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View Full Version : New Base Class- Serpents tongue- Coments Welcome!



kanachi
2006-07-23, 07:56 PM
A poison useing base class intended for use in my complete Poisoner rules i hope to ultimatly compile, see what you think :)

The Serpents Tongue

Description

Poisons are among some of natures most potent weapons. For most humanoids however, the brewing of effective poisons is a long and tedious process. A crafter must first collect a vast array of necessary (and often rare) ingredients, then expend a considerable period of time and concentration in order to successfully brew them together. Such laboured workmanship, though undoubtedly skilled, pales in comparison to natures potent and naturally reproductive poisons.

A serpents tongue aspires to match natures ability to reproduce such poisons and over time has learnt to summon and utilise poisons at a natural weapon which they can use for both defence and attack.

Adventures

Like sorcerers most who follow the path of the serpents tongue are born not trained. In another walk of life many may well have been sorcerers themselves. Those of the serpents tongue are drawn to adventure either due to a desire for fame and recognition or as an opportunity to further test and hone their skills. They are less likely to serve a high moral course and may instead seek a life of adventure through a desire for vengeance against those who have wronged them personally.

Characteristics

Serpents tongue members are naturally suspicious and to those around them can often seem twitchy and unpredictable. They often have swift minds, a natural cunning and a strange (even disturbing) charm that attracts and revolts in equal measure. They enjoy crafting complex schemes and often pull strings upon many hidden motivations in order to ultimately achieve their often complex goals.

Alignment

No single serpents tongue represents this loosely linked organisation of individuals. Few are truly good in nature as they often value their own benefit and protection above that of others. However it would be unfair to also judge them as evil as though selfish few are willing to harm others without need or purpose, they can be quite vindictive though and should rarely (if ever) be crossed.

Naturally a little unhinged in mentality those of the serpents tongue tend to flutter between law and chaos with great regularity. Many often act in an entirely rational and logical manor to achieve illogical goals or appear chaotic to the point of insanity when in fact their madness does indeed mask a great hidden logic.

Religion

Serpents tongue tend not to hold much stock in god or their action though they do indeed fear or despise them all equally in measure for having such great power and wasting it on scheme they often view as petty. Some serpents tongue member follow Oldammara or Vecna but often lack any great conviction to their causes.

Background

The backgrounds of those who follow the path of the serpents tongue are wide, complex and more often than not highly secretive. Several famous serpents tongue members come from wealthy families or have at some point achieve wealth through their scheming. Many are loners and are likely driven to be suspicious of those around them though some great betrayal in their past.

No two serpents tongue members are the same and their pasts and reasoning for acting the way they do is almost without limitation.

Races

Though originally the produce of a mergence between elven druid and monk orders (who would later become the serpents tongue) few elves of social caste follow the path of the serpents tongue, those of a more wild nature are commonly linked however. In modern times humans have become the most common practitioners as their adaptability suits the class well. Dwarfs rarely even associate with the order which they view as dishonourable or even criminal. Though unlikely half-orc, Halfling and gnome members of the serpents tongue are not unheard of.

Other Classes

Serpents tongue members are naturally suspicious especially so of those closest to them, thus any information they acquire they dispense in drips and only when necessary.

The rouge and bards cunning minds while respected by the serpents tongue will likely be treated with the most suspicion as they pose the greatest threat to their greater schemes.

Monks and serpents tongue despise one another at the best of times as they represent opposite ends of the same spectrum. Rangers and druids are often regarded as possible allies as their knowledge of nature and its potential power appeals to the serpents tongue.

Wizards are useful for their intellect and knowledge of issues the serpents tongue may wish to explore and often lack enough cunning to view the serpents tongues hunger for information as anything more than studiousness.

Fighters and barbarians are commonly befriended by serpents tongues who view them as useful underlings who can be thrown into combat to better aid the Serpents tongues abilities.

Of all the classes it’s the sorcerer who is most closely akin to the serpents tongues mind and the two often share a neutral and unexplained trust for one another. A serpents tongue will often seek a sorcerers council (and visa versa) as both view the other as a potential mirror for their own thoughts.

Those rare few who truly win a serpents tongue heart will have a fanatically loyal companion willing to put aside their own personal safety or even the realisation of their masterful schemes (which serpents tongues cherish beyond all else).

Role

The unorthodox fighting style of the serpents tongue requires a good deal of mobility to get them into the right location long enough to deliver their deadly craft. With the right selection of feats a serpents tongue can greatly weaken a large number of combatants and often acts as a cunning counter fighter whose able to capitalise on any openings they find.

Class skills:

A serpents tongue’s class skills (and the key abilities for each) are Balance (Dex*), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (poison), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex*), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex*), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str*), knowledge (Nature), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex*), Search (Int), Slight of Hand (Dex*), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str*), Tumble (Dex*), Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

{table]

-LEVEL--BAB--FORT--REF--WILL--AC BONUS--SPECIAL--SUMMONED POISON-
1st+0+2+2+0+0Poison Use, Unarmed Strike, Summoned Poison 200gp
2nd+1+3+3+0+0Uncanny Dodge, Serpents Charm 200gp
3rd+2+3+3+0+0Spit Poison (Standard Action), Potency (+2) 300gp
4th+3+4+4+0+0Evasion, Fast Movement (+10 Feet) 300gp
5th+3+4+4+1+1infravision (30ft), Vipers Strike (+2) 300gp
6th+4+5+5+1+1Acrobatics (+2), Kip Up 400gp
7th+5+5+5+1+1Improved Poison Use, Neutralize Poison 400gp
8th+6/+1 +6+6+1+1Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spit Poison (Move Action), Vipers Skrike (+4) 400gp
9th+6/+1 +6+6+1+1Venom Immunity, Heart Of Poison 500gp
10th+7/+2 +7+7+2+2Potency (+4), Improved Evasion 500gp
11th+8/+3 +7+7+2+2Serpents Dance (Once per day), Vipers Strike (+6) 500gp
12th+9/+4 +8+8+2+2Acrobatics (+4), Bonus Feat 600gp
13th+9/+4 +8+8+2+2Spit Poison (Swift Action) 600gp
14th+10/+5 +9+9+2+2infravision (60ft), Vipers Strike (+8 ) 600gp
15th+11/+6/+1 +9+9+3+3Bonus Feat 700gp
16th+12/+7/+2 +10+10+3+3Fast Movement (+20 Feet) 700gp
17th+12/+7/+2 +10+10+3+3Vipers Strike (+10), Potency (+6) 700gp
18th+13/+8/+3 +11+11+3+3Acrobatics (+6), Bonus Feat 800gp
19th+14/+9/+4 +11+11+3+3Serpents Dance (Twice Per Day, No Dex AC Grapple Loss) 800gp
20th+15/+10/+5 +12+12+4+4Dominate Person, Vipers Strike (See Bellow) 800gp

[/table]

Weapon an Armour Proficiencies:

The serpents tongue is proficient with certain basic peasant weapons and some special weapons that form part of their training. The weapons with which the serpents tongue are proficient are club, crossbow (light, heavy or hand), dagger, dagger (punching), blowgun (all), gauntlet, gauntlet (spiked), handaxe, javelin, kama, sai, shuriken, siangham, sickle, sling, talons, and whip.

Serpents tongues are not proficient with any armour or shields which they find restrictive and cumbersome. A serpents tongue may later opt to training the use of light armour but will loose her AC bonuses.

AC Bonus (Ex):

As serpents tongue members continue to gain mastery of their unorthodox abilities their constant exposure to potent poisons gradually begins to change them physically. They gain a tougher more resilient layering of skin, which later begins to form into a tightly knit layer of scales. In some unusual cases this layer of scales forms underneath their natural (original) skin, thus appearance alone cant always be relied upon to successfully determine if an individual follows the path of the serpents tongue.

The AC bonus provided on the table shows the serpents tongues progression toward this more serpentine quality. The AC bonus acts as a natural armour bonus.

Poison Use (Ex):

A serpents tongue never risks accidentally poisoning herself when applying poisons to a weapon.

Summon Poison (Su):

A serpents tongue may summon a number of poisons per day equal in market value to the figure given in the classes main progression table (see above). This figure can be divided up however the serpents tongue sees fit, either as a single potent poison or as a number of lesser poisons.

Summoning a poison is a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once summoned a poison is instantly applied in one of three ways (selectable by the serpents tongue) and may not be summoned for any other purpose. The type of poison that can be summoned is dependent upon the location on the serpents tongue’s body that the poison is to be applied to.

At 1st level and each level there after the serpents tong may apply contact or injury poisons that have been summoned to their hands, gloves, gauntlets or talons (see Unarmed Strike bellow).

Upon reaching 3rd level the serpents tongue may apply contact or inhaled poison to their mouth which may then be spat or breathed at their opponents (see Spit Poison bellow).

Once a serpents tongue has attained 9th level they may apply an ingested poison directly to their bloodstream where it can retaliate against any attacks their opponents make upon them (see Heart of Poison bellow).

Summoned poison themselves can’t be dispelled or disrupted however, the ability to conjure poison will not function in areas where magic itself would not normally do so (such as within an anti-magic field). Summoned poisons fade 8 hours after their application, regardless of the location they were summoned to.

Unarmed Strike (Ex):

Practitioners of the unorthodox form martial arts employed by the serpents tongue are highly trained in fighting when unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level, a serpents tongue gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A serpents tong’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means a serpents tongue may even make unarmed strikes when her hands are full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a serpents tongue when striking unarmed. A serpents tongue may thus apply her full strength bonus on damage roll for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a serpents tongue’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal non-lethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or non-lethal damage while grappling (see page 156 of the Players Handbook).

A serpents tongue’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).

A serpents tongue also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would (as shown on Table 3-10: The monk, found on page 40 of the Players Handbook). A small serpents tongue deals less damage while a large serpents tong deals more (see table 3-11: Small or Large Monk, found page 41 of the Players Handbook).

In addition a Serpents tongue may apply injury or even contact poison to their hands, gloves or talons without risk to themselves.

A serpents tongue may apply poisons to their hands and thus use their hands as though they were poisoned weapons. A successful strike from an empty hand, glove or talon that is used to cause lethal damage may activate the effects of any applied injury poison. Should the applied poison be a contact poison its effects may be activated even when dealing non-lethal damage.

Should the serpents tongue be unable to strike an opponent with empty hands or find themselves in a position where they are unable to perform an unarmed strike using their hands any applied poisons will remain inactive.

A successful opposed grapple check may also activate a poison applied in this manor.

For all other purposes the serpents tongue’s unarmed strike is considered similar to that of a monk (see page 40 of the Players Handbook).

Serpents Charm (Ex):

Serpents tongues are naturally suspicious of others however they themselves are often able to command and sway the minds of those less cunning to fit their own schemes. At second level and beyond a serpents tongue gains a bonus to all bluff, intimidate sense motive and gather information checks equel to half the class level (rounded down). Certain creatures or individuals of great cunning may well see though a serpents tongue’s deception and at the DM’s descretion may negate this bonus.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

Starting at 2nd level, a serpents tongue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However she will still loose her dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a serpents tongue already has Uncanny Dodge from a different class (a rogue or barbarian, for example), she automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge (see bellow) instead.

Potency (Ex):

At 3rd level a serpents tongue’s summoned poisons gain a bonus of +2 to the resistance DC required to shrug off their effects. This Bonus increases to +4 at 10th level and +6 at 17th level.

Unlike a Blight Arrow Sniper’s potency ability this only effects the serpents tong’s summoned poisons and not poisons the she crafts.

Spit Poison (Ex):

After attaining 3rd level a serpents tongue gains the ability to project either Contact or Inhaled poison at a single target within 10 feet as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This attack is made as a ranged touch attack. The serpents tongue much have a clear line of sight to her target.

Poison may be summoned into her mouth using the Summoned Poison ability (see above), inhaled poisons summoned in this manor are considered to cost half there normal value. A poison may also be applied to her mouth as though it were any other weapon.

At 8th level spitting poison requires only a move action and at 15th level it improves once again, requiring a swift action only.

Evasion (Ex):

At 4th level and higher, a serpents tongue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball), she instead takes no damage. Evasion can only be used if the serpents tongue is wearing light or no armour. A helpless serpents tongue (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Fast movement (Ex):

At 4th level, a serpents tongue gains a +10 feet enchantment bonus to her base land speed. At 16th level this bonus increases to +20 feet. A serpents tongue loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armour or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Improved grapple (Ex):

At 5th level the serpents tongue becomes a highly skilled grappler and is considered to have the Improved Grapple feat.

Viper Strike (Ex):

Those of the serpents tongue are trained beyond peer to observe and exploit the errors made by their opponents. With blurring speed and fine precision a serpents tong will capitalise viciously upon any opportunities without hesitation. Starting at 5th level a serpents tongue will gain a +2 bonus to all attack of opportunity, this bonus also improves by 2 for every three levels thereafter (+4 at 8th, +6 at 11th, +6 at 14th and +10 at 17th level).

In addition at 20th level the serpents tongue becomes capable of threatening those around them in situations where others ordinarily would not. A serpents tong always threatens squares at a 5 foot range even when grappled or under any other effect that does not involve complete immobilisation (at the DM’s discretion).

A serpents tongue wearing medium or heavy armour or carrying a heavy load looses this ability.

Acrobatics (Ex):

Starting at 6th level, a serpents tongue gains a +2 bonus to climb, jump, and tumble checks. This Bonus increases to +4 at 12th level and +6 at 18th level.

Kip Up (Ex):

A serpents tongue can stand up from a prone position as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability works only if the serpents tongue wears light armour and carries no more than a light load.

Improved Poison Use (Ex):

Starting at 7th level, a serpents tongue can apply poison to a weapon (including hands, mouth and bloodstream) as a move action. Normally, applying a poison is a standard action, like applying oil.

Neutralize Poison (Sp):

Upon reaching 7th level the serpents tongue gains he ability to cast the Neutralize Poison spell once per day (upon herself only) as though she were a druid of the same level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

A serpents tongue of 8th level of higher can no longer be flanked; she can react to opponents on both opposite sides of her as easily as she can react to a single attacker. This defence denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the rogue has at least four more levels in rouge than serpents tongue has in her own class.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class (such as a rogue, page 50 of the Players Handbook) the two classes stack when working out the total level of rogue required to flank the character.

Heart of Poison (Ex):

At 9th level the serpents tongue has become so resilient to the effects of toxins that she is able to consume them and thus make her bloodstream itself poisonous. As a standard action the serpents tongue may consume an Ingestion poison. All creatures that bike the serpents tongue within the next 8 hours will activate the poison and must resist its effects.

Any other form of attack or action made against the serpents tongue that involves an individual somehow ingesting any of the serpents tongues blood will also trigger the poison.

Unlike other poisons, those used by the serpents tongue in this manor last for the entire 8 hours and will effect all who trigger it within that time.

The Poison Summoning ability (see above) can place poisons directly into the serpents tongue’s bloodstream.

Venom Immunity (Ex):

At 9th level the serpents tongue gains immunity to all poisons (see the Druid class ability, page 37 of the Players Handbook).

Improved Evasion (Ex):

Starting at 10th level, the serpents tongue ability to successfully dodge both magical and unusual attacks has greatly improved. This ability works like evasion, except that while a serpents tongue still takes no damage on a successful reflex saving throw against attacks such as a dragon’s breath weapon or a fireball, henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless serpents tongue (such as one who is bound, or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Serpents Dance (Su):

At 11th level and beyond the serpents tongue has learned to mimic the snakes ability to shed a false layer of skin in order to evade capture or restriction. Though they themselves don’t in fact shed any skin they can temporarily twist and manipulate their bodies in a manor that defies normal physical manipulation. Once per day the serpents tongue may use this ability to break free from a grapple, move through a threatened square, avoid a single attack of opportunity or gain a +20 bonus to a single escape artist check. At 19th level the Serpents tongue may perform this ability twice per day and in addition no longer looses their dex bonus to AC whilst grappling.

This ability is a free action that may be used as an instant action. This ability works only if the serpents tongue wears light armour and carries no more than a light load.

Bonus Feats:

At 12th, 15th and 18th level the serpents tongue gains a bonus feat, which must be selected from the following list: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Armour Proficiency (light), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Intuition, Combat reflexes, Danger Sense, Deceitful, Deflect Arrows, Deft Hands, Deft Opportunist, Deft Strike, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Hear the Unseen, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Swimming, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Lightning reflexes, Mobility, Persuasive, Poison Application, Quick Draw, Quicken Poison, Quick reconnoitre, Run, Scholar of Poisons, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Whirlwind Attack.

The serpents tongue must still meet all the prerequisites for the feat (Some of the feats listed above come from the Complete Adventurer, the majority can be found in the Players Handbook).

Constrict (Ex):

At 14th level and beyond the serpents tongue has mastered the art of restricting her opponent’s movement whilst in grappling. Once successfully within a grapple the serpents tongue mat add twice their strength bonus to all grapple checks against a single opponent of equal or less size.

Even those who have mastered the art of escape struggle to find freedom against a grappling serpents tongue and take a penalty to the DC of any escape artist checks they make (the penalty is equal to serpents tongs class level).

Dominate Person (Sp):

Upon finally reaching 20th level the serpents tongue is able to gain dominion over a humanoids mind with a mere glance. Once per day the serpents tongue may target an individual that they have a clear line of sight to as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This target is effected as though the dominate person spell had been cast upon them, treat the serpents tongue as though she were a wizard of the same level for the purposes of this ability.

New equipment

Talons

Bearing a close resemblance to cats claws talons are retractable metal claws that are easily concealed until a particular muscle movement triggers their activation. When hidden correctly talons can easily slip under the radar of any authorities searching for weapons. Talons a regarded as a weapon of choice by assassins and serpents tongue members alike, they are also popular among thieves.

Cost: 50gp
Damage (small): 1d4
Damage (medium): 1d6
Critical: 18-20/x2
Range Increment: -
Weight: 1lb
Type: Piercing or slashing

Notes: Your opponent can’t use a disarm action to disarm you of talons. The cost and weight given above are for a single set of talons (one hand). An attack with a talon is considered an unarmed attack. May be used to assist in climbing or hanging from a surface and offers a +2 competency bonus to such checks.

AmberVael
2006-07-23, 08:23 PM
Yikes. The counter strike ability is crazy. Tone it down a lot, or remove it entirely.
The cast off skin ability is... odd... In fact, though the ability seems balanced enough, it makes very little logical sense. How will shedding your skin under your armor help very much? I could picture a (shudder) nude person pulling it off (har har!), but a clothed and/or armored person? No. Personally, I would change it to a permanent +4/+2 bonus and call it something like "Slippery as a Snake" except far less stupid sounding than that. Also, it is a let down for a level 19 ability. Make the 12th level ability or something.
Put Heart of Poison at a bit higher level.
Dominate Person is a great ability for a 'Snake Class,' but it comes out of nowhere. They have no charm or hypnotizing abilities before level 20, so it seems odd to be able to control people as their best ability when they have nothing else like it. Give them bluff bonuses or the ability to cast hypnotize or charm person. However, if you do that, the class will become overpowered (again). Reduce or remove other abilities, or replace Dominate Person.

Cool flavor, nice poison abilities, but needs work.

kanachi
2006-07-26, 05:57 AM
Thanks for your review of the class :)

I spent a few days thinking about what you said and decided to have a pritty large re-work of the class. See what you think now :)

Tengu
2006-07-26, 06:56 AM
Tong? I think you meant tongue?

wippit
2006-07-26, 07:05 AM
You should drop the 'constrictor' parts of the class, concentrate on it being more like a viper. So you would lose improved grapple, constrict, and the like. It is of note that you get improved grapple for free, and then it appears on your list of bonuis feats.

The class definitely needs craft (poison) and knowledge (nature) as a class skill.

Change the bonus AC from a monk-like bonus to a natural AC bonus, and the character would actually grow scales over time to reflect this.

Give the character some old-school infravision at 5th level, ability to see heat generated by creatures. Undead, constructs, plants and incorporeal creatures can't be seen in this way. Range 30ft at 5th level, 60ft at 10th level.

Weapons: drop the staff, drop the sap, add the blowgun.

kanachi
2006-07-26, 07:14 AM
Tong? I think you meant tongue?

Crap, yes i do. I hate being dyslexic.

The Glyphstone
2006-07-26, 07:18 AM
Cool class.

I think it might have meant to be "tongue"...but "tong" is so much funnier....a real terror at barbecue cookouts....fear the Serpent Tongs! :D

Peregrine
2006-07-26, 09:23 AM
Heh, I did suspect it was meant to be 'tongue'... but then I also thought it might have been meant in the 'Chinese secret society' sense, also used of the assassin clan in the Empire trilogy by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts.

AmberVael
2006-07-26, 10:08 AM
You should drop the 'constrictor' parts of the class, concentrate on it being more like a viper. So you would lose improved grapple, constrict, and the like. It is of note that you get improved grapple for free, and then it appears on your list of bonuis feats.

The class definitely needs craft (poison) and knowledge (nature) as a class skill.

Change the bonus AC from a monk-like bonus to a natural AC bonus, and the character would actually grow scales over time to reflect this.

All of these are extremely good suggestions, and I particularly like the natural armor bonus.

Upon reaching 7th level the serpents tong gains he ability to cast the Neutralize Poison spell once per day as though she were a druid of the same level.
I think I might change this ability to only affect the serpent tongue. It would be replaced by his immunity later, I know, but it makes more sense overall (and tones down the class just a tad more, which I believe it still needs).

Also, what is the Viper's Strike ability? I see it on your overall chart, but not on any of the explanations.

Brett Wong
2006-07-26, 02:43 PM
I like this class and might actually ask to use it in a campaighn yet to come.



EDIT! OMG subliminal messaging! After i saw this class without thinking i put on the song "Poison"! \Was this intended to send subliminal messages to young people?!

kanachi
2006-07-28, 10:41 AM
You should drop the 'constrictor' parts of the class, concentrate on it being more like a viper. So you would lose improved grapple, constrict, and the like. It is of note that you get improved grapple for free, and then it appears on your list of bonuis feats.

The class definitely needs craft (poison) and knowledge (nature) as a class skill.

Change the bonus AC from a monk-like bonus to a natural AC bonus, and the character would actually grow scales over time to reflect this.

Give the character some old-school infravision at 5th level, ability to see heat generated by creatures. Undead, constructs, plants and incorporeal creatures can't be seen in this way. Range 30ft at 5th level, 60ft at 10th level.

Weapons: drop the staff, drop the sap, add the blowgun.




Some really good ideas here! I’ve implemented them all as I agree with you :)

I did however allow the growing of scales to be effectively grown beneath the characters traditional skin, as a large part of the class is its seductive quality and ability to manipulate others (which may prove difficult or unbelievable if the character was considered to be visibly changing into a snake). The choice ultimately will fall to the player/dm on if they would like this to visibly change the appearance of the serpents tongue.

I also moved your recommended 60ft infravision to 14th level rather than 10th. This was mainly due to the fact that the character otherwise looked rather weak at 14th level and 10th level has at least already got some balls to it.

Thanks loads for all your ideas once again!!

kanachi
2006-07-28, 10:46 AM
I think I might change this ability to only affect the serpent tongue. It would be replaced by his immunity later, I know, but it makes more sense overall (and tones down the class just a tad more, which I believe it still needs).

Also, what is the Viper's Strike ability? I see it on your overall chart, but not on any of the explanations.

Sorry for not posting up the vipers strike rules, I thought I had but must have pressed refresh preview and forgotten about it or something *fears for his sanity*. Anyway, I’ve added it now, so you can check it out :) basically it makes the class very good at exploiting attack of opportunity.

I’ve also taken your advice and changed the neutralise poison ability to only effect the serpents tongue themselves.

Thank you for the good ideas!

Durin_Deathless
2006-07-28, 01:22 PM
I'd make the base unarmed damage that of a small monk (use DM guide to find small monk damage) to make it alittle less uber. Its still a very powerful class.

kanachi
2006-07-28, 05:41 PM
not sure i'de want to make the damage equivilant to that of a small monk, its not really in keeping with the flavour i had for the class.

kanachi
2006-07-30, 09:05 AM
I like this class and might actually ask to use it in a campaighn yet to come.



EDIT! OMG subliminal messaging! After i saw this class without thinking i put on the song "Poison"! \Was this intended to send subliminal messages to young people?!

Hehe, really glad you like the class, get back to me and tell me how it goes if you use it :) I'll probably be using this class in my nex dnd campaign as well

More stuff reguarding poison use you might be interested in are:

New poison feats and skills

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1152794583

New Rules for poison crafting known as "Dormant Toxins"

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1152742671

Blight arrow sniper Prc

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1152566989

Coffee_Cream
2006-07-31, 08:23 AM
I like the spit poison idea a lot. It reminds me of those wrestler guys who spit green stuff at people (cant remember their names).

Summoning poisons sounds like a good idea and I like the way you can summon them onto different areas of your body (or inside your body).

I can see why you gave the class poison use and improved poison use as it certainly fits the flavour, but surely if you can summon poisons your never going to bother crafting them or applying them manually to weapons?

I also understand why you gave the class a good fort save as it obviously is very resilient to poisons, disease, toxins, ect… but fort also covers other saves beyond those that I don’t think fit the flavour of the class. Instead at first level and onward I would give the class a equivalent save against poisons and the like until the class gains immunity to poisons (at which point its not needed any more).

adriankas
2006-07-31, 09:35 AM
Serpent's Tongs
(cursed item)

This simple item looks like a simple cook's tongs used for clipping and picking up meat for serving in a barbeque or roast. There is, however, a sinister curse placed on them. Any uncooked meat which touches the steel tips of the tongs immediately becomes poisoned. Anyone who ingests meat touched by these tongs must make a fortitude save at -4 against the tong user's class level, or die. Perfect for sneaky assassins to sell to the royal cook, or plant at the vizier's grill.

:D

As for the class, looks good. I think that it would make more sense as a prestige class, but that's just me.

kanachi
2006-07-31, 12:14 PM
I wanted to make a class that concentrated on poisons from the get-go. I also think a fast, nible counter-attacking style that activly expoits others errors in their defence (attack of oppertunity) and weakens their opponents skills as apposed to their hp directly is something that is not really represented in base class form.

I think it would be great fun to play a class like this from the start... cuning, charming, manipulative and scheming. Could make for a very fun PC class to play amongst a group of straight laced friends.

Coffee_Cream
2006-08-01, 05:52 AM
Serpent's Tongs
(cursed item)

This simple item looks like a simple cook's tongs used for clipping and picking up meat for serving in a barbeque or roast. There is, however, a sinister curse placed on them. Any uncooked meat which touches the steel tips of the tongs immediately becomes poisoned. Anyone who ingests meat touched by these tongs must make a fortitude save at -4 against the tong user's class level, or die. Perfect for sneaky assassins to sell to the royal cook, or plant at the vizier's grill.

:D

As for the class, looks good. I think that it would make more sense as a prestige class, but that's just me.

lol, thats ace.

kanachi
2006-08-01, 06:41 AM
I like the spit poison idea a lot. It reminds me of those wrestler guys who spit green stuff at people (cant remember their names).

Summoning poisons sounds like a good idea and I like the way you can summon them onto different areas of your body (or inside your body).

I can see why you gave the class poison use and improved poison use as it certainly fits the flavour, but surely if you can summon poisons your never going to bother crafting them or applying them manually to weapons?

I also understand why you gave the class a good fort save as it obviously is very resilient to poisons, disease, toxins, ect… but fort also covers other saves beyond those that I don’t think fit the flavour of the class. Instead at first level and onward I would give the class a equivalent save against poisons and the like until the class gains immunity to poisons (at which point its not needed any more).


As you say the poison use and improved poison use abilities are mainly there just for flavour, but remember that a large part of the serpents tongues prowess is dependant upon its poisons. Without them the serpent is basicly a nimble but weak damage potential monk.

Secondly i think i agree with your poit reguarding poisons and fort save. What do other people think about this?

AmberVael
2006-08-01, 09:31 AM
Mmm... no. I don't think he should reduce the fort save. Monks have full in every save, and he has already reduced the will save. I think it fits the class well enough even though it isn't specifically poison resistance.

adriankas
2006-08-01, 09:41 AM
I wanted to make a class that concentrated on poisons from the get-go. I also think a fast, nible counter-attacking style that activly expoits others errors in their defence (attack of oppertunity) and weakens their opponents skills as apposed to their hp directly is something that is not really represented in base class form.

Well, it's not necessary to create a new class for every character concept. How about a rogue who uses poison? That's fast and nimble. Sure he'd risk the chances of poisoning himself until he got, say, levels of Assassin, but you could argue with the DM and ask that he get Poison Use as a bonus feat. I'm sure DMs would love to customize your character as much as you want as long as it's balanced and contributed to roleplaying.

As for counterattacks and punishing missed attacks: isn't that what combat reflexes, as a feat, represents? The openings in a combatant's defense that you can exploit after blocking their initial attacks. Combat reflexes + some strategic movement, plus some feats that I do not have the sufficient knowledge to name here, and you could easily throw together a nasty AoO based fighter. Especially if you use trip attacks in conjunction (*cough* Spiked Chain cheese *cough*)

Or how about feints? Feinting is sort of a counterattack: fooling the enemy so that they cannot defend against your attacks... in which case an Invisible Blade would be right up your alley. Or just take Improved Feint if you dislike daggers.

As for the spit poison abilities: you could ask the DM to allow you a race that can spit poison. Or even just improvise the ability. Perhaps after drinking small amounts of a certain poison for years, a character has developed an immunity to it (*cough* Princess Bride *cough*): that would be a unique facet to the character that would distinguish him from the many fighters/rogues/monks/etc. across the lands.

This is not to discourage you from making a new class, but I'm just trying to demonstrate how it's not necessary to build a new class from the ground up to create a character you want from the get go. And there are plenty of poison based PrCs out there, so that would help you flesh out your character. It sounds like a few changes could easily save you a TON of work, but hey: if you enjoy homebrewing, then go right ahead.



I think it would be great fun to play a class like this from the start... cuning, charming, manipulative and scheming. Could make for a very fun PC class to play amongst a group of straight laced friends.
See, those things aren't properties of the class, per se. They are properties of the character: the character's personality. You could play a wizard who is cunning, charming, manipulative and scheming. Or a fighter. Or a druid. It'd be more difficult to play that kind of character as a paladin or monk, but it still could be done. The thing that's cool about DnD is that you don't always have to adhere to the rules for everything.

kanachi
2006-08-01, 01:21 PM
I take your point but really by the time i've made all those adjustments (custom race, poison use discussion with dm, etc..) i might as well have gone the whole hog and make what i have done.

I understand that its not necessary to make base classes for everything but that does not mean you cant, or that doing so is without its merits. This class offers something that, while perhaps not impossible, very hard to achieve though use or combination of other classes.

I don’t really see a need to mark the process of making a base class as worthless. Ultimately if i have fun and other people are even mildly interested by it the it surely deserves a place of some kind. Its all optional rules anyway, not forcing anyone to use or even like what i make. lol

Thanks for your thoughts though, valid point.