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Garian
2009-05-24, 07:44 AM
I have always enjoyed paying all sorts of spell casters. I am finding that I constantly lack the proper number of spells to be helpful as a utility belt and in combat for any true length of time. I end up using a crossbow a lot, something no wizard should never have to do.

One of my friends suggested I play a Mystic Theurge. Looking into the psionic version of the Mystic Theurge the Cerebremancer, I can seen a why I might want to play one.
I was thinking of going wizard/druid/mystic theurge or wizard/psion/cerebremancer. I am leaning toward the mystic theurge build. Combined with a feat from complete arcane, I think, that gives my +4 (max my character level) to my caster level equivalent for determining damage, length, etc...

Is this the way to go? Is there a better way? Improving on what I have already?
Thanks

Frog Dragon
2009-05-24, 07:46 AM
Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge means you don't need to pump wis and can get away with less MAD

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 07:47 AM
Unless you're doing endurance runs, it's not worth it. You'll never get the highest level spells and powers and you can still cast only one spell per round (barring Swift Action spells).

That said, Cerebremancer should be the better one of the two since it is dependent on a single stat.

Frog Dragon
2009-05-24, 07:50 AM
So Is Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 07:54 AM
Archivists themselves require both Wisdom (for bonus spells) and Intelligence (for everything else).

Gorbash
2009-05-24, 08:03 AM
I am finding that I constantly lack the proper number of spells to be helpful as a utility belt and in combat for any true length of time. I end up using a crossbow a lot, something no wizard should never have to do.

I really can't see how's that possible, what's your build? I have a 12th lvl Transmuter and, at worst, at the end of the day I'll have a third of my daily number of spells. And that's with Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability, so that means that I burn through spells at even faster rate.

And since immitation is the sincirest form of flattery, I'll just use the Words of LogicNinja:



http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg
Don't take it. No, really. If you get the urge to take it, go play a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 for a while, in a party with a Wizard 7 and a Cleric 7.
Then cry.

Eldariel
2009-05-24, 08:16 AM
What I'd do if I just wanted more spellslots would be to play an Ultimate Magus [CMage]. Because you can get in with only one level in the spontaneous class (Practiced Spellcaster/Illumian Krau-sigil/fast progression PrC allows applying all the "lower level only"-advancements to your prepared side), it doesn't hurt you nearly as bad as Mystic Theurge, and still fills your need for extra spells.

In particular, Wizard 7/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10 is a solid pick.

Dacia Brabant
2009-05-24, 09:05 AM
LogicNinja's obviously correct about playing a Mystic Theurge when in a party with a single-class Wizard and single-class Cleric. But what about when in a party with neither a primary arcanist nor a primary divine caster?

True that the answer then is play a Wizard with a Cleric cohort or vice-versa, but not all DMs allow Leadership and if they do they will often create and control the cohort so you might as well have a DMPC at that point. Yeah there's also Archivist to get a lot of the arcane-as-domain spells in his prayerbook, which is probably the best way to go but it's outside Core/d20srd so his DM might not allow it.

If you're only looking at Core+XPH for your options and you really need to bring two types of magic for your party, I would go Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer over any MT build since it's single-attribute dependent and both sides have the same fast (+1 every other level) spell/power level progression. For spell school/psionic discipline specialization I'd want them to compliment each other so they're not overlapping too much in their roles; have one side handle debuffing/battlefield control and the other side either blasting or buffing/support depending on what's needed.

You might ask the DM to allow the Spell Point Variant system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) for the Wizard side so it works similarly to the Psion side and gives you a little bit more options for what you can cast in a given day. You'd still only be able to cast once per round (not counting Quicken) but at least they'd all be at your highest-level if you need them to be, which is always the weakness of the dual-casters who have a lot of spells but they're all lower-level.

Elminster1
2009-05-24, 09:36 AM
No, I disagree with alot on here. If it's extra spells slots you want, go for Focused Specialist, hands down. Yes, the downside is you eliminate 3 schools of magic forever. The upside is you get 3 extra castings i your specialty school, and keep only 1 generalist or "flex" slot. Overtime, that's an obscene amount of spells. FS get plenty of spells to play with.

If that's too overwhelming for you, try Domain wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana. You get an arcane domain, cast at +1 caster level from 0-9. Apparently you give up nothing in return. Would your DM allow this, dunno.

Flickerdart
2009-05-24, 09:44 AM
The only Mystic Theurge build worth a damn is one that uses Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord (not both though) for accelerated progression so you get 9th level spells in both classes. Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 1/MT 9/Full Advancement PrC 1 is the most basic of such builds.

Elminster1
2009-05-24, 10:26 AM
No, Mystic Theurge is COOL, don't get it wrong by any means. Don't turn it into something uber dorky with over optimization.

But, don't be the Mystic Theurge for extra castings, because it's not ideal in that regard. You hammer your caster level, which is BAD versus SR and saves.

I had a Mystic Theurge build that was Cleric of Mystra/Abjurer/Dweomerkeeper. I never got to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil sadly. But it was cool, powerful and fun, plus synergistic.

Oh, and I can say this much. If you DO go Mystic Theurge, try the Cloistered Cleric varinat from Unearthed Arcana, you give up armor use for extra skills, and you keep your Domains. Pretty much better in ever way than standard Cleric for Mystic Theurge builds.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-24, 10:35 AM
Mystic Theurge. Go cleric/sorcerer. As a cleric you can use tactics to memorize the best spells that will work for the situation. And as a sorcerer you can have those few "just in case bad s#$t happens" spells waiting. Oh, and you might want to think of going lich. More power.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 10:40 AM
Archivists themselves require both Wisdom (for bonus spells) and Intelligence (for everything else).

You're a Mystic Theurge. You don't need bonus spells.

raitalin
2009-05-24, 10:47 AM
If you want to go Wizard/Druid Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild is better in every way than MT, except for maybe lacking some abusive entry options.

Better BAB, better skills, Ignoring Spell Failure in Druid armor, advancing wild shape if you take Druid 5, and combining+advancing both your companion and familiar.

Zergrusheddie
2009-05-24, 11:50 AM
I will agree that Mystic Theurge is a little MAD and it is not nearly as powerful as a straight Wizard or a straight Cleric. If you are in a group of 6 people and have a Skill-Monkey, a Tank, a Batman, a Clericzilla, and a Barbarian than you will feel low powered as Batman and Clericzilla have much higher level spells than you. It is generally better to have higher level spells than having more lower level spells.

Now, I will say that the Mystic Theurge in our group of 3 people is very useful because we couldn't afford ditching a Wizard nor a Cleric. If you are playing in a small group, than a Mystic Theurge is not such a bad option. However, you will still not be as powerful as a straight caster and someone with the Leadership feat with a decent Charisma can get a Wizard/Cleric that is more powerful than your half. A level 3Wizard/3Cleric/1Mystic Theurge only as the power of a 4th level Wizard/Cleric. My group has found that the places where being a MT hurts the most is during a transition to different stages of levels/play; it hurts most when you are still in the low caster level (5) and everyone else has entered mid caster levels (8) because the jump in power spells that level is extreme.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Gorbash
2009-05-24, 11:56 AM
Also, there's a feat in Complete Arcane called Precocious Apprentice (p. 181) which lets you cast a single 2nd lvl spell on 1st character level, which could be enough to qualify for MT/Cerebromancer 2 levels earlier on the Arcane side, if your DM allows it so.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 12:03 PM
PA doesn't work with MT, because of the way its worded. If you gain the ability to cast ANY 2nd level spells, you lose its benefit. It would work with Cerebromancer though, since Powers != Spells.

A more reliable method would be Versatile Spellcaster.

Gorbash
2009-05-24, 12:07 PM
Lol javascript in D&D. Never though I'd see the day. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, I missed that part, but yeah, it would obviously work on Cerebromancer. I wouldn't allow it in my games, though, it's a loop hole. It could be argued that the requirment is being able to cast spells, not a spell. :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 12:11 PM
Lol javascript in D&D. Never though I'd see the day. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, I missed that part, but yeah, it would obviously work on Cerebromancer. I wouldn't allow it in my games, though, it's a loop hole. It could be argued that the requirment is being able to cast spells, not a spell. :smalltongue:

Does that mean an 8th level Ranger or Paladin with a Wis score of 14 wouldn't qualify for Mystic Theurge?

(God knows why he'd want to qualify for it..)

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 12:14 PM
Actually, that would be pretty cool (albeit totally weak and useless). Hexblade / Ranger / Mystic Theurge.

At least your spellcasting improves.


You're a Mystic Theurge. You don't need bonus spells.

If any game makes playing a Mystic Theurge a good option, that means you can never have enough spells.

No, not even then.

woodenbandman
2009-05-24, 12:17 PM
No, a paladin may cast multiple different kinds of spells (not in the same day) whereas a PA wizard knows how to cast a single second level spell, not multiple kinds.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 12:18 PM
Actually, that would be pretty cool (albeit totally weak and useless). Hexblade / Ranger / Mystic Theurge.

At least your spellcasting improves.

PrC idea... forming...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-24, 12:20 PM
I would never consider going X 3/ Y 3/ MT 10 on any character, ever. If you're running out of spells in 3-5 encounters, you're casting the wrong kind of spells. Check out the Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), your spells in combat should either outright disable one or more opponents in a single shot (without dealing damage), or you should debuff your opponents and/or buff your allies (1-2 spells) so severely that your other party members completely destroy the encounter. That means you shouldn't need more than 3-4 spells on any single encounter unless you're fighting wave after wave of opponents.

If you want multiple sources of spells/day, make an Illumian (RoD) with the Krau sigil. Go Beguiler (PH2) 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ Ultimate Magus (CM) 10/ Mindbender 1/ Master Specialist 4, taking Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler to add 10/10 UM spellcasting to Wizard. You'll need two Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to get Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at level 1, any metamagic feat at 3, probably Able Learner (RoD) at 6, more metamagic feats after that, and Mindsight (LoM) at 18. At level 15 you'll have 14th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting, Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including Wizard spells you know but don't necessarily have prepared, even if that spell is higher level than you'd normally be able to cast. Specialize in Conjuration, get the Enhanced Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) (UA) and Abrupt Jaunt (PH2) variants, and possibly even go Focused Specialist (CM) if you want more spells/day. Your prohibited schools should be Enchantment, Evocation, and if focused Necromancy. You can use a Shortbow when not casting spells, get a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows and on your days off from adventuring fill them with offensive spells, and don't forget to check your Beguiler spell list for more choices.

Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest (CD) 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 is another decent build, but you have to be evil-aligned. Pick up Extend, Persistent Spell (CA) and at level 12 get Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (CD) and some Night Sticks (LM).

Gorbash
2009-05-24, 12:32 PM
Does that mean an 8th level Ranger or Paladin with a Wis score of 14 wouldn't qualify for Mystic Theurge?

(God knows why he'd want to qualify for it..)

Well, the issue is that you can cast only one spell, not one per day. Rangers and Paladins have many spells at disposal (ie they can cast 2nd level spells), but just one per day. I think it makes sense in RAI sorta way.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 12:39 PM
Well, the issue is that you can cast only one spell, not one per day. Rangers and Paladins have many spells at disposal (ie they can cast 2nd level spells), but just one per day. I think it makes sense in RAI sorta way.

Okay.

Can a 4th level Psychic Warrior, who only knows one second level power, qualify for Cerebremancer?

;)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-24, 12:47 PM
By that reasoning, a Wizard 5 who isn't specialized with Int 15 (one 3rd level spell/day) wouldn't qualify for any prestige classes that require 3rd level spells. Likewise, anyone who uses up all of their higher-level spells/day would cease to qualify for his prestige class(es) that require him to be able to cast spells of a certain level, as he can no longer cast spells of the required level until he rests again. This is not the case.

An 8th level Ranger or Paladin with a Wisdom 14 can cast one 2nd level spell today, one 2nd level spell tomorrow, one 2nd level spell the next day. He can cast 2nd level spells and thus qualifies, even if it's the same spell multiple times.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 12:55 PM
By that reasoning, a Wizard 5 who isn't specialized with Int 15 (one 3rd level spell/day) wouldn't qualify for any prestige classes that require 3rd level spells. Likewise, anyone who uses up all of their higher-level spells/day would cease to qualify for his prestige class(es) that require him to be able to cast spells of a certain level, as he can no longer cast spells of the required level until he rests again. This is not the case.

An 8th level Ranger or Paladin with a Wisdom 14 can cast one 2nd level spell today, one 2nd level spell tomorrow, one 2nd level spell the next day. He can cast 2nd level spells and thus qualifies, even if it's the same spell multiple times.

Yes we've been over this thank you. Twice now.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-24, 12:59 PM
PrC idea... forming...

Do it! My hexblade has needed a boost for some time now.

Well, would have, if I was in a D&D campaign.

Garian
2009-05-24, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the help, I think I will go Wizard 1/psion 3/Cerebremancer X. If my DM allows it. I like the PrC, someone should follow it through. While on this topic, anyone know what level the mystic theurge in OOTS is? I forget her name.

grautry
2009-05-24, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the help, I think I will go Wizard 1/psion 3/Cerebremancer X. If my DM allows it. I like the PrC, someone should follow it through. While on this topic, anyone know what level the mystic theurge in OOTS is? I forget her name.

Class and level geekery estimates that she's Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 6.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-24, 03:02 PM
Do it! My hexblade has needed a boost for some time now.

Well, would have, if I was in a D&D campaign.

You can expect me to do it just as soon as I can find my copy of the PHB2.

Chronos
2009-05-24, 03:13 PM
The better argument against "able to cast spells" requiring more than one spell is that it clobbers sorcerers even harder than they are already. A sorcerer trying for Mystic Theurge would then need not three, not four, but five levels of sorc to qualify, since a fourth-level sorcerer only knows one second-level spell.

Optimystik
2009-05-24, 03:38 PM
If you want to go Wizard/Druid Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild is better in every way than MT, except for maybe lacking some abusive entry options.

Better BAB, better skills, Ignoring Spell Failure in Druid armor, advancing wild shape if you take Druid 5, and combining+advancing both your companion and familiar.

Or better yet, take both for 9th level arcane and divine spells + wildshape.
Elven Arcane HieroTheurge (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12614730&postcount=3)

Taken from Caedrus' Mystic Theurge handbook on the WotC boards. READ IT! Linky (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12614725)

S/he discusses all the methods for early entry that you guys are considering, like PA and Illumian.

Keld Denar
2009-05-24, 03:58 PM
Thanks for the help, I think I will go Wizard 1/psion 3/Cerebremancer X. If my DM allows it. I like the PrC, someone should follow it through. While on this topic, anyone know what level the mystic theurge in OOTS is? I forget her name.

The best Theurging classes end up being the ones that give more than just a little spellcasting. Ultimate Magus is great, as is Anima Mage (Wiz/Binder), Elditch Theurge, and Eldritch Disciple (Warlock/Wiz and Warlock/Cleric respectively).

MT is just too bland....

arguskos
2009-05-24, 04:01 PM
The best Theurging classes end up being the ones that give more than just a little spellcasting. Ultimate Magus is great, as is Anima Mage (Wiz/Binder), Elditch Theurge, and Eldritch Disciple (Warlock/Wiz and Warlock/Cleric respectively).

MT is just too bland....
Honestly, I like the Pathfinder MT. It lets you prep spells from one class in the slots of the other as you progress up the class. This doesn't seem awesome, but once you finish MT and one class gets better, it ensures the other isn't totally left behind. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2009-05-24, 04:20 PM
The best Theurging classes end up being the ones that give more than just a little spellcasting. Ultimate Magus is great, as is Anima Mage (Wiz/Binder), Elditch Theurge, and Eldritch Disciple (Warlock/Wiz and Warlock/Cleric respectively).

MT is just too bland....

Anima Mage is one of the most awesome classes I've ever read. The flavor is off the charts, and he can dominate a firefight too. I'd love to roleplay hiding my vestiges from my party members even while they make me do weird things like forbid everyone access to my inn room or hit on the party cleric. :smallbiggrin:

And yes, I agree with you completely: dual progression PrCs need that 'something extra' to make jumping through all the qualifying hoops worth it. I think MT was just the first one they came up with so they were worried about the power level of just the spells by themselves or something.

CASTLEMIKE
2009-05-24, 05:52 PM
Are you allowed to tweak the Ultimate Magus PRC to Ultimate Mystic Theurge in your game?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070306

#Raptor
2009-05-24, 07:58 PM
I have always enjoyed paying all sorts of spell casters. I am finding that I constantly lack the proper number of spells to be helpful as a utility belt and in combat for any true length of time. I end up using a crossbow a lot, something no wizard should never have to do.

I dont know the slightest thing about the Mystic Theurge/Cerebremancer, but if running out of spells really is your problem, I have a alternate solution.

Play a sorcerer.
To be more specific, play a Gold Dwarf sorcerer with the lvl 9 racial substitution from Races of the Stone (pg. 147).

What does it do? It adds your con bonus to cha to determine bonus spells, as long as you rested for 8 hours while having contact with the ground.
And Gold Dwarf gets his -2 to dex instead of to cha... wich is a good thing for you, as cha is your primary stat and dex is only a secoundary stat.
Only negative point about the whole thing is that you can't prc out of sorcerer untill level 9.

Sorcerer guides:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1184568
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1080031

holywhippet
2009-05-24, 08:44 PM
I would never consider going X 3/ Y 3/ MT 10 on any character, ever. If you're running out of spells in 3-5 encounters, you're casting the wrong kind of spells. Check out the Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), your spells in combat should either outright disable one or more opponents in a single shot (without dealing damage), or you should debuff your opponents and/or buff your allies (1-2 spells) so severely that your other party members completely destroy the encounter. That means you shouldn't need more than 3-4 spells on any single encounter unless you're fighting wave after wave of opponents.

That assumes you are only having 3-5 encounters before resting. The great weakness of spellcasters is attrition. If the DM drops the party in a situation where they can't easily retreat and rest but keeps hitting them with ambushes and/or surprise attacks it might come down to endurance (in the form of lots of spells) rather than being able to finish any given fight in a hurry.

Flickerdart
2009-05-24, 08:48 PM
That assumes you are only having 3-5 encounters before resting. The great weakness of spellcasters is attrition. If the DM drops the party in a situation where they can't easily retreat and rest but keeps hitting them with ambushes and/or surprise attacks it might come down to endurance (in the form of lots of spells) rather than being able to finish any given fight in a hurry.
That happens to anyone else. It's called HP. While casters are burning through spell slots, melee types are getting whacked in the face. And casters generally have more spells than melee can take CR-appropriate hits to the face.

holywhippet
2009-05-24, 09:54 PM
That happens to anyone else. It's called HP. While casters are burning through spell slots, melee types are getting whacked in the face. And casters generally have more spells than melee can take CR-appropriate hits to the face.

Yes, and some of those spells will be used to restore the HP of damaged party members.

CR doesn't always indicate average damage. 20 goblins launching ranged weapons have a good chance of getting at least one critical hit in. Not to mention the Tucker's kobolds scenario.

Sometimes having a lot of spells is more important than having a lower number of really good spells.

Chronos
2009-05-24, 11:29 PM
Another solution to the running-out-of-spells problem is the reserve feats, from Complete Mage. As long as the attrition parts of the adventure come before the big boss fight rather than after, you'll never need to worry about running out of spells.

Epinephrine
2009-05-25, 07:35 AM
Granted, it's not 3.5, but Pathfinder has written new versions of the Prestige classes in the DMG, trying to balance them a bit against the newer PrCs.

Since the Mystic Theurge is weak compared to newer dual casting classes, your DM might consider the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge as a replacement?

Basically, at 1st level you can prepare(or if appropriate, spontaneously cast) 1st level spells of either of your casting classes in the other type of spell slot, at a +1 level cost. The level of spell to which this can apply increases by 1 with every two additional mystic theurge levels, so by 9th level you can cast 5th level spells using a 6th level slot of the other class.

The 10th level power is a Spell Synthesis, casting a spell from each class in the same casting action (only usable 1/day); any target affected by both spells takes a -2 save (if appropriate) on saves versus each spell, and you get +2 CL for both spells.

Not a huge boost, but it makes all those spell slots really flexible if you have spontaneous casting on either side, and the once a day power is pretty cool.

Trouvere
2009-05-25, 07:45 AM
First, the only time anyone sane will consider becoming a Mystic Theurge at all is in a world that is core-only or core/SRD only. Additional material may permit various more or less dubious early entry options, but at the same time, this additional material only makes the MT an even worse choice.

Second, there's a certain sort of mindset which says the optimized party consists of 5 Wizards, or 3 Wizards, a Cleric and a Druid, or whatever. Yeah, okay, this is actually true, at least past the lowest levels. But let's at least pretend that there's still a place for the iconic party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and 5th wheel.

At 1st level, our potential Mystic Theurge is a Cloistered Cleric. No problem. Ixnay on the ysticmay-eurgethay talk, though. Don't spook the other party members.
At 2nd level, instead of racing forward with cleric to get his 2nd level spells as soon as possible, he takes a specialist Wizard level. Why? Because other 2nd level casters will be gaining one additional 0th and 1st level spell, but he'll be gaining 4 and 3. He's now the most powerful caster in the party. This is his one brief, golden moment to shine. For the rest of his career, he will look back on this perfect time, and the glow of the memory will temporarily warm his tear-soaked pillow.
At 3rd level, things start to go wrong. If he was smart and the party Wizard is also a specialist, he retained one or both of his companion's barred schools, so there are still some specific things only he can do. But our pre-Theurge now has to try to forget any hope of trying to compete with the straight Cleric or Wizard. Perhaps the other party members will like him as a person by this point. If not, then suddenly, his position in the party is in doubt. He can't compete with a full caster, so he's trying to fill the 5th wheel position.

His primary competitor, therefore, is the Bard, and his deepest fear is that the other members of the party will find one, get up very early and very quietly and "accidentally" leave him behind in the tavern.

Still, consider the core/SRD pre-Mystic Theurge at his lowest point: Cloistered Cleric 3 / specialist Wizard 3. He'll have Int 16, so he has 69 or 78 skill points. His Bard opponent probably has Int 14, so has 67 or 76 skill points, though from a better set of class skills. That's a wash. The Bard can produce bardic song effects 6 times per day. Bully for him. The Bard can cast from the same small selection of spells 3/4/3 times per day. The pre-Theurge on the other hand casts 10/8/6 per day, from a much wider overall selection. Once he actually enters Mystic Theurge, his spellcasting will only gain over the Bard's. At MT 4, for instance, he probably has 11/12/10/8/5 to the Bard's 3/4/4/3/1. That's something, surely?

The pre-Theurge is also aware that his Turn Undead is or will soon be utterly useless (since divine metamagic is not an option), so he's traded it out for an equally useless 1/day Smite Evil and a paladin's Aura of Courage, which is at least something. If fear effects do become important, then it's better than the Bard's +1 morale bonus, anyhow.

Chances are that the pre-Theurge chose the Travel domain. It's probably the best of the core domains, anyway. He has Survival as a class skill. It's probably not a bad idea for him to have taken the Track feat and kept his Survival skill up when possible. Now he's also the party tracker, so there's another reason to keep him around over a Bard. How many spells can a 6th level Ranger cast again? And if the others do leave him behind, he can at least follow them.

If he was really thinking ahead, he was born a Kobold, and took the Kobold domain. Now he can also be the party trapfinder, or at least help out. Or both this and Travel with Track, though this eats up his skill points.

But wait, you say, any straight Cleric could have taken those domains. Hmm... true. There ought to be some synergy between Cleric and Wizard. Is there? Unlike most Clerics (and Bards), he has Scribe Scroll, so he can carry around a copy or two of every useful Cleric spell he can prepare, without having to purchase them or cooperate with the Wizard. Perhaps he took the Rune domain and the Wizard variant that drops Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus feat, so he still has Scribe Scroll but also, um, Improved Initiative.

Both his spell lists contain a great many useful touch-range spells, and as a Wizard, he has access to spectral hand (assuming he didn't bar Necromancy). He can hold back on spells from his cleric side until they're really needed, when without spectral hand it would be too late or too risky to run into the thick of things to deliver them. CLW at range is obvious. When the undead rise from the ground all around, he can drop a hide from undead on everyone, no matter where they're standing. He can hold back bear's endurance until it turns out the Fighter is indeed in trouble - or drop sanctuary on him so he can retreat, without having to stand next to him to do so. Later on, he doesn't have to guess which teammate to buff with freedom of movement - he can wait until someone really does get grappled or webbed. There must be... several more uses.

Well, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm just playing devil's advocate, or starting some sort of quixotic Giacomo's monk's guide equivalent! But I do think it's at least possible there's a place for a Mystic Theurge as a 5th party member, in a core/SRD game.

Epinephrine
2009-05-25, 08:46 AM
Thanks Trouvere - and I will point out that there are parties that are indeed oddly composed and not optimal, as people choose clases they want to play.

Wild Elf Barbarian (brute force)
Human (able learner) Swordsage (and party face - I know, not optimal, but people get ideas)
Human Scout (ranged, handles stealth and trapfinding)

And add a fourth. Nobody in the party has Use magic device, yet they have a mix of melee and ranged combat, as well as tracking, trapfinding/device handling via the scout. The party is also pretty stealthy, which is handy for some jobs. Having a mystic theurge might flesh it out well, as it would cover divine and arcane casting, albeit not as well as either would be covered by a single class character - but when only one player likes spellcasters, it may be the best choice?

Optimystik
2009-05-25, 09:06 AM
Chances are that the pre-Theurge chose the Travel domain. It's probably the best of the core domains, anyway. He has Survival as a class skill. It's probably not a bad idea for him to have taken the Track feat and kept his Survival skill up when possible. Now he's also the party tracker, so there's another reason to keep him around over a Bard. How many spells can a 6th level Ranger cast again? And if the others do leave him behind, he can at least follow them.

I was rolling with laughter throughout this write-up, but this is the paragraph that put me over the edge :smallbiggrin:

You know, I was thinking of rolling a CC to be the party bard; a mish-mash of Cadderly Bonaduce and Danilo Thann with oration instead of singing. You gave me quite a bit of food for thought!