Monk/Paladin? Woah..

[ChrisDemilich]

So, I was re-reading the earlier comics, and remembered that Miko was a Monk/Paladin. And I kept wondering how good THAT combination would be. They use very different stats, and basically play completely differently. How could they have synergy? The answer is... %#*&ing Hardcore amazing!

I made this character, trying to figure out how it would play as it advanced. And the results were very nice.

Also, note that I decided to optimize her as an unarmed attacker, instead of going the Miko Route and learning to use a Katana. Especially since the specialization involved in the first few monk levels really focus on Unarmed fighting.

I brought her to level 6 as monk, to get the third bonus feat, and the +20 movement rate. Then I moved to Paladin.

THE CHARACTER

Sakura Amani, Human Female Monk 6/Paladin 14. Lawful Good. Medium sized. Height 5'7, Weight 135 lbs.

Hit Dice: 6d8 + 14d10 + 60. (HP 173)

Abilities: Strength 12, Dexterity 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 16.

Speed: 50 feet

Initiative: 10

AC: 41! 10 + 8 Armor + 2 Shield + 6 Dex + 5 Natural + 5 Deflection + 2 Monk Bonus + 4 Wisdom Bonus. Touch AC: 26. Flat Footed AC: 35.

Base Attack: 18/13/8/3. Grapple: 19(18 BAB, 1 STR)
Attack: Unarmed Strike. 25/20/15/10. 1d10 +1 damage. Crit: 19-20/x2. Treated as magic to overcome DR.

Saving Throws: 24 Fortitude, 24 Reflex, 22 Will. +2 VS enchantment.

Special Attacks: Flurry of blows 24/24/19/14/9. 1d10+1 damage; Stunning fist DC 24 Fort Save, or stun. 10/day; Smite Evil 1d10+17. 3/day; Turn Undead 6/day.

Special abilities: Evasion; Still Mind; Ki Strike; Slow fall 30 ft; Purity of Body; Aura of Good; Detect Evil - at will; Divine grace + 3; Lay on hands 42 points/day; Special Mount; Remove Disease 3/week.

Spells Prepared: 1st - Bless weapon, Protection from Evil, Divine Favor. 2nd - Bulls Strength, Owl's Wisdom. 3rd - Dispel magic, Remove Curse. 4th - Death Ward, Dispel Evil.

Skills: Balance 11, Climb 6, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 18, Escape artist 11, Heal 14, Hide 11, Jump 6, Knowledge(religion) 7, Listen 9, Move Silently 11, Ride 16, Sense Motive 19.

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning fist, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Improved Critical(unarmed strike), Great Fortitude, Deflect Arrows.

Equipment: Bracers of armor +8, Gloves of dexterity +6, Robe of Stars, Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Cloak of resistance, Ring of Protection +5, Ring of Force Shield, Helm of Brilliance.

Let's evaluate this character, shall we?

ABILITIES:
Starting stats rolled (Using 4d6, and remove lowest) were 15, 14, 17, 15, 12, 12. I put 12 str, 15 dex, 15 con, 12 int, 17 wis, 14 cha.

I decided that the greatest thing this monk/Paladin could do was tank hits, so wisdom to add to the Monk's AC bonus was a useful choice. And it would be of great benefit once you go Paladin.

At level 4, she gained 1 point of con, to give her the extra +1 modifier. At level 8, she boosted Dex. At level 12, she raised Wis, then the last two increases were put into Charisma.

Total Stats at 20: 12 str, 16 dex, 16 con, 12 int, 18 wis, 16 cha.

FEATS:
At first level, this human Monk had the following feats: Improved Unarmed Strike(from monk), Stunning Fist(bonus feat), Weapon finesse(Since Dex is the better stat, and Unarmed strikes count as light melee), and Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike).

At level 2, she gets Combat reflexes as a bonus feat.

At level 3, she gained Improved Initiative, for that extra boost of speed.

At level 6, she took Improved Trip as a bonus feat, and lightning reflexes to boost her reflex saves.

After this, she started leveling as a paladin. At level 9, she took Iron Will.

At level 12, she took Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike) doubling her threat range for her unarmed strikes.

At level 15, she took great Fortitude, to round out the save bonuses.

At level 18, she took Deflect arrows.

Items:
I decided to use the house rule my DM uses regarding Paladins. Paladins are nerfed in that they have to donate half their earnings to the church. Therefore, in choosing items, I used a little more then half the base wealth for a level 20 character.

Bracers of armor +8: Obviously makes up for the lack of armor the Monk suffers.

Gloves of Dexterity +6: Since all attack rolls are based on Dexterity, and it boosts AC, these are a no brainer.

Monks's Belt: Duh.

Amulet of Natural Armor: It was a toss between this or amulet of Wisdom, but this seemed more useful.

Ring of Protection +5: Also Duh. +5 deflection bonus to armor.

Ring of Force Shield: +2 Shield bonus anyone?

Boots of speed: because this character is not hardcore enough, we need haste.

Robe of Stars: +1 luck to saves, Astral Plane travel, and +5 Shurikens.

Cloak of Resistance: Because more saves is win.

Helm of Brilliance: Wait what? Damage to undead each round, fire resistance 30, and spells. Only drawback? If you take more then 30 fire damage, you have to succeed a DC 15 will save to avoid the Helm overloading. DC 15 will is no issue for this character.

Skills:

Balance, climb, and jump are there to increase her mobility. Concentration in case she needs to buff in combat. Diplomacy to deal with NPC's. Escape artist just in case. Heal should be obvious. Hide and Move Silently, because this Paladin can use them effectively. Knowledge religion, because it just seemed to fit. Listen is obvious. Ride is also obvious. Sense motive to avoid getting screwed by NPC's.

[JackMage666]

Wait... Your DM nerfed Paladins? But... That's like... I don't get it.

It's a fun build, but like people who will post after me will reveal, it's hardly as amazing as you're hoping. It's quite fun, though.

[Gnorman]

Two words: Ascetic Knight.

[ChrisDemilich]

Wait... Your DM nerfed Paladins? But... That's like... I don't get it.

It's a fun build, but like people who will post after me will reveal, it's hardly as amazing as you're hoping. It's quite fun, though.

Yeah. My DM decided that the whole Piety thing requires them to give half their gold to the church. BUT they have an advantage. The church will find them any magic item they ask for, at cost. And buy magic items at market cost. My friend played a Paladin, and was able to acquire a +5 long sword with excellent bonuses, while the rest of us were struggling to find rings of protection with more then +3. So there are bonuses.

[Fishy]

I'm glad that you and your friends had fun with this character!

[Talic]

Monk/Paladin works well... Especially when you make it a ghost/nymph/wendigo.

Then you get Wis to AC. Cha to AC. Cha to saves.

With Slippers of Battledancing, it's Cha to damage.
With Divine might, it's Cha to damage again.
With Sorceror 1, and Ascetic Mage, it's not Wis to AC, it's Cha to AC. (and true strikes, for when you gotta hit)

So now you get your Cha to AC twice (unnamed and deflection)...
and Cha to damage twice.

There are other things, I'm sure.

[Goatman_Ted]

I'm curious.
Do you play 20th level games often?


edit:
V@Talic
I meant the OP.
I know character optimization isn't the norm, but I'm really curious whether characters like this survive in any games.

[Philistine]

Life is certainly easier when you start with the equivalent of a 43 point buy. Even so, the only thing she's really got going for her are her solid save bonuses.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Tanking hits is pretty redundant if you can't also threaten the enemies and force them to attack you. FWIW, a 20th-level Swashbuckler/Duelist (Fighter/Scout for feats and Uncanny Dodge if you like), done by the books (WBL, point-buy) can pump AC to 70 with Greater Two Weapon Defense, fighting defensively (that's +16 for -4), and spazzing out on defensive items, with attacks at +31/+26/+21/+16 and 1d6+18 plus 2d6 precise strike (or +29/+24/+19/+14 and +24/+19 at 1d6+18 and 1d4+10), plus deal out AoOs every time he's attacked thanks to Robilar's Gambit. Saves won't be as good, admittedly.

Not that Monk/Paladin couldn't be fine, though. You're just wasting your time going past level 4 (or 5 if you take charging smite from PHB2) in Paladin, though. PrC out of it.


Edit: 1d10+1 damage? You're dealing less than 10 points of damage per round to anything even remotely the right CR for you (assuming you only need magic and bludgeoning to bypass its DR). Why would enemies pay attention to you in combat?

[Garian]

Wait, don't monks lose the speed and armor bonus when in armor? I would confirm it if I had a PHB on me.

Ascetic Knight is a must. A feat from complete adventurer page 105.

[Talic]

I'm curious.
Do you play 20th level games often?

Ghost/nymph/wendigo didn't mean ALL of them.

This particular grouping can be done, with ghost, at around level 11-12

(Ghost LA 8, Paladin 2, Monk 1, Sorc 1)

Yes, it's a high end game, but not a level 20 one.

[Molant]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

[Paramour Pink]

You need to be able to do more damage than what you are right now.

I'm in one (my first and only) high powered campaign and you'll have to trust me that tiny dinks won't help the situation. I also have ridiculously high saves. Those saves are really useful, but...and I have to repeat this...you need to be able to do more damage. Or be able to do something other than merely survive. Ask yourself really simply: "In a fight, what would I do to make a significant contribution to help stopping the bad guys?" Otherwise, you're leaving everyone else in your party to do the bulk of the work. :smallyuk:

I'm only just sorta realizing that, for D&D 3.5, the best defence is honestly a good offence.


The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

...

Right.

[Adumbration]

I would propose that you purchase an item called "Belt of Magnificence". It gives you for the salty price of 200 000 gps +6 to all stats, which is more than welcome with your character's MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency). It is found in Miniatures book.

In any case, although Monk 6/Paladin 14 may be considered sub-optimal in these forums, it is probable that you'll have fun with it regardless, unless your party has multiple casters.

[Curmudgeon]

At first level, this human Monk had the following feats: Improved Unarmed Strike(from monk), Stunning Fist(bonus feat), Weapon finesse(Since Dex is the better stat, and Unarmed strikes count as light melee), and Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike). Problem here: you can't take Weapon Finesse as a first level Monk.

[Xuincherguixe]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

You do realize that muscle weighs more than fat right? It'd be weird to be a Knight type (which is what a Paladin is) and not being really big.

[kamikasei]

You do realize that muscle weighs more than fat right? It'd be weird to be a Knight type (which is what a Paladin is) and not being really big.

There's also the fact that that height/weight is bang in the middle of "healthy". For a martial artist, that'd probably amount to quite a lean build.

[mostlyharmful]

Flight and some way to see invisible are also needed desperately. If you go past level 10 EVERYONE needs to be able to fly or you just get ignored or ganked. Some form of teleportation and stealth would also do good things.

And I hate to say it but just to put it into perspective, this guy is roadkill against any vaguely optimized non-caster of 13th or so level and dead versus a caster around 9th level, sorry.

[Atelm]

If you have access to Tome of Battle I'd suggest replacing one of the character's feats with Superiour Unarmed Strike; but only if your DM allows for its effects to stack with the Monk's belt.

All in all a fun build.

[Leon]

Looks nice and if it works for you then that's the main thing - the naysayers be dammed.

[SilverClawShift]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

...wow. That's amazing.

[archon_huskie]

As has been said already. Ascetic Knight is a must. this feat allows you to use your combined monk and paladin levels to determine your unarmed damage and Smite Evil Damage.

It also means you can take a level of monk or paladin when you level up again.

So your new unarmed damage is 2d10+1.
Your new Smite Evil damage is 2d10+24.

Also the unarmed damge for a level 25 Monk is the same as an unarmed level 20 Monk. So you are no longer getting a bonus from the Monk's belt. Replace that with the Belt of Magnificence mentioned above.

[Xallace]

I didn't see anyone mention this, so just in case, I suggest the Serenity feat somewhere in there. All of your Cha-based abilities use Wisdom instead, so you don't have to spread out your Ability Scores quite as much. I'd say it's almost essential for a good Monk/Paladin.

And +1 on the Ascetic Knight idea.

[DeathQuaker]

Tanking hits is pretty redundant if you can't also threaten the enemies and force them to attack you.

The character has a 50' move+Boots of Speed, which is going to make it insanely easy for her to get in close range with the enemy. She will probably often be the first/closest target; an enemy unaware of her abilities will at least focus on her at first (which she will survive easily), giving her party time to get into position and attack.

The OP also stated that this is for a party in a real campaign; she may well be the best or most visible target for the party that she's in.

If the player wanted to improve her mobility, he could always drop the three save boosting feats, which aren't necessary with already high saves and the ability to cast Owl's Wisdom, and throw in Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.

Or possibly to go another route, add more combat maneuvers like Improved Grapple. A character like that could rush in to an unaware enemy and grapple the weakest (likely spellcasting) enemy before they could respond. It won't work for all scenarios or terrains, but definitely a useful tactic to have up one's sleeve.



Edit: 1d10+1 damage? You're dealing less than 10 points of damage per round to anything even remotely the right CR for you (assuming you only need magic and bludgeoning to bypass its DR). Why would enemies pay attention to you in combat?

Full attack, that's 4d10+4 damage, more with Flurry of Blows. Oh, and +1 attack from the Boots of Speed. Plus the character can buff herself with Bull's Strength for a little more damage. Edit: Oh, and if the GM allows the monk to use the Helm of Brilliance to make her attacks flaming, then that's another 1d6 damage per attack.

She won't be the biggest damage dealer per se, but she'll hurt, and she'll be insanely useful to handle mooks, probably one-shotting most of them. If she's in a party where another person's role is damage dealing, then she's golden. They each have their part to play.


Flight and some way to see invisible are also needed desperately.

She or the party can always buy potions of See Invisible and Fly if that comes to be a problem in their particular campaign. Or their party spellcaster may be willing to cast it on them when that comes up. I don't know the nature of their campaign so I wouldn't necessarily assume that it would be universally useful... sure, generally speaking it will come in handy, but if they haven't encountered many invisible creatures, for example (maybe they're fighting lots of undead? golems?), it won't occur to them to equip themselves in that manner.


If you go past level 10 EVERYONE needs to be able to fly or you just get ignored or ganked.

Unless you're playing in a very typical, traditional dungeon crawl where everything is underground and has 10-20' high ceilings.

Heck, I'm running a 16th level campaign and none of the party has magic items that let them fly (they do have some spells they can cast). They still managed to take down a flying dragon, with very clever and well timed use of spells, ranged attacks, Shadow Jumps, and the grounded paladin taunting the crap out of the dragon and threatening his hoard.

This char does have some ranged options (the shuriken and the spells from the helm), which are important if you do have someone who is elusive.


Some form of teleportation and stealth would also do good things.

She does have the cloak that allows her to Astral Shift, which may come in handy. She has some natural stealth ability... maybe she could keep on hand some Boots of Elvenkind if it falls to her to be the sneakiest one in her party, swapping her extra speed for stealth when situations call for it.

If the paladin/monk were to buy magic items for flying, I'd be inclined to get something that would allow her mount to fly. That might not be the "optimized" way to go, but fun.



And I hate to say it but just to put it into perspective, this guy is roadkill against any vaguely optimized non-caster of 13th or so level and dead versus a caster around 9th level, sorry.

I doubt it, with the high saves and a touch AC of 26. Especially if she further buffs herself with Owls Wisdom, which will kick up AC and Will Saves even further. A caster may get in some lucky hits, but that monk has a decent survival rate against spell attacks.

And of course, it's unlikely if this is a good, proper D&D campaign, that there will be much one-on-one fighting, so with party support, and the monk supporting the party in turn, that it actually won't be much of a problem. Especially if there's a cleric or arcanist in the party that buffs the monk further (e.g., gives her something like Fly) if necessary.

[BobVosh]

Full attack, that's 4d10+4 damage, more with Flurry of Blows. Oh, and +1 attack from the Boots of Speed. Plus the character can buff herself with Bull's Strength for a little more damage. Edit: Oh, and if the GM allows the monk to use the Helm of Brilliance to make her attacks flaming, then that's another 1d6 damage per attack.

4D10+4 damage: if all hit, and do max damage, that is 56. (assuming the dr is /magic) Compare that to the probable 3 hits at 50 a piece(at average damage).

Just bump the damage somehow and it will be a reasonable character.

Few notes about AC:
1. You don't get wisdom/monk bonus if you are in armor.
2. 2 monk + 5 deflection + 6 dex + 4 wis =27 touch ac
3. 41 AC isn't all that great at level 20. 41-20=21 ac. And that is a monster with full BAB, which probably has a +10 str bonus/magic/etc. Hits on a 11 therefore.

Bracers of armor, gotcha.

[Tengu_temp]

If you have access to Tome of Battle I'd suggest replacing one of the character's feats with Superiour Unarmed Strike; but only if your DM allows for its effects to stack with the Monk's belt.

All in all a fun build.

Well, if you have access to ToB, you could as well replace monk with swordsage and/or paladin with crusader - same fluff, more fun to play, is not overshadowed by a straight fighter.

[Epinephrine]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

Umm, look at actual people who are in shape and have muscle mass? Hitomi Akano is a mixed martial artist and weighs 135lbs at 5'4". And she's not "plump".

[Dixieboy]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

Obvious troll is fairly obvious?

[Tengu_temp]

That doesn't look like trolling to me, just misinformation. And, for some reason, even calling obvious trolls by that name is against the rules here.


Looks nice and if it works for you then that's the main thing - the naysayers be dammed.

I don't think if any of those naysayers are saying "no, bad character, stop having fun and play a Batman wizard!" - the OP and his group are clearly having fun, and that's what matters most. But he also calls this build "hardcore amazing", and this is not a "I made a fun to play character" thread, but a "I made a powerful character" one, and here is where they try to show him he's mistaken.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

Disgusting.

That would be a BMI 21.5. BMI is useless, but even by its insane standards, that's well on the low side of healthy BMI (assuming low muscle ratio).

If she has any kind of muscle mass, she'd look like a reed with steel muscles.


The character has a 50' move+Boots of Speed, which is going to make it insanely easy for her to get in close range with the enemy. She will probably often be the first/closest target; an enemy unaware of her abilities will at least focus on her at first (which she will survive easily), giving her party time to get into position and attack.

What possible use is movement speed? The character won't hit, and if she does, she won't deal noticeable damage. Enemies with half a brain will walk past to get at the squishies that might actually hurt them.



Full attack, that's 4d10+4 damage, more with Flurry of Blows. Oh, and +1 attack from the Boots of Speed. Plus the character can buff herself with Bull's Strength for a little more damage. Edit: Oh, and if the GM allows the monk to use the Helm of Brilliance to make her attacks flaming, then that's another 1d6 damage per attack.

No, it's less than 10 points. On a flurry of blows, two of those attacks have maybe a 50% chance of connecting, the rest have less. The character deals no appreciable damage at 20th level. She won't hurt.


The easy Duelist build I mentioned has better AC (by 75%), higher attack bonuses (by 7), has several times the damage (and more attacks, with higher bonuses, if using the defending dagger to attack) and is created on a lower point buy. I can post details if people really want, I've got them somewhere.

The only thing remotely impressive are the saves, and they aren't even really optimized. The AC is a joke. Any fighter can do that; 43 AC is trivial (+5 mithral full plate, Dex 16, +5 large shield, +5 ring of deflection, and +5 amulet of natural armor; that's without going outside of core or even trying hard).

[Dixieboy]

That doesn't look like trolling to me, just misinformation. And, for some reason, even calling obvious trolls by that name is against the rules here.

It is?

Quite embarrassing as i actually reread the rules two days ago. :smallfrown:

[SparkMandriller]

Better hope you don't fight anything with decent damage reduction.

[Thrawn183]

As far as I'm concerned all talk about whether a character is stronger than another character is a little pointless.

Instead, let's look at a CR 20 monster... say a Balor. How would your character contribute? How about a Pit Fiend?

In fact I used the monster filter on the SRD to look for monsters of CR 18 or higher of any type and outside of dragons (got a bunch of those):
Nightshade, Nightcrawler (CR 18)
Balor (CR 20)
Pit Fiend (CR 20)
Angel, Solar (CR 23)
Tarrasque (CR 20)
Titan (CR 21)

I know different groups have different playstyles and such, but the one thing that everybody can find in common (usually) is the SRD. You need to be effective in combat against basically all of these. You need to be able to get to them as some have flight. You need an attack bonus high enough to hit them, your best attacks would hit the pit fiend on 15 or better and after that you'd need a 20. Some silversheen can help you overcome DR/silver or DR silver and magic, but what about the DR/cold iron and good of the balor?

You are clearly a melee character, but what happens when you take a full round attack from a titan? A full attack from a Titan does an average of 86 damage to you. You can't take more than 2 full round attacks. Actually, if you get unlucky you could just straight up die from from 2 full round attacks. In return? It saves against your stunning fist on anything other than a 1. Even if you give it a small penalty, its fort save is +26, while the DC is only 24. Your full round attacks overcome its DR but for an average of roughly 9 damage a round. Your attack bonus is actually so low that the power attack calculator shows that you are better off power attacking for 18 rather than not power attacking at all.

Now, I understand this could all change with party dynamics. Buff spells from allies are certainly important. But all I see is a character that's pretty difficult to kill in less than 12 seconds.

[Philistine]

First off, where did the OP ever state that he's actually playing this character in a game? I didn't see that, even when I went back and looked for it. I saw "I made a level 20 character, trying to figure out how it would play as it advanced" - indicating, to my mind, that this is a pure optimization exercise. As such, it's fair game to be dissected by the same standards as any other optimization exercise.

So here's the problem: even leaving aside the notion that beatsticks are unoptimized by definition, this character isn't a particularly good beatstick. Her AB is too low - against CR 20 monsters, she will enjoy <50% hits with her first attacks; her iteratives will then drop to <25%, 5%, and 5%. Her damage per hit is much too low - it's low for a level one character, let alone level 20, and she can do exactly jack squat about it. Her AC (yes, including her Touch AC) is too low - those same CR 20 monsters just referenced will hit her AC slightly more than 50% of the time (and a level 20 caster with a moderate investment in Dex will hit her Touch AC 50% of the time as well). Her HP total is much too low - significantly less than CR 20 opponents who easily out-damage her. Nor does she offer a great deal of out-of-combat utility. Her strong saves are literally the only thing she has going for her.

So yes, she can run out in front of the group and draw fire for a round. Which she'll probably survive, despite the inadequate AC and HP - but after which her opponents will realize she doesn't actually pose a threat. And while consumables and caster buffs can fix the lack of flight and seeing through invisibility, they can't fix the fact that she doesn't do her primary job well, and doesn't really have a secondary job at all.

[Berserk Monk]

Yeah, that's because Miko was playing a paladin with monk abilities, not a monk with paladin abilities. She wore heavey armor losing many of the benefits granted to unarmored monks. She wielded two swords (a waste of a feat for two weapon fighting) when she could have gone bare fists and used flurry of blows. Just take like 5 levels of paladin, then go monk. Speaking of which, I've always kind of wanted to make one of these.

[Leon]

I don't think if any of those naysayers are saying "no, bad character, stop having fun and play a Batman wizard!" - the OP and his group are clearly having fun, and that's what matters most. But he also calls this build "hardcore amazing", and this is not a "I made a fun to play character" thread, but a "I made a powerful character" one, and here is where they try to show him he's mistaken.

It can be hardcore amazing, it may well be the strongest and nastiest PC in that game and setting but melt like butter in another.
Already its been suggested to use ToB classes in place of a monk

The area's that the PC cant cover or lacks resources to do are something that the rest of the party can cover - a typical PC doesn't Exist in a vacuum

[Goatman_Ted]

It can be hardcore amazing, it may well be the strongest and nastiest PC in that game and setting but melt like butter in another.


I understand and I agree completely, but is there a game where this character would be the 'strongest and nastiest'?

It would take 22 rounds to kill a Constitution 10, AC 1 Barbarian at level 20.
(If the Barbarian's just standing there and taking it)

I'm not sure how this build could survive against even CR 15 monsters like Maruts or Adult Red Dragons. You won't hit them (you probably won't even be able to reach them) and your damage & stuns will be ineffective.

Edit.
Some suggestions:

Assuming a Core-ony environment, you might look at something along the lines of Monk 2/Paladin 18 or Monk 2/Fighter 2/Paladin 16. Past the first 3 feats, the AC and Flurry, the Monk doesn't offer anything especially compelling.
You need ability enhancements for everything (except maybe Intelligence) if you want even a prayer of success against Pit Fiends, Balors et al.
Get Power Attack. You need damage.
At high levels, for this sort of character (non-casting/manifesting/initiating/binding) to be even marginally effective against level-appropriate monsters, you'll want to be PAOed into something big, scary and preferrably flying. The Strength boost there will help with your damage output and the Natural Armor will help with your AC. You'll need both of those.
If you want enemies to attack you instead of the rest of the party, you're going to have to make them attack you instead of the rest of the party. This might mean turning yourself into a threatening yet attractive target (like a Barbarian or Warblade, tanking AC to deal scary amounts of damage) or it might mean using brute force to trap enemies near you (like a lockdown Fighter, Crusader or Knight, using AoOs and combat maneuvers to restrict enemy movement).

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, that's because Miko was playing a paladin with monk abilities, not a monk with paladin abilities. She wore heavey armor losing many of the benefits granted to unarmored monks.
Nah, only light armor, for her Evasion to function. Probably a mithril breastplate. She clearly had a high Dex build. (Probably low Wis, if the decision making we saw from her was any indication.)

[Thrawn183]

Ok, so I tried to breakdown some of the weaknesses of the OP monk. As an example, I will post an essentially vanilla core fighter 20 using the same stats.

“Roy” Human LG Fighter 20
HD 20d10+120 (HP 234)
Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12 (Same stats as monk/paladin in different order)
Str 32, Dex 22, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
Speed: 20 ft. (runs 80 instead of 60)
Initiative: +10
AC: 41 (10 +13 armor +7 shield +1 Dex +5 natural +5 deflection), 16 touch, 40 flat-footed
BAB/Grapple +20/+31
Attack: +5 Holy Adamantine Greatsword +38 melee (2d6+25/17-20x2)
Full Attack: +5 Holy Adamantine Greatsword +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 melee (2d6+25/17-20x2)
Saving Throws: Fortitude +25, Reflex +19, Will +15
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Foucs, (G) Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, (G) Weapon Specialization, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Cleave, Quick Draw, Iron Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Endurance, Diehard, Skill Focus (Underwater Basketweaving), Run
Skills: Craft Underwater Basketweaving +27
Equipment: 760,000 (Used: 752,300)
+5 Holy Adamantine Greatsword (103,400)
+5 Holy Cold Iron Greatsword (102,400-112,400 depending on how you read Cold Iron)
50 Vials of Silversheen (12.5k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
+5 Adamantine Fullplate (40k)
+5 Adamantine Animated Shield (51k)
Ring of Protection +5 (50k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
+6 Belt Str (36k)
+6 Periapt Health/natural armor +5(104k)
+6 Gloves Dex (36k)
+5 Cloak of Resistance (25k)
+4 Manual of Gainful Exercise (110k)
+1 Manual of Quickness of Action (27.5k)
+1 Manual of Bodily Health (27.5)


Alright, on to the analysis. This fighter's weaknesses are low speed, no flight (I just forgot about it) and a poor will save.

Against a Titan: He still get's hit for 86 damage a round, but it takes 3 rounds to take him out instead of 2. In exchange, he does 75 damage to it a round without power attacking and 90 a round if he PA's the optimal 4. Now, if this were a fighter that could get a weapon that overcame that DR he'd instead be doing 142 damage a round without PA. I just built this guy assuming he was wandering the wilderness and didn't have a caster to help out (in which case he wouldn't have +5 weapons, he'd have enchantments instead).

Now, since you were working with a limited budget, I don't want to be comparing gear too much. I mean, I love the Ring of Freedom of Movement, but I understand you're pressed for GP. I just want to show you what a character really needs to be able to do. Long story short, the monk/paladin's attack with the highest attack bonus is equivalent to this guy's last iterative. That should concern you.

I think you can have fun with your character, I just hope you don't run up against any CR 20's while playing it.

[Chronos]

The area's that the PC cant cover or lacks resources to do are something that the rest of the party can cover - a typical PC doesn't Exist in a vacuumThere are, what, 4-6 characters in a typical party? That means that any viable character should be able to carry about 1/6 of the burden. A typical fighter-type, who can take a lot of punishment, deal a lot of damage, and contribute in a handful of out-of-combat situations like breaking down doors and lifting heavy objects? Yeah, he's maybe carrying 1/6 of the party's load. But this character can only do one of these things: She can soak up attacks great, but she can't even do the rest of the things a standard fighter can do. If the rest of the party is similarly capable, then there are going to be some huge holes in the entire party's abilities.

Plus, there's only so much you can spread some things out in a party. Two fighter-types, one of whom is a glass cannon and the other of which is untouchable, is considerably less effective than a single character with both offense and defense. An enemy could take out the glass cannon quickly, at which point they can stop worrying about the dangerous attacks, and just ignore the untouchable character for the rest of the fight.

[Epinephrine]

Ok, so I tried to breakdown some of the weaknesses of the OP monk. As an example, I will post an essentially vanilla core fighter 20 using the same stats.

Nice example; I'd love to try to optimise the monk/paladin a bit, but you've made a pretty solid example. I do feel I should point out that the paladin would have spellcasting and smiting.

It's not huge, but Holy Sword cast on his hands (which he could manage, as it's a 4th level paladin spell) does add +5 to hit and +2d6 damage per swing, and he can smite for another +14 (+20 if he takes the Ascetic Knight feat).

If he were clever and took the ascetic knight feat, he'd deal unarmed damage as a 20th level monk as a base, instead, and with the flurry of blows and Holy Sword it would add up to a decent amount of damage. As well, if he used Wisdom to hit instead of Dexterity (Intuitive Attack, from BoED instead of Weapon Finesse) he could have a DC for the stunning fist up around the 35-36 mark, making actually a decent use of a power. He can put the 17 in Wisdom, add all his 4th level abilities to it to get a base of 22, take a+6 wisdom item and +2 or so from a tome, to hit 30 Wisdom.

Feats: Ascetic Knight (now he has level 20 for smiting and unarmed damage); Improved Stunning Fist (boost DC by 2); Intuitive Attack (Wisdom to attack)

Buy Ki straps (+2 DC on stunning fist) and two items from Garyn's monastic array (+1 DC on stunning fist) and you have a DC 35 stunning fist, much better than the DC 24 he was using.

With his BAB of 18, +1 for weapon focus, +10 for wisdom, and +5 from Holy Sword he's up to a much better +34 to hit, dealing 2d10+5+Str on his punches, +2d6 damage versus evil opponents, and you can stun them as well. Plus a smite attack for another +20 damage on one of them, a few times a day. Not great, but it's better, right?

[Human Paragon 3]

With his BAB of 18, +1 for weapon focus, +10 for wisdom, and +5 from Holy Sword he's up to a much better +34 to hit, dealing 2d10+5+Str on his punches, +2d6 damage versus evil opponents, and you can stun them as well. Plus a smite attack for another +20 damage on one of them, a few times a day. Not great, but it's better, right?

So that would be 54 damage and a stun, followed by 54 damage and a stun, ad nauseum as long as the baddy keeps getting stunned. Not bad, really.

If you swap out Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike (phb II) that 54 damage becomes 71 damage, repeatable, with a likely stun attached. Decisive strike also boosts the save DC of stunning fist to 37--even the Titan fails that check half the time. The Balor needs a 15 to pass. The Pit Fiend needs an 18 to pass. The Solar needs a 19 to pass. Now you're starting to look good!

EDIT: I love the image of this lady just wailing on the pit fiend, who gets stunned every round and annihilated by smites (and the other 5 members of the party). Now that's the power of good.

EDIT EDIT: Sun School feat would be good for this build, too. Stun your foe twice in a row (easy for you) and they are confused for 1d4 rounds. So even if they pass their saving throw for stun eventually they remain borked.

[Goatman_Ted]

If going for a core Monk/Paladin with that array, howabout this:
Monk 2/Fighter 2/Paladin 16

Str 15 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 17 Cha 12

All level boosts go into Wisdom.

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Improved Bull Rush
Cleave
Magical Aptitude
Skill Focus (UMD)

PAO into a Giant or something for an easy 30+ Strength and Huge Size.

Equipment:
2 Pearls of Power III for the Wizard gets Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment
Str/Dex/Wis/Con/Cha enhancements +4 to +6
+1 Adamantine Gauntlets of every bonus you want.
Use Staves and Wands for real spellcasting. Don't push it as far as Giacomo, but use them. Many Mobility options (Teleport) rely on them.

[Molant]

It is?

Quite embarrassing as i actually reread the rules two days ago. :smallfrown:

Don't worry about it, friend :). I could've sworn I'd had a ";p" after my comment, but it seems not. I hadn't originally intended my remark to be a serious comment, but that seems to be how it was received.

As for my source of thought, I'm a martial artist and dancer and the numbers just seemed to be odd on an unarmed fighter. In any case, we are limited in our depiction of the character by the standard information provided.

For example, assuming a 12% body fat (low for women), at 135 pounds she carries 16.2 pounds of fat, leaving 118.8 pounds lean mass (organs, bones and muscle). For a women who stands 5'7'' that's...not exactly plump, but rather large. She'd need to have wider than usual shoulders and hips - not exactly impossible to imagine (I've seen that build on successful martial artists), but far from ideal.

Ordinarily, women do not carry a large amount of muscle mass, regardless of strength, unless they alter their body's chemistry by adding hormones. I imagine that both a monk and a paladin would be against the use of steroids. Most active women I know standing about 5'7'' weigh under 115 and none above 125. These are women who regularly train with both weighted and bodyweight exercises and are strong enough to flip a fully grown man (170+ lbs) over their shoulders (which is really cool to see - youtube it NOW if you've never seen a small women throw around a large man).

This character has a Strength of 12 and a Dexterity of 22, which seems appropriate for most types of dancers. I would suggest that a more accurate weight for a woman of this size would be 105-115, assuming an athletic, meso-ecto body. Weird or funny shaped bodies I cannot comment on, because they're weird :)

Hope that helps explain things ;)

[Tsotha-lanti]

BMI 21.5 can not conceivably be "plump." It's incomprehensible how warped people's ideas of "normal" bodies - especially women's bodies - are.

[Molant]

BMI is a very poor metric for measuring what a person actually looks like. It quickly becomes inaccurate as you move away from 25 in both directions and also as you move away from 6' in both directions. The very tall and short, for example, often are considered obese or in advanced starvation.

Among trained athletes, BMI is almost never used. Body fat percentage is much more useful and actually helps you to imagine what the person looks like.

[Dilb]

BMI 21.5 can not conceivably be "plump." It's incomprehensible how warped people's ideas of "normal" bodies - especially women's bodies - are.

Singapore disagrees (http://www.halls.md/bmi/singapore.htm). Seriously, BMI sucks as anything other than a general indicator that can quickly be applied to a huge number of people.

[Epinephrine]

Seriously, BMI sucks as anything other than a general indicator that can quickly be applied to a huge number of people.

Mostly agree with this - I work in public health, and have done analyses based on BMI.

However, the largest ever meta-analysis on BMI was just conducted, with over 900,000 adults involved (Lancet 2009; 373: 1083–96), and it has some surprisingly good findings for BMI as applied to a population, and hence as a health indicator.

Good paper, really.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Oh look!


BMI is useless, but even by its insane standards

This does not change the fact that claiming 5'7" and 135 lbs. is "plump" is just plain sickening. Google Image Search that crap and you get, wow, a bunch of female athletes, models, movie stars, and porn stars. All skinny. Wow!

[Gorbash]

Ontopic, please. Who the hell cares about BMI of this character?

I wonder how anyone didn't suggest buying partially charged wands of Divine Power yet... :smallsigh:


Looks nice and if it works for you then that's the main thing - the naysayers be dammed.

Point is, it's an idea, which won't work, and you have enough evidence to that in this thread.

Seriously, just go Crusader/Swordsage as people suggested, it's really beyond me how the suggested build can be described as hardcore amazin. At first, I thought it was a joke, much like that Samurai topic. :smallbiggrin:

[DeathQuaker]

This does not change the fact that claiming 5'7" and 135 lbs. is "plump" is just plain sickening. Google Image Search that crap and you get, wow, a bunch of female athletes, models, movie stars, and porn stars. All skinny. Wow!

Here's one of them (SFW, unlike some of the Google Image Search results):

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/30/magazine/803BODIES_6.html

I KNOW. Look at her! Fat pig. (<------------EXTREME sarcasm, there)

She in fact looks like... a fit, lithe martial artist (actually a cyclist in this case, hence the very muscular thighs). Molant's math is clearly off (not just based on this one picture, but by looking at several real-life examples of women of that size).

More on topic: It would be interesting to see a Pathfinder-core build of this, either close to the OP's idea or to reverse it and do something like Paladin 4/Monk 16. I won't claim "hardcore" but it would be a pretty strong build (monk options are a little better) and a good party member. The expanded core feats would help too.

[Random NPC]

If he were clever and took the ascetic knight feat, he'd deal unarmed damage as a 20th level monk as a base, instead, and with the flurry of blows and Holy Sword it would add up to a decent amount of damage. As well, if he used Wisdom to hit instead of Dexterity (Intuitive Attack, from BoED instead of Weapon Finesse) he could have a DC for the stunning fist up around the 35-36 mark, making actually a decent use of a power. He can put the 17 in Wisdom, add all his 4th level abilities to it to get a base of 22, take a+6 wisdom item and +2 or so from a tome, to hit 30 Wisdom.

Feats: Ascetic Knight (now he has level 20 for smiting and unarmed damage); Improved Stunning Fist (boost DC by 2); Intuitive Attack (Wisdom to attack)



This!

Intuitive Attack is better for a Monk than Weapon Finesse and it's not an overpowering feat. Ascetic Knight just makes the Monk/Paladin even less bad.

If you can I would swap the mount for the Charging Smite ability from Player's Handbook 2. Basically you do twice Smite Evil damage (that is your Paladin level x 2) if you do it in a Charge. Quite useful since I don't think that Paladin will be using her mount often.

[Chronos]

She in fact looks like... a fit, lithe martial artist (actually a cyclist in this case, hence the very muscular thighs). I thought "cyclist" when I saw those thighs, even before I noticed the helmet or the caption: It's a very distinctive look, as athletes go. Which doesn't change the fact, of course, that I did not think "fat".

And Gaurd Juris, I think that's the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest the Sun School feat for any purpose other than the teleport-attack.

[Thrawn183]

Nice example; I'd love to try to optimise the monk/paladin a bit, but you've made a pretty solid example. I do feel I should point out that the paladin would have spellcasting and smiting.

Yeah, my bad on forgetting the smite evil parts and stuff. I'm not trying to blast this concept, I'm just trying to throw out what a pretty generic benchmark would be.

I definitely think the most important part right now is to increase the attack bonus, damage and stunning fist DC. The AC is good enough to be honest, part of high level play is putting penalties on the enemy saving throws and those same penalties usually also apply to attack roles; so while 41 isn't amazing, it certianly isn't anything to be ashamed of either.

My problem just keeps coming back to offense. The saves are great, but they don't really need to be quite that high. Use those save boosting feats for something to increase attack bonus and damage (or ability focus for the stunning fist DC). Right now we have float like a butterfly, we just need to cram in some bee stingin'.

[Talic]

Holy Warrior as well, exhange that lackluster spellcasting for Bonus feats. Extra Smiting? Extra Turning? Mmhmm.

Divine Might lets you burn turning attempts for bonus Cha damage for a round, as well.

[The Glyphstone]

If you can get Dragon Magazine considered, grab the feat Serenity - it makes all Cha-dependent features of a Paladin based off Wisdom instead, thus eliminating the need for Cha entirely.

[tyckspoon]

This!

Intuitive Attack is better for a Monk than Weapon Finesse and it's not an overpowering feat. Ascetic Knight just makes the Monk/Paladin even less bad.


It's also inexplicably [Exalted], which is a righteous pain in the ass to deal with if your DM is strict about such things. There's no defensible reason for it to require being Exalted Good other than it happening to be in the Feats section of the Book of Exalted Deeds, but there you go.

[Chronos]

Yeah, but if you're a paladin anyway, being exalted isn't really much of an additional burden.

And one advantage to it being an exalted feat is that it gives characters with Vow of Poverty two more levels before they run out of worthwhile exalted feats (which always happens eventually-- Sooner or later, you end up spending a feat on the ability to glow in the dark).

[Human Paragon 3]

This character actually seems like she could be exalted though, so for once it's not that big a deal.

Ninja'd!

I would definitely ditch the save boosters for stunning fist DC boosters as mentioned above. We'll be dumping CHA so serenity is a good idea, too. As for stinging like a bee, I think 71 damage and what's probably an auto-stun is a pretty nice sting, myself.

And 1d4 rounds of confusion seems worth the feat to me, would you agree Chronos?

[penbed400]

Just chiming in but wouldn't Melee Training: Wisdom from the PHB II be better for the character than Intuitave Attack. I know that Intuitive Attack gives the wisdom bonus to her AB but Melee Training: Wisdom not only gives it to AB but to damage too. See then thats some more points to put into damage as well.

[Human Paragon 3]

Just chiming in but wouldn't Melee Training: Wisdom from the PHB II be better for the character than Intuitave Attack. I know that Intuitive Attack gives the wisdom bonus to her AB but Melee Training: Wisdom not only gives it to AB but to damage too. See then thats some more points to put into damage as well.

That's a 4th edition feat, and the OP is building a 3.5 e character.

[ChrisDemilich]

Okay, so yes, like any character, there are good and bad points. I was not trying to twink out here. I was trying to make a build that worked how it should. To be precise, one that worked well with the party I am currently running with. We have a Wizard, a Sorceror, a Druid, and a Barbarian/fighter. In short, we have a lot of magical firepower, and need more protection for the rear line people.

This was my function. She can avoid hits, and move fast enough to intercept 50 move/round monsters before they can reach the casters. She can also avoid attacks that require saving throws with relative ease. And a quick lay on hands can boost herself back up if she does take a hit or two.

And since our entire party is good aligned, and is on a quest to wipe out demonic forces, the smite evil is very useful, and makes up for the lack of damage.

Also, did I mention that we have 3 casters? After enlarge person and Iron Body, her ability to tank is unparalleled. And she can do nice damage too.

A fighter is great, but one dominate person, and guess what? You have one less ally, and one more enemy. Good saves all around are a nice asset.

[Optimator]

Holy Warrior as well, exhange that lackluster spellcasting for Bonus feats. Extra Smiting? Extra Turning? Mmhmm.

Divine Might lets you burn turning attempts for bonus Cha damage for a round, as well.

Instead of giving up the spell casting, get Battle Blessing from Complete Champion. There are a ton of new spells in the Spell Compendium that would help the monk out a ton. Charging Smite combined with Rhino's Rush would make for one hell of a jump kick. Also, things like Fell The Greatest Foe, Find The Gap, Sacred Heaven, Favor of the Martyr, Draconic Might, Holy Sword, etc.

Anyway, you have a druid, wizard, and sorcerer in your party? Yeesh... *tugs collar*

[Lycanthromancer]

If that's the case, you can make a psychic warrior or a ToB character that can be a real threat on the field of battle, even with those yokels hanging around.

Be as mobile, flexible, and offensive as you are defensive, and you'll do well.

[ChrisDemilich]

Anyway, you have a druid, wizard, and sorcerer in your party? Yeesh... *tugs collar*

We all prefer casters. Our epic level campaign is nothing but casters. I have a Demilich, 18 Sorcerer/5 archmage. My friend has a level 16 Wizard/3 Cleric/12 mystic Theurge. The others use a Level 14 wizard/1 fighter/8 eldritch knight/5 archmage/4 blackguard, and I forget the exact layout of the others, but one is mainly druid, the other is a huge mix of rogue, sorcerer, arcane trickster, assassin, and arcane archer.

[SparkMandriller]

Okay, so yes, like any character, there are good and bad points. I was not trying to twink out here. I was trying to make a build that worked how it should.

So what did you do against enemies with damage reduction, again?

[ChrisDemilich]

So what did you do against enemies with damage reduction, again?

Besides the fact that the monk's fists are treated as magical weapons?

Or that Bless weapons overcomes damage reduction of evil creatures?

Or after one enlarge person, the damage becomes 2d8+2.

Or smite evil dealing an additional 14 damage each hit.

Or the fact that one casting of magic weapon from the wizard gives her +5 on her unarmed strikes.

Or after one Iron Body that all goes up even further from another +6 Strength.

Or maybe the fact that her role in the party is not damage since there are three dedicated blasters who need protection? Yeah, I'll go with that! :)

[monty]

Besides the fact that the monk's fists are treated as magical weapons?

And so is everyone else's weapon. Nobody cares about DR/magic at high levels.


Or that Bless weapons overcomes damage reduction of evil creatures?

But not chaotic or lawful (or good, if that ever comes up), which are almost as common. Or adamantine or cold iron, and probably some other things I can't remember offhand.


Or after one enlarge person, the damage becomes 2d8+2.

11 damage on average. Unimpressive.


Or smite evil dealing an additional 14 damage each hit.

Still well below a moderately optimized fighter or barbarian, and only a handful of times a day.


Or the fact that one casting of magic weapon from the wizard gives her +5 on her unarmed strikes.

So now you're up to 16 damage on average, which is still unimpressive, and you still can't do anything about most kinds of DR.


Or after one Iron Body that all goes up even further from another +6 Strength.

See above. Now you're doing 19 damage per hit, after three buffs. Since pretty much anything with damage reduction at high levels will have 10 or 15, you're probably seeing 4-9 average damage against a lot of enemies.


Or maybe the fact that her role in the party is not damage since there are three dedicated blasters who need protection? Yeah, I'll go with that! :)

How will you protect them? You're not a threat, and have no way of forcing enemies to stop.

[SparkMandriller]

Or maybe the fact that her role in the party is not damage since there are three dedicated blasters who need protection? Yeah, I'll go with that! :)

Oh, sorry, I assumed you were doing that protecting by taking out threats. How were you protecting your bros without doing damage?

[ChrisDemilich]

Let us take a look at a few monsters shall we?

Balor. DR 15/Cold Iron and good. Okay, got that covered.

Great Wyrm Blue Dragon.. DR 20/Magic. No problem there.

Nightcrawler. DR 15/Silver and Magic. Pfft.

Etc etc. In fact, the only thing in the PHB that would give her a challenge would be a Titan, with a DR 15/Lawful.

Even a Mythril Golem from the Epic Level guide has a DR of 50/+5.

Also.. You seem to overlook the fact that magic weapon turns her fists into +5 weapons. Which basically negates all but Epic DR, and the Titan. Frankly, a weakness to One monster in the Monster manual is no weakness at all in my opinion.

SparkMandriller: I rush ahead with my 50 foot speed, and since my Initiative is so high, I tend to move first. If we had a chance to buff first, I'll usually have magic weapon, Iron Body, and Enlarge Person on myself. I rush in, and hit anything I think I could hurt. If not, I'll grapple. With the bonuses from the various buffs, the grapple goes up nicely. And with my AC, chances are the Attack of opportunity will be useless against me.

[kjones]

The only problem I have is how fat she is. 5'7'' and 135 pounds? And she's Asian-influenced? That's rather plump.

I realize you've already been taken to task for this, but... have you ever even seen a woman?

[Fishy]

Let's look at Monk 6 for a minute. You say you've taken it for the AC bonus, the bonus feat, the speed boost, and the better unarmed strike damage die.

The level 6 Monk bonus feats are Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. Disarming is only useful against certain specific enemies, and since unarmed strikes are light weapons, you would always be disarming at a penalty anyway. Improved Trip is a very good feat, but because you've buffed your Dexterity score and gone with Weapon Finesse, you only have 12 Strength. Tripping is an opposed Strength check: How often is Ms. Amani successfully knocking things over?

Fighting unarmed and unarmored has essentially cost you your bonus feats.

A level 2 Monk has a 1d6 unarmed strike, whereas a level 6 Monk has 1d8. That's an average increase of exactly one damage. A level 1 monk with 14 Str and a quarterstaff deals as much damage per hit as a level 6 monk with 14 Str and her bare fists. (Who admittedly flurries better.) Later in life, a Monk with a two-handed weapon can take Power Attack, for more damage, and enchant his weapon with special abilities that the Magic Weapon spell can't replicate.

Fighting unarmed and unarmored prevents you from using two-handed weapons, which costs you damage.

Magic items increase geometrically in price: each +1 costs more than the one before it. The name of the game, then, is finding multiple sources of bonuses that stack. A chunk of Ms. Amani's AC comes from her Bracers of Armor +8, which costs 64,000 gp. For the same price, a paladin could be wearing +6 fullplate and carrying a +6 heavy shield for comparable defenses with money left over.

Fighting unarmed and unarmored costs you money.

The saves and the high movement speed are really nice, but Monks pay an awfully high cost for them.

[ChrisDemilich]

Let's look at Monk 6 for a minute. You say you've taken it for the AC bonus, the bonus feat, the speed boost, and the better unarmed strike damage die.

The level 6 Monk bonus feats are Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. Disarming is only useful against certain specific enemies, and since unarmed strikes are light weapons, you would always be disarming at a penalty anyway. Improved Trip is a very good feat, but because you've buffed your Dexterity score and gone with Weapon Finesse, you only have 12 Strength. Tripping is an opposed Strength check: How often is Ms. Amani successfully knocking things over?

Fighting unarmed and unarmored has essentially cost you your bonus feats.

A level 2 Monk has a 1d6 unarmed strike, whereas a level 6 Monk has 1d8. That's an average increase of exactly one damage. A level 1 monk with 14 Str and a quarterstaff deals as much damage per hit as a level 6 monk with 14 Str and her bare fists. (Who admittedly flurries better.) Later in life, a Monk with a two-handed weapon can take Power Attack, for more damage, and enchant his weapon with special abilities that the Magic Weapon spell can't replicate.

Fighting unarmed and unarmored prevents you from using two-handed weapons, which costs you damage.

Magic items increase geometrically in price: each +1 costs more than the one before it. The name of the game, then, is finding multiple sources of bonuses that stack. A chunk of Ms. Amani's AC comes from her Bracers of Armor +8, which costs 64,000 gp. For the same price, a paladin could be wearing +6 fullplate and carrying a +6 heavy shield for comparable defenses with money left over.

Fighting unarmed and unarmored costs you money.

The saves and the high movement speed are really nice, but Monks pay an awfully high cost for them.

She avoids a Balor's Implosion with a roll of 3. She avoids it's Dominate Monster with a roll of 5. She avoids the breath weapon of a Wyrm Red dragon with a 9. And it's frightful presence with a 7.

After a Bulls Strength, Iron Body, and Enlarge person, she trips just about anything.

And Monk's have other bonuses. Speed is nice. Evasion is good, and gets better as magic and breath weapon damage increases.

Also, I know that there are plenty of better options. But this was not about adding prestige classes, or just using a fighter. This was all about testing how well a Monk/Paladin character like Miko could actually work in a game. Upon testing, the answer is, it really works better then I thought it would. It is far from ideal, but it is no bard to be sure. XP (Sorry Elan)

[Goatman_Ted]

Let us take a look at a few monsters shall we?
I like how you can only break 2 DRs in your sample of 5.
When it says "and" it means "and."

But that doesn't mean your case for the character hasn't been misrepresented:
As soon as you hit level 15 this, like all melee characters, was permanently transformed into a giant or something with the Polymorph Any Object spell.
Your damage output suddenly sucks much less.

And if you want your character to be taken seriously, get some Strength/Constitution/Wisdom/Charisma boosters.
And swap Deflect Arrows for Power Attack.

[SparkMandriller]

Balor. DR 15/Cold Iron and good. Okay, got that covered.

Nightcrawler. DR 15/Silver and Magic. Pfft.

Where are you getting Cold Iron/Silver from? Am I missing something here?


SparkMandriller: I rush ahead with my 50 foot speed, and since my Initiative is so high, I tend to move first. If we had a chance to buff first, I'll usually have magic weapon, Iron Body, and Enlarge Person on myself. I rush in, and hit anything I think I could hurt. If not, I'll grapple. With the bonuses from the various buffs, the grapple goes up nicely. And with my AC, chances are the Attack of opportunity will be useless against me.

1. So how do you protect your friends if you face more than one guy at a time?
2. Doesn't Iron Body only work on the person who cast it?
3. Doesn't Iron Body kill your speed, anyway, ruining your strategy?
4. If I added the bonuses properly (There's a good chance I didn't, though!), your character still seems to have a much lower grapple mod than most high CR encounters. So, you don't seem to be able to do anything to them. So, uh.


I dunno, I'm not very good at 3.5, I'm probably missing something obvious. I should go to sleep. In fact, I will go to sleep. Starting right now.

[ChrisDemilich]

I like how you can only break 2 DRs in your sample of 5.
When it says "and" it means "and."

But that doesn't mean your case for the character hasn't been misrepresented:
As soon as you hit level 15 this, like all melee characters, was permanently transformed into a giant or something with the Polymorph Any Object spell.
Your damage output suddenly sucks much less.

And if you want your character to be taken seriously, get some Strength/Constitution/Wisdom/Charisma boosters.
And swap Deflect Arrows for Power Attack.

Ahh. Yes, you are right. I completely missed that. I do not usually pay attention to DR, since I rarely melee.

On the other hand, I am not used to Either Paladins, or monks. I was just curious whether they could mix well.

I usually go Sorcerer/Archmage, and blast everything to bits.

[ChrisDemilich]

Where are you getting Cold Iron/Silver from? Am I missing something here?



1. So how do you protect your friends if you face more than one guy at a time?
2. Doesn't Iron Body only work on the person who cast it?
3. Doesn't Iron Body kill your speed, anyway, ruining your strategy?
4. If I added the bonuses properly (There's a good chance I didn't, though!), your character still seems to have a much lower grapple mod than most high CR encounters. So, you don't seem to be able to do anything to them. So, uh.


I dunno, I'm not very good at 3.5, I'm probably missing something obvious. I should go to sleep. In fact, I will go to sleep. Starting right now.

Let me put it this way.. I have 2 archmages in my party. One wizard/archmage, one sorcerer/archmage. Both have maximized fireballs set as spell like abilities twice per day. Both can cast them as any other element they want. We have a high level druid backing us up as healer, and summoner. We have a fighter barbarian smashing his way through anything, with a 29 Strength. If i slow up the encounter for 2 rounds, it will be ended. We've one turned an adult green dragon. Edit: Sorry, not adult. Old. I get dragons ages mixed up. I think many people do.

Also, yes you were right about stoneskin. I am not sure why I thought it affected others. Either way, there are better buffs that could be used. Honestly, I never considered polymorphing into a giant. That could be kick ass.

My function is make sure the casters do not have to rely on concentration checks. Paladin Monk works as excellent support for a damage dealing party.

[Haven]

My function is make sure the casters do not have to rely on concentration checks. Paladin Monk works as excellent support for a damage dealing party.

I'm not clear on how you're doing that, though. What good reason would anything have to attack you over the casters?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My function is make sure the casters do not have to rely on concentration checks. Paladin Monk works as excellent support for a damage dealing party.If a Spellcaster fails Conc on a 1 past level 13, they deserve what they get.

And honestly, how do you stop enemies? You run forward, hit them for 30 damage. They take the 30 damage, move away, taking an AoO, and hit the spellcaster who just dropped 200 damage on them. If they have Int 2(level of a Wolf), that's the only smart action.

[Talic]

Avoiding attacks just means you're safe.

Not the party. Want to keep the party safe? Wizard X / IotSV 7 /ACM X

Want to stop people? Stand Still tripper.

As for Bull's Str + Iron Body + Enlarge Person. Fine. Assume you got that.

Now tell me what the odds are to trip the following:

Ancient Red Dragon
Storm Giant
Titan
Ghost
Dread Wraith
Fullcaster 20, who has had 3 rounds worth of buffing.

Really, if you're going to assume that you've got a pocket mage on "keep the underachiever alive" duty... Be in your own pocket. Go Psywar, and grow 2 sizes with enlarge.

[ChrisDemilich]

I'm not clear on how you're doing that, though. What good reason would anything have to attack you over the casters?

If I am rushing ahead to meet an enemy, why would they not deal with the first threat they face? Even if they did decide to bypass me, I'd get an attack of opportunity.

Yeah, that means nothing, the damage is pathetic.

But 30 feet behind me is a raging barbarian fighter with a +5 Vorpal sword. I turn back, and attack them from behind, and for going past me, he gets to be flanked. Smite evils from behind, and huge attacks from the front. Then a fireball to end it(Using mastery of shaping to leave me and the fighter safe.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If I am rushing ahead to meet an enemy, why would they not deal with the first threat they face? Even if they did decide to bypass me, I'd get an attack of opportunity. Because you are unarmed, unarmored, and non-magical. You look like a commoner.
Yeah, that means nothing, the damage is pathetic.

But 30 feet behind me is a raging barbarian fighter with a +5 Vorpal sword. I turn back, and attack them from behind, and for going past me, he gets to be flanked. Smite evils from behind, and huge attacks from the front. Then a fireball to end it(Using mastery of shaping to leave me and the fighter safe.But why would they face the Fighter either? They just, you know, go around him, then hit the casters. Reduce your offense, then take care of the guys with 300+HP.

[Talic]

If I am rushing ahead to meet an enemy, why would they not deal with the first threat they face? Even if they did decide to bypass me, I'd get an attack of opportunity.

Yeah, that means nothing, the damage is pathetic.

But 30 feet behind me is a raging barbarian fighter with a +5 Vorpal sword. I turn back, and attack them from behind, and for going past me, he gets to be flanked. Smite evils from behind, and huge attacks from the front. Then a fireball to end it(Using mastery of shaping to leave me and the fighter safe.

Or that dominate that you pass on a 7?

The barbarian with a vorpal sword needs a 19 on. Now you're the flanked one, when it charges you for 300 damage.

Or the casters get eaten by your friend...

And when it's done, and it's just the two of you? It'll trade hits with you, and thanks to DR, win the exchange.

[Ceaon]

ChrisDemilich, compared to your group's previous characters, this might very well be a very optimized character. Well done.
But as for actual (online) optimization, you and your friends just don't come close. Monks? Paladins? Blaster wizards? Fighters? These things are some of the worst in terms of optimization.
That's not bad though. As long as you and your friends enjoy the game and the level of optimization you play, you're doing a great job - being far more optimized than the other players would just ruin their fun.
But before you say anything more about how this build is incredibly awesome, let me tell you: it's fun, it's creative, but it's weak in comparison to some of the more optimized builds out here.

A little note: DR/magic and good means a monster resists any attack not made by a magic and good weapon or attack.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But before you say anything more about how this build is incredibly awesome, let me tell you: it's fun, it's creative, but it's weak in comparison to some of the more optimized builds out here.I'm considering making an Animal Companion on this power level, just to see if I can get the defenses without more than 1/4th WBL.

[Talic]

Let's compare control methods:

Monk/paladin running up, hitting for 20 after DR, and provoking an AOO.
vs
Wizard: Solid Fog, Forcecage, a dozen other spells.
vs
Barbarian: Full attack Charge pounce for 300 damage.
vs
Fighter/Psywar: Stand Still/Combat reflexes + 30 damage hits.

Monk: Minimal threat, hard to hurt, ignored.
Wizard: Severe movement hampering, hard to hurt, priority
Barbarian: Right in monster's face, knocked 40% of the tarrasque's hp off in one round. Priority.
Fighter: Movement Preventing. Complete lockdown. Can't leave until it's dealt with. Priority.

[ChrisDemilich]

Blah. Well, I'll stick to my evil mages.

[Philistine]

Ahh. Yes, you are right. I completely missed that. I do not usually pay attention to DR, since I rarely melee.

On the other hand, I am not used to Either Paladins, or monks. I was just curious whether they could mix well.

I usually go Sorcerer/Archmage, and blast everything to bits.

And now you have your answer: they don't. They really, really don't. Her defenses are only okay, and they don't do anything for any party member other than herself. Her offense is essentially nonexistant. At best, the character as laid out is a minor annoyance to a CR-equivalent opponent - something to be ignored until the real threats have been taken care of, then smacked down with prejudice.

[Talic]

In Gestalt, they can. But Swordsage/Paladin works better.

[Haven]

And now you have your answer: they don't. They really, really don't. Her defenses are only okay, and they don't do anything for any party member other than herself. Her offense is essentially nonexistant. At best, the character as laid out is a minor annoyance to a CR-equivalent opponent - something to be ignored until the real threats have been taken care of, then smacked down with prejudice.

I dunno, Epinephrine's post on the last page, and the subsequent replies, actually makes it seem pretty compelling. Not exactly optimal, but it seems like it would be kinda fun nonetheless. Especially the possibilities with VoP, Serenity and Intuitive Attack.

[Philistine]

Even in Gestalt it's a combination of two notoriously MAD classes that need to prioritize different sets of attributes, and whose class abilities don't really play well together. It can work, but without extensive splatbooking I don't see it ever even reaching "average."

[Gorbash]

Also, when you're making an optimized character, you can't assume that Wizard will regularly spend his spell slots on buffing you, let alone 8th lvl slots (assuming that he could cast Iron Body on you) which are made to win encounters and certainly not to improve characters who are bad to less than ok. First think what can you do all by yourself, then if you do get buffed, that's just a bonus. Your monk/paladin can't do much by himself on those levels and you have the hard proof presented to you by pitting him against some basic, core MM monsters. When you go outside of core and try to do something against an NPC with class levels... You're in trouble.


Not exactly optimal, but it seems like it would be kinda fun nonetheless.

Except we're not discussing the fun factor of this character (since that's subjective, I wouldn't be caught dead playing a character like this, since I hate relying on others to be able to do something and being dead weight, for example), we're discussing what can he do. And the answer is, on those levels, next to nothing.