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jamminjelly
2009-05-23, 02:50 AM
I chose to DM for the first time and I am preparing for a 4e game due to the systems simplicity. I want to make the combat fair, yet challenging for the PC's. According to the DM Guide, there are recommended "XP Budgets" for players according to party size and level. The book suggests 400 XP worth of monster(s) for a moderately difficult encounter for four level 1 characters.

In practice does this actually work? For example, if I make the party fight 4 kobold minions and 3 kobold slingers (400 XP exactly) will they win the fight without too much difficulty? I understand that the combination of the creatures as well as the tactics and dice rolls will have an effect as well but, as a general rule of thumb, is this a fair system?

tcrudisi
2009-05-23, 03:02 AM
I chose to DM for the first time and I am preparing for a 4e game due to the systems simplicity. I want to make the combat fair, yet challenging for the PC's. According to the DM Guide, there are recommended "XP Budgets" for players according to party size and level. The book suggests 400 XP worth of monster(s) for a moderately difficult encounter for four level 1 characters.

In practice does this actually work? For example, if I make the party fight 4 kobold minions and 3 kobold slingers (400 XP exactly) will they win the fight without too much difficulty? I understand that the combination of the creatures as well as the tactics and dice rolls will have an effect as well but, as a general rule of thumb, is this a fair system?

Yes, it's a great system, for the most part. You will find that, depending on the party make-up, some combats will be harder than others, but under what system isn't this true? Also, just to make sure, there is one more rule (in the DMG) that you will want to know about: Never throw the PC's at a monster that is more than their level +5. I don't care if the book says they can handle 400xp worth of monsters, if you put them up against a monster that is their level +6 or higher, they will die. The DMG says this, but I had a DM that missed that rule. Our 5th level party tried to fight a level 14 monster. We didn't land one hit and lost 2 characters. The sad part is that it wasn't even possible for those 2 characters to escape. They were grabbed round one with no chance to escape.

As a good rule of thumb, though, most encounters should probably be equal to that bundle of their level or their level +1. During boss encounters, make it their level +4. They'll have a very difficult time, but it's still doable.

That's how I handle it, and it keeps my players happy.

jamminjelly
2009-05-23, 03:23 AM
Thank you. I will keep this in mind. I had assumed that encounter difficulty would fluctuate depending on the circumstances.


Never throw the PC's at a monster that is more than their level +5. I don't care if the book says they can handle 400xp worth of monsters, if you put them up against a monster that is their level +6 or higher, they will die.

I figured that I shouldn't do that. For the most part I use my old characters as a template for gauging the difficulty of a monster so I don't run into this problem.

Now, I am also wondering how much these encounters should reward the players. I have a quest that should get the PC's from level 1 to 2. They can find up to 800 or so GP as well as about 3 +1 weapons/armor as well as a few other things (potions, special ammunition, etc.) during their time spent in the swamp. Does this seem fair?

tcrudisi
2009-05-23, 03:31 AM
For a party of 5, from going from level 1 to level 2, they should find the following:

level 2 magic item
level 3 magic item
level 4 magic item
level 5 magic item
720 gold.

Consult DMG p.126 for more information, especially if you have fewer or more than 5 players. It lays everything out in bundles, whereas I just combined everything for simplicity sake.

Of course, if you wanted a potion of healing to be part of the loot, just subtract 50 from the 720gp.

potatocubed
2009-05-23, 04:46 AM
Yeah, the 4e system is pretty balanced for the most part - it's the occasional exceptions you have to look out for. Watch out for soldiers, who tend to 'punch above their weight', so to speak; swarms; anything that does knockdown.

(Note that needlefang drake swarms are a soldier swarm that does knockdown and extra damage against things that are knocked down. Use sparingly.)

I've found that a low-level party can handle things of their level +lots, but only if you keep an eye on the monster's attacks and defences. Low-level parties are going to be rolling +7 to +8 against AC and +3 to +7 against other defences. Some level 8 monsters (ogre, for example) have defences low enough that the party has a chance and damage low enough that they won't insta-kill everyone they hit. Think of these as 'mini-bosses'.

RebelRogue
2009-05-23, 07:29 AM
In general, the challenge will be a little low: it's assumed you'll have a number of encounters of this level a day. If you're only aiming for one or two big fights for a particular day, you can add safely two or three encounter levels (check the table on DMG pg. 56). The max +4 level of the monsters is a good rule of thumb too. However, as has been said some monsters are a little tough for their level, such as the aforementioned swarm. Also, recently I almost wiped a 1st level party with a perfectly appropriate encounter of fire beetles (multiple simultaneous close blasts, 3d6 fire damage are not to be taken lightly at that level). But go for it: you get used to it in no time, really.

Yakk
2009-05-23, 10:39 AM
Characters with 16 in their prime attack stat (ie, not terribly, or well, optimised), who pick powers and feats based on flavour and character concept and not mechanical usefulness, who play combat quickly at a beer-and-pretzels level, but who remember to use their powers, will be able to beat 4 even-level encounters without regular TPK.

On the other hand, can throw a sequence of 4 level +1 to level+2 encounters at the party, or even 3 level +1 or +2 with a +3 or +4 boss encounter, and not have a TPK.

4e D&D does do attrition over the course of a day. You want the party to have a reason not to retreat and come back the next day: because it takes a hard encounter to threaten the party in one encounter. Build the campaign around the expected number of encounters per day, so retreating or resting in the middle is unnatural.

Ie, don't have a tight dungeon with 8 level+2 encounters in it, because then the party will be out of resources if they try to clear it, and justifying "you can retreat and camp once, but not twice or three times" is rather forced.

Instead, have each lair or dungeon have encounter chunks that naturally lead to breaks every N encounters, where N starts with 4 and scales based on what you are comphy with. (If N is smaller, harder encounters -- if N is larger, easier ones. Generally a one-encounter day is going to be easy unless you threaten a TPK.)

There are individual monsters that are 'off budget' -- at low levels, these include needlefang drake swarms and fire beatles. Both of these are too tough for their XP total. Reading the DMG section on making monsters can give you a better eye for that kind of thing.

Thajocoth
2009-05-23, 11:08 AM
The fights should not all be on-level. It depends a lot on how many encounters you want the party to face that day.

Throwing a fight at the party 3 levels above them is fine when that's the only thing they will fight today while the party can take a lot of fights 1 level below themselves in a single day. The DMG suggests ranging from 1 level below the party to 3 levels above.

I usually stick to 1-2 above. Though, the Action Points section talks about counting battles 4-levels above the party as 2 battles for the purposes of milestones... 4 levels above though is nearly guaranteeing TPK imo.

Also... It's not just the XP number. Keep the monsters within, say, 6 levels of the players. Your party of 4 1st level players stands no chance against a single level 9 monster, even though that's an encounter worth exactly 400xp.

And lastly... The way I give treasure is usually to have the enemies wearing/wielding it. It's great when an enemy activates an item's daily power, and it gives the players plenty of time to think about who will be getting that item.

jamminjelly
2009-05-23, 12:01 PM
Thank you all, this is very helpful. I will use this info to plan future sessions.

It might be easier to tell you the gist of what I have planned, and see if it can't be modified. I have a big swamp "dungeon" planned for Sunday that the players should be able to get through in one sitting.

The party is level 1 and over the course of the dungeon they will fight:
2 level -1 encounter (one with cover, one next to a trap)
4 level 1 encounters
1 level + 1 encounter
1 level + 3 boss encounter

There won't be much of a place to rest in the dungeon. Does this sound fair?



(Note that needlefang drake swarms are a soldier swarm that does knockdown and extra damage against things that are knocked down. Use sparingly.)


So would an encounter featuring 1 kobold minion at a gate alerting 2 gaurd drakes and a needlefang drake swarm be okay? It's 400XP exactly but it does have a deadly drake swarm in it.

ninja_penguin
2009-05-23, 12:47 PM
The needledrake swarm, along with the fire beetles, are two monster types that will make players freak out, and are pretty powerful. I've never used the needledrake, but I nearly scored a TPK with two fire beetles because the party grouped up.

I've had odd luck with Brutes, and enemies with high-crit weapons. They are either stupidly ineffective, or nearly kill everybody. Also, high tension boss fights can be achieved with higher level monsters, but again, never do higher then Level + 5.

Also, I've found that elites tend to give my players more trouble then solos, but your mileage may vary.

Also, re: Resting. Short rests should be allowed (recharge of encounter powers, ability to spend healing surges to replenish HP). If you want to not do as many longer rests that can work, but don't try and punish players if an encounter goes badly, so you'll need to play it by ear.

NecroRebel
2009-05-23, 01:08 PM
Thank you all, this is very helpful. I will use this info to plan future sessions.

It might be easier to tell you the gist of what I have planned, and see if it can't be modified. I have a big swamp "dungeon" planned for Sunday that the players should be able to get through in one sitting.

The party is level 1 and over the course of the dungeon they will fight:
2 level -1 encounter (one with cover, one next to a trap)

Wouldn't that be a level 0 encounter? :smallconfused:

Not to mention that traps are given an xp-value and are intended to be included in encounters as another "monster." Check the DMG; traps' xp is considered to be part of the encounter they are put in.


4 level 1 encounters
1 level + 1 encounter
1 level + 3 boss encounter

There won't be much of a place to rest in the dungeon. Does this sound fair?

Should be fine.


So would an encounter featuring 1 kobold minion at a gate alerting 2 gaurd drakes and a needlefang drake swarm be okay? It's 400XP exactly but it does have a deadly drake swarm in it.

Does your party have a lot of dwarves and/or dragonborn in it? As in, the entire party consists of dwarves and dragonborn?

If not, needlefang drake swarms are death on dozens of little legs. That would be fine as a level+1 encounter (NDS probably should be level 4, given their power). The swarm is just that powerful unless you have knockdown resistance (dwarves) or lots of AoE powers (dragonborn).



The swarms are really at their nastiest when there's multiple in one encounter, though. Their abilities synergize with one another insanely well. Consider a mob that includes 3 Needlefang Drake Swarms. The first one moves up to a party member and uses Pull Down. If it succeeds, it then uses Swarm of Teeth, or if it fails, it uses Pull Down again. They have a better-than-even chance of pulling down any level 1-4 character, so their target will be prone unless they're a dwarf, in which case they'll only probably be prone.

Then, the other two swarms come in and, if the target is down, they Swarm of Teeth it, dealing roughly 13 damage, average. Otherwise, they, too attempt Pull Down, and, once more, one of them probably succeeds.

Finally, their victim's turn starts. They're in 3 Swarm Attack auras, thus they're subject to 3 Swarm of Teeth attacks. At least one is likely to hit, dealing another 13 damage. You'll notice that that character took 26 damage, and that most level 1 characters have about 20-30 health. You could lose a level 1 character to this "equal level" encounter, first round. And since the swarms supposedly attack to feed, well, they're not going to stop attacking a PC just because they're unconscious. Skeletonize, anyone?

Wash, rinse, repeat. It also takes a lot to kill the swarms, because they take have damage from melee and ranged attacks. So, 3 NDS is entirely capable of killing 2 or 3 level 4 characters before it gets taken down, unless the party has dwarves who can't get pulled down as easily or dragonborn who can breath the bastards down.

Death on legs.

jamminjelly
2009-05-23, 01:36 PM
Wouldn't that be a level 0 encounter? :smallconfused:

Yes but, by level -1 I just mean that is easier than their level, like 3 Kobold Slingers atop a fort



Does your party have a lot of dwarves and/or dragonborn in it? As in, the entire party consists of dwarves and dragonborn?


1 Gnome Bard, 1 Half Orc Barbarian, 1 Rogue or similarly sneaky class, 1 druid (probably). The things will be scratching at the gate though so, they will have at least a round to ready an action or something.

potatocubed
2009-05-23, 03:54 PM
I suspect your party will have real trouble with the needlefang drakes because they have no area or blast attacks - every attack will be for half damage.

On the other hand, giving the party the occasional 'ZOMGWTF' encounter is good for them. Keeps the players' hearts beating, that sort of thing. :smalltongue:

One option could be to set up a firepit or something in the encounter that the characters can try to slide the swarm into. That has the extra effect of teaching your players to use the battlefield to defeat enemies they may have trouble slaying directly.

ninja_penguin
2009-05-23, 03:58 PM
1 Gnome Bard, 1 Half Orc Barbarian, 1 Rogue or similarly sneaky class, 1 druid (probably). The things will be scratching at the gate though so, they will have at least a round to ready an action or something.

Problem: Unless that action is 'RUN AWAY!', somebody is still getting the Jurassic Park treatment. Their biggest problem is their ability to knock people prone with the minor action, it's a big issue.

Possible solution: Make the needlefang drakes neutral; have them devour the closest target, and make sure that it's a kobold; might drive the point home to the players. The swarm half-damage rules also make them very vicious.

Thajocoth
2009-05-23, 11:13 PM
Controller is the most often overlooked role. That's why swarms and lots of minions seem to cause players trouble. No group I'm in has ever had that problem because we've always had a controller that could toss blasts in when there or swarms, with one exception inwhich half the party is dragonborn.

You SHOULD have encounters like that though, that show the party where their weaknesses are... (And others that show their strengths.) In a campaign I'm GMing, the party is 100% melee and they almost always target AC. As a result, every fight seems a lot harder because an enemy usually either has high AC or is in the distance firing... And their 2nd fight at level 1 had 2 of those fire beetles in it someone was talking about earlier. It was a challenge, but not a problem. I think the drake swarm is probably the same way. I wouldn't change it.

Also... Terrain. How interesting the fight is is usually related to how interesting the terrain is. In one campaign I'm in, the room usually gets an initiative value to do something, and that one has the most fun battles of all. (I'm trying to figure out how to do the same in my campaign without him realizing I'm copying some of his style. We're in one another's campaigns.) Keep in mind that empty rooms or open plains generally make things less interesting.