[3.5 ToB] Maneuvers beyond level 9

[HaZaRD]

Hi guys, let me introduce you my situation.
I play in a high-powered/high-magic campaign with my level 20 Warblade and I'm about to go epic (by taking a level in Eternal Blade).
I've not yet discussed with my DM how to handle the issue of epic Intiators and Maneuvers, but I'd like to propose him a peculiar solution.
We play in the Forgotten Realms, where the Spells are capped at level 9 because of Karsus cataclysm and Mystra's subsequent birth, who recreated the Weave with new strict rules; but Manevers do not depend on the Weave and so, IMHO, there's no reason to cap their level.
I want to suggest to my DM new Maneuvers beyond level 9 and new Epic Feats that grant the access to these new degrees of power.

Here is where I need the help of a homebrewing-community (the Best one, may I add:smallcool:).
I'd like to know what do you think about this project before posting some of my first ideas.

Thanks!

[Pramxnim]

I don't really know of any homebrew martial maneuvers past level 9 yet, but I can point you to some epic feats and progressions. Krimm Blackleaf made up epic progressions for martial adepts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516), and even homebrewed 9 epic feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435), 1 for each official martial discipline.

If anyone can help homebrew an epic martial maneuver, I'm sure he can. Though I really wouldn't recommend trying to put 10th level maneuvers in the game, lest you want to provoke the ire of other players (especially the spellcasters that don't get epic spells).

[HaZaRD]

Thanks alot for the hints, but I have already read these threads and any other thread regarding Epic Maneuvers, New Maneuvers and the like.



If anyone can help homebrew an epic martial maneuver, I'm sure he can. Though I really wouldn't recommend trying to put 10th level maneuvers in the game, lest you want to provoke the ire of other players (especially the spellcasters that don't get epic spells).
In my campaign epic casting is present; many epic PNG (allies or enemies) cast epic spells and some of my comrades are developing their own.

By the way, in order to give you a clearer understanding of my project, I hereby post one of my first concept:

Diamond Razor
Diamond Mind (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 10,Warblade 10
Prerequisites: 5 Diamond Mind maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attacks
Target: One creature

As a part of this maneuver you take a full-attack action against a single creature. All the attacks against this creature are resolved as touch attacks.
If you hit, you deal normal damage.


My biggest problem about homebrewing new high-level maneuvers is to evaluate when they are balanced for their level, nor too weak, nor too strong.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, here's a large part of the problem:

Maneuvers, by their nature, are repeatable attacks, sometimes as often as every other round.

Epic spells, on the other hand, are one/day deals, sometimes slightly more often than that. They cost large amounts of time, money, and XP to create.

Thus, your maneuvers must always be weaker than the Epic Spells achievable at a similiar level...MUCH weaker.

I'd also suggest taking away the maneuver level, and replacing it with a minimum Martial Lore check to learn that specific maneuver. If there's a DC, treat the maneuver as being a 10th level maneuver, then homebrew feats to raise the DC (much like adding a DC to an Epic Spell).

When I get my new computer and get off of this temporary PoS, I may have some ideas of my own to add.

[Townopolis]

I don't know the rules for epic spells, but maybe you could simply break apart some of the difference between maneuvers and spells and try to work out some sort of epic maneuver system. At epic levels, it's not unfeasible that warriors have occasional/regular/frequent "strokes of genius" (pun intended) and initiate some sort of awesome maneuver in the middle of a fight, which they may never be able to replicate ever again.

Of course, initiating such a maneuver would happen in the middle of combat, so very quickly, and are almost purely your own prowess, so no time and money expenditure, and XP expenditure seems unlikely. They'd have to be weaker than epic spells still, but they also wouldn't have to be repeatable unlimited times/day.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Awaken the Stone Dragon
Stone Dragon (Strike)
Level: Crusader 10, Swordsage 10,Warblade 10
Prerequisites: 5 Stone Dragon maneuvers, (Homebrewed Epic Stone Dragon Feat), Martial Lore 28 ranks.
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack, 200ft. radius (see text)
Target: One creature
Epic Recharge: 4 hours (time before this maneuver can be re-used)

Your weapon slams into your hapless victim, driving them into the ground with such force that the earth erupts around them in a shower of dirt and rock. All that remains is a mangled corpse resting within an enormous crater.

As a part of this maneuver you make a single melee attack against a creature. If successful, your attack deals an extra 2d6 points of damage per Initiator level, and your foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Initiator level + your Strength modifier) or be have their Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution instantly reduced to 0 (this is not ability damage or ability drain, but does not affect Oozes, Elementals, Incorporeal Creatures, or creatures without a skeletal structure).

Additionally, regardless of the success of the attack, every creature within 200ft of you (except you) takes 1d6 points of damage per Initiator level (Reflex half, at the same DC). Finally, everything (except you) within the same radius is subject to the Earthquake spell, with a Caster Level equal to your Initiator level. The save DC for the Earthquake spell is Strength-based.

[HaZaRD]

Well, here's a large part of the problem:

Maneuvers, by their nature, are repeatable attacks, sometimes as often as every other round.

Epic spells, on the other hand, are one/day deals, sometimes slightly more often than that. They cost large amounts of time, money, and XP to create.

Thus, your maneuvers must always be weaker than the Epic Spells achievable at a similiar level...MUCH weaker.

I'd also suggest taking away the maneuver level, and replacing it with a minimum Martial Lore check to learn that specific maneuver. If there's a DC, treat the maneuver as being a 10th level maneuver, then homebrew feats to raise the DC (much like adding a DC to an Epic Spell).

When I get my new computer and get off of this temporary PoS, I may have some ideas of my own to add.

Thank you very much for your interest:smallsmile:.
I clearly understand your suggestion to replace the Maneuver level with an appropriate Martial Lore check, but my goal is to avoid epic-spell mechanics by improving the previous level-based system.

In the normal level-based system a Martial Adept can learn a Maneuver of a specific level only if it has a sufficient Initiator level.
The mathematical progression imply that one can learn Maneuvers of a level equal to half his Initiator level (as per Table 3-1 pag 39 in the ToB).
Levels from 17 to 20, although, break the previous mathematical progression by giving access only to a single new level of Maneuvers (the ninth).
I've taken this "discontinuity" and turned it into a new pattern for high-level Manuevers.

Initiator Level_____Maneuver Level
17-20____________9th
21-24____________10th
25-28____________11th
29-32____________12th
and so on...

Additionally a Martial Adept must take an Epic Feat similar to Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) to unlock each new level of Maneuver beyond the ninth (obviously the Epic Feat has an increasing Initiator Level prerequisite that match the table above).

Given that, my biggest problem is to balance the new Maneuvers, avoiding over and under-power.
Thanks.

[HaZaRD]

Awaken the Stone Dragon
Stone Dragon (Strike)
Level: Crusader 10, Swordsage 10,Warblade 10
Prerequisites: 5 Stone Dragon maneuvers, (Homebrewed Epic Stone Dragon Feat), Martial Lore 28 ranks.
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack, 200ft. radius (see text)
Target: One creature
Epic Recharge: 4 hours (time before this maneuver can be re-used)

Your weapon slams into your hapless victim, driving them into the ground with such force that the earth erupts around them in a shower of dirt and rock. All that remains is a mangled corpse resting within an enormous crater.

As a part of this maneuver you make a single melee attack against a creature. If successful, your attack deals an extra 2d6 points of damage per Initiator level, and your foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Initiator level + your Strength modifier) or be have their Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution instantly reduced to 0 (this is not ability damage or ability drain, but does not affect Oozes, Elementals, Incorporeal Creatures, or creatures without a skeletal structure).

Additionally, regardless of the success of the attack, every creature within 200ft of you (except you) takes 1d6 points of damage per Initiator level (Reflex half, at the same DC). Finally, everything (except you) within the same radius is subject to the Earthquake spell, with a Caster Level equal to your Initiator level. The save DC for the Earthquake spell is Strength-based.

Oh... My... God...
This is REALLY COOL!
I really like the "Epic Recharge Time" you introduced (never thought of that:smalltongue:) and the Martial Lore prerequisite (now I better understand what you intended).
IMHO this Manuever seems a little too strong for his level, but that's mainly because I consider 10th level Maneuver to be learnt by 21st level Martial Adept (whilst your Martial Lore prerequisite sets the minimum Martial Adept level to 25).

My intent is to create beyond-nine-level Maneuvers that can be easily learnt and used by newly-epic character.
Regarding your Maneuver, I'd move it to level 11 or 12 (therefore restricting the access to level 25 or 29 Martial Adept).
The Recharge Time is an interesting feature: I take a little time to consider its introduction.

Thanks!

P.S.
Sorry for the double post...

[RTGoodman]

IMHO this Manuever seems a little too strong for his level, but that's mainly because I consider 10th level Maneuver to be learnt by 21st level Martial Adept (whilst your Martial Lore prerequisite sets the minimum Martial Adept level to 25).

My intent is to create beyond-nine-level Maneuvers that can be easily learnt and used by newly-epic character.
Regarding your Maneuver, I'd move it to level 11 (therefore restricting the access to level 25 or higher Martial Adept).
The Recharge Time is an interesting feature: I take a little time to consider its introduction.

I think Djinn is basing it on epic spellcasting, where they're always considered 10th-level spells (IIRC). All your Epic Maneuvers would be Level 10, but you'd have to meet the OTHER prerequisites before you could learn them.

[HaZaRD]

I think Djinn is basing it on epic spellcasting, where they're always considered 10th-level spells (IIRC). All your Epic Maneuvers would be Level 10, but you'd have to meet the OTHER prerequisites before you could learn them.

Well, guess what? You're right... I've misinterpreted his idea :smalltongue::smallredface::smalltongue:...
Anyway Djinn's Maneuver, evaluated with my standard, would be a level 11 or 12 Maneuver (and an AWESOME one :smallcool:).
ASAP I will post some new material I'm working on.

All your contributes have been really useful.
Thanks and... keep up the good! :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I think Djinn is basing it on epic spellcasting, where they're always considered 10th-level spells (IIRC). All your Epic Maneuvers would be Level 10, but you'd have to meet the OTHER prerequisites before you could learn them.

Exactly. The maneuver level determines nothing but minimum Initiator level and Maneuver DC, but if all Epic Maneuvers have a DC set at (10 + 1/2 Initiator level) (which scales nicely, even at Epic levels), then we'd only need the level for the minimum Initiator level...which the skill requirement replaces nicely.

Heart of Iron
Iron Heart (Stance)
Level: Crusader 10, Swordsage 10,Warblade 10
Prerequisites: 6 Iron Heart maneuvers, (Homebrewed Epic Iron Heart Feat), Martial Lore 33 ranks.
Range: Personal

Through intense martial training, you have surpassed the normal limits of humanity, becoming nothing more than a machine of cold, precise destruction.

While in this stance, you gain the following benefits:

-Immunity to critical hits, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, stunning, sleep, poison, paralysis, fatigue, exhaustion, neasua, dazing, sickening, death effects, necromantic spells and abilities, negative energy and fear effects.
-Damage Reduction of (1/2 your Initiator Level)/-
-A +10 Martial bonus to Strength and Constitution. This bonus increases by +2 for each additional 5 ranks in Martial Lore you have beyond the required 30.
-Each round, you may make a saving throw against any and all harmful effects upon you, even if these effects would not normally allow a saving throw. The DC (if there isn't one normally) is 10 + the Challenge Rating of the initiating effect. A successful save ends the effect.

[HaZaRD]

Now I fully understand your idea of Martial Lore ranks, but - as I said - I prefer to keep distance from epic-spell mechanics.
Also in our campaign the Martial Lore skill has no use and therefore does not exist (I now realize that I should have mentioned this at the beginning... :smallredface::smallfrown:)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ah. Well, the conversion should still be easy. I happen to prefer the skill requirement (and it's not like Epic Spellcasting, which requires a skill check. It's just a minimum requirement, like a feat). That said, you can either make it the equivalent in your system, or replace the Martial Lore ranks with the respective school rank (so Tiger Claw becomes Jump, for example).


Magnificant Descent of the Sun Tiger
Desert Wind/Tiger Claw (Strike)
Level:Swordsage 10
Prerequisites: 5 Desert Wind maneuvers, 5 Tiger Claw maneuvers, (homebrewed Epic Tiger Claw feat, homebrewed Epic Desert Wind feat), Martial Lore 40 ranks.
Initiation Action: 2 full-round actions
Range: 1,000ft. radius
Target: All enemies within range.
Duration: Instantaneous
Epic Recharge: 1 week

With a mighty roar you leap into the heavens, vanishing completely from sight. Seconds pass in silence until you descend from above in a ravaging column of immolating flames, trailing the fires of the noonday sun in your wake. All your foes hear is your feral scream, and then nothing is audible but the roar of terrible flames.

During the first round you Initiate this maneuver, you leap up to the sun itself, effectively removing yourself from the combat. For 1 round you are beyond the reach of mortal magic, and are immune to all damage and all effects of attacks that would target you, whether benificial or harmful.

At the end of your turn during the second round you Initiate this maneuver, your flaming figure streaks back towards earth, landing in an eruption of solar fire. All creatures within 1,000ft. must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Initiator Level + your Wisdom modifier) or take 5d6 points of fire damage per Initiator level (a successful save results in half damage). Regardless of the success of this first save, all creatures exposed to the effect must also make a Fortitude save at the same DC or perish instantly (this is not treated as a Death effect). Creatures killed in either manner are turned to ash.

This fire damage is far more potent than anything on earth, and, as such, overcomes all resistances or immunities, except those possessed by creatures actually composed of flame (for example: a Salamander is damaged and must save-or-die, while a Fire Elemental is not).

This power levels plant-life and buildings within the radius, and nothing can grow on the destroyed land for at least 1 year. Water is instantly turned to steam, and the ground is left hard, blackened, and desolate.

[HaZaRD]

Ah. Well, the conversion should still be easy. I happen to prefer the skill requirement (and it's not like Epic Spellcasting, which requires a skill check. It's just a minimum requirement, like a feat). That said, you can either make it the equivalent in your system, or replace the Martial Lore ranks with the respective school rank (so Tiger Claw becomes Jump, for example).


You're absolutely right :smallwink:: in spite of the different approach, it's indeed very easy to convert the Maneuvers from one system to another.
Your new two-school Manuever is very impressive, mixing together an immense power (well... it's for a 37 level character... I can't even imagine what one could do at this point...:smalltongue:) with great epic-flavour.
Very nice job.
If you had some Diamond Mind/Iron Heart/Tiger Claw Manuever for low-epic level (21-25), I'd truly like to see them (and probably use them in my campaign :smallbiggrin::smallcool:).
Thanks.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Awesome, I got a popularity bump. Go me.

Anyway, I heard of a system The Demented One was working on a while ago before he become addicted to Exalted. The system was basically a whole new set of disciplines for epic levels that had little to do with the IL 1-20 maneuvers you get. I don't know if he's done ANY work on it since he mentioned it to me, but if he never does I'll probably take up the mantle and do it myself.

[HaZaRD]

Unconquerable Fortress of Blades
Iron Heart (Stance)
Level:Warblade 11
Prerequisites: 5 Iron Heart Maneuvers, Improved Manuver Capacity(10th), Improved Manuver Capacity(11th)
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

You disregard any form of protection but your own, trusted weapon. As a part of your own body, you shift and swirl your blade with incredible speed and accuracy, matching and parrying any incoming offense, shielding yourself from any harm, as an Unconquerable Fortress of Blades.

While you are in this stance, when an enemy makes a melee or ranged attack against you, you can forfeit your normal AC and use instead an opposed attack roll as your effective AC against that incoming attack.
You must decide to use this ability before knowing the result of your opponent's attack.
Every time you try to parry an incoming attack in this way (whether succesful or not), you take a -1 cumulative penality on attack rolls on your next turn.




Here it is.
Now I'd like to know from you guys what do you think about this stance, wheter is balanced or not for its level (it's for a 25+ level character) and if the penality is acceptable.
Thanks!


P.S.

Awesome, I got a popularity bump. Go me.
Anyway, I heard of a system The Demented One was working on a while ago before he become addicted to Exalted. The system was basically a whole new set of disciplines for epic levels that had little to do with the IL 1-20 maneuvers you get. I don't know if he's done ANY work on it since he mentioned it to me, but if he never does I'll probably take up the mantle and do it myself.

Thanks for the information and the interest, Blackleaf :smallsmile:.
I've read many works written by The Demented One and I'm very curious about this whole new system.
If you and The Demented One would like to contribute to this thread, it'd great :smallwink:.

P.P.S.
Holy s**t, Blackleaf, you are the one who wrote the Martial Adept Epic Progression... awesome... my sincerly compliments :smallcool:!

[Night-breeze]

Gee, epic maneuvers. Ain't I lucky :smallsigh: :smallamused:

[HaZaRD]

Gee, epic maneuvers. Ain't I lucky :smallsigh: :smallamused:

Ahahahahahaha... That's my DM, guys :smallbiggrin:

[Night-breeze]

That said, just my two cents (although I am no expert on the tome of battle in any kind of way: I've only build a character/npc out of it 4-5 times, just to see how the system works. I quite like it, but it would be too much of an effort for me to produce more than 2-3 NPCs out of it).

In any case, I like the feat+minimum ranks requisite. I would like it to be a little bit more specialized in the different schools (jump/concentration and so on instead of martial lore), but those are minor tidbits. Also, perhaps a temporary decrease of strength/dexterity because of fatigue?

Anyway, keep in mind that the party is spread from level 20 to level 22. I don't see them jumping over to level 24-25 in the near future, so the only things needed right now are maneuvers of comparable power. If necessary, we could write out a generic system when things advance.

ps:
Magnificant Descent of the Sun Tiger is just too cool. (or hot, in this case)

[The Rose Dragon]

You should have converted to Exalted if you were going to mess around with epic martial arts. :smalltongue:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You should have converted to Exalted if you were going to mess around with epic martial arts. :smalltongue:

Trust me...I know. However, as it's still D&D, I'm stealing some naming conventions. I mean, Magnificent Descent of the Sun Tiger? You can't tell me that doesn't belong in an Exalted book. :smallbiggrin:

[HaZaRD]

HE HAS SPOKEN!!!

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

All kidding aside, the Discipline Skill+Feat requirment seems fine to me too, while I don't find the fatigue penalty suitable (I like Djiin's Recharge Time or a similar temporal limitation like "only once per encounter").
I know start converting the few Maneuvers I've done around these new specs and I'll post them ASAP.
If you guys posted some ideas for Manuvers with a Skill Requirments between 24-26 (the range of level where I'm playing, as my DM pointed out), I'd be very helpful.
Thanks!

P.S.
What's this "Exalted" you guys are talking about?:smallconfused:

[The Rose Dragon]

Look here and be enlightened. (http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?filters=0_0_2100_1820)

It is a game where your kung fu skills make you more powerful than a god (it happens). Where you defeat mountain-sized behemoths, command hundreds of soldiers who happen to be less powerful than your world-shattering artifact you found lying around and challenge the heavens themselves to be better by simply existing.

And that is just starting characters.

[Night-breeze]

Nooo, please no! The only that scares me more than my group finding about Exalted is...well, there is nothing that scares me more, actually. :smalleek:

[lade5]

Epic maneuvers beyond , level 9 can be the quintessential aspect of the fighting style, that which defines all it represents( and should include a stance and an attack form).

[Barbarian MD]

Here's the Demented One's system:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134459&highlight=Epic+discipline+heavenly

It's pretty sweet, but if you're not allowed epic spells, I can't imagine allowing this... (well, I might, but most DMs that bar epic casting wouldn't)