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View Full Version : I am an ardent symbol of ancient arcana [3.5 Base Class]



Lappy9000
2009-05-25, 02:03 AM
The Symbol
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs12/300W/i/2006/291/e/5/Faerie_Warrior_by_Krista20.jpg
-A symbol of Dragonic Heritage in all her glory.

Image by Krista20 (http://http://krista20.deviantart.com/).

The symbol is named as such for her devotion to an ancient source of arcane magic. Through a ceremonial rite, she becomes a physical representation of the power granted to her through her legacy of arcane power, gaining magical prowess beyond any mundane fighter. Often fierce and exotic, a symbol stands out among the ordinary crowd with their powerful demeanors and striking appearances.
Adventurers: Most symbols take up the mantle of an adventurer in order to further their Arcane Legacy ability, becoming one step closer to their final transformation. The unique skills of a symbol make them appealing to military powers, and many symbols gladly accept such roles. During a battle, it is not uncommon to find a symbol on the front lines with the fighters, only to drop back later and join the wizards from the back of the company.
Characteristics: A symbol is essentially a martial warrior with arcane abilities as well. The Legacy rite that a symbol has dedicated her to both protects her and grants her powers that no other martial class can duplicate. A symbol truly embraces the power of ancient magic to benefit herself and her allies on the battlefield.
Alignment: A symbol can be of any alignment, although some have preconceptions regarding their alliances. For example, a symbol taking the Draconic Heritage rite would most likely emulate the alignment of one of the true dragons.
Background: All symbols are united by the powers that have been granted them. Some have been raised by dragons as exarches; others have been blessed by elemental or fey magic, while others still have delved into the lost arcane lore of the giants.
Races: Any race can be a symbol, and every race has some members who are attracted to the powers that a symbol gains.
Other Classes: In combat, symbols serve as powerful martial combatants, delivering powerful blows with regular melee attacks as well as using natural weaponry or magic.

The Symbol
Symbols have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma is most important to the symbol, because it allows her to cast spells and access some of her Manifest Arcana abilities. Strength and Dexterity are important for a symbol's martial prowess as well.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Gold: 3d4 ×10 (75 gp)

Table: The Symbol
{table=head]
Level |
BAB |
Fort Save |
Ref Save|
Will Save |
Special|
0th |
1st |
2nd|
3rd|
4th

1st | +1 |
+0 |
+0 |
+0 | Ancestral Familiarity, Manifest Arcana|
0 |
- |
- |
- |
-

2nd | +2 |
+0 |
+0 |
+0 | Armored Mage (Light) |
0 |
- |
- |
- |
-

3rd | +3 |
+1 |
+1 |
+1 | - |
1 |
- |
- |
- |
-

4th| +4 |
+1 |
+1 |
+1 | Manifest Arcana |
1 |
- |
- |
- |
-

5th| +5 |
+1 |
+1 |
+1 | Inheritance of the Ancients |
1 |
0 |
- |
- |
-

6th| +6/+1 |
+2 |
+2 |
+2 | - |
2 |
0 |
- |
- |
-

7th| +7/+2 |
+2 |
+2 |
+2 | Manifest Arcana |
2 |
1 |
- |
- |
-

8th| +8/+3 |
+2 |
+2 |
+2 | Armored Mage (Medium) |
2 |
1 |
- |
- |
-

9th| +9/+4 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 | Deep Magic |
2 |
1 |
0 |
- |
-

10th| +10/+5 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 | Manifest Arcana |
3 |
2 |
1 |
- |
-

11th| +11/+6/+1 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 | Supernatural Birthright |
3 |
2 |
1 |
- |
-

12th| +12/+7/+2 |
+4 |
+4 |
+4 | - |
3 |
2 |
1 |
- |
-

13th| +13/+8/+3|
+4 |
+4 |
+4 | Manifest Arcana |
3 |
2 |
1 |
0 |
-

14th| +14/+9/+4 |
+4 |
+4 |
+4 | Armored Mage (Heavy) |
3 |
2 |
2 |
0 |
-

15th| +15/+10/+5 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 | - |
3 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
-

16th| +16/+11/+6/+1 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 | Manifest Arcana |
3 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
-

17th| +17/+12/+7/+2 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 | Blessing of the Precursors |
3 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1

18th| +18/+13/+8/+3 |
+6 |
+6 |
+6 | - |
4 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
1

19th| +19/+14/+9/+4 |
+6 |
+6 |
+6 | Manifest Arcana |
4 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
1

20th| +20/+15/+10/+5 |
+6 |
+6 |
+6 | Arcane Transformation |
4 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2
[/table]

Class Skills
The symbol's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2+Int Modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+Int Modifier.

Class Features
All the following are class features of the symbol.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Symbols are proficient with all simple weapons, martial weapons, and one exotic weapon of choice. Symbols are proficient with light and medium armor, as well as light shields.

Ancestral Familiarity (Ex): Symbols are more familiar with the foundations of arcane magic than most, gaining bonuses from their unique knowledge. A symbol adds her class level as an insight bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) checks. She also gains a new language, as well as a bonus to either her hit dice or one of her saving throws, based upon her Arcane Legacy rite, as listed below.

Rite of Draconic Heritage
The symbol was enlightened at the behest of a true dragon, inheriting the magical resistance of the great beings. She learns Draconic, her base Will Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level), and her base Fortitude Save changes to the "average" progression (1 + 5/9 Symbol level).

Rite of Elemental Power
The symbol was blessed by an elemental spirit, giving her the strength of the elements. She learns one of the following: Aquan, Auran, Ingan, or Terran, she adds half her symbol level to her hit point total when determining hit points each level, and her Fortitude Save changes to the "average" progression (1 + 5/9 Symbol level).

Rite of Fey Shadow
The symbol was consecrated by a powerful faerie, granting her the grace of the sylvan spirits. She learns Sylvan, her base Reflex Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level), and her Will Save changes to the "average" progression (1 + 5/9 Symbol level).

Rite of Giant's Legacy
The symbol was ordained by a colossus, endowing her with the herculean resistance of the giants. She learns Giant, and her base Fortitude Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level)
Manifest Arcana (Su): A symbol gains her abilities through a ceremonial rite to a totem of ancient arcane power. These ceremonial pacts flood the symbol with a torrent of arcane energy, affecting the symbol's physical appearance. At 1st level, a symbol picks a single ability, and gains an additional one every 3rd level (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). Unless otherwise stated, each manifest arcana ability can be taken only once.

After 9th level, a symbol may pick a Deep Magic enhancement to an existing manifest arcana power, instead of choosing a new ability.

Bladed Body The symbol gains a single natural weapon she does not already possess. Use the values below to determine the damage of the natural weapon. The symbol is considered proficient with these attacks.

The symbol may choose between 1 bite attack, 2 claw attacks, 1 gore attack (useable only on a charge), or 2 slam attacks.

{table=head]
Size|
Bite Damage|
Claw Damage|
Gore Damage|
Slam Damage

Small|
1d4|
1d3|
1d6|
1d4

Medium|
1d6|
1d4|
1d8|
1d6

Large|
1d8|
1d6|
1d10|
1d8[/table]

All natural weapons deal normal damage based upon the symbol's size. The first natural weapon earned through this manifestation counts as a primary natural weapon, while any gained thereafter count as secondary natural weapons. This manifestation can be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural weapon.

Deep Magic: The symbol's natural weapons gain a +1 enhancement bonus for every four symbol levels.

Corporeal Aegis
The symbol adds her Charisma modifier as an insight bonus to AC.

Deep Magic: The symbol is always considered to have concealment (20% miss chance)

Energy Discharge
The symbol gains a breath weapon of a single energy type in the form of a 20 ft cone (Acid, Cold, Fire, or Sonic) or a 40 ft line (Acid, Fire, Electricity, or Sonic). A symbol may also choose a breath weapon of non-energy, such as dust, rock shards, etc., in a 20 ft cone. This breath weapon deals 1d8 points of damage, and an additional 1d8 for every four symbol levels. A symbol's breath weapon can be used once every 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon allows a Reflex save for half damage, with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 symbol level + Charisma modifier.

Line-shaped breath weapons have a range of 40 ft, and Cone-shaped breath weapons have a range of 20 ft.

Deep Magic: The range of a symbol's breath weapon increases by 20 ft. In addition, living creatures who fail their saving throw take a -1 penalty to AC and a -1 penalty on attack rolls for every four symbol levels.

Energy Protection
The symbol gains Energy Resistance 10 to a single energy (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic) type of her choosing. This manifestation can be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different energy type.

Deep Magic: The symbol's existing Energy Resistance increases by 5 for every five symbol levels she possesses.

Sublime Form
The symbol's appearance is altered to reflect her exotic heritage. Her body is shaped cosmetically to the player's whim, and she gains a bonus on all Charisma-based skills equal to half her symbol level.

Deep Magic: A symbol displays an almost unearthly grace, and adds her Charisma as an insight bonus to saving throws.

Swiftness
The symbol gains a +10 insight bonus her base land speed. She keeps this bonus only if unencumbered and wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor.

Deep Magic: This insight bonus to speed now applies to all forms of movement available to the symbol, and increases by +10 for every four symbol levels.

Wings
The symbol sprouts a pair of wings wings (these can be bird wings, draconic wings, wings of steel, bat wings, wings of translucent color, insect wings, or whatever the symbol deems them to look like) that she can use to glide, moving 20 feet forward for every 5 feet she descends, effectively a 'flying' speed of 40 feet with Average maneuverability.

Deep Magic: The symbol can fly with her wings, at a speed of 60 ft with Good maneuverability. A symbol cannot use her wings to fly when carrying a heavy load or while wearing heavy armor.
Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a symbol gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from the Symbol spell list. A symbol must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a symbol must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a symbol's spell is 10 + the spell level + the symbol's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a symbol can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Symbol. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Symbol indicates that the symbol gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level. The symbol does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A symbol prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A symbol may prepare and cast any spell on the symbol spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Armored Mage (Ex): At 2nd level, a symbol gains the ability to ignore arcane spell failure. She may use light armor without chance of spell failure. At 8th level, this ability improves to medium armor and light shields. At 14th level, this ability improves further to include heavy armor.

Deep Magic (Su): Upon reaching 9th level, a symbol can access the most ancient secrets of her arcane legacy rite. Additionally, she gains Darkvision 60 ft. or increases existing Darkvision by 30 ft.

Inheritance of the Ancients (Su): A symbol of 5th level gains new powers based on her Arcane Legacy rite, as listed below.

Rite of Draconic Heritage
The symbol is further endowed with the power of the dragons, and becomes immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Rite of Elemental Power
The symbol's relation to the elemental planes grows stronger, giving her otherworldly defenses. She can no longer be flanked, and gains Light Fortification. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the symbol, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Rite of Fey Shadow
The symbol flesh becomes closer to that of the faerie realm, granting her DR 5/Cold Iron.

Rite of Giant's Legacy
The symbol's physical stature increases to let her function in many ways as if she were one size category larger.

Whenever the symbol is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), she is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her.

The symbol is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect her. A symbol can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the symbol's size category.
Supernatural Birthright (Su): Upon reaching 11th level, a symbol earns additional benefits at the behest of her Arcane Legacy rite, as listed below.

Rite of Draconic Heritage
The symbol gains the supernatural senses of dragonkind, allowing her to sense enemies through more than visual cues. The symbol gains Blindsense out to 30 ft. She usually does not need to make Awareness checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of her blindsense ability, provided that she has line of effect to that creature.

Any opponent the symbol cannot see still has total concealment against her, and the symbol still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. The symbol is still denied her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures she cannot see.

Rite of Elemental Power
The symbol's body is hardened by the elements, and she becomes immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Rite of Fey Shadow
The symbol becomes a part of the faerie realm, and gains a +4 bonus on saves made against creatures of the animal, fey, or plant types. Additionally, a symbol may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment, including overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated.

Rite of Giant's Legacy
Becoming closer to the giants has enlarged the symbol, and her size increases to large. She takes a -1 penalty to Armor Class, a -1 penalty on attack rolls, and a -4 penalty on Hide check, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. Additionally, she gains a +2 natural armor bonus.
Blessing of the Precursors (Su): At 17th level, a symbol earns new mastery of her arcane legacy, as listed below.

Rite of Draconic Heritage
The symbol becomes as fearsome as a mighty dragon and can unsettle foes with her mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever the symbol attacks or charges. Creatures within a radius of 30 ft are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the symbol's level. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ˝ symbol level + symbol's Cha modifier) remains immune to the symbol's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. The symbol can ignore the frightful presence of dragons.

Rite of Elemental Power
The symbol embraces the might of the elements and becomes immune to poison and stunning.

Rite of Fey Shadow
Magic floods through the symbol, granting her eternal youth and beauty. The symbol no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. In addition, her existing damage reduction increases to DR 10/Cold Iron.

Rite of Giant's Legacy
The symbol has absorbed some of the regenerative powers of the giants. She gains Regeneration 5. Fire and acid deal normal damage to the symbol (unless she has energy resistance). If the symbol loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. She can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Arcane Transformation(Su): At 20th level, a symbol full realizes the benefits of her arcane legacy rite. She completes her transformation as shown below.

Rite of Draconic Heritage
The symbol becomes a member of the mighty dragons in body and mind, boasting their immortality for herself. The symbol's type changes to dragon and she no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred remain in place, but the symbol is effectively immortal. Additionally, the symbol gains DR 5/Magic.

Rite of Elemental Power
Elemental energy pulses through every inch of the symbol's being, as her type changes to elemental, with either the air, earth, fire, or water subtype, depending on her arcane legacy rite. Her fortification increases to 50%, and she is no longer required to eat, drink, or sleep, though she must still rest to recover spells.

Rite of Fey Shadow
The symbol shares the grace of the faeries, and her type changes to fey. She becomes effectively immortal, and can stun or blind foes within 30 ft. at a glance. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ˝ symbol level + symbol's Cha modifier) remains immune to this ability for 24 hours. On a failure, the creature is either permanently blinded, or stunned for 2d4 rounds, at the symbol's choosing. Activating this ability is a free action.

Rite of Giant's Legacy
The symbol becomes a true giant in terms of size, strength, and prowess. She gains the powerful build ability for her Large sized form, and can trample (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#trample) foes beneath her. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 10 + ˝ symbol level + symbol's Cha modifier) takes half damage on the trample. Additionally, her natural armor bonus increases by +2.

Lappy9000
2009-05-25, 02:04 AM
Symbol Spell List

0 Level Spells:
Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Flare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flare.htm): Dazzles one creature (-1 penalty on attack rolls).
Ghost Sound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghostSound.htm): Figment sounds.
Guidance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guidance.htm): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm): Object shines like a torch.
Mage Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageHand.htm): 5-pound telekinesis.
Message (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/message.htm): Whispered conversation at distance.
Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm): Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistance.htm): Subject gains +1 bonus on saving throws.
Touch of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfFatigue.htm): Touch attack fatigues target.

1st Level Spells:
Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm): Changes your appearance.
Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm): Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm): Your speed increases by 30 ft.
Feather Fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm): Objects or creatures fall slowly. .
Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/jump.htm): Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.
Longstrider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/longstrider.htm): Your speed increases by 10 ft.
Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm): Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm): Fog surrounds you.
Pass Without Trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwithoutTrace.htm): One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson): Humanoid creature halves in size.
Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield): Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage): Creates minor illusion of your design.
Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

2nd Level Spells:
Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm): 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustofwind.htm): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm): Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Levitate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/levitate.htm): Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Minor Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorImage.htm): As Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm), plus some sound.
Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm): Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8).'
Scare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scare.htm): Panics creatures of less than 6 HD.
See Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm): Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthandStone.htm): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Summon Monster II (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterII.htm): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

3rd Level Spells:
Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm): You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/level.
Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm): Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly
Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm): +1/four levels (max +5).
Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm): Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level
Keen Edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm): Doubles normal weapon’s threat range
Major Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm): As Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm), plus sound, smell and thermal effects
Meld into Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meldIntoStone.htm): You and your gear merge with stone.
Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm): Hampers vision and movement.
Stone Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Summon Monster III (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIII.htm): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Water Breathing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterBreathing.htm): Subjects can breathe underwater.

4th Level Spells:
Air Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm): Tentacles grapple all within 20 ft. spread.
Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWater.htm): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm): Teleports you short distance.
Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm): Subjects within cone flee for 1 round/level
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/GlobeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm): Stops 1st- through 3rd-level spell effects.
Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm): As Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm), but subject can attack and stay invisible.
Hallucinatory Terrain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallucinatoryTerrain.htm): Makes one type of terrain appear like another (field into forest, or the like).
Illusionary Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/illusionaryWall.htm): Wall, floor, or ceiling looks real, but anything can pass through.
Rusting Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rustingGrasp.htm): Your touch corrodes iron and alloys.
Summon Monster IV (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIV.htm): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

Lappy9000
2009-05-25, 02:11 AM
This is a re-vamp of a class that I made quite a while back. The original class is here [link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5344515)]

After a bit of playtesting, we found that:

Evocation spells stink.
More Physical Manifestations = More Awesome.
Arcane Legacies don't affect the class that much despite supposedly being pivotal to the symbol's power.
Too many spells that are too weak and aren't plentiful enough to be useful.

So, I instead decided to make a bunch of neat little powers that a symbol can use at-will. Any other spells that she gets are utilities that are very flexible since she has the entire list at her disposal. The fact that only the Arcane Legacies are offensive makes the symbol play a bit more like a warlock, but makes the crunch fit the fluff a little better.

Additional ideas include adding in a lessened duration for powers to fill in one of those dead levels.

Lappy9000
2009-05-26, 10:24 PM
There's gotta be some combination of awesome and broken within the class somewhere. I'd say it's worthy of a BUMP

Stycotl
2009-05-26, 11:46 PM
i would definitely lower the bab to 3/4, bump up the will save to good, drop the hit points to d8 or even d6, add listen, search, and spot to the skill list, and then reword the aura bonus (as of now, you have (+1) and x2 (+1), etc, where +1 equals a variable. i would look at the way the marshal's aura bonus is worded (i think that is the one i am remembering...), or something else and make it a little less confusing.

other than that, this is a very cool class that gives quite a range of utility. i almost want to give it access to 5th and 6th level spells as well, but i suppose i will wait to see if there are any glaring issues with that which i usually miss, that the playground can point out.

good job. aaron out.

Lappy9000
2009-05-27, 03:18 PM
i would definitely lower the bab to 3/4, bump up the will save to good, drop the hit points to d8 or even d6, add listen, search, and spot to the skill list, and then reword the aura bonus (as of now, you have (+1) and x2 (+1), etc, where +1 equals a variable. i would look at the way the marshal's aura bonus is worded (i think that is the one i am remembering...), or something else and make it a little less confusing.I totally agree about the aura bonuses. I'll get to work on fixing those.

Any reason for the lower HD and sense skills? The idea is to get a fighter with spells. I've always felt that most of the gish classes were wizards with combat prowess.


other than that, this is a very cool class that gives quite a range of utility. i almost want to give it access to 5th and 6th level spells as well, but i suppose i will wait to see if there are any glaring issues with that which i usually miss, that the playground can point out.We'll see about those 5th and 6th level spells. The Arcane Legacy Rites and the Physical Manifestations are the meat and potatoes of the class, while the auras and spells are just garnish.

Stycotl
2009-05-27, 03:22 PM
i suppose that if you keep it at 4th level spells, it might be doable to give him d10 hit dice and full bab. it still feels wrong to me, but the spells are honestly more powerful anyway, so it works balancewise. just feels weird to me.

Lappy9000
2009-05-27, 06:13 PM
i suppose that if you keep it at 4th level spells, it might be doable to give him d10 hit dice and full bab. it still feels wrong to me, but the spells are honestly more powerful anyway, so it works balancewise. just feels weird to me.The symbol has always been a pretty unique beast. I'm mostly concerned about the individual powers themselves.

Emong
2009-05-27, 07:20 PM
You should probably put a time limit on Metallic Ascendancy, and/or state that doesn't stack with itself.

Lappy9000
2009-05-27, 08:02 PM
You should probably put a time limit on Metallic Ascendancy, and/or state that doesn't stack with itself.Put in a clause that states the hit points last until another Arcane Legacy Power is used. That look good?

@Stycotl: Do you remember how the Marshal/Dragon Shaman auras are worded? I'm having difficulty finding them.

Stycotl
2009-05-27, 11:20 PM
1st-Arcane Legacy, Captivating Aura Bonus +1

5th-Captivating Aura Bonus +2

etc...

Captivating Aura (Su): A symbol is an avatar of arcane heritage, and her very presence captivates and inspires those around her. Captivating Auras allow the Symbol to add her Captivating Aura Bonus to certain rolls or attributes. Allies within 20 feet gain the same benefits. These may be activated, suppressed, or swapped as a Swift Action. Only one Aura may be active at a time. The Auras have no duration, though the symbol must be conscious. The number of Auras a symbol has access to is based on her level. The benefits of each aura increase every five levels.


Defiance: If the symbol or her allies within 20' are struck with a non-reach melee attack, the attacker takes energy damage equal to 2x her Captivating Aura Bonus of a chosen energy type (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic).

Discernment: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain a bonus to all Saving Throws equal to her Captivating Aura Bonus.

Exuberance: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain a rate of Fast Healing equal to her Captivating Aura Bonus when below half their total hit points.

Hostility: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to her Captivating Aura Bonus.

Livliness: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain a bonus to Initiative equal to her Captivating Aura Bonus.

Obstinance: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain Resistance 5x her Captivating Aura Bonus to a chosen energy type (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic).

Veracity: The symbol and all allies within 20' gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to her Captivating Aura Bonus.

***********

i'd phrase it something like this.

Lappy9000
2009-05-28, 12:53 AM
AwesomeI'm just gonna copy that, if'n ye don't mind. Thank ye muchly :smallbiggrin:

Also, I believe you made a comment about the spells being more powerful than the Arcane Legacy powers. That's intentional, since a symbol will only get a handful of spells per day, while the powers are pretty much at-will, despite a charge time.

There's some definite 4e influence here, but I wanted to make sure that the class is defined by more than just its powers.

Edit: Oh, and before someone points it out, I'm aware that Acid isn't an energy. I just think the "Acid falls under conjuring" thing is stupid. I will, however, gladly change the text if anyone has an issue with it.

Also changed the Final Transformation. A symbol can forsake their casting as they cast "Transformation" once per day.

The_Snark
2009-05-29, 07:35 PM
This looks fairly neat, so I'll offer up some commentary on the Arcane Legacies:

-Chromatic Ferocity seems underpowered compared to almost all the other legacies. It deals less damage than many, targets only a single creature and requires an attack roll, and deals energy damage. Its only redeeming feature seems to be that it can deal any type of energy damage... except that you don't get to determine the type, which pretty much negates that advantage. I'd boost the damage.

-Roar of the Drake: Is this an area effect? Single-target?

-Wings of the Wyvern: This doesn't seem very powerful compared to a lot of the other effects, although the movement is handy. Should probably specify whether or not your movement provokes attacks of opportunity. Maybe boost the damage a little bit...

-Adder's Kiss is really powerful at high levels. At low levels, it's not so bad, because the ability damaged is completely random. At level 20, when you're dealing an average of 25 ability damage, and 12 even on a failed save... yeah. 12 ability damage to anything is really nasty—it's capable of taking an enemy out of the fight completely if it hits a low score, and if it hits a high score then the enemy probably relied on it for something. And if they should fail their save, they're toast.

My inclination is to either make this Fort negates, or reduce the ability damage to 1d4/4 levels. Having a save-or-you-lose effect at high levels is fine, especially since it has a cooldown time, but enemies who make the save shouldn't be keeling over dead/unconscious.

-Dreamfell seems to be better than a lot of the other legacies, dealing the same damage as, say, Mammoth's Crush, and giving temporary hit points to boot. Not sure if that's because it's too powerful, or because the others aren't powerful enough... Should probably specify that temporary hit points don't stack. Maybe reduce the damage to 1d4/2 levels.

-Petal Blades is really cool. Um, not much to say about it balance-wise, except that you should specify a damage type if it has one. Slashing? Untyped?

-Boiling Brand and Clay Splatter: Do these require ranged touch attacks? Or are they targeted effects?

-Call the Elements: Do you choose the energy type each time you use the power, or do you have to choose when you pick it? Same question applies to Dragon's Breath, actually.

-Force of a Titan: Again, is this a single-target effect? Area? Also, should allow a Fortitude save to negate the stunning, or it's way too powerful.

-Mammoth Crush: This seems a little underpowered; it does less damage than Astral Hurl and has less range. I guess melee range might not be a disadvantage to a symbol with high Strength, but it still seems like it could use a little extra something.

-"Ranged melee attack"? :smalltongue: I'm guessing you meant ranged attack. Does a little more damage than Astral Hurl, but it's not a touch attack, so it seems pretty balanced.

They look pretty good in general. The Rite of Elemental Power seems to have much more powerful damaging abilities than most of the others, but it only has 1 area effect (a line, which isn't too useful) and little aside from damage, so I guess that might work out. The Draconic Heritate legacies are all average to weak, so some of them could maybe use a boost... Giant's Legacy and Fey Shadows both seem about right, barring the above issues.

Lappy9000
2009-05-29, 08:48 PM
This looks fairly neatThank you :smallsmile:

-Chromatic Ferocity seems underpowered compared to almost all the other legacies. It deals less damage than many, targets only a single creature and requires an attack roll, and deals energy damage. Its only redeeming feature seems to be that it can deal any type of energy damage... except that you don't get to determine the type, which pretty much negates that advantage. I'd boost the damage.Mmm, yes. Bumped up to 1d10.


-Roar of the Drake: Is this an area effect? Single-target?20' Radius. Even with prone, it's kinda weak. Bumped to 1d6.


-Wings of the Wyvern: This doesn't seem very powerful compared to a lot of the other effects, although the movement is handy. Should probably specify whether or not your movement provokes attacks of opportunity. Maybe boost the damage a little bit... Done and done. Increased to 1d8. Enemy just got smacked by giant freakin' dragon wings, so I'm going with no attack of opportunity.


--Adder's Kiss is really powerful at high levels. At low levels, it's not so bad, because the ability damaged is completely random. At level 20, when you're dealing an average of 25 ability damage, and 12 even on a failed save... yeah. 12 ability damage to anything is really nasty—it's capable of taking an enemy out of the fight completely if it hits a low score, and if it hits a high score then the enemy probably relied on it for something. And if they should fail their save, they're toast.

My inclination is to either make this Fort negates, or reduce the ability damage to 1d4/4 levels. Having a save-or-you-lose effect at high levels is fine, especially since it has a cooldown time, but enemies who make the save shouldn't be keeling over dead/unconscious. I figured that would be a problematic one. Changed the damage to 1d2 because everything works better if all the powers have the same progression.


-Dreamfell seems to be better than a lot of the other legacies, dealing the same damage as, say, Mammoth's Crush, and giving temporary hit points to boot. Not sure if that's because it's too powerful, or because the others aren't powerful enough... Should probably specify that temporary hit points don't stack. Maybe reduce the damage to 1d4/2 levels.(almost) Everything else is getting a boost, so I'll leave the damage the same. However, I added in the clause that was in Metallic Ascendancy.


-Petal Blades is really cool. Um, not much to say about it balance-wise, except that you should specify a damage type if it has one. Slashing? Untyped? Actually, it's already specified (slashing).


-Boiling Brand and Clay Splatter: Do these require ranged touch attacks? Or are they targeted effects?I'm going with regular melee attacks. Changed the untyped damage to bludgeoning.


-Call the Elements: Do you choose the energy type each time you use the power, or do you have to choose when you pick it? Same question applies to Dragon's Breath, actually.Excellent question: They pick it whenever they use the power. Went on ahead and gave Call the Elements sonic damage.


-Force of a Titan: Again, is this a single-target effect? Area? Also, should allow a Fortitude save to negate the stunning, or it's way too powerful.Ah, knew I forgot something. Stunning is pretty dang powerful (force damage is too, for that matter), so I lowered the damage to 1d4 and added in a Fortitude save.


-Mammoth Crush: This seems a little underpowered; it does less damage than Astral Hurl and has less range. I guess melee range might not be a disadvantage to a symbol with high Strength, but it still seems like it could use a little extra something.There, touch-attack greatsword :smallwink:


-"Ranged melee attack"? :smalltongue: I'm guessing you meant ranged attack. Does a little more damage than Astral Hurl, but it's not a touch attack, so it seems pretty balanced.Oui, fixed.

****

Thanks a ton for the help, I certainly appreciate the time you put into this.

JoshuaZ
2009-06-01, 05:59 PM
Not much is happening at levels 6,9,18 other than increases to saves and BAB. Maybe Maybe at those levels they should be able to gain an additional spell to their class list from the sor/wiz list?

Presumably it should be modeled after Ecletic Learning that the Beguiler has.
So at 6th level would gain any single level 1 spell from the sor/wiz list. Gain any single level 2 or lower spell from the list at 9. And gain any single level 3 or lower spell at 18. Spells picked myst also have no expensive material component or expensive focus.

(The last restriction is necessary to keep the Symbol casting spells without expensive parts.)

Lappy9000
2009-06-01, 11:13 PM
Not much is happening at levels 6,9,18 other than increases to saves and BAB.'Cept for those feats :smallwink:

I was actually most worried about levels 13 and 19.


Maybe Maybe at those levels they should be able to gain an additional spell to their class list from the sor/wiz list?

Presumably it should be modeled after Ecletic Learning that the Beguiler has.
So at 6th level would gain any single level 1 spell from the sor/wiz list. Gain any single level 2 or lower spell from the list at 9. And gain any single level 3 or lower spell at 18. Spells picked myst also have no expensive material component or expensive focus.Hmm...I'll chew on it, but I'm not sure how well it will go over, what with a symbol being able to cast any spell on the Symbol spell list without having to know or prepare it in advance. It was an attempt to give the class a little more versitality that they severely lacked during playtesting.

Of course, being able to select an additional spell would open up the door for all kinds of crazy junk. Polymorph is a level 4 spell, after all.


(The last restriction is necessary to keep the Symbol casting spells without expensive parts.)Of course; good foresight.

Thanks for the ideas......I'm gonna think about that one *ponders diligently*

Lappy9000
2009-10-04, 03:37 PM
Well, well, I've changed this class, hopefully for the last time, and I'm quite happy with the results. Changes include:
Lower Hit Dice (from d10 to d8). I might change this one.
No good saves.
Armored Mage altered to include light shields.
Captivating Aura dropped.
Added in the Spellrite feature.
Spell list altered and completed.
Spellcasting changed to prepared rather than spontaneous.
Streamlined the Physical Manifestations.
Added the Inheritance of the Ancients feature (helps balance out the saving throws).
Dead levels reduced from four to one!

I'm looking for some more critique, mostly because I'm having a hard time determining the power level of this thing...

Fako
2009-10-04, 05:00 PM
Overall, it looks good. It's obviously more powerful than the Ranger, but I'm not sure if it's as good as the Duskblade, so I'd stick it between those two in terms of power... There are a few concerning things however:

-First off, why do they substitute a language for one of their race's bonus languages? It seems pointless to me, especially considering this is the only feature of the class that (potentially) references Intelligence (well, besides skill points)... Why not just give them the language for free? IIRC, they're only worth 1 skill point...

-The first two levels are going to be INCREDIBLY hard to survive through. At first level, you have +0 in all saves, no spells, an ability that you can use every 2-12 rounds, and (if you keep an eye to the future) you won't be wearing any armor. Second level gives you an at-will spell and (possibly) a spell slot, but I don't see the situation being much better... Here's my suggestions:

-Give them at least one good save. I don't know of any other class without one. Probably Fortitude, but you could change it based on their Heritage... Either that, or move the Inheritance of the Ancients ability to first or second level, but that'd make this class decently dippable...

-Move Armored Mage (Light) to first level. All other hybrids that can use armor (Beguiler, Duskblade, Warmage, even Bard to an extent) gain it at level one to help them survive the front lines. If you're hesitant to do this, what about allowing them to add their CHA mod to AC at first level and (possibly) giving them a scaling armor progression (similar to the Monk)?

-Give them casting at 1st level. Even if it's just a 0 (granting them only bonus slots), any decent Symbol is going to try for a 12 in CHA, giving them one spell they can use when they desperately need it. It would also (theoretically) let them test which spells work best with their character, giving them a bit of insight when they gain Spell Rite at second level...

-The Symbol has the option of gaining wings at 3rd level, causing a drastic spike in power, especially if they're range-based (which is a good idea, considering their heritage abilities). I'd put a level restriction on this one, as it's just a bit too good for third level...

-Why do you have such a bizarre recharge time for the Arcane Legacy abilities? With how it's written, you'll normally get off only one each fight (considering the average recharge of 7 rounds). I'd personally change the recharge to 1d4 (normal for monstrous abilities) or allow each one you know to be once per encounter, thereby giving you a bit of a power boost each time you obtain one...

-Also on the subject of the Arcane Legacies, there are only 5 options, and you will know all of them at 16th level. Was this intentional?

-According to the table, your Reflex spikes to +8 at 13th level...

-I really like how you kept a separate capstone for each Heritage, but it's worth noting that the text for the Elemental capstone is a bit redundant. Immunity to criticals also makes you immune to precision-based damage (sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike, etc...)

----------

These are just my opinions, feel free to use, discard, mock relentlessly as you wish... :smallsmile:

Also, please don't take this as overly harsh criticism... I've been a fan of your work for a long time, and I'm only posting because I'd like to see this fleshed out to where I can use this once I (eventually) get to play... [/kiss up] :smallbiggrin:

Lappy9000
2009-10-04, 05:19 PM
First off, why do they substitute a language for one of their race's bonus languages? It seems pointless to me, especially considering this is the only feature of the class that (potentially) references Intelligence (well, besides skill points)... Why not just give them the language for free? IIRC, they're only worth 1 skill point...Prolly a copypasta error. It's supposed to be "in addition to" instead of "substituted for."


The first two levels are going to be INCREDIBLY hard to survive through. At first level, you have +0 in all saves, no spells, an ability that you can use every 2-12 rounds, and (if you keep an eye to the future) you won't be wearing any armor. Second level gives you an at-will spell and (possibly) a spell slot, but I don't see the situation being much better... Here's my suggestions:

Probably Fortitude, but you could change it based on their HeritageBRILLIANT

No, like seriously, you don't even know. I've had the hardest time trying to determine the saves, because no single save seems to fit in well with the class, and giving them all good saves seems like a bit too much. You've just solved that little problem :smallcool:


-Either that, or move the Inheritance of the Ancients ability to first or second level, but that'd make this class decently dippable...Quite Dippable indeed. I'll use your last idea.


-Move Armored Mage (Light) to first level. All other hybrids that can use armor (Beguiler, Duskblade, Warmage, even Bard to an extent) gain it at level one to help them survive the front lines. If you're hesitant to do this, what about allowing them to add their CHA mod to AC at first level and (possibly) giving them a scaling armor progression (similar to the Monk)?The armor thing was there to help keep dead levels to a minimum (a problem with previous versions). I like the Charisma bonus, and it fits in with the fluff. I'll see what I can do.


-Give them casting at 1st level. Even if it's just a 0 (granting them only bonus slots), any decent Symbol is going to try for a 12 in CHA, giving them one spell they can use when they desperately need it. It would also (theoretically) let them test which spells work best with their character, giving them a bit of insight when they gain Spell Rite at second level...I think they're quite set now, given your previous suggestions.


-The Symbol has the option of gaining wings at 3rd level, causing a drastic spike in power, especially if they're range-based (which is a good idea, considering their heritage abilities). I'd put a level restriction on this one, as it's just a bit too good for third level...Yeeeah, I was worried about that one. It seemed strange to give just one of the manifestations a restriction when none of the others did. Ooh! I know, I'll make it scale each time you take the manifestation, giving you some flight by 6th, and better flight if you take it again.


-Why do you have such a bizarre recharge time for the Arcane Legacy abilities? With how it's written, you'll normally get off only one each fight (considering the average recharge of 7 rounds). I'd personally change the recharge to 1d4 (normal for monstrous abilities) or allow each one you know to be once per encounter, thereby giving you a bit of a power boost each time you obtain one...I was unaware that recharge times were done at all, really. Now that you've given me a baseline to work with, I'll see what I can do.


--Also on the subject of the Arcane Legacies, there are only 5 options, and you will know all of them at 16th level. Was this intentional?Kinda, especially since it doesn't progress into 20th, or into Epic for that matter. There's a vague theme of accomplishing everything your rite has to offer by the time you become near-Epic.


--According to the table, your Reflex spikes to +8 at 13th level...:smalltongue:


-I really like how you kept a separate capstone for each Heritage, but it's worth noting that the text for the Elemental capstone is a bit redundant. Immunity to criticals also makes you immune to precision-based damage (sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike, etc...)I'll fix that with haste!


-These are just my opinions, feel free to use, discard, mock relentlessly as you wish... :smallsmile:And they're quite good, and very useful opinions.


-Also, please don't take this as overly harsh criticism... I've been a fan of your work for a long time, and I'm only posting because I'd like to see this fleshed out to where I can use this once I (eventually) get to play... [/kiss up] :smallbiggrin:I'm honored! Be sure to tell me how it plays :smallcool:

Lappy9000
2009-10-04, 06:44 PM
Cool beans! At Fako's suggestion:

Ancestral Familiarity at level 1 grants an additional bonus language, a Good Save of your choice (or better Hit Dice), and a bonus to Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Recondite Grace allows for Charisma bonuses to be added to Armor Class, depending if you wear the right armor.
Wings now require a bit of investment if you want the full shebang (you get 6 of them; spending 3 on 60 ft of flight isn't a bad deal in my mind).

Zaydos
2009-10-04, 07:24 PM
Just a quick comment:
Having your HD size increased from d8 to d10 is not worth having one less good save, at least not on average.

I'll have to read more of the class before I say more but the idea looks interesting to say the least.

Fako
2009-10-04, 07:29 PM
The changes look great! However, there are three things worth pointing out...



Ancestral Familiarity at level 1 grants an additional bonus language, a Good Save of your choice (or better Hit Dice), and a bonus to Knowledge (arcana) checks.


1 - As written, it doesn't change the save to Good, but adds the save bonus to it, meaning a Draconic Heritage Symbol will get a +18 to their Will save at 20th level... While this is a bit wordy, I'd recommend something like this:

Ancestral Familiarity: Symbols are more familiar with the bases of magic than most people, gaining bonuses from their unique knowledge. A Symbol adds her class level as an insight bonus on all Knowledge(Arcana) checks. She also gains a new language, as well as a bonus to either her hit dice or one of her saving throws, as listed below.


Rite of Draconic Heritage: The Symbol learns Draconic, and her base Will Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level)

Rite of Elemental Power: The Symbol learns one of the following: Aquan, Auran, Ingan, or Terran, and her Hit Dice increases to d10.

Rite of Fey Shadow: The Symbol learns Sylvan, and her base Reflex Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level)

Rite of Giant's Legacy: The Symbol learns Giant, and her base Reflex Save changes to the "good" progression (2 + 1/2 Symbol level)

Like I said, it's wordy, but there's no way to "misinterpret it"... Also, would it be better to give the Elemental Power legacy the Improved Toughness feat for free? That way they always get bonus HP, even if they roll bad...

2 - While the table shows the changes to Armored Mage, the text description has not been updated to reflect it...

3 - How exactly is the concealment from "Faded Form" obtained? Is there any way to overcome it (such as Glitterdust or True Seeing)? Does it work while the Symbol is asleep or helpless?

Lappy9000
2009-10-04, 08:35 PM
Like I said, it's wordy, but there's no way to "misinterpret it"... Also, would it be better to give the Elemental Power legacy the Improved Toughness feat for free? That way they always get bonus HP, even if they roll bad...Done and done. I think I'm gonna stick with the Hit Dice, however, extra HP would make a good Physical Manifestation


Rite of Elemental Power: Rite of Elemental Power: The Symbol learns one of the following: Aquan, Auran, Ingan, or Terran, and she adds her symbol level to her hit point total when determining hit points.
Whatcha think?


While the table shows the changes to Armored Mage, the text description has not been updated to reflect it...Fixed.


How exactly is the concealment from "Faded Form" obtained? Is there any way to overcome it (such as Glitterdust or True Seeing)? Does it work while the Symbol is asleep or helpless?As the Blur spell. It's fixed now.

Thanks for making the class that much better! :smallbiggrin:

Solaris
2009-10-04, 09:01 PM
Frikkin' awesome, Lappy. Howevah, I'm thinking that you might wish to change it so the Giant Legacy gives a good Fort instead of a good Ref like the Fey.

Lappy9000
2009-10-04, 09:11 PM
Frikkin' awesome, Lappy. Howevah, I'm thinking that you might wish to change it so the Giant Legacy gives a good Fort instead of a good Ref like the Fey.Thank 'jou! :smallcool:

And it should be fixed now.

Tavar
2009-10-04, 10:26 PM
This looks like all kinds of awesome. Now I just need to find a game that allows homebrew....

Also, before I forget: YAY!!! More Fey-themed stuff. There really isn't enough of it. Plus, Petal Blades is awesome.

Solaris
2009-10-04, 10:40 PM
Mine will. [/shameless shilling]

Lappy9000
2009-10-05, 12:08 AM
Mine will. [/shameless shilling]Shill away my friend, shill away.


This looks like all kinds of awesome. Now I just need to find a game that allows homebrew....

Also, before I forget: YAY!!! More Fey-themed stuff. There really isn't enough of it. Plus, Petal Blades is awesome.Much obliged!

Glad you like the fey themes. I'm quite happy that it turned out as a sort of build-your-own gish, which was my thrice-updated plan :smallcool:
(still needs some clean-up, though)

Tavar
2009-10-05, 03:27 PM
Quick question: when you say "Altered Appearance (Automatic)" does this mean that all symbols automatically have this quality, or does it take up your first manifestation? Or something else entirely?

Also, for the bladed body, you probably want to mention that the damage is as normal for a creature of it's size.

Lappy9000
2009-10-05, 09:28 PM
Quick question: when you say "Altered Appearance (Automatic)" does this mean that all symbols automatically have this quality, or does it take up your first manifestation? Or something else entirely?Your answer lies in the Physical Manifestation text itself:

After some time, that very magical power has begun to affect the symbol’s physical appearance. At 3rd level, a symbol picks a single manifestation, gaining Altered Appearance automatically.


Also, for the bladed body, you probably want to mention that the damage is as normal for a creature of it's size.Will do, Chief.

Lappy9000
2010-07-07, 11:17 PM
At Roland's permission, last update, I swear!

Major overhaul and the class now feels like it was meant to be. My goal was to make a gish class that truly feels like it embraces arcane and martial powers alike (but is a fighter with spells more than a wizard who can fight). The other goal was the ability to pick a path and make a fairly unique class depending on the one you chose. Changes include pretty much everything, but keep in mind this will technically be for another system (Fax's d20: Rebirth), so the power level might be a little wonky.

Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly! :smallcool:

Lix Lorn
2010-07-08, 02:50 AM
I like it!
^_^

(Although, you mispelled/typoed ignan in the elemental power description)

Merk
2010-07-08, 07:07 AM
It's not so powerful that one good save will imbalance it, IMO.

Lix Lorn
2010-07-08, 07:09 AM
If you look at the different things-I'm gonna say paths, I don't remember the terms-each one gives you a certain good save. Fey gives Reflex, Giant gives Fort, and... is it dragons give will? :smallconfused:

Also, another question:
she adds half her symbol level to her hit point total when determining hit points.
Is that to your total, or to each hit die? If it's the former, it's kinda useless at high levels. (Woo, ten more hp for my level twenty...) If it's the latter, it might be a bit strong.

Lappy9000
2010-07-08, 02:20 PM
I like it!
^_^

(Although, you mispelled/typoed ignan in the elemental power description)Thank you! Fixed.


It's not so powerful that one good save will imbalance it, IMO.Thanks for the insight :smallsmile:


If you look at the different things-I'm gonna say paths, I don't remember the terms-each one gives you a certain good save. Fey gives Reflex, Giant gives Fort, and... is it dragons give will? :smallconfused:Graceful fey get Reflex, tough giants get Fortitude, hardened elementals get extra hit points, and highly magical intelligent lizards of legend get Will. Makes sense to me.


Also, another question:
Is that to your total, or to each hit die? If it's the former, it's kinda useless at high levels. (Woo, ten more hp for my level twenty...) If it's the latter, it might be a bit strong.It's to your total. An extra 10 hit points at level 20 might not be that great, but it's in addition to the bonus 91 hit points you would have earned prior.

Thanks for the feedback. Anymore would be graciously appreciated! :smallcool:

Fako
2010-07-08, 03:45 PM
The changes look nice, although I am a bit sad to see the supernatural abilities go... Few concerns for you:

- If you're going for d20r, you'll need to change your class skills. D20r uses skill sets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107629) to determine class skills, allowing for a bit of flexibility... also, you'll need to list the amount of Prowess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519) a Symbol gets... Bard and Ranger both get 4 per level, so I think the Symbol would be close to that...

- I like the new 1/2 level to HP for the Elemental Rite, but you contradicted yourself with your last post... applying it to the HP Total means it doesn't stack; adding it to the Hit Die rolls would allow it to stack. It may be a bit strong (as Lix Lorn said), but I think it's balanced by the fact you get no good saves...

-One more thing to consider for d20r is that you have access to "average" progressions for saving throws... just in case you wanted to give them a secondary save on their rites...

- A 5th level Symbol who chose Elemental Power can make any rogue cry... Complete immunity to flanking is for much higher levels. I'd recommend giving it Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, that way there's at least some way for the Thieves Guild to get their loot back...

- The 5th level Giant's Legacy effectively gives them Powerful Build, and the 11th level increases their size. As written, they currently stack, instead of overlapping (which I'm guessing was the intent, based on the capstone). A sentence at the end of the 11th level ability is the simplest fix...

- The 17th level Fey Rite stops the aging process, but you don't gain immortality until level 20? If so, you'll want to steal a line from the Druid's Timeless Body feature:

Bonuses still accrue, and the Symbol still dies of old age when her time is up.
Provides incentive to get those last three levels...

---------------

All in all, looks great! I like most of the changes (still not happy about Armored Mage at 2nd level, but it does make a bit of sense...) one suggestion though: They have a limited spell list, and a very diminished number of castings per day; why not allow them to cast spontaneously? In earlier builds you had the abilities from your Legacy as well as the infini-casts (if I'm remembering right), which helped to offset spell preparation... but now that those are gone?

As always, take what you will, leave what you hate... just my opinions :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2010-07-08, 04:54 PM
It's to your total. An extra 10 hit points at level 20 might not be that great, but it's in addition to the bonus 91 hit points you would have earned prior.
Ahh... could you specify that this is a boost AT EACH LEVEL? I didn't get that.

blackspeeker
2010-07-09, 01:14 AM
- If you're going for d20r, you'll need to change your class skills. D20r uses skill sets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107629) to determine class skills, allowing for a bit of flexibility... also, you'll need to list the amount of Prowess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519) a Symbol gets... Bard and Ranger both get 4 per level, so I think the Symbol would be close to that...


If I may answer for him he made two different versions, one for d20r and one for 3.5, the d20r version is in his lords of avramir thread, but he hasnt updated the one for d20r yet.

Lappy9000
2010-07-10, 02:03 AM
If I may answer for him he made two different versions, one for d20r and one for 3.5, the d20r version is in his lords of avramir thread, but he hasnt updated this one for d20r yet.Yessir. I find that 3.5 versions get more feedback when posted on their own, since not too many people are using d20r.


The changes look nice, although I am a bit sad to see the supernatural abilities go... Ah, sorry, but this is how I always intended the class to be, but only just got the inspiration to finish.



Ahh... could you specify that this is a boost AT EACH LEVEL? I didn't get that.

- I like the new 1/2 level to HP for the Elemental Rite, but you contradicted yourself with your last post... applying it to the HP Total means it doesn't stack; adding it to the Hit Die rolls would allow it to stack. It may be a bit strong (as Lix Lorn said), but I think it's balanced by the fact you get no good saves...Thank you, and hey, yeah, I totally didn't understand Lix Lorn there. The symbol gets a hp boost at each level.


-One more thing to consider for d20r is that you have access to "average" progressions for saving throws... just in case you wanted to give them a secondary save on their rites...That...is a fantastic idea.


- A 5th level Symbol who chose Elemental Power can make any rogue cry... Complete immunity to flanking is for much higher levels. I'd recommend giving it Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, that way there's at least some way for the Thieves Guild to get their loot back...Yeah, wasn't quite sure to place that one. I'll mix them around a bit.


- The 5th level Giant's Legacy effectively gives them Powerful Build, and the 11th level increases their size. As written, they currently stack, instead of overlapping (which I'm guessing was the intent, based on the capstone). A sentence at the end of the 11th level ability is the simplest fix... Thank you, I shall definitely clarify.


- The 17th level Fey Rite stops the aging process, but you don't gain immortality until level 20? If so, you'll want to steal a line from the Druid's Timeless Body feature:

Bonuses still accrue, and the Symbol still dies of old age when her time is up.
Provides incentive to get those last three levels...Hrmm, seems I messed up there. I'll clean it up.


All in all, looks great! I like most of the changes (still not happy about Armored Mage at 2nd level, but it does make a bit of sense...) one suggestion though: They have a limited spell list, and a very diminished number of castings per day; why not allow them to cast spontaneously? In earlier builds you had the abilities from your Legacy as well as the infini-casts (if I'm remembering right), which helped to offset spell preparation... but now that those are gone?Issues with dipping and the fact that they're a martial class first, caster second. Honestly, the at-will casting was thrown in there last second on earlier versions ;;>>

I've always thought that the old powers were awkward but was at a loss as to what to replace them with. Thanks, though, to everyone for your opinions, and gimme any other thoughts you may have!

Gorgondantess
2010-07-10, 02:46 AM
Hmmm... well, I like it. It's a good premise. However, I think it could use a little tweaking. As is, it's essentially an arcane version of a paladin. Paladins aren't very good. What sort of tier were you aiming for?- this one looks like... mid tier 4, probably.

A few things:

*Dead Levels: 6, 12, 15, 18. These need something. Nobody likes dead levels.

*Arcane Legacy lines: these could use some sprucing up. At some levels, you get fun and interesting stuff, like powerful build, blindsense, regeneration... and at others, you get stuff like immunity to sleep/paralysis. Really? Nobody cares. I wouldn't look forwards to that level- would you? Beyond that, the elemental power gets at 11th level what the draconic heritage gets at 5th level. This should just not happen. Go ahead and keep the immunity stuff, but give something else as well.
For some suggestions, the draconic heritage could give things like natural armor, spell resistance, and increased spellcasting ability, the elemental power could attach elemental damage to melee attacks, maybe give a swim/fly/burrow/bonus to land speed, the fey heritage might add enchantment/illusion spells to the spell list (hell, every line could stand to add a few unique spells to the spell list- I'd strongly advise that) or give some cool stealth abilities, maybe even slight build... and as is the giant line is pretty good.
Just for reference, the abilities that (in my opinion) could definitely use some sprucing up:
Inheritance: Draconic, maybe Fey
Supernatural: Elemental, Fey
Blessing: Elemental, maybe fey (DR is just kinda boring, and not as powerful as it's cracked up to be)
Arcane: Draconic, maybe Elemental

Also, the Arcane Transformation for draconic heritage is just lame. DR 5/magic is ridiculously easy to overcome, and when it's not being overcome, you're probably dealing with a very, very heavy hitter, and DR/5 just isn't going to overcome it.

*Might want to give proficiency with heavy armor with armored mage (heavy)- especially since at that level it's not too much out of the bank just to use mithral full plate as opposed to normal full plate.

Lappy9000
2010-07-10, 09:43 AM
Hmmm... well, I like it. It's a good premise. However, I think it could use a little tweaking. As is, it's essentially an arcane version of a paladin. Paladins aren't very good. What sort of tier were you aiming for?- this one looks like... mid tier 4, probably.

A few things:

[QUOTE=Gorgondantess;8890405]*Dead Levels: 6, 12, 15, 18. These need something. Nobody likes dead levels.I do. Besides, they're pseudo dead levels 'cause you get feats at every one.


For some suggestions, the draconic heritage could give things like natural armor, spell resistance, and increased spellcasting ability, the elemental power could attach elemental damage to melee attacks, maybe give a swim/fly/burrow/bonus to land speed, the fey heritage might add enchantment/illusion spells to the spell list (hell, every line could stand to add a few unique spells to the spell list- I'd strongly advise that) or give some cool stealth abilities, maybe even slight build... and as is the giant line is pretty good.Did this suggestion take into account the Manifest Arcana abilities? A symbol already can get some of those powers. Although the extra spells idea isn't a bad one (it was actually how the first version functioned)


*Might want to give proficiency with heavy armor with armored mage (heavy)- especially since at that level it's not too much out of the bank just to use mithral full plate as opposed to normal full plate.That was supposed to have been added in already. I'll fix it.

Gorgondantess
2010-07-10, 01:39 PM
I do. Besides, they're pseudo dead levels 'cause you get feats at every one.
You do? Really?... Well, alright.


Did this suggestion take into account the Manifest Arcana abilities? A symbol already can get some of those powers. Although the extra spells idea isn't a bad one (it was actually how the first version functioned)
Well, the fly speed and bonus to land speed, though I'd consider the others.


That was supposed to have been added in already. I'll fix it.

I figured, but never hurts to point it out.:smallamused:

Zeta Kai
2010-07-10, 01:46 PM
Lappy, please give this class more skill points. We all know that 2+INT is never enough, unless it is a Tier 1 class, & even then, it feels like missing out on part of the game.

Lappy9000
2010-07-10, 05:33 PM
You do? Really?... Well, alright.Actually, yeah. I tend to subconsciously avoid classes that fill the tables to maximum capacity 'cause they usually have way too much going at once for me to want to bother. There's nothing wrong at not having dead levels, but adding in minor abilities just to say that there aren't dead levels (especially when you still get feats on them), just seems unnecessary and clutters up a class that already gets a good number of features.


Well, the fly speed and bonus to land speed, though I'd consider the others.Oh, I'm certainly going to.


I figured, but never hurts to point it out.:smallamused:And I appreciate it!


Lappy, please give this class more skill points. We all know that 2+INT is never enough, unless it is a Tier 1 class, & even then, it feels like missing out on part of the game.Not so much in d20, since you get your class level added to class skills. Really helps out the martial classes.

Hrm, I'm gonna put up the d20r version, just for good measure. It's supposed to be on par with Fax's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551).

Gorgondantess
2010-07-10, 08:46 PM
Actually, yeah. I tend to subconsciously avoid classes that fill the tables to maximum capacity 'cause they usually have way too much going at once for me to want to bother. There's nothing wrong at not having dead levels, but adding in minor abilities just to say that there aren't dead levels (especially when you still get feats on them), just seems unnecessary and clutters up a class that already gets a good number of features.
Well, what I generally like to do is tag "dead" levels onto levels that gain a new spell level, or something along those lines. I suppose tagging it onto feat levels works, though.


Oh, I'm certainly going to.

And I appreciate it!
Good! I think the class really has a lot of potential.:smallbiggrin:

sazzer
2010-12-18, 02:18 PM
Is the first post the finished version of this class? Because I see one of your updates you said about dropping the hit dice from D10 to D8, but can't see anywhere where you raised it to D10 again yet the first post lists D10 for hit dice...

Vaynor
2010-12-18, 05:56 PM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.