Movie Stunts 4th ed

[HMS Invincible]

Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.

2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.

3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.

Please tell me what bonuses if any that you would give, penalties, and whether or not you would encourage his behavior/line of thought.

I initially ruled that it was the craziest thing in the world for any of these ideas to make any sense and this wasn't a movie. After the session was over, I changed my mind and said idea 2 was usable as a jerry-rigged charge attack with an athletics/acrobatics checked tagged on. Penalty is he falls prone and ends his turn.
Idea 3 sounds ok, a bit cliched, maybe acrobatics check and then a strength check to run up a dragon for sneak attack or bonus damage? Penalty is an OA and falling prone with an angry dragon.
Idea 1 just sounds abusive and I would not let his get away with ever. Except against lvl 1 minions, If I feel generous.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.

2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.

3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.

Please tell me what bonuses if any that you would give, penalties, and whether or not you would encourage his behavior/line of thought.

I initially ruled that it was the craziest thing in the world for any of these ideas to make any sense and this wasn't a movie. After the session was over, I changed my mind and said idea 2 was usable as a jerry-rigged charge attack with an athletics/acrobatics checked tagged on. Penalty is he falls prone and ends his turn.
Idea 3 sounds ok, a bit cliched, maybe acrobatics check and then a strength check to run up a dragon for sneak attack or bonus damage? Penalty is an OA and falling prone with an angry dragon.
Idea 1 just sounds abusive and I would not let his get away with ever. Except against lvl 1 minions, If I feel generous.

1 > Flavourful charge attack.

2 > Move and attack. With Flavour.

3 > Drop and attack. Dragging dagger would likely be caught on the dragon's scales, but if he did enough damage, I'd call it a flavoured up attack.

[Weimann]

Commenting on how to mechanically handle these things is beyond my capacity, since I'm not familiar with DnD. Instead, some comments on wether to allow said maneuvers.

1) This one seems pretty impossible. Run "on your knees" would kind of ruin the whole "running" thing, unless you run on all fours, and even then it'd be much slower and not pack any momentum. As for being below the enemy's vision range, it's work if there actually was something to hide behind, like bushes or stuff. I'd tell him that he can't "charge" but would get a stealth roll with maybe some bonuses.

2) This one seems completely possible. If the wallrun was in order to bypass a hindrance such as a fence or a wall, a roll of some kind might be required. If he just wanted to be flashy, I don't see a reason for a roll. Let them have fun.

3) It's definately a very cool move. One could argue that his dagger might get stuck on the scales, and thus a strength check might be appropriate for determining if he manages to slice through them or if his dagger gets stuck. Possibly, one could also allow it if the damage rolled was big enough.

[hewhosaysfish]

3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.


:smallconfused:
Running up the dragon's body (presumably using his feet), while dragging his dagger (presumably held in his hands) which he has just stuck in the dragon's body (which is under his feet)....
So is he running while bent double, with his ass sticking in the air, or waddling along with his knees bent. Or maybe the dagger-blade is 3 feet long?

The other two I might assign some small mechanical bonus to, depending on what the circumstances because they're cool descriptions and I'd want to encourage cool description.

But this dragon stunt doesn't seem cool to me because I can't visualise it properly. The player would have to describe it to me in such a way that I could imagine his character doing it and looking cool (as opposed to absurd) .

[V'icternus]

Well, for #2, I would give a +1 (per tier) to the attack made at the end of the move, but have it require an Acrobatics check. (It's not like just any hero can do that, so it's not a basic move. I mean, imagine a Warlord in Plate armour doing backflips.) A rogue, though, should easily be able to pass an Acrobatics check, unless they roll badly, in which case they'd fall prone next to the wall they attemtped to run along. This means bad guys get to attack them, and their friends can laugh at them for trying to get all Matrix on 'em.

#1 is simple. If you have concealment (because you can't avoid an enemy's sight when he's already seen you), you charge and attack. (Making the neccesary Stealth check on the way, with the usual penalty for running (-10)) Fail the Stealth check, and you get OA'd because you weren't ready for it, succeed and you knock your target prone on a hit.

#3, uh...

Well, the Dragon'd have to be massive. At least a 4x4 base (and that's being generous).

I'd have one move action be to jump on the dragon (Acrobatics check), on Standard action to attack (If you miss, you fall off and fall prone), and on your next turn, a full action attack that ignores AC. (Auto-hit)

It'd be risky, but would pay off.

Of course, none of this can be done without a decent Acrobatics score, but if you don't have a decent Acrobatics score, you can't be Acrobatic.

Just my opinion, feel free to twist some things around (and remember to add flavour!)

[Artanis]

Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.

2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.

3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.

Please tell me what bonuses if any that you would give, penalties, and whether or not you would encourage his behavior/line of thought.

I initially ruled that it was the craziest thing in the world for any of these ideas to make any sense and this wasn't a movie. After the session was over, I changed my mind and said idea 2 was usable as a jerry-rigged charge attack with an athletics/acrobatics checked tagged on. Penalty is he falls prone and ends his turn.
Idea 3 sounds ok, a bit cliched, maybe acrobatics check and then a strength check to run up a dragon for sneak attack or bonus damage? Penalty is an OA and falling prone with an angry dragon.
Idea 1 just sounds abusive and I would not let his get away with ever. Except against lvl 1 minions, If I feel generous.
I'd encourage this sort of thing since it's the sort of stuff that really livens up a campaign. But only do it if they keep it original: if they try the same thing over and over, don't give them bonuses for it. For your particular situations:

1) Flavorful charge attack, using the fixed Stealth rules for staying hidden while moving to give him a chance to make the attack itself as though he were stealthed when he does so.

2) Acrobatics check to perform a stunt, PHB 80

3) Attack gets CA, and an Acrobatics stunt check for the "run along his body" part to wind up where he intends to go.

[Hal]

Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.

2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.

3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.


1. This is a dressed up charge attack. No special bonuses.

2. Acrobatics check DC 20 (ish). Success: Rogue is charging against the target, but ignores difficult terrain or enemy units. Still subject to AoO. Failure: Remains in original square. Usable once per encounter.

3. Falling on an enemy: Charging (normal bonuses). If it's a long fall, acrobatics check to reduce falling damage as normal. The second part would be a normal attack given a nice description. No special bonuses. Also, I don't remember if there are rules for riding on a larger monster (hasn't come up yet in any of my games), but if there aren't then I'd say the Rogue has to maintain a grab each round as well.

[Thajocoth]

"I want to run along the wall." To me, this is a running jump (you need two squares of being on the ground first), however it uses acrobatics instead of athletics as he's using his momentum to keep his balance. I'd also modify the DC: +0 for a wall that has a slight bit of a ledge, +2 for a rough wall, +5 for a smooth one.

Sliding on his knees? I would say "That's going to hurt. You can do it, but you'll take 1d6 damage from scraping your knees along the floor in addition to making an acrobatics check. If successful, it's a charge attack with CA. If unsuccessful, it's a charge attack without CA, and the enemy gets an AO. Either way, you're prone afterward." If they have something to kneel onto, I'd decrease the DC a little and remove the 1d6 damage.

Jump onto and attack the dragon: Jumping charging grab attack. So they have to make a jump, it counts as a charge, and if they hit, they get an acrobatics check for balance to hold on. This uses all their actions. The dragon can still move, and doing so will bring the player along. The dragon can spend a move to try to shake him off (Acro vs Ref).

Run along the dragon, slicing it... This is just an attack with flavor. First, balance check to maintain holding onto it. (Since you're grabbing on top of it.) If failed, fall off and prone adjacent to it. If a little better than failure, the player can either drop off and not land prone, and still get an attack, or maintain their grip without attacking this turn. If successful, just pick an attack ability and use it.

Those would be my responses. Other GM responses may vary.

[Ninetail]

Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.


I'm not quite picturing this... I assume he was stealthed and wants to avoid being seen while he approaches? In that case, I'd allow a Stealth check with the usual penalties for movement. If he succeeds, he keeps CA for the charge attack. If he fails, he doesn't get CA, but he can still make the charge attack.

If he's not already hidden, then the enemies have already seen him, and can easily keep an eye on him. He can still pull this maneuver, but it's just a standard charge with a little flavor.



2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.


Athletics check. If he succeeds, he runs along the wall, avoiding whatever nastiness is on the floor. If he fails, he has to move along the floor, but he can stop short before running into said nastiness if he wants to.

If the floor is flat -- no difficult terrain, no traps, no nastiness -- then I don't bother to make him roll, because it's just flavor then. No extra benefit, no need for a skill check.



3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger.


Assuming the dragon is big enough, the jump is just movement. I might require an Acrobatics check to grab hold/balance, especially if the dragon is moving. The initial stab is just an attack, but I would award bonus damage dice. A little bonus damage if I rule no skill check or OA is involved, more if I rule one is, still more if I rule both are.

Running up the body while dragging his dagger? I don't really see that happening... a dagger blade is awfully short. Now, if he were using a longsword, I'd let that be his next attack action (on his next turn, or with an action point). I'd give it an attack bonus (+4, maybe), with low "improvised attack" damage per DMG p. 42, plus some amount of ongoing damage (save ends).



Please tell me what bonuses if any that you would give, penalties, and whether or not you would encourage his behavior/line of thought.


I'd absolutely encourage it. I wouldn't give die-roll penalties of any sort, because I want my players to do these kinds of things. I might call for skill checks to succeed -- but failure would not mean a completely wasted action, and success would mean a significant benefit. The rogue could be using those actions to just use his powers in a boring predictable way, so he should get at least as much benefit from doing something spontaneous and exciting, provided it's possible at all. (I don't see the dagger-dragging thing as possible, for instance -- if he's standing up and running along the dragon's back, the dagger's blade is too short to be planted in that same back.)

If a check is called for and failed, there could be consequences to that, but I would keep them light. It's a bad idea to make players feel that taking creative actions is a poorer choice than simply standing and swinging. Creative actions lead to more interesting combats and should be rewarded. In most cases, the "penalty" I'd assess would be that the character has to function as normal -- if he fails the wall-run, he can't ignore the difficult terrain. If a failure would lead to worse-than-normal consequences (jumping onto the back of the flying dragon and fumbling the balance check means a nasty fall), then success has to be that much better than normal. Anything less is just unfair.

Also, the riskier and more cinematic an improvised action is, the greater its effect should be, IMO. Jumping down onto the dragon's back and driving the dagger in deep should have a lot more impact than standing on the ground and stabbing the dragon's ankle. That's why I'd give the rogue extra damage.



I initially ruled that it was the craziest thing in the world for any of these ideas to make any sense and this wasn't a movie. After the session was over, I changed my mind and said idea 2 was usable as a jerry-rigged charge attack with an athletics/acrobatics checked tagged on. Penalty is he falls prone and ends his turn.
Idea 3 sounds ok, a bit cliched, maybe acrobatics check and then a strength check to run up a dragon for sneak attack or bonus damage? Penalty is an OA and falling prone with an angry dragon.
Idea 1 just sounds abusive and I would not let his get away with ever. Except against lvl 1 minions, If I feel generous.

See, I think you're making a mistake. "This wasn't a movie"? It's your game, of course, but are you absolutely sure that this isn't the kind of thing you want going on? This is the kind of larger-than-life event that a lot of players love to act out.

If you're running a grittier campaign, that's one thing... but in that case, it seems as if your rogue's player isn't aware of that, and has a more swashbuckling/wuxia style of game in mind. If this is the case, you should have a little talk with your players.

[Numinous]

For me, the question for all of these is: "What advantage do you get by doing it this way".

If the answer is "to look cool", then my answer would be that they're all normal attacks - move + attack, or charge, as the player wishes.


Tell me how you rule this:
1. Rogue wants to run at the enemy sliding on his knees, "below the enemies vision", when he attacks.

Assuming he's trying to avoid an Opportunity Attack: I'd make it an Acrobatics check against a hard DC. Failure means he's prone at the end of his move. I'd lay out these rules and let him change his mind about attempting it.

If he's trying to get an advantage on the attack more than just a +1 from a charge: that's what powers are for. If it sounded really cool, I might allow a moderate DC Athletics check for a +2 to hit (no penalty for failure), but I'd never allow Combat Advantage just from a stunt.


2. Lvl 6 rogue wants to wallrun and attack an enemy.

Pretty much the same as 1 - it depends what he's trying to do.


3. Rogue is above a young dragon, and he wishes to jump on it to attack it. Then, he wishes to stab the dragon, and then run up the body while dragging his dagger..

Pretty much as above, but I'd say that he needs to use a daily attack to match the severity of his intent.

Chris

[HMS Invincible]

Hmm, Well I do like swashbuckly/dashing swordsman type actions but the rogue's ideas seem stupid sometimes or unnecessarily extravagant. Oh, I get it, I seem to have a bias against the person playing the rogue.

There's only one answer to biased thinking, and that is written guidelines.

For all proposed stunts, risk=reward. I would add a bonus for coolness but anything coming from the rogue isn't as cool so I won't bother.
Make Normal attacks with extra flavor when prompted by PC who suggest no risk stunts.
The benefits of the stunt must be better than using an at-will power.
Stunt must be original else it loses effectiveness. I'll just judge this by how often they use the same stunts.


The wall running idea isn't a bad one. You can ignore difficult terrain or other dangerous things on the ground and it is very situational. I just dislike it because his explanation on why it gives him a bonus was "they won't be expecting me to run on the wall." and he wanted to be stylish. The guy plays Devil May Cry too much. :smallsigh:

Sliding in below the enemies expected field of vision was stretching my suspension of disbelief. However, I should have realized it was just like a stealth check while charging.
Wait, can't a rogue just do this normally by walking up to the guy while making a stealth check?

The dragon stunt just annoyed me because we just saw FF7, advent children. The dragon was a Young Adult Green Dragon (Large size, I think the size of a large horse) and he wanted to run up it like it was bahamut or something. I didn't even think about his puny little dagger and how he was suppose to slice the dragon up.


For me, the question for all of these is: "What advantage do you get by doing it this way".

If the answer is "to look cool", then my answer would be that they're all normal attacks - move + attack, or charge, as the player wishes.
Chris
Good point, I should include this.

[Artanis]

Sliding in below the enemies expected field of vision was stretching my suspension of disbelief. However, I should have realized it was just like a stealth check while charging.
Wait, can't a rogue just do this normally by walking up to the guy while making a stealth check?
Largely, yes. The benefit of a Charge attack is that it lets you move again (i.e. assuming 6 speed, move+attack lets you stab a guy 7 away from where you start while move+charge lets you stab a guy 13 away from where you start) and that you get +1 to the attack roll. It's important to note that charging does not provoke an OA from the target (unless it has reach and threatening reach, of course)



The dragon stunt just annoyed me because we just saw FF7, advent children. The dragon was a Young Adult Green Dragon (Large size, I think the size of a large horse) and he wanted to run up it like it was bahamut or something. I didn't even think about his puny little dagger and how he was suppose to slice the dragon up.
Oh, Large size? That definitely changes things, because I thought you were talking about one of those ridiculously big ones with teeth the size of a horse :smalltongue:.

But yeah, unless he's the size of a rat or something, he ain't gonna "run along it" on something that's merely Large. Maybe stabbing right before kicking off of it (elaborated below)*. In any case, I'd remind him that it's only the size of a horse, and if he changes it to accomidate that fact, give him a modified version of my earlier answer for #3.

The dagger thing doesn't bother me though: it's a dragon, so it's plausable that there'd be somewhere that he can be with something sticking up to stab. Like if you're on its back, you can reach a wing that's raised up far enough into the air, or cut it on the nose as it turns its head around or something.


*Elaboration:

You know in movies when somebody's being chased, and he runs to a wall, which he then backflips off of and winds up behind the persuer? Something like that, only using a Large dragon instead of a wall.