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HMS Invincible
2009-05-24, 11:46 PM
I just realized that 4th ed doesn't mention ever taking off your armor except in replacing it with better ones. What kind of action is it to take off your armor? What about putting it on? Should I use 3.5 rules for this? You know, penalties for sleeping in armor, (does cloth count as armor?) taking 5 minutes to put it on and off, etc.

V'icternus
2009-05-24, 11:58 PM
Wow, I'd never noticed that...

I kinda just assumed they slept in their armour. (What player wouldn't choose to do this? Lol.)

I suppose it's up to the DM. I mean, maybe a standard action for each piece of armour... (Arm, arm, leg, leg, torso,) depending on the armour. (Minor for the helmet, it's the easiest)

But that's just how I'd do it.

Of course, it'd be different for light armour...

And if you did implement these rules, maybe make a heroic tier feat, "Quick Dresser", to allow them to give up their turn in order to put on their armour or something.


Wow, this post was longer than I thought it'd be, but without turning into a rant... Cool. I'm improving.

Gralamin
2009-05-25, 12:16 AM
Really, why bother having it? What does it add to the game? The heavy armor player (Usually the Defender) is removed from battle for a while. How does this help the game any?

Quietus
2009-05-25, 12:19 AM
Really, why bother having it? What does it add to the game? The heavy armor player (Usually the Defender) is removed from battle for a while. How does this help the game any?

Some people like realism. Sleeping in full plate = not. comfortable.

Asbestos
2009-05-25, 12:26 AM
Some people like realism. Sleeping in full plate = not. comfortable.

Yeah, but sleeping in super magical godplate might be amazing!

I think they left it out for the much vaunted Balance. I'd, in order to appease this great beast, make a night encounter where the Heavy Armor folks are unprepared be a bit lower in difficultly than something the prepared party might face. I imagine that chain and scale is a bit easier to put on than plate, not all heavy armor is created equal.

Warforged of course could easily rest in heavy armor I imagine, and I feel that trancing could also be done in heavy armor if it were a must. The idea of wearing armor (any armor) 24/7 or even 16 hours out of 24 is ludicrous... but that's D&D I guess.

RTGoodman
2009-05-25, 12:33 AM
If you really wanted to add it in, it's not that hard.

-You can sleep in any light armor without any problems, and taking it off or putting it back on only takes one round for cloth, two for leather, and three for hide.

-Heavy armor isn't particularly good to sleep in, and you lose one healing surge the next day for not taking your armor off before you sleep. Putting on or taking off heavy armor takes the same amount of time as a short rest.

-Optional: Magical heavy armor (or maybe masterwork heavy armor) doesn't have the problem of losing a surge.


I wouldn't use it, but there you go if you want.

Gralamin
2009-05-25, 12:34 AM
Some people like realism. Sleeping in full plate = not. comfortable.

How does Realism for Realism's sake add to the game? Especially a game that is already filled with unrealistic things?

If its merely suspension of disbelief related, then it comes to the question: Whats better for the game, a character being unable to fight for most if not all of an encounter because they have to put their armor on, or all the players being able to participate in the battle, which usually involves a lot of suspension of disbelief anyway? Personally, I'd always lean to allowing everyone to play and have fun in a battle (Your experience might vary).

Giggling Ghast
2009-05-25, 12:38 AM
I don't know it's all that important. True, it's a bit unrealistic for humans to spend the night sleeping in chainmail or plate armour. But a lot of PCs don't wear heavy armour and aren't even human. Dragons sleep on piles of gold; why shouldn't a dragonborn be comfortable slumbering in his suit of armour?

Also, if I were a PC and I was camping out in the middle of a dungeon, ghost-haunted ruins or the local dark forest of death, I would probably keep my gear close by. It wouldn't be too comfortable, but when a pack of trolls come crashing by in the middle of the night, you probably wouldn't hear me complaining.

Incidentally, why are there no rules for bathing? God, 4E is total BS.

Colmarr
2009-05-25, 12:39 AM
Hmm, unless my memory fails me, the equipment and/or adventuring sections of the PHB specifically mention how long it takes to put on or take off armour.

IIRC, it says that armour can only be put on or taken off during a short rest (ie. it takes approximately 5 minutes).

There are no penalties for sleeping in armour in 4e.

Asbestos
2009-05-25, 12:40 AM
Incidentally, why are there no rules for bathing? God, 4E is total BS.

I think its a well known fact that adventurers don't bathe.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-25, 12:43 AM
You don't sleep in heavy armor. Heck, Light Armor would be hard to sleep in(have you ever willingly slept in jeans and a leather coat?). Picture that, only with stiff, immovable pads on your chest, and hard joints. That's Hide. Do you really think you would sleep 8 hours in that?
And you don't equip it during combat, either. How long does dressing take, after all, and Armor has various straps and buckles designed to work, not to be easy to reach on your own. 4.X combat I've heard takes about an in-game minute, with the victor decided early on, everything else being about resource management while wearing them down. You don't armor up during the critical first few rounds(you probably lose), and after that removing a player from the battle would be too risky(snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, most likely). Rule they can dress during a short rest, and don't worry about the specifics.

Edit:A US army soldier was just attacked while napping, and ran out to combat in his boxers and flip-flops. Expect the same devotion from your players.

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-25, 12:44 AM
In addition, this can be reversed on the NPCs. Clever players can set up ambushes or strike in the evening or early morning when they know the enemy will be ill prepared and unarmored. I say use the 3.5 rules, or some slightly kinder variant.

TheOOB
2009-05-25, 12:52 AM
I made a house rule that was simple. If the armor has an armor check penalty, you need to be trained in endurance to sleep in it without taking penalties the next day.

Otherwise I just had it take a short rest to change clothing.

Nightson
2009-05-25, 01:03 AM
You don't sleep in heavy armor. Heck, Light Armor would be hard to sleep in(have you ever willingly slept in jeans and a leather coat?). Picture that, only with stiff, immovable pads on your chest, and hard joints. That's Hide. Do you really think you would sleep 8 hours in that?

In a dangerous environment, yes absolutely. Sleeping in clothing or armor that restricts your movement is just a matter of not moving while asleep. You'll be a little stiff come morning, but you'll be alive when the night ambush happens.

HMS Invincible
2009-05-25, 01:28 AM
I think, using rough 3.5 rules, I'll make it so that:
all light armor takes 4 rounds to put on. Someone helping you halves the time. All heavier armor require a short rest (5minutes) and a shield is a move action to equip. I guess all other items are also move actions to equip. Sleeping in any armor (Cloth too) makes you fatigued. He or she takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run.

What do you guys think? It's not exactly what 3.5 says but it is easy to remember: Don't sleep in your gear, and are you willing to take 2-4 rounds armoring up? I wanted to minimize the exceptions and minutiae of the old rule with this simplified rule. If this works out, I'll be have the occasional encounter that gets surprise round and either 2 rounds with less combatants or unarmored combatants. And it works both ways as well.

Thajocoth
2009-05-25, 01:29 AM
In campaigns I've been in, only once has this sorta come up... The fighter got sick and decided to take his armor off to get a better night's rest (by which he meant not get a penalty to con). Aside from that, our rests are generally "Ok, we're completely tapped out... Let's try resting in such-and-such room. We bar the doors first. ... Ok, you rest successfully." So, if we say we sleep, and the GM starts drawing on the whiteboard and asking us to place ourselves... Dead giveaway that we're fighting something. (But we still act surprised.)

As for uncomfortability though... So's MOST of what characters do. I, personally, would never go into a sewer... Or go into a situation that I know I'll probably get stabbed (or burned/electrocuted/drowned/obliterated/all sorts of nasty painful things)... Or not bathe ever... Heck, I've actually had to leave places others were fine in other people's opinions because they smelled too horrible to me for me to think straight. If adventurers are going to go though all sorts of unpleasantries in danger for honor and/or profit, it only stands to reason that they'd wear their armor to bed in case they're ambushed or something.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-25, 01:35 AM
How does Realism for Realism's sake add to the game? Especially a game that is already filled with unrealistic things?

If its merely suspension of disbelief related, then it comes to the question: Whats better for the game, a character being unable to fight for most if not all of an encounter because they have to put their armor on, or all the players being able to participate in the battle, which usually involves a lot of suspension of disbelief anyway? Personally, I'd always lean to allowing everyone to play and have fun in a battle (Your experience might vary).

You know....I can't help myself when it comes to this....because 4th ed isn't an MMO and thus some realism would be nice.


All snark aside. Some people like more realism in a game. You clearly don't so you don't need to think of this. He clearly thinks it should. And honestly I agree. Its a game of tactics. This takes a great tactic out of the game.

V'icternus
2009-05-25, 01:45 AM
Yeah. After all, this way it's not "surprise round, normal battle", it's "surprise round, battle starts. Oh, but you don't start out wearing armour"

Fighter: Hmm... armour, or no armour...
I might die, but if I delay, my friends might die...
*Chews fingernails off*

Warlord: Armour or no armour... uhh... well, I guess for this battle I could direct them from the back... but maybe I should get my armour on so I can join the battle up the front...

Wizard: Huh? Wha? Battle? Uh-oh. Must prepare spells!
... And why isn't the fighter between me and that Orc?

Warlock: Hahaha! Die, Orc-scum, die! *Blasting away without a care*

Bow Ranger: Armour'd help me if they hit me... but...
*Runs away, snipes from a distance*

Paladin: Armour. Can't smite evil without armour.

Etc...

ghost_warlock
2009-05-25, 01:48 AM
have you ever willingly slept in jeans and a leather coat?

I actually spent several years doing exactly that. In fact, the only reason I ever stopped is that the rivets holding my jeans together were rather hard on bedsheets. I'm actually more comfortable sleeping in jeans and my denim jacket than I am sleeping in just a pair of boxers. But to each their own...

Regarding the OP: I let characters sleep in their armor. With my group, it's hard enough getting someone to play a defender without having someone complain about having to take their armor off and on every extended rest while the clothies or leather wearers don't have to. I can just about imagine the whining if they actually got attacked while resting if I made them take the armor off...


Heck, I've actually had to leave places others were fine in other people's opinions because they smelled too horrible to me for me to think straight.

The Bath & Body store in the mall? :smallwink::smalltongue: Way too much scented crap in those places for my sniffer.

Kylarra
2009-05-25, 01:49 AM
That's why everyone needs a druid with Create Campsite. Thus these things don't happen without dedicated trackers.

Grynning
2009-05-25, 02:59 AM
We had a late night inn attack by doppelganger assassins fairly early in our campaign. Most of us just fought without our armor. The paladin and my warlord grabbed our shields and that was it. My AC only went down a couple points due to my Int score, putting me about on par with the wizard for AC, and while I took some nasty hits, I survived the fight. The paladin actually didn't even get hit, due to some bad tight quarters maneuvering she was out of the fight for most of it and then came in and finished off two opponents in a single turn. It was a fun and dramatic encounter, and the heightened sense of mortality added to the thrill.

I think it's fine to have more "realistic" concessions for 4th ed as long as you use some common sense. With this case, any character with the time to put on armor will obviously do so, there's no reason to make them declare it or have any rules more complex than "it takes you a couple of minutes." If a DM wanted to jump the players when some or all of them were without armor, they should balance the encounter accordingly...make the enemies lower level or pick enemies that mostly target NAD's that will theoretically still be at the right levels (shields and neck slot items could easily be "equipped" in a matter of seconds).

I've actually been thinking about having an encounter where the characters are without weapons and have to use improvised weapons or their fists. Yeah the cleric and wizard will shine a little more than usual but I think my ranger would get a kick out of dual wielding a bottle and a chair leg :smalltongue:

Jerthanis
2009-05-25, 04:51 AM
Personally, I'd just default assume they weren't in their armor if they were just sleeping in the wilderness, and not let them don their armor mid-combat, but I'd make the battle easier to compensate.

If they were in physically taxing surroundings under which they were forced to undergo cautious actions such as mounting watches and sleeping in armor, I'd just ask for an Endurance check at the risk of lost healing surges. Armor Check Penalties factor into Endurance, so it seems appropriate.

Fishy
2009-05-25, 05:37 AM
Hi, welcome to 4th Ed.

Simulationism is one of the many things that people look for in a game, and it's entirely valid, but Wizards has, officially and Word-of-God, given up on it. If you're looking for a game that accurately represents the risks and horrors of combat, 4E just plain isn't that game, for a wide variety of reasons.

I would say that, just like every +1 throwing weapon returns to the thrower, every +1 armor can be comfortably slept in. Give the PCs the tools they need to do their job, and don't take them away just because that's how it would 'really' happen.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-25, 06:08 AM
have you ever willingly slept in jeans and a leather coat?

Yes. And combat boots. I was quite comfortable.

Izmir Stinger
2009-05-25, 06:24 AM
Edit:A US army soldier was just attacked while napping, and ran out to combat in his boxers and flip-flops. Expect the same devotion from your players.

Not the first time it has happened, but probably the first time it was photographed by the AP.

... and what a photo! You failed to mention the boxers were pink and had "I <3 NY" on the ass.

Mystic Muse
2009-05-25, 06:51 AM
actually cloth armour is pretty much just regular clothing.

so either your characters are sleeping in their underwear or nude and believe me you want to avoid doing that. oh the comments you'll get.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-05-25, 07:37 AM
I would say that, just like every +1 throwing weapon returns to the thrower, every +1 armor can be comfortably slept in.

Sounds right to me. Hell, if I was adventurer, Iīd make plenty sure to buy armour thatīs been enchanted to be comfortable when worn for days on end. Itīs dangerous work and taking off your armour is just asking for trouble. And your average adventurer gets enough of it to not need any extra help :smalltongue:

Yakk
2009-05-25, 10:22 AM
For Heavy Armor characters:
When ambushed, make an Endurance check. Your non-shielded AC is the higher of your AC in Hide, or your Endurance check, plus your enhancement and masterwork bonuses from your actual.

This represents "taking off enough armor to be comfortable to sleep". Magical armor and masterwork armor is presumed to be more comfortable.

In general, such a feature should only be used if you are also introducting rules such as "wizards only regain daily spells after 2 hours of study in the morning" and "bows must be left unstrung", "critical hit damage on unarmored targets is doubled" etc. It s more than a bit unfair to signal out heavy armor wearers for "reality", while leaving everyone else less shackled.

TheDarkOne
2009-05-25, 11:17 AM
I think that the conditions under which a given person can get a good nights sleep are variable enough that it's rather silly to penalize all characters who decide to try to sleep in heavy armour. The most I would do is that whenever characters want to sleep in a place that doesn't have a bed, sleeping requires N extra hours to be as effective as when they have access to regular comforts.

Grynning
2009-05-25, 12:24 PM
Y'know, reading through this, it seems that most people are acting as if they RP out every minute of every day. Do people's groups seriously never "cut?" I always just thought of 4th ed's lack of simulationism as it being more like a novel, movie or TV show. It leaves out the boring parts, and never includes detail that isn't necessary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail). That's exactly how I feel about this whole situation. You don't sit there and watch Aragorn or Conan do all their morning chores, put on their armor, go to the bathroom, or whatever, you watch them kick ass and have dramatic moments with other characters. Does that mean that they sleep in their armor or have some crazy ability to don it faster than other people, or have magic diapers that let them do their business without removing it*? No. They still spent time taking it off and putting it on, it just happened "off-camera" because it's not important to the story.

Same goes for 4th ed. Just because there are no rules for things doesn't mean they don't happen, just that they don't matter. The only reason that characters should ever be without their armor or other equipment is if it's dramatic, or an intentional increase to the challenge of an encounter. And the DM doesn't have to justify it beyond "the attack is sprung before you have time to put on your armor!" This should be a rare device, maybe once a campaign or so, just so it doesn't get to the point where the characters WANT to always sleep in their armor, but it's really not that different than adding terrain or traps to make an encounter more interesting.

*Before the medieval arms and armor buffs get on my case, I am fully aware that back in the day, they did wear diapers and go right in their armor until the battle was over. But that's gross and we really don't like to think of fantasy heroes that way.

Mando Knight
2009-05-25, 12:50 PM
I think its a well known fact that adventurers don't bathe.

Of course not. You'd either die from someone popping in and killing your unbuffed rear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), or else the DM would introduce random deadly traps and monsters disguising themselves as standard bathroom objects.