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View Full Version : What spell schools can you do without? (3.5)



krossbow
2009-05-23, 01:19 AM
Which spell schools would you say a wizard could do without when choosing their barred school? Alot of the schools are basically REQUIRED to even function as a wizard at any real level.


For example, as the comic has shown us, a wizard without conjuration is really, really boned when it comes to alot of things, such as teleportation. Another such school is abjuration, which is very difficult to live without as a wizard, losing many nigh manadatory spells (though good use of illusion can somewhat compensate).


Which spell schools do you think can most easily be passed up? (and yes, everyone will say evocation, so maybe list a few more)

Shadowbane
2009-05-23, 01:29 AM
Enchantment. Necromancy. Evocation, obviously.

The Mentalist
2009-05-23, 01:33 AM
I can do without either Enchantment or Necromancy, one of the two. It may just be the local DMs but I've never found Divination of much use either.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-23, 01:37 AM
I know this will sound ironic considering my personality, but I could do without Abjuration as long as there's someone in the group who can cast Dispell. (A lot of the other good Abjurations are available to other people as well).

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 01:41 AM
I think Enchantment is actually the easiest school to give up. Its even more 1 dimensional than Evocation is. At least Evocation has gems like Wall of Force, Force Cage, and Contingency. Enchantment has all of like, 3 spells that don't have the [Mind Affecting] tag on them. That means that nearly all of your enchantments are WORTHLESS vs Plants, Undead, Constructs, Vermin, and anyone under the effects of a Mind Blank effect (like Occult Slayers, Illithid Slayers, or Holy Liberators). If you want [Mind Affecting], Necromancy has a number of [Fear] effects, and Illusion could also get you done.

Second would be Evocation, for the reasons above. As I said in another thread, Conjouration killed Evocation and took most of its stuff about a half an edition ago.

Third would be Abjuration. Again, a few gems in there. Dispel Magic is most obvious, but things like Anticipate Teleport and Superior Resistance are good too. Most of the protections aren't really that great for a straight caster and benefit more of a Gish type character.

Fourth, if you absolutely couldn't drop Abjuration, would be Necromancy. Necromancy has some of the best no-save debuffage in the game. Its most powerful in lower level games, but is also decent at high levels. Heck, my wizard in a PbP game just cast a Split Ray of Enfeeblement because it was the most effective spell to cast at the moment. Not a 5th or 6th level spell, a lowely 3rd level spell made from a metamagiced 1st level spell. Enervation alone makes this school worthwhile, IMO, but if you really need other stuff, this school overlaps a fair bit with Tranmutation (Fort save or screwed) and Conjouration (no save....just screwed).

Conjouration, Transmutation, and Illusion are the untouchables. If you drop any of them, be prepared to walk with a crutch, since you'll be pretty much crippled. Conjouration in particular, IS magic in D&D. It covers EVERYTHING, and nothing can compare to it. Its just amazing. Transmutation has the best buffs in the game, out-buffing Enchantment, which should. It has Haste and the whole Polymorph subschool. Illusion is the weakest of the big 3, but still stronger than the others. It contains the best defensive magics in the game. Miss chances are king in D&D, and this school has most of them. Between (Greater) Mirror Image and Displacement, your odds of actually getting hit are almost nil. You'll pretty much make a better tank than a tank with these puppies running, which is pretty freakin awesome.

Talic
2009-05-23, 01:42 AM
Evocation: By and large, they do damage, and that's about it. Haste, and such will get a better return on your investment than most evocation spells. If you need an evocation spell? There are ways to get them, even if it's banned.

Illusion/Enchantment: Both good schools. However, they both target the same thing. Will saves. Enchantment has a lot of creatures that are pretty much immune to its effects, however, illusions? There are always a few useful ones. On top of that, when you've gotta evocate (Contingency, Wall of Force, etc), Illusion has Shadow Evocation... So of the two, Enchantment is generally considered the better drop.

After this, it gets harder.

Necromancy: A Lot of strong effects, and getting rid of Enervate hurts. However, Death effects here are generally fort save or lose, which Transmutation can do as well.

Spell schools that are hard to lose:

Transmutation. The most versatile school in D&D. Period. Shapechanging. Buffing. Debuff. Crowd control. Etc. If you lose this? You're a worse mage for it.

Conjuration. Slightly less useful than transmutation, but it is the primary source for monster summoning (CC) and SR: No spells (Conjuration-Creation)

Abjuration: Protection from evil gives a big finger to the bulk of the enchantment school at level 1. Dispel magic is made of Win. Nuff said.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-23, 01:43 AM
Abjuration: Some good spells(Protection from X), and a few vital ones(Dispel), but not a huge school, and the best spells appear on the Cleric list anyways, so you lacking it can be compensated for by a party. Not my first choice, but...losable.
Conjuration: Huge. Has most of the Battlefield Control, some vital utility, the best damage, great effects. Cannot be dropped, first choice to specialize in.
Divination: Legally cannot be dropped, and important enough that you don't really want to.
Enchantment: Great Will save-spells(I'd rather cast some of them than a will SoD effect), but ruined by Mindblank, and useless against a good chunk of the monster manual. Not to mention that, like Evocation, very close to a one-trick pony. Droppable, though you may regret it once or twice.
Evocation: One-trick pony(how many different ways do you need to say 'roll CL d6s of X color? Besides, the school can be replaced by basically 2 spells: Orb of X and Shadow Evocation. Lose it.
Illusion: Great personal defense options(though those should be a last resort), great variety in some spells(X Image), the replacement to Evocation, the replcement to Enchantment, it's great. Losable, but hurts like heck to do so.
Necromancy: Great no-save effects, some utility, some good debuffing, a couple great metamagic-based spells,some damage, but is generally best at low levels. At higher levels, Death Ward pops up, and the schools best spells are generally 4th or lower, so I while it can be compensated for if lost, doing so hurts until you pass about level 12. After that, it's dropable(though Enervation's loss will be felt long after that, and RoC is still the best way of taking down a Dragon when you're facing Bahumet).
Transmutation: Great buffs, great Fort SoD, good utility, good Debuff, a lot of good spells. Cannot be compensated for if lost. Falls just behind Conj on the power curve. Do not drop.

In order, then(IMHO, of course): Evocation, Enchantment, Abjuration(unless you're the only full-caster, in which case lose Illusion and Necro first), Necromancy(unless you start above level 10), Illusion(earlier if low-level and you for some reason kept Enchant and Evoc), Transmutation, Conjuration.

Saph
2009-05-23, 01:51 AM
You don't really NEED any of the spell schools. After all, if you can live without them at low level, you can live without them at mid level. Teleport, for instance - being without it just means that the adventure will happen in a different place.

Honestly, the only two schools I'd ever be really reluctant to lose would be Conjuration and Transmutation, because they're the "generalist" schools - the ones you use to cover everything else. Even so, I could live without one (though probably not both).

As for the others:

• Evocation - kills things. Easily duplicated.
• Necromancy - kills things (duplicated) and debuffs things (optional).
• Enchantment - charms/debuffs things. Optional.
• Illusion - defenses (other schools can fill in) and tricks (optional).
• Abjuration - most of the really good abjuration spells can be cast by clerics.
• Divination - you can't ban it, but it's still optional. Just don't do recon. Most parties can't be bothered with lengthy information gathering anyway.

Starscream
2009-05-23, 02:31 AM
I typically dispose of Evocation and Enchantment, or Evocation and Necromancy.

Abjuration and Divination are sort of 'meh'. They both have some great spells, but aren't my primary focus.

Transmutation and Conjuration are the power schools. Never give these up.

But my personal favorite is Illusion. The only limit of that school is your own creativity.

BobVosh
2009-05-23, 02:44 AM
Never get rid of conjuration. Never get rid of illusion. Anything else can go.

Typically get rid of evocation and enchantment.

However, lately, we have been playing pathfinder with the generalist school being so good I don't drop any. Hard to say no to divination school in PF though.

Mystic Muse
2009-05-23, 06:36 AM
rules state you can't ban divination anyways.

yilduz
2009-05-23, 07:40 AM
My illusionist gave up evocation and necromancy. He hasn't been played in a game for a long time, so I was doing some slight revisions on him, and decided a third school to give up (for an ability granted to specialists to cast more spells) was abjuration. He only used a couple of spells from that school and they weren't really important for him...

so...

-evocation
-necromancy
-abjuration

Morty
2009-05-23, 07:59 AM
My wizard is doing fine without Conjuration and Illusion. So really, some schools are more easily dropped and some less, but you can live even if you ban any schools, even the sacred cows of wizard optimizers. You might not be the on top efficiency without them, but do you really need it?

darkblust
2009-05-23, 08:38 AM
personnally,my fav. school is illusion.might be beacause i play a beguiler who can easily kill the ranger,but watever.You could lose necromancy,since it seems that it is mostly for evil wizards and if a npc sees you raising an army of undead,they might,just might,get suspicious.I would also get rid of abjuration,but it has some usefull spells like imprisonment,mordenkainen's disjunction,and dispel magic.You definitly do not want to drop transmutation.Enchantment can be usefull at level 7 or so,beacause of suggestion,but nothing else is really that worthwhile.Does anybody know why disintegrate is in transmutation?

Eldariel
2009-05-23, 08:44 AM
Does anybody know why disintegrate is in transmutation?

Because the whole spell is about breaking up (in other words, transmuting) the matter you aim at. That's why it works on objects too, unlike stuff like Finger of Death.

Gorbash
2009-05-23, 09:09 AM
You might not be the on top efficiency without them, but do you really need it?

Question is, why would you want to? Why cripple yourself needlessly?

When I was making my Transmuter, I really had a hard time deciding which schools to ban, because everyone had some spells I really loved. I really wanted to stick by Ehchantment if only for Otto's and I'd sacrifice Illusion and Evocation, but I really couldn't. Illusion just offers too much protection which can't be that easily replicated. Mirror Image + Displacement combo is pure gold. Not to mention all 3 versions of Invisibility. So even though its offensive spells aren't that great, I wouldn't sacrifice it just because of those spells.

It was hard for me to ban Evocation, too, belive it or not. Spells like Bigby's Crushing Hand, Contingency, Wind Wall, Crushing Grip etc are good spells, and even though they can be replicated by Shadow Evocation, I'm always reluctant to spend higher lvl slots for spells of lower lvl.

Abjuration is also a big no for banning. Even though Clerics also have access to Dispel Magic, keep in mind that Wizards have an easier time boosting their CL (Create Magic Tattoo, Ring of Arcane Might, Robe of Arcane Might, Spell Enhancer and the infamous Bead of Karma, accessible by investing in UMD) and one important feat, Arcane Mastery, which lets you take 10 on CL checks which means you'll succeed every time with CL boosted in said ways.
Also, Greater/Superior Resistance. Everyone has to remember that not every Cleric is a paragon of altruism and be willing to sacrifice his slots all the time to buff you, so you better do it yourself. And the dreaded Maw of Chaos.

By banning Evocation and Necromancy you'd sacrifice too much offensive, hard-hitting spells. Ray of Enfeeblement, Sickness, Clumsiness, Channeled Lifetheft, False Life (I'm a big fan of stacking temp HP), Waves of Exhaustion etc, so my advice is banning Evocation and Enchantment, every time.

Glyde
2009-05-23, 09:18 AM
Depends on the character for me. Currently I have a Diviner with banned Necromancy, and it's mostly for RP reasons. Also because if I banned evocation, I wouldn't be able to create blasting-crap wands to dual wield.

Elminster1
2009-05-23, 09:25 AM
Aside Evocation, with the few jewels I like (Wall of Force, Contigency and Howling Chain), Enchantment is kinda blah, almost anything it can do can be reproduced by Illusion (a VERY good school).

I was REALLY surprised anyone would ever give up Abjuration though, crikey. I love abjuration. Aside from the entire Dispel Magic series, al the way up to Reaving Dispel and Mordenkainen's Disjunction, I find Prismatic Sphere pretty hot. But, that's me I suppose.

I do like Necromancy, it's the debuff school. Alot of no save spells and rays. Can't give that up.

Conjuration and Transmutation go without saying, are just sickengly good. Oh, and FUN.

That's my 2 cents. :smallsmile:

Morty
2009-05-23, 10:30 AM
Question is, why would you want to? Why cripple yourself needlessly?


Because you feel like it? Because those schools don't fit your character concept? Because you simply just prefer to use spells of other schools(I don't like Conjuration for example, I'd never use most of its spells anyway)? Because you've played a wizard who focuses on one of those schools once and now you want to try something different? Because, as mentioned, lack of the spells from the top shelf doesn't make you as effective as a blind kobold? There really are a lot of reasons.

Chronos
2009-05-23, 11:56 AM
I could probably get by with a wizard using absolutely nothing but conjurations. Or, likewise, absolutely nothing but transmutations, or absolutely nothing but illusions. Therefore, I'd say that you can do without any of them.

nightwyrm
2009-05-23, 12:32 PM
Does anybody know why disintegrate is in transmutation?

Legacy effect. Disintegrate was in the Alteration school in pre-3e editions, which was pretty much the catch-all school back in those days (much like how conjuration is like in 3e). When Alteration was updated to Transmutation in 3e, they just transfered a lot of the spells over and one of them was disintegrate.

I am not quite satified with the whole "transform target to dust" explanation they have going on. Such a broad and vague definition of what belongs in a school is the reason why Transmutation and Conjuration is beating up other schools and taking their stuff. If you think about it, almost every spell effect can be fluffed as "changing the property of one thing to another" or "create something from nothing".

Gorbash
2009-05-23, 01:24 PM
If you think about it, almost every spell effect can be fluffed as "changing the property of one thing to another" or "create something from nothing".

Well there's a difference... For example, it could be argued that both Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation create something from nothing, but there's a difference. Conjuration specifically creates objects, while Evocation creates forces (fire, air, lightning, pure force etc).

nightwyrm
2009-05-23, 01:28 PM
Well there's a difference... For example, it could be argued that both Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation create something from nothing, but there's a difference. Conjuration specifically creates objects, while Evocation creates forces (fire, air, lightning, pure force etc).

hmmm....see Orb of X spells, Melf's acid arrow, Arc of lightning etc.

It's not that I don't agree with you in theory, but in practice, conjuration can get a lot of bleed over from other schools depending on the spell's fluff. This is mainly because schools like conjuration and transmutation is defined by fluff while schools like divination, necromancy, abjuration or enchantment are defined primarily by function or mechanics.

krossbow
2009-05-23, 03:08 PM
In the games i play, generally we move the orb and disintegrate spells to evocation. While i can see some reasoning behind them, my groups usually go with a few definitions for the differences between conjuration and evocation.

Conjuration can produce objects and substances; because of this, there's no problem with acid or metal, ect. However, since fire and electricity are energy or reactions, we generally draw the line there.

Evocation is generally producing energy or reactions; things such as explosions, fire, ect. Because of this, orbs, fire, electricity, sonic and cold go here. Since disintegration seems to be more like your blasting something with a form of energy specifically than taking it apart, we generally agree to put disintegrate there.










But either or, sorry, getting into more of a evocation discussion there. I never really considered enchantment as being so week before; those are some good points. The problem with enchantment really is its so hit or miss; against things it works on, it pwns hardcore, but its completely useless otherwise.

valadil
2009-05-23, 03:12 PM
Enchantment and illusion are redundant as both have some powerful spells but are almost entirely will based. I usually dump enchantment as illusion is more fun and interesting (and arguably powerful).