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raptor1056
2009-05-23, 02:25 PM
Sorry if this has already been brought up somewhere, as I'm relatively new to these forums. Anywho, I was interested in making some sort of combat-oriented character who fought with a dagger or two. Why? Because it would be badass. The ideal character would be lightly armored, and sort of stealthy, but not really a skill monkey. Additionally, the character should not suck. Anybody know of any builds that fit my unreasonably demanding stipulations? Thanks, y'all.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-23, 02:30 PM
You can use the Sneak Attack Fighter and Thug fighter alternate class features (both are in the SRD) to do this pretty easily.
Or, if you have Tome of Battle, you can make a very effective character who does this using Swordsage, focused on Shadow Blade I mean Shadow Hand maneuvers. Though the Shadow Blade feat (adds DEX to damage) is very useful.

RTGoodman
2009-05-23, 02:33 PM
There are tons of ways to go about it, some better than other. The basic thing is, with your small damage die, you'll probably want to focus on (1) getting lots of attacks and (2) dealing extra damage somehow. You'll almost certainly want Weapon Finesse for Dex to attack rolls.

-Fighter 2-4/Rogue 16-18 - Pretty basic, not particularly optimized, but gets the point across. Very easy and Core, though. You could sub in Ranger levels to get TWF for free, plus some other stuff, if you wanted.

-Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 17 - Take Daring Outlaw to stack Rogue and Swash levels for Sneak Attack and a few other things, plus you get a BAB and HP boost, Weapon Finesse for free, AND Int to damage rolls.

-Some kind of Rogue/Fighter/Daggermaster/Master Thrower build - I don't know any specifics, but that's a lot of Dagger focus.

-Swordsage (from Tome of Battle) - Using the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines, you'll be able to TWF with daggers and still be awesome.

Rhiannon87
2009-05-23, 02:35 PM
Invisible blade! Five level PrC in Complete Warrior. It's designed for stealthy rogues/fighters, and focuses on daggers, sneak attack damage, and makes feinting in combat useful. You want a high DEX and a high INT (if you're unarmored, your get to add your INT bonus to your AC). It's a lot of fun. You could get into it with five levels of rogue, or you could do a rogue/fighter combination.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-05-23, 02:35 PM
I had a character like this in a previous campaign. He took levels in rogue and fighter equally, and occasionally wielded a whip in his offhand for tripping from afar. It worked out alright, though the build was nothing special, just standard stuff and a couple flaws to get in combat expertise and improved trip along with the other standard feats.

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-23, 02:36 PM
Tiger Claw focused swordsage or warblade.

raptor1056
2009-05-23, 02:38 PM
Cool stuff! I had a cool idea: I could take a level in monk for Wis bonus to AC and such, then rogue 3, Fighter 2, Invisible Blade 5, then other stuff. Looks like it could work.

Keld Denar
2009-05-23, 02:43 PM
Welcome to the forums!

If you are asking for help, it usually helps if you are more specific and include as much info as possible.

What type of game are you running? I'm assuming D&D 3.5.

What books do you have available? This is a big one, since we can suggest Tome of Battle all day long, but if you don't have Tome of Battle, its not very helpful.

What level are you starting at? Anticipate ending at? This is another big one. Some concepts are weak early, but can power at certain level breaks. Some are strong early, and fade out as other abilities eclipse them. Some are strong all the way through. Not much point in planning a level 20 build, if the character will only be played from 1-4.

What kind of setting is it? Core? FR? Ebberon? Can you use cross-setting rulebooks? Is it high-magic, low-magic, standard-magic? This affects build and equipment goals.

Like with most things in life, you get out what you put in. Give us more info, and we'll help you out as much as we can!

WELCOME!

SurlySeraph
2009-05-23, 02:45 PM
Cool stuff! I had a cool idea: I could take a level in monk for Wis bonus to AC and such, then rogue 3, Fighter 2, Invisible Blade 5, then other stuff. Looks like it could work.

If you do take a level in Monk, it would be smart to take the Carmendine Monk feat, which lets you use INT instead of WIS for most of your Monk class features. Since you also need good INT for Invisible Blade, this lets you focus on fewer stats. DEX, CON, and INT should be your priorities, probably in that order.

raptor1056
2009-05-23, 02:59 PM
Welcome to the forums!

If you are asking for help, it usually helps if you are more specific and include as much info as possible.

What type of game are you running? I'm assuming D&D 3.5.

What books do you have available? This is a big one, since we can suggest Tome of Battle all day long, but if you don't have Tome of Battle, its not very helpful.

What level are you starting at? Anticipate ending at? This is another big one. Some concepts are weak early, but can power at certain level breaks. Some are strong early, and fade out as other abilities eclipse them. Some are strong all the way through. Not much point in planning a level 20 build, if the character will only be played from 1-4.

What kind of setting is it? Core? FR? Ebberon? Can you use cross-setting rulebooks? Is it high-magic, low-magic, standard-magic? This affects build and equipment goals.

Like with most things in life, you get out what you put in. Give us more info, and we'll help you out as much as we can!

WELCOME!

Thanks! The game is 3.5. As for books, I have cores, Complete Warrior, Savage Species, Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics, Draconomicon, and Faerun. It's a relatively low-magic world, and cross-setting rulebooks are allowed. The game is largely Western-themed, with the (very) notable exception of the exemption of firearms.
This build will probably see play all the way up to level 20, from as low as 1, so builds that are strong all the way across the level spectrum would be ideal. The build I'm currently looking at goes: Swashbuckler 3/ fighter 2/ invisible blade 5/ duelist 7/ shadowdancer 3. Does this look alright?
EDIT: Forgot to mention, I'll be playing a human.

Benejeseret
2009-05-23, 04:06 PM
A dagger and a buckler would fit well thematically and mechanically.

The buckler grants shield bonus and can be enchanted to give the extra body slot and bonuses, but keeps you off hand free.

This then allows fighting feats such as Einhander, Deflect Arrows, and Disarm.

Rogue levels so stack well with dagger builds, but do not underestimate how quickly static bonuses stack up. Weapon specialization/mastery/Str/enhancements are added all the time and doubled on crits (unlike sneak att).

Hurling Charge - throw a weapon plus charge attack, combines with some Master Thrower abilities quite well. Trip shot/Palm throw/Two with one blow//Hurling Charge could Damage AND trip (special Dex based trip) 4 opponents that you then still get to jump on and melee stab all in one round.

imp_fireball
2009-05-23, 05:18 PM
I'd push the GM for houserules and time to carefully examine each and every one of them.

One houserule I made was that a DC 30 tumble check can allow you to move base speed as a swift action (but not avoid AoO, which would add a lot to the DC), which could be nicely exploitable at high levels. Most of the time, failure would cause you to fall prone either at your space or at a space of GM discretion (usually your space unless the GM is nice).

Berserk Monk
2009-05-23, 06:37 PM
Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior)

It's a good class. Just make sure to play this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6f5r64F-I) whenever your character goes into combat.

#Raptor
2009-05-23, 08:20 PM
There are tons of ways to go about it, some better than other. The basic thing is, with your small damage die, you'll probably want to focus on (1) getting lots of attacks and (2) dealing extra damage somehow. You'll almost certainly want Weapon Finesse for Dex to attack rolls.

-Fighter 2-4/Rogue 16-18 - Pretty basic, not particularly optimized, but gets the point across. Very easy and Core, though. You could sub in Ranger levels to get TWF for free, plus some other stuff, if you wanted.

-Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 17 - Take Daring Outlaw to stack Rogue and Swash levels for Sneak Attack and a few other things, plus you get a BAB and HP boost, Weapon Finesse for free, AND Int to damage rolls.

I'm a fan of the secound build, though if you take 3 levels of Swashbuckler, you should take another level of fighter (core option) or barbarian (complete champion option, lion totem barbarian for pounce) too, to make it a Rogue 16 build.

Taking 16 levels of rogue and 4 levels of full-bab classes gives you 16 BAB at level 20 and therefore 4 attacks, compared to the final 3 attacks a rogue 17-20 build gets at level 20.

Oh, and if you can somehow get your hands on the Magic Item Compendium, there are weapon augment crystals in there that let you sneak attack constructs and undead (though there still isnt any way to SA plants and oozes, afaik - but constructs and especially undead come up way more often anyway).

And if you can get your hands on Races of the Wild - a 2 level dip of Champion of Corellon Larethian adds your Int to damage (not as a replacement for anything, but in addition!). The con: You've got to be a nonevil elf. That isn't a problem though, since elfes (and even more so, gray elves) make good rogues.

I know, you don't have either of those books - but maybe someone from your group has them.

Talya
2009-05-23, 08:23 PM
Since you have CW, take at least one level of swashbuckler, as many as three if your INT score is decent.

Works well with all the other suggestions.

Necrus Philius
2009-05-24, 01:52 AM
Would you be able to make a Knife fighter similar to Jarlaxle in the Drizzt series? What would a character who throws daggers, uses alot of magic items and fights in melee like a swashbuckler layout be like? Just curious really

Hat-Trick
2009-05-24, 02:26 AM
Swashbuckler/Rogue/Master Thrower/Invisible Blade(optional)

Lorn
2009-05-24, 05:11 AM
Just a thought - perhaps add some grappling ability in? Using a knife, you're missing a LOT out on range and you really cannot parry effectively with one for the most part. A good swordstroke would go straight past it.

If nothing else, try and get your DM to add some sort of houserule to allow you to grab shields and pull them away, or slap away other weapons (spears, other knives, NOT swords or axes) to add a little more realism, and possibly to make the build a little better. Unsure if there's a feat or something for this - I only have a basic understanding of the rules, sadly.

Calmar
2009-05-24, 05:17 AM
There is a feat called Knife Fighter in Player's Guide to Faerūn that allows you to use a light weapon in a grapple.

Bulwer
2009-05-24, 07:03 AM
I dunno: how often does anyone ever actually grapple in an actual tabletop game? I know that in any game I've ever been in, it'd take about 20 minutes from "I try to grapple it" to the end of that turn, counting all the time looking up rules and fiddling with modifiers and taking attacks of opportunity where they're due and all that.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 09:13 AM
Eh, as long as everyone has their grapple modifiers written down before things go down, its not an issue. And grapple mods are USUALLY just BAB + size + str unless the character is a dedicated grappler, in which case they SHOULD have their bonus calculated.

Then its simple:

Touch attack
AoO (or not with a feat)
Opposed roll

Congratz, you are grappling.

From there, you usually pin (opposed grapple), knock your opponent prone (form of movement, so...opposed grapple), squeeze to do damage, (yup, opposed grapple), and then wait for your opponent to try to escape (hmmmmm...opposed grapple!).

Other than that, most cases you won't threaten anyone other than the person you grapple, and you lose your dex against anyone outside of the grapple. Thats pretty common sense.

raptor1056
2009-05-24, 12:16 PM
The grappler idea is actually a really cool one, and has a gritty flavor that I like. I shall look up that Knife Fighter feat. If I'm going to be grappling, I feel like monk levels might help the character along, which calls for the Carmendine Monk feat. I feel like this guy shouldn't be as underpowered as he seems, as we're going to be in a pirate themed campaign (read as "heavy armor is a no.") My DM and I have also been talking about a Knife-themed Monk variant.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 12:23 PM
If you are gonna go with a monk style grappler, I'd HIGHLY suggest you blend it with Psychic Warrior using the feat Tashalatora (from Secrets of Sarlona). It combines one manifesting class with your monk levels to determine the value of your Flurry progression, Unarmed Strike damage, and AC bonus. Then take 2 levels of monk and as many levels of PsyWar as you can get, and you'll be able to Expansion yourself up nice and big and squeeze the bagebus out of people, or pin them down and stab them to death, or both.

Set
2009-05-24, 01:59 PM
The Shelzari Knife-Fighter PrC from Shelzar: City of Sin (Sword & Sworcery) might have some neat stuff for this sort of character, but the Swashbuckler / Rogue / Invisible Blade (and maybe Master Thrower) definitely sounds like the best core selection to use for a pure stabby-stab.

If I was going to focus on a Grapple-and-damage specialist, I'd just go with a Monk and skip the dagger completely (although a Monk / Rogue, able to Sneak Attack a grappled foe who is denied their Dex bonus to AC might be fun, but, even then, a dagger is surplus to the requirements, since the Monk will be doing more damage with his unarmed attacks, and doesn't need to buy that special feat that allows him to use light weapons in a grapple...).