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SurvivorX
2009-05-25, 03:54 AM
So, in the game that I run (which uses sort of a grotesque hybrid of 3.0 and 3.5 rules), a few of the players were complaining that battles are a little too tedious-you just roll a d20 and add a number, and that's how you attack, theres no room for choosing how you attack or defend in a given fight, you just roll dice until your enemy dies. I have to say I'm inclined to agree – and it's an obvious detriment to our game all around. My players like their roleplaying – dicerolling, not so much.

So, I've been working to come up with a new system for attack rolls that is a bit more complex, but allows for more roleplaying and strategy. Obviously this means there's a lot more there to break, so I'm needing help poring over it to sure it's mostly balanced. I say mostly because all my players are really good about playing for fun and not gaming the system, though the fighter will take an unfair advantage in a heartbeat if he's given the chance...

I've run all the numbers and stuff through a spreadsheet and so far it looks like it could work, but I'm sure there's a million holes in it that I can't see, so I figured I'd put it up here and see how many holes other people can find for me to fix! :)

Anyways, this new system I've come up with mainly revolves around “Defensive Stances”. There's four stances: Full Attack, Block, Parry, and Dodge.

Full Attack: You focus almost entirely on attacking the enemy, and pay little or no attention to defending yourself, instead relying almost completely on your armor to protect you. A Barbarian in a rage cannot use any other stance than this.
Block: You focus your defense around blocking enemy blows with your shield. Only an option, obviously, if you have a shield.
Parry: You split your attentions between attacking the enemy, and deflecting their blows with your weapon. This can be used even if you are fighting unarmed.
Dodge: You focus primarily on evading enemy attacks. Since this strategy revolves around evading blows rather than deflecting or blocking them, it's a far better stance when faced with touch attacks.

This determines your Defense score, and also has some effect on your attacking ability.

To find your Defense score, you use this system:
Full Attack: 4 + 1/2 your Level + your Armor bonus
Block: 4 + 3/4 your Level + 3/4 your Armor bonus + your Shield bonus
Parry: 4 + 1/2 your Level + 3/4 your Armor bonus + 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus
Dodge: 4 + 1/2 your Level + 1/2 your Armor bonus + 1/2 your Reflex Save
All numbers are rounded down.

Example: X the Rogue uses the Dodge defensive stance. He is Level 10, has Leather Armor, and a Reflex save of +10. His total Defense score would be 4+5+1+5, totalling a Defense score of 15.
Example: Y the Fighter uses the Parry defensive stance. He is Level 10, and has Full Plate Armor. His total Defense score would be 4+5+6+5, totalling a Defense score of 20.
Example: Z the Barbarian uses the Full Attack stance. He is Level 10, and has Hide Armor. His total Defense score would be 4+5+3, totalling a Defense score of 12.

Your basic Attack score is also affected by your Defensive stance. First off, there's a stat called your Modified Attack Bonus (I call it MAB here, and since Melee Attack Bonus is pretty much thrown out entirely in this system, MAB refers to Modified Attack Bonus.)

Full Attack: MAB = Base Attack Bonus
Block/Dodge: MAB = 3/4 Base Attack Bonus
Parry: MAB = 1/2 Base Attack Bonus
These are shortened to FA, B/D, and P attack scores.

From here, you add your Strength score (As usual, you multiply by 1.5 for a two-handed weapon, and by .5 for a light weapon). This is your base Attack score with this weapon. Weapon Finesse, as always, changes this for your Dexterity score (no changes for two-handed or light weapons)

Example: X has a Rapier and the Weapon Finesse feat, and +3 mod to Dexterity. His FA attack score is 10, his B/D attack score is 8, and his P attack score is 6.
Example: Y has a Longsword (he uses it one-handed) and a +2 mod to Strength. His FA attack score is 12, his B/D attack score is 9, and his P attack score is 7.
Example: Z has a Greataxe and a +4 mod to Strength. His FA attack score is 16, his B/D attack score is 13, and his P attack score is 11.

All the usual modifiers apply. You get +1 for Weapon Focus, +whatever for Favored Enemy, and so on. Masterwork weapons work differently: I'll explain them in detail later.

These scores are all semi-fixed. Your defense scores remains the same for you unless the derivative stats change. Your attack scores remain the same for that particular attack type unless the derivative stats change (However, the same character might have different scores for his Longsword than for his Greataxe, and these scores have to be figured out for each weapon.)

At this point, everything is fairly simple once you get in-game. You've already calculated your attack and defense scores, and unless you change weapons or armor, level up, or get buffed, these aren't going to change. But after this part is where it gets a little complex.

When you attack, you decide whether you're going to Swing or Thrust (As a general rule, you cannot Swing with a spear or lance, and you cannot Thrust with a bludgeon or axe – however the DM decides what a weapon can or cannot do, since there are things like halberds and swords which can do both). You roll a die, and add it to your attack score, and the type of die you roll is determined by whether you Swing or Thrust, and your opponent's defensive stance:
{table=head]
Attack Type|
Full Attack|
Block|
Parry|
Dodge|Flat-Footed

Swing | 1d10 | 1d8 | 1d8 | 1d6 | 1d10

Stab | 1d10 | 1d4 | 1d4 | 1d8 | 1d12[/table]

Then you compare the result to your target's Defense score.
If the result is LOWER than the enemy's Defense: Nothing happens. Your attack glanced off their armor, shield or weapon, or they dodged it, or your attack just missed altogether.
If the result is EQUAL to the enemy's Defense: Your attack damages the equipment that the enemy is using to attempt to ward off your blows. If they are using the Parry stance, your attack deals damage to their weapon. If they are using the Block stance, your attack deals damage to their shield. Otherwise, it deals damage to their armor. Apply hardness as normal. If they do not have armor or a weapon or whatever got hit, it deals damage to them as normal.
If the result is HIGHER than the enemy's Defense: Your attack damages the enemy as normal.

EXAMPLE: X attacks Z. His Dodge attack score is 8, and Z's Defense score using Full Attack is 12. X rolls 1d10 and gets a 4. This total of 12 is equal to the Defense score of 12, so the attack deals 1d6 damage to Z's armor.

If you roll as high as it is possible to roll for the die you had, you get to roll again and add that to your attack roll. If the total is then higher than 2 times your enemy's Defense score, you managed to get a critical hit. If you roll as high as it is possible to roll, but your attack score is higher than 2 times the Defense score BEFORE you add in the second die roll, you not only score a critical hit, but knock the enemy off-balance. They then become flat-footed until their next turn.

EXAMPLE: Y attacks X. His Parry attack score is 7, and X's Defense score using Dodge is 15. Y Stabs at him, and adds 1d8, getting an 8. The result is 15, and this is equal, but since it is the highest possible roll, he gets an additional 1d8. He rolls a 6, bringing it to 21 against 15. The attack is not enough to score a critical hit, but it does hit X for normal damage.

Crit ranges have changed. Instead of 19-20/x2 or whatever, weapons now read +A/xB. B is, as usual, the multiplier of the amount of damage you do. But A is how much easier it is to strike a critical. You can be A amount short of the twice the enemy's Defense score and still score that critical hit. So if you use a +3/x2 weapon, and the enemy's Defense is 10, you score a critical hit on a 17 attack score instead of the 20 it would usually require. Weapons that are normally a 19-20 crit range have no special properties anymore, but weapons with an 18-20 crit range now have +1 to their crit range. Improved Critical, Keen weapons, and all of that now add +1 to the crit range also instead of just doubling it. So, a Keen Rapier used with Improved Critical would be +3/x2. Thrust attacks also gain a +1 to their critical range.

Masterwork Weapons:
Masterwork weapons are now a bit more complex than simply “If it's Masterwork, it's +1 to attack”. There are a lot of ways in which a weapon can be well-built. To represent this, Masterwork weapons have a wide variety of possible bonuses that they can add. These include:

+1 to attack
+1 to damage
+1 Crit range
+2 Hardness
+3 Hit Points
or the weapon can Thrust or Swing normally, even if it normally couldn't (an axe/bludgeon is assumed to have a sharp spike at the end that you can thrust with, or a spear/lance has a bladed haft that you can swing with. This characteristic is not available for weapons that already can do both).

If a weapon has more than one of these characteristics, the masterwork portion costs double for each additional characteristic (so +1 attack, +2 Hardness and +1 crit would be +1200 to cost.) Weapons cannot have bonuses to both attack and damage at the same time, nor can they have two of the same bonus (so no +2 crit ranges just from being Masterwork).

Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Weapons:
When fighting with two weapons, you use four less dice categories when adding to your attack score with the weapon in your off-hand, and two less dice categories when adding to your attack score with the weapon in your dominant hand. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces these penalties by one dice category. If the weapon in your off-hand is light, that reduces the penalties by the same amount. If this would reduce the dice-category below 1d4, you simply use your straight attack score for that weapon.

Ranged Attacks
Ranged Attacks use the same system as outlined above, with a few exceptions.

Obviously, Dexterity bonuses are used instead of Strength bonuses. You cannot Parry with a ranged weapon, except with thrown weapons like a dagger or throwing axe. All attacks are assumed to be a Thrust – but if the enemy is Parrying, they lose their one-half Base Attack Bonus modifier to their Defense score, unless they have the Deflect Arrows feat (which now works even if they are holding a weapon – however they only add 1/4 of their BAB instead of 1/2).

Other Rules
This system is still in-construction. I'm sure there are a million and one magic effects and so on that I've overlooked that can break this system like a cracker, and later I'll go poring through the books and search out every spell effect or magic item that could allow an unusual advantage and start nerfing/buffing everything that needs it. For now I just want to see how the basic system plays. What do you guys think – any glaring holes?

Wandiya
2009-05-25, 05:09 AM
{table=head]
Attack Type|
Full Attack|
Block|
Parry|
Dodge|Flat-Footed

Swing | 1d10 | 1d8 | 1d8 | 1d6 | 1d10

Stab | 1d10 | 1d4 | 1d4 | 1d8 | 1d12[/table]
you have a better chance of stabbing someone if you are flat-footed or if the target is flat-footed?

lesser_minion
2009-05-25, 05:25 AM
The columns represent defensive stance, the rows represent attack form.

It's an interesting system, although it seems a little more complicated than something I'd be prepared to use in the game. I was originally thinking of trying to reduce the opportunity cost of special attack forms rather than introducing stances and the like - this has the effect of making disarm, stun and grapple attacks much more common.

unosarta
2009-05-25, 09:33 AM
The columns represent defensive stance, the rows represent attack form.

It's an interesting system, although it seems a little more complicated than something I'd be prepared to use in the game. I was originally thinking of trying to reduce the opportunity cost of special attack forms rather than introducing stances and the like - this has the effect of making disarm, stun and grapple attacks much more common.

if i understand you correctly [and you understand correctly], then you roll a d4 for hitting someone while they are in Parrying and Blocking stances? so then, with a keen rapier [+3/x2] and thrusting, you will always threaten, and always crit? is that intentional?

lesser_minion
2009-05-25, 10:25 AM
I don't know how the OP is handling crits, but I'm assuming that that isn't the case, as the idea seems to be that stabbing attacks are weak against parrying and blocking.

It seems a little odd that it's easier to parry a stabbing attack than to parry a swing, though. If the sword can be stuck in the way of an attack safely (both longswords and katanas can) then it should parry a sweeping attack better than a stabbing one.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-25, 10:30 AM
{table=head]
Attack Type|
Full Attack|
Block|
Parry|
Dodge|Flat-Footed

Swing | 1d10 | 1d8 | 1d8 | 1d6 | 1d10

Stab | 1d10 | 1d4 | 1d4 | 1d8 | 1d12[/table]

Basically, (As lesser_minion pointed out), this is rather backwards. A single thrust is harder to parry and easier to dodge, as it aims at a single small point on the target. Blocking (with a shield) would be quite effective against it, however.

SurvivorX
2009-05-25, 02:08 PM
Unosarta: Not quite. That means you always get an extra die to your attack roll. It has to be greater than twice the defense score, though, before it counts as a critical hit. This means, however, that you need to have a much higher basic attack score than your opponent's Defense score, which probably means it's about a Level 10 fighting a Level 5 or so (or similar difference), and when there's such a disparity in levels, it's going to be a fairly one-sided battle anyways. After all, if you're a highly skilled rapier fencer and your opponent is an inexperienced combatant, obviously you're going to run circles around him and make him look like a joke.


lesser_minion and djinn_in_tonic: That's true. I was meaning for stabbing attacks to be harder to execute in general, but give a better chance for critical hits and against flatfooted foes (basically a "I've got the advantage! HA! *stab*" sort of maneuver), but what you say makes sense - perhaps I should look at the die table a bit more closely.

Thanks for the insight so far guys! Always looking for more though :smallwink:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-25, 02:14 PM
There's also the fact that a stab has a 2 step reduction from a swing, whereas the swing never drops more than 1 die below the stab.

Personally, I'd set it up as follows:


{table=head]
Attack Type|
Full Attack|
Block|
Parry|
Dodge|Flat-Footed

Swing | 1d10 | 1d8 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d12

Stab | 1d8/+1 | 1d6/+1 | 1d8/+1 | 1d6/+1 | 1d12/+1[/table]

Against any opponent not attempting to merely parry or unable to dodge at all, Stabs deal slightly less average damage...but add +1 to the Crit range, making either choice still viable. Against someone parrying or unable to move, of course, a precise attack is usually the stronger option.

SurvivorX
2009-05-25, 02:55 PM
Hmm! I hadn't been thinking in terms of "stab is X steps away from swing" but that makes a lot more sense than what I was doing.

Also, in my spreadsheet, Parry was proving to be just a touch overpowered at higher levels, so I think this might suffice to balance it out a bit better. Thanks a lot Djinn! :smallbiggrin:

Any other thoughts guys?