Wouldn't that kill Redcloak? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

[TS] Shadow

2009-05-25, 10:06 AM

If this was covered in the discussion thread, I apologize. I really can't read those; the topics go all over the place and it keeps updating every five seconds.

Anyway, wouldn't stabbing a sharp metal pole through someone's eye kill them in D&D? I'll concede that Redcloak probably has good "defense" stats (I don't know which ones would be used to protect from this kind of thing) but O-Chul is a Fighter/Paladin. He has to have a good strengh stat. And with the Smite Evil added on (can someone tell me what the specifically does?) the damage must have been a lot, unless if he rolled a 4 or something. But even still, that sort of blow could have very well reached the brain, killing Redcloak instantly.

I know that the power of the plot is the driving force that saved Redcloak, but in a normal D&D 3.5 game, would Redcloak still live?

Optimystik

2009-05-25, 10:09 AM

It just didn't go in very far. You're overthinking it. :smalltongue:

DwarvenExodus

2009-05-25, 10:11 AM

I'd say it was a critical hit (Targeted)
Redcloak Probably would have survived.

Douglas

2009-05-25, 10:11 AM

Yes, he would still be alive. D&D rules do not usually care where you hit someone on the body. All that matters is how much damage you do and how many hit points the target has. O'chul's attack was a critical hit with a Smite Evil (which adds more damage equal to his paladin level, which would then have been doubled or tripled by the crit along with the rest of the damage), and purely for descriptive and possibly plot purposes that was shown as a hit to the eye. It was a lot of damage, but not enough to bring Redcloak's hit points to 0, thus he is still alive despite whatever cosmetic damage he may have received.

The Wanderer

2009-05-25, 10:12 AM

Shadow;6151753']If this was covered in the discussion thread, I apologize. I really can't read those; the topics go all over the place and it keeps updating every five seconds.

Anyway, wouldn't stabbing a sharp metal pole through someone's eye kill them in D&D? I'll concede that Redcloak probably has good "defense" stats (I don't know which ones would be used to protect from this kind of thing) but O-Chul is a Fighter/Paladin. He has to have a good strengh stat. And with the Smite Evil added on (can someone tell me what the specifically does?) the damage must have been a lot, unless if he rolled a 4 or something. But even still, that sort of blow could have very well reached the brain, killing Redcloak instantly.

I know that the power of the plot is the driving force that saved Redcloak, but in a normal D&D 3.5 game, would Redcloak still live?

Impaling someone with a greatsword is also usually fatal to someone. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) However, in D&D, as long as you have 1 HP left, you can still move around and do whatever you would normally do. The comic works on the same premise.

pasko77

2009-05-25, 10:15 AM

Shadow;6151753']
I know that the power of the plot is the driving force that saved Redcloak, but in a normal D&D 3.5 game, would Redcloak still live?

Yes he would.
Earlier we see Tsukiko hit with three arrows by Haley, one of which hit her IN THE HEAD, yet she didn't die.
It is just an in comic representation on how it is impossible to kill high level characters with one or two hits.

Snake-Aes

2009-05-25, 10:19 AM

Shadow;6151753']I
I know that the power of the plot is the driving force that saved Redcloak, but in a normal D&D 3.5 game, would Redcloak still live?

http://sob.apotheon.org/img/hilevel/hp.jpg
http://i.techrepublic.com.com/blogs/HitPoints.jpg

As said before, D&D doesn't care much about that. Characters typically shrug off a fire on their face, or falling off a three-story building("c'mon, that's just 4d6 damage")

Carnivorous_Bea

2009-05-25, 10:21 AM

If it penetrated to the brain, yes. Otherwise, it would just blind him.

(Having one eye damaged that badly temporarily blinds the other eye as well -- the pain signals being sent back by the optic nerve are so overwhelming that the brain can't process the other eye's input, because it can't 'sort it out' of the pain signal. It comes back fairly fast, but he'd be totally blind for several hours, anyway.)

Of course, he would also be writhing helplessly on the ground in agony in reality, not discoursing with O-Chul, so it's really moot -- just D&D stuff, really. :smallbiggrin: Like the rest of the stuff where there are injuries all over the place but the character doesn't stop functioning. :smallwink:

[TS] Shadow

2009-05-25, 10:23 AM

OK, thanks everybody; I know now. (And knowing is half the battle!) G.I. JOE!

Hydro Globus

2009-05-25, 10:52 AM

Shadow;6151753']And with the Smite Evil added on (can someone tell me what the specifically does?) ...

The only question not answered already: It adds +[level] to damage (and +[CHR] to the "to hit" roll if positive, but that isn't the case for O-chul.)

shadzar

2009-05-25, 11:04 AM

A little late to the party, but a "called shot" could just impair someone to defeat them without killing them in a way to incapacitate them. I think 3rd calls it subdual damage?

Also as noted that injury to body parts was never really lethal except in the case of a vorpal blade connecting with someone's neck.

HP are not really ever represented as physical damage, unless you have a good DM.

RC probably took average damage from an improvised weapon and/or smite evil ability. Other than that he lost his eye due to narrative control on part of the "DM" (Rich) or the player with something akin to a called shot (Rich again).

:smallwink:

MagMagus

2009-05-25, 11:15 AM

Also keep in mind that Redcloak is a high cleric of the Dark One. He was probably granted unnatural toughness.

rokar4life

2009-05-25, 12:50 PM

clearly you've never met magix the limbless, he was a powerful wizard until his arms and legs got cut off, and he had to start using the still spell meta magic, so he couldn't cast 9th level =(

Omegonthesane

2009-05-25, 01:04 PM

clearly you've never met magix the limbless, he was a powerful wizard until his arms and legs got cut off, and he had to start using the still spell meta magic, so he couldn't cast 9th level =(

3 Epic feats would sort that out - Automatic Still Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Automatic Still Spell. Or he could retrain as a Psion in the worst case.

factotum

2009-05-25, 01:18 PM

Even in real life a wound like that probably wouldn't kill somebody--there's a large chunk of bone right behind the eye, and O-Chul's weapon is clearly somewhat blunt, so the only way it's going to go right through to the brain is if it smashes through the skull. I mean, O-Chul is seriously badass, but badass enough to punch a hole in someone's skull using an iron bar?

Kornaki

2009-05-25, 01:51 PM

A little late to the party, but a "called shot" could just impair someone to defeat them without killing them in a way to incapacitate them. I think 3rd calls it subdual damage?

Subdual damage is also known as non-lethal damage, it's when you're trying to knock someone out rather than kill them outright. Haley hitting someone over the head with a sap is probably subdual damage (not the similarities with the word 'subdue'). This? Not so much.

A called shot is when you attempt to hit a specific body part. Depending on the DM this can have repurcussions, for example losing an eye giving you a minus to attack rolls and spot checks. Taking out both of someone's eye would be a good way to incapacitate them without killing them, but it's a different way of doing it than subdual damage

Edwin

2009-05-25, 02:00 PM

3 Epic feats would sort that out - Automatic Still Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Automatic Still Spell. Or he could retrain as a Psion in the worst case.

Or he could just spring for a few metamagic reduction feats and call it a day.

Time Stop is like the Jericho Missile - you only have to fire it once!

Berserk Monk

2009-05-25, 03:12 PM

daggaz

2009-05-25, 04:00 PM

Shadow;6151838']OK, thanks everybody; I know now. (And knowing is half the battle!) G.I. JOE!

..the other half is violence. Just sayin.

[TS] Shadow

2009-05-25, 04:16 PM

Shouldn't this kill...
O-Chul? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)
Belkar? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html)
Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)
Haley? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)

Well, both Elan and Haley were wearing armor, and were already at close to full health. And the Chuck Norris/O-Chul comparison has already been established. I guess you've got it right with Belkar, but then again, he's a lucky bastard.

shadzar

2009-05-25, 04:44 PM

Subdual damage is also known as non-lethal damage, it's when you're trying to knock someone out rather than kill them outright. Haley hitting someone over the head with a sap is probably subdual damage (not the similarities with the word 'subdue'). This? Not so much.

A called shot is when you attempt to hit a specific body part. Depending on the DM this can have repurcussions, for example losing an eye giving you a minus to attack rolls and spot checks. Taking out both of someone's eye would be a good way to incapacitate them without killing them, but it's a different way of doing it than subdual damage

Smite evil cannot do subdual damage?

Taking out a single eye can incapacitate someone as well.

I am sure O'Chul tried to kill RC, but maybe made a critical failure, but got lucky enough to still hit him in the eye because of the smite evil.

So maybe has the critical wrong and O'Chul failed, because he did and RC lives. Or the called shot was to removed the holy symbol from RC which he scored a critical and passed and RC lost his holy symbol and the eye part was just icing on O'Chul's cake.

:mitd: Can I have some cake too?
:xykon: No, and get back in the box!

Haarkla

2009-05-25, 05:26 PM

A 15th+ level cleric is almost superhuman.

Redcloak can better be compared with Moses than any ordinary human.

Moriarty

2009-05-25, 05:45 PM

Shouldn't this kill...
O-Chul? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)
Belkar? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html)
Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)
Haley? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)

well it did drop Haley and Elan into negative hitpoints, so without interference they would have bleeded to death.

Haven

2009-05-25, 05:50 PM

I am sure O'Chul tried to kill RC, but maybe made a critical failure, but got lucky enough to still hit him in the eye because of the smite evil.

If he'd made a critical failure, he'd have missed. And possibly slipped and impaled himself ("friggin' hilarious").

shadzar

2009-05-25, 06:11 PM

If he'd made a critical failure, he'd have missed. And possibly slipped and impaled himself ("friggin' hilarious").

But didn't he? Did he try to stab him in the eye, or did his just miss?

I see Ahab yelling "I stabbeth thee white whale!", but calmly speaking Smite Evil.

And yet he still didn't finish the job.

He got in two attacks after disintegrate and prior to WoR, and yet RC still lives, just missing an eye and his holy symbol.

If it was a critical in his favor he should have stabebed RC in the throat so he could not pray for any more spells to be cast.

We may never know his true intentions in that moment, only the result of them. And those are all yet to be learned. :smallwink:

Heliomance

2009-05-25, 07:12 PM

D&D doesn't work that way. Clearly, he simply scored a particularly vicious critical - perhaps two nat. 20s in a row - and the DM adjudicated that Redcloak lost his eye. The attack to the phylactery - which O-Chul thought was a holy symbol - was either a disarm or a sunder attack.

Dagren

2009-05-25, 07:38 PM

Haven

2009-05-25, 07:59 PM

But didn't he? Did he try to stab him in the eye, or did his just miss?

I see Ahab yelling "I stabbeth thee white whale!", but calmly speaking Smite Evil.

And yet he still didn't finish the job.

He got in two attacks after disintegrate and prior to WoR, and yet RC still lives, just missing an eye and his holy symbol.

If it was a critical in his favor he should have stabebed RC in the throat so he could not pray for any more spells to be cast.

We may never know his true intentions in that moment, only the result of them. And those are all yet to be learned. :smallwink:

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but:

If he fumbled, he would have missed. If he missed, he wouldn't have done damage.

He pretty obviously did damage, so he didn't miss, so he didn't fumble.

This is not a complicated thing.

shadzar

2009-05-25, 08:34 PM

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but:

If he fumbled, he would have missed. If he missed, he wouldn't have done damage.

He pretty obviously did damage, so he didn't miss, so he didn't fumble.

This is not a complicated thing.

What is to say he didn't miss? He could have been aiming for the holy symbol to begin with and missed and then used smite evil instead. Afterwards he went back for his true target the amulet. Then to prevent RC from doing anything to recover it he went to attack him directly.

It was all part of O'Chul's master plan to free MitD from subjugation. He just failed to get the amulet first, and got some bonus of the spectacular failure by being in range to pull off the smite evil as a readied action before RC could take another action.

:smallwink:

R. Malcovitch

2009-05-25, 09:00 PM

Dagren

2009-05-25, 09:19 PM

You know even in a real world damage system a pole through the eye wouldn't necessarily kill. As long as the pole didn't penetrate the skull the subject would be blinded, and likely overwhelmed by shock/pain, but fully functional as long as he/she can overcome said pain.

Considering O-Chul's pole isn't sharpened beyond the jagged edge it would have from the break a non-fatal hit is understandable.True, but aren't there a load of major blood vessels in the head? I would have expected something like that to cause some extremely severe bleeding personally. (I didn't do too great at my physiology course back at Uni though, so I could well be wrong)

Superglucose

2009-05-25, 09:50 PM

Well yeah you'd die eventually but I think the point was you at least stood a shot of surviving :smallwink:

Simanos

2009-05-26, 06:37 AM

True, but aren't there a load of major blood vessels in the head? I would have expected something like that to cause some extremely severe bleeding personally. (I didn't do too great at my physiology course back at Uni though, so I could well be wrong)
No, actually a lot of people have survived bars or bullets through the head. Even if half the brain is removed afterwards in the surgery. A sword-blow to the leg has more chance to kill you by bleeding. The head is the toughest part of the body. The eyes are pretty delicate though and the brain is prone to react badly to blunt force.

BTW, there are no called shots in DnD (3). There's only hitpoints. Criticals simply cause the loss of more hitpoints. Special attacks are like trip and disarm, almost never permanent injury. That said many DMs like to invent critical hit tables with specific injuries, but I don't like them.

Lord of the Helms

2009-05-26, 09:46 AM

BTW, there are no called shots in DnD (3). There's only hitpoints. Criticals simply cause the loss of more hitpoints. Special attacks are like trip and disarm, almost never permanent injury. That said many DMs like to invent critical hit tables with specific injuries, but I don't like them.

Neverwinter Nights houseruled a kinda-decent Called Shot feat in (or took it from some non-core source). You could aim for arms or legs at a -4 attack penalty, and success would mean normal damage plus a temporary status effect (lowered AB for arms, lowered dex and movement rate for legs). It's vastly improveable system, but I did like the general mechanic.

BillyJimBoBob

2009-05-26, 10:40 AM

As said before, D&D doesn't care much about that. Characters typically shrug off a fire on their face, or falling off a three-story building("c'mon, that's just 4d6 damage")Before the non-D&D people begin thinking that the game is ridiculous, it should be communicated that HP in D&D have always been described as an abstraction.

The number of HP a character has is not a representation of their physical ability to absorb damage. Rather, it represents luck, skill, fate, etc. This means that the same amount of damage when applied to characters with differing HP totals needs to be described differently within the narrative of the game. You compare the damage taken to the total HP and then describe the impact, rather than looking at the simple numerical amount of damage and describing the impact.

The 1st level Fighter with 10 HP who takes an 8 point hit from a long sword has been sorely wounded. The 10th level Fighter with 80 HP who takes an 8 point hit from a long sword has been barely scratched.

AtomicKitKat

2009-05-26, 11:44 AM

Nowhere in the rules(that I remember) does Smite Evil disallow subdual damage. So a Rogue/Paladin(with the Feat that combines some class abilities) could reasonably use a Sap to Sneak Smite Evil on someone bad in order to knock them out in a single hit.