) or not. If they choose the former, then the opposition benefits from same.

• The party may alternately elect to begin combat with all-day preparations intact only. If they do so, then the opposition benefits from same. An all-day buff is one which has a duration of at least 12 hours, or a spell cast multiple times to a total duration of at least 12 hours (in which case you begin battle as though you had cast that spell every single time).

• The party cannot bring called or summoned beings, or allies other than those granted by class feature, to the start of the battle.

• All rolls (both player's and DM's) are made using the forum roller and are made public.


Battles Currently Available
• Party ECL 1-2

• Party ECL 5 Starbuck II vs. ?

• Party ECL 7-9 (Villain by Talic)

• Party ECL 7-9 Starbuck II vs. ?

• Party ECL 9-10

• Party ECL 10-11 {New!}

• Party ECL 12-13

• Party ECL 14

• Party ECL 15-16

• Party ECL 20 Ixahinon vs. Keld Denar


Seeking DMs for ECL 5 and ECL 7-9

Currently Running:

Soundstage A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6187545&posted=1#post6187545) (Empty)
- vs. -

Soundstage B (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6159040#post6159040) (ECL 7-9)
Fenix of Doom vs. Talic

Soundstage C (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6205122#post6205122) (ECL 15-16)
Eurus vs. Talic

Soundstage D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6172523#post6172523) (ECL 5)
lord_khaine vs. Jkoshe

Soundstage E (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6190089#post6190089) (ECL 9-10)
Ernir vs. Adumbration

Soundstage F (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6284755#post6284755) (ECL 7-9)
Master Rahl22 vs. Ixahinon

Soundstage G (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6194825#post6194825) (ECL 9-10)
Chain vs. TheCountAlucard

Soundstage H (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113518) (Empty)
- vs. -

Trials to Date: 14

Results
Trial I Adumbration vs afroakuma
ECL 1-2
Buff Time None
7 rounds
TPK

Trial III Jkoshe vs afroakuma
ECL 7-9
Buff Time None
9 rounds
Concession (2 fatalities)

Trial IV Archetype- vs Olo Demonsbane
ECL 14
Buff Time Day-long
7 rounds
TPK

Trial V Talic vs Siosilvar
ECL 5
Buff Time None
9 rounds
Player Victory

Trial VI Saph vs afroakuma
ECL 1-2
Buff Time None
12 rounds
Player Victory

Trial ? Eurus vs Dark Scary
ECL 14
Buff Time Day-long
Duration unknown
Concession (3 fatalities)

Trial X Bakkan vs Saph
ECL 1-2
Buff Time None
8 rounds
TPK

Trial XI Glimbur vs Saph
ECL 1-2
Buff Time None
15 rounds
TPK

Non-Trial Tidesinger vs (not played)
ECL 20
Buff Time Undeclared
Not run
Pre-trial concession

Trial Special Olo Demonsbane vs Jkoshe (Jkoshe)
ECL 3 (Jkoshe)
Buff Time Day Long
247 rounds
Player Victory (2 fatalities)

Keld Denar
2009-05-22, 09:39 PM
Shotgun DMing role! I had so much fun last time killing StarbuckII's party with badass Pandamoniites last time. Totally up to doing it again!

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 09:58 PM
Wait until you see what we're playing with this time. :smallwink:

7th lvl scrub
2009-05-22, 10:00 PM
*Raises hand to be player*

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 10:11 PM
The list of battles available is up if you want to put your name down.

Keld Denar
2009-05-22, 10:25 PM
I'll take ECL 12-13 and 20, and even 9-10 as needed. Heck, I'd take anything, depending on player demand, but dealing with high level is something that I can do, and well. Oh goody...

/maniacal cackling

Mando Knight
2009-05-22, 10:25 PM
Why does Paladin get lumped into the Healbot section? With full BAB, d10 hitdice, heavy armor, and a few class features that help with Ubercharger builds, the class is more of a beatstick...

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 10:26 PM
I'll take ECL 12-13 and 20, and even 9-10 as needed. Heck, I'd take anything, depending on player demand, but dealing with high level is something that I can do, and well. Oh goody...

/maniacal cackling

I've forwarded you the details on those battles. I think you'll be quite amused with one of them... :smallwink:


Why does Paladin get lumped into the Healbot section? With full BAB, d10 hitdice, heavy armor, and a few class features that help with Ubercharger builds, the class is more of a beatstick...

Complete Divine. Honestly, though, if you wanted to shuffle him over to beatstick, I wouldn't much care.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-22, 10:44 PM
Never done this before, but...

I'd kinda like to give the ECL 9-10 a try. :smallsmile:

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 10:46 PM
Playing or DMing?

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-22, 10:56 PM
Oops! :smallredface:

DMing. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-05-22, 11:01 PM
I've forwarded the opposition for ECL 9-10 to you.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-22, 11:05 PM
Awesome!

...

(checks PM box)

...

I don't think I got it. :smallfrown:

...

(starts thinking about bacon)

...

(checks PM box about a minute later)

Ah, here it is! :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-05-23, 12:23 AM
A gauntlet was handed to me. I will build, a second of suitable skill will play.

:: bows ::

We will take ECL 12, I believe, if no one else wants it.
Do you have an upper limit on permitted damage dealt per shot?

sofawall
2009-05-23, 01:33 AM
I'll snag ECL 2, if possible.

To play, preferably.

Also, stats?

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-23, 02:01 AM
What the heck... why no ECL 6?

BobVosh
2009-05-23, 02:33 AM
Player ECL 5

Partial charge wands allowed? >.>

I'm generally not terrific with optimization, but reasonably good in game. How optimized should this be?

Also time limits on character creation?

Coidzor
2009-05-23, 02:50 AM
Ooo... Villain Testing Grounds... Good idea. :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2009-05-23, 04:47 AM
Volunteer as OpFor (DM). I love me some creative.

Specifically, I prefer the mid-range challenges... ECL 7-13. However, I can take any level.

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 05:27 AM
Volunteering for 12-13 player. This time I'll hopefully get the damnable party done before the thing just collapses -.- Well, at least I don't have more than two full casters to fill up so it should be a bit faster.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-23, 05:50 AM
Do you need 1 player and dm per ECL or do you take as many as you can get?

Also I'd like to do the players in the 7-9 range(Edit: 9-10 would be fine too), as they are the most interesting not yet taken characters. What is the expected optimalization level? I probebly won't be able to create a top-tier party, but I think I could manage to create a decent one.
I need some more info as well, how many PB? I assumed 28, but I'm willing to work with anything. Should I focus on combat with this party, or should I include utility/social skills?

Last why no PHB 2? it's one of my favourites.(even if the classes aren't allowed, I can imagine using duskblade as fighter and beguiler as skill monkey would be against the test your trying to run. A knight could be nice though)
edit: then again, with the bard and psywar already in, then why not the PHB classes.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-23, 06:58 AM
I might be interested in playing 12-13 or 20.

Question: Are we allowed to subvert party roles IE: Grappling wizard, skillmonkey cleric, healing bard and if we're feeling particularly silly: A Giacomo monk?

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 07:13 AM
We will take ECL 12, I believe, if no one else wants it.
Do you have an upper limit on permitted damage dealt per shot?

Well, I'm going to have to see the build beforehand. The last time I ran this exercise, overoptimization rendered it largely pointless.


Also, stats?

Good point. Would everyone be alright with 32 point buy?


What the heck... why no ECL 6?

There isn't one available at the moment. I could probably have the ECL 5 one run one level up...


Partial charge wands allowed? >.>

Since the badguys get them too... :smallamused:


I'm generally not terrific with optimization, but reasonably good in game. How optimized should this be?

Reasonable is all I ask.

These battles are intended to be more tactical in any event. Uberchargers need not apply. And in at least one instance, would fail and die horribly.


Also time limits on character creation?

We're giving it a few days to plan out. I have an American long weekend +1, being Canadian (:smalltongue:), so I have a fair bit of time for setup and operations.


Volunteer as OpFor (DM). I love me some creative.

Specifically, I prefer the mid-range challenges... ECL 7-13. However, I can take any level.

I've forwarded you the opposition at those levels to look over.


Do you need 1 player and dm per ECL or do you take as many as you can get?

I don't mind running multiple trials of the same enemies. It was profitable last time.


What is the expected optimalization level? I probebly won't be able to create a top-tier party, but I think I could manage to create a decent one.

A decent one is what we're looking for. Crazy tripping builds, uberchargers, nightstick abuse and metamagic cheese need not apply.


I need some more info as well, how many PB? I assumed 28, but I'm willing to work with anything. Should I focus on combat with this party, or should I include utility/social skills?

32 point buy. Social skills are only as practical as the foe you're facing. Diplomancers will be dropped into the center of the earth. Utility skills may be extremely important depending on the battlefield conditions.


Last why no PHB 2? it's one of my favourites.

If you want something from it, the rules state you're allowed to request it.


Question: Are we allowed to subvert party roles IE: Grappling wizard, skillmonkey cleric, healing bard and if we're feeling particularly silly: A Giacomo monk?

Uh... sure.

Talic
2009-05-23, 08:21 AM
I'm locked in at ECL 7-9. No creative juices needed! Hooray for afro with his mad villainy skillz!

7th lvl scrub
2009-05-23, 08:34 AM
I'd go for anything that's 9-10, 12-13, or 20.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-23, 08:46 AM
Alright. I should have some level 12-13 characters for you soon-ish. 20 will take some time. Are we limited to only one level range or can we have multiple parties per person?

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 08:54 AM
You can go for more than one if you like.

7th lvl scrub
2009-05-23, 09:05 AM
Are flaws allowed?

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 09:06 AM
Unearthed Arcana material is allowed. So yes. Up to two, as normal.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-23, 09:08 AM
Good, good.

As for my request: Tome of Battle. It's widely used, and I was wondering if it was possible to use material in it? In particular I'm looking at Crusader for my beatstick role and swordsage for my skillmonkey role.

Overall Level 13 party composition at the moment:

Beatstick: Crusader/Cleric of Wee Jas/Ruby Knight Vindicator. Very powerful self-buffing beatstick, not as effective as main cleric, but still useful in shoring up holes in the defenses.

Skillmonkey: Rogue/Swordsage. Very simple straight-forward skill monkey. Doubles as beat-stick when the chips are down.

Band-aid: Cloistered Cleric/Divine Oracle/Contemplative. Rather straight forward cleric with lots of spell options. Possibly of Boccob or another magic deity if I'm required to select one in particular.

Blaster Caster: Warmage/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. Straight forward caster with lots of spells. The ability to blast and battlefield control.

Class level distribution is to be determined.

Ernir
2009-05-23, 09:13 AM
I volunteer as a player for anything from 5 to 13. I do not have a strict preference on which. Just let me know if I can be of use.:smallsmile:

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 09:19 AM
As for my request: Tome of Battle. It's widely used, and I was wondering if it was possible to use material in it? In particular I'm looking at Crusader for my beatstick role and swordsage for my skillmonkey role.

Ehhh.....

I'm inclined to say pick one or the other, but I'm not feeling overly critical at the moment, so alright.


Beatstick: Crusader/Cleric of Wee Jas/Ruby Knight Vindicator. Very powerful self-buffing beatstick, not as effective as main cleric, but still useful in shoring up holes in the defenses.

RKV is a PRC from the TOB. (Hey, that rhymes!)

It's starting to stretch the "specific material" clause at this point.


Skillmonkey: Rogue/Swordsage. Very simple straight-forward skill monkey. Doubles as beat-stick when the chips are down.

Different. Alright.


Band-aid: Cloistered Cleric/Divine Oracle/Contemplative. Rather straight forward cleric with lots of spell options. Possibly of Boccob or another magic deity if I'm required to select one in particular.

Meh; I'm not too concerned about which god you go with, or that you actually do.

Not surprised by the chosen build, either.


Blaster Caster: Warmage/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. Straight forward caster with lots of spells. The ability to blast and battlefield control.

UM is from Complete Mage. You can't have access to both TOB and CM per the rules.


Class level distribution is to be determined.

Fair enough.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-23, 09:54 AM
UM is from Complete Mage. You can't have access to both TOB and CM per the rules.

Ah. Hm. That puts a bit of a damper on my blaster caster of choice. Suppose I could go with...

Wizard/Mage of the Arcane Order/Archmage. Still gives lots of versatility, but at a slight cost due to the Spellpool's limit on it's daily uses.

Alternatively: Cerebremancer has always intrigued me. Though the only effective entrance method is Wizard 3/Psion 3, which results in a mere Wizard 10/Psion 10 for spells and powers. Ultimately the question comes down to: Are fifth level powers worth losing sixth level spells?

My third choice would be a Telepath/Thrallherd if available.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 12:23 PM
Tell you what; it's an interesting combination, so what say I give it a pass? (Warmage/Wiz UM)

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 12:33 PM
I've reviewed and preped the 3 high level brackets, so the sooner you get your characters in to me or AA, the sooner we can get started!

And Eldariel, the last run wasn't a dud. I ran 2 encounters with AA, a couple other people ran some encounters with AA, I ran 1 with Fax (poor Fax...) and StarbuckII ran one with me. We managed to playtest a good portion of his Pandamonium crew which lead to some interesting revelations on the part of AA as far as fine tuning his creations.

I'd be interested in seeing the party you come up with Eldariel :P

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 01:00 PM
Yeah; we ran out of things to test, really.

That's why these trials are different. The parties are less overblown, while the enemies are all serious threats. The encounters at 12-13 and 20 should kill at least a couple of parties. Keld can vouch for that.

There will be a few more mid-level brackets added, and one higher-level one.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 03:54 PM
Alright, I added a new bracket: ECL 15-16.

Talic
2009-05-23, 03:54 PM
I'll also volunteer to run one of the 12-13 brackets, as CR 7-9 seems to be less than popular, lol.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 03:58 PM
Alright; forwarding you the opposition.

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 04:04 PM
Hm, I might actually want to play 15-16. 1, it's more clearcut than 12-13 (there's a spell level of difference there) and 2, I've always loved high-level play. Also, 3, people are unlike to enjoy it as much as I, so I'd like to go for it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-23, 04:09 PM
Hmmm... a little more restrictive than the last test. No ToB, and only ONE Complete x book... that severely limits the Ubercharger type builds (who generally require both CWar for Shock Trooper and CAdv for Leap Attack), and really puts a crimp in my skillmonkey (who uses stuff from CAdv and, more importantly, ToB). My healbot is not a problem, being core, but my caster needs both CMage and CArc to function properly... hmm...

You may remember these characters... they're roughly the same ones you encountered last time... although I promise no Banishing this time (and what kind of screwy luck did I have to banish the one with SR and leave the 'beatstick')

this will take a bit of thought, and I need to get to work soon. I'll see what I can come up with.

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 04:13 PM
Heh, I'm a bit torn. I want a Psy War for my beatstick, but without Complete Psionics (and thus Linked Power) I'd be running a bit short there. And yet I dislike using the one extra book on just a single friggin' feat (I'd at least want Penetrating Strike for my Rogue from Dungeonscape ['cause I think all Rogues should start with it]; also, Complete Scoundrel is just cool as I love skill tricks).

Bleh, I guess I can work with CPsi + allowed books with Druid / Wizard (+ whatever PrCs) / Rogue / Psychic Warrior, but meh. Blah, I'd really want Lords of Madness for my Pseudodragon Familiar to pick up Mindsight. Oh well.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 04:17 PM
Would people feel better if Tome of Battle were a default book?


Hmmm... a little more restrictive than the last test.

Quite deliberate. Wanna know why?


You may remember these characters... they're roughly the same ones you encountered last time...

That's why. You and Keld and one other surfed all over my creatures.


No ToB, and only ONE Complete x book... that severely limits the Ubercharger type builds (who generally require both CWar for Shock Trooper and CAdv for Leap Attack)

Also deliberate.


and really puts a crimp in my skillmonkey (who uses stuff from CAdv and, more importantly, ToB). My healbot is not a problem, being core, but my caster needs both CMage and CArc to function properly... hmm...

although I promise no Banishing this time (and what kind of screwy luck did I have to banish the one with SR and leave the 'beatstick')

Really though. These battles are more dangerous and more tactical.


this will take a bit of thought, and I need to get to work soon. I'll see what I can come up with.

Awesome. Any chosen level?

Eldariel: Switched you over.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-23, 04:20 PM
Would people feel better if Tome of Battle were a default book?Dunno; haven't read it. :smallredface:

Talic
2009-05-23, 04:20 PM
Heh, I'm a bit torn. I want a Psy War for my beatstick, but without Complete Psionics (and thus Linked Power) I'd be running a bit short there. And yet I dislike using the one extra book on just a single friggin' feat (I'd at least want Penetrating Strike for my Rogue from Dungeonscape ['cause I think all Rogues should start with it]; also, Complete Scoundrel is just cool as I love skill tricks).

Odd, Darkstalker from Lords of Madness is my one Rogue "must-have" ability.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 04:22 PM
Eldariel, I'm runnin the high level, assuming AA is still cool with it. I'd like to see what you come up with. I'd also be a bit more inclined to allow more in at higher levels, since the power gap between casters/non-casters INCREASES with exclusivity of material. But...this is AA's experiment, so its ultimately up to him. Just sayin, I wouldn't have a problem with higher levels using ToB AND CScoundrel AND Dungeonscape.

My only stipulation on ToB though, would be that anyone using RKV follow the FAQ's recommendation on Divine Impetus. Novaing 12 swift actions in one combat strains any system. 1 extra per round you spend a TU attempt is what that comes down to. Still good, but for an ability you can't get till 12+, it should be good.

Also, Shneeky, reread the challenge. All of the T1 Complete Books are in (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer). The only restriction is the T2 Completes (Mage, Scoundrel, Champion).

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-23, 04:24 PM
I have my party mostly figured out, I still have some minor issues and I'm still working on the spells, but the general idea is there. I have made an account at myth-weavers especially for this event, shall I pm you the links so you can get an idea of the power level and tell me tone screw it up or town it down if necessary?

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 04:26 PM
Eldariel, I'm runnin the high level, assuming AA is still cool with it.

Of course; I've noticed that I tend to be weaker at directing my baddies. I'll stay on in consult mode.

Although - you haven't mentioned the ECL 15-16. I had thought you were running the ECL 20?


I'd like to see what you come up with. I'd also be a bit more inclined to allow more in at higher levels, since the power gap between casters/non-casters INCREASES with exclusivity of material. But...this is AA's experiment, so its ultimately up to him. Just sayin, I wouldn't have a problem with higher levels using ToB AND CScoundrel AND Dungeonscape.

Like I said, I'm going to allow ToB completely. If you want something from Dungeonscape, just ask. If you really want something from two books, ditto. The blanket proscription is to cut down on serious exploits, like the Ubercharger.


I have my party mostly figured out, I still have some minor issues and I'm still working on the spells, but the general idea is there. I have made an account at myth-weavers especially for this event, shall I pm you the links so you can get an idea of the power level and tell me tone screw it up or town it down if necessary?

You can post the party links here, and I'll take a look. I have to rotate my inbox too often these days. Something about a testing arena and a campaign setting and adventure consulting and... :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 04:29 PM
The blanket proscription is to cut down on serious exploits, like the Ubercharger.

Nothing a single Grease spell can't fix....Can't make dex checks in a frenzy, just roll around on the floor like a gutted fish.

:P

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 04:31 PM
Nothing a single Grease spell can't fix....Can't make dex checks in a frenzy, just roll around on the floor like a gutted fish.

:P

Assuming you have time to do it; what was it you tried? Hummingbird familiar?

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 04:37 PM
Assuming you have time to do it; what was it you tried? Hummingbird familiar?

Yea...that and the cohort with a single level of Marshall and the Chained Nerveskitter and all that. Having your whole team with an Init mod of around +20 is pretty badass!

:P

PS, I'm assuming Leadership is banned? If its not already, it should most definitely be.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 04:39 PM
Yea...that and the cohort with a single level of Marshall and the Chained Nerveskitter and all that. Having your whole team with an Init mod of around +20 is pretty badass!

Hey, would you look at that - the Miniatures Handbook is disallowed...?

I wonder why. :smalltongue:


PS, I'm assuming Leadership is banned? If its not already, it should most definitely be.

Right. Learned that mistake last time.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-23, 04:49 PM
I'm a bit new to this, so let's see if this works the way I assume it does.


Warning: do not read spoiler if you are going to be my DM

These are basically four concepts I wanted to try out, none are highly optimised, but none are breathtakingly stupid either, I personally feel this is a decent representation of the power level in D&D games as I know them.


Bard Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128071) Fills the skillmonkey role and buffs party, I skipped search etc because of you earlier responce to my question

Druid wildshaper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128035) is more like a charger right now, but also provides healing if needed. Unbuffed ac is low, so dispel magic will hurt.
animal companion (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128093) for refrence


Horizon tripper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128034) or at least my take on the build.

FS conjuration wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128036), this is actually a backup character that I leveled up, I tried to remove all traces from PHB II from it, if you find anything let me know. Edit: it's worth mentioning that I used complete arcane and mage on this one.

Creating the spell lists of the druid and wizard are going to be the most time consuming jobs I have left, I don't think I'll manage it before the end of the day(10 minutes).

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 04:55 PM
Odd, Darkstalker from Lords of Madness is my one Rogue "must-have" ability.

Well, Darkstalker is a feat. Of course one every one of my Rogues picks, but still a feat; Penetrating Strike is an alternative class feature - not as much a necessary addition, but what I think is an ability that should have been in the core design all along. Being a complete "on/off"-character kinda sucks.


As for ToB being a standard book, I absolutely agree. That would give me an option for a beatstick outside Psychic Warrior. On level 15, Barbarian/Fighter/Monk might as well be gathering dirt in the corner, but a ToB-class at least has sufficient mobility to reach an opponent, and more relevantly, the ability to move and attack profittably in a turn.

Another book allowance I'd like for is to be able to mix the books a bit. For example, for my melee type, I'd really want access to Mage Slayer and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (yes, he's going to be a control-type either way) but they just happen to be in Complete Arcane instead of Complete Warrior.

If you really don't want Chargers (no way to build άberchargers with these books), just ban Leap Attack or Shock Trooper or cap Power Attack at ½ BAB or some such. Done, and done.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-23, 05:00 PM
Would people feel better if Tome of Battle were a default book? That would make things a lot more... interesting :smallbiggrin:


Quite deliberate. Wanna know why?



That's why. You and Keld and one other surfed all over my creatures. Oh, come on. You were the one who walked right into a Gatling Tripper and into the range of the Pouncing TWF Sneak Attacker


Also deliberate.



Really though. These battles are more dangerous and more tactical. See above. Mostly, I got lucky with the banishment, then you charged right into my trap.


Awesome. Any chosen level?

Eldariel: Switched you over.
Dunno yet. Going to have to think about it. Probably 15-16 category.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 05:01 PM
Another book allowance I'd like for is to be able to mix the books a bit. For example, for my melee type, I'd really want access to Mage Slayer and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (yes, he's going to be a control-type either way) but they just happen to be in Complete Arcane instead of Complete Warrior.

You may do so.


If you really don't want Chargers (no way to build άberchargers with these books), just ban Leap Attack or Shock Trooper or cap Power Attack at ½ BAB or some such. Done, and done.

If I were to ban another thing, it would be Shock Trooper.


That would make things a lot more... interesting :smallbiggrin:

Oh dear. :smalleek:

Thankfully, these foes are different in two important ways:

A) They're smarter, elite and ready.

B) They're being run by people who have been on the other side of the fence. And who are better combat DMs than me by far.


Oh, come on. You were the one who walked right into a Gatling Tripper and into the range of the Pouncing TWF Sneak Attacker

Oh come on. You were the one who built something called a Gatling Tripper. :smallyuk:


Going to have to think about it. Probably 15-16 category.

I'll pencil you in.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 05:12 PM
Dunno yet. Going to have to think about it. Probably 15-16 category.

SHOTGUN!

:P

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-23, 05:16 PM
SHOTGUN!

:P

Question: for buffs which have hours/day duration, or have a duration long enough to last all day resonabally (i.e. Hero's Feast), is my party assumed to have cast them before leaving their Magnificant Mansion that day and have them active during the fight?

I'm not asking for 'buff rounds', but those buffs which would reasonably have a duration long enough that it would still be active at any time the party can be encountered?

Edit: Oh, here's the links to the 'unaltered' characters which I will be modifying to comply with the ruleset. Having said that, each one will more or less have the same archetype/roll and same general concept for going about performing that archetype/roll.

Bob Bast (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102981) the semi-gattling tripper and general all-round meat shield. Nerfs will include not as uber-chargy due to book limitations.

Pip Squeak (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102949) the Rogue/Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master. Your general pouncing TWF precision-based damage dealer. Also backup UMD elemental blastomancy in the event he encounters oozes. Possible nerfs depending on which Complete book I have, which determines which material I have available to work with

Sam Sung (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102970) the Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order. I'm probably going to have to choose one of Complete Arcane or Complete Mage, and use PrC's for him out of one of those two books, since he needs the most help.

Theo Logan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102982) the Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor[/url] is my healbot/buffman. Divine Metamagic is used, but not abused, with Chain Spell for daily buffing. No Clericzilla, no abusing Persist. I can just as easily dump RSoP and go straight Cleric.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 05:21 PM
That pretty much goes without saying. Things like GMW, Heart of Earth, Mage Armor, or the like. They'll be up, assuming you can get to at least 12 hours. Likewise, if you devote enough resources to a 10 minute buff to get to 12 hours, that would suffice, IMO (like 3 CL12 Extended Magic Circles would work).

EDIT:
I stand corrected.

EDIT2:

Theo Logan...I get it!

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 05:24 PM
Question: for buffs which have hours/day duration, or have a duration long enough to last all day resonabally (i.e. Hero's Feast), is my party assumed to have cast them before leaving their Magnificant Mansion that day and have them active during the fight?

No. If you want buffs, you have to accept that the enemy gets likewise. If you believe there to be a point in both sides having had a heroes' feast, then call for the extra time.

You get no pre-battle prep unless you accept the buff rounds.

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 05:29 PM
No. If you want buffs, you have to accept that the enemy gets likewise. If you believe there to be a point in both sides having had a heroes' feast, then call for the extra time.

You get no pre-battle prep unless you accept the buff rounds.

What's the point in this limitation though? I mean, you're testing these to be used in actual games, right? And in actual games, adventuring parties with access to 1 hour/level buffs/protections (that is, all with casters in them) are going to have them on all day.

So for a relevant result, you'd have to allow all-day buffs for both sides, and probably few short duration buffs for the monsters (assuming they're the aggressors and thus can anticipate the encounter). They're a part of the characters' and creatures' abilities after all, much like magic items.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 05:31 PM
Fer serious...mages have Mage Armor...no one questions it...they just do.

Likewise, some spells, like Superior Resistance, have 24 hour durations. Thats a LONG time. Unless it gets purged off somehow, it should be there.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-23, 05:32 PM
Sneeky, what does Collision do?
It seems we tried to build something similar, my choice was between impaling and extra damage, if your enchantment is good I may take it myself.

Edit: I agree with the two above posters, long term buffs are not cast in buff rounds and as such should not count toward them, if opponents have long term spells I expect them to cast them as well.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 05:36 PM
What's the point in this limitation though? I mean, you're testing these to be used in actual games, right? And in actual games, adventuring parties with access to 1 hour/level buffs/protections (that is, all with casters in them) are going to have them on all day.

So for a relevant result, you'd have to allow all-day buffs for both sides, and probably few short duration buffs for the monsters (assuming they're the aggressors and thus can anticipate the encounter). They're a part of the characters' and creatures' abilities after all, much like magic items.

Exactly. The ruling I just made is, "If one side gets all-day buffs, both do." Shneekey was asking if he could get all-day buffs without letting the opposition have buffing time.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-23, 05:37 PM
Sneeky, what does Collision do?
It seems we tried to build something similar, me choice were between impaling and extra damage, if your enchantment is good I may take it myself.

Collision is in the SRD. It's a +2 enhancement equivelant which adds a flat +5 to damage.

And to AfroAkuma... perhaps a compromise:

There are three levels of 'buffage' allowed:

1) None whatsoever. Buff nekkid.

2) 'all day long' buffs. Aything with more than a 12 hour duration, or if you have spent multiple slots, and are prepared to burn them ALL before the fight, anything you can end up with more than 12 hours. (like Keld pointed out, if you are willing to burn 3 extended 10 min/level duration spells... fine). For both sides. In other words, if NPC's have any effects with duration of 12+ hours, they get them as well. This keeps Foresight cheese (mostly) out of the fight, but common tactics like GMW in.

3) As above plus number of 'buff rounds' for both sides.

EDIT: Ahh, I see the miscommunication. No, I'm saying I want long-term buffs, and opponents can have long-term buffs. What I don't want is I'm decked out in things like GMW, and you end up with your whole encounter with things like Nerveskitter, Foresight, and Divine Might up.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 05:39 PM
So what you're proposing boils down to:

• Long buffs only (both sides)

• All buffs (both sides)

As long as both sides have the same prep, it's fine.

I'll add this to the rules, then.


Buff nekkid

And yet somehow not "in the buff" :smalltongue:

Talic
2009-05-23, 05:46 PM
Consider me added for 15-16 as well.

This brings challenges I am willing to personally run to:

7-9
11-13
15-16

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 05:49 PM
It's been marked.

I can't wait for these trials; they're gonna be fun.

Siosilvar
2009-05-23, 05:54 PM
Seems like we have no DMs for 1-2 or 5... I'll take ECL 5.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-23, 05:57 PM
Unfortunately I have been robbed of my mouse for the foreseeable future, so I won't be nearly as quick getting those characters put together as I am limited to a touch-pad mouse and my keyboard. Is tomorrow reasonable?

Also: Since ToB is now a standard book(as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong) then would it be possible to instead ask for Complete Mage as my book of choice was ToB?

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 06:03 PM
So what you're proposing boils down to:

• Long buffs only (both sides)

• All buffs (both sides)

As long as both sides have the same prep, it's fine.

I'll add this to the rules, then.

Yeah. "No buffs"-fight is very artificial and a scenario that practically never comes up in real games (save dead magic zone fights, but those would include other stipulations like "magic items are inert" and "spellcasters are dead weight"), so I don't think it serves the purpose of these tests well. As I see it, "no buffs" is really only a rule suitable for arenas.

This seems great. I think everything is in place now. All I've got to do is to make my party. Even with the addition of ToB though, I think I'm still going Psy War, just because I haven't used them too much and there's some novelty to them. I'll probably acquire Thicket of Blades though, just for a more complete lockdown set. It's not like Psy Wars were short of feats anyways.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 06:10 PM
Seems like we have no DMs for 1-2 or 5... I'll take ECL 5.

Alright; I've sent you the opposition.


Unfortunately I have been robbed of my mouse for the foreseeable future, so I won't be nearly as quick getting those characters put together as I am limited to a touch-pad mouse and my keyboard. Is tomorrow reasonable?

Also: Since ToB is now a standard book(as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong) then would it be possible to instead ask for Complete Mage as my book of choice was ToB?

Yes to both.


This seems great. I think everything is in place now.

Awesome. These fights are gonna be killer.

Talic
2009-05-23, 06:58 PM
Yeah, I didn't go for level 1-2 villainy, because I don't see a good archvillain as a level 1-2 foe. I wanted people with the likelihood of being campaign capstones...

Not something that'll be a minion of a minion of the big bad.

While low level baddies may be memorable, they're not epic encounters.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 07:04 PM
You should see the level 20 encounter. IF thats not epic, I don't know what is!

Mwa ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!!!!!

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 07:04 PM
Well, remember that for whatever given ECL, that's for the party only. The villain is usually a good 3-5 CR higher. And might have associates.

That reminds me, Keld: I owe you the 15-16 to look at as well, don't I?


You should see the level 20 encounter. IF thats not epic, I don't know what is!

Mwa ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!!!!!

I do, because I have one above even that.

I hesitate to deploy it, though, because really, life just gets silly when players are allowed Epic.

Talic
2009-05-23, 07:08 PM
Eh, I'm more enthralled by the level 15-16. Of course, it's a playstyle difference.

Some people prefer the dagger. Others prefer the wand. Some prefer the sledgehammer.

That's why I've looked at several of the level challenges and picked the ones that suit my preferred style of play.

I plan to make it a challenge, for all my little morsels... I mean, participants.

EDIT: And I'm against the epic too. It does get silly. Really silly. Gateraped planets of Lawful Evil Solars, policing the realms, while wizards rule from on high, and all.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 07:41 PM
Eh, I'm more enthralled by the level 15-16. Of course, it's a playstyle difference.

Yeah; each adversary is kind of different in approach.


I plan to make it a challenge, for all my little morsels... I mean, participants.

Nah; you meant morsels.

Keld's opponents on 20, if they are built and played really well, might have a very slender chance. Yours at 15-16 will not. I doubt the 12-13s too. The last trial only got as far as it did thanks to factors that are not available this round.

Talic
2009-05-23, 07:45 PM
15-16? I can see weaknesses in the abilities, effects, and circumstances that make an opponent capable of victory, if not 100% likely. It's an uphill fight, though, I agree.

12-13? Beatable, but not easy.

7-9? Quite beatable, with the right skillsets.

afroakuma
2009-05-23, 07:56 PM
15-16? I can see weaknesses in the abilities, effects, and circumstances that make an opponent capable of victory, if not 100% likely. It's an uphill fight, though, I agree.

With the proper battlefield, though, it's murder.


12-13? Beatable, but not easy.

Definitely not easy.


7-9? Quite beatable, with the right skillsets.

Most assuredly, but will make for a fun battle.

Talic
2009-05-24, 01:02 AM
...But a little murder never hurt anybody, right?

And yes, I did just give players a means to select their difficulty mode. Do they prefer their villains medium rary, or do they wish to risk being made extra crispy?

But that 15-16 challenge? Only contenders need to apply. That guy is written so as to be impossible to scale down, impossible to pull a punch. If you go in there, every member of your party will be fighting for their lives. And I intend to play it accordingly.

If you fancy yourself a contender? Step right up.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 03:20 AM
Is it safe to assume that because nobody commented on my builds that they are okayed so far?

Talic
2009-05-24, 03:28 AM
Well, I'd comment, but it seems right now I'm the only DM in your bracket, which means I'm not examining that tasty spoiler of yours.

lord_khaine
2009-05-24, 03:36 AM
well, with the new rules i guess i have to rebuild my previous Psionics R Us team, but im in.


i think i would like my first challenge at lv 6, then if my team works im going to level them up gradualy, maybe even all the way up to 15 where ill then take talics challenge.

Talic
2009-05-24, 03:46 AM
well, with the new rules i guess i have to rebuild my previous Psionics R Us team, but im in.


i think i would like my first challenge at lv 6, then if my team works im going to level them up gradualy, maybe even all the way up to 15 where ill then take talics challenge.

It's ECL 15-16.

Trust me.

Go 16.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 03:49 AM
Well, I'd comment, but it seems right now I'm the only DM in your bracket, which means I'm not examining that tasty spoiler of yours.

Too bad, I'd really like to have them looked over before I start compiling the spell lists.

Talic
2009-05-24, 03:56 AM
Afro will get to it, I'm sure. I'm waiting on evaluation of my tactics for 2 of the 3 challenges I've got... Just collecting opinions, and such.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 08:39 AM
Is it safe to assume that because nobody commented on my builds that they are okayed so far?

Nah; it's cause of that disclaimer you posted.

I'll go in and look.


i think i would like my first challenge at lv 6, then if my team works im going to level them up gradualy, maybe even all the way up to 15 where ill then take talics challenge.

I'm searching around, but I don't think I have one for ECL 6. We do have 5 and 7...

I suppose you could go under the ECL 5 bracket; but the ECL 7-9 bracket would be too dangerous at ECL 6, I feel.

Oh, by the way, I am working to add new brackets: We now have a brand-new bracket at ECL 14!

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:11 AM
Alright Fenix: It looks like it will be an interesting matchup. Your team will, I think, be a decent test of the opposition in its entirety.

I'm never a fan of the cheap fighter tactics, but I don't think it will be a factor.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 09:30 AM
Wait, theres a thing called cheap fighter tactics? Enlighten me!

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 09:33 AM
I'm never a fan of the cheap fighter tactics

In that case you should allow ToB, there is very little I can think of that can be effectively done by a fighter without being "cheap". I don't mind myself, but that just happens to be the way the system works.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:37 AM
In that case you should allow ToB, there is very little I can think of that can be effectively done by a fighter without being "cheap". I don't mind myself, but that just happens to be the way the system works.

I did allow it. Check the rules.

Keld: Yeah - standard trip build and standard ubercharger build.

And hey, you didn't tell me about the tactical setup on ECL 20 yet!

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 09:46 AM
I did allow it. Check the rules.

Keld: Yeah - standard trip build and standard ubercharger build.

And hey, you didn't tell me about the tactical setup on ECL 20 yet!

I wasn't sure if you were joking or not, anyway I already had my character made by that time, so I didn't bother to check.

what about mounted charger or dungeoncrasher builds, are those cheap too?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:56 AM
what about mounted charger or dungeoncrasher builds, are those cheap too?

If it allows you to do damage in the triple-digits or make sure that your enemy never gets an actual action, then yeah, it's cheap.

Not that it matters; most of these foes are better than that and can survive those tactics.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 10:01 AM
Pshhh, tripping is only effective against a small number of foes, and requires a large number of feats and awkward stats. If a player wants to cripple their fighter to go all out on tripping, let em. If the player only spends a little bit of resources on a tactic that is only useable a small amount of the time, let em. Either way you have money in and money out. I'd be pissed if my wizard took spell focus and my DM said that school of magic no longer works.

And AA, what did you think about my proposed changes to the 16 and 20s? I have a good plan for the 20 as well, I'll write up a PM to you in a few minutes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 10:08 AM
Hmm...

AfroAkuma, can you PM me with my character's starting cash? I assume 1/2 max on single item limit? To comply with your 'only one Complete x' rule, I'm going to need to mine the MIC for toys...

However, it does free up some options. Since the beatstick can't be an ubercharger, I may just have him go Crusader...

Oh, how do you rule on purchasing NPC services (such as casting permanent spells)?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:14 AM
And AA, what did you think about my proposed changes to the 16 and 20s? I have a good plan for the 20 as well, I'll write up a PM to you in a few minutes.

Please do.


Hmm...

AfroAkuma, can you PM me with my character's starting cash?


I assume 1/2 max on single item limit?

Yup.


Oh, how do you rule on purchasing NPC services (such as casting permanent spells)?

Hmm...

I mean, it's a normal expenditure, so I'd like to say go ahead.

Watch that come back to bite me.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 10:18 AM
Please do.





Yup.



Hmm...

I mean, it's a normal expenditure, so I'd like to say go ahead.

Watch that come back to bite me.

Oh, I'm not going to totally abuse it, just grabbing a couple of handy always-on effects. Costs a pretty penny though... but can we really put a price on life?

Heh, one of them costs under 3k... the other one is quite expensive, however, due to multiple castings from a high level caster with a significant xp cost... in fact, probably not worth it for Telepathic Bond to be Permanencied for the entire party (which would require THREE castings of Permanency)

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:27 AM
Oh, I'm not going to totally abuse it, just grabbing a couple of handy always-on effects. Costs a pretty penny though... but can we really put a price on life?

Yes. :belkar:


Heh, one of them costs under 3k... the other one is quite expensive, however, due to multiple castings from a high level caster with a significant xp cost... in fact, probably not worth it for Telepathic Bond to be Permanencied for the entire party (which would require THREE castings of Permanency)

Am I permitted to know what these effects will be?

Jkoshe
2009-05-24, 10:34 AM
I'd like to play, an ECL 8 or 9. Is that alright?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:48 AM
Absolutely.

Adumbration
2009-05-24, 11:02 AM
I'd like to play an ECL 1 party. However, unlike last time, I've crafted 4 characters according to specifications, without a hunch of optimisation. I am confident that they are about the same power level as an average party.

Here they are:
Mountaineer Everest (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128236), the pick-dual-wielding fighter that does not hesitate to stab some backs.
Famous singer of battle ballads, Tolkki. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128241) Your average elven bard. Only he sings heavy music. Not kidding.
Tallulah, the interpreter of the spirit world. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128246) The spirit shaman that won't hesitate to enter combat.
Rand (definitely not Al'Thor) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128249), the blastiest blaster on this side of the mountain. Oh, and he's a dwarf.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:07 AM
Awesome. I'll write you in for it, then.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 11:07 AM
Yes. :belkar:



Am I permitted to know what these effects will be?

PM'd.

Party is going to shift up just a bit.

Main tank will be a Crusader (although he'll be blowing a feat to grab a maneuver in a cross-class school). Focus will be on lockdown and suck damage, with secondary being "Yes, I *CAN* do damage to you, no matter how much you try to avoid it".

Rogue will not change much. TWF pouncing precision-based damage dealer. Although Island of Blades will be getting traded out for the stance that gives him concealment whenever he moves. He won't need Island of Blades anymore.

Cleric will be changing flavor, but effectively the same. Healbot + Buffbot + Save or Screwed lockdown + Mr. Fix-it. Going at it from a slightly different direction, though.

Arcanist will be roughly the same.

Complete Book I am using is hereby listed as Complete Mage, however can I get permission to use the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane? Not as completely broken like Iot7V or Incantatrix, but it's a heck of a lot better than more Sorcerer...

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:10 AM
Party is going to shift up just a bit.

Main tank will be a Crusader (although he'll be blowing a feat to grab a maneuver in a cross-class school). Focus will be on lockdown and suck damage, with secondary being "Yes, I *CAN* do damage to you, no matter how much you try to avoid it".

For your sake, I hope you're right.


Rogue will not change much. TWF pouncing precision-based damage dealer. Although Island of Blades will be getting traded out for the stance that gives him concealment whenever he moves. He won't need Island of Blades anymore.

If you think that will help. :smallsmile:


Cleric will be changing flavor, but effectively the same. Healbot + Buffbot + Save or Screwed lockdown + Mr. Fix-it. Going at it from a slightly different direction, though.

Arcanist will be roughly the same.

Good enough.


Complete Book I am using is hereby listed as Complete Mage, however can I get permission to use the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane? Not as completely broken like Iot7V or Incantatrix, but it's a heck of a lot better than more Sorcerer...

Your arcanist is always entitled to CA. You get one additional book alongside; that's to be CM? Very well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 11:33 AM
For your sake, I hope you're right. Me too, but with Shards of Granite to completely bypass any and all DR or Hardness, plus some of the harder-hitting maneuvers he has access to, I'm fairly certain he can be a reliable consistent damage dealer. Of course, trying to find a way to reliably make all attacks into touch attacks is going to be fun.

Seriously, people always underestimate those tactical feats. My beatstick is human, because he needs all those feats so he can get three of them. Even then, he's struggling to get all the other feats.

Maybe a one-level dip in Sorcerer + Arcane Disciple for Wraithstrike? *ducks the barrage of dice* No, that was a joke... I've got other ways to do it, or at least, to ensure I hit.


If you think that will help. :smallsmile: Not so much thinking it will help as Island of Blades is completely outdated, with all new and exciting ways to guarantee flanking, even against things with Improved Uncanny Dodge. Therefore, in the event he finds himself in a Bad Place (tm), it's at least giving him a chance (20%) to get the hell out of there.


Your arcanist is always entitled to CA. You get one additional book alongside; that's to be CM? Very well.

Oh really? Missed that on the 'allowed' side... hmmm... *plots*

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:38 AM
Maybe a one-level dip in Sorcerer + Arcane Disciple for Wraithstrike? *ducks the barrage of dice* No, that was a joke... I've got other ways to do it, or at least, to ensure I hit.

Talic is armed with several ways to ensure that you do not. This will be very interesting.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 11:43 AM
Wait, so Shneeky, which level are you attempting? 16?

And is anyone brave enough to attempt the level 20 encounter?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:45 AM
Shneekey is going for ECL 15-16. I think he's doing ECL 16, specifically.

ZeroNumerous has volunteered to die for ECL 20.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 11:55 AM
Wait, so Shneeky, which level are you attempting? 16?

And is anyone brave enough to attempt the level 20 encounter?

Yes, I'm going for CR 16. Probably going to regret it, since my party isn't all that optimized, but hey... at least I can claim I tried.

AfroAkuma... don't worry, I won't be casting any spells (during combat) to ensure he hits. It's all pure skill, baby! Oh, and don't worry, I'll be able to effectively lock down the opponent(s)... one way or another.

By the way, did you know that Mind Blank is a domain spell for the Protection domain? And a Chain Freedom of Movement is only a 7th level spell. Same with Chain Death Ward. And a Quickened Divine Power is only an 8th level spell...

Will I be using high level spells? Probably not many. Will I be using high-level spell slot? Oh, yes...

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 11:59 AM
So...am I running Shneeky's 16? Or is Talic?

I need to pick up some good mapping software if I am. Know any good stuff?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 12:08 PM
Rules Clarification: How are Hit Points calculated? Max 1st and 1/2 HD for every level thereafter, plus con bonus on every level?

This a d6 HD on a 16th level character with a 12 con would be 7(6 + 1 from Con) + 15*3+15=67 hit points.

Is this a correct assessment?

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 12:13 PM
In at ECL 15.

Expound for a moment on the player's rules section. How many Prestige Classes are allowed? What is meant by "one of X"? Does that mean that they may not have another base class in their character? May one character fill both roles, such as a Swift Hunter?

Finally: What is considered Explicit Cheese? I've known DMs to vary greatly on this issue (One thought ToB was cheese but allows Divine Metamagic, so :/)

Is Divine Metamagic cheese? If yes, is Divine Metamagic with the limit of "The highest level spell you can cast" cheese? I can only assume that Trickery Devotion is cheese.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 12:16 PM
In at ECL 15.

Expound for a moment on the player's rules section. How many Prestige Classes are allowed? What is meant by "one of X"? Does that mean that they may not have another base class in their character? May one character fill both roles, such as a Swift Hunter?

Finally: What is considered Explicit Cheese? I've known DMs to vary greatly on this issue (One thought ToB was cheese but allows Divine Metamagic, so :/)

Is Divine Metamagic cheese? If yes, is Divine Metamagic with the limit of "The highest level spell you can cast" cheese? I can only assume that Trickery Devotion is cheese.

Ubercharging and infinite loops are cheese.

He's basically wanting to avoid situations where you have four batman wizards who rain all over the NPC's parade. As long as you've got a Beatstick, a Skillmonkey (your swift hunter would probably qualify as a skillmonkey), a Divine Caster, and an Arcane Caster, you should be good.

Talic
2009-05-24, 12:20 PM
I would like to run the first 16's. I've got a couple approved mods on the villain, and I want to test them out.

Shneeky, when you're ready, I'd like you to determine buff rounds/how many there are, and then I'll give you a bit of background (the "hook" I've decided on... after all, why are you there? At level 16? With villains? Nothing is entirely chance.)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 12:25 PM
Where are these fights run? I want to see how some of them turn out.

Im not that good at optimizing, but I'd like to DM. EL 14, since no one else has taken it :smallsmile:

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 12:28 PM
I'm just wondering if a Fighter2/Warblade 12 counts as the beatstick. Since ToB is allowed, are the Base Classes from there allowed for the beatstick?

Talic
2009-05-24, 12:29 PM
I'm almost 100% sure that a fighter 2/Warblade 14 is a beatstick. Also a 15th level initiatior, by my reckoning.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 12:33 PM
I would like to run the first 16's. I've got a couple approved mods on the villain, and I want to test them out.

Shneeky, when you're ready, I'd like you to determine buff rounds/how many there are, and then I'll give you a bit of background (the "hook" I've decided on... after all, why are you there? At level 16? With villains? Nothing is entirely chance.)

I'm still building my team, but in general, I'm looking at 3 rounds of buffing at the beginning of the day. All buffs have duration > 12 hours (in fact, over 20 hours) that are done before the party leaves their Rope Trick space.

However, this is not a hard and fast number, I will try to finish building these characters and get back to you with some real character sheet links and firm numbers.

I'm not going to have any pre-round buffing going on, although the first actions my party takes upon finding an encounter may well be buffing up, depending on what they see.

Also, how are you going to run Knowledge checks? My Cleric is Cloistered variant, so between him, the Skillmonkey, and the Arcanist, I'm going to be able to identify just about anything with a +20-25 on my check. Plus, my Cloistered Cleric also gets Lore, which is functionally identical to Bardic Knowledge.

My party isn't stupid, not if they have survived long enough to hit level 16. They want to know what they are dealing with so they have an idea on how to deal with it.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 12:33 PM
AfroAkuma... don't worry, I won't be casting any spells (during combat) to ensure he hits. It's all pure skill, baby! Oh, and don't worry, I'll be able to effectively lock down the opponent(s)... one way or another.

By the way, did you know that Mind Blank is a domain spell for the Protection domain? And a Chain Freedom of Movement is only a 7th level spell. Same with Chain Death Ward. And a Quickened Divine Power is only an 8th level spell...

Will I be using high level spells? Probably not many. Will I be using high-level spell slot? Oh, yes...

Well, whatever you think will work. :smallcool:


So...am I running Shneeky's 16? Or is Talic?

I need to pick up some good mapping software if I am. Know any good stuff?

I'd say let Talic pull this one, since he's not running the other. You can take the second trial. Fair?


Rules Clarification: How are Hit Points calculated? Max 1st and 1/2 HD for every level thereafter, plus con bonus on every level?

Go with that, sure.


Expound for a moment on the player's rules section. How many Prestige Classes are allowed?

As many as you can stack in.


What is meant by "one of X"? Does that mean that they may not have another base class in their character?

That means that their "main" base class, and more importantly their role in the party, must conform generally to that branch.


May one character fill both roles, such as a Swift Hunter?

If you happen to cover extra territory, then good on you.


Finally: What is considered Explicit Cheese? I've known DMs to vary greatly on this issue (One thought ToB was cheese but allows Divine Metamagic, so :/)

ToB is allowed. DMM follows the rule that you must have both DMM (Feat) and the metamagic feat itself. And, of course, nightsticks are not available.


Is Divine Metamagic cheese? If yes, is Divine Metamagic with the limit of "The highest level spell you can cast" cheese? I can only assume that Trickery Devotion is cheese.

If you have to ask these questions, then chances are what you're planning may stray around the border. Use your own judgment.


Where are these fights run? I want to see how some of them turn out.

They will be run in PbP here. I'm asking that players queued to the same ECL not observe.


Im not that good at optimizing, but I'd like to DM. EL 14, since no one else has taken it :smallsmile:

Very good. Added.


I'm just wondering if a Fighter2/Warblade 12 counts as the beatstick. Since ToB is allowed, are the Base Classes from there allowed for the beatstick?

If you're using it as a beatstick, then yes it does. If, for some bizarre reason, you make it a cross-class UMD'ing poor excuse for a blaster, then A) you're probably not going to do well and B) you're breaking the rules.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 12:49 PM
Allright! I could probably do something else as well if it is needed...just PM me.

Adumbration
2009-05-24, 12:49 PM
When can we expect the trials to begin?

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 12:50 PM
<emerges from a Chimera, doffs his flak armor, and puts down lasgun>

You just got a DM for the ECL 14 bracket? Sweet. I've been meaning to get a bit more active on this site anyways. I don't have anything really concrete yet, but later on today (read: about 6-8PM EST) I can put up some rough sheets for an ECL 14 party on Myth Weavers. I have a couple concepts that have been kicking around in my head anyways. Let's see what they can do against the monsters you guys made up yourselves (and pray it's not a Saturday when this goes down :smalltongue:).

Just one quick question for afroakuma: Would I be allowed to take a couple metamagic feats from Sandstorm? I'm cool if you ain't, but it goes with one of the concepts I have in mind.

-Archetype

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 12:56 PM
When can we expect the trials to begin?

I assume they will start once both a DM and a player in the same bracket are ready.
Speaking of being ready, Talic, how are you doing on the 7-9 bracket? I'm nearly done, I'm even halfway with the godforsaken wizard spell list.


It's good to see this thread grow at this thread BTW.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 12:58 PM
When can we expect the trials to begin?

As Fenix said, when both sides are ready. Adumbration, I can probably take over your fight if nobody else wants it.

Archetype-, let me know which ones; I don't see a problem generally. I'll pencil you in for the ECL 14.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 12:59 PM
<emerges from a Chimera, doffs his flak armor, and puts down lasgun>

You just got a DM for the ECL 14 bracket? Sweet. I've been meaning to get a bit more active on this site anyways. I don't have anything really concrete yet, but later on today (read: about 6-8PM EST) I can put up some rough sheets for an ECL 14 party on Myth Weavers. I have a couple concepts that have been kicking around in my head anyways. Let's see what they can do against the monsters you guys made up yourselves (and pray it's not a Saturday when this goes down :smalltongue:).

Just one quick question for afroakuma: Would I be allowed to take a couple metamagic feats from Sandstorm? I'm cool if you ain't, but it goes with one of the concepts I have in mind.

-Archetype

Good, I have a player!

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 01:03 PM
You know me, AA, I'll run anything. I'd perfer the higher ECLs, but I'm around all day regardless. Send me the victimsvolunteers!

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 01:05 PM
You know me, AA, I'll run anything. I'd perfer the higher ECLs, but I'm around all day regardless. Send me the victimsvolunteers!

Well, as soon as someone says they're ready, I'll set the stage.

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 01:06 PM
Archetype-, let me know which ones; I don't see a problem generally. I'll pencil you in for the ECL 14.


Schweet, I'll get to work on my party shortly. By-the-by, the metamagic feats are Fiery Spell and Searing Spell. I'm a little bit of a pyro in case you couldn't tell. :smallamused:

-Archetype

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-24, 01:13 PM
Just curious here, but what if one of the players wanted to spend part of his WBL on something like a griffin/griffon/gryphon, where it has rules for obtaining one as a mount? Would that be permissible?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 01:13 PM
Schweet, I'll get to work on my party shortly. By-the-by, the metamagic feats are Fiery Spell and Searing Spell. I'm a little bit of a pyro in case you couldn't tell. :smallamused:

-Archetype

Go right ahead, then.


Just curious here, but what if one of the players wanted to spend part of his WBL on something like a griffin/griffon/gryphon, where it has rules for obtaining one as a mount? Would that be permissible?

I would recommend against it; some of the encounters will take place in environments unfeasible for a mount.

Talic
2009-05-24, 01:14 PM
Races of stone has values for many pets. I believe Complete Champion/Heroes of Battle may as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 01:27 PM
And since Champions of Ruin is explicitly not on any list, Craven is not allowed. Pity... but then, to be expected. Not that I'm worried, ind you. With 9d6 sneak attacks, and ways to ensure it damn well DOES get precision-based damage applied, even if it shouldn't... yea, an extra flat 16 points per hit would have been nice, but it's more icing on the cake, really.

Talic
2009-05-24, 01:40 PM
I assume they will start once both a DM and a player in the same bracket are ready.
Speaking of being ready, Talic, how are you doing on the 7-9 bracket? I'm nearly done, I'm even halfway with the godforsaken wizard spell list.


It's good to see this thread grow at this thread BTW.

7-9 pretty much readied itself for me. Thank AA for his wonderful villain list for that.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 01:45 PM
7-9 pretty much readied itself for me. Thank AA for his wonderful villain list for that.

Aw, come on. That one wasn't all that great...

Jkoshe
2009-05-24, 01:56 PM
Okay.. here goes.

Bashy type. Knight, (PHB II)
Sneaky type. Spellthief, Complete Adventurer
Healbot, Druid, With spontaneous rejuvenations alternate class feature (PHB + PHB II)
Caster, Sorc with metamagic specialist alternate class feature. (PHB+ PHBII)

That sound alright? I'm only using three books total, so it looks like it should be alright.

EDIT: Oh PHB II isn't allowed is it. Back to the drawing board.

Talic
2009-05-24, 02:02 PM
Okay.. here goes.

Bashy type. Knight, (PHB II)
Sneaky type. Spellthief, Complete Adventurer
Healbot, Druid, With spontaneous rejuvenations alternate class feature (PHB + PHB II)
Caster, Sorc with metamagic specialist alternate class feature. (PHB+ PHBII)

That sound alright? I'm only using three books total, so it looks like it should be alright.

EDIT: Oh PHB II isn't allowed is it. Back to the drawing board.

Player rules include the following:


• The books allowed are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. The character in each role can use the Complete book from their listing.

• You may select one additional sourcebook from the following list: Complete Champion, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel; or, you may request specific material from another book.

PHB2 is "Another book"

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 02:10 PM
Let's just pause for a quick role call, here:

Who's ready, and at which level?

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 02:10 PM
EDIT:I am applying for level 15.

How about a party of a Crusader/Psychic Warrior (some iteration of that) tankbot, a Cloistered Cleric buff-healer, a wizard/IotSFV buff/BFCer, and Totemist/Scout(or possibly Umbral Disciple) as a sneak/ranged guy with Manticore Belt?

For my single expansion I think I'd like Magic of Incarnum.

Psychic Warrior will be making use of the Psycarnum Infusion/Azure Talent setup, which he will use to gain extra power points to make up for the PP he'll lose from Multiclassing. This'll only really come into play in an out of combat situation, such as if we for some reason need to fight 5 battles a day.

The Cleric will be cleric-ing it up with standard stuff like Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, and Contemplative, and I'm considering the use of the Azurin cleric sub level.

Wizard will probably be an abjurer, or a transmuter. Might change this to a Soulcaster but don't count on it.

The totemist will obviously be a totemist, and he'll get some scout in there and fly around and do cool things with Manticore belt.

So overall, I get the greatest bang/buck ratio by adding MoI. It was a tough choice between this and Comp Champion, but this won out in the end.

Well, is this kosher? Should I go back to the drawing board?

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-24, 02:22 PM
I'm almost ready for ecl 7-9 with a party consisting out of level 8 characters, if I do well I might level them up for the next bracket.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 02:43 PM
How about a party of a Crusader/Psychic Warrior (some iteration of that) tankbot, a Cloistered Cleric buff-healer, a wizard/IotSFV buff/BFCer, and Totemist/Scout(or possibly Umbral Disciple) as a sneak/ranged guy with Manticore Belt?

For my single expansion I think I'd like Magic of Incarnum.

Why do I get the impression that you're trying to push the envelope? :smallwink:


Well, is this kosher? Should I go back to the drawing board?

I'll defer to your DM on this, but I don't see anything I would swat down.

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 02:47 PM
Cool! I'll get right on rolling up the party! Sheets'll be hosted over on Myth Weavers. What forum is this all on?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 02:49 PM
Trials will be run here on the PbP board. I'll initiate each thread and announce the participants.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 02:50 PM
Well, my skillmonkey is mostly done, other than still having some cash to spend.

Pip Squeak (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=102949)

Building spell/maneuver lists for the rest of my characters. Won't be able to play today, due to work, so probably Monday evening or tuesday evening would work well for me.

8 attacks with +9d6 sneak attack is probably going to hurt something...

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 03:05 PM
Gah, it's been a while since I've made someone of this level without.... y'know, getting there the long way. I just now have the bare bones on the party beatstick, and he's ready to receive his 150k worth of stuff. <shakes head> I'll just get the bare bones on the other three and link 'em up here for preliminary approval. Apologies in advance.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-24, 03:11 PM
I'm unlikely to be ready until Wednesday, since I've got to deal with a 45-minute drive to go see my grandparents. :smallyuk:

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 03:12 PM
8 attacks with +9d6 sneak attack is probably going to hurt something...

Gotta love this kind of excess. It will not be of any use to you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 03:26 PM
Gotta love this kind of excess. It will not be of any use to you.

We will see... oh clever use of white text...

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 03:35 PM
I suppose we shall, at that. :smallcool:

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-24, 03:42 PM
Perhaps their optimization will allow them to survive another few rounds in combat with these monstrosities... Probably not, though.

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 03:44 PM
Just had a quick question, though this'll probably sound at least slightly stupid considering you already spelled it out fairly clearly here:


• You may select one additional sourcebook from the following list: Complete Champion, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel; or, you may request specific material from another book.

Does this mean that if I wanted to make use of the aforementioned feats from Sandstorm, I would be disallowed from using the other options presented above? I'm assuming the the answer is yes, but I'll wait to edit the bare bones until I get confirmation.

-Archetype

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 04:02 PM
That's a yes. If you pick an alternate book, you can't use any other additional source.

To summarize:

• PHB, DMG, MM, MiC, SC, ToB, UA, XPH
• CW for beatstick, CAdv for skillmonkey, CD for divine and CArc for arcane (some few things from these books can slide between roles, Mage Slayer for instance)
• One additional source

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 04:11 PM
Thanks, and again I apologize. Now I need to go answer to a little conundrum that I just ran into thanks to my apparent lack of reading comprehension... Do I really want to give up a book full of awesome feats and PrCs just so I can satisfy my pyromaniacal urges? :smalltongue:

I should have some bare bones later on tonight. Magic items and more specifics should be up at some point tomorrow afternoon or evening (Monday).

-Archetype

lord_khaine
2009-05-24, 04:32 PM
I'm searching around, but I don't think I have one for ECL 6. We do have 5 and 7...

I suppose you could go under the ECL 5 bracket; but the ECL 7-9 bracket would be too dangerous at ECL 6, I feel.

Oh, by the way, I am working to add new brackets: We now have a brand-new bracket at ECL 14!


in that case ill start my team at level 5.

im planning a Psychic warrior, a psion, a cleric and a Rogue/swordsage.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-24, 04:37 PM
ZeroNumerous has volunteered to die for ECL 20.

Huh? I was building level 13s.. Too late to change my bracket or should I scrap what(admittedly little due a damned touchpad!) work I've done and start over?

EDIT: Though I suppose I'll have to redo my skillmonkey since it's almost a copy of Pip(sans utilizing Thri-keen instead, merely 5d6 sneak but it still gives 8 attacks well before I should even have 3).

Siosilvar
2009-05-24, 04:58 PM
Question from the 5 bracket DM: Terrain is determined by the DM, right? So basically, anything goes?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 05:20 PM
Huh? I was building level 13s.. Too late to change my bracket or should I scrap what(admittedly little due a damned touchpad!) work I've done and start over?

No, you're good. You signed up under both, after all.


Question from the 5 bracket DM: Terrain is determined by the DM, right? So basically, anything goes?

Reasonably, yes. The ECL 5 bracket shouldn't be encountering planar rifts and the like, but generally you rule the roost.

As I said, this exercise is far more tactical.

Jkoshe
2009-05-24, 05:31 PM
So could I use PHB II.
I plan to use it for
Knight
Alternate druid and sorc class features.
and a number of feats.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 05:34 PM
Go right ahead.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 05:41 PM
So...no one wants to try the level 20 encounter?

/sadface

Talic
2009-05-24, 05:45 PM
Already seen the encounter, sorry.

I can't wait for the first 16 though, it's gonna be some face breakin' good times.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 05:49 PM
So...no one wants to try the level 20 encounter?

/sadface

Oh, don't worry, Keld... we'll get there eventually.

Eldariel
2009-05-24, 05:51 PM
I might try the 20 once I've gotten the party done (it's not too big of a job to level them up 5 levels), but I'm already committed to the 15 and as making a party is a lot of work and I don't have that much free time, I'm gonna go for one first (allows me to gauge for any obvious holes in the party too).

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 05:54 PM
Any projections on when you might be ready, Eldariel?

I want to see every one of them, really. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-05-24, 06:03 PM
Any projections on when you might be ready, Eldariel?

I want to see every one of them, really. :smallbiggrin:

I'm still mulling around the exact Psy War-build I want (I sorta want a Claw-based one, but that kinda falls flat on its face if faced by anti-magic abilities, and on the other hand, I sorta want a Spiked Chain-build but that fails to make use of some of the better Psy War powers) and the logistics of my Druid's animal companion (because while the rest of the party probably rides on Phantom Steeds, the animal companion is like to be somewhat uncomfortable riding an illusion).

Oh, and which way to use to teach my Rogue to Hide in Plain Sight; sorta want it to be Ex so he can make use of AMFs when need be, but Ex HiPS tends to be quite limited and hard to acquire. Once I've come to the conclusions on those matters, it's just a matter of throwing everything together and I'll be effectively finished.


Of course, I am doing some self-regulation; even though they aren't specifically banned, I'm not going to be using Polymorph/Metamorphosis/the like. I am, however, probably going to have used a single casting of Planar Binding to acquire some extra muscle (basically, hire a demon to act as a bodyguard; thanks to Moment of Prescience, the Cha check is a foregone conclusion). On these levels, I could get a Pit Fiend, but I'll probably go for something tamer; adding a CR 20 creature to the party seems against the spirit of this endeavour.

Talic
2009-05-24, 06:11 PM
Oh, and which way to use to teach my Rogue to Hide in Plain Sight; sorta want it to be Ex so he can make use of AMFs when need be, but Ex HiPS tends to be quite limited and hard to acquire. Once I've come to the conclusions on those matters, it's just a matter of throwing everything together and I'll be effectively finished.

Unearthed Arcana. Wilderness Rogue Variant. Available with 13 levels in Rogue.

That's the only Ex: HiPS I know of.

Eldariel
2009-05-24, 06:14 PM
Unearthed Arcana. Wilderness Rogue Variant. Available with 13 levels in Rogue.

That's the only Ex: HiPS I know of.

Hmm, Rangers get it too as do Scouts. Also, thanks; I will take a look. In fact, I just did and it looks promising; none of the skills are too valuable to lose (Diplomacy and Gather Information hurt, but Druids have Diplomacy) and the added abilities are handy.

Talic
2009-05-24, 06:22 PM
Hmm, Rangers get it too as do Scouts. Also, thanks; I will take a look. In fact, I just did and it looks promising; none of the skills are too valuable to lose (Diplomacy and Gather Information hurt, but Druids have Diplomacy) and the added abilities are handy.

Rangers do get it. In fact, that's where Wilderness rogue gets it from. Rogues just get it faster. Go figure.

The response was mostly tailored towards your comment on needing it for a rogue.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 06:24 PM
I'm still mulling around the exact Psy War-build I want (I sorta want a Claw-based one, but that kinda falls flat on its face if faced by anti-magic abilities, and on the other hand, I sorta want a Spiked Chain-build but that fails to make use of some of the better Psy War powers) and the logistics of my Druid's animal companion (because while the rest of the party probably rides on Phantom Steeds, the animal companion is like to be somewhat uncomfortable riding an illusion).

I'd say Claw, since everyone seems to be going the spiked chain route. :smalltongue:


Of course, I am doing some self-regulation; even though they aren't specifically banned, I'm not going to be using Polymorph/Metamorphosis/the like. I am, however, probably going to have used a single casting of Planar Binding to acquire some extra muscle (basically, hire a demon to act as a bodyguard; thanks to Moment of Prescience, the Cha check is a foregone conclusion). On these levels, I could get a Pit Fiend, but I'll probably go for something tamer; adding a CR 20 creature to the party seems against the spirit of this endeavour.

I should point out that planar binding is specifically banned... the rules stipulate that you can't bring in any ally that isn't explicitly a class feature.

Eldariel
2009-05-24, 06:26 PM
I should point out that planar binding is specifically banned... the rules stipulate that you can't bring in any ally that isn't explicitly a class feature.

Good that you pointed out now. Somehow I had skimped over that; was the rule there initially? Does save me the headache of worrying about all the stupid associated details too.

By the way, now that I think about it, what's your take on crafting and XP costs? Since this is a broad range of "15-16", I was thinking of building a party of 15, but with XP spent on a number of stuff (mostly a few casting of Permanency on Rary's Telepathic Bond and Arcane Sight and Detect Magic, and crafted Wondrous Items), but I just noticed the rules state "you must have exactly the XP needed for a level with no extraneous XP".

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 06:33 PM
Good that you pointed out now. Somehow I had skimped over that; was the rule there initially? Does save me the headache of worrying about all the stupid associated details too.

It wasn't; I added it in when I was reminded of Leadership, since it was one of the rules from the first go 'round.


By the way, now that I think about it, what's your take on crafting and XP costs? Since this is a broad range of "15-16", I was thinking of building a party of 15, but with XP spent on a number of stuff (mostly a few casting of Permanency on Rary's Telepathic Bond and Arcane Sight and Detect Magic, and crafted Wondrous Items), but I just noticed the rules state "you must have exactly the XP needed for a level with no extraneous XP".

I would prefer that you purchase necessary castings, but if you must, I would say that you can take no more than half the XP you would have from getting to the next level, which must also be within the bracket. So, for example, if you are at ECL 15 and want to have "spending XP," you must be in a bracket that includes ECL 16 (you are) and your character will have only 7500 (15000/2) XP to spend.

Talic
2009-05-24, 06:48 PM
On a side note, permanency, with its XP cost, is generally beyond the range for standard purchases, by the SRD. If you authorized costs above 3000g for spellcasting services, or explicitly allowed permanency, it'd make it more clear for that.

Note: You'll probably get more out of ECL 16 and puchasing, as the wealth disparity between level 15 and 16 is 60,000gp per character, which is a whopping 240,000g for the party.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 08:06 PM
Allright, I think I am ready. Archtype-, prepare to be completely and utterly destroyed :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 08:08 PM
Well, it's quite clear to me that we're not short on eager, cunning DMs!

The tactical outlays I've seen so far are excellent; these guys have adapted to their resources like classic experts.

The fights are gonna rock. :smallbiggrin:

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 08:15 PM
<emerges from an Imperial Command tent accompanied by several servo-skulls, a scribe, and a Commissar behind him, the latter of the group holstering a bolt pistol>

OK, I demand rejoicing! :smallcool: Why? Finally got the friggin' bare bones done for the party! Without further ado or delay, here they are. Provided everything is in order, all they need is equipment and items. It's pretty easy to tell I kept these guys pretty damn simple.

Barakai Tankred (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=101417) - The party beatstick and adopted son of Duke Amadeus Tankred.

Nigel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128295) – The party's arcanist/mobile artillery piece.

Seamus Tankred (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128350) – The party's healbot/divine caster/”spiritual “ advisor, brother to Barakai.

Xanaphia Siannodel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128338) – The party's skillmonkey/sniper, far removed from her native forest yet oddly not out of place.

I'll take care of equipment and magic items tomorrow. Four characters with 150k gold to spend is a little too much for me for tonight, especially considering I have work tomorrow morning bright and early. The joys of working seven days a week, eh?

Anywho, there they are for preliminary approval.

-Archetype


Allright, I think I am ready. Archtype-, prepare to be completely and utterly destroyed :smallbiggrin:

Odd, that sounds like the first few games I expect to play with my Imperial Guard. :smallamused:

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 08:31 PM
Looks fine to me.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 08:52 PM
Allright, they look decent so far. Of course, that won't save them...:smallamused:

When do you think you will have the items finished tommorow?

Talic
2009-05-24, 08:55 PM
As I haven't SEEN the cr 14, I may make a player entry on that... ;)

EDIT: May

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 08:58 PM
The ECL 14 is great. Doesn't lay a finger on the ECL 15-16 or the ECL 20, but...

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-24, 09:04 PM
I think Duke Tankred's about to be very sad. :smalltongue:

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 09:10 PM
Most likely sometime tomorrow afternoon, about 4-5PM Eastern Standard Time (GMT +5). This is one of the few weekday afternoons I'll be getting off, so I'll be able to start on the lengthy equipping process not long after I get out of work and devour a few dozen souls and a sammich. 'Twill be the D&D shopping trip of a lifetime for me, 'cuz I ain't ne'er spent 600k on four PCs afore now.

Funny side notes. I completely forgot Favored Soul doesn't have Knowledge (religion) until I made Seamus Tankred just now. Having Pandora Radio in another tab did wonders for making the character generating process less dull.

Looking forward to this thing. Can't wait to have at it with flames, steel, faith, and arrows! For the God-Emperor!!! <clears throat and looks around to see several people staring at him standing atop a large metal box that Archetype- confused for a tank>

...Right. Saving my zeal for now. :smalltongue:


I think Duke Tankred's about to be very sad. :smalltongue:

And/or very pissed off and leading half a damn army to make sure the SOBs pay for what they did to his sons. Either way ye see it, it's a sad end to House Tankred.

-Archetype

Talic
2009-05-24, 09:16 PM
Oh, they can't die! The sons of Tankred must emerge victorious... Else, how will they reach ECL 16?

How will they reach me?

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:17 PM
I think Duke Tankred's about to be very sad. :smalltongue:

Talic, I happen to know what the children of Duke Tankred will be facing.

Chances are, he won't have time to be sad because it'll eat him next. :smallwink:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 09:31 PM
Actually, I doubt they will even see what they are facing before they are utterly and completely destroyed :smallbiggrin:

Talic: More the merrier! More amusement!

Archype-: Only HALF an army? ...actually, that would be pretty funny to watch...you know what I mean afroakuma :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:32 PM
'Course I do.

But the, you should see the toy Talic is piloting.

Or the one Keld has, for that matter.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 09:35 PM
I cant wait.

Can you post the links on this thread so the rest of us can enjoy them as well? TPKs are fun to watch :smallbiggrin:

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 09:39 PM
Archype-: Only HALF an army? ...actually, that would be pretty funny to watch...you know what I mean afroakuma :smallbiggrin:

Of course. The good Duchess Tankred isn't about to let her husband leave their little bit of the kingdom completely defenseless while he goes on his little suicide mission to parts unknown. :smalltongue:


Oh, they can't die! The sons of Tankred must emerge victorious... Else, how will they reach ECL 16?

How will they reach me?

What, you afraid to face the "and company" part of the team? Figures that the paladin and favored soul get all the h8er-ade from Mr. Big Bad Ugly Dude.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 09:50 PM
I cant wait.

Can you post the links on this thread so the rest of us can enjoy them as well? TPKs are fun to watch :smallbiggrin:

When they start running, I'll post the links here.

Again, the only proviso is that players in queue for a particular ECL are asked not to look at prior trials of their matchup.

I suppose a secondary one is that players not go looking for the stats on their opposition.


What, you afraid to face the "and company" part of the team? Figures that the paladin and favored soul get all the h8er-ade from Mr. Big Bad Ugly Dude.

It's not gonna pick and choose. That encounter will eat them all and call the ones in tin cans "crunchy."

Talic
2009-05-24, 09:54 PM
What, you afraid to face the "and company" part of the team? Figures that the paladin and favored soul get all the h8er-ade from Mr. Big Bad Ugly Dude.

What's the term that was used?

"The more, the merrier," was it?

Please. I enjoy the sound of screaming in surround sound.

EDIT: And I recommend listing the ECL of each challenge in the link, so that people know.

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 10:07 PM
Here's a link to the first member of the party, the Psychic Warrior/Crusader. He's a half giant who focuses on grapple, mostly. He's got a secondary claw focus, and he can also cover the Lockdown build with Claws of the Beast, 15 foot reach, and Standstill. He also can tank extremely well between Biofeedback, Share Pain, and Vigor. I originally planned for going to Crusader4, but I decided to stick to just 2 levels, which is all I really need.

Doctor Bones (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128292)

Now, for the next entry, I'll be drawing up the skeleton of our Totemist sneak. He'll be a Totemist/barbarian/scout, with the sub level, and Whirling Frenzy. Barbarian's mainly a dip, and scout's in there for Skirmish. Hopefully I can squeeze in Improved Skirmish. I may splash a bit of both Totem Rager and Umbral Disciple. Actually probably a lot of totem rager, since I'm multiclassing anyhow.

Archetype-
2009-05-24, 10:09 PM
What's the term that was used?

"The more, the merrier," was it?

Of course, 'cause no meal is complete without a healthy portion of Vitamin A and some fiber to keep regular.

"Sorceror-Os: Part of a monster's balanced breakfast. A prize in every robe!"

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:11 PM
Looks good; he'll need a party to contribute to, definitely, though; otherwise, he's toast.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 10:11 PM
Wait, you are doing 14th as well? AWESOME! Two, possibly 3 battles slaughters massacres TPKs? Horray!

Nice build, BTW :smallsmile: Won't stand a chance, but, still, might live long enough to scream.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:17 PM
Nice build, BTW :smallsmile: Won't stand a chance, but, still, might live long enough to scream.

I suppose we should give them some credit... tactics and synchrony introduce the potential to win the battle handily. Just not that guy. "Bones" is right.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 10:20 PM
Well, I don't think anyone in my party is going to have a Fort save under 25... will saves are largely irrelevant, as are Reflex saves. Starting to really shape up.

Cleric is going Cloistered and using the Spontaneous Divine variant from SRD (from UA). Got a lot of fun toys for him to play with, too. Including the obligatory Bead of Karma for daily buffages.

Ironically, my arcane caster is the least 'uber' of them all. Just a humble Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order. I'm not using any Iot7V cheeze, not using Incantatrix cheeze... not a really cheezy guy.

And, of course, Pip Squeak, the skillmonkey, does more than simply dish out obscene sneak attack numbers. He's also got select Orb Of wands to lay down elemental-based damage if his weapons prove ineffective. Which he can still sneak attack with. In addition to Pouncing Strike, he's also got stupidly high levels of Tumble to make his way through combat.

Bob is your typical Fighter2/Crusader14. He's got a spiked chain. He's got combat reflexes. But he's also got things like Thicket of Blades and blew a feat on Sapphire Nightmare Blade so he could make touch attacks to hit with, if necessary. I'll want to get in touch with the GM to handle how we do his... unique... maneuver refreshing technique.

Oh yea, Bob also has ways of bypassing all DR and Hardness as well as flat declaring opponents flanked (even if normally unable to be flanked) for Pip to take advantage of.

I've got the cleric's spell list done, now that I'm home from work. Starting on the arcane caster's, then on Bob's maneuver list. From there, it's a simple matter of spending my cash, and then I'll be ready. However, as my brother is active duty military and (finally) state-side, I'll be spending most of tomorrow with him, so probably not going to do this until either tomorrow evening or tuesday some time.

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 10:43 PM
Actually I'm doing ECL 15, and Half-Giant has a level adjustment. I think it was worth it for Powerful build and a +4 on grapple checks. Although I've been wrong before.

EDIT: And for that totemist, it's shaping up as Barbarian1/Scout3/Totemist2/ Totem Rager 9. Loses a few skillpoints, but reduces the need for Int and Wisdom with skill boosting soulmelds. Also has cool points with extreme skirmish. In this instance, the Indigo Strike feat will be a good friend of mine, because I have Totem Rage. Other than that, this build has good spot checks, sneaking, trapfinding, and pretty good ranged support.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:43 PM
Well, I don't think anyone in my party is going to have a Fort save under 25... will saves are largely irrelevant, as are Reflex saves. Starting to really shape up.

Stacked saves, eh? We'll see how that pans out for ya.

(I learned from last time, you see.)


Cleric is going Cloistered and using the Spontaneous Divine variant from SRD (from UA). Got a lot of fun toys for him to play with, too. Including the obligatory Bead of Karma for daily buffages.

Can someone tell me why all clerics seem to go Cloistered these days? Is there something I'm missing about it?


And, of course, Pip Squeak, the skillmonkey, does more than simply dish out obscene sneak attack numbers. He's also got select Orb Of wands to lay down elemental-based damage if his weapons prove ineffective. Which he can still sneak attack with. In addition to Pouncing Strike, he's also got stupidly high levels of Tumble to make his way through combat.

Flexibility is nice, but I can assure you that obscenities are prohibited on the battlefield. :smallwink:


Bob is your typical Fighter2/Crusader14. He's got a spiked chain. He's got combat reflexes. But he's also got things like Thicket of Blades and blew a feat on Sapphire Nightmare Blade so he could make touch attacks to hit with, if necessary. I'll want to get in touch with the GM to handle how we do his... unique... maneuver refreshing technique.

Oh yea, Bob also has ways of bypassing all DR and Hardness as well as flat declaring opponents flanked (even if normally unable to be flanked) for Pip to take advantage of.

Yeah, yeah, optimized to near-cheesy levels, yada yada. He'll taste pointy. :smallbiggrin:


I've got the cleric's spell list done, now that I'm home from work. Starting on the arcane caster's, then on Bob's maneuver list. From there, it's a simple matter of spending my cash, and then I'll be ready. However, as my brother is active duty military and (finally) state-side, I'll be spending most of tomorrow with him, so probably not going to do this until either tomorrow evening or tuesday some time.

That's only fair.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 10:43 PM
I suppose we should give them some credit... tactics and synchrony introduce the potential to win the battle handily.

Yeah, the tactics are good enough that...wait...who are you talking about? It or them? :smallwink:

Truly, though, with really optimized builds and extremely good tactics, you might have a chance to survive.

And by chance, I mean the likelyhood of my Drizzit build hitting my Artemis Enteri build and visa versa. As in, once every hundred million years.

EDIT: Oops, nevermind :smallredface:, I assumed you bought the LA off.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 10:56 PM
Yeah, the tactics are good enough that...wait...who are you talking about? It or them? :smallwink:

Them. You already know how good your tactics are.

As I said, Talic and Keld just have nastier toys to play with. :belkar:


Truly, though, with really optimized builds and extremely good tactics, you might have a chance to survive.

I'd say. It's definitely possible to semi-cheese one's way over... any of them but the ECL 20.

Ernir
2009-05-24, 10:56 PM
I have been working on the 9-10th level party (the one that I seem to have the least competition for in the player department), but I have yet to pick the "extra" book. And now I need some answers regarding what is and is not filthy stinking cheese. :smallfrown:

Regardless of what book I choose, these might come up, depending on how gouda-smelling they are.
Wraithstrike (SpC) Alter Self If any different from Alter Self, Polymorph Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Ur-Priest Prayer Beads

And then there are three books I have in mind, each with their potential cheeses.

The Book of Exalted Deeds
Touch of Golden Ice Righteous Wrath as a way around Frenzied Berserker limitations


Player's Handbook II
Arcane Thesis Celerity/Greater Celerity Abrupt Jaunt

Races of Stone
Shadowcraft Mage (PrC) Earth Spell, as it relates to the Shadowcraft Mage The Goliath race

If the answers are on the negative side I'll just go with CScoundrel for skill tricks or CMage for... Master Specialist and Metamagic School Focus, I suppose.
If they are not, yay! :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-24, 10:57 PM
Stacked saves, eh? We'll see how that pans out for ya.

(I learned from last time, you see.) Last time wasn't about stacked saves, it was about me dishing out more damage in one round than both your critters combined had.


Can someone tell me why all clerics seem to go Cloistered these days? Is there something I'm missing about it? It's like Cleric... only with more spells and skills free. In exchange for worthless stuff.


Flexibility is nice, but I can assure you that obscenities are prohibited on the battlefield. :smallwink: Oh really? This sounds... interesting.


Yeah, yeah, optimized to near-cheesy levels, yada yada. He'll taste pointy. :smallbiggrin: Nah, not nearly as optimized as all that. If he was that, then he'd be RKV...


That's only fair.Yea, they're shipping him to Iraq next... he's already served one tour there, and one in Afghanastan.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-24, 11:05 PM
Can someone tell me why all clerics seem to go Cloistered these days? Is there something I'm missing about it?#1: A Cloistered cleric gets more skill points and class skills, and his spell list gets boosted. This is something clerics can use.

#2: The poor Base Attack Bonus is easily mitigated by Divine Power, or even some of the lesser buffs.

#3: Getting the Knowledge Domain for free isn't too bad.

#4: Heavy armor proficiency is for jerks. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:07 PM
I have been working on the 9-10th level party, but I have yet to pick the "extra" book. And now I need some answers regarding what is and is not filthy stinking cheese. :smallfrown:

As I said to woodenbandman, the general rule of thumb is that if you have to ask...


Regardless of what book I choose, these might come up, depending on how gouda-smelling they are.
Wraithstrike (SpC) Alter Self If any different from Alter Self, Polymorph Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Ur-Priest Prayer Beads

And then there are three books I have in mind, each with their potential cheeses.

The beads might get sketchy, but I'll let it slide for the moment.

Alter Self and Polymorph aren't as open to abuse as one might hope (they are still fairly abusable, but remember that you only get the MMI)

IotSV and Ur-Priest... Not overly worried, as long as you're not planning some scheme to seriously abuse them.


Righteous Wrath as a way around Frenzied Berserker limitations

What is in bold is a general no-no. That's how cheese gets started. Tread carefully; your DM has ways to make things worse if he sees shenanigans.


Arcane Thesis

Cannot reduce spell level below set spell level.


Celerity/Greater Celerity

Are very bad, but some of the enemies have them.


Abrupt Jaunt

Is the primary reason PHB2 is not on the list of common resources.



Shadowcraft Mage

No.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:12 PM
Last time wasn't about stacked saves, it was about me dishing out more damage in one round than both your critters combined had.

Oh, 3.X; so utterly abusable.

If we do this again, I'm optimizing my side, and then we'll see who dishes out damage.

Nah; I was referring to the trials overall. They taught me a valuable lesson about the true worth of save-and-suck-anyway effects.


It's like Cleric... only with more spells and skills free. In exchange for worthless stuff.

Tsk. Silly WotC.


Oh really? This sounds... interesting.

It's a thinly veiled way of saying your rogue is going to be used to paint the walls an amusing color.


Yea, they're shipping him to Iraq next... he's already served one tour there, and one in Afghanastan.

Hope he gets a decent period of leave.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-24, 11:17 PM
#1: A Cloistered cleric gets more skill points and class skills, and his spell list gets boosted. This is something clerics can use.

Are the skill points really worth that important if you dont want to be a Skill/Knowledge monkey? The spells are also of almost neligible value (infact I totally forgot about them, and I made a CC about 20 minutes ago for a challenge type thing)


#2: The poor Base Attack Bonus is easily mitigated by Divine Power, or even some of the lesser buffs.

Yeah, thats true...


#3: Getting the Knowledge Domain for free isn't too bad.

Better yet, trade it for free Knowledge Devotion to make use of your "6 new skill points! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002)"


#4: Heavy armor proficiency is for jerks. :smalltongue:

I actually like HAP...full plate looks cool, if drawn correctly :smallwink:

#5. You get Lore, helping you be even more of a Knowledge monkey.


Plus, besides all of this, it is more inline with the "preist" concept. Normal Medivial preists did not wear heavy metal armor, were the most knowledgeable people around, and were not the best fighters.

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 11:21 PM
Oops, slight hiccup in my build, I can't actually take 9 levels of Totem Rager as I try to enter the class. I'll be dropping 2 scout levels for 2 other levels. the skirmish isn't really necessary, but it does practically triple my damage over not using it. So the new build goes Scout1/Totemist3/Barbarian2/Totem Rager 9.

Ernir
2009-05-24, 11:35 PM
The beads might get sketchy, but I'll let it slide for the moment.

Alter Self and Polymorph aren't as open to abuse as one might hope (they are still fairly abusable, but remember that you only get the MMI)

IotSV and Ur-Priest... Not overly worried, as long as you're not planning some scheme to seriously abuse them.

OK, this is what I was really hoping to hear. Those are the ones in the common books I see people slap the "BROKEN" stamp on most often.


What is in bold is a general no-no. That's how cheese gets started. Tread carefully; your DM has ways to make things worse if he sees shenanigans.

Cannot reduce spell level below set spell level.

Are very bad, but some of the enemies have them.

Is the primary reason PHB2 is not on the list of common resources.

No.

OK, I know a bit better how to behave now. :smallbiggrin:

Not like getting into an arms race with the DM is likely to help me. :smalleek:


As I said to woodenbandman, the general rule of thumb is that if you have to ask...
Yes, I saw that. :smallredface:

It's just that I knew I was going to be surprised somewhere on that list. For example, I know that as a DM, I would in general be a lot more worried about someone with Wraithstrike than the poor little Shadowcraft Mage (right up to the point where someone decides he can cast Miracle from the cantrip slots, anyway...).

Thanks for clarifying.

afroakuma
2009-05-24, 11:35 PM
Just to confirm, woodenbandman.... this isn't your hitting-people guy, right?


It's just that I knew I was going to be surprised somewhere on that list. For example, I know that as a DM, I would in general be a lot more worried about someone with Wraithstrike than the poor little Shadowcraft Mage (right up to the point where someone decides he can cast Miracle from the cantrip slots, anyway...).

Thanks for clarifying.

Normally, as a DM, I would be worried about wraithstrike. However, I know what you'll be facing. People have been exploiting Shadowcraft Mage for far, far too long. If I want it allowed, I'll bring in the villain that uses it.

Yeah, I have one. :smallamused: And it's a funny one.

Talic
2009-05-25, 12:40 AM
To be honest, I'm more concerned with IotSV than I am with Shadowcraft mage, but they have to choose what they do. Either they use the figment as a figment, or they use it as a listed spell of evocation, conjuration creation, or conjuration summoning. Even with Earth Power, they won't get shadowcrafter or Incantatrix.

IotSV, however, creates more-or-less unassailable fortresses to give 4 free Out of Jail free cards. Without drawbacks.

Also, bear in mind, the system shores up the LA system, or at least tries to. It's still reasonably difficult to gain epic spells at ECL 16.

It's simple at CR 17. The CR system is much more abusable than the LA system. This is no secret. Afro has stayed away from the major exploits in his characters (Non-associated class levels and you: Or, how to give a creature 17 class levels for 8 CR). He's not chosen creatures that can only be hit on a 20 while flat footed, on a touch attack. He's not made ones that have saves so high that only a 1 will fail, and not always then. He's not given them ridiculous SR.

They may have one or two novel abilities, a new spell, a custom item, or some extra gold. They are designed well, and they are designed to test the very limits of a well-designed party. If I lose, I'll take it in stride.

But the common cheese builds? Guys, show some creativity. If I see a 1d2 pixie or a Hulking Hurler that throws for 5500 damage? You'll see the methods that AA was referring to.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-25, 01:17 AM
To be honest, I'm more concerned with IotSV than I am with Shadowcraft mage, but they have to choose what they do. Either they use the figment as a figment, or they use it as a listed spell of evocation, conjuration creation, or conjuration summoning. Even with Earth Power, they won't get shadowcrafter or Incantatrix.

IotSV, however, creates more-or-less unassailable fortresses to give 4 free Out of Jail free cards. Without drawbacks.

Also, bear in mind, the system shores up the LA system, or at least tries to. It's still reasonably difficult to gain epic spells at ECL 16.

It's simple at CR 17. The CR system is much more abusable than the LA system. This is no secret. Afro has stayed away from the major exploits in his characters (Non-associated class levels and you: Or, how to give a creature 17 class levels for 8 CR). He's not chosen creatures that can only be hit on a 20 while flat footed, on a touch attack. He's not made ones that have saves so high that only a 1 will fail, and not always then. He's not given them ridiculous SR.

They may have one or two novel abilities, a new spell, a custom item, or some extra gold. They are designed well, and they are designed to test the very limits of a well-designed party. If I lose, I'll take it in stride.

But the common cheese builds? Guys, show some creativity. If I see a 1d2 pixie or a Hulking Hurler that throws for 5500 damage? You'll see the methods that AA was referring to.

Hey, I'm only loosely basing my builds on classic cheeze, and even then I'm going a different direction with it.

Take, for example, my meat shield. Sure, he can trip. Combat reflexes. Thicket of Blades. But really, he's got a lot of other uses too, and an interesting take on party synergy. I wish I could fit in the feats to get the Devoted Spirit tactical feat, it would help the party members survive much easier, but alas, it was either that, or at least make an attempt to keep opponents away from them in the first place. Still, Clarion Call to declare opponents flat-footed so the skillmonkey can eat them alive is a fun combo.

Or my Cleric. Granted, he uses DMM. But he uses DMM: Chain Spell. He doesn't Persist anything at all. He just buffs up the party a bit more efficiently. Heck, he uses up most of his turn attempts in the morning every day, so he can't even use it in combat. Granted, he can still simply cast No buttons chained to the whole party, but he's still having to spend the higher level slot. In short, he's not an "I R TEH UBAR" character. He is a force multiplier, making all characters in the party more effective. In short, he's a party player, which is what I thought you were wanting.

Skillmonkey was more of an exercise of 'can I really get this to work', and really the ONLY form of serious single-round damage output that I've got. Sure, the meat shield can just about promise that he can do some damage to the target in any given round, but he doesn't really have a "KILL THIS NAO!!!" button like this guy does.

The Sorcerer I deliberately avoided well-known cheese like Iot7V or Incantatrix. This could have been the most broken of all the characters, and he's actually lagging behind. Granted, he's got some fun combos as well (distract opponent being a fun one for the skillmonkey to play with) and some of the more traditional combos (quicken true strike + empowered enervation) with Assay Spell Resistance to make sure his spells are darn well going to land (those that don't ignore SR entirely). But I not only passed up Contingency and Force Cage, but also declined Greater Shadow Evocation.

So yea, not really common cheese builds here, although they may resemble them somewhat.

While Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Forcecage is a great way to eliminate components, it also somewhat lacks in finesse. Greater Prying Eyes, on the other hand, makes sure that I'm not going to get fooled. And with Telepathic Bond on the whole party, no one else is either.

The party is defense-minded. They've survived to reach level 16, after all. And I think you may be a bit surprised at how well they can evacuate as well. You might be able to TPK me, although it won't be easy. Far more likely, you'll get me to hit the 'OH BOOP' button and bail out. Still counts as a win on your part, but rather more realistic, in my opinion.

Talic
2009-05-25, 01:38 AM
See, all that's solid, and reasonable, in my opinion. I don't think you should stray from being effective.

Just cheesy.

Your group is built to work together, to survive. You have an established protector, a buff/heal character, a skillmonkey with a Ph.D. in striking, and an arcane caster/support/blaster/fill in gaps. That's solid.

My comments aren't directed at anyone in particular. They're just layin the cards on the table, and putting things in perspective for some of the more starry-eyed CharOppers.

wykydtron
2009-05-25, 01:46 AM
I was wondering if any of the lower level slots were still open? I noticed most of the higher level ones were taken.

Talic
2009-05-25, 01:47 AM
Don't let that stop you. There's more than one slot for each level

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 01:55 AM
Yes! We have plenty of DMs waiting for you to test your might! Come come come, try out the level 20 encounter! It'll leave a lasting impression (about a mile wide)!

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 01:56 AM
I've spent most of today away from my books due to portable hard-drive issues and have gotten what amounts to 0 work done. It was nice.

However, I do have at very least level distributions for my 13s. Either way, after a bit of discussion I've decided to request Dungeonscape instead. I'd be dropping off Complete Mage and instead picking up Factotum in particular to replace my SS/Rogue.

Human Cleric 8/Crusader 1/RKV 4. End Result: Crusader IL of 9, Cleric SL of 11. Makes up for low BAB with spells. More or less traditional 'Zillafication.

Human Factotum 4/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 3. End Result: My "I deal damage" guy. He just happens to deal damage with, you know, coins and things. Failing that, daggers. Factotum for skills, trapfinding, and Intelligence to things.

Human Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 6. End Result: Cleric SL of 13. DMM(Quicken) or (Chain) will probably come in handy. Basic buff/healbot.

And on the final guy, I wanted to do something interesting and a little weird. Specifically:

Human Warmage 5/Wild Mage 7. End Result: Lots of metamagic and Practiced Spellcaster would be utilized to mitigate the penalty of Wild Magic. Strange, but a blaster caster to the core.

Full sheets to come later.

Talic
2009-05-25, 02:04 AM
My knee starts twitching when I see, in the same post, RKV, Factotum, and Wild Mage/Practiced manifester.

I'll leave it up to AA whether the Wild roll applies first, or the manifester bonus applies first.

wykydtron
2009-05-25, 02:19 AM
Yes! We have plenty of DMs waiting for you to test your might! Come come come, try out the level 20 encounter! It'll leave a lasting impression (about a mile wide)!

Well, I have to say I've never gotten any character past level 2 and I have no idea where to begin making 4 20th level characters. But I'll take whatevers left. :smallsmile:

sofawall
2009-05-25, 02:22 AM
I seem to recall UA being allowed.

I also have not noticed anything banning Gestalt.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 02:29 AM
Let's just pause for a quick role call, here:

Who's ready, and at which level?

I'm ready, at 1st level, whenever a DM is available.

Talic
2009-05-25, 02:29 AM
If AA doesn't ban gestalt, I'll ask you...

How many templates/class features you think I could put on the other side of my villain?

What's good for the goose, and all.

sofawall
2009-05-25, 02:34 AM
Ooh, something I meant to ask, are the enemies limited to our options as well?

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 02:34 AM
I'll leave it up to AA whether the Wild roll applies first, or the manifester bonus applies first.

Practiced Spellcaster specifies it applies when most useful. However, recall that it's modifying a Warmage.

Further, Factotum 4 with it's amazing 3 IP and no Font of Inspiration is no more broken than Wizard 4/Commoner 9 at this level. Sure, the first four levels are great but it's the levels that come afterward which are the important parts.

Finally, I didn't take the level which allowed me to regain swift actions, merely regain maneuvers to refresh his Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

Talic
2009-05-25, 02:44 AM
Practiced Spellcaster specifies it applies when most useful. However, recall that it's modifying a Warmage.

Further, Factotum 4 with it's amazing 3 IP and no Font of Inspiration is no more broken than Wizard 4/Commoner 9 at this level. Sure, the first four levels are great but it's the levels that come afterward which are the important parts.

Finally, I didn't take the level which allowed me to regain swift actions, merely regain maneuvers to refresh his Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

It didn't jerk. It was just twitching.
Those are hot button classes, and there were a lot of them, and I'm AFB, lol.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 02:47 AM
Those are hot button classes, and there were a lot of them, and I'm AFB, lol.

Still. One of them is modifying a warmage :smalltongue:

Mostly, the last guy is just a thought experiment to see how much damage I can do in a full-round action and maybe be a semi-useful caster.

Talic
2009-05-25, 02:55 AM
Ooh, something I meant to ask, are the enemies limited to our options as well?

Enemies are predesigned. People running them have a loosely-limited DM status, so as to be able to adjudicate things on the fly, and to take workload off of AA.


Still. One of them is modifying a warmage :smalltongue:Point.


Mostly, the last guy is just a thought experiment to see how much damage I can do in a full-round action and maybe be a semi-useful caster.Centaur Hulking hurler Psywar?

..
...

I KEED, I KEED!

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-25, 03:06 AM
Centaur Hulking hurler Psywar?

..
...

I KEED, I KEED!

Allow me to amend my previous statement: and still be a semi-useful arcane caster. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Though, one thing I've always wanted to try is Warhulk..

Talic
2009-05-25, 03:29 AM
Warhulk: Great in Gestalt, blah in non-gestalt.

High strength Wu-Gen with Giant Size spell.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 07:35 AM
However, I do have at very least level distributions for my 13s. Either way, after a bit of discussion I've decided to request Dungeonscape instead. I'd be dropping off Complete Mage and instead picking up Factotum in particular to replace my SS/Rogue.

Always a little leery when Factotum comes on board, but fair enough.


Human Cleric 8/Crusader 1/RKV 4. End Result: Crusader IL of 9, Cleric SL of 11. Makes up for low BAB with spells. More or less traditional 'Zillafication.

This one is bending the rules; you cant have two primary cleric characters.


Human Factotum 4/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 3. End Result: My "I deal damage" guy. He just happens to deal damage with, you know, coins and things. Failing that, daggers. Factotum for skills, trapfinding, and Intelligence to things.

Gambit? :smallbiggrin: Well, it will be interesting.


Human Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 6. End Result: Cleric SL of 13. DMM(Quicken) or (Chain) will probably come in handy. Basic buff/healbot.

Like I said; this one is the obvious healbot. The other one can't be a primary cleric.


And on the final guy, I wanted to do something interesting and a little weird. Specifically:

Human Warmage 5/Wild Mage 7. End Result: Lots of metamagic and Practiced Spellcaster would be utilized to mitigate the penalty of Wild Magic. Strange, but a blaster caster to the core.

Odd...


I'll leave it up to AA whether the Wild roll applies first, or the manifester bonus applies first.

I have no idea what that means, frankly, but it smells of curdled milk. Someone wanna fill me in so I can make a ruling?


I seem to recall UA being allowed.

That is correct.


I also have not noticed anything banning Gestalt.

That is technically true. But if you go gestalt, the villains will immediately do likewise. And they will do it better, because they are more powerful, and they will do it scarier.

Don't do gestalt. :smallwink:


Ooh, something I meant to ask, are the enemies limited to our options as well?

Nope.

Granted, many of them don't even have class levels, so it would be more than slightly restrictive to hold them to the same standard.

Garian
2009-05-25, 08:19 AM
Am I corect that level 1-2 is not taken for players? Or is it not taken for DM's. Either way I have a love of low levels and would like a spot on player or DM for level 1-2.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 08:22 AM
I have no idea what that means, frankly, but it smells of curdled milk. Someone wanna fill me in so I can make a ruling?


A Wild mage has her caster level reduced by 3. This is compensated by rolling a 1d6, and adding the result to the caster level. By taking Practised Caster, the caster level penalty can be nulled, but I believe that the common ruling is that instead of adding 1d6 to the caster level without penalties, the rolls of 1, 2 and 3 are null: only the results 4, 5 and 6 count. For an example, the Wild mage rolls a 4 on her Wild Magic roll with Practised Caster: she gains +1 caster level. Effectively, the two boni overlap, and only the larger number applies.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 08:25 AM
Am I corect that level 1-2 is not taken for players? Or is it not taken for DM's. Either way I have a love of low levels and would like a spot on player or DM for level 1-2.

There are two players registered at that level and no DMs. If you'd like to DM, I can pencil you in and send you the details.


A Wild mage has her caster level reduced by 3. This is compensated by rolling a 1d6, and adding the result to the caster level.

Ah, yes; I remember that.


By taking Practised Caster, the caster level penalty can be nulled

There's the cheese. :smallannoyed:


but I believe that the common ruling is that instead of adding 1d6 to the caster level without penalties, the rolls of 1, 2 and 3 are null: only the results 4, 5 and 6 count.

Well, let's go with that, then.

Garian
2009-05-25, 08:29 AM
There are two players registered at that level and no DMs. If you'd like to DM, I can pencil you in and send you the details.


Please do then, thanks!

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 08:37 AM
Alright, that's done. Take a look, PM me with questions/comments/concerns/changes.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 08:52 AM
Hey, anyone up for level 1 DM:ing?

BobVosh
2009-05-25, 08:59 AM
Hey, anyone up for level 1 DM:ing?

Dood! Like 2 posts up!

I've been without net/other issues the last few days. I have returned and tonight I will have built my ECL 5 party. Sorry about the delay AA.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 08:59 AM
Garian just volunteered, but I'll be glad to do so if you're ready.

BobVosh: It happens. No worries.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 09:02 AM
Heh, I really should pay more attention here. I'm ready, but I'm also willing to wait - I'm good either way.

EDIT: In the other hand, I have the whole evening free. Hmm.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 09:12 AM
Well, let me know if you'd like to run it now with me or later with Garian; there's another player prepping for the same level in any event.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 09:26 AM
Well, let me know if you'd like to run it now with me or later with Garian; there's another player prepping for the same level in any event.

Hmm. Well, since Garian isn't online at the moment, and probably hasn't had time to prepare, and I do have an evening mostly free... And who could resist having the maker of these things - I presume - running them himself?

So sure, let's run it now. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-05-25, 09:27 AM
Speaking of, are you going to be linking us all to these fights afro? I'd love to see them as they happen.

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 09:29 AM
afroakuma: I assume it's ok to use partial BAB & Saves for all my characters? Two probably aren't going to multiclass so it won't mean much to them (Psychic Warrior and Druid), but the Rogue is going Rogue 13/Swordsage 2 and the Wizard will PrC out on level 6.

I'd prefer partial BAB & saves, since they make sense; they avoid the όberhigh good saves and low bad saves from multiclassing, and the annoyingly weird BAB.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 09:30 AM
Hmm. Well, since Garian isn't online at the moment, and probably hasn't had time to prepare, and I do have an evening mostly free... And who could resist having the maker of these things - I presume - running them himself?

So sure, let's run it now. :smallbiggrin:

Alright: Test Your Might Trial I, Soundstage A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6151635#post6151635)

Setup: Water breathing cast on all your party. Buff rounds, yes or no?

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 09:35 AM
afroakuma: I assume it's ok to use partial BAB & Saves for all my characters? Two probably aren't going to multiclass so it won't mean much to them (Psychic Warrior and Druid), but the Rogue is going Rogue 13/Swordsage 2 and the Wizard will PrC out on level 6.

I'd prefer partial BAB & saves, since they make sense; they avoid the όberhigh good saves and low bad saves from multiclassing, and the annoyingly weird BAB.

Ehh...

Well, I suppose whatever turns your crank. You get the BAB, we get to laser you with save challenges. Fair enough.

Adumbration
2009-05-25, 09:36 AM
Alright: Test Your Might Trial I, Soundstage A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6151635#post6151635)

Setup: Water breathing cast on all your party. Buff rounds, yes or no?

Preferably not. There's really nothing to buff with, at least not in a meaningful way.

Garian
2009-05-25, 09:46 AM
oops. Sorry about the delay. I will PM sofawall about when we start our game.

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 09:47 AM
Hey, don't worry. This is why we're having multiple goes.

In the meantime, feel free to venture over, see what works and what doesn't.

Anyway, we're all ready to go. Let the match begin!

woodenbandman
2009-05-25, 10:18 AM
Is Complete Warrior accessible to my sneak for taking, say, Arterial Strike?

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 10:20 AM
We'll go with yes.

wykydtron
2009-05-25, 10:35 AM
Hey so I'm still not sure what spots are open. Should I go ahead and make a party for something?

afroakuma
2009-05-25, 10:36 AM
wykydtron: Technically, everything is open. The list at the front just shows who's signed up for what. We don't mind multiple trials; I can guarantee that some of the DMs are slavering to kill multiple parties. :smallwink:

Sign up for whichever one(s) you think you'd like.

lord_khaine
2009-05-25, 10:46 AM
my lv 5 party, the fellowship of the branch, is ready.

Goy Redblade (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=2641), Psychic warrior/warblade
Turkon Dundershield (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=2635), Cleric
Suvius (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=2640), shaper
Lekbar Leafbitter (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=2642), Rogue/swordsage